RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger
Isn't it the building code that requires sprinklers? If nothing in 409 is applicable to the type of hangar then it would be EH-I IAW #13, wouldn't it? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Andy Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger If 409 does not require sprinklers, look at the rest of the building. Most have office or shop areas. With a mixed use building and sprinklers not required for the hanger portion you probably still have misc. storage in that area. The other areas would drive the design. Why would you need to jump to a higher level of protection in 409 if it does not apply. I would recommend that they bring a larger supply in if use of the building changes. Andy -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger After reading through 409, I agree with you Ed. It really seems that this particular instance is left up to the local AHJ. Since this hanger is not required to be sprinklered per local code, I feel that we fall back on to NFPA 13. We have a call into the State FM for his direction. We'll see what he says. BK -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Vining Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Group III Aircraft Hanger Help me with this. I do not see any requirement in Chapter 8 of 409 which would require sprinklering of a Group III hangar. Chapter 12 does not apply to Group III hangars. If sprinklers are required for this installation, where is it written. Ed Vining On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Daniel Wilder daniel.wil...@wsfp.uswrote: It's been a while since my last hangar so here I go... 409-11' Ed 13-10' Ed. 11-10' Ed. The term fixed fire protection system leads me to believe a definition is in order...searching through 13, many of the references to fixed has the following ...sprinklers and other fixed water-based (13-8.16.1.1.2.1) ...water spray fixed system...(13-21.9.1.1(2)) A fixed water deluge...(13-21.17.1.1) ...of any sprinkler or fixed water spray system...(13-21.27.1.1) 11 (10' ed)-1.2.1...or maintaining fixed, semifixed, or portable... 11 3.3.17.2-Fixed System. A complete installation in which foam is piped from a central foam station, discharging through fixed delivery outlets... 11 4.8 System Types - (1) Fixed No definition in 13 to speak of. 409 8.9.1.1=Fixed System Since the other chapters specifically allow other NFPA's I am not sure why this one doesn't come out and say it other than reading through the A8.1.1 it sounds like the construction of these hangers lends more weight to the prudence of the Local AHJ and how they want to approach these. My conclusion is since 13 almost always separates these two definitions and many of the 409 references send you directly to a specific standard and there is a fairly clear definition in 11, you cannot use 13 in this instance. Chapter 12 (unfueled aircraft) is new to 409 and allows a .17/5000 w/ 500 GPM hose with some other criteria but you stated the aircraft would have fuel. I would also like to see another viewpoint on this to make sure I'm in the right direction... Dan -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger Now that I've had time to digest your comments Daniel, I'm still at somewhat of a loss. According to the annex for 8.9.1.1 which states to the effect, not all building codes require fire protection systems in Group III aircraft hangers. When we approached the local AHJ with the question, what do you require?, he simply answered with whatever NFPA says. So now, if I'm understanding this correctly, which I'm not sure that I am, NFPA 409 provides the statement fixed fire protection systems shall be installed where required by and in accordance with locally adopted building codes. Therefore, I'm making the leap that I refer back to NFPA 13 which is where I would normally go for unfueled aircraft and use a .3/2500. Since this is a fueled aircraft I'm going to say that I should use a .4/2500. This isn't based on anything other than my gut. If anyone has another plan or idea, please sound off. BK -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
RE: Pipe Expansion
Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Butler type Truss/Purlins
And hopefully your proposal had an exclusion something like Span hangers to distribute load to more than one structural member. It is assumed that the structure can adequately support the fire sprinkler system without such hangers. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Butler type Truss/Purlins On these Pre-Engineered Buildings(PEB) you need to seek the building contractor's input on attachment points. You cannot just hang, or support or brace loads at any old location. The GC or whoever is overseeing the project should have the PEB contractor/provider include details relating to support limitations of dead loads. The biggest problem with these type of buildings is that during the project design phase, structural loading for systems such as fire protection are either left out completely or grossly underestimated. In the couple I've had to deal with recently the PEB mfgr had to provide additional bracing between purlins to support bracing points and hangers. The other route that may be possible is to layout your system, show hangers and brace points and then ask the PEB mfgr to review your layout and see if there are any issues with your loading or if additional steel is needed to accommodate your systems. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 11:11 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Butler type Truss/Purlins Has anyone ever had a project using the Butler Truss/Purlin? These are shaped like metal roof deck on top (like a flat M), same on the bottom but inverted (like a flat W) with joist webbing between. There is insulation on top and standing seam roof attached directly to them. They show all hanger attachments on the bottom chord at the panel point, as there is no apparent way to attach to the top. I'm wondering what types of hanger attachments you might have used, and how in the world would you attach the seismic to the top of the structure on the braces attaching adjacent to the piping? Thanks ahead of time, Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Butler type Truss/Purlins
The 250# is so a sprinkler fitter can swing on the pipe. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Butler type Truss/Purlins The GC tried to hang the sprinkler contractor but the contractor kept Is this why they have the additional 250# in the hanger requirements Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NON-METALLIC COUPLING
How about dielectric flanges? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 9:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: NON-METALLIC COUPLING I am working on a military project. I have to provide a non-metallic coupling on one side of wall. It is a penetration into a secured area. Any ideas on what to use as a non-metallic coupling for 4 sch 40 pipe? -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 Office (480) 505-9271 Fax (866) 430-6107 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Physical Science :)
NICET is going to attach electronic exhibits to the questions that require reference materials not allowed in the test room. It is my understanding that the only books allowed will be 13, 13R and 13D, no handbooks and no calculator. An electronic calculator will be available on the computer screen. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 7:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Someone can steal your car no matter what steps you take. Does that mean you leave it unlocked with keys in it while parking on the streets of the city? For the certification process to be meaningful, the integrity of the system must be maintained within applicable requirements. And to test ability to do calcs, and apply fundamental formulas, you must prove that without software- just as experienced folks can size up a system at a site without a calculator by KNOWING how the variables work with each other. That doesn't come from inputting data and pushing a button, any more than inputting data and pushing a button proves an understanding of the fundamental equations. So, NO, you can't use all your tools. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Sure, it's a time consuming process to update and change, but really, we should be able to use the tools we use on a regular daily basis in the execution of our job. Anyone here still doing their drawings with ink on fabric, doing grid calcs on a pad with a pencil? Doubt it, you wouldn't be in business. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat no matter what methods or procedures are in place. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program as you might think. While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. It's a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry that puts food on your table. NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them to the exam and on Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and memories, like then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri and observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Really, all of our codes are now in digital format. Much easier to search and cheaper for the company. NICET needs to come into the 21st century with this. It's just crazy lugging 30-40 lbs of reference books to a test. Had one test that was on 2nd floor and had to tote the load up the stairs. Just plain ridiculous. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102
RE: Physical Science :)
Have to memorize the formulas I guess. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 7:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Physical Science :) WHAT? What about the math questions, etc that are not found anywhere close to any NFPA documents? On 11/3/2010 9:25 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: NICET is going to attach electronic exhibits to the questions that require reference materials not allowed in the test room. It is my understanding that the only books allowed will be 13, 13R and 13D, no handbooks and no calculator. An electronic calculator will be available on the computer screen. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 7:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Someone can steal your car no matter what steps you take. Does that mean you leave it unlocked with keys in it while parking on the streets of the city? For the certification process to be meaningful, the integrity of the system must be maintained within applicable requirements. And to test ability to do calcs, and apply fundamental formulas, you must prove that without software- just as experienced folks can size up a system at a site without a calculator by KNOWING how the variables work with each other. That doesn't come from inputting data and pushing a button, any more than inputting data and pushing a button proves an understanding of the fundamental equations. So, NO, you can't use all your tools. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Sure, it's a time consuming process to update and change, but really, we should be able to use the tools we use on a regular daily basis in the execution of our job. Anyone here still doing their drawings with ink on fabric, doing grid calcs on a pad with a pencil? Doubt it, you wouldn't be in business. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat no matter what methods or procedures are in place. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program as you might think. While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. It's a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry that puts food on your table. NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them to the exam and on Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and memories, like then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri and observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical
RE: Physical Science :)
Yep. The examples I saw had 8-10 pages from a standard like 409. No index so you have to hunt for the text. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) So they are going to provide the reference material excerpts related to the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) NICET is going to attach electronic exhibits to the questions that require reference materials not allowed in the test room. It is my understanding that the only books allowed will be 13, 13R and 13D, no handbooks and no calculator. An electronic calculator will be available on the computer screen. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 7:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Someone can steal your car no matter what steps you take. Does that mean you leave it unlocked with keys in it while parking on the streets of the city? For the certification process to be meaningful, the integrity of the system must be maintained within applicable requirements. And to test ability to do calcs, and apply fundamental formulas, you must prove that without software- just as experienced folks can size up a system at a site without a calculator by KNOWING how the variables work with each other. That doesn't come from inputting data and pushing a button, any more than inputting data and pushing a button proves an understanding of the fundamental equations. So, NO, you can't use all your tools. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Sure, it's a time consuming process to update and change, but really, we should be able to use the tools we use on a regular daily basis in the execution of our job. Anyone here still doing their drawings with ink on fabric, doing grid calcs on a pad with a pencil? Doubt it, you wouldn't be in business. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat no matter what methods or procedures are in place. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program as you might think. While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. It's a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry that puts food on your table. NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them
RE: Oversized Fire Pump
Some issues other than those already mentioned are higher horsepower, electrical conductor size, higher locked rotor amps. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 12:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Oversized Fire Pump A sprinkler system was designed for a fire pump with rated capacity 250 gpm at 60 psi and water storage tanks. Due to a mix-up, the contractor installed a 500 gpm at 70 psi fire pump. The suction and discharge piping are 4, sized for the 250 gpm pump. The sprinkler system is also designed for the 250 gpm pump, the maximum system demand being 347 gpm @ 43.9 psi. This became known when the contractor was installing the flow meter, which required 6 inch piping. What are the effects of the oversized fire pump? Can the system remain, using enlargers and reducers on the 4 pipe to accommodate the flow meter? Any effect on the water storage requirement? I will be checking NFPA 20, but would appreciate any input from the forum. Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Valve house requirement?
I hope there isn't there is a standard that requires an enclosure. We recently installed some systems at a copper mine with the AFFF tanks, risers and other stuff outside. It is pretty easy to build a rack from Unistrut and plywood to mount panels etc... One drawback might be the shelf life of the AFFF concentrate but that can be monitored with regular testing. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Valve house requirement? I have a situation where the powers that be want to just locate the fire risers, foam tanks, control panels and all assorted trim and accessories for two FP systems outside, exposed to the elements. The environment is a chemical plant in the SE. Freezing is not an issue and it's on private property not accessible to the public. The one hazard is a multi-level process structure w/ multiple deluge systems, the other is fuel storage tanks with the foam protection. I've given some verbiage from NFPA 13 concerning protection of equipment but since someone who did the initial write-up forgot the houses, the owner believes they are not needed. Any specific code requirements? Their idea is to order weather proof equipment. I guess they're going to hang the control panels by helium balloons. Craig L. Prahl ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Valve house requirement?
I have done outdoor systems in pipe racks etc... at refineries along the Texas coast (hurricanes). The electrical devices had to be EP. The valves were cast steel epoxy lined but that was probably because of the water supply. At the copper mine the specialty materials were already purchased. We furnished the pipe and did the install. There shouldn't be a problem if the electrical equipment has the proper NEMA rating. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Valve house requirement? When you're in an area subject to hurricanes and you're protecting flammable liquid operations and storage, is it still ok to just let all the equipment sit out in the yard? Ron, when you ordered equipment, did you order anything special for the outdoor application or just off the shelf items? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Valve house requirement? I hope there isn't there is a standard that requires an enclosure. We recently installed some systems at a copper mine with the AFFF tanks, risers and other stuff outside. It is pretty easy to build a rack from Unistrut and plywood to mount panels etc... One drawback might be the shelf life of the AFFF concentrate but that can be monitored with regular testing. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Valve house requirement? I have a situation where the powers that be want to just locate the fire risers, foam tanks, control panels and all assorted trim and accessories for two FP systems outside, exposed to the elements. The environment is a chemical plant in the SE. Freezing is not an issue and it's on private property not accessible to the public. The one hazard is a multi-level process structure w/ multiple deluge systems, the other is fuel storage tanks with the foam protection. I've given some verbiage from NFPA 13 concerning protection of equipment but since someone who did the initial write-up forgot the houses, the owner believes they are not needed. Any specific code requirements? Their idea is to order weather proof equipment. I guess they're going to hang the control panels by helium balloons. Craig L. Prahl ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NFPA 15 - minimum pipe sizes
Have used swaged nipples in the past but not so many in the 1/2 size. Back in
the day when doing deluge systems and being limited to extra heavy screwed
galvanized fittings we had to take what we could get. There weren't a lot tee's
available that reduced on the run so we used swaged nipples for pipe size
reductions. Our main concern was availability and making the hydraulics
balance. If the installer didn't have a 1x1/2 ell he would probably not
hesitate to use a swaged nipple and a 1/2 ell. My old little black (Grinnell)
book listed 1x3/4 through 1x1/4 available.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 1:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: NFPA 15 - minimum pipe sizes
my first question would be is this an academic exercise or are some of
the things that seem nuts to me just striking me as such because
they're not common practices in our industry but may be in his? If
it's just the former I have no desire to spend time finding references
until he buys me expensive scotch and we become friends. Once we
determine it's the latter then I would say what he proposes are not
common as we consider them and so no, you can not do those things
(swaging, considering short shelf made nipples fittings, etc.). More
specifically on a couple of issues one could infer from 13 that 1/2
nipples are not generally considered fittings and are therefore not
allowed because of the one and only small exception, belaboredly
spelled out, where a 1/2 nipple up to four inches long may be used.
The second specific is that, although I said I wasn't going to look in
books I did and going back to '89 ('91 being when hydraulics really
came into it's own) I found nothing outside the schedule tables
limiting piping to a minimum size of one inch although I think anyone
would be hard pressed to get any kind of decent hydraulics at less. So
know he's my friend and he owes me scotch. And please someone find a
reference to this one inch minimum size thing.
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 3:14 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote:
here is a question posed on another forum, though
it might be more appropriat to this one. I will forward responses
to the author, who is working in the oil and gas industry.
NFPA 15 specifies a minimum pipe size of 1-inch for black steel or
galvanized pipe, but under the fittings heading does not have a specific
minimum size. The end fitting on a branch line is presumably permitted to be
a 1-inch x 1/2-inch or 1-inch x 3/4-inch reducer or elbow to accommodate the
spray nozzle.
Would a 1-inch x 1/2-inch swedge reducer, followed by a 1/2-inch x 1/2-inch
elbow to accommodate the 1/2-inch nozzle be acceptable under the intent of
NFPA 15? The argument is that the swedge is a fitting so is not restricted
in size as for a pipe. And the 1/2-inch x 1/2-inch end fitting is therefore
acceptable also.
To take this argument even further, would a short, say 4-inch to 6-inch
length 1/2-inch pipe nipple be acceptable as a fitting. Pipe nipples are
commonly considered to be fittings by piping designers, as they are stocked
off the shelf.
I had thought NFPA 13 also restricted pipe sizes to 1-inch minimum, although
I have been unable to find the specific reference other than in the pipe
schedule tables. If someone can point out the specific minimum size
restriction in NFPA 13 for hydraulically calculated systems I would
appreciate it.
scot deal
excelsior fire
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405
rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)
Member:
AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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RE: ESFR Dry Pendents
Viking supplies two pieces of foam about 3/4 thick that is 6 diameter. It goes on top of the freezer panel and against the ceiling on the inside. I just wanted to see if any forumites had some real world experience with these things. This our first time using them. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: ESFR Dry Pendents Ron, I don't have any specific experience but think this through. If you insulate the dry barrel you have effectively created a situation where the cold from the freezer dissipates from the barrel slower than it would otherwise and exacerbates the chances that the cold will migrate into the wet portion of the system at a greater rate and thereby run the risk of freezing the wet section. I think you'd be better off with a foam donut at the point where the dry barrel enters the freezer box to mitigate against moisture running down the barrel but I'd check with Viking first. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote: Has anyone had experience with the Viking ESFR dry pendent? We have been asked by the building owner if there is any problem with condensation forming and running into the freezer from the ambient area above. We have installed them according to Vikings' installation instructions so we are hoping everything will be fine. The owner wanted the pipe leg above the freezer box to be insulated, Viking says no. It may be dry here but the temp difference on a hot day could be -10F to +120F. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48
We call them feel good sprinklers. Some jurisdictions make us put them in while others do not. The heads at the deck will almost certainly active first preventing the water shielded heads from operating. If it is light or ordinary hazard and the obstructions are not structural the heads aren't required, are they? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 12:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 But what is a pipe rack more than 48 wide with space between pipes, if not an open grid ceiling? If it looks like a duck and quack's like a duck, treat it like a duck! Just cause it’s a goose, doesn't mean that it's really any different than a duck. We quite often see pipe racks that are in corridors and wall to wall. At some locations they have only pipe in half at others they are full. Sometimes there is a conduit rack below them. We use water shielded heads below and SSU's above. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jim.robe...@fluor.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 1:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 George, I was thinking (a bad practice for me) that the 70% was for open grid ceilings. It would be hard to have 70% open in a pipe rack. Jim James L (Jim) Roberts, PE | FLUOR | Principal Fire Protection Engineer – Central Engineering | jim.robe...@fluor.com | IODC 20.5149 | O +1.864.281.5149 | www.fluor.com From: George Church for...@ptd.net To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: 10/04/2010 03:21 PM Subject:RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 Sent by:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org I believe I could root around and POINT TO WHERE OTHERS WROTE 70% open, and I believe it was those rocket scientists at FM Global. The caps are for emphasis that I didn't make a judgment call, I know where to find something defensible. PLEASE realize that this was a compliment to FM, no sarcasm at all. Last week's tour did nothing but reinforce the already positive impression I have of FM Global. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [ mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jim.robe...@fluor.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 I can't shed any light on the banner situations, but I am interested to know what forumites normally consider for minimum gap between pipes on a pipe rack exceeding 48 before they have to be considered a solid obstruction. Thanks, James L (Jim) Roberts, PE/SET | FLUOR | Principal Fire Protection Engineer – Central Engineering | jim.robe...@fluor.com | IODC 20.5149 | O +1.864.281.5149 | www.fluor.com From: craig.pr...@ch2m.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: 10/04/2010 02:25 PM Subject:RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 Sent by:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org What kind of occupancy? If these banners could come loose and fall would it cause an egress issue for occupants trying to exit the area in an emergency? Essentially it sounds like these banners are creating a sub-level ceiling below the sprinklers. I believe in one of the previous discussions it was mentioned about these types of items being suspended with some type of fusible link so that they could drop out of the way of the sprinkler discharge in a fire event. Other issue is if they would not drop out of the way would they hold water from a sprinkler to the point where the banner could either dump a large amount of water on person below or fill to the point it could create an issue with the structure's ability to support the weight? What will 18 below the heads accomplish? Suggestion: Put the banners on the wall. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [ mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 12:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 I recall this has been discussed, but not recently. Is there guidance anywhere as to how much gap needs to be between obstructions (each individual obstruction being no more than 48 wide) so that sprinklers are not needed beneath them? More specifically, I have a project where
RE: Deluge Nozzles
I looked through my old engineers reference book that I got at Grinnell in the early 70's and found nothing with an A126 number on it. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fire Protection Services Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 5:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Deluge Nozzles I tried that prior to this forum. Nothing came up with that number. Thanks for your reply Chris, At that time,the deluge nozzles of choice were mfg. by ASCOA (Automatic Sprinkler Corporation of America) or Grinnell.Try a search on line as I have misplaced any data sheets I may have had (product of age,etc.) 8-) Lamar Vaughn I am trying to find some info on a 1963 Deluge system nozzle. The only info I can find is A156 SPRAY NOZZLE ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Deluge Nozzles
In the past I have used many off brand (not G of ASCOA) nozzles from Lechler and Bete so you may have something not intended for FP. Back then there wasn't much of a selection. Mostly just uprights, downrights and vertical sidewalls. Grinnell only had a few different deluge nozzles like cooling tower, EA1, D3 and D4, that was about it. We used to use a lot different orifice sizes to make things balance so you may have a tough time doing a recalc with new nozzles on existing pipe. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fire Protection Services Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:49 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Deluge Nozzles I had someone send me a data sheet but it was for a F1 Nozzle, still no luck on the A156. I guess worst case scenario, they would have to change the old nozzles with new. My drawing date is 8-5-1963 so it may be too old. Thanks for your reply -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 8:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Deluge Nozzles I looked through my old engineers reference book that I got at Grinnell in the early 70's and found nothing with an A126 number on it. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fire Protection Services Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 5:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Deluge Nozzles I tried that prior to this forum. Nothing came up with that number. Thanks for your reply Chris, At that time,the deluge nozzles of choice were mfg. by ASCOA (Automatic Sprinkler Corporation of America) or Grinnell.Try a search on line as I have misplaced any data sheets I may have had (product of age,etc.) 8-) Lamar Vaughn I am trying to find some info on a 1963 Deluge system nozzle. The only info I can find is A156 SPRAY NOZZLE ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3168 - Release Date: 10/01/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Dual Purpose Fire Pump - Hydrants and Sprinklers
Fire flow is from IFC Appendix B not NFPA. As far as I know 1500 gpm is the minimum fire flow for any property. The inside/outside hose flow added to sprinkler flow has nothing to do with fire flow from hydrants, they are two completely separate issues. A reduction in fire flow is allowed for fully sprinklered properties but like I said I think the minimum is 1500 gpm regardless. The uniform codes may be different. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ralphy Henderson Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Dual Purpose Fire Pump - Hydrants and Sprinklers Hello All, I was fielded a question I'm not qualified to answer and wanted to hear from people who have done it before. It concerns one fire pump feeding two hydrants and an ordinary group II sprinkler system from a water storage tank. The architect has determined a fire flow of 1000 gpm for 60 minutes for the fire hydrants. I have a few questions: 1.) From talking with civil engineers in the past I am under the impression that fire flows (found in the building codes) are an estimation of total fire water usage including hydrants and sprinkler flows. If this is the case would the size of the water storage tank be based solely on the fire flows established by the architect? Or should the fire sprinkler demand be added to the water storage size? 2.) If the fire sprinkler demand ends up being greater than the established fire flow of 1000gpm for 60 minutes (hypothetically) then you would use the fire sprinkler demand to size the water storage tanks, correct? If so, how would the additional water for a fire hydrant be figured in? 3.) Whose job is it to determine the above? I pushed things off onto the civil engineer since our scope of work deals strictly with the design and installation of the fire sprinkler system and the fire pump shop drawings. Thanks, Ralph ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp
Diesel Pump Engine RPM
NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Area Reduction
First thing I would do is send a change order for the cost impact if the requirements were not in the original specifications. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:30 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Area Reduction I have an engineer that is insisting on using the 1.4 rule (for no good reason) but that's beside the point, my question is am I still good to use the Area Reduction as stated in 11.2.3.2.3.1? Also, He's requiring the 10psi less residual 10% less flow (again, with no good reason) with this in mind I don't need to have a 10% cushion built into the calc's correct? Thanks! Brian Harris Design Engineer First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville NC 28078 br...@firstdefensefire.com www.firstdefensefire.com outbind://80/www.firstdefensefire.com Ph: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Test connection for forward flow testing of backflow
Main drain. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 5:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: Test connection for forward flow testing of backflow Just trying to get a consensus, Got a backflow in a building at the riser location, what is the preferred type of connection at the wall which would allow for forward flow testing? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Ammonia quenching system
Anyone have experience with an ammonia quenching systems? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential Sprinklers for Dry Pipe Systems
3.4.5 in the handbook says dry systems should only be installed where pipe is subject to freezing. I have had AHJ's use this to require a wet system in the heated areas and dry in the unheated. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 6:33 AM To: AFSA SprinklerFORUM Subject: RE: Residential Sprinklers for Dry Pipe Systems Has to be dry pipe system only and TYCO has a new Dry pendent Residential Sprinklers TY2235, TY2535 and TY2335 it's in TYCO's Rapid Response Home Fire Sprinkler System data. Mike Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:28:35 -0400 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org From: t...@fpdc.com Subject: Re: Residential Sprinklers for Dry Pipe Systems There is no dry-type residential sprinkler that I could find on the Tyco web site. Never heard of one either. Unless this is something new, he may be blowing smoke up your whoops-a-daisy. My guess is that you are going to have to use QR sprinklers and a 1950 sqft design area. Could you split the building into wet and dry systems? At 09:21 AM 7/9/2010, you wrote: Have a situation where there is a dry pipe sprinkler system being installed in a multi use building A-3, B, R-2 and S-1 Occupancies. In the R-2 portion the space above the ceiling is conditioned and I was hoping to use Listed Residential Sprinklers on return bends. Local AHJ states that only TYCO LFII Dry-Type Residential Sprinklers can be used in this area since this is the only Listed Residential Sprinkler for use on Dry Pipe Systems. Has anyone run across this situation besides me? Mike Hairfield ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Ceiling pocket
If the room (hall) is less than 300 sqft it could be classified as panel (obstructed) construction and a 22 inch deflector would be okay. Would that take care of the problem? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 7:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ceiling pocket It doesn't meet the definition provided by 3.3.4, NFPA 13 (10ed) but I think it meets the intent of the rule. You would think that since the volume of the high area is within the limits if what is required to apply the ceiling pocket rule then there would not be a significant delay in sprinkler operation for the deflector positioned below the soffit. But where do you draw the line? Using my Vulcan logic, one could apply this thinking to any small room with a soffit and I do not think this is the correct road to follow. Dewayne -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 8:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ceiling pocket Deflector will be about 14. Duct insulation and at least 1 below to get it in the fitting. At 09:25 AM 7/2/2010, you wrote: Still on first cup so.. What is the prob with 7'-1? Can the deflector be installed at 12 (even with BOD) either as upright or pend? Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 8:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Ceiling pocket I am working on a building with a 9'-3 wide corridor. Along one wall is a duct 2'-9 wide and 12 deep. The sprinkler piping in this space will be exposed. My original plan was to run a line along side of the duct with sidewalls and put pendent sprinklers under the duct. (running along the other wall is not an option.) However, the pendent sprinklers under the duct will be 7'-1 from the far wall. I was looking to see if I could apply the ceiling pocket section to this scenario and eliminate the sidewalls. The total volume of the pocket is approximately 225 cubic feet. I can't see why this wouldn't apply, but it seems an odd use of the rule. Thoughts? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2968 - Release Date: 07/01/10 13:35:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Accuracy of Hydrant Flow Test Using Pitot Diffuser
Thanks for the idea. I'll save this one. Regards, Ron Fletcher Pre Construction Services rfletc...@aerofire.com Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Avenue Phoenix, AZ 85024 Phone 623-580-7836 Fax 623-434-3420 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 10:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Accuracy of Hydrant Flow Test Using Pitot Diffuser Thanks Ron, very interesting and informative. Here is something else about flow tests I think is interesting, and might come in handy sometime for someone willing to trudge through this: say you're bidding a 4- story Comfort Inn and you need to know the water at least close enough to know 1 res head per room or 2, but all you got on you is the tapped cap w/ gage, the wrench, a 25' tape, and your comb- could you do it? Say static is 60 psi, get a decent stream going, and walk out and drop your comb across from where you think the middle of the splash is. Shut it down. Measure from the hydrant to the comb--- 16'. Measure from the the ground to the center of the butt--- 4'. The time of flight of a droplet straight down from 4' is half a second. The time of flight of a droplet shot straight out from the same height is also half a second (knowing this is the other key to applying velocity pressure correctly in calcs). If the water went 16 feet in .5 sec the velocity is 32 ft/sec x .03 ft^2= about 1 ft^3/sec, about 450 GPM, x .8 for the butt, about 360 GPM. So you got 60 and... dang it! I glanced at the residual when I was shutting down but forgot to remember it. No prob! The velocity head h=v^2/2g is 45 ft x.433= 20 psioh yea, the residual gage read 40 psi. -Original Message- From: Loren Johnson [mailto:lr...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 12:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Accuracy of Hydrant Flow Test Using Pitot Diffuser Ron, could you please send me a copy as well? Thank you. Loren Johnson - CFPS, CET The Hitchcock Co. Peoria, IL --- On Sat, 6/26/10, lamarvau...@charter.net lamarvau...@charter.net wrote: From: lamarvau...@charter.net lamarvau...@charter.net Subject: Re: Accuracy of Hydrant Flow Test Using Pitot Diffuser To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Saturday, June 26, 2010, 6:47 AM Ron , please send me a copy. Thanks Lamar Vaughn,SET Fletcher wrote: Sometime back there was a thread about flow tests and the accuracy of using diffusers with built in pitot tubes. I had said that I had an article written for the AWWA Journal on the subject. Some of you had asked for a copy of the article which I couldn't find at the time. I found it, it's been scanned and can be sent to anyone still interested. Let me know through PM or the forum and I will forward a copy. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Flex Line
The last ones I used came from a company in Denver. I order them through a local company that sells hydraulic hoses. You can contact me off forum if you want more information on the vendors but you should be able to find a local supplier that can make what you need. Of course there is no UL Listing or approval. There are rubber hose covered with a SS jacket or something similar a to a flex drop on the inside with SS jacket on the outside. Just get all concerned to approve what you use and warranty the installation not the product. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Coastal Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Flex Line Hello Sprinklerforum, I received a RFQ tonight and it calls for a flexible line to connect the Fixed Dock to the Floating Dock. They are requesting a Flange x Flange Stainless Steel Braid covered Hose for this connection. I have sent an RFI asking what has been used for other projects of this type the firm has designed. I figured I would Ask The Experts here what they have used or seen used for this in the past. Oh Yes this line is shown as about 20 feet long on the plans. I am open to suggestions... Thanks for the replies. -- Best regards, Charles Thurston Coastal Fire Protection mailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Accuracy of Hydrant Flow Test Using Pitot Diffuser
Sometime back there was a thread about flow tests and the accuracy of using diffusers with built in pitot tubes. I had said that I had an article written for the AWWA Journal on the subject. Some of you had asked for a copy of the article which I couldn't find at the time. I found it, it's been scanned and can be sent to anyone still interested. Let me know through PM or the forum and I will forward a copy. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: IBC egress distances 250'
Maybe there is something in the 2009 commentary about why it was removed? The commentary wasn't available when I ordered the codes. If anyone out there in forum land has the commentary maybe they would be kind enough to check? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: RE: IBC egress distances 250' Let me re-phrase the question, now that we in PA have adopted the 2009 I-codes. In 2006 edition we could extend egress distances from 250' to 400' by using vents. That section isn't in the 2009 edition, so we've lost the ability to efficiently build big boxes wherein I'd like to install mass quantities of ESFR sprinklers. Has anyone seen a methodology within the 2009 edition of the IBC to replace the Vent exception? That's my question. I'm aware the 2006 edition's vent exception, and have gained variances using the approach I explained in the first post. But that's not what I'm asking now, I'd solved that problem, now we have a new playbook and I can't find the one marked extended egress. Thom, the tunnel would work if a) the building was up and that was only quick way to get occupancy b) they figure how to do that under a floor capable of supporting rack storage. I can ses it now, a mini-London Underground below the warehouse, Tube stops. Mind the gap! glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: RE: IBC egress distances 250' I should re-phrase-how were we successful in maintaining increased dist? -Original Message- From: Brad [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: IBC egress distances 250' No- Section 104 allows alternate methods and materials- such as smoke modeling with timed egress analysis-- horizontal exits at 250' max would work. (btw- the previous code allowed deleting auto vents, but the travel dist. Could not be increased too) -Original Message- From: George Church [mailto:for...@ptd.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: IBC egress distances 250' Back under the 2006 IBC, we could go thru the motions of providing roof vents, get the egress increase under 1016.2 Roof Vent Increases, and then install ESFR and loose the vents, and we'd been successful in maintaining the increased egress distances (to 400'). However, while we're pretty fond of the IRC part of our new code, the 2009 IBC has totally removed the 1016.2 increase for a S1 occupancy. Now that the occasional big-box distribution center comes out for bid after the economic mess, is there another means to erect an S1 building wider than 500'? glc ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: IBC egress distances 250'
Yes. Greater than 250 ft egress up to 400 ft with smoke and heat vents. No exception for ESFR. Not George -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:49 AM To: AFSA SprinklerFORUM Subject: RE: IBC egress distances 250' George, Doesn't the 2006 IBC still require Manual Smoke and Roof Vents? Exception #2 under Section 910.1 only eliminate the AUTOMATIC Smoke Roof Vents if you use ESFR sprinklers! Mike From: for...@ptd.net To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: IBC egress distances 250' Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:50:49 -0400 Back under the 2006 IBC, we could go thru the motions of providing roof vents, get the egress increase under 1016.2 Roof Vent Increases, and then install ESFR and loose the vents, and we'd been successful in maintaining the increased egress distances (to 400'). However, while we're pretty fond of the IRC part of our new code, the 2009 IBC has totally removed the 1016.2 increase for a S1 occupancy. Now that the occasional big-box distribution center comes out for bid after the economic mess, is there another means to erect an S1 building wider than 500'? glc ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: non-supervised preaction
So is a single interlock electric release pre-action system without supervision air allowed by NFPA #13? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 11:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: non-supervised preaction In DIPA the piping is still supervised even if you have electric release which would be by HD or SD's as opposed to pneumatic release with pilot sprinklers. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 2:01 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: non-supervised preaction Would this in effect be a double interlock pre action system if the pre-action valve was controlled electronically? The system would need both the detectors to activate and release the pre-action valve, and one of the sprinkler elements to fuse before water was released? Am I picturing the set up correctly? It seems like the main issue would be that you could not get a trouble signal at the panel when one of the heads opened (or if the piping was damaged) if there was no pressure change to activate a switch. They could always use nitrogen if they are opposed to air compressors. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of lamarvau...@charter.net Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:55 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: non-supervised preaction Craig, Does this client have a problem with air compressors? I guess if you don't want to maintain supervisory air on the system then you could eliminate the air compressor. But that would be a noncompliant way of doing the system.This would then be a non-interlocked system no better than a simple dry pipe system.But then again,a dry pipe system requires an air supply.So see my original question. Lamar Vaughn,SET craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: Can someone provide commentary on the wording relating to ...air that might not be under pressure...? The client wishes to eliminate air compressors based on this wording. NFPA 13, 2010 3.4.9* Preaction Sprinkler System. A sprinkler system employing automatic sprinklers that are attached to a piping system that contains air that might or might not be under pressure, with a supplemental detection system installed in the same areas as the sprinklers Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an
RE: non-supervised preaction
So is 3.4.9 (2010) wrong when it says piping system that contains air that might or might not be under pressure. If 7 psi minimum is required how could there be a P/A system without air pressure? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of lamarvau...@charter.net Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 11:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: non-supervised preaction NFPA #13 (2002) / 7.3.2.3.2 requires supervisory air pressure on ALL preaction systems (Min. 7 psi). Fletcher wrote: So is a single interlock electric release pre-action system without supervision air allowed by NFPA #13? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 11:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: non-supervised preaction In DIPA the piping is still supervised even if you have electric release which would be by HD or SD's as opposed to pneumatic release with pilot sprinklers. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 2:01 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: non-supervised preaction Would this in effect be a double interlock pre action system if the pre-action valve was controlled electronically? The system would need both the detectors to activate and release the pre-action valve, and one of the sprinkler elements to fuse before water was released? Am I picturing the set up correctly? It seems like the main issue would be that you could not get a trouble signal at the panel when one of the heads opened (or if the piping was damaged) if there was no pressure change to activate a switch. They could always use nitrogen if they are opposed to air compressors. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of lamarvau...@charter.net Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:55 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: non-supervised preaction Craig, Does this client have a problem with air compressors? I guess if you don't want to maintain supervisory air on the system then you could eliminate the air compressor. But that would be a noncompliant way of doing the system.This would then be a non-interlocked system no better than a simple dry pipe system.But then again,a dry pipe system requires an air supply.So see my original question. Lamar Vaughn,SET craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: Can someone provide commentary on the wording relating to ...air that might not be under pressure...? The client wishes to eliminate air compressors based on this wording. NFPA 13, 2010 3.4.9* Preaction Sprinkler System. A sprinkler system employing automatic sprinklers that are attached to a piping system that contains air that might or might not be under pressure, with a supplemental detection system installed in the same areas as the sprinklers Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment
Even more interesting will be when the electrician, HVAC or ceiling guy decide they can put the head back close to where it was without a sprinkler contractor on site. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:45 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment No doubt but I'm sure it's not news you are the Kleenex and Xerox of the industry. Probably even more so than Vic couplings. What will be interesting in the future is when the original installation uses Flexheads and a retrofit company sees 'flexheads' and substitutes another brand with significantly higher friction loss. Don't see too many AHJ picking up on that one. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Norman MacDonald Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment I would like to point out that NONE of the products depicted in the attached website link are FlexHead products. The term flexhead is a registered trademark of FlexHead Industries, Inc. The FlexHead product is a 1 true-bore, fully braided and welded hose with a totally different bracketing system. Please feel free to check out our w3ebsite or contact me directly for additional information. Norman MacDonald FLEXHEAD Industries, Inc. 56 Lowland Street Hollsiton, MA 01746 (508) 893-9596 TEL (508) 893-6020 FAX nmacdon...@flexhead.com EMAIL www.flexhead.com WEBSITE This e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify me by return e-mail and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail message and any printout thereof. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment http://inspector911.com/ hi 1st mentor, others have addressed your question- I just wanted to add this about flex head installation (inspection). at the bottom of the 1st page of this site there is a 'Does this meet code' thing about flex head connectors- and comments. Thanks Vince (35 years late), Your 1st pain in the @$$ -Original Message- From: Vince Sabolik [mailto:vi...@christifire.com] Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment Good morning, forum -- I'm curious to see how sprinkler designers here handle flexible heads, namely how far do you set the line and tee from the target in in the pad. Do you use a flex head with a 90° - or straight ? listening Vince Vince Sabolik Christi Fire Protection, Inc. 11351 Pearl Road Strongsville, Ohio 44136 T 440 572-7730 F 440 572-7719 Email: mailto:vi...@christifire.comvi...@christifire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment
Tamper resistant screws seems at odds with flex location. I didn't know about the label, it's been awhile since I looked at one. Our installers really like the flexible heads, myself doing estimates not so much unless the project is in a seismic area. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Norman MacDonald Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:23 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment Ron, To address this concern, FlexHead provides tamper-resistant screws with every product that we sell. We also worked hard to get language added to NFPA13's newest publication that requires a warning labels on every flexible product stating: Caution: Relocation of this device should only be performed by qualified and/or licensed individuals that are aware of the original system design criteria, hydraulic criteria, sprinkler head listing perimeters, and knowledge of NFPA 13 installation standards. Relocation of the device without this knowledge could adversely affect the performance of this fire protection and life safety system. Norm -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment Even more interesting will be when the electrician, HVAC or ceiling guy decide they can put the head back close to where it was without a sprinkler contractor on site. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:45 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment No doubt but I'm sure it's not news you are the Kleenex and Xerox of the industry. Probably even more so than Vic couplings. What will be interesting in the future is when the original installation uses Flexheads and a retrofit company sees 'flexheads' and substitutes another brand with significantly higher friction loss. Don't see too many AHJ picking up on that one. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Norman MacDonald Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment I would like to point out that NONE of the products depicted in the attached website link are FlexHead products. The term flexhead is a registered trademark of FlexHead Industries, Inc. The FlexHead product is a 1 true-bore, fully braided and welded hose with a totally different bracketing system. Please feel free to check out our w3ebsite or contact me directly for additional information. Norman MacDonald FLEXHEAD Industries, Inc. 56 Lowland Street Hollsiton, MA 01746 (508) 893-9596 TEL (508) 893-6020 FAX nmacdon...@flexhead.com EMAIL www.flexhead.com WEBSITE This e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify me by return e-mail and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail message and any printout thereof. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment http://inspector911.com/ hi 1st mentor, others have addressed your question- I just wanted to add this about flex head installation (inspection). at the bottom of the 1st page of this site there is a 'Does this meet code' thing about flex head connectors- and comments. Thanks Vince (35 years late), Your 1st pain in the @$$ -Original Message- From: Vince Sabolik [mailto:vi...@christifire.com] Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Flexible Heads, a Learnable Moment Good morning, forum -- I'm curious to see how sprinkler designers here handle flexible heads, namely how far do you set the line and tee from the target in in the pad
Occupancy vs Hazard
Is there a correlation between the IBC occupancy and NFPA #13 Hazard? I have a set of plans where the building occupancy classification is H-1 and the EOR has specified OH-II for the sprinkler system. I have always thought (maybe mistakenly) that any H occupancy would be EH-I minimum. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Occupancy vs Hazard
It's a munitions maintenance facility for missiles. I suppose once the mushroom cloud clears the type of sprinkler system wouldn't really matter. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Occupancy vs Hazard H-1 is a detonation hazard. Fireworks, explosives, organic compounds, etc. could all fall under that category. But you would also need to consider other materials used such as paper for casings of fireworks or plastics for storage of peroxides, etc. It's not a simple one point analysis. So you could actually have multiple NFPA 13 classification within the facility. I've got an H-4, that's due to dust issues, no flammables or combustible liquids present. No fire threat from the process. An EX classification would be gross overkill and provide nothing except extra cost. The one problem with the Occupancy listings in NFPA 13 is that when used by a novice, they can result in a wrong conclusion. This case in point. The EOR probably looked at OHII for chemical plants and said BINGO! Now I'm not saying that his conclusion is wrong, it might be dead on. Unfortunately he could be way off if he did not look at everything going into this plant, the locations, the quantities, use, storage, handling, compatibilities, etc Hazardous occupancy classification for fire protection systems is one area that probably has more screw-ups than any other due to the complexity of the analysis and lack of black and white direction. If the facility is not in the list in A.5.2 then most just make a wild guess based on the first thing the owner tells them. Industrial occupancies need an experienced engineer who can make the determination because there are cases when NFPA 13 is NOT the applicable primary Standard. Unfortunately there are many who don't realize that NFPA has anything other than the 13 Standard. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:53 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Occupancy vs Hazard Is there a correlation between the IBC occupancy and NFPA #13 Hazard? I have a set of plans where the building occupancy classification is H-1 and the EOR has specified OH-II for the sprinkler system. I have always thought (maybe mistakenly) that any H occupancy would be EH-I minimum. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Occupancy vs Hazard
They aren't calling for UHSD or anything like that, just sprinklers. I was just curious if anyone had put an OH system into a H occupancy. I just assume that H = Extra Hazard. Guess not. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Occupancy vs Hazard Did a high speed Deluge for a Phoenix Missile assembly building in PAX NAS 8 riser for a 24'x24' building. Explosion wasn't the hazard, as much as if the rocket motor (solid propellant) fired off. Pretty much cook the whole building if it wasn't cooled. If the warhead exploded, then the system wouldn't do any good. Just send flowers to the widow. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Occupancy vs Hazard It's a munitions maintenance facility for missiles. I suppose once the mushroom cloud clears the type of sprinkler system wouldn't really matter. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: ETL Surge suppressor configuration
I think it is 3 pumps 3 arresters. The main line of reasoning here is, it's the government and they are buying something that is useless and unnecessary so more must be better. It's like when the pump is in the room with the riser manifold. It's a 100 gallon on the pump and a 10 gallon arrester on each riser, not a 150 gallon on five riser manifold with pump. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Hinson, Ryan Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 3:02 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: ETL Surge suppressor configuration Any takers out there for this ANG ETL related question? Per ETL 02-15 para A1.4.3.10, At least one arrester will be provided for each pump and each must be listed/approved as a surge arrester for fire protection piping, with a volume of not less than 100 gal and a rated working pressure of not less than 250 psi. Provide each arrester with an indicating valve to isolate it from the system. We are having a little argument here in the office as to whether the intent here is to require separate surge arresters for each pump or whether the combined required capacities for all surge arresters can be combined into one large arrester. Example: 3 pumps = 3 - 100 gal surge arresters Or 3 pumps = 1 - 300 gal surge arrester Thank you, Ryan L. Hinson, EIT, NICET III Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell Minneapolis-St. Paul Office 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 Bloomington, MN 55437 Direct: 952-656-6003 Ext 3662 Fax: 952-229-2923 rhin...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.comBLOCKED::www.burnsmcd.com Proud recipient of PSMJ's Premier Award for Client Satisfaction ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
NFPA #13 changes/additions
I am trying to find out how a new rule is added into 13 without having a bar next to it in the margin and without being in the ROP or the ROC? Case in point. NFPA 13, 2007 Section 18.2.4. The protection specified in 18.2.1 shall not be required where ESFR or large drop sprinkler systems that are approved for rubber tire storage are installed. There is no bar in the margin yet column sprinklers are required in rubber tire storage in the 02 edition, see Section 12.4.1. We have an AHJ that won't let us use any part of the 07 edition on a rubber tire storage project because it has not been adopted by the city. I thought I would submit that 1.6 allows new technologies and the currently available ESFR's do not require column protection. I am trying to find where the language in 18.2.4 (07) came from to use as back up. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NFPA #13 changes/additions
It figures that I and the AHJ would have the first printing of 13 and the handbook. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NFPA #13 changes/additions The criteria was indeed in the 2002 edition (just not in the first printing). Get Errata 02-1 from www.NFPA.org Roland On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:34 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: I am trying to find out how a new rule is added into 13 without having a bar next to it in the margin and without being in the ROP or the ROC? Case in point. NFPA 13, 2007 Section 18.2.4. The protection specified in 18.2.1 shall not be required where ESFR or large drop sprinkler systems that are approved for rubber tire storage are installed. There is no bar in the margin yet column sprinklers are required in rubber tire storage in the 02 edition, see Section 12.4.1. We have an AHJ that won't let us use any part of the 07 edition on a rubber tire storage project because it has not been adopted by the city. I thought I would submit that 1.6 allows new technologies and the currently available ESFR's do not require column protection. I am trying to find where the language in 18.2.4 (07) came from to use as back up. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NFPA #13 changes/additions
The forum is invaluable and Roland is the man. I'm also impressed by the restraint of the forumites. Nobody said, hey dummy it's right there in the book. Can't you read? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NFPA #13 changes/additions And now kids, how valuable is this forum and Roland's knowledge of that long and winding road known as NFPA 13? For those of use who use this Forum regularly and are not AFSA members: SHAME ON YOU. On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote: It figures that I and the AHJ would have the first printing of 13 and the handbook. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NFPA #13 changes/additions The criteria was indeed in the 2002 edition (just not in the first printing). Get Errata 02-1 from www.NFPA.org Roland On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:34 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: I am trying to find out how a new rule is added into 13 without having a bar next to it in the margin and without being in the ROP or the ROC? Case in point. NFPA 13, 2007 Section 18.2.4. The protection specified in 18.2.1 shall not be required where ESFR or large drop sprinkler systems that are approved for rubber tire storage are installed. There is no bar in the margin yet column sprinklers are required in rubber tire storage in the 02 edition, see Section 12.4.1. We have an AHJ that won't let us use any part of the 07 edition on a rubber tire storage project because it has not been adopted by the city. I thought I would submit that 1.6 allows new technologies and the currently available ESFR's do not require column protection. I am trying to find where the language in 18.2.4 (07) came from to use as back up. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Column Sprinklers in rubber tire storage
We have an AHJ that is using the 2002 NFPA 13 and doesn't care what is in the 07. We have 25 ft. high tire storage in portable racks in a 35 ft bldg. They want column sprinklers installed with the ESFR's because there is no specific exception (that I can find) for column sprinklers as there is in the 2007 Edition (18.2.4). There is not a bar in the margin next to 18.2.4 so I was looking for the same language in the 02 but I cannot find. Hopefully I'm just missing it as usual. Anyone know where it might be? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Wells as a water source
In the past I have seen what was called a canned pump used with wells. Put a vertical turbine pump in a 5 ft diameter sleeve 20 ft. deep and use the wells to keep it full of water while the pump runs. It saves the cost of a large tank but obviously is not as fail safe. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 1:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Wells as a water source We've got a rural chemical processing plant. No real municipal water supply. Owner wants to use wells, 3 at 1500 gpm each with an estimated, pumped residual pressure of approximately 26 psi at the surface. So there will be a pump within the well supplying water to a multi-use water main which will then branch off to feed the fire pumps. It is their desire not to have a fire water tank. Well water supply is supposed to be extremely reliable in this area. At this stage of the game maximum system demand is yet to be determined. The question is what are the issues with having a well pump or pumps serving a fire pump? Any restrictions or things to consider? I have found nothing giving any specific guidelines concerning this arrangement. I've looked at NFPA 20, 2007, 7.2 and NFPA 1142 and it appears that a dedicated fire well is presumed. These wells are going to be costly so they will not want to drill wells dedicated to FP only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: abandoned pipe
Some years ago we did an upgrade/replacement and abandoned the existing system in place. We even used some of the old mains as trapeze hangers for the new mains. I wasn't there but I heard that we had the inspector scratching his head trying to figure it out. I sent a picture into FPC Magazine for the What's wrong with this picture and was put in the mag. It looked awful but we could find no apparent code violation. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: abandoned pipe I was looking at a job yesterday where a new system had been installed about 15 years ago. Prior to that, they had a partial system which was capped off an abandoned above the new ceiling. (the new system provided coverage where the old system had previously). The old system still has sprinklers installed. I told the contractor that the sprinklers had to be removed. My question is does the pipe need to be removed as well? I couldn't find any specific code references for either. The job is in MA. Thoughts? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: abandoned pipe
Agreed, bad Juju. But when the owner gets the quote for install new $, remove old $, haul off old , they almost always choose the leave the existing in place. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: abandoned pipe I don't think this is a problem, just bad Juju. Quoted text from Ron Fletcher: I heard that we had the inspector scratching his head trying to figure it out. How about the IT inspector? How about just quality of workmanship? I used to be an electrician when young and I was always the troubleshooter. Being young I didn't realize that the more complicated the problem the job security I had, but rather spent a whole lot of energy being peeved at electricians that abandoned wiring and left it in place. You could spend days chasing wires to nothing looking for the cause of a dead circuit. Being generous those wires might be useful 2% of the time. Empty conduit buried behind walls could be useful as freeway through inaccessible spaces but abandoned wires were always the wrong color or size or insulation type or Same with abandoned sprinkler pipe. It's just a scrap metal bank that doesn't collect interest. If you don't need recycle it. If it's not recyclable toss it. Leaving old pipe is like taking a dump in your friends living room. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote: Load is not a problem. This is an old concrete high-rise built i two parts between 1896 and 1930. Lots of over-design. At 09:32 AM 4/8/2010, you wrote: Would this create a building weight load problem? Will the building support all of this weight? Chris Payne FPS Owensboro, KY -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: abandoned pipe Some years ago we did an upgrade/replacement and abandoned the existing system in place. We even used some of the old mains as trapeze hangers for the new mains. I wasn't there but I heard that we had the inspector scratching his head trying to figure it out. I sent a picture into FPC Magazine for the What's wrong with this picture and was put in the mag. It looked awful but we could find no apparent code violation. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: abandoned pipe I was looking at a job yesterday where a new system had been installed about 15 years ago. Prior to that, they had a partial system which was capped off an abandoned above the new ceiling. (the new system provided coverage where the old system had previously). The old system still has sprinklers installed. I told the contractor that the sprinklers had to be removed. My question is does the pipe need to be removed as well? I couldn't find any specific code references for either. The job is in MA. Thoughts? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/10 13:32:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email
Rubber Tire Storage
Is there a maximum pile volume for rubber tires stored on side in portable racks 25 ft. high? Roof height is 35 ft. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: 165 degree glass bulb heads
Forest, I think the RTI on a 165F link and 155F bulb are about the same, anyway they are both considered ordinary temperature. Intermediate starts at 175F. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 4:41 PM To: Forest Wilson; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: 165 degree glass bulb heads Are there any standard spray 165* glass bulb heads available? Why are the strut heads 165 and glass bulb 155? I need to know if the 165s are available, if anyone knows please. I tried posting this earlier but I don't think it went through Thank you Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com Date: Mon, Mar 29, 2010 3:43 PM Subject: 500 DEGREE OVEN To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Probably because sprinkler water would reach temperatures in excess of 120* (7.7.1.3.1.1) That pertains to combination systems, but I think there's a similar requirement for standard wet systems. Forest Wilson Project Manager Cherokee Fire Protection Co. 1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C Xenia OH 45385 PH 937-376-2333 FX 614-455-4324 visit our blog: www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be solely for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. It is not intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the named addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named addressee). It should not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 3:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: 500 DEGREE OVEN Has anyone had a problem with installing a wet sprinkler in a high temp. oven approx. 500 degrees. The piping is on the exterior and a drop sprinkler into the oven. An FM plan reviewer stated that FM suggests using a dry system when temps run this high. Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: ESFR for over 25ft storage
Doesn't it say minimum 80 sqft per head? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 11:48 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: ESFR for over 25ft storage NFPA 13 (07ed) section 16.3.3.4 requires a demand area of 12 ESFR sprinklers but it does not mention the 960sf minimum as in 22.4.4.3. Does this mean the minimum SF doesn't apply here? Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Design Build Fire Protection New Berlin, WI ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: exterior spacing of Pilot heads
Have you checked out the Viking C-1 release? I think it can be spaced more than 8 ft apart. Probably pricey but maybe worth a look. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ . -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: exterior spacing of Pilot heads Official from NFPA is that exterior means by definition exterior and that 8'-0 is the only option (for those who followed this previous thread). Thanks for the feedback Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
dry system air leak
There was a thread a while back (I think) that discussed a way of finding leaks in dry systems using a colored gas or something like that. I didn't save the thread because we live in Phoenix and don't have dry systems except in freezers. My mistake. We are working on a freezer system repair, have fixed some leaks but there are more and we can't find them. The service guys were talking about filling the system with antifreeze but would rather not. If anyone remembers the thread I would appreciate if they would post it again or send to my email. Thanks in advance, Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: dry system air leak
Thanks Chris, I'll check it out. Sounds like we will have to fill it with antifreeze solution plus dye. We were hoping there was way to test using a gas or air instead of liquid. Fletch -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: dry system air leak Google tracing dyes - there are regular and florescent, liquids, powders tablets. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: dry system air leak There was a thread a while back (I think) that discussed a way of finding leaks in dry systems using a colored gas or something like that. I didn't save the thread because we live in Phoenix and don't have dry systems except in freezers. My mistake. We are working on a freezer system repair, have fixed some leaks but there are more and we can't find them. The service guys were talking about filling the system with antifreeze but would rather not. If anyone remembers the thread I would appreciate if they would post it again or send to my email. Thanks in advance, Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: release line/ piot line hangers
We usually go every 8 ft. I don't think it's addressed in a code. It won't take the installers long to figure out where they need them. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: release line/ piot line hangers Can anyone point me to code reference for hanger distances etc for 1/2 pilot line piping? Release Line hangers? (And no the manufacturer does not have an answer.) Thanks, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Combustible concealed space
Logic? Try this. Shell retail space with 4-12 pitch wood roof. Rough in core and shell system for OH2 at 10 ft. x 12 ft. spacing. Tenant installs a suspended ceiling. The attic is now light hazard combustible concealed space that must comply with 8.6.4.1.4. A lesser hazard yet the OH2 design is lacking. It's my understanding the spacing requirements of 8.6.4.1.4 are a result of full scale testing. If testing proved the spacing works why is a 30% increase of the RA still required? Some of the many mysteries in 13. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Combustible concealed space NFPA 13, 2007, 8.6.4.1.4 Does it apply only if the space is concealed? A 13 building has an attic with 12:6 roof slope, which is sprinklered and has to conform to 8.6.4.1.4. Some areas in this attic has mechanical rooms with exposed roof structure as the rest of the attic. Hence my question. I would think it should apply to all steep pitched roofs or ceilings. If not, what is the logic? (if logic even enters into the question. Ours not to reason why, ours but to do or die). Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: DRY SYSTEMS FOR DUMMIES
The only program I'm aware of is used for a Quell system by Tyco designed for cold storage. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Vince Sabolik Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: DRY SYSTEMS FOR DUMMIES Regarding water delivery time in dry systems. 11.2.3.9.2 The calculation program and method shall be listed by a nationally recognized laboratory. Anybody know where the formula for the(se) program(s) exists? Vince Sabolik Christi Fire Protection, Inc. 11351 Pearl Road Strongsville, Ohio 44136 T 440 572-7730 F 440 572-7719 Email: mailto:vi...@christifire.comvi...@christifire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Bio Diesel
Hi Steve, Thanks for the offer. I have to budget a 20k sqft diesel/methanol plant. The storage tanks and preheat for diesel are outside as are the biodiesel and methanol tanks. The filtering, mixing and so on are inside. Are any special systems like AFFF or deluge necessary? Can we use IFC B-105.1 for fire flow? Thanks for your help, Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Kowkabany Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 8:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Bio Diesel Ron, I designed protection for a very similar facility a few years ago. Feel free to contact me directly for more info. Steve Kowkabany, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC 60 Ocean Boulevard, Suite 15 Atlantic Beach, FL 32233 904-652-4200 Phone 904-212-0868 Fax -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 4:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Bio Diesel Anyone have experience with diesel/methanol bio diesel plant. They have outdoor methanol and diesel storage. The building is 20k sqft with mixing, purification etc... inside. Looking for advice. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Bio Diesel
Anyone have experience with diesel/methanol bio diesel plant. They have outdoor methanol and diesel storage. The building is 20k sqft with mixing, purification etc... inside. Looking for advice. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: sand strainer?
I thought it was closer to 4AM but I might have lost track of the time. Orival www.orval.com makes what you need. We installed the filter (model OR-03-PS) in cooling line. The thing cost about $8k but is much cheaper than replacing the engine. We had the water examined at a test laboratory to determine the size of the particles so we would know how the size screen needed. In our case we had to filter down to 10 microns. Obviously it is not UL Listed but such is life. They come in larger sizes and can handle up to 10,000 gpm but the cost is probably prohibitive for an 8 or 10 size so you might have to live with the valves dripping. Good luck, Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 6:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: sand strainer? Would this be the time to plug CONVENTION and the value of 3AM refreshments and open discussion of how to attack various types of projects? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Phelps, Mark Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: sand strainer? Hi George, We have experienced the same problem out here in the wild wild (and very sandy) west. We found a filtering system that has relatively low back pressure and is automatic (self cleaning) for around 8 grand. I believe is was a three inch. Ron was going to look up the brand and contact information for you in the morning. It has been in service for about 10 months and we have not experienced any heating issues. Mark at Aero -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org]on Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 5:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: sand strainer? ASCOA paid $22k just expediting an order of em once, they must be Bentleys:) I'll check them and the source filtering. It is boost to village supply. TANKS! -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jim.robe...@fluor.com Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 5:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: sand strainer? George, If you haven't already, try Hellan strainers http://www.hellanstrainer.com/. I've used them before, not with sand straining, but the unique design may be just what you're looking for. They claim they can filter out sand. Hellan is the Cadillac so the strainer could be pricey. Regards, James L.(Jim) Roberts, PE/SET Fluor Corporation 100 Fluor Daniel Drive Greenville, SC 29607 864.281.5149 George Church for...@ptd.net Sent by: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 02/04/2010 05:38 PM Please respond to sprinklerforum To sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org cc Subject RE: sand strainer? Ok, let me re-phrase- Anyone know how to filter sand out of a supply? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 5:29 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: sand strainer? Maybe a diesel generator powering an electric pump? Or perhaps a small high-quality cooling water source? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: sand strainer? We've got a problem child project where sand in the water supply clogs up the cooling jacket on the diesel, and sand blasts the rubbers in valves so they drip. Small private water purveyor (the developer of the industrial park is the owner) supplies our diesel which then feeds the systems, all interior piping downstream of pump. Project located several miles from the ocean, a couple miles from the Bay. I can't imagine a strainer with perfs small enough to grab grains of sand and not have atrocious friction loss. I can't find cheesecloth to wrap around the strainer basket that's UL-Listed in a pump suction application. While I haven't encountered this before, it likely isn't the first time the problem has been encountered. Any one know a remedy other than a tank (with settling basin?) and higher pressure 2,500 GPM pump to make up for the loss of city residual pressure? George Church Rowe Sprinkler ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
In-rack system zoning
We have 65,000 sqft of rack storage that requires in-rack sprinklers. The racks span an area that is protected by 4 roof systems. Can we use a single system to supply the in-rack and have all 65,000 sqft on a single valve? I thought that I read somewhere once upon a time that in-rack systems had to be zoned similar to roof systems i.e. 40,000 sqft max etc... Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: In-rack system zoning
Would the 40,000 sqft limit apply to the area including the aisles? Of the 65,000 sqft of area the racks cover only about half is actually rack. So if there is only 32,500 sqft. of rack one system should do it? 13 doesn't address the issue (that I can find) and maybe that's why. I thought I read something a few years ago about limiting the size but I can't remember where I saw it. Thanks for the reply, Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jim Z Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: In-rack system zoning The way I understand it 40,000 sf is your limit. * 8.2.1 *The maximum floor area on any one floor to be protected by sprinklers supplied by any one sprinkler system riser or combined system riser shall be as follows: (3) Extra hazard (a) Pipe schedule - 25,000 ft2 (2323 m2) (b) Hydraulically calculated - 40,000 ft2 (3716 m2) (4) Storage-High-piled storage (as defined in 3.9.1.13) and storage covered by other NFPA standards - 40,000 ft2 (3716 m2) *3.9.1.13 *High-Piled Storage. Solid-piled, palletized, *rack storage*, bin box, and shelf storage in excess of 12 ft (3.7 m) in height. -Jim On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.comwrote: We have 65,000 sqft of rack storage that requires in-rack sprinklers. The racks span an area that is protected by 4 roof systems. Can we use a single system to supply the in-rack and have all 65,000 sqft on a single valve? I thought that I read somewhere once upon a time that in-rack systems had to be zoned similar to roof systems i.e. 40,000 sqft max etc... Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3ASprinklerforum-request@ firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: In-rack system zoning
Thanks Craig. I must have read right past that two or three times this morning. I need a vacation. Ron -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: In-rack system zoning 8.13 In-Rack Sprinklers. 8.13.1 System Size. The area protected by a single system of sprinklers in racks shall not exceed 40,000 ft2 (3716 m2) of floor area occupied by the racks, including aisles, regardless of the number of levels of in-rack sprinklers. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: In-rack system zoning Ron: i remember reading the same thing and it did include the rack aisles. I will try to find it. T On 1/14/2010 1:10 PM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: Would the 40,000 sqft limit apply to the area including the aisles? Of the 65,000 sqft of area the racks cover only about half is actually rack. So if there is only 32,500 sqft. of rack one system should do it? 13 doesn't address the issue (that I can find) and maybe that's why. I thought I read something a few years ago about limiting the size but I can't remember where I saw it. Thanks for the reply, Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jim Z Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: In-rack system zoning The way I understand it 40,000 sf is your limit. * 8.2.1 *The maximum floor area on any one floor to be protected by sprinklers supplied by any one sprinkler system riser or combined system riser shall be as follows: (3) Extra hazard (a) Pipe schedule - 25,000 ft2 (2323 m2) (b) Hydraulically calculated - 40,000 ft2 (3716 m2) (4) Storage-High-piled storage (as defined in 3.9.1.13) and storage covered by other NFPA standards - 40,000 ft2 (3716 m2) *3.9.1.13 *High-Piled Storage. Solid-piled, palletized, *rack storage*, bin box, and shelf storage in excess of 12 ft (3.7 m) in height. -Jim On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.comwrote: We have 65,000 sqft of rack storage that requires in-rack sprinklers. The racks span an area that is protected by 4 roof systems. Can we use a single system to supply the in-rack and have all 65,000 sqft on a single valve? I thought that I read somewhere once upon a time that in-rack systems had to be zoned similar to roof systems i.e. 40,000 sqft max etc... Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3ASprinklerforum-reques t@ firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 Office (480) 505-9271 Fax (866) 430-6107 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field
RE: In-rack system zoning
That's a good idea. If it doesn't cost too much in the way of bulk pipe I may give it a try. Ron F -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: In-rack system zoning When I've had multiple roof zones with extensive racking I'll feed the racks in roof area A off of the adjacent roof area B's riser. Then serve B's racks off of A's roof system riser. Reasoning for this is that if you had an impairment in system A you only impact one system, either the roof or the racks not both within that particular area. OF course this all depends on the building configuration and whether you're manifolding the risers or have separate run-ins so it may or may not work in your building. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: In-rack system zoning We have 65,000 sqft of rack storage that requires in-rack sprinklers. The racks span an area that is protected by 4 roof systems. Can we use a single system to supply the in-rack and have all 65,000 sqft on a single valve? I thought that I read somewhere once upon a time that in-rack systems had to be zoned similar to roof systems i.e. 40,000 sqft max etc... Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NFPA 415 glazing protection
We have installed window sprinklers on a lot of the glass at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport but they are all on wet systems. Deluge with standard nozzles should work as a performance based design provided you can get the AHJ to buy it. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: NFPA 415 glazing protection Anyone have experience with the NFPA 415 reference to NFPA 15 for glazing protection in which 15 gives no guidance for glazing protection? Thanks if you can help, Greg ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Calcs-How much margin
If the heads are not as effective in controlling a fire then how do they get UL Listed? If it is Listed and I would assume tested it should be okay to use. If it is OH-I and the spacing requires an EHP less than 7 psi why not use the UL listed 4.2k head? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Calcs-How much margin I know it isn't enforceable code, but the handbook explanitory text clearly states (and explains why) that small orifice heads are for light hazard use only. This is from the 2007 handbook, and if after 8.3.4.1(2) Restrictions on small orifice sprinklers are found in 8.3.4.1(1) and (2). Small orifice sprinklers are restricted to light hazard occupancies, because they are not as effective in controlling a fire as are sprinklers with a nominal K-factor and also do not pass the same fire tests that K-5.6 and larger sprinklers do. Small orifice sprinklers are restricted to wet systems because And it goes on to talk about the other restrictions on small orifice heads. On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.comwrote: 8.3.4 doesn't say for light hazard only and it doesn't prohibit the use of small orifice sprinklers in OH. The Tyco TY-FRB is UL Listed in 2.8k,4.2k, 5.6k and 8k for light and ordinary hazard. If it's Listed for OH why couldn't it be used? I would probably call the company that submitted the plans and ask for supporting information like an area water main map with elevations etc... With the right information the validity of the flow test could be determined. It isn't unusual for a building to be near completion before the extended water system is in place and ready to be tested. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 3:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin Not talking about Craig specifics. All John/NFPA provides is great except it should be in AWWA standards not NFPA standards. These people forget the water system originally was a fire protection function to keep the town from burning down. Even today its flows are FP based not domestic. Ask a water guy anything about anything other than GPD and you get a lot of blank stares. You can't adjust if the water utility doesn't know any of the stipulated information. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin Craig, You've received plenty of comment. Travis and John found the first problem with the design, the code section is 2007 NFPA-13-8.3.4. Before one can decide if the water supply is adequate the system demand must be validated. 22.2.1 provides the required information for water supply, 22.3.5.4 for supply analysis and 23.2.1.2 for determination. 23.2.1.2 provides the answer; The volume and pressure of a public water supply shall be determined from waterflow test data. An ADJUSTMENT TO THE WATERFLOW TEST DATA TO ACCOUNT FOR daily and seasonal fluctuations, possible interruption by flood or ice conditions, large simultaneous industrial use, future demand on the water supply system, OR ANY OTHER CONDITION THAT COULD AFFECT THE WATER SUPPLY SHALL BE MADE AS APPROPRIATE. As for a prescribed absolute, my understanding pursuant to the standard is supply (properly determined) and demand can match, thus nothing implicitly saying adjust by 10%. The annex of NFPA-13 does provide insight; A.23.2.1 Care should be taken in making water tests to be used in designing or evaluating the capability of sprinkler systems. The water supply tested should be representative of the supply that might be available at the time of a fire. For example, testing of public water supplies should be done at times of normal demand on the system. Public water supplies are likely to fluctuate widely from season to season and even within a 24-hour period. Allowance should be made for seasonal or daily fluctuations, for drought conditions, for possibility of interruption by flood, or for ice conditions in winter. Testing of water supplies also normally used for industrial use should be done while water is being drawn for industrial
RE: Calcs-How much margin
Nothing on the Tyco data sheet that lists the approvals and restrictions for each orifice size indicates that the 2.8 and 4.2 are restricted to LH. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:21 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin When I looked at tyco's cut sheet, it looked like it might have been a case of vague wording. They say that their sprinkler is available in 2.8, 4.2, 5.6, and 8.0 k factors for light and ordinary hazard. I don't think they meant for the 2.8 and 4.2 models to be used in ordinary... but it might be worth a call to them. perhaps they have obtained some specialized listings. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 8:18 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin If you look at the Viking cut sheet for their 2.8 and 4.2k heads it has a note for LH occupancies only. Could this be an oversight by Tyco? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 8:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Calcs-How much margin I know it isn't enforceable code, but the handbook explanitory text clearly states (and explains why) that small orifice heads are for light hazard use only. This is from the 2007 handbook, and if after 8.3.4.1(2) Restrictions on small orifice sprinklers are found in 8.3.4.1(1) and (2). Small orifice sprinklers are restricted to light hazard occupancies, because they are not as effective in controlling a fire as are sprinklers with a nominal K-factor and also do not pass the same fire tests that K-5.6 and larger sprinklers do. Small orifice sprinklers are restricted to wet systems because And it goes on to talk about the other restrictions on small orifice heads. On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.comwrote: 8.3.4 doesn't say for light hazard only and it doesn't prohibit the use of small orifice sprinklers in OH. The Tyco TY-FRB is UL Listed in 2.8k,4.2k, 5.6k and 8k for light and ordinary hazard. If it's Listed for OH why couldn't it be used? I would probably call the company that submitted the plans and ask for supporting information like an area water main map with elevations etc... With the right information the validity of the flow test could be determined. It isn't unusual for a building to be near completion before the extended water system is in place and ready to be tested. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 3:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin Not talking about Craig specifics. All John/NFPA provides is great except it should be in AWWA standards not NFPA standards. These people forget the water system originally was a fire protection function to keep the town from burning down. Even today its flows are FP based not domestic. Ask a water guy anything about anything other than GPD and you get a lot of blank stares. You can't adjust if the water utility doesn't know any of the stipulated information. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin Craig, You've received plenty of comment. Travis and John found the first problem with the design, the code section is 2007 NFPA-13-8.3.4. Before one can decide if the water supply is adequate the system demand must be validated. 22.2.1 provides the required information for water supply, 22.3.5.4 for supply analysis and 23.2.1.2 for determination. 23.2.1.2 provides the answer; The volume and pressure of a public water supply shall be determined from waterflow test data. An ADJUSTMENT TO THE WATERFLOW TEST DATA TO ACCOUNT FOR daily and seasonal fluctuations, possible interruption by flood or ice conditions, large
RE: Calcs-How much margin
Your right. And I also think the wording could use a lot more work, like noting in table A that 2.8 and 4.2 are listed for LH only. If they were listed for OH then we would be able to use them regardless of 8.3.4. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:53 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin I couldn't find any exception to the minimum 7 psi EHP (22.4.4.10.1). So unless there's an exception I didn't find, there would be no case where in OH1 that the EHP would be permitted to be less than 7 psi. The wording in 8.3.4 specifically mentions LH, it doesn't give any indication expressed or implied that it applies to any other occupancy. The commentary backs up that assumption. Tyco's data sheet makes sense if you take it that the 2.8 and 4.2 are for LH as allowed by 13. The wording could use a little work to make it clearer. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 9:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin If the heads are not as effective in controlling a fire then how do they get UL Listed? If it is Listed and I would assume tested it should be okay to use. If it is OH-I and the spacing requires an EHP less than 7 psi why not use the UL listed 4.2k head? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Calcs-How much margin I know it isn't enforceable code, but the handbook explanitory text clearly states (and explains why) that small orifice heads are for light hazard use only. This is from the 2007 handbook, and if after 8.3.4.1(2) Restrictions on small orifice sprinklers are found in 8.3.4.1(1) and (2). Small orifice sprinklers are restricted to light hazard occupancies, because they are not as effective in controlling a fire as are sprinklers with a nominal K-factor and also do not pass the same fire tests that K-5.6 and larger sprinklers do. Small orifice sprinklers are restricted to wet systems because And it goes on to talk about the other restrictions on small orifice heads. On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.comwrote: 8.3.4 doesn't say for light hazard only and it doesn't prohibit the use of small orifice sprinklers in OH. The Tyco TY-FRB is UL Listed in 2.8k,4.2k, 5.6k and 8k for light and ordinary hazard. If it's Listed for OH why couldn't it be used? I would probably call the company that submitted the plans and ask for supporting information like an area water main map with elevations etc... With the right information the validity of the flow test could be determined. It isn't unusual for a building to be near completion before the extended water system is in place and ready to be tested. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 3:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin Not talking about Craig specifics. All John/NFPA provides is great except it should be in AWWA standards not NFPA standards. These people forget the water system originally was a fire protection function to keep the town from burning down. Even today its flows are FP based not domestic. Ask a water guy anything about anything other than GPD and you get a lot of blank stares. You can't adjust if the water utility doesn't know any of the stipulated information. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcs-How much margin Craig, You've received plenty of comment. Travis and John found the first problem with the design, the code section is 2007 NFPA-13-8.3.4. Before one can decide
RE: Waste Transfer Stations
We are doing a project with a FM design. The tipping area is a dual density .80/1500 .30/5000 and the processing area design is 12 K16.8 @ 63 psi. FM references Data Sheet 2-2. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Peterson Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:35 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Waste Transfer Stations Group We are currently looking at a waste transfer station. I cannot find any requirements for fire protection. Does anyone know if there are requirements out there? Thanks in advance Ryan Peterson Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: combustible concealed MEMBERS
When is a framing member not a framing member? When it's a 2x4. I'm pretty sure 2x4's would be considered smooth ceiling so there wouldn't be any framing members to speak of and the 225 sqft should be okay. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: combustible concealed MEMBERS I am not talking about UNDER the canopy, I am talking about IN the canopy. Greg McGahan Operations Manager Living Water Fire Protection 1160 McKenzie Road P.O. Box 877 Cantonment, Florida 32533 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 g...@livingwaterfp.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: combustible concealed MEMBERS Is the front of a strip mall LH? I'd think not. Hereabouts the merchants put there most combustible seasonal stuff out front under the canopy and create skinny little aisles on the sidewalks. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com wrote: We have a flat roof canopy in front of a strip mall whose structure is non combustible, flat roof with bar joists 4-5' on center and a metal pan roof. The front of the canopy is a façade that is nearly vertical but slopes out at the bottom, probably a 4 FEET on 12 INCH slope. The framing for the façade is all 2x4 with plywood and the ceiling of the canopy is all 2x4 with plywood - both of which are 2' on center. The height of this space varies due to the ceiling, but is approximately 7' tall. According to table 8.6.2.2.1(a) I can space the heads at 225' with members over 3' on center. Since the ROOF structure is non combustible, would I consider this my MEMBERS and use 225 sq ft, or do I have to use the ceiling framing as the MEMBERS and be limited to 130 sqft? To be honest I would be great with 150 sq ft, but the 130 hurts the calcs due to the additional heads in the remote area. Thanks for the input. Greg McGahan ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Test header at pump house
Are you sure it isn't the FDC with the Storz connection? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Splawn, Shannon Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 10:48 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Test header at pump house Not sure about it who will do the ITM. It's a case where I am duplicating an existing fire pump house to a brand new site in another state and the existing one is set-up like I described. I just am not 100% comfortable with the way it was done but at the same time I am not 100% certain that it was wrong per NFPA 20 or Factory Mutual. Shannon Splawn, CFPS Jacobs Fire Protection | Mechanical Engineering Dept. 513.674.3822 shannon.spl...@jacobs.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 12:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Test header at pump house Just whoever does ITM (or for that matter the initial acceptance) do they have 5 storz hose adapters and way to split the flow to hose monsters or playpipes or I guess do they make a 5 hose monster. I don't easily. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Splawn, Shannon Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:33 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Test header at pump house Is there any thing wrong with using 5 Storz-type connections for a fire pump test header in lieu of the standard 2-1/2 hose valves? Shannon Splawn, CFPS Jacobs Fire Protection | Mechanical Engineering Dept. 513.674.3822 shannon.spl...@jacobs.com NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedto fatalexplosion
Interesting video. Have you seen FM Data Sheet 7-20 Oil Cookers? It says to put a deluge system discharging at 0.5 gpm per sqft over the hot oil surface. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 2:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedto fatalexplosion I remember seeing a very enlightening video a couple months back that showed the effects of what this person did. The video was showing the dangers of adding water to a cooking fire leading to catastrophic results. Here's the link, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZGzbd0IvUE. It doesn't surprise me that a confined area could or would explode in the way the news article points out. Regardless of previous lawsuits, the likely hood that the antifreeze solution in the sprinkler system helped propagate the fire is unlikely. Watching the video, it's not hard to ascertain that an oil fire that is incorrectly attempted to be extinguished with water can lead to disaster. This is where the fire community needs to step it up and continually and aggressively educate the public. Bob Knight -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 3:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedto fatal explosion Didn't we have this discussion on the Forum a while back about 100% anti-freeze solution vs. anti-freeze/water mixtures? At 04:44 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: Why is there an antifreeze system inside a building? Not knowing what was used in the system, here is the info from the ethylene glycol MSDS: Section 5: Fire and Explosion Data Flammability of the Product: May be combustible at high temperature. Auto-Ignition Temperature: 398°C (748.4°F) Flash Points: CLOSED CUP: 111°C (231.8°F). (Tagliabue.) Flammable Limits: LOWER: 3.2% Products of Combustion: These products are carbon oxides (CO, CO2). Fire Hazards in Presence of Various Substances: Slightly flammable to flammable in presence of open flames and sparks, of heat. Non-flammable in presence of shocks. This looks like antifreeze systems need to be investigated by NIST to determine the dangers. Thank You Rahe Loftin, P.E. Region 7 - GSA Office - 817-978-7299 Fax - 817-978-8644 Cell - 817-371-3102 Richard Mote rich...@rowespri To nkler.comSprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org Sent by: cc sprinklerforum-bo un...@firesprinkl Subject er.orgReport: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributed to fatal explosion 10/22/2009 03:18 PM Please respond to sprinklerfo...@fi resprinkler.org; Please respond to Richard Mote rich...@rowespri nkler.com Say What? http://www.sierrasun.com/article/20091020/NEWS/910169995/1066ParentProfile =1051 ) -- next part -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.26/2451 - Release Date: 10/22/09 08:51:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedtofatalexplosion
It isn't a very thin layer of oil. We are doing 4 fryers that are 6 ft wide by 18 ft long and hold about 250 gallons of oil at 325F. They run potato chips through on a conveyor. I'm not sure but I think the oil is at least 4-6 inches deep. I even have a letter from an FM type insurance company confirming the water deluge for the fryers. One of my concerns was amount of free board in the fryers. At about 150 gpm we will over flow the free board in a couple minutes. Then everything goes to the trench drain. We priced deluge, LP CO2 and Hifog. Deluge was least expensive, CO2 double the cost of deluge and mist was double the cost of CO2. The owner chose deluge. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 7:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedtofatalexplosion that's for a flat surface (thin layer of oil) verses a pan of oil (or deep aft fryer) Roland On Oct 23, 2009, at 5:51 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: Interesting video. Have you seen FM Data Sheet 7-20 Oil Cookers? It says to put a deluge system discharging at 0.5 gpm per sqft over the hot oil surface. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may havecontributedtofatalexplosion
It's vegetable oil. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 8:55 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may havecontributedtofatalexplosion If the oil is not miscible, good luck with that scheme. What did the insurer use as the basis for that idea? Typically for oil quenching or dip tanks or similar you would use local app. DC or Foam or maybe CO2 depending on conditions and MSDS data. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 11:45 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedtofatalexplosion It isn't a very thin layer of oil. We are doing 4 fryers that are 6 ft wide by 18 ft long and hold about 250 gallons of oil at 325F. They run potato chips through on a conveyor. I'm not sure but I think the oil is at least 4-6 inches deep. I even have a letter from an FM type insurance company confirming the water deluge for the fryers. One of my concerns was amount of free board in the fryers. At about 150 gpm we will over flow the free board in a couple minutes. Then everything goes to the trench drain. We priced deluge, LP CO2 and Hifog. Deluge was least expensive, CO2 double the cost of deluge and mist was double the cost of CO2. The owner chose deluge. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 7:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedtofatalexplosion that's for a flat surface (thin layer of oil) verses a pan of oil (or deep aft fryer) Roland On Oct 23, 2009, at 5:51 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: Interesting video. Have you seen FM Data Sheet 7-20 Oil Cookers? It says to put a deluge system discharging at 0.5 gpm per sqft over the hot oil surface. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system mayhavecontributedtofatalexplosion
That's what I thought too, but it's in FM 7-20 so I would think it has been done before. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system mayhavecontributedtofatalexplosion See that makes no sense. In kitchen equipment hoods it's usually always some kind of DC or CO2, never water. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 11:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may havecontributedtofatalexplosion It's vegetable oil. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 8:55 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may havecontributedtofatalexplosion If the oil is not miscible, good luck with that scheme. What did the insurer use as the basis for that idea? Typically for oil quenching or dip tanks or similar you would use local app. DC or Foam or maybe CO2 depending on conditions and MSDS data. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 11:45 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedtofatalexplosion It isn't a very thin layer of oil. We are doing 4 fryers that are 6 ft wide by 18 ft long and hold about 250 gallons of oil at 325F. They run potato chips through on a conveyor. I'm not sure but I think the oil is at least 4-6 inches deep. I even have a letter from an FM type insurance company confirming the water deluge for the fryers. One of my concerns was amount of free board in the fryers. At about 150 gpm we will over flow the free board in a couple minutes. Then everything goes to the trench drain. We priced deluge, LP CO2 and Hifog. Deluge was least expensive, CO2 double the cost of deluge and mist was double the cost of CO2. The owner chose deluge. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 7:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedtofatalexplosion that's for a flat surface (thin layer of oil) verses a pan of oil (or deep aft fryer) Roland On Oct 23, 2009, at 5:51 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: Interesting video. Have you seen FM Data Sheet 7-20 Oil Cookers? It says to put a deluge system discharging at 0.5 gpm per sqft over the hot oil surface. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum
RE: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may havecontributedtofatalexplosion
10 nozzles at 27 gpm each should cause a little spatter. The FM data sheet requires nozzles with a maximum 1/4 orifice. We are using the Tyco mulsifyre nozzle. They are UL Listed but I don't think it matters what we spray. Ron Fletcher -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may havecontributedtofatalexplosion Since you are following the directions of FM and they are the AHJ (well one of them anyways), full steam ahead. For all other jobs, there are no listed sprinklers for deep fat fryers (unless one hit the streets recently) since the UL test was modified and the previously ones could not pass the new test (splattering was the issue I think). Roland On Oct 23, 2009, at 8:45 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: It isn't a very thin layer of oil. We are doing 4 fryers that are 6 ft wide by 18 ft long and hold about 250 gallons of oil at 325F. They run potato chips through on a conveyor. I'm not sure but I think the oil is at least 4-6 inches deep. I even have a letter from an FM type insurance company confirming the water deluge for the fryers. One of my concerns was amount of free board in the fryers. At about 150 gpm we will over flow the free board in a couple minutes. Then everything goes to the trench drain. We priced deluge, LP CO2 and Hifog. Deluge was least expensive, CO2 double the cost of deluge and mist was double the cost of CO2. The owner chose deluge. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 7:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may have contributedtofatalexplosion that's for a flat surface (thin layer of oil) verses a pan of oil (or deep aft fryer) Roland On Oct 23, 2009, at 5:51 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: Interesting video. Have you seen FM Data Sheet 7-20 Oil Cookers? It says to put a deluge system discharging at 0.5 gpm per sqft over the hot oil surface. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Water Filled Pipe in Telecomm Room?
Where does it say not exit electrical rooms? I know about the restricted space limitations and the required clearances. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water Filled Pipe in Telecomm Room? I think what is flagging you is the fact the electrical code causes us to enter and not exit electrical rooms and has restrictions on placement of pipe. You might check with the electrical inspector, or whoever would have that jurisdiction ,and see if it applies to the telecomm room as well. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brown, Mike Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 8:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water Filled Pipe in Telecomm Room? Also, I forgot to mention the telecomm room has no ceiling. Mike Brown Project Designer Sunland Fire Protection 1218 Elon Place High Point, NC 27263 Ph. 336.886.7027 Ext. 140 Fax: 336.886.7024 WWW.SUNLANDFIRE.COM -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water Filled Pipe in Telecomm Room? Nothing prevents you from running it above the room unless there's some military spec saying you can't. NFPA doesn't prevent it. Are you providing a sprinkler in the room? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brown, Mike Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water Filled Pipe in Telecomm Room? I working on a design for an existing military barrack... and the FPE is directing us to run our main through a telecomm room? I am trying to find something saying that I can or can't do this? Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. Mike Brown Project Designer Sunland Fire Protection 1218 Elon Place High Point, NC 27263 Ph. 336.886.7027 Ext. 140 Fax: 336.886.7024 WWW.SUNLANDFIRE.COM http://WWW.SUNLANDFIRE.COM ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Palletized storage in 35' building
12.1.3.4 sort of. But not a problem. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg Lindholm Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:32 AM To: SprinklerFORUM Subject: Palletized storage in 35' building We have a customer that has a 35' high building, but plans to store class III commodities on pallets to 16'. It seems that there might be a problem with that much clearance above the storage, but we cannot put our finger on where it #13 says that it is a problem.? Gregory Lindholm Metro Fire Protection, Inc. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: volume of EH1 vs. EH2
IFC Chapter 34. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Hinson, Ryan Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: volume of EH1 vs. EH2 Per NFPA13 (2007) section 5.4.2, EH2 is defined as having ...moderate to substantial amounts of flammable or combustible liquids Any ideas or suggestions on where to go for a quantifiable volume for this amount where the classification changes from ...little or no combustible or flammable liquids. (5.4.1) to moderate to substantial...? Thank you, Ryan L. Hinson, EIT, NICET III Fire Protection Systems Designer, Aviation and Facilities Group Minneapolis-St. Paul Office Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 Bloomington, MN 55437 Direct: 952-656-6003 Ext 3662 Fax: 952-229-2923 www.burnsmcd.com BLOCKED::www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies To Work For ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: UG Pipe Cover
Here where it doesn't freeze we rise up outside and elbow through the outside wall about 1.5 ft. above the floor. Build a 2'x2'x2' insulated dog house to enclose the pipe and it's freeze protected. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: UG Pipe Cover Sound like the only solution is to build a Riser Room outside of that foundation. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:19 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: UG Pipe Cover We have a situation where our underground leading in to a new riser room was going to cross a footing 10'Wx30'L x3'-0D. The top of footing is 5'-0 under grade so with 6 DI we could get our 3'-0 bury. Upon installation of the footer the usual things happen and the footer has been raised 3'-6. Other than bringing in dirt and raising the room, are there any other options out there anyone can think of. There is no way around the footer and there is only 4' of room on the back side to work so underneath is out of the question and the rebar is only 4 from the top within the footer so cutting a trench into it has been thrown out since they don't want us to cut the rebar, oh yeah they also don't want heat trace or insulation as an option. Can anyone think of any other suggestions? Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: A.8.15.1.2.1
There are lots of construction types that cannot be sprinklered in accordance with NFPA #13, at least not at a reasonable cost. Ever seen a building containing more than 12 ft high storage that has a roof pitch greater than 2/12? A couple of scenarios I have seen that don't fit into a convenient NFPA definition are 30 deep concrete tees with the stems less than 3 ft on center and 16 deep open web wood trusses 12 on center. Unusual types of construction more likely require sprinkler modifications than building modifications. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: A.8.15.1.2.1 Have you looked at the new data for the 36 or less concealed spaces with the specially listed heads? The only place in 13 that I am aware of that forces a BUILDING modification? I think that is very poor practice to start. Greg McGahan Operations Manager Living Water Fire Protection 1160 McKenzie Road P.O. Box 877 Cantonment, Florida 32533 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 g...@livingwaterfp.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: A.8.15.1.2.1 Yeah. This is one of those that I can't define it, but I know it when I see it things. My feeling is that it is going to need sprinklers. I haven't seen the space yet, just what the fitter and project manager relayed today. Anyway, the rooms are like a typical Holiday Inn 1st floor: conference rooms, offices, etc. The gyp goes to the deck in all of the rooms for the walls, so that is not an issue. For example, a conference room is 20x40. It has a 3' soffit at the perimeter that is framed in wood (2x4 @ 16 on center) to create the soffit. Does that qualify as minor combustibles? Not sure, but I don't want to make the judgment call. That is above my pay grade. We just realized another issue. The bottom of the concrete deck is 13'-8. This ceiling is at 10'-0. This exceeds the 36 max dimension allowed for the specially listed concealed space sprinklers. So, all of the piping would have to go to steel and use standard spray sprinklers. The project is turning into Pandora's box. I am not fully sure if the specially listed concealed space sprinklers could even be used in this application if it met the 36 requirement. I have to research that a bit more. I agree with Todd if it's the walls = sprinkler all. But I think the question is limited to gyp CIELINGS and SOFFITS. In that case I think '02-8.14.1.5 can help, Localized Protection of Exposed Combustible Construction. I do think you have to deal with it either way. Unless the area involved is really, really small like a few sq.ft. separated by 20's of feet to the next few sq.ft. IDK? Without seeing it can't advise on the judgment call on how small is small. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: A.8.15.1.2.1 Travis, I've always looked at limited combustible as a subjective term. You know what isn't, but not sure what is. If you have 2x's at 16 oc all over the place, chances are it isn't limited combustible. If they used a few pieces of wood to support and ceiling fixture in an otherwise N/C space, that would be limited. I usually work with the AHJ to come up with a consensus. That also stops a lot of arguments. Todd At 03:10 PM 9/30/2009, you wrote: We have a hotel designed per NFPA 13. The 2nd floor is concrete. The building plans showed the gyp board ceilings to be framed with non combustible channel. Therefore, the space above the 1st floor ceilings would be a non-combustible concealed space. However, when the fitters arrived on site, it was found that the GC has taken it upon himself to frame all of the gyp board ceilings / soffits on the first floor with wood. Would this be considered minimal / minor quantities of non structural wood? What is a decent defining factor for minor quantities? If sprinklers are required, the GC realized today that a change order is forth-coming. It is just an issue of scheduling to go back and get the first floor redesigned to accomodate the new construction. This project was also done with CPVC piping,
OH Extended coverage concealed sprinkler
Is there such a thing as an ordinary hazard extended coverage concealed sprinkler? Thanks in advance for the help. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 3:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: dry heads replacement long lengths NFPA 25 requires dry heads to be tested or replaced every 10 years. Some older dry pendents exceed 48 in length. UL no longer lists sprinklers longer than 48. Globe makes some longer sprinklers that are not listed. Is the answer to use the non listed Globe ones and ask the AHJ sign off on it? Forest Wilson Project Manager Cherokee Fire Protection Co. 3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900 Dayton OH 45434 ph: 937-376-2333 fx: 614-455-4324 cell: 937-307-5647 . Visit our blog: www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be solely for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. It is not intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the named addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named addressee). It should not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: technical issue
A preposition is a word you should never end a sentence with. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: technical issue George, Communication is communication. Content over context, especially here. I'll defer to the fact that Winston Churchill had a far greater mastery of the English language than I and here is what he had to say regarding a similar topic: Not ending sentences with prepositions is nonsense up with which I will not put. 'Nuff said. On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 8:33 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: 70% of the failures attributable to improperly closed valves is what I recall, don't know that we hit 97% but it wouldn't surpise me. I also recall 70% with 2 heads, 90-some% with 4 heads or less controlling fires. I'd email Jim Lake, staff liason for both 13 and 25- as close to applicable standards for the study as I can think of. Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition, Ron. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: technical issue NFPA did a report about 3-5 years ago on the topic of failures. My summary is if the valve is open and no one interferes with the system after the fire starts for all systems the failure rate is very, very tiny like to the extent it happens but isn't something we need to really worry about. KEEP THE DAMN VALVE OPEN! It's even divided by occupancy. LH are even smaller failure rate, storage and high hazard were more but still ridiculously low. This is the source of George's 70% comment but I don't recall the number. I thought it was like 97%. Or maybe 97% success and of the 3% failure 70% are from closed valves which leaves 0.9% of all systems would be successful if the valve was open. Who ever reads it please remind me. They, NFPA, also have save data from what the fire departments report. That's about the best you can get on that. And I'll tell you right now even FD's under report sprinkler saves even when they know about them. Less paper work is the motivator here. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: technical issue I'd suggest NFPA as the best source for this. Problem is, there is no nationwide clearinghouse recording this data like our friends Down Under have, so many of our saves are buried on page 72 of the newspaper, as in Sprinkler system floods building and in the last para they mention- oh, there was a fire but they ignore that the building was saved. Another source would be FM Global, or other major risk insurers. I'm trying to recall where I read that 70% of fires spkrs failed to control were caused by improperly closed valves- NFPA source, don't recall where it was published, tho. Along that line of thought, tho- when PA came out of the early 80's BOCA and into the I-Codes world in April, 2004, I asked LI if they were intending to require compliance with #25 via IBC ref to 13 ref to 25; the answer was that the intent of the legislature was specifically NOT to require any ITM with the new Uniform Construction Code based on IBC. (sigh) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 10:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: technical issue You guys are great, sometimes abrupt, sometime too silly, but great. I appreciate and enjoy most of the forum...Thanks, I need to know if anyone has statistics that show any data related to sprinkler system failure due to poor maintenance - for a small in house class I am doing btw. Thanks for your help. Greg McGahan Operations Manager Living Water Fire Protection 1160 McKenzie Road P.O. Box 877 Cantonment, Florida 32533 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 g...@livingwaterfp.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To
RE: Changing out ESFR
If the heads aren't changed the ESFR obstruction rules still apply. Manufacturing areas will typically have numerous obstructions greater than 24 wide that will require additional sprinklers. Then the system will have to be re-calculated for 13 or 14 flowing heads instead of the original 12 and the existing system may be able to handle the added flow. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Changing out ESFR Your right Ray, ESFR heads can be used to protect non storage areas according to Section 12.6.7: Large drop, control mode specific application and ESFR sprinklers shall be permitted to protect ordinary hazard, storage of Class I through Class IV commodities, plastic commodities, miscellaneous storage, and other storage as specified in Chapter 12 through Chapter 20 or by other NFPA standards. Dewayne -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ray Vance Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Changing out ESFR Why change them out at all? I do believe the ESFR sprinklers can continue to be utilized as the protection scheme for the manufacturing area, as well as the remainder of the warehouse, unless the insurance company you are dealing with will not allow it. And the new draft curtains would then not be required. Someone please correct me, if I am wrong ;-) Ray Vance - SET Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. www.waynefire.com 407-877-5563 office 321-436-2184 mobile -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Stough Sent: 2009-09-16 12:14 PM To: Sprinkler -Forum Subject: Changing out ESFR I have a customer that is changing part of the warehouse to a manufacturing area. The warehouse is presently covered by 2 ESFR systems. Can I change the ESFR's to upright sprinklers over the manufacturing area? The spot where we would make the change is at a grooved coupling in the 2-1/2 lines. The ESFR's are 3/4 spaced 9' X 9. We should have the deflector at the 12 level when we spin the pipe (hopefully) or raise them an inch or two. The insurance company is mandating a draft curtain between the two different sprinkler types, so we will have the proper separation. Of course we will have to provide calculations to prove it, but am I missing anything? Jay Stough ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: more bad news
Numerous times locally we have had problems with water supply not being what it should. For instance the flow test was now half of what it was six months ago. We would call the water company tell them a valve was closed somewhere. They would check into it and always call back saying everything was fully open and they didn't find a problem. The next day miraculously we would have the water we had expected. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of ParsleyConsulting Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: more bad news Terri, That really caught my eye, too, particularly in light of how the quote from the water department assured the reporter that everything was fine. I'm going to try and get more information on this as it develops. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website Terri Leyton wrote: Interesting to note that the workers grabbed a hose, only found a trickle of water Hmmm. Water supply issue?? And after trying to stop the fire with extinguishers, a maintenance worker and other mill workers grabbed a hose that produced just a trickle of water, said Scott Alvord, interim chief for the Weaverville Fire Protection District. Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING Ph: 858-751-2930 - ext. 101 Fax:858-751-2933 Cell: 619-871-8450 Don't be content in your life just to do no wrong. Be prepared every day to try and do some good. --Sir Nicolas Winton -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: more bad news Hmmm.. Potentially a pipe schedule systems protecting a storage occupancy? I have been wondering when someone is going to start mandating hydraulic calculations on pipe schedule systems oprotecting storage and other high-challenge occupancies. At 01:03 PM 9/16/2009, you wrote: This doesn't sound good, looks like the finger pointing has already started... http://www.redding.com/news/2009/sep/16/failed-sprinkler-system-at-weave rville-mill-two/ -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4430 (20090916) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4430 (20090916) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To
RE: Fire Flow
Ron. With a city supply we calc the fire flow separate from the sprinkler demand. I don't see why it would be any different with a tank. The onsite underground would not be sized to flow both simultaneously so I don't see why the tank would be sized for both. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 12:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Flow The reduction has already been approved. The fire flow demand is to supply a hydrant on the property. My question is (and no fire marshal to ask today),is the sprinkler demand included or need to be added? This tank supplies all fire water needs (no jokes-I know what you're all thinking) for this property. On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:50 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: If you're talking about the fire flows referenced in the IFC, Appendix B, this seems to be an AHJ or IU call. For the most part when the building is fully sprinklered only the sprinkler system demand and hose stream demands are used for water tank sizing. I've not had one AHJ or IU apply the fire flow section of the IFC to the water supply when those conditions exist. Now when a building is not protected I have had this section of the IFC applied. However note that this section is not mandatory and is not a part of the actual Code. See wording at the top of the first page. So it requires clarification from the AHJ and/or IU as to what is applicable. But if there is no direction we use it as the basis. Also note that the 75% reduction is up to 75% and as approved, so it's not an automatic reduction. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Flow When determining tank size on a property supplied only from a tank is the sprinkler demand added to fire flow as a cumulative fire flow or is it considered part of the fire flow? And if the former does the hose stream need to be added or is it negated by the fact that the tank is already supplying the hydrants? Example: 30,000 sqft fully sprinklered building requires a fire flow (reduced 75% then rounded up to the minimum) of 1500 gpm for 2 hours requiring a 180,000 gallon tank. The sprinkler demand is 650 gpm plus a 250 gpm hose stream for one hour for a total of 54,000 gallons. Is the 54K gallons included in whole or in part with the fire flow storage or is it added? Thanks. -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
[Sprinklerforum] C factor for stainless steel pipe
What C Factor should be used for stainless steel pipe? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: [Sprinklerforum] C factor for stainless steel pipe
Thanks! I looked right at it but all I saw was copper. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 From: Jim Zimmerman [mailto:zimm...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:57 AM To: Fletcher, Ron Subject: Re: [Sprinklerforum] C factor for stainless steel pipe NFPA 13 (2007) Table 22.4.4.7 On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote: What C Factor should be used for stainless steel pipe? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: water pressure recorder/reader
http://www.dicksondata.com/info/home.php Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Craig Small Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: water pressure recorder/reader Looking for information on a water pressure recorder/reader to put in a pit? Prefer a remote reading ability for this application. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Craig D. Small ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: To consider walls or to not consider walls, that is the question
I wouldn't calc a RA straddling the wall. The wall makes a great draft stop. Depending on how the system is spaced the minimum 960 sqft RA may become a consideration. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: To consider walls or to not consider walls, that is the question Unrated wall constructed of metal studs and gypsum board. The deck is ~30' and the tallest opening in the wall is 12' up. In this case the wall is running 40' parallel to a BL. There are perpendicular walls at each end of the 40' wall. The space on each side is cut off from the other side completely except for a couple doors. It happens to be ESFR but I don't think that is relevant to the question. The wall is 1' off an existing BL. Thus I need to add a row of heads on the other side of the wall. The question is can I consider the wall as a sufficient blocker of heat to only calc the remote area on one side or the other side of the wall. Never a RA straddling the wall. I'm not talking about largest room rule. Either side would have a full RA calc as necessary. It's very much like in grocery stores where the back room is long and narrow. With the length of the RA and 1 or 2 BL you come up short on sq.ft. So in those cases all that I've seen jump the wall to get the sq.ft. necessary. This would be the inverse I want to take advantage of the wall. In this case I don't what to jump the wall with the RA and pipe the new line off the existing line. Basically I'd have 2 BL's 2' apart tied together but never calc'ed together. The mains are very far away through occupied territory with ceilings or I'd just run to them. This also creates a 960 sq.ft. problem if I do have to calc both line simultaneously. I'd be under with only 4 heads on 3 lines which then leave the question do I add a 5th or use a 4th line as necessary. Yes I know the 960 is the 13 committee not believing in the concept of counting heads and hung up on the old fashion sq.ft. way. Should be interesting with FM changing away from sq.ft. calcs in many cases with special app heads. Seems to me when not using the largest room rule the code is silent on the issue of whether you need/can jump the wall. Thus wouldn't it be designer's choice and thus go which ever way is most hydraulically advantageous to keep pipe size and quantity down?Common sense tells me these heads are never going to simultaneously operate. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Renegade HVAC Contractor
Here is a different approach. Most of the comments are what we would all like to do in that situation but not very realistic. Picking fights with other trades and GC's is nonproductive at best and may cost more in the long run than just getting it done. Especially if you ever want to work with the same construction team again. Next time with this GC you will know to install first and install high. Deal with the duct work when cutting drops. High and tight will usually eliminate most coordination problems. Just my 2 cents. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic - Phoenix -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:35 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Renegade HVAC Contractor If he messes up your project, the Project Manager/ GC is at fault and creating delay and posibly additional expenses for you to complete your work. Place a Change Order request with the GC or notice of claim asap for additional field engineering and delay. You must assert this claim right away. The GC will likely brush it off if it is a smaller project but they'll know your serious when you lien the project. Documentation of everything is extremely important. -Original Message- From: Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: RE: Renegade HVAC Contractor Make sure you set up a camera to get video of them taking it down At 02:02 PM 7/30/2009, you wrote: You could consider just throwing up a couple lengths of pipe alongside the big openings on their trunk duct, amking sure you're the size of the opening + 6 away from it so you've accommodated the offsets they'd need to get around you. Start with the openings just outside the meeting room. A couple lengths under roof top openings should give them a clue that you're serious. In one day you should be able to hang a couple lengths in front of several of these, no outlets required, helps you make your point. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Renegade HVAC Contractor At least you are not spending money and time on BIM while all the other trades are doing installation. Remember the sprinkler creed install high install first. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Renegade HVAC Contractor I could use a little ammo for an upcoming coordination meeting I have on Monday. We are working on a pretty big school and the HVAC sub (per the spec) is suppose to be spearheading a set of coordination drawings that all subs need to agree on and then sigh off on before any work can be fabricated or installed. These drawings still have not been completed and are actually not even close to being done. Here's where it gets good: * He has already begun installing his duct and has actually completed a couple wings. (without the approved coordination drawings) * He wants to run all his ductwork 8 above ceiling throughout and says sprinkler pipe needs to run above him, that's industry standard !! * He says he's never heard of ductwork being run through the joist, it's always the sprinkler lines that run up high. (this is in areas with ceiling tiles) I could go on and on but I think you get the point, what I would love to have is some hard facts/references that I can provide at the meeting so this doesn't turn into a bigger pissing contest than it already has. I don't dare release our pipe for fab without the drawings being signed off but in the mean time he is installing away! Regards, http://www.firstdefensefire.com/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441) Database version: 6.12940 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington
RE: Renegade HVAC Contractor
At least you are not spending money and time on BIM while all the other trades are doing installation. Remember the sprinkler creed install high install first. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Renegade HVAC Contractor I could use a little ammo for an upcoming coordination meeting I have on Monday. We are working on a pretty big school and the HVAC sub (per the spec) is suppose to be spearheading a set of coordination drawings that all subs need to agree on and then sigh off on before any work can be fabricated or installed. These drawings still have not been completed and are actually not even close to being done. Here's where it gets good: * He has already begun installing his duct and has actually completed a couple wings. (without the approved coordination drawings) * He wants to run all his ductwork 8 above ceiling throughout and says sprinkler pipe needs to run above him, that's industry standard !! * He says he's never heard of ductwork being run through the joist, it's always the sprinkler lines that run up high. (this is in areas with ceiling tiles) I could go on and on but I think you get the point, what I would love to have is some hard facts/references that I can provide at the meeting so this doesn't turn into a bigger pissing contest than it already has. I don't dare release our pipe for fab without the drawings being signed off but in the mean time he is installing away! Regards, http://www.firstdefensefire.com/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441) Database version: 6.12940 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: 54' High Warehouse
ESFR's are very limited, averaging the height is not allowed. There is also a 20 ft maximum limit for distance from the top of storage to the roof sprinklers but I don't know if applies when there are in-rack sprinklers. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of lamarvau...@charter.net Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 1:27 PM To: sprinklerforum: firesprinkler.org Subject: 54' High Warehouse Hello Forumites, I'm looking at a warehouse with pallet rack storage of class iv commodities to 25 ft. in a pre-engineered building with an eave height of 34 ft. and a ridge of 54 ft.(2 in 12 slope).Table 12.3.2.3.1 (2002) indicates a maximum roof height of 45 ft.My question is ,can I average the roof height to stay within the table limits,or is ESFR out of the possibilities?Is there any other way to satisfy the roof height issue? Thanks for the Help, Lamar Vaughn,SET Vaughn and Company ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: RPZ backflow protection
It is found in the 2006 Uniform Plumbing Code 603.4.16.2 says that if you have an FDC you need an RPZ. It isn't in the IPC. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Fallon Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 7:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RPZ backflow protection The plumbing inspectors have been concerned that the lubricate in fire truck pumps could contaminate the domestic water supply and would like RPZs installed on systems with FDCs. Has anyone else faced this problem Staff opinion: Unless otherwise noted ,the response provided above is a staff opinion provided by a member of the Construction Codes and Licensing Division. A staff opinion is the opinion of one staff member about the correct answer to a specific question generated by a customer. The opinion is not binding. Jim Fallon Building Code Representative Plan Review MN Dept of Labor Industry Construction Codes Licensing Division (651) 284 5861 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age
What information are you looking for? We installed monitors in a tent in Scottsdale where they have the Barrett Jackson auto auction every year. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Frans Stoop Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 5:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age Dear colleagues, If my memory serves me right, there was an article in Sprinkler Age some years ago about how a contractor installed water monitors inside a dome structure. Installing sprinklers was impossible because the main structure was only an (inflatable?) membrane. I tried to retrieve that article by digging through old years of Sprinkler Age but unfortunately I couldn't find it. Or was it in Fire Journal? Does anyone of you happens to remember that article and can point me to the right year and number? Frans Stoop TOS architecture fire protection Netherlands f.st...@tosfire.com Tel. +31-24-324 0112 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Conveyors
IMHO no heads under the conveyor. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 8:33 AM To: AFSA SprinklerFORUM Subject: Conveyors Here is my situation: Conveyors used to move mattresses around the building which has an ESFR sprinkler system, they are 7'-3 wide and 2'-10 above finished floor. The conveyors have 2 1/2 rollers and there is a gap of 3 1/2 between the rollers, my call is that additional ESFR's are not required there is more open space than in most rack systems. What is the opinion of the Forum? Mike Hairfield ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
AFSA website
Is there still a generic log in and password? It's been a while since I tried logging in. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hydrant Flow test results
If it's a municipal water supply the two graphs will probably not be the same. The graph isn't from a zero flow to the 2.5 flow and then the 4.5 flow. If there was 2,000 gpm domestic flow at the time of the test the graph is actually from 2,000 to 2,000 plus the 2.5 flow or 2,000 plus the 4.5flow. The N1.85 graph we use doesn't take the domestic demand into account. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Paul Pinigis Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hydrant Flow test results Any single-hydrant test is questionable to begin with, but if two tests are done they should yield identical graphs. Pitot pressures of less than 10 psi are generally unacceptable. Paul Pinigis, P.E. Life Safety Department Head -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lindner Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 3:25 PM To: sprinklerforum Subject: Hydrant Flow test results Have a question regarding hydrant flow tests. We have received a report where the contractor flow a single 2 1/2 outlet and gave us static, residual, pitot and calculated flow. He then performed another test using the 4 1/2 outlet on the hydrant, again giving us values. Plotting the graph, is there supposed to be a correlation between the testing of the 2 1/2 versus the 4 1/2 or are they supposed to be used separately. For example, when graphing the 2 1/2 outlet, the 4 1/2 outlet info should be hitting this line or not?? Also, is a pitot reading of a range of 4 to say 8 on a 4 1/2 outlet valid data? We're not sure how to use this info. Richard ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC Concealed Space Installation
We have used insulation covering the CPVC as a separation many times. We have even used copper pipe through the insulation to sprig SSU's into the attic for NFPA #13 systems. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: CPVC Concealed Space Installation Rich, You are allowed to delete sprinklers from concealed spaces filled with non-combustible insulation. I'd bet this has to do with oxygen. You can also use non or limited combustible insulation (batts and panels) firmly attached to a ceiling to effectively lower that ceiling. When you put cpvc in an SFD or apartment the tenting of the pipe effectively places it within the thermal envelope of the structure rather than without but the area the pipe occupies is not required to be sprinklered anyways. So we're using insulation as a means of turning a hollow space into a solid space, we're using it as a sort of fire barrier or heat banking surface, and we're using it as a (low level) thermal barrier or insulator. I've never heard of it used to separate one fire area from another though. And horizontally! A twisting of the real allowances offered in the code may produce some logic path that suggests this application is OK. And it may even be occurring regularly (bad ideas as well as good tend to find voice simultaneously in many minds and tend to grow exponentially), but this doesn't mean it is a good idea, nor it does it sound like an appropriate application of the provisions. In fact it just sounds wrong and I think easier to argue against than for. I'm guessing a submittal is what prompted your question. On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:26 AM, R Richardsonr.richard...@seattle.gov wrote: The installation guide for CPVC is quite clear that the pipe shall not be installed in combustible concealed spaces requiring sprinkler protection unless the protection in the space is provided by one of the specially listed heads for such an application. Simple enough. However if one is sprinklering the concealed space with standard heads instead of the special listed heads it is not real clear what the required separation is to consider the pipe not in the concealed space. Sure there are criteria for a concealed installation, but that is specific to separation from the room below that is being sprinklered. In the experience of the forum members is it normal to use insulation tented over the pipe in as a method of treating the pipe as not in the concealed space, eventhough the pipe is still kind of in the concealed space? Or is the norm to use the concealed installation criteria eventhough that seems specific to separation from the room below that is being sprinklered. This question is not related to freeze protection concerns. Thanks, Rich Richardson Seattle Fire Department ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Fire pumps and PLD
Assuming the pumps are installed parallel to each other I don't see any reason to spend the extra dollars for the PLD's. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Splawn, Shannon Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:06 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Fire pumps and PLD What's the best way to control/start multiple diesel fire pumps on a private yard system? Would fire pumps with Pressure Limiting Devices be the best choice? Each pump will be 2500 GPM @ 125 PSI. My original design was based on pressure drop in the mains at 10 second intervals for each pump to start. The jockey pump is nominally designed to maintain 170 PSI and this is an FM job. So my question is: Are PLD's the best way to select fire pumps/drivers when you have multiple pumps or is it best to select traditional type drivers? Thanks. Shannon Splawn, CFPS Jacobs Fire Protection | Mechanical Engineering Dept. 513.674.3822 shannon.spl...@jacobs.com NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: DoD UFC - 13R System Design
Bill, An excellent idea, please count me in. There are many things could be better defined. We currently involved in a number of 13R projects at DOD facilities. Most have common areas like dayrooms, laundry rooms mechanical rooms and so on but the entire building is classified as R2 occupancy, not mixed use. The UFGS is another thing all together. There is some down right goofy stuff in there. Like access panels to inspect and adjust grooved couplings above a sheet rock ceiling. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bill.bro...@brooksfpe.com Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 8:34 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: DoD UFC - 13R System Design I know there are quite a few individuals out there who work with the UFC 3-600-01. Perhaps we can start a discussion about the application of the DoD 13R criteria. After working a number of jobs using NFPA 13R I find the application of this document is not clearly defined in UFC 3-600-01. We have already discussed the use of 13R in a mixed use building (can't do it per the IBC but maybe not so clear per UFC 3-600-01). My suggested DoD 13R approach: 1. Inside the dwelling unit use the calculation criteria from NFPA 13R (not UFC Table 4-1), supplemented by UFGS 21 21 00, 1.3.2. 2. Sprinkler calculation outside the dwelling unit would be per NFPA 13 and not Table 4-1 in the UFC (3000 sq ft with ceiling height reduction, etc). 3. Room design rule can be applied (vs full 3000 sq ft with ceiling height reduction) outside the dwelling unit. 4. No hose stream (vs a hint that some hose stream should be applied by the fill-in-the-blank spot in UFGS 21 21 00, ). For four story buildings a standpipe system is required, but the water supply will most likely be supplied by the local fire department. I've requested clarification on this topic without success, but I wanted to put a set of guidelines out there for discussion. Questions: 1. How are the list members now applying 13R for DoD work? 2. Have any of you ever received specific guidance from DoD reps on this topic? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: review of sprinkler plans ends up with GC requesting the reviewer to provide additional plan sheet because con tractor don´t want to
Has anyone read the RFQ? Was the intent for a remodel (tenant improvement) or a re-build to meet current codes? The UFGS is a guide specification and is suppose to be edited for each project. If the spec. wasn't edited to suit the project it would include bunch of stuff that probably isn't applicable. The spec's can be applied with common sense appropriate to the project or parsed to make compliance impossible (at a reasonable cost). After all it is a light hazard MOB not high piled storage. And don't forget that grooved couplings can only be used above a sheet rock ceiling if the plans (Architectural) show an access panel at each coupling. Couplings require regular adjustment according to UFGS. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: review of sprinkler plans ends up with GC requesting the reviewer to provide additional plan sheet because contractor don´t want to Scot, As the cat slowly escapes his bag: Sounds like a Federal Job (they do have the military still) but the spec sounds like it's written by a contracting officer rather than a Government PE. The Corps and NAVFAC guys are pretty savvy. You should get real familiar with Unified Facilities Guide Specifications (UFGS), SpecsIntact the Unified Facilities Criteria (UFC) if doing work for the military. Here's alink: http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/browse_org.php?o=70 If the guy writing the spec had followed his own rules your life would be much improved at this time. You may still be able to use your newly acquired knowledge to your advantage in a, According to your own guidelines here's how you guys were supposed to do things like this, debate. Bon chance. On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:54 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: Again, accept my thanks.to all of you. seriously. i will take the black and the blue cause i am learning on you. I am not out to break the contractor's bank. working with this national contracting company-- at least this office of theirs-- has been frustrating and time consuming. the specs are not ideal. the specs are for the GC, who hires the sprinkler contractor and then hires an engineer to review the sprinkler contractor's drawings (me). I want the government to get a reasonable product, and receive a water supply description they can refer to in the future, because these buildings have a service life of 35-50 years and will probably be renovated again, like they were before in '94. So, I will let the earthquake bracing issue fall. I don't want to be unreasonable, just that almost all military jobs I worked on, seismic is required, regardless if the job is in Oklahoma or in Northridge, CA. it seemed like a natural thing to ask for. Regarding waterflow, I would be happy with a JPEG of the UG piping plan splashed on a sheet, or even hand drawn layout. Just document the underground and water supply like NFPA 13 asks. The renovation has a changed wall layout, and new design area. To get the UG water supply and waterflow information documented, the GC is forwarding to me the civil engineer's work, and I am going to put the UG piping and waterflow on a new sheet with my letterhead and name. This is the quickest way to get it done. The government PE (I am not sure if it is the same one that wrote the spec, but i got a suspicion) has stated to the GC that they are concerned the contract FPE (me) has not been doing his job. that was after i went through 3 plan check cycles with this contractor on another project, over the same things. The government PE apparently did not have a clue about what was going on, or the sprinkler contractor gave him a clue. Earthquake bracing was provided on that project as it was new construction. same specs were used though. I think the military contract FPE model is tweaked. the contract FPE serves two masters. but only one pays me: the GC. only thing is, the other master is the one that pays the GC. scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: wood frame attics
Why would the sprinklers under the plywood have to be included in the remote area? Isn't it like putting a head under a duct or some other obstruction? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
