Black Steel Pipe Outside
We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside
NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside
Some of the black pipe these days comes with a coating on it, I believe for corrosion resistance. I also believe that painted grooved fittings are acceptable in this application. Please correct me if I am wrong. If it is an FM project, all dry system piping is to be galvanized. I would definitely explain the maintenance costs later and the frequency of such if he pushes the black pipe - a little higher cost now can save a lot later. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell www.keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside
I did see that but Allied makes a coating called M-Coat that this guy seems to think means it meets the requirement of 8.16.4.2.3, I thinks that's a huge stretch since the data sheets don't mention anything about being suitable for outside conditions. I suppose I'll give Allied a call and pick their brains as well. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: 13R / AUTOMATIC DOMESTIC SHUTOFF VALVE
yes , i think so unless you relocate the house domestic to apt that will be s/o with the priority valve you need to make water service be dedicated to sprinkler only if needed. priority can also be done w/ flow switch and solenoid valve -Original Message- From: IPA nsfdc...@gmail.com To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:49 am Subject: 13R / AUTOMATIC DOMESTIC SHUTOFF VALVE Hey, I have an existing home with a new structure going up with 4 apartments all n the same lot. Apartments are going to be per 13R. The existing house is ot sprinkled and not required to be at this time. The water for the house nd the apartments are being supplied via the existing water line and eter. The new apartments will tap into the shared line right past the xisting meter. Using 3.0 k-factor sprinklers I can make the system work in his configuration but I will need to use Tyco's automatic domestic shutoff alves in order to avoid factoring in the domestic draws and exceeding the pm limitations of the water meter. When the water line enters into the new partment building it tees off to the domestic and the other end of tee is or fire. Question is: Besides the obvious location of the automatic domestic shutoff alve within the apartment building will an additional valve be required here the underground line feeds the existing house to prevent their omestic demands from taxing the apartment system? I've already designed it with two valves but am now second guessing myself. Thanks, - next part -- n HTML attachment was scrubbed... RL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/b1ab2108/attachment.html __ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/d5dbeeaf/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: 13R / AUTOMATIC DOMESTIC SHUTOFF VALVE
If you want to shut off the domestic to the house, you will need to pipe the domestic to the house from the domestic outlet in the apartments. If you just added an additional domestic shutoff valve to the house, any flow to the apartments would shut off flow to the house. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of kmick44...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: 13R / AUTOMATIC DOMESTIC SHUTOFF VALVE yes , i think so unless you relocate the house domestic to apt that will be s/o with the priority valve you need to make water service be dedicated to sprinkler only if needed. priority can also be done w/ flow switch and solenoid valve -Original Message- From: IPA nsfdc...@gmail.com To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:49 am Subject: 13R / AUTOMATIC DOMESTIC SHUTOFF VALVE Hey, I have an existing home with a new structure going up with 4 apartments all n the same lot. Apartments are going to be per 13R. The existing house is ot sprinkled and not required to be at this time. The water for the house nd the apartments are being supplied via the existing water line and eter. The new apartments will tap into the shared line right past the xisting meter. Using 3.0 k-factor sprinklers I can make the system work in his configuration but I will need to use Tyco's automatic domestic shutoff alves in order to avoid factoring in the domestic draws and exceeding the pm limitations of the water meter. When the water line enters into the new partment building it tees off to the domestic and the other end of tee is or fire. Question is: Besides the obvious location of the automatic domestic shutoff alve within the apartment building will an additional valve be required here the underground line feeds the existing house to prevent their omestic demands from taxing the apartment system? I've already designed it with two valves but am now second guessing myself. Thanks, - next part -- n HTML attachment was scrubbed... RL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/b1ab2108/attachment.html __ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/d5dbeeaf/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: 13R / AUTOMATIC DOMESTIC SHUTOFF VALVE
Hello IPA, The way the Tyco valve works is: Looking at the cut sheet ONLY the 2 valve is listed for 12R. When there is no back pressure on the sprinkler outlet it diverts all the water that direction cutting off the flow to the domestic port. When the pressure on the sprinkler outlet builds up to the supply pressure it opens the port to the domestic port. When the pressure on the sprinkler port drops it closes off the domestic port. How are you going to handle domestic cutoff for the other buildings when one of them has a fire flow? These valves will not trigger domestic cutoff unless the pressure on the sprinkler port of THAT valve drops. The only way I See to make your situation work put one of these valves at the meter Run a line from the domestic port to ALL the buildings for domestic supply AND run a line from the sprinkler port to ALL the buildings for the sprinkler Thursday, January 17, 2013, 9:49:31 AM, you wrote: Hey, I have an existing home with a new structure going up with 4 apartments all on the same lot. Apartments are going to be per 13R. The existing house is not sprinkled and not required to be at this time. The water for the house and the apartments are being supplied via the existing water line and meter. The new apartments will tap into the shared line right past the existing meter. Using 3.0 k-factor sprinklers I can make the system work in this configuration but I will need to use Tyco's automatic domestic shutoff valves in order to avoid factoring in the domestic draws and exceeding the gpm limitations of the water meter. When the water line enters into the new apartment building it tees off to the domestic and the other end of tee is for fire. Question is: Besides the obvious location of the automatic domestic shutoff valve within the apartment building will an additional valve be required where the underground line feeds the existing house to prevent their domestic demands from taxing the apartment system? I've already designed it with two valves but am now second guessing myself. Thanks, -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/b1ab2108/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Best regards, Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole purpose of the intended recipients and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: 13R / AUTOMATIC DOMESTIC SHUTOFF VALVE
I'd say you need to include the house because you're tapped off a dead end line, not a loop, and the domestic demand of the house becomes a part of the total flow along that feed line. As Jamie said you will have to pipe the domestic to the house from downstream of the domestic outlet on the shut-off device. A pump may be a more economical solution presuming you need to shut off domestic flows due to pressure drop rather than excessive consumption. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.comwrote: Hello IPA, The way the Tyco valve works is: Looking at the cut sheet ONLY the 2 valve is listed for 12R. When there is no back pressure on the sprinkler outlet it diverts all the water that direction cutting off the flow to the domestic port. When the pressure on the sprinkler outlet builds up to the supply pressure it opens the port to the domestic port. When the pressure on the sprinkler port drops it closes off the domestic port. How are you going to handle domestic cutoff for the other buildings when one of them has a fire flow? These valves will not trigger domestic cutoff unless the pressure on the sprinkler port of THAT valve drops. The only way I See to make your situation work put one of these valves at the meter Run a line from the domestic port to ALL the buildings for domestic supply AND run a line from the sprinkler port to ALL the buildings for the sprinkler Thursday, January 17, 2013, 9:49:31 AM, you wrote: Hey, I have an existing home with a new structure going up with 4 apartments all on the same lot. Apartments are going to be per 13R. The existing house is not sprinkled and not required to be at this time. The water for the house and the apartments are being supplied via the existing water line and meter. The new apartments will tap into the shared line right past the existing meter. Using 3.0 k-factor sprinklers I can make the system work in this configuration but I will need to use Tyco's automatic domestic shutoff valves in order to avoid factoring in the domestic draws and exceeding the gpm limitations of the water meter. When the water line enters into the new apartment building it tees off to the domestic and the other end of tee is for fire. Question is: Besides the obvious location of the automatic domestic shutoff valve within the apartment building will an additional valve be required where the underground line feeds the existing house to prevent their domestic demands from taxing the apartment system? I've already designed it with two valves but am now second guessing myself. Thanks, -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/b1ab2108/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Best regards, Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole purpose of the intended recipients and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/1e7da596/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Black Steel Pipe Outside
I don't know for sure but the coatings on black steel seem to be there more for protecting it for the short time involved post manufacture to sale, shipping, a short time time storage. They don't make pipe today that they expect to be storing for five years, The game is to make it and sell it as fast as possible. I think these coatings are not designed to protect the pipe for any extended length of time. If they were we'd never use galvanized. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Brian Harris bhar...@bvssystemsinc.comwrote: I did see that but Allied makes a coating called M-Coat that this guy seems to think means it meets the requirement of 8.16.4.2.3, I thinks that's a huge stretch since the data sheets don't mention anything about being suitable for outside conditions. I suppose I'll give Allied a call and pick their brains as well. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/5938bcf7/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside
The M-coat is not a corrosion resistance coating. Read the info on the Allied website. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Black Steel Pipe Outside I don't know for sure but the coatings on black steel seem to be there more for protecting it for the short time involved post manufacture to sale, shipping, a short time time storage. They don't make pipe today that they expect to be storing for five years, The game is to make it and sell it as fast as possible. I think these coatings are not designed to protect the pipe for any extended length of time. If they were we'd never use galvanized. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Brian Harris bhar...@bvssystemsinc.comwrote: I did see that but Allied makes a coating called M-Coat that this guy seems to think means it meets the requirement of 8.16.4.2.3, I thinks that's a huge stretch since the data sheets don't mention anything about being suitable for outside conditions. I suppose I'll give Allied a call and pick their brains as well. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac hments/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/5938bcf7/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Replacing heads after a fire
2 is all required in your example, well if you want to return to service. The heat cooling cycle of the glass bulbs are repeated cycles to very near operating temperature as I understand it. One more cycle if it takes 100's or more cycles won't make a difference. The first 99 are the problem. On the creep of solder its sustained temperatures near operation as I understand it. This is a problem not a single fire. On the acid - well smoke comes in all flavors. I'm certainly no chemist but with that logic why are we not replacing the structural components or the plumbing etc.? Weren't they also damaged by the acid smoke? I think where acid is an issue is in sensitive electronics. Think of the difference in surface area. And I don't understand the burn/smoke radius part. The burn radius of a sprinkler controlled fire is on the order of 1 to ten's of feet. The smoke is often the entire building. Not sure you need to go next door and replace sprinkler head to get 2 rings past, lol. What I typically see is out of an abundance of caution replace the fused heads and the first ring around. But I don't think it has any technical merit. Once the fitter is there a couple more heads is cheap to make everyone feel good. In the end I wouldn't balk if you replace the 2 and if someone pays you for more, good for you. Good discussion item. Often we don't get truly new things to banter about on this forum. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Replacing heads after a fire This was a hypothetical question asked by one of our inspectors the other day, and I did not know the answer. Thought I would see if anyone else here might know where this is written in black and white. Say you have a large room with 20+ heads, or an open warehouse area. The building is fully sprinkled, and everything else is normal / SOP. They have a fire in this room/area, and lets say, two heads activate and control the fire. The question is, how many of the heads do you have to replace? Is there a code requirements for this that exists? I found some anecdotal evidence from someone in the industry with more experience than I, but the only thing close I could find in the codes was the NFPA 25 stuff relating to loading on sprinkler heads. I looked at NFPA's list of codes online, and saw some that may have some information on this (NFPA 902 and 904) but they were withdrawn in 2001, and I cannot view them online. Obviously from a liability standpoint, you would want to replace as many of the heads as possible, if not all of them, but what if you had a 500K SQFT warehouse that was all open, would you want to replace all of them? Here's the information that I got from my friend who's been around a while. -If they're link heads, you want to probably replace all the heads, since the acids in the smoke will impact the solder -Look at the burn/smoke radius from the fire, and replace the heads around this area for the next two rings of sprinkler heads. He couldn't tell me where this came from, it was just the way it was always done. Is there a hard and fast rule for this? Is it an insurance carrier or head manufacturer judgement call? Would rapid heating and cooling cause glass bulbs to weaken or micro-fracture down the road? Thanks, Benjamin Young -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/93248633/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Replacing heads after a fire
But here's a follow-up question - who is the appropriate individual to make this determination? In my opinion this is not the sprinkler contractor. Please read the word not as if I had capitalized it. Just my opinion. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Replacing heads after a fire 2 is all required in your example, well if you want to return to service. The heat cooling cycle of the glass bulbs are repeated cycles to very near operating temperature as I understand it. One more cycle if it takes 100's or more cycles won't make a difference. The first 99 are the problem. On the creep of solder its sustained temperatures near operation as I understand it. This is a problem not a single fire. On the acid - well smoke comes in all flavors. I'm certainly no chemist but with that logic why are we not replacing the structural components or the plumbing etc.? Weren't they also damaged by the acid smoke? I think where acid is an issue is in sensitive electronics. Think of the difference in surface area. And I don't understand the burn/smoke radius part. The burn radius of a sprinkler controlled fire is on the order of 1 to ten's of feet. The smoke is often the entire building. Not sure you need to go next door and replace sprinkler head to get 2 rings past, lol. What I typically see is out of an abundance of caution replace the fused heads and the first ring around. But I don't think it has any technical merit. Once the fitter is there a couple more heads is cheap to make everyone feel good. In the end I wouldn't balk if you replace the 2 and if someone pays you for more, good for you. Good discussion item. Often we don't get truly new things to banter about on this forum. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Replacing heads after a fire This was a hypothetical question asked by one of our inspectors the other day, and I did not know the answer. Thought I would see if anyone else here might know where this is written in black and white. Say you have a large room with 20+ heads, or an open warehouse area. The building is fully sprinkled, and everything else is normal / SOP. They have a fire in this room/area, and lets say, two heads activate and control the fire. The question is, how many of the heads do you have to replace? Is there a code requirements for this that exists? I found some anecdotal evidence from someone in the industry with more experience than I, but the only thing close I could find in the codes was the NFPA 25 stuff relating to loading on sprinkler heads. I looked at NFPA's list of codes online, and saw some that may have some information on this (NFPA 902 and 904) but they were withdrawn in 2001, and I cannot view them online. Obviously from a liability standpoint, you would want to replace as many of the heads as possible, if not all of them, but what if you had a 500K SQFT warehouse that was all open, would you want to replace all of them? Here's the information that I got from my friend who's been around a while. -If they're link heads, you want to probably replace all the heads, since the acids in the smoke will impact the solder -Look at the burn/smoke radius from the fire, and replace the heads around this area for the next two rings of sprinkler heads. He couldn't tell me where this came from, it was just the way it was always done. Is there a hard and fast rule for this? Is it an insurance carrier or head manufacturer judgement call? Would rapid heating and cooling cause glass bulbs to weaken or micro-fracture down the road? Thanks, Benjamin Young -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/93248633/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: Replacing heads after a fire
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Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
I work for an AHJ in a very sunny southern state. I am currently reviewing plans for a building that requires sprinkler through our city ordinance. The owner swears to me his insurance carrier is increasing his rates if sprinklers are installed because they will cause excessive water damage. I told him he hasn't seen water damage until we open our handlines and really let the water flow!!! Dave Herbert Fire Life Safety Plan Reviewer Retired from State of NJ now working in the beautiful warm south! Sent from my iPhone On Jan 17, 2013, at 14:25, Craig Leadbetter craigleadbet...@gmail.com wrote: Since we see that so much construction these day is strictly Code driven does anyone still sell the fact that the insurance savings for the installation of the sprinkler system with have a generally fast return. Does anyone have a general time frame for cost recovery? Do insurance agents give competent answers to the cost savings since this is taking money from their commissions? -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/77094712/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
This is along the lines of what I was thinking about the misinformation that is out on the street. This may be an issue that needs some very public attention with the owners, insurance agents and architects/engineers. Not only is the fact that people are so concerned with what what does it cost me today that ultimately there are building being built that may not be as safe as they could be as still save the owner money in the long run. -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Fyremarshal34 fyremarsha...@yahoo.comwrote: I work for an AHJ in a very sunny southern state. I am currently reviewing plans for a building that requires sprinkler through our city ordinance. The owner swears to me his insurance carrier is increasing his rates if sprinklers are installed because they will cause excessive water damage. I told him he hasn't seen water damage until we open our handlines and really let the water flow!!! Dave Herbert Fire Life Safety Plan Reviewer Retired from State of NJ now working in the beautiful warm south! Sent from my iPhone On Jan 17, 2013, at 14:25, Craig Leadbetter craigleadbet...@gmail.com wrote: Since we see that so much construction these day is strictly Code driven does anyone still sell the fact that the insurance savings for the installation of the sprinkler system with have a generally fast return. Does anyone have a general time frame for cost recovery? Do insurance agents give competent answers to the cost savings since this is taking money from their commissions? -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/77094712/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/a970fdbd/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Sprinkler cost Pay Back
There is one insurance company that offers a payback time of infinity. If we were to present to this insurance company our highly-protected risk that we asked be insured against fire without sprinklers...this insurance company would say-- ' without sprinkers your occupancy in many cases will be unqualified to receive our underwriting.' scot deal Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/7e9d1371/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside
Why does the GC care about cost of maintenance? Bv -Original message- From: Bobby Gillett gillet...@keyfireprotection.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 14:32:17 GMT+00:00 Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside Some of the black pipe these days comes with a coating on it, I believe for corrosion resistance. I also believe that painted grooved fittings are acceptable in this application. Please correct me if I am wrong. If it is an FM project, all dry system piping is to be galvanized. I would definitely explain the maintenance costs later and the frequency of such if he pushes the black pipe - a little higher cost now can save a lot later. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell www.keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/053dfcc7/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
Scott, Even FM will provide insurance when you do not comply with all of their recommendations. There is certainly a cost factor associated with this. They recommend that you sprinkler to their standard but if you don't here is the increased cost of your premium. Years ago fire protection was sometimes sold to owners based on the fact that payback may be as little as a couple of years. If this is still the case I would think that more owners should be looking more seriously at fire protection rather than the code say it is not required. We see the use of it is not required by Code many times not only in the commercial work but also in the design of schools as well. Personally I would rather see the school have a sprinkler system that an exit out of each classroom where the student may be able to escape a fire in the building. -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:48 PM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: There is one insurance company that offers a payback time of infinity. If we were to present to this insurance company our highly-protected risk that we asked be insured against fire without sprinklers...this insurance company would say-- ' without sprinkers your occupancy in many cases will be unqualified to receive our underwriting.' scot deal Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/7e9d1371/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/ee92313d/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
Dave, An insurance agent in a local jurisdiction recently stated the same fact to an owner of a mixed use commercial. The insurance company's home office was contacted and that agent was set straight and a 10% discount across the entire premium was provided. If the owner is not willing to challenge the agent, call the corporate and have them put that in writing. Then tell the owner to shop insurance companies. The market is generally sprinkler smart. Regards, Tim Frankenberg Tim Frankenberg, CT, CFPS Fire Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Company LLC 5757 Phantom Drive, Ste. 125 Hazelwood, MO 63042 314-595-6900 800-325-3936 www.pottersignal.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Craig Leadbetter Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back This is along the lines of what I was thinking about the misinformation that is out on the street. This may be an issue that needs some very public attention with the owners, insurance agents and architects/engineers. Not only is the fact that people are so concerned with what what does it cost me today that ultimately there are building being built that may not be as safe as they could be as still save the owner money in the long run. -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Fyremarshal34 fyremarsha...@yahoo.comwrote: I work for an AHJ in a very sunny southern state. I am currently reviewing plans for a building that requires sprinkler through our city ordinance. The owner swears to me his insurance carrier is increasing his rates if sprinklers are installed because they will cause excessive water damage. I told him he hasn't seen water damage until we open our handlines and really let the water flow!!! Dave Herbert Fire Life Safety Plan Reviewer Retired from State of NJ now working in the beautiful warm south! Sent from my iPhone On Jan 17, 2013, at 14:25, Craig Leadbetter craigleadbet...@gmail.com wrote: Since we see that so much construction these day is strictly Code driven does anyone still sell the fact that the insurance savings for the installation of the sprinkler system with have a generally fast return. Does anyone have a general time frame for cost recovery? Do insurance agents give competent answers to the cost savings since this is taking money from their commissions? -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/77094712/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/a970fdbd/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/dec299c9/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Black Steel Pipe Outside
Bruce, Seems to make good business sense that a Good GC would be looking out for their costumer for the long term. I would think that if the owner is spending a significant amount of money in just a couple of years because the product that was installed shouldn't have been, then may they are not going to get the call on the next project. I would certainly think that the Engineer of Record for the project should have more to say about the products that are installed than the GC would. -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Bruce Verhei bver...@comcast.net wrote: Why does the GC care about cost of maintenance? Bv -Original message- From: Bobby Gillett gillet...@keyfireprotection.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 14:32:17 GMT+00:00 Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside Some of the black pipe these days comes with a coating on it, I believe for corrosion resistance. I also believe that painted grooved fittings are acceptable in this application. Please correct me if I am wrong. If it is an FM project, all dry system piping is to be galvanized. I would definitely explain the maintenance costs later and the frequency of such if he pushes the black pipe - a little higher cost now can save a lot later. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell www.keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/053dfcc7/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/79c95a87/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside
The GC doesn't so much, but they can pass that on to their customer, the owner, when/if he is trying to explain the difference in cost of black vs galv. If he is a good GC he would care about what is getting put in the owners building, as he is selling this to the owner. Yes it'll come back on us, but it'll come back on him. Its how you do or don't get repeat business or how you get a bad name. Maybe I think too much, but everything I try to sell, I at least try to educate who I am selling it too if I feel there is a better option or they made a bad decision. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell www.keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside Why does the GC care about cost of maintenance? Bv -Original message- From: Bobby Gillett gillet...@keyfireprotection.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 14:32:17 GMT+00:00 Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside Some of the black pipe these days comes with a coating on it, I believe for corrosion resistance. I also believe that painted grooved fittings are acceptable in this application. Please correct me if I am wrong. If it is an FM project, all dry system piping is to be galvanized. I would definitely explain the maintenance costs later and the frequency of such if he pushes the black pipe - a little higher cost now can save a lot later. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell www.keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/053dfcc7/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http
Re: Black Steel Pipe Outside
My relativly new time share, beachside in Florida has black steel sprinkler lines in the lower level open parking - hangers and pipe are just rusting away…. just makes me mad that it was allow to be installed that way by the building inspector. On my Mac, not my office computer... David Toshio Williams, PE, FPE, LEED AP O+M direct 218-279-2436 cell 218-310-2446 david.willi...@lhbcorp.commailto:david.willi...@lhbcorp.com Performance Driven Design On Jan 17, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Bobby Gillett gillet...@keyfireprotection.commailto:gillet...@keyfireprotection.com wrote: The GC doesn't so much, but they can pass that on to their customer, the owner, when/if he is trying to explain the difference in cost of black vs galv. If he is a good GC he would care about what is getting put in the owners building, as he is selling this to the owner. Yes it'll come back on us, but it'll come back on him. Its how you do or don't get repeat business or how you get a bad name. Maybe I think too much, but everything I try to sell, I at least try to educate who I am selling it too if I feel there is a better option or they made a bad decision. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell www.keyfireprotection.comhttp://www.keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside Why does the GC care about cost of maintenance? Bv -Original message- From: Bobby Gillett gillet...@keyfireprotection.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 14:32:17 GMT+00:00 Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside Some of the black pipe these days comes with a coating on it, I believe for corrosion resistance. I also believe that painted grooved fittings are acceptable in this application. Please correct me if I am wrong. If it is an FM project, all dry system piping is to be galvanized. I would definitely explain the maintenance costs later and the frequency of such if he pushes the black pipe - a little higher cost now can save a lot later. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell www.keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside NFPA 13, 2007-7.8.5 Pipe and Fittings. Pipe and fittings installed on the exterior of the building or structure shall be corrosion resistant. 8.16.4.2.3 Where corrosive conditions exist or piping is exposed to the weather, corrosion-resistant types of pipe, fittings, and hangers or protective corrosion-resistant coatings shall be used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Black Steel Pipe Outside We've been asked to price up a manual dry standpipe for a fresh water marina, all pipe will exposed outdoors. Our thought is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part
RE: Black Steel Pipe Outside
is to used galvanized but the GC is trying to get us to provide raw black steel instead because he says the cut sheet doesn't say it can't be used outside. Common sense alone says this will rust in no time, does anyone know of anywhere in code or otherwise that (I've looked) that I can show this guy it's not a good idea? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Sprinkler Division bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/ Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/045f8b04/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20130117/053dfcc7/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6038 - Release Date: 01/16/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/88bea6ef/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
' Years ago fire protection was sometimes sold to owners based on the fact that payback may be as little as a couple of years. If this is still the case I would think that more owners should be looking more seriously at fire protection rather than the code say it is not required.' I was involved with a retrofit not too long ago with the owner claiming a 9 month payback. So it's still out there. The payback is based on the hazard and what they are paying. This was 100,000 sq.ft. HPS of plastics. Insurance was looking at a complete loss and replacing all the widgets and building and business interruption. Which in a rural area a full loss isn't unjustified. Now if just the building was insured clearly the payback would be very different, same cost - less insurance to save on. An office maybe not 9 month, again depends on how much or how little is insured. I can't believe a house or even a small apartment would ever have a payback on a pure retrofit. Look at your home owners insurance and hypothetically take 10%. Now add the cost of a sprinkler contractor, pump or water supply, opening up walls, patching walls and painting, factor in possible indirect costs of the family disruption during construction. The math won't work. Yes, adding at new and you are probably talking a return someday if you stay long enough. And yes DIY of part or all can significantly change the math and probably lead to a reasonable payback on the cash IF you stay in the house long enough. Isn't average 7 years or less? Obviously the math changes if you are remodeling anyway and add sprinklers. I believe only the highest risks and top level insurance are the only cases where payback would be a motivating factor. Most business aren't looking that far out anymore. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Craig Leadbetter Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 2:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back Scott, Even FM will provide insurance when you do not comply with all of their recommendations. There is certainly a cost factor associated with this. They recommend that you sprinkler to their standard but if you don't here is the increased cost of your premium. Years ago fire protection was sometimes sold to owners based on the fact that payback may be as little as a couple of years. If this is still the case I would think that more owners should be looking more seriously at fire protection rather than the code say it is not required. We see the use of it is not required by Code many times not only in the commercial work but also in the design of schools as well. Personally I would rather see the school have a sprinkler system that an exit out of each classroom where the student may be able to escape a fire in the building. -- Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette PO Box 116 Marquette, MI 49855 (O) 906-475-9955 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 craigleadbet...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 2:48 PM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: There is one insurance company that offers a payback time of infinity. If we were to present to this insurance company our highly-protected risk that we asked be insured against fire without sprinklers...this insurance company would say-- ' without sprinkers your occupancy in many cases will be unqualified to receive our underwriting.' scot deal Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac hments/20130117/7e9d1371/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/ee92313d/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
can an extended coverage pendent be used in a ceiling cloud with a slope of 3 in 12?
Brad: We have a cloud that is 5 ft higher on one end than the other? OK, as this question appears to segue from the thread can we make a case for a variance from a prescriptive sprinkler design question of mine, I will throw a dart at the question this time. Answer: Do not accept EC centered on a 20 x 20 ft ceiling cloud with 3 in 12 slope without redesign. Thoughts: I don't see EC pendants listed for slopes 2 in 12. They may be, though I am not aware of such. The challenge with this design is: a. a fire can start on the side (perpendicular to the slope) of the cloud sprinkler and the smoke wouldn't reach the link until the ceiling area above the cloud filled with smoke, b. a fire can start on the uphill side of the centered EC sprinkler, and the hot smoke again, wouldn't reach the link until the ceiling area above the cloud filled with smoke I am not comfortable with accepting this EC-sprinkler cloud design, while I was with granting a hypothetical-variance for the 4 inches of prescriptively unprotected storage in racking-with-transverse-flues every 124 inches from Bill Brooke's example. I am uncomfortable because I know less about the occupancy and use of the cloud situation than I did of a presumably storage warehouse situation. I am uncomfortable because the percentage of exposed area is higher. Is the cloud situation in a hospital with patients located on floors above? Is *any sleeping *occupancy on a floor above this level? What are the occupancies in this building? Is the construction type combustible? Are the exits conforming to prescriptions? What is the simple, exit travel time from this floor without decision dwell? Is the building sprinklered throughout? Is the building occupied 24/7? Further, the warehouse in-rack sprinkler situation presented 4 inches of prescriptively uncovered rack length on a total rack length of 10' 4 racking; that is approximately 3% uncovered. In the ceiling cloud situation, easily more than 33% of the cloud is uncovered by the centered EC, because hot smoke from most small-area-fires will not reach the EC sprinkler until after a significant delay. Acceptance criteria are not set in stone. What may be an acceptable risk to assume for stakeholders in Kinshasa, may not be the answer in Topeka, and a no-go in Toledo also. Risk tolerance is stakeholder dependent and requires good judgment. What *is * good judgment? Ask our peers to find the answer to that one, which is exactly what we are doing here. scot deal Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/5b44b3b7/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
Thank you, Craig. I would accept an exit directly-to-the-outside for classrooms in one-story-on-grade schools instead of a sprinkler system, even (or especially) in cold country, but we rarely see the exit option either. scot deal Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/ff557449/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
Fine, maybe addresses life safety. But your presumption is the kids, especially the small ones will find the door vs. hide under a desk. Doors doesn't address that. And your door doesn't address the $$$ used to build the school and perhaps replace it. Usually tax payers. If it's your school fine, your money. If it's my money, not fine. And you leave out the risk to fire fighters which again doors do nothing for. I'm not fully on board yet with sprinklers save the environment. There is a cost to the environment to manufacture the sprinkler system and I don't know with the rate of fire if the cost is offset by a damage of the fire. But again doors either way don't address the environment. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back Thank you, Craig. I would accept an exit directly-to-the-outside for classrooms in one-story-on-grade schools instead of a sprinkler system, even (or especially) in cold country, but we rarely see the exit option either. scot deal Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/ff557449/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: can an extended coverage pendent be used in a ceiling cloud with a slope of 3 in 12?
Scot, I think there are some interesting aspects to this question without too much analysis of occupancy, type of operation, etc-- in other words, straight from 13, but with a little extra thought. The job I mentioned in the earlier post was an auditorium with a full compliment below the roof deck. There were some ceiling clouds for acoustical reasons at various elevations and various slopes. I think they were 16x16. (if they were 20x20, with any slope, and we spaced based on slope, it would exceed 20). As you say, no E.C. listed for greater than 2 in 12 Ceiling slope, BUT!: I think that listing pertains to the single compliment of heads at the Main Ceiling, which is the point of transition from mostly vertical to mostly horizontal heat flow. A fire would have to be under the cloud for the head in it to activate. In fact, the head would activate even if the cloud was straight up and down, if the fire was directly below it, I think. It just strikes me that, at first thought, a 16x16 cloud at 2+ in 12 would require 4 heads instead of 1. I appreciate your input. ps-- ceiling clouds, being an obstruction, project a foot print on the floor. if a 20x20 cloud sloped enough, that footprint would not exceed 48, so not even 1 head required! :) Brad ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/752b5d60/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Sprinkler cost Pay Back
and objections, borders on what can be defined as sociopathic (translate: lacking empathy). scot deal Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering [1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-15/presenting-working-poor-america -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130118/4a8fb235/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/752b5d60/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130117/b5e56d99/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
