[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Fullylugged]

This is a little thread drift, but in the past, GP has noted that most people 
do not need a custom bicycle. If one of their sizes fits you, then you don't 
need a custom fit. My Ram is that way. It wouldn't be any different if it was 
custom made. Back when Toyo & Waterford were making frames, RBW was clear that 
he quality was not close, it was the same. When they moved some work to Taiwan, 
they noted again, there was no drop in quality. That move, along with the 
inclusion of partial lugged frames were efforts to keep prices more affordable 
for more people.

As others have noted, paying workers fairly for their work costs money. As 
consumers, cyclists most often prowl the internet for the best deals, LBS be 
damned. Or in this case, RBW. That doesn't help RBW or your LBS to thrive and 
be there when you want it. Steel prices are ticking up a hair, but the big cost 
in a frame is labor. Wages in places like Taiwan and China are rising (as they 
should) and that translates to more cost in a frame. The paint and decals on an 
RBW are nicer than industry average and that is a big part of cost too. 

I go back to something GP wrote years ago. RBW bikes are affordable by someone 
with a job and bicycle priorities. I'm glad I have mine. (A Toyo and a 
Waterford) 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Belopsky]

Probably true enough for 'full time custom builders' - the nice part is 
that this is not true for all custom builders.
Only a few of these things you list are true, others are assumptions and 
just plain false
On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:04:47 AM UTC-6, phil k wrote:
>
> yes, prices went up for a lot of one-man shops as well. most full-time 
> custom builders are starting at $3000-3300.
>
> i do realize that there are builders that can offer it for less than that, 
> but usually they have other streams of income other than building customs, 
> or are not full time, or do not build with high end steel, or have much 
> less experience, etc. etc. even then, a lot of their prices went up as well.
>
> material cost is going up, and it seems to have coincided with true temper 
> pulling itself out of the bicycle tube market and refocusing on gold club 
> market. i doubt labor price is going up much (if at all) for custom 
> builders in the US.
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:56:24 AM UTC-5, Eric wrote:
>>
>> So when I heard this news I was kind of surprised. I was like...didn't 
>> they just raise prices?! 
>>
>> My surprise was akin to hearning my grandma when she learned a cup of 
>> coffee was 3 plus dollars (not for this guy thanks to my AeroPress!)
>>
>> Anyways, I did a little comparison shopping. I shopped around to 
>> Hampsten, Indy Fab, Co-Motion, etc. and found that prices for the Atlantis, 
>> AHH, Hunq were on par with other brands.
>>
>> I guess as I get older I get more sticker shock than I used to. Soon 
>> it'll be "old man yells at cloud". 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Jonathan D.]

What would be the major advantage of a custom over a Rivendell? The only 
benefit I would see is if you wanted s bike that was different from Grant’s 
vision, perhaps a disc frame bike. Perhaps there is a perception a custom 
builder can truly design a unique bike for each individual body but I am 
guessing most still have a few templates for builds they tweak for each 
customer. I am guessing most people will fit the RIv from Waterford as well as 
any custom. When you buy an Atlqntis or AHH it takes as much time to build at 
Waterford as a one person custom without the full Rivendell team to talk 
through the build. You also don’t have years of tweaking designs for folks that 
go into the frame design. I am guessing I can can get it sized as well as any 
custom. 

I would love a AHH or Atlantis from Taiwan but understand why Rivendell would 
maintain the premulium for both models. I doubt here is much quality 
difference. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[phil k]

yes, prices went up for a lot of one-man shops as well. most full-time 
custom builders are starting at $3000-3300.

i do realize that there are builders that can offer it for less than that, 
but usually they have other streams of income other than building customs, 
or are not full time, or do not build with high end steel, or have much 
less experience, etc. etc. even then, a lot of their prices went up as well.

material cost is going up, and it seems to have coincided with true temper 
pulling itself out of the bicycle tube market and refocusing on gold club 
market. i doubt labor price is going up much (if at all) for custom 
builders in the US.

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:56:24 AM UTC-5, Eric wrote:
>
> So when I heard this news I was kind of surprised. I was like...didn't 
> they just raise prices?! 
>
> My surprise was akin to hearning my grandma when she learned a cup of 
> coffee was 3 plus dollars (not for this guy thanks to my AeroPress!)
>
> Anyways, I did a little comparison shopping. I shopped around to Hampsten, 
> Indy Fab, Co-Motion, etc. and found that prices for the Atlantis, AHH, Hunq 
> were on par with other brands.
>
> I guess as I get older I get more sticker shock than I used to. Soon it'll 
> be "old man yells at cloud". 
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Eric]

So when I heard this news I was kind of surprised. I was like...didn't they 
just raise prices?! 

My surprise was akin to hearning my grandma when she learned a cup of 
coffee was 3 plus dollars (not for this guy thanks to my AeroPress!)

Anyways, I did a little comparison shopping. I shopped around to Hampsten, 
Indy Fab, Co-Motion, etc. and found that prices for the Atlantis, AHH, Hunq 
were on par with other brands.

I guess as I get older I get more sticker shock than I used to. Soon it'll 
be "old man yells at cloud". 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[phil k]

Yes that is ridiculous, but a "cheaper" way to own a "McLaren"

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Joe Bernard]

Cool color. I wonder how much you're paying for McLaren to brand a bicycle they 
otherwise had no involvement in. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[George Cline]

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-roubaix-mclaren-dura-ace-di2/p/134255?color=240101-134255

Maybe lum was referring to something like this when calling out pricing:-$

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Mark Anderson]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 5:19:00 PM UTC-6, Andrew Huston wrote:
>
> No, but making Hilsens and Hunqs in Taiwan batch-style, could make these 
> bikes more accessible with minimal quality decrease.


True, but that would require Riv to pre-order, and then stock, a very large 
number of frames.   Models like the Hilsen, Hunq, Roadeo come in many more 
sizes (8--12 or so, looking at the geometry tables) than Clems, Chevs, 
Sams, or Joes (3--5).  It would be a pretty big investment to build up that 
much stock and find a place to keep it all.  

Would those lower prices increase the sales volume enough to cover the 
costs of maintaining all that stock?  I don't know, but I doubt it.  If it 
were, then they could probably get pretty close to that volume with the 
current imported models, unless there's just a huge pent-up demand only for 
lower priced Roadeos and Hunqs that Sams and Joes (and Roadinis) simply 
cannot satisfy.  Maybe.

I think it's a hard problem for a small business like them.  

-- 
Mark 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Joe Bernard]

Ugh, too many "franklies" in that one. My kingdom for an edit feature!

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Joe Bernard]

I, too, have bouts of "money from the sky" custom dreaming, but had to face 
reality: Even if I could afford one - I sorta can if I really committed - I'm 
much too low-mileage and casual of a rider to justify the effort. My new 
Cheviot is a spectacular bicycle which already has abilities far beyond my own; 
it's frankly astonishing that such a frame can be purchased for $1400, much 
less the pre-order $1000 I paid. Frankly I think production Rivs - Taiwan or 
MUSA - are still under-priced. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Bob Lovejoy]

Dave,

Agreed on everything you said... We do vote with our dollars.  When and 
where we spend our dollars equates in its way to, we vote for more of that, 
and unfortunately, in the zero-sum sense, we vote for less of whatever we 
did not choose.  If money did fall from the sky, there are several custom 
builders (known and unknown) that I would be talking with.  Until then, 
though, the Rivendells are exactly the bikes that interest me and fill my 
needs.  I have been one of the constant search but that seems far less 
important now.  Time to ride, time to explore, time to be more the rider 
than the never quite satisfied.

That said, my incredibly poorly timed good sense and austerity cost me $$ 
when the deal on Sam's and Cheviots appeared!  Seems that stubbornness cost 
me but at least it is all going to a good cause, something I want more of 
and for it to succeed.

Bob Lovejoy
Galesburg, IL


On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:37:03 AM UTC-6, Dave Small wrote:
>
> I have a couple of thoughts:
>
> I like well-designed and well-made steel bikes that are lugged or 
> fillet-brazed, are built for 1" threaded quill stems, and can accommodate 
> tires of at least 32mm and preferably wider.  Offhand I can think of a few 
> specific models from other companies that meet those criteria, but Riv has 
> a line-up of them.  My criteria describe Riv's core philosophy, despite the 
> relatively recent introduction of TIG-welded models.  The specific models 
> from other companies are about the same price as a Sam frame or are more 
> expensive, so comparing like-to-like, Riv is priced competitively. 
>  Comparing Riv to, say, Surly or Salsa or other mass-produced Chinese 
> frames, Riv is "overpriced" but Grant acknowledges the better value of a 
> Surly frame if all you care about is utility.  I want more than that (and I 
> own a Cross Check, so know the differences firsthand) 
>
> I respect entrepreneurs in general, what Grant's done specifically, and 
> I've been pretty heavily influenced by him over the past 5 or so years.  I 
> like what the company is about, I like the people who work there, and I 
> want them to succeed.  Grant's been open about Riv's financial woes over 
> the years, and I want to help when I can.  I feel the same way about 
> another small bicycle company with whom I have a closer relationship than I 
> have with Rivendell, and I also support them with my dollars whenever I 
> can.  This isn't altruism, but it's a conscious decision on my part to send 
> my dollars to people who fill a niche I believe in, who've been good to me 
> over the years, and whose success I want to *actively* contribute to. 
>  I'm not just a satisfied customer, I'm a loyal customer, and I get 
> satisfaction out of knowing that in a small way I'm contributing to their 
> continued success.  
>
> I love Waterford (and BTW, that's not the company I referred to above).  I 
> own 2 Waterford-badged road bikes, owned a Waterford-badged racing bike 
> that I recently sold, and own a Waterford-built Homer Hilsen.  I tell 
> people that Richard Schwinn must have a pot of magic-dust that he applies a 
> little of to each bike they make, 'cause they all ride beautifully.  All 4 
> are outstanding bikes, but that excellence comes from a combination of many 
> factors, especially build quality and design; it's not just about brazing 
> technique.  The craftsmen in Taiwan are just as capable as the Craftsmen in 
> Wisconsin, and I wouldn't foresee any difference in overall build quality 
> or ride quality between an identical model made at Waterford or in a good 
> shop in Taiwan.  The Taiwanese Sams and the Cheviot I have are just as 
> pretty and well put-together as my Waterford-built bikes, but I can't 
> compare them directly because they differ in design and purpose.  
>
> Based solely on price, I don't foresee ever buying a custom Riv.  There's 
> an excellent local builder who'd build a custom lugged or fillet-brazed 
> steel frame and fork with all the bells and whistles I'd want for 
> (currently) $2350 or less.  I'd go that route and get a bike just as nice 
> for much less than a Riv custom.  A lot of good builders exist who would 
> build a nice custom in the same ballpark of price, so in that respect Riv's 
> custom prices do seem high.  It's a good thing that custom orders aren't 
> their bread and butter.   
>
> Last and least, I'm glad I took advantage of the recent Sam and Cheviot 
> presale on the day they were $1000; that was a great price even then, and 
> as of today it's even better!
>
> Dave (yes, that's my real name)
>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Patrick Moore]

One value-add, as they say in biznis speak, is what appears (from owning 5
Rivendells) a signature Rivendell handling quality which I experience as
straight line stability with "unerring" transition into turns. I had hoped
to get this from my Matthews, but didn't (and given that I ride 50 or, now,
60 mm tires at pressures in the low 20s, perhaps you simply can't get it
so).

But I'd be curious to learn what other custom builders have captured this
handling quality. I daresay it's not magic, but I certainly have found it
more with each of the 5 Rivs (tho' not all to the same degree) than with
other bikes I've owned, and I've owned quite a number.

Bertin, someone else's name.

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:37 AM, Dave Small 
wrote:

> [...]
>
> Based solely on price, I don't foresee ever buying a custom Riv.  There's
> an excellent local builder who'd build a custom lugged or fillet-brazed
> steel frame and fork with all the bells and whistles I'd want for
> (currently) $2350 or less.  I'd go that route and get a bike just as nice
> for much less than a Riv custom.  A lot of good builders exist who would
> build a nice custom in the same ballpark of price, so in that respect Riv's
> custom prices do seem high.  It's a good thing that custom orders aren't
> their bread and butter.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Belopsky]

Well stated. 

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:37:03 AM UTC-6, Dave Small wrote:
>
> I have a couple of thoughts:
>
> I like well-designed and well-made steel bikes that are lugged or 
> fillet-brazed, are built for 1" threaded quill stems, and can accommodate 
> tires of at least 32mm and preferably wider.  Offhand I can think of a few 
> specific models from other companies that meet those criteria, but Riv has 
> a line-up of them.  My criteria describe Riv's core philosophy, despite the 
> relatively recent introduction of TIG-welded models.  The specific models 
> from other companies are about the same price as a Sam frame or are more 
> expensive, so comparing like-to-like, Riv is priced competitively. 
>  Comparing Riv to, say, Surly or Salsa or other mass-produced Chinese 
> frames, Riv is "overpriced" but Grant acknowledges the better value of a 
> Surly frame if all you care about is utility.  I want more than that (and I 
> own a Cross Check, so know the differences firsthand) 
>
> I respect entrepreneurs in general, what Grant's done specifically, and 
> I've been pretty heavily influenced by him over the past 5 or so years.  I 
> like what the company is about, I like the people who work there, and I 
> want them to succeed.  Grant's been open about Riv's financial woes over 
> the years, and I want to help when I can.  I feel the same way about 
> another small bicycle company with whom I have a closer relationship than I 
> have with Rivendell, and I also support them with my dollars whenever I 
> can.  This isn't altruism, but it's a conscious decision on my part to send 
> my dollars to people who fill a niche I believe in, who've been good to me 
> over the years, and whose success I want to *actively* contribute to. 
>  I'm not just a satisfied customer, I'm a loyal customer, and I get 
> satisfaction out of knowing that in a small way I'm contributing to their 
> continued success.  
>
> I love Waterford (and BTW, that's not the company I referred to above).  I 
> own 2 Waterford-badged road bikes, owned a Waterford-badged racing bike 
> that I recently sold, and own a Waterford-built Homer Hilsen.  I tell 
> people that Richard Schwinn must have a pot of magic-dust that he applies a 
> little of to each bike they make, 'cause they all ride beautifully.  All 4 
> are outstanding bikes, but that excellence comes from a combination of many 
> factors, especially build quality and design; it's not just about brazing 
> technique.  The craftsmen in Taiwan are just as capable as the Craftsmen in 
> Wisconsin, and I wouldn't foresee any difference in overall build quality 
> or ride quality between an identical model made at Waterford or in a good 
> shop in Taiwan.  The Taiwanese Sams and the Cheviot I have are just as 
> pretty and well put-together as my Waterford-built bikes, but I can't 
> compare them directly because they differ in design and purpose.  
>
> Based solely on price, I don't foresee ever buying a custom Riv.  There's 
> an excellent local builder who'd build a custom lugged or fillet-brazed 
> steel frame and fork with all the bells and whistles I'd want for 
> (currently) $2350 or less.  I'd go that route and get a bike just as nice 
> for much less than a Riv custom.  A lot of good builders exist who would 
> build a nice custom in the same ballpark of price, so in that respect Riv's 
> custom prices do seem high.  It's a good thing that custom orders aren't 
> their bread and butter.   
>
> Last and least, I'm glad I took advantage of the recent Sam and Cheviot 
> presale on the day they were $1000; that was a great price even then, and 
> as of today it's even better!
>
> Dave (yes, that's my real name)
>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Here's what Grant had to say on the subject of price and value and bicycles 
exactly 22 years ago, in the sidebar in the February 1996 issue of Bicycle 
Guide magazine (click to embiggen):




On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 10:37:03 AM UTC-5, Dave Small wrote:
>
> I have a couple of thoughts:
>
> I like well-designed and well-made steel bikes that are lugged or 
> fillet-brazed, are built for 1" threaded quill stems, and can accommodate 
> tires of at least 32mm and preferably wider.  Offhand I can think of a few 
> specific models from other companies that meet those criteria, but Riv has 
> a line-up of them.  My criteria describe Riv's core philosophy, despite the 
> relatively recent introduction of TIG-welded models.  The specific models 
> from other companies are about the same price as a Sam frame or are more 
> expensive, so comparing like-to-like, Riv is priced competitively. 
>  Comparing Riv to, say, Surly or Salsa or other mass-produced Chinese 
> frames, Riv is "overpriced" but Grant acknowledges the better value of a 
> Surly frame if all you care about is utility.  I want more than that (and I 
> own a Cross Check, so know the differences firsthand) 
>
> I respect entrepreneurs in general, what Grant's done specifically, and 
> I've been pretty heavily influenced by him over the past 5 or so years.  I 
> like what the company is about, I like the people who work there, and I 
> want them to succeed.  Grant's been open about Riv's financial woes over 
> the years, and I want to help when I can.  I feel the same way about 
> another small bicycle company with whom I have a closer relationship than I 
> have with Rivendell, and I also support them with my dollars whenever I 
> can.  This isn't altruism, but it's a conscious decision on my part to send 
> my dollars to people who fill a niche I believe in, who've been good to me 
> over the years, and whose success I want to *actively* contribute to. 
>  I'm not just a satisfied customer, I'm a loyal customer, and I get 
> satisfaction out of knowing that in a small way I'm contributing to their 
> continued success.  
>
> I love Waterford (and BTW, that's not the company I referred to above).  I 
> own 2 Waterford-badged road bikes, owned a Waterford-badged racing bike 
> that I recently sold, and own a Waterford-built Homer Hilsen.  I tell 
> people that Richard Schwinn must have a pot of magic-dust that he applies a 
> little of to each bike they make, 'cause they all ride beautifully.  All 4 
> are outstanding bikes, but that excellence comes from a combination of many 
> factors, especially build quality and design; it's not just about brazing 
> technique.  The craftsmen in Taiwan are just as capable as the Craftsmen in 
> Wisconsin, and I wouldn't foresee any difference in overall build quality 
> or ride quality between an identical model made at Waterford or in a good 
> shop in Taiwan.  The Taiwanese Sams and the Cheviot I have are just as 
> pretty and well put-together as my Waterford-built bikes, but I can't 
> compare them directly because they differ in design and purpose.  
>
> Based solely on price, I don't foresee ever buying a custom Riv.  There's 
> an excellent local builder who'd build a custom lugged or fillet-brazed 
> steel frame and fork with all the bells and whistles I'd want for 
> (currently) $2350 or less.  I'd go that route and get a bike just as nice 
> for much less than a Riv custom.  A lot of good builders exist who would 
> build a nice custom in the same ballpark of price, so in that respect Riv's 
> custom prices do seem high.  It's a good thing that custom orders aren't 
> their bread and butter.   
>
> Last and least, I'm glad I took advantage of the recent Sam and Cheviot 
> presale on the day they were $1000; that was a great price even then, and 
> as of today it's even better!
>
> Dave (yes, that's my real name)
>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Dave Small]

I have a couple of thoughts:

I like well-designed and well-made steel bikes that are lugged or 
fillet-brazed, are built for 1" threaded quill stems, and can accommodate 
tires of at least 32mm and preferably wider.  Offhand I can think of a few 
specific models from other companies that meet those criteria, but Riv has 
a line-up of them.  My criteria describe Riv's core philosophy, despite the 
relatively recent introduction of TIG-welded models.  The specific models 
from other companies are about the same price as a Sam frame or are more 
expensive, so comparing like-to-like, Riv is priced competitively. 
 Comparing Riv to, say, Surly or Salsa or other mass-produced Chinese 
frames, Riv is "overpriced" but Grant acknowledges the better value of a 
Surly frame if all you care about is utility.  I want more than that (and I 
own a Cross Check, so know the differences firsthand) 

I respect entrepreneurs in general, what Grant's done specifically, and 
I've been pretty heavily influenced by him over the past 5 or so years.  I 
like what the company is about, I like the people who work there, and I 
want them to succeed.  Grant's been open about Riv's financial woes over 
the years, and I want to help when I can.  I feel the same way about 
another small bicycle company with whom I have a closer relationship than I 
have with Rivendell, and I also support them with my dollars whenever I 
can.  This isn't altruism, but it's a conscious decision on my part to send 
my dollars to people who fill a niche I believe in, who've been good to me 
over the years, and whose success I want to *actively* contribute to.  I'm 
not just a satisfied customer, I'm a loyal customer, and I get satisfaction 
out of knowing that in a small way I'm contributing to their continued 
success.  

I love Waterford (and BTW, that's not the company I referred to above).  I 
own 2 Waterford-badged road bikes, owned a Waterford-badged racing bike 
that I recently sold, and own a Waterford-built Homer Hilsen.  I tell 
people that Richard Schwinn must have a pot of magic-dust that he applies a 
little of to each bike they make, 'cause they all ride beautifully.  All 4 
are outstanding bikes, but that excellence comes from a combination of many 
factors, especially build quality and design; it's not just about brazing 
technique.  The craftsmen in Taiwan are just as capable as the Craftsmen in 
Wisconsin, and I wouldn't foresee any difference in overall build quality 
or ride quality between an identical model made at Waterford or in a good 
shop in Taiwan.  The Taiwanese Sams and the Cheviot I have are just as 
pretty and well put-together as my Waterford-built bikes, but I can't 
compare them directly because they differ in design and purpose.  

Based solely on price, I don't foresee ever buying a custom Riv.  There's 
an excellent local builder who'd build a custom lugged or fillet-brazed 
steel frame and fork with all the bells and whistles I'd want for 
(currently) $2350 or less.  I'd go that route and get a bike just as nice 
for much less than a Riv custom.  A lot of good builders exist who would 
build a nice custom in the same ballpark of price, so in that respect Riv's 
custom prices do seem high.  It's a good thing that custom orders aren't 
their bread and butter.   

Last and least, I'm glad I took advantage of the recent Sam and Cheviot 
presale on the day they were $1000; that was a great price even then, and 
as of today it's even better!

Dave (yes, that's my real name)

>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[RJM]

That's what I think. If a custom MUSA frame can be had for not a lot more 
than what a production frame costs, eventually people will choose to go 
custom, choose to purchase overseas produced frames, or go a different 
route for a bicycle. 


On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 10:43:55 AM UTC-6, Belopsky wrote:

> ^Exactly. Waterford is pricing themselves out of the market, sorry not 
> sorry. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Joe Bernard]

I don't have a problem discussing why prices rises, I just take issue with a 
question being presented as though there was no explanation from Grant. There's 
been countless explanations of the state of business over all the years Riv had 
existed, and a good number in the last couple months. The need for more 
business and higher prices is acutely clear. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Bob K.]

While it’s possible to get another MUSA bike for cheaper than a MUSA Rivendell, 
it won’t ever magically morph into a Rivendell. So there’s that.

I don’t, however, think it’s ludicrous to have a conversation about the price 
change. Clearly, Grant knew it would be a big deal because he mentioned it a 
few times prior to it actually happening. I’m assuming he’s worried about how 
the pricing will affect business, and I’m guessing he also kept prices where 
they were for so long (years!) because of said worry. 

I also don’t think anyone has been out of line in voicing opinions on either 
side. Bikes are awesome. They’re also expensive. (And they should probably be 
even more expensive!) That’s the dance that Rivendell has danced so graciously 
all these years, and I appreciate the thoughtfulness and transparency that goes 
into their decision-making. 

I’m not really sure what sort of a contribution this was, but I tried.

(The Real) Bob K. in Baltimore

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

You can plug your years and dollar figures into the adjusted inflation 
machine all you want. But like almost all statistics and figures having to 
do with our economy, you won't get even close to the real picture. The 
owners or investors of companies like bikesdirect or Public might be in it 
in large part to make a buck, but anyone who thinks the smaller companies 
making or designing steel frames for the U.S. market is raking in the 
ducats, I suggest you go ahead and hang a shingle and see how it goes. 

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:20:29 PM UTC-5, Christopher Murray 
wrote:
>
> $1000 in 1999 is just about $1500 in 2018 accounting for inflation. When 
> USA made frames are going for double, triple, or more since 1999 I don’t 
> think “out of control” is a totally crazy opinion. I might not agree with 
> it but I think it’s within the realm of normal and acceptable opinions. 
>
> Chris  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'm pretty sure Taiwan already has, and has had, the best large production 
bicycle factories for some time, including carbon fiber, aluminum, and 
steel.

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 6:26:28 PM UTC-5, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> Price also has to go up considering Taiwan has made significant investment 
> in their bike factory technology and aqcuiring more skilled labor and it's 
> fast approaching the best factories in the world that can fulfill on a 
> production scale in high quality frames.
>
> Same thing happened to Nike in S Korea back in the 80s IIRC. Nike 
> initially got the cheap shoes they wanted, but S Korean factories invested 
> in their shoe factory technology and prices rose to reflect the quality 
> produced. Nike tried to make their shoes elsewhere and suffered a loss in 
> quality. So now their premium shoe lines are made in S Korea factories.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Joe Bernard]

There's a short answer to the question, and it's right in the Blug post this 
thread is about:

"F.A.Q.: Why are your frames so expensive? Answer: COSTS!"

I'm not clear why we're using this forum to ask answered questions. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Philip Kim]

Price also has to go up considering Taiwan has made significant investment in 
their bike factory technology and aqcuiring more skilled labor and it's fast 
approaching the best factories in the world that can fulfill on a production 
scale in high quality frames.

Same thing happened to Nike in S Korea back in the 80s IIRC. Nike initially got 
the cheap shoes they wanted, but S Korean factories invested in their shoe 
factory technology and prices rose to reflect the quality produced. Nike tried 
to make their shoes elsewhere and suffered a loss in quality. So now their 
premium shoe lines are made in S Korea factories.

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Andrew Huston]

No, but making Hilsens and Hunqs in Taiwan batch-style, could make these bikes 
more accessible with minimal quality decrease. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Mark Anderson]

It is likely that a large part of what makes the Taiwan-made frames so much 
cheaper is that they are made---and shipped---in batches of several 
identical model, size, color frames. Ordering bikes one-at-a-time like the 
nominally `production' Waterford frames, then shipping them across the 
Pacific individually would not result in Hilsens for the price of 
Hillbornes, methinks. 
  
Mark Anderson in Chicago

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 1:24:32 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The terrible secret about the Taiwan versions is they're just as 
> meticulously brazed by bike geeks as the MUSA frames. Everybody likes 
> supporting domestic production and some of us have the cash to support it, 
> but realistically you're not getting a "better" Riv. They're all great.  

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Eric Karnes]

I think Bill makes a very good point about resale value. When I first read 
this post, I'll admit some concern at Rivendell pricing themselves out of 
the market. I thought 'Wow, I could buy a pretty damned good custom for 
$2700." Simon Firth here in Philly makes amazing lugged frames/forks for 
$2500. He was the head builder at Bilenky for many years. But with a stock 
Rivendell, you get top-notch custom quality, that wonderful Riv ride, 
and–should you decide to eventually sell it–at least half of the price back 
on a five or even ten-year-old frame. You'd be lucky to get a fourth of the 
original cost when reselling most customs.

Eric

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 12:26:48 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I think nick b is probably right in his interpretation of Rivs BLUG typo.  
> It's not clear to me whether the HHH Tandem frames needed to be included at 
> all.  The HHH tandem is $1800, and they have just a few in stock.  There's 
> no plan to do another run, and the 'costs' of the ones in stock aren't 
> changing.  So, they will either stay at $1800, or they will go up just 
> because that's the price they should have been in the first place.  It's 
> hard to say.  It's a smart move to buy sooner rather than later, at any 
> rate.  
>
> This does feed into the pretty-darn-good resale value of Rivendells in 
> general.  Since Rivendell doesn't have 'model years', you could have a 10 
> year old Atlantis that you bought for $1500.  Sell it as a used frame and 
> fork for $1000, and it'll get snapped up in minutes.  You got a 10 year 
> rental of an Atlantis for $500, and your buyer feels like they won the 
> lottery.  It's pretty great for that situation.  It's not so great for 
> somebody who knee-jerk buys a new Rivendell and then two months later 
> decides s/he doesn't want it.  That seller wants 80% of retail, and few 
> people want to buy used at that price.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 10:43:23 PM UTC-8, nick b wrote:
>>
>> The prices are going up $100 from $1300 to $1400.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Patrick Moore]

LOL. Not about the shrinking quantities that the g-damned corporate suits
try to sneak past us hoping we don't notice -- the gross sin here is not
only the cheating; it's the pettiness, meanness, and caddish nature of it,
petty snivelling little shits -- but the idea that the Rivendell suits are
scheming behind closed doors to whittle away at the model sizes to save
pennies per unit. So:

Your '99 Atlantis had a 58 cm st, c-c, but in 2010, that was slyly reduced
to 58 cm c-t; and in 2018 it was cut again to 57 cm c-t while the
chainstays were reduced 7.5 mm in the hope no one would notice.

Hey, perhaps a 20 lb Roadeo is possible after all, as long as you buy a
late model!

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Coal Bee Rye Anne <
lionsrugbyalu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... but kinda reminds of Haagen Dazs reducing their "pints" from 16 to
> 14oz rather than raise their pint price.
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[William R.]

Oh man... I just want to add that Grant and Riv struggle to survive from 
year to year in this country that does not support small, successful, 
vibrant, loved, etc. companies like this. Riv employs a bunch of great, 
real people that answer the phone when you call. People who love the 
product just as much as we do. They ride it. They know it. There are a few 
companies that I know of that sell similar product. Some of them are one 
man businesses and/or businesses with fewer employees. I don't know how 
they do it. I respect them too. But Riv, because Grant has stuck to his 
guns always, and respects his employees, struggles at times to take care of 
them. I can and have and will continue to support this. The pricing 
increases seem reasonable to me. I have only ever had Taiwanese built Rivs. 
They have all been great. My Appaloosa is just... wow, the details on that 
frame, the ride quality, the incredible fork, long, sweet wheelbase, the 
lugs, the paint. I got the complete new from Riv for $2,100! Today... I 
don't know, I think it would still be an incredible deal at say $2,750... 
And now I have my Roadini, which again is just beautiful and a joy to ride. 
Grants design is just so spot on for my type of riding. So glad I found Riv 
(or they found me). For all of this and more I say great, really well 
thought out products at great prices. I'm not in a position to buy one of 
the Waterford frames or a custom. But yes, the gap in pricing is reduced, 
and Waterford mystifies me a little. If I were in that market, I would lean 
to the custom Nobilette side, but I feel that both are still really good 
values. The customs just got a little better. But enough blah drivel of 
this Riv fan boy.

Bill in Westchester, NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Jim Bronson]

Prices of everything have to go up eventually in a country where you have a
constant trade deficit.  1+1!=3.

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 3:51 PM, Mattt  wrote:

> The price is still pretty good compared to other kinds of bikes out there.
>
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Mattt]

The price is still pretty good compared to other kinds of bikes out there.   

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I'll also add that as an owner of a Waterford Tig'd Milwaukee frame and a 
Taiwanese Tig'd Rivendell Clem Smith both have equally clean looking welds 
with no perceptible differences as far as my untrained eye could tell.  I 
trust that the imported fully lugged Riv's are just as reliable and well 
made as the MUSA options and as long as all the models differ enough to 
warrant a model vs model and sizing debate if I were in the market for 
another I'd rule out an imported "in stock" one (SH/Appa/Chev) first before 
considering the expense and wait for a made to order MUSA version.  I'm all 
for supporting local MUSA business but only so far as I could realistically 
and comfortably afford and an imported Riv is still supporting 
Riv and imported parts from the LBS (or Riv) still supports the LBS (or 
Riv.)

 

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:23:24 PM UTC-5, Coal Bee Rye Anne wrote:

> Either the price of your product needs to be adjusted to reflect it, or 
> your product needs to be adjusted to reflect your target price... off topic 
> but kinda reminds of Haagen Dazs reducing their "pints" from 16 to 14oz 
> rather than raise their pint price.  I recall this happening a while 
> back when spotting Ben's pints being packaged with added text that 
> read "STILL A PINT!"  and I remember thinking to myself "well, duh, of 
> course it's still a pint" and thinking nothing more of it until a later 
> date when I happened to see them side by side only to discover Haagen 
> Dazs pints had shrunk so they could keep the price from changing.
>
> I certainly don't see Riv shrinking their bikes (especially with the 
> recent lengthening of chainstays) just to keep costs down deceptively.  
> They also already went with imported TIG models at a much more 
> affordable price point for those of us that remain just out of reach of 
> fully lugged models (unless chasing one down on the used resale market) and 
> the reason I finally was able to purchase one (a 65cm Clem.) I'm grateful 
> that the stars aligned at the time so I could pick up the mega Clem, 
> especially now that it's been mentioned they are very unlikely to be 
> replenished.  
>
> Brian Cole
>
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
>> I would imagine because Grant wants a new car. Just kidding. I suspect 
>> the usual reason, which is that the cost of doing business is going 
>> up--factories charging more, shipping costs, labor, insurance, etc. These 
>> things are generally always inching up, and after a while, the price of 
>> your product needs to reflect this, or after another while, you are out of 
>> business.
>>
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Either the price of your product needs to be adjusted to reflect it, or 
your product needs to be adjusted to reflect your target price... off topic 
but kinda reminds of Haagen Dazs reducing their "pints" from 16 to 14oz 
rather than raise their pint price.  I recall this happening a while 
back when spotting Ben's pints being packaged with added text that 
read "STILL A PINT!"  and I remember thinking to myself "well, duh, of 
course it's still a pint" and thinking nothing more of it until a later 
date when I happened to see them side by side only to discover Haagen 
Dazs pints had shrunk so they could keep the price from changing.

I certainly don't see Riv shrinking their bikes (especially with the 
recent lengthening of chainstays) just to keep costs down deceptively.  
They also already went with imported TIG models at a much more 
affordable price point for those of us that remain just out of reach of 
fully lugged models (unless chasing one down on the used resale market) and 
the reason I finally was able to purchase one (a 65cm Clem.) I'm grateful 
that the stars aligned at the time so I could pick up the mega Clem, 
especially now that it's been mentioned they are very unlikely to be 
replenished.  

Brian Cole

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:

> I would imagine because Grant wants a new car. Just kidding. I suspect the 
> usual reason, which is that the cost of doing business is going 
> up--factories charging more, shipping costs, labor, insurance, etc. These 
> things are generally always inching up, and after a while, the price of 
> your product needs to reflect this, or after another while, you are out of 
> business.
>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Christopher Murray]

$1000 in 1999 is just about $1500 in 2018 accounting for inflation. When USA 
made frames are going for double, triple, or more since 1999 I don’t think “out 
of control” is a totally crazy opinion. I might not agree with it but I think 
it’s within the realm of normal and acceptable opinions. 

Chris  

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I would imagine because Grant wants a new car. Just kidding. I suspect the 
usual reason, which is that the cost of doing business is going 
up--factories charging more, shipping costs, labor, insurance, etc. These 
things are generally always inching up, and after a while, the price of 
your product needs to reflect this, or after another while, you are out of 
business.

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:04:18 PM UTC-5, Eric wrote:
>
> My mistake Bill, I misread your previous posting questioning the "posting 
> police". 
>
> So to get this discussion back on track...does anyone know why prices are 
> increasing? 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Belopsky]

Not sure what Lum (IF THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME ;) ) is referring to as far as 
bike industry pricing. Do you mean frames? Do you mean parts?
There are ways around this if you care to spend time and wait a bit longer 
- overseas sellers and the like.

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[RJM]

I've had a Taiwan Sam, a Waterford Roadeo, and an Atlantis that I am really 
not sure where it was built. They all rode like Rivendells. I wouldn't have 
a problem with an entire line of Taiwan Rivs provided the quality was the 
same as the Sam I had. 

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 12:27:31 PM UTC-6, Andrew Huston wrote:
>
> Would the perceived “value” of these bikes be less if the design 
> attributes remained and the production went overseas for a respective 
> reduction on the price tag?   
> I’ve felt that the Taiwanese versions are rather highly regarded by Riv 
> staff. I have owned both Waterford and Taiwan built bikes. The Hunqapillar 
> was great but so was the Joe and Sam. 
> For those who love these bikes, would you embrace an entire line of 
> foreign produced Rivs? 
> I would. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Joe Bernard]

The terrible secret about the Taiwan versions is they're just as meticulously 
brazed by bike geeks as the MUSA frames. Everybody likes supporting domestic 
production and some of us have the cash to support it, but realistically you're 
not getting a "better" Riv. They're all great.  

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Eric]

My mistake Bill, I misread your previous posting questioning the "posting 
police". 

So to get this discussion back on track...does anyone know why prices are 
increasing? 


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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Andrew Huston]

Would the perceived “value” of these bikes be less if the design attributes 
remained and the production went overseas for a respective reduction on the 
price tag?  
I’ve felt that the Taiwanese versions are rather highly regarded by Riv staff. 
I have owned both Waterford and Taiwan built bikes. The Hunqapillar was great 
but so was the Joe and Sam. 
For those who love these bikes, would you embrace an entire line of foreign 
produced Rivs?
I would. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Bill Lindsay]

Eric

I've heard various "police" names thrown out when people are feeling 
persecuted.  If Lum Gim Fong is feeling unfairly persecuted.  The classic 
situation is when people habitually post misspellings, or fragment 
sentences, or otherwise sloppy grammar, and somebody points out the bad 
grammar.  The offending poster might say "The grammar police are out 
today!"  I didn't see any active persecution of Lum Gim Fong, so I asked.  

I do not recall anybody deciding on this board that discussion of RBW and 
their products is 'verboten'. So, I guess I answer "no, I do not find it 
laughable". I think it's fine to discuss RBW and their products on this 
board. Are you talking about a specific situation where somebody claimed 
that RBW discussion was off-limits?  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 9:49:10 AM UTC-8, Eric wrote:
>
> Bill, I've never heard the term "posting police".  
>
> Do you find it laughable that this group is "dedicated to the discussion 
> of RBW and products" and that someone decides that actual discussion of 
> such is verboten? 
>
> I do. 
>
> Additionally, while resale value can fluctuate, it seems outside the scope 
> of OP's thread.  
>
> Finally, Grant often mention about the strength/weakness of the dollar in 
> relation to production. Is the dollar strong against the yen? Can Toyo one 
> again make bikes for Riv? 
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Eric]

Bill, I've never heard the term "posting police".  

Do you find it laughable that this group is "dedicated to the discussion of 
RBW and products" and that someone decides that actual discussion of such 
is verboten? 

I do. 

Additionally, while resale value can fluctuate, it seems outside the scope 
of OP's thread.  

Finally, Grant often mention about the strength/weakness of the dollar in 
relation to production. Is the dollar strong against the yen? Can Toyo one 
again make bikes for Riv? 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Joe Bernard]

At this point I think it's fair to say the line between MUSA production and 
MUSA custom is well and truly blurred. They're both handbuilt in USA with long 
lead times, with the main difference on Nobilletes being specific tubing and 
sizing for the specific customer. And that sweet Rivendell downtube decal. 

Joe "make mine a Wilbury" Bernard

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Bill Lindsay]

I think nick b is probably right in his interpretation of Rivs BLUG typo.  
It's not clear to me whether the HHH Tandem frames needed to be included at 
all.  The HHH tandem is $1800, and they have just a few in stock.  There's 
no plan to do another run, and the 'costs' of the ones in stock aren't 
changing.  So, they will either stay at $1800, or they will go up just 
because that's the price they should have been in the first place.  It's 
hard to say.  It's a smart move to buy sooner rather than later, at any 
rate.  

This does feed into the pretty-darn-good resale value of Rivendells in 
general.  Since Rivendell doesn't have 'model years', you could have a 10 
year old Atlantis that you bought for $1500.  Sell it as a used frame and 
fork for $1000, and it'll get snapped up in minutes.  You got a 10 year 
rental of an Atlantis for $500, and your buyer feels like they won the 
lottery.  It's pretty great for that situation.  It's not so great for 
somebody who knee-jerk buys a new Rivendell and then two months later 
decides s/he doesn't want it.  That seller wants 80% of retail, and few 
people want to buy used at that price.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 10:43:23 PM UTC-8, nick b wrote:
>
> The prices are going up $100 from $1300 to $1400.
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Philip Kim]

not sure what you mean? do you mean mass produced parts (like shimano 
components, etc) and their price in US relative to their price in other 
parts of the world? Do you mean pricing on bikes like Surly/All city in the 
US is too high? That Americans overpay for the current bike trends like 
race bikes, gravel bikes, etc.?

Rivendell's pricing is pretty competitive to the value provided for folks 
that like steel lugged bikes, but don't want to go custom. They don't 
really have comparable frame sellers for their Taiwanese frames. 

Their MUSA frames are reaching the same prices offered by high quality 
custom builders. Only, Rivendell's options are not custom, they are stock.


On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:48:20 AM UTC-5, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> I think the bike industry pricing in the USA is out of control.
>
> That said, I think Rivendells pricing is competitive, if not better than 
> like frame sellers.
>
> Posting police please stay away.
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Bill Lindsay]

Lum Gim Fong said: "Posting police please stay away."

Can you please expand on the meaning of this request?  At whom is this 
directed, and what are these people doing?

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 8:48:20 AM UTC-8, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> I think the bike industry pricing in the USA is out of control.
>
> That said, I think Rivendells pricing is competitive, if not better than 
> like frame sellers.
>
> Posting police please stay away.
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Julian Westerhout]

I do not hear of many U.S. based builders getting hugely rich, in fact, 
quite the opposite. 

This makes me think that saying "bike industry pricing in the USA is out of 
control" is just another way of saying one prefers products and/or the 
price structure associated with mass production in low wage, low 
environmental standard countries. 

It's hard to get top quality products made by fairly compensated workers 
for pennies. 

Julian Westerhout
Bloomington, IL

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 10:48:20 AM UTC-6, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> I think the bike industry pricing in the USA is out of control.
>
> That said, I think Rivendells pricing is competitive, if not better than 
> like frame sellers.
>
> Posting police please stay away.
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Eric]

Lum, can you expand on how bike industry pricing out of control but Riv is 
competitive?

And did Waterford raise all their prices too? 

 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Lum Gim Fong]

I think the bike industry pricing in the USA is out of control.

That said, I think Rivendells pricing is competitive, if not better than 
like frame sellers.

Posting police please stay away.

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Belopsky]

^Exactly. Waterford is pricing themselves out of the market, sorry not 
sorry. 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[Eric]

$2700 for a stock Atlantis or AHH? 

$3500 for a custom sounds cheap.

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell prices going up.

[nick b]

The prices are going up $100 from $1300 to $1400.

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