[Biofuel] WVO contaminated with polyester resin

[Mike Erdman]

Hi 

I am new to this list, but have been making my own biodiesel for about three
years.

 

I have recently been given about 400 litres of WVO which unfortunately was
put into drums that had contained fibreglass resin, I have let this stand
for about 3 months and drawn oil from the middle of the drum. This oil
titrates @ 1.4g/Lt KOH, I use a base amount of 7.7g/Lt (the KOH is 90%
pure). When processed all seemed OK with the oil and glycerine separating
well with no intermediate layer. However when washed with a mist spray the
biodiesel became very frothy and I lost a lot of the oil in the wash, what
remained eventually settled into 3 layers - water/a white layer a bit like
cream/biodiesel.

 

Is there anything I can do to either remove to resin or neutralise it's
effects? Any ideas would be helpfull

 

Mike Erdman

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20120122/d1950ca3/attachment.html 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Keith Addison]

Hei Gavin

>hei keith,
>
>thanks for feedback + links, i was introducing our idea to the rest of 
>the group as well.
>
>i did read the links, which is why i ask for input about centrifuges 
>as none of those points are addressed in the video. if centrifuges 
>dont work well as you say, are they being dishonest? any guess about 
>their method + why they consider it good enough for their purposes?

I don't think he's being dishonest, just ignorant. It's still a 
widespread myth that you can chuck any kind of WVO into a diesel and 
"Hey, it runs great!" is all that matters. A major reason that people 
choose WVO rather than making biodiesel is that they're frightened of 
titration, and the news that they have to titrate it anyway isn't 
exactly welcome. So many of them go into denial about it, not many 
SVO sites will tell you you have to titrate the oil. But, sadly, it's 
true - there's no way of telling how much free fatty acid the oil 
contains unless you titrate it, and excess FFAs will certainly damage 
the fuel injection system. It's not just us who say so - see what the 
Fuel Injection Equipment Manufacturers (Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, 
Bosch) say about Free Fatty Acids:


Again, a centrifuge will not remove free fatty acids.

The other major reason people go for WVO rather than biodiesel is 
that they're frightened of all those terrible deadly poisonous 
chemicals. Actually they're not very deadly, and if you follow the 
directions at the Journey to Forever website Biodiesel section 
they're not dangerous either.

>we would prefer to do as much as possible on site rather than prepare 
>it beforehand, in order to demonstrate the process + enable people to 
>copy the system

Then you'll have to titrate the oil, or not only risk damaging your 
own diesel generator but advising other people to risk damaging 
theirs.

>as for chemicals, perhaps they are common but not generally available 
>in such small quantities as we would need,

I'm sure that's not so. Lab supply companies can supply small 
quantities, for instance to schools.

>+ they would compete for 
>space in the ride with our sound gear. crossing certain international 
>borders we have in mind might become more problematic than it usually 
>is. not saying it's impossible tho.

I doubt it would be a problem.

>i disagree about the mikkonen factor, woodgas was very common across 
>this region in the middle of the last century, and it's an obvious 
>solution for some of our energy problems today. many others have 
>designed and built their own system,

Not very many, it's rather rare. It's also not so simple, there's a 
lot of gungy stuff in woodgas that has to be removed first.

>+ free wood is readily available. 
>he was only interested in selling plans that we would have to keep 
>confidential for 'personal use', and would not point us to people who 
>can reliably build it. we operate on open source basis

Yes, indeed.

>sori if i wasn't clear, we are not yet running a vehicle on the fuel, 
>we intend to generate electricity only. thanks for your patience + 
>explanations!

You're welcome. All best

Keith

>best,
>/g.
>
>
>
>>  Hei Gavin
>>
>>>  hei keith,
>>>
>>>  our organization consists of musicians who want to take 
>>>  responsibility
>>>  for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can
>>>  power our live sound needs sustainably.
>>
>>  Yes I know that, otherwise I wouldn't have ventured an opinion.
>>
>>>  wvo biodiesel is a great idea
>>>  in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: 
>>>  sourcing
>>>  + transporting chemicals across international borders,
>>
>>  How so? What chemicals?
>>
>>>  varied wvo
>>>  sources,
>>
>>  What's the difficulty with that? I don't think anybody else has any 
>>  difficulty.
>>
>>>  and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too
>>>  difficult compared to e.g. woodgas
>>
>>  It's probably only in Finland that people would make that comparison,
>>  thanks to Vesa Mikkonen.
>>
>>>  it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same
>  >> reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited
>>>  settling time),
>>
>>  Again, how so? Make it in advance in Helsinki and take it with you.
>>  I've done such things without any difficulty, so have many others.
>>
>>>  if it is capable of generating electricity for live
>>>  sound gear without all the chemical inputs,
>>
>>  Methanol and potassium hydroxide are extremely common chemicals,
>>  available everywhere, certainly in Helsinki.
>>
>>>  glycerol byproduct + other
>>>  difficulties.
>>
>>  What's the difficulty with the by-product? What other difficulties?
>>
>>>  we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we
>>>  just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/
>>>  coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world.
>>
>>  You're far from alone in that too. We have several times provided
>>  biodiesel to p

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Gavin Kalan]

hei keith,

thanks for feedback + links, i was introducing our idea to the rest of  
the group as well.

i did read the links, which is why i ask for input about centrifuges  
as none of those points are addressed in the video. if centrifuges  
dont work well as you say, are they being dishonest? any guess about  
their method + why they consider it good enough for their purposes?

we would prefer to do as much as possible on site rather than prepare  
it beforehand, in order to demonstrate the process + enable people to  
copy the system

as for chemicals, perhaps they are common but not generally available  
in such small quantities as we would need, + they would compete for  
space in the ride with our sound gear. crossing certain international  
borders we have in mind might become more problematic than it usually  
is. not saying it's impossible tho.

i disagree about the mikkonen factor, woodgas was very common across  
this region in the middle of the last century, and it's an obvious  
solution for some of our energy problems today. many others have  
designed and built their own system, + free wood is readily available.  
he was only interested in selling plans that we would have to keep  
confidential for 'personal use', and would not point us to people who  
can reliably build it. we operate on open source basis

sori if i wasn't clear, we are not yet running a vehicle on the fuel,  
we intend to generate electricity only. thanks for your patience +  
explanations!

best,
/g.



> Hei Gavin
>
>> hei keith,
>>
>> our organization consists of musicians who want to take  
>> responsibility
>> for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can
>> power our live sound needs sustainably.
>
> Yes I know that, otherwise I wouldn't have ventured an opinion.
>
>> wvo biodiesel is a great idea
>> in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances:  
>> sourcing
>> + transporting chemicals across international borders,
>
> How so? What chemicals?
>
>> varied wvo
>> sources,
>
> What's the difficulty with that? I don't think anybody else has any  
> difficulty.
>
>> and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too
>> difficult compared to e.g. woodgas
>
> It's probably only in Finland that people would make that comparison,
> thanks to Vesa Mikkonen.
>
>> it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same
>> reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited
>> settling time),
>
> Again, how so? Make it in advance in Helsinki and take it with you.
> I've done such things without any difficulty, so have many others.
>
>> if it is capable of generating electricity for live
>> sound gear without all the chemical inputs,
>
> Methanol and potassium hydroxide are extremely common chemicals,
> available everywhere, certainly in Helsinki.
>
>> glycerol byproduct + other
>> difficulties.
>
> What's the difficulty with the by-product? What other difficulties?
>
>> we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we
>> just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/
>> coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world.
>
> You're far from alone in that too. We have several times provided
> biodiesel to power the generators at big two-day summer music
> festivals here in Japan. No need for centrifuges.
>
>> keeping it as simple as practical!
>
> I disagree. Also you don't seem to have read what's at the links I  
> gave you:
>
>>> Centrifuges
>>> 
>>>
>>> Also:
>>>
>>> Filtering WVO
>>> 
>>>
>>> Filtering biodiesel
>>> 
>
> Centrifuges don't work well. And biodiesel is much better fuel than
> WVO anyway. What sort of WVO kit are you planning to fit to your
> vehicles? (Yes, it needs a kit, not cheap - unless you're willing to
> put the fuel system at risk.) Are you aware that you'll have to make
> sure that the WVO you collect is suitable for use as SVO fuel? That
> means titrating it:
>
> Fuel quality
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#gnl
>
> Titration for SVO
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#titsvo
>
> Titration for SVO is the same process as for making biodiesel, but
> the purpose is different. With biodiesel, it simply tells you how
> much catalyst to use, then you go ahead and do it. With SVO, however,
> it tells you whether the fuel is usable or not, and if it's not you
> have to find a source of better-quality oil. It's not less trouble,
> it's more trouble. If you're hoping that a centrifuge can solve the
> oil quality problem, forget it - the high levels of acids in
> poor-quality oils cannot be removed by a centrifuge. The only way to
> do that is to use a chemical process called transesterification,
> which is how you make biodiesel.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>> /g.
>>
>>
>> On 12 May, 2010, at 21:29 , Keith Addison wrote:
>>
>>> Hello

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Keith Addison]

Hei Gavin

>hei keith,
>
>our organization consists of musicians who want to take responsibility 
>for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can 
>power our live sound needs sustainably.

Yes I know that, otherwise I wouldn't have ventured an opinion.

>wvo biodiesel is a great idea 
>in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: sourcing 
>+ transporting chemicals across international borders,

How so? What chemicals?

>varied wvo 
>sources,

What's the difficulty with that? I don't think anybody else has any difficulty.

>and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too 
>difficult compared to e.g. woodgas

It's probably only in Finland that people would make that comparison, 
thanks to Vesa Mikkonen.

>it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same 
>reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited 
>settling time),

Again, how so? Make it in advance in Helsinki and take it with you. 
I've done such things without any difficulty, so have many others.

>if it is capable of generating electricity for live 
>sound gear without all the chemical inputs,

Methanol and potassium hydroxide are extremely common chemicals, 
available everywhere, certainly in Helsinki.

>glycerol byproduct + other 
>difficulties.

What's the difficulty with the by-product? What other difficulties?

>we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we 
>just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/
>coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world.

You're far from alone in that too. We have several times provided 
biodiesel to power the generators at big two-day summer music 
festivals here in Japan. No need for centrifuges.

>keeping it as simple as practical!

I disagree. Also you don't seem to have read what's at the links I gave you:

>  > Centrifuges
>>  
>>
>>  Also:
>>
>>  Filtering WVO
>>  
>>
>>  Filtering biodiesel
>>  

Centrifuges don't work well. And biodiesel is much better fuel than 
WVO anyway. What sort of WVO kit are you planning to fit to your 
vehicles? (Yes, it needs a kit, not cheap - unless you're willing to 
put the fuel system at risk.) Are you aware that you'll have to make 
sure that the WVO you collect is suitable for use as SVO fuel? That 
means titrating it:

Fuel quality
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#gnl

Titration for SVO
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#titsvo

Titration for SVO is the same process as for making biodiesel, but 
the purpose is different. With biodiesel, it simply tells you how 
much catalyst to use, then you go ahead and do it. With SVO, however, 
it tells you whether the fuel is usable or not, and if it's not you 
have to find a source of better-quality oil. It's not less trouble, 
it's more trouble. If you're hoping that a centrifuge can solve the 
oil quality problem, forget it - the high levels of acids in 
poor-quality oils cannot be removed by a centrifuge. The only way to 
do that is to use a chemical process called transesterification, 
which is how you make biodiesel.

Best

Keith


>/g.
>
>
>On 12 May, 2010, at 21:29 , Keith Addison wrote:
>
>>  Hello Gavin
>>
>>>  anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight 
>>>  appreciated!
>>>
>>> 
>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society
>>>
>>>  /g.
>>
>>  He has a reason to use a centrifuge - he's mobile, he collects the
>>  oil as he travels, there's no time to let it settle.
>>
>>  But I don't think you're on the move in the same way, are you? If
>>  not, you don't need a centrifuge. See:
>  > Centrifuges
>>  
>>
>>  Also:
>>
>>  Filtering WVO
>>  
>>
>>  Filtering biodiesel
>>  
>  >
>>  K.I.S.S.
>>
>>  Best
>  >
>  > Keith


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Gavin Kalan]

hei keith,

our organization consists of musicians who want to take responsibility  
for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can  
power our live sound needs sustainably. wvo biodiesel is a great idea  
in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: sourcing  
+ transporting chemicals across international borders, varied wvo  
sources, and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too  
difficult compared to e.g. woodgas

it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same  
reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited  
settling time), if it is capable of generating electricity for live  
sound gear without all the chemical inputs, glycerol byproduct + other  
difficulties. we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we  
just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/ 
coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world.

keeping it as simple as practical!
/g.


On 12 May, 2010, at 21:29 , Keith Addison wrote:

> Hello Gavin
>
>> anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight  
>> appreciated!
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society
>>
>> /g.
>
> He has a reason to use a centrifuge - he's mobile, he collects the
> oil as he travels, there's no time to let it settle.
>
> But I don't think you're on the move in the same way, are you? If
> not, you don't need a centrifuge. See:
> Centrifuges
> 
>
> Also:
>
> Filtering WVO
> 
>
> Filtering biodiesel
> 
>
> K.I.S.S.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000  
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Keith Addison]

Hello Gavin

>anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight appreciated!
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society
>
>/g.

He has a reason to use a centrifuge - he's mobile, he collects the 
oil as he travels, there's no time to let it settle.

But I don't think you're on the move in the same way, are you? If 
not, you don't need a centrifuge. See:
Centrifuges


Also:

Filtering WVO


Filtering biodiesel


K.I.S.S.

Best

Keith


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO

[Gavin Kalan]

anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight appreciated!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society

/g.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Keith Addison]

Hi Chip

Slow response, sorry.

>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>  Keith Addison wrote:
>   I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and
>   I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant
>   within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell
>   and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
>   outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal.
>   Thanks,
>   Roger
   Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
>>>  This is the US Keith :)
>>
>>  Yes, Chip, I know. :-)
>>
>>  But it just doesn't wash.
>
>Heh, Yeah, I was just stirring the pot. Mostly anyway.

:-) Thought you might be. (Though it seems indeed it didn't wash.)

>  > I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I
>>  know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each
>>  way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an
>>  850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas
>>  used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.)
>>
>>  Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you
>>  guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc
>>  K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and
>  > capable.
>
>Oh, how I know it!

So you do. That makes a pleasant change.

>Fellow up in my hometown, (that place that is 127miles from where
>I work?) has a bunch of K-trucks. It's funny, because EVERYONE loves
>them, everyone wants'em.

Yes! They're GREAT! They're creatures great and small.

>But since their road-legal-ness is suspect,

?? Then it's the road laws that are suspect.

>and they don't haul down the Interstates at 80+mph they get
>dismissed. In order to import them them to the US, they have to
>be governed to max speed of 25mph.

Aarghh!! HOW can you do that to a K-truck??! Sheesh!

>It's kinda silly all in all.

Yeah, kinda.

>There are special classes of vehicles that some states allow
>to be operated on state highways and road with a posted speed
>limit of 45mph or less. the K-truck would fit this nicely. It's
>just too radical an idea, for now, for the US.

I can see how it might look a little radical to the Big 3, or the 
Five Sisters, or to Wall St or Washington or Dick Cheney, but what's 
that matter if everyone else loves them and wants them? LOL!

>I love tiny vehicles. Love them. The smallest car I ever had
>was a Fiat 650.

Heh - whose is smaller. I had a Fiat 500, in London in 78-79. I 
bought it from Ivor Richard, who was a labour cabinet minister, it 
was said to be quite a sight seeing Ivor heave his large and portly 
frame out of his Fiat 500 on arrival at Westminster in the morning. 
It didn't mind traffic jams much, you could sort of squirm through 
them. It was red, same colour as London buses. It looked a bit like a 
lifeboat you could hang from davits off the top deck of a London bus 
in case the bus sank in the traffic.

>But as you know, there are much smaller cars
>than that. When I lived in Germany in the mid-80s, for a while
>I had a Citroen deux chevaux, which relative to some things, was
>pretty big. I could use it on the Autobahn, legally. it was capable
>of hitting 130kph.

Amazing car. Lots of people drove them from Europe to South Africa, 
it was almost the vehicle of choice (with the Peugeot 404). You had 
to spend not many bucks on the suspension or something and then you 
could cross the Sahara, or whatever. Also the 2CV before that, 
similar.

>What I wanted was a Renault 4 Fourgonnette (box
>van) like a buddy of mine had.

Another amazing car. I had a Renault 4 in Holland, and then England, 
my partner Christine had the box van version. She's probably still 
got it. I really liked the 4. Heh - there was an "Irish" joke in 
London at the time, someone asked an Irishman, "What do you think of 
the Renault 4?" Answer: "They're innocent!"

>a fellow I used to play darts with
>had one of those bmw isetta 600s, the 'big' Isetta :)

That's cheating. :-)

>As you probably know however, seems that a lot of Americans
>greatly enjoy hammering down the road in 3+ton gvw SUVs
>while jabbering on cellphones and slamming into one another.

Yes, I've heard that about them. I think they're going to have to 
change their ways in the end though, there are signs those days might 
be over.

>Simply put, Yer old 660 mini wouldn't be safe here, not
>in this part of the country, with it's traffic density, and
>complete disregard for all road use courtesy.

:-( I'll take your word for it.

>I still have a saab sonett that I quit driving a few
>years because I could not longer enjoy it.

Nice though.

>Got rid of my last
>VW rabbit (the real rabbit, the G1 golf) at about the same
>time, bought a '98 subaru legacy outback hoping to survive
>the eventual altercation with a Ford Excursion or Chevy Tahoe.

Series 3 Land Rover? A Defender would probably do too, and more civilised.

>  

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Keith Addison]

Hello Roger

Thanks for the reply.

>A combination...My F250 Diesel, Oil Heat, My father's F250, and some for
>the neighbor's house.

Four users then, averaging enough for three people each (who also use 
too much).

>I suppose the 500 Gallons is a winter number - maybe 300 gallons in the
>summer to support the lot of us.  I go through about 250 gallons a month
>myself (in the winter).  That's only 1 tank per week in the truck (26
>gal).

Um, 1 tank per week in the truck (26 gal) is about 104 gallons a 
month, not 250 gallons a month. Is the 104 gallons a month your 
summer rate? Why would you use more than twice as much in the winter? 
If that's what you're saying?

>Plus I have a few friends asking for any surplus I have. 
>Currently, I'm only acquiring about 100 gallons a month, which is more
>hassle than I imagined.  Between driving up to 30 minutes away and then
>trying to get the sludge from the good stuff, it doesn't seem worth it
>compared to over $5 a gal for diesel and heating oil is right behind at
>$4.69.

So it's 100 gallons a month, or less (sludge), not 300 or 500. I 
wonder how much you actually use. What do you do with the sludge?

If you're using 104 gallons a month, that's 1,248 gallons a year, 2.5 
times the national average, and you're covering 22,500 miles a year, 
about twice the national average.

If you're using 250 gallons a month, that's 3,000 gallons a year, six 
times the national average, and you're covering 54,000 miles a year, 
4.5 times the national average.

I don't think anyone pretends the national average is exactly energy 
efficient, let alone sustainable, or not anyone who's sane anyway.

You use either 4 times or 10 times as much fuel as we do.

Why do you drive so much? For how many of those 22,500 miles a year 
or 54,000 miles a year is your F250 actually carrying a load that 
justifies its existence? Do you drive alone or do you share? How many 
miles could you do just as well in a 1980s VW Golf that gets 50 mpg? 
How many could you do just as well without?

If WVO weren't cheaper than petro would your mileage be the same?

What might your mileage be if you couldn't get enough WVO and the gas 
price hit $10 and the methanol price went up too? Or with gas at $15, 
or $20?

And what's it got to do with me? :-)

Best

Keith


>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>  Keith Addison wrote:
>>>
>   I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and
>   I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant
>   within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell
>   and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
>   outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal.
>   Thanks,
>   Roger
>
   Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
  
>>>  This is the US Keith :)
>>>
>>
>>  Yes, Chip, I know. :-)
>>
>>  But it just doesn't wash.
>>
>>  I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I
>>  know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each
>>  way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an
>  > 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas
>>  used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.)
>>
>>  Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you
>>  guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc
>>  K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and
>>  capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're
>>  real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think
>>  Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of
>>  slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles
>>  have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your
>>  F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let
>>  alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what
>>  the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case,
>  > or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such
>>  data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise.
>>
>>  Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US,
>>  according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation:
>>  Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car 
>>- 2005: 541
>>  Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4
>>  http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html
>>
>>  That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So
>>  yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people.
>>
>>  I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He
>  > says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a
>>  laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though
>>  maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel?
>>
>>  Interesting nu

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Chip Mefford]

Keith Addison wrote:
>> Keith Addison wrote:
  I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and
  I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant
  within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell
  and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
  outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal.
  Thanks,
  Roger
>>>  Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
>> This is the US Keith :)
> 
> Yes, Chip, I know. :-)
> 
> But it just doesn't wash.

Heh, Yeah, I was just stirring the pot. Mostly anyway.

> 
> I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I 
> know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each 
> way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 
> 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas 
> used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.)
> 
> Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you 
> guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc 
> K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and 
> capable. 


Oh, how I know it!

Fellow up in my hometown, (that place that is 127miles from where
I work?) has a bunch of K-trucks. It's funny, because EVERYONE loves
them, everyone wants'em. But since their road-legal-ness is suspect,
and they don't haul down the Interstates at 80+mph they get
dismissed. In order to import them them to the US, they have to
be governed to max speed of 25mph. It's kinda silly all in all.
There are special classes of vehicles that some states allow
to be operated on state highways and road with a posted speed
limit of 45mph or less. the K-truck would fit this nicely. It's
just too radical an idea, for now, for the US.

I love tiny vehicles. Love them. The smallest car I ever had
was a Fiat 650. But as you know, there are much smaller cars
than that. When I lived in Germany in the mid-80s, for a while
I had a Citroen deux chevaux, which relative to some things, was
pretty big. I could use it on the Autobahn, legally. it was capable
of hitting 130kph. What I wanted was a Renault 4 Fourgonnette (box
van) like a buddy of mine had. a fellow I used to play darts with
had one of those bmw isetta 600s, the 'big' Isetta :)

As you probably know however, seems that a lot of Americans
greatly enjoy hammering down the road in 3+ton gvw SUVs
while jabbering on cellphones and slamming into one another.
Simply put, Yer old 660 mini wouldn't be safe here, not
in this part of the country, with it's traffic density, and
complete disregard for all road use courtesy.

I still have a saab sonett that I quit driving a few
years because I could not longer enjoy it. Got rid of my last
VW rabbit (the real rabbit, the G1 golf) at about the same
time, bought a '98 subaru legacy outback hoping to survive
the eventual altercation with a Ford Excursion or Chevy Tahoe.


> Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're 
> real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think 
> Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of 
> slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles 
> have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. 

Well, my father -who was part of the first occupation- spent his
formative years in Japan, and since he arrived there at the age of
18, and stayed for a while, fell deeply in love with the place and
the people. One of those sailors who 'went native'. Anyway, that's
staggeringly long story, the germane bit is that the last time he
was there, was about 20 years ago. His idea of a good time, was
to go down to the fish market at about 4am, and sit back across
from it, and wait, and watch. He just loved watching all the little
vehicles, and of course, -being a seafood biologist- and the market.
As he put it, there was no such thing as a vehicle so small
that there wasn't a smaller one that could pull up and park between
two of them. :)

Of course, he also bought his first VW beetle in 62, and loved small
cars. His last car before he stopped driving was an old diesel dasher, 
that got over 50mpg, and had over 360k miles on it.

I wonder if your
> F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let 
> alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what 
> the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, 
> or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such 
> data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise.

No to me. On the leading point, since I hardly use mine, it's almost
a moot point. On the overall point, since it's road legal, I can use
it, more or less safely. It's a 85 6.9 mechanical idi, not a 6.8. So
at least I can work on it. It's a good truck. But were things just
a little different, I'd gladly trade back down to my preferred truck;
a suzuki long-bed F-413 pickup. Can't get those 

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Steve Moran]

Ya just never know ;)
This is almost as intriguing a mystery as all those feet washing up in
canada.   

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Keith Addison
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:03 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA


>Maybe he's working with a group of guys to make it.  Maybe he owns a
>delivery truck.  Maybe he owns a company that has 12 trucks in its
>fleet.  Maybe he has a hole in his storage tank.

Maybe he'll tell us himself.

Keith


>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>Of Keith Addison
>Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:47 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
>
>
>>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>>   I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month
>and
>>>>   I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every
>restaurant
>>>>   within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that
>sell
>>>>   and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm
just
>>>>   outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an
>animal.
>>>>   Thanks,
>>>>   Roger
>>>
>>>   Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
>>
>>This is the US Keith :)
>
>Yes, Chip, I know. :-)
>
>But it just doesn't wash.



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Roger]

A combination...My F250 Diesel, Oil Heat, My father's F250, and some for 
the neighbor's house. 
I suppose the 500 Gallons is a winter number - maybe 300 gallons in the 
summer to support the lot of us.  I go through about 250 gallons a month 
myself (in the winter).  That's only 1 tank per week in the truck (26 
gal).  Plus I have a few friends asking for any surplus I have.  
Currently, I'm only acquiring about 100 gallons a month, which is more 
hassle than I imagined.  Between driving up to 30 minutes away and then 
trying to get the sludge from the good stuff, it doesn't seem worth it 
compared to over $5 a gal for diesel and heating oil is right behind at 
$4.69.




Keith Addison wrote:
>> Keith Addison wrote:
>> 
  I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and
  I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant
  within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell
  and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
  outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal.
  Thanks,
  Roger
 
>>>  Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
>>>   
>> This is the US Keith :)
>> 
>
> Yes, Chip, I know. :-)
>
> But it just doesn't wash.
>
> I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I 
> know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each 
> way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 
> 850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas 
> used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.)
>
> Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you 
> guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc 
> K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and 
> capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're 
> real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think 
> Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of 
> slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles 
> have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your 
> F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let 
> alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what 
> the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, 
> or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such 
> data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise.
>
> Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US, 
> according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation:
> Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car - 2005: 541
> Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4
> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html
>
> That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So 
> yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people.
>
> I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He 
> says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a 
> laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though 
> maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel?
>
> Interesting numbers at that infoplease page.
>
> Number of passenger cars registered
> 1960: 61,671,000
> 2005: 135,568,000
>
> Did the US get twice as big in the meantime? No:
>
> Vehicle-miles traveled - Passenger car
> 1960: 587,000,000
> 2005: 1,689,965,000
>
> It got three times as big! LOL!
>
> Sorry.
>
> 
>
>   
>> But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters.
>> 
>
> That's the problem eh? Ordinary people, the real ones, get hurt 
> first, and the toy people don't feel a thing.
>
> I suppose long-haul will go by train, or not at all, trucks will be 
> for local. Hm. The Japanese don't export the K-vehicles, but I think 
> you can get second-hand K-trucks in the US now. Maybe some of your 
> trucker friends might be interested in this:
>
>   
>> http://www.best-used-tractors.com/mini_truck.html
>> Used Japanese 4X4 K-class Mini Trucks, Micro Trucks - US and Canada
>>
>> "The Japanese have been making right hand drive light duty trucks 
>> for decades which Best Used Tractors can now import used in 
>> containers to the US, to Canada, and to many other countries around 
>> the globe."
>> 
>
> Bit of money to be made there, I think. Could even be trendy, sort of 
> an anti-Hummer.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>   
>> Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for
>> a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250,
>> that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles
>> a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where
>> I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute,
>> I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :)
>>
>> Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as
>> 

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Keith Addison]

>Maybe he's working with a group of guys to make it.  Maybe he owns a
>delivery truck.  Maybe he owns a company that has 12 trucks in its
>fleet.  Maybe he has a hole in his storage tank.

Maybe he'll tell us himself.

Keith


>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>Of Keith Addison
>Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:47 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA
>
>
>>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>>   I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month
>and
>>>>   I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every
>restaurant
>>>>   within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that
>sell
>>>>   and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
>>>>   outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an
>animal.
>>>>   Thanks,
>>>>   Roger
>>>
>>>   Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
>>
>>This is the US Keith :)
>
>Yes, Chip, I know. :-)
>
>But it just doesn't wash.



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Steve Moran]

Maybe he's working with a group of guys to make it.  Maybe he owns a
delivery truck.  Maybe he owns a company that has 12 trucks in its
fleet.  Maybe he has a hole in his storage tank.  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Keith Addison
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:47 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA


>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>  I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month
and
>>>  I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every
restaurant
>>>  within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that
sell
>>>  and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
>>>  outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an
animal.
>>>  Thanks,
>>>  Roger
>>
>>  Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
>
>This is the US Keith :)

Yes, Chip, I know. :-)

But it just doesn't wash.

I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I 
know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each 
way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 
850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas 
used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.)

Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you 
guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc 
K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and 
capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're 
real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think 
Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of 
slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles 
have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your 
F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let 
alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what 
the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, 
or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such 
data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise.

Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US, 
according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation:
Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car -
2005: 541
Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html

That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So 
yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people.

I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He 
says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a 
laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though 
maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel?

Interesting numbers at that infoplease page.

Number of passenger cars registered
1960: 61,671,000
2005: 135,568,000

Did the US get twice as big in the meantime? No:

Vehicle-miles traveled - Passenger car
1960: 587,000,000
2005: 1,689,965,000

It got three times as big! LOL!

Sorry.



>But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters.

That's the problem eh? Ordinary people, the real ones, get hurt 
first, and the toy people don't feel a thing.

I suppose long-haul will go by train, or not at all, trucks will be 
for local. Hm. The Japanese don't export the K-vehicles, but I think 
you can get second-hand K-trucks in the US now. Maybe some of your 
trucker friends might be interested in this:

>http://www.best-used-tractors.com/mini_truck.html
>Used Japanese 4X4 K-class Mini Trucks, Micro Trucks - US and Canada
>
>"The Japanese have been making right hand drive light duty trucks 
>for decades which Best Used Tractors can now import used in 
>containers to the US, to Canada, and to many other countries around 
>the globe."

Bit of money to be made there, I think. Could even be trendy, sort of 
an anti-Hummer.

Best

Keith


>Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for
>a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250,
>that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles
>a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where
>I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute,
>I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :)
>
>Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as
>far-fetched as one might -at first blush- think.
>
>Of the 80-some-odd folks that I work with, more than half of them
>commute more than 50 miles a day, some more than 75. A few
>well over 100.
>
>I personally drive

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Keith Addison]

>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>  I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and
>>>  I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant
>>>  within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell
>>>  and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
>>>  outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal.
>>>  Thanks,
>>>  Roger
>>
>>  Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.
>
>This is the US Keith :)

Yes, Chip, I know. :-)

But it just doesn't wash.

I also come from a big country, not that big, but big enough, so I 
know something about it. I quite often used to drive 1,000 miles each 
way for the weekend, or 400 each way for a different weekend. In an 
850cc Mini, foot flat all the way at 80 mph, and not very much gas 
used. (I'm not small, 6ft 2in.)

Japan's a big country too, in its way, narrow but long. Where you 
guys need a 6.8 litre F250 truck the Japanese use little 660cc 
K-trucks, for just about everything, very economical, tough and 
capable. Good 4x4 too, not easy to get stuck in a K-truck. They're 
real trucks, but miniaturised, not made-over cars. I don't think 
Japan would work very well without its K-trucks, I can see it sort of 
slowly grinding to a halt. There are K-cars too, all the K-vehicles 
have low taxes to encourage people to buy them. I wonder if your 
F250s accomplish that much more work than Japan's K-trucks do (let 
alone 10 times as much work, since they're 10 times as big), and what 
the real costs might be per unit of work accomplished in each case, 
or some such efficiency comparison. I've no idea where to find such 
data, if anywhere, but it might be a surprise.

Anyway, the cases you describe don't seem to be typical for the US, 
according to these stats, source U.S. Department of Transportation:
Average annual fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) - Passenger car - 2005: 541
Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) - Passenger car: 12.4
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004727.html

That's about what I thought, 12,000 miles a year, 500 gallons. So 
yes, Roger's 500 gallons a month should be enough for 12 people.

I don't know, but I don't think he's in the same situation as you. He 
says he's just outside Philadelphia, he said before he works for a 
laboratory surplus equipment company, in Philadelphia I guess, though 
maybe not. So why does he need so much fuel?

Interesting numbers at that infoplease page.

Number of passenger cars registered
1960: 61,671,000
2005: 135,568,000

Did the US get twice as big in the meantime? No:

Vehicle-miles traveled - Passenger car
1960: 587,000,000
2005: 1,689,965,000

It got three times as big! LOL!

Sorry.



>But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters.

That's the problem eh? Ordinary people, the real ones, get hurt 
first, and the toy people don't feel a thing.

I suppose long-haul will go by train, or not at all, trucks will be 
for local. Hm. The Japanese don't export the K-vehicles, but I think 
you can get second-hand K-trucks in the US now. Maybe some of your 
trucker friends might be interested in this:

>http://www.best-used-tractors.com/mini_truck.html
>Used Japanese 4X4 K-class Mini Trucks, Micro Trucks - US and Canada
>
>"The Japanese have been making right hand drive light duty trucks 
>for decades which Best Used Tractors can now import used in 
>containers to the US, to Canada, and to many other countries around 
>the globe."

Bit of money to be made there, I think. Could even be trendy, sort of 
an anti-Hummer.

Best

Keith


>Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for
>a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250,
>that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles
>a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where
>I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute,
>I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :)
>
>Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as
>far-fetched as one might -at first blush- think.
>
>Of the 80-some-odd folks that I work with, more than half of them
>commute more than 50 miles a day, some more than 75. A few
>well over 100.
>
>I personally drive just a bit over 70 miles a day on average.
>On the road, I see vehicles coming in from much farther out
>that are gigantic fuel burners. These are daily commuters,
>2.5 to 5ton class diesel trucks close to fully loaded with
>welders, etc. that probably log well over 200 miles a day,
>and I'm sure they don't get anything like 15-20 mpg.
>
>So, yeah, I can see how some folks, trades people esp, who
>would go through 500 gals a month.
>
>An interesting trend that I've been paying attention to
>over the years are the 3/4 to 1 ton short bed crew cab
>turbo diesel pickups, that are 'dressed' up, making
>them essentially SUVs that haul up and down from much
>futher out than i normally drive (which is already an
>insane amo

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Chip Mefford]

Keith Addison wrote:
>> I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and
>> I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant
>> within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell
>> and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
>> outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal.
>> Thanks,
>> Roger
> 
> Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.

This is the US Keith :)

Lemme see, 500 gal of svo, could yield 500 gals of bd, for
a 30 day month, that's ~17 gallons a day, in my F-250,
that get's 16-20mpg,if I drive it really gently, that's 300 miles
a day, but that's every day. Since I live 127 miles from where
I work, I could *almost* burn that much. However, I don't commute,
I only go home on the weekends, and I don't drive the truck :)

Some folks will boggle at that. But around here, it's not as
far-fetched as one might -at first blush- think.

Of the 80-some-odd folks that I work with, more than half of them
commute more than 50 miles a day, some more than 75. A few
well over 100.

I personally drive just a bit over 70 miles a day on average.
On the road, I see vehicles coming in from much farther out
that are gigantic fuel burners. These are daily commuters,
2.5 to 5ton class diesel trucks close to fully loaded with
welders, etc. that probably log well over 200 miles a day,
and I'm sure they don't get anything like 15-20 mpg.

So, yeah, I can see how some folks, trades people esp, who
would go through 500 gals a month.

An interesting trend that I've been paying attention to
over the years are the 3/4 to 1 ton short bed crew cab
turbo diesel pickups, that are 'dressed' up, making
them essentially SUVs that haul up and down from much
futher out than i normally drive (which is already an
insane amount) who have no regard for anything resembling
speed limits. As the prices have climbed over the last
year, I've started seeing more and more of them in used
car lots, but there are plenty of them still on the road.
And they haven't even slowed down.

So, though diesel has gone up nearly 2x in a year, seems
these folks are just fine with that. Lot of complaining,
but very little change in behavior.

I also know, as in know personally, over the road truck
operators, who have been completely buried. done in
by this fuel increase. Sitting home, going through their
savings, hoping for a reversal of fortune, and looking
for different work. Some completely wiped out already.

But still I see no real changes, just individual disasters.

> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


-- 
Chip Mefford

Before Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
After Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
-
Public Key
http://www.well.com/user/cpm

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Keith Addison]

>I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and
>I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant
>within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell
>and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just
>outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal.
>Thanks,
>Roger

Why do you need so much oil? That should be enough for 12 people.

Best

Keith

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Chip Mefford]

Roger wrote:
> I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and 
> I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant 
> within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell 
> and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just 
> outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. 
> Thanks,
> Roger

You could check with this guy

http://www.smarterfuel.com/sales.html

He's up near Reading I think.

He likes to deal quantity. 1000+ gallons.

> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


-- 
Chip Mefford

Before Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
After Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
-
Public Key
http://www.well.com/user/cpm

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO in PA, USA

[Roger]

I'm having a hard time finding WVO.  I need 500 Gallons per month and 
I'm tired of driving around and fighting for oil at every restaurant 
within 10 miles.  I've found other companies in other states that sell 
and deliver larger quantities but nothing close to home.  I'm just 
outside of Philadelphia - has anyone heard or run into such an animal. 
Thanks,
Roger



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted

[Thomas Kelly]

Jason,
 Sorry for the delayed response, but I was in the midst of 
"experimenting" with my own "sludge" oil.
  I settle my WVO before pouring the clear dry portion into 55 gal 
storage drums. I use the oil from the top 3/4 of the drums for processing 
into BD. After three years I decided to empty the tanks one-by-one. I 
accumulated a total of almost 100gal (~380L) of thick, gooey sludge from the 
bottoms of 8 tanks. The sludge contained water and titrated significantly 
higher than the oil above it.
 I had experimented with treating WVO with the glycerin "cocktail" from 
BD production and decided to try it with the "sludge" oil.  Treated with the 
glycerin mix, oil that had resembled butterscotch pudding at 60F (~15C), was 
liquid at the same temp. It had much less water and titrated lower (3.5 - 
3.7ml of  0.1%KOH/L  lowered to
 ~ 2.5). A test batch of the "pudding" oil  >  incomplete reaction with 
much soap. I have successfully processed three batches of the "treated" 
sludge and am running the BD as "summer fuel" in my car and my wife's car. 
The BD clouds a bit at 55F (~12C), but flows fine. No trouble starting even 
on some cool mornings (~ 40F/~5C). The BD produced can be used as summer 
fuel for cars or as fuel for my heating system in the cold weather.

  The original post had been sent to a couple of veg oil groups, but I 
thought biodiesel homebrewers might benefit from knowing that they don't 
have to dispose of their "bottom of the barrel" veg oil.

  There was some discussion of treating WVO with the glyc. prod earlier 
in the year.
Search archives "Treating WVO with Glycerin".
   I'd be happy to go over the process I follow if anyone's interested. 
With recent discussions about problems acquiring WVO it might be good to be 
able to use what we previously would have disposed of (???) or turned down.

 
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Jason Mier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted


>
> try this. its written in terms of glycerine, but i think junk grease and 
> fryer slime would work as well.
>
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn
>
> you could also make a huge pile of these "logs" and dump them a handful at 
> a time into the compost, also, further down-page is a topic i particularly 
> like; anaerobic digestion- making NatGas and a liquid fertilizer for your 
> own personal use.
>
> this information is also in the JtF library:
>
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/MethaneDigesters/MDToC.html#ToC
>
> although it has been suggested that you might want to compost the sludge 
> product before using it as a fertilizer.
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:00:26 -0400
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; 
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted
>>
>> What are you doing with your WVO sludge? I know this topics been 
>> discussed
>> in the past but, it seems only to a limited degree. I have two needs - 
>> the
>> first is long term - how am I going to handle the sludge from my regular
>> use? I use WVO in my car and in my boiler.
>>
>> The second concern is more immediate...I have a fair amount of WVO sludge
>> (probably around 100 gallons) and I need to find a eco-friendly solution 
>> for
>> disposing of it. I think 100 gallons is more than my compost pile can
>> handle. Furthermore, some of the oil that I had was less than ideal 
>> quality
>> so the sludge really stinks. I also think that I could dispose of it one
>> cubie at a time in my trash pickup but, that is not eco-friendly at all.
>>
>> One thing is certain - I have to be more selective about the restaurants
>> that I get my oil from.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Ken
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080514/dbe5eecd/attachment.html
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
> _
> Stay in to

Re: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted

[Jason Mier]

try this. its written in terms of glycerine, but i think junk grease and fryer 
slime would work as well.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn

you could also make a huge pile of these "logs" and dump them a handful at a 
time into the compost, also, further down-page is a topic i particularly like; 
anaerobic digestion- making NatGas and a liquid fertilizer for your own 
personal use. 

this information is also in the JtF library: 

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/MethaneDigesters/MDToC.html#ToC

although it has been suggested that you might want to compost the sludge 
product before using it as a fertilizer.


> Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:00:26 -0400
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted
>
> What are you doing with your WVO sludge? I know this topics been discussed
> in the past but, it seems only to a limited degree. I have two needs - the
> first is long term - how am I going to handle the sludge from my regular
> use? I use WVO in my car and in my boiler.
>
> The second concern is more immediate...I have a fair amount of WVO sludge
> (probably around 100 gallons) and I need to find a eco-friendly solution for
> disposing of it. I think 100 gallons is more than my compost pile can
> handle. Furthermore, some of the oil that I had was less than ideal quality
> so the sludge really stinks. I also think that I could dispose of it one
> cubie at a time in my trash pickup but, that is not eco-friendly at all.
>
> One thing is certain - I have to be more selective about the restaurants
> that I get my oil from.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ken
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080514/dbe5eecd/attachment.html
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

_
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted

[Ken Dunn]

What are you doing with your WVO sludge?  I know this topics been discussed
in the past but, it seems only to a limited degree.  I have two needs - the
first is long term - how am I going to handle the sludge from my regular
use?  I use WVO in my car and in my boiler.

The second concern is more immediate...I have a fair amount of WVO sludge
(probably around 100 gallons) and I need to find a eco-friendly solution for
disposing of it.  I think 100 gallons is more than my compost pile can
handle.  Furthermore, some of the oil that I had was less than ideal quality
so the sludge really stinks.  I also think that I could dispose of it one
cubie at a time in my trash pickup but, that is not eco-friendly at all.

One thing is certain - I have to be more selective about the restaurants
that I get my oil from.

Thanks in advance,
Ken
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080514/dbe5eecd/attachment.html 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hi Olivier,
they just top it off every day, you hit the nail rigth on!
When i inquiered once at a greesy spoon chain in Quebec,the Manager told 
me,there is no wvoil,they have apparantly so much turnover that they dont need 
to change any oil! since this time i make a big detour when ever i see a " 
Labelle Province Restaurant"
Fritz
  - Original Message - 
  From: Olivier Morf 
  To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?


  Hi Keith,

  Regarding your last paragraph, I can confirm that here there is no or very
  little WVO. Either they just keep using it and top it off every day or the
  cooks are taking it home. I visited an instant noodle factory and there's no
  WVO, they keep adding unless it really becomes really rancid. I think it is
  not only a question of choice, it is also a question of education. They just
  don't know always that it is not good for health. As long as it tastes ok
  they keep using it.

  An other example; they prefer "white" rise. Brown rise does not looks clean
  to them. Although here there is an other more practical reason. You need to
  cook brown rise longer thus more energy. But if you ask an urban person,
  they think the rise as not been cleaned. They don't know that there's good
  stuff for human as well in the bran. They use it as animal feeding.

  Olivier


  > From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  > Reply-To: 
  > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 00:29:07 +0900
  > To: 
  > Subject: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?
  > 
  > The price of cooking oil went up.
  > 
  > The supply of WVO from the restaurant we usually get it from went
  > right down, from more than enough to much less than enough (though we
  > also have other sources, so no big problem).
  > 
  > The FFA content went up, doubling from a titration of 0.8 - 1.2 ml
  > 0.1% NaOH solution to 2.0 - 2.35 ml. Also not a problem.
  > 
  > So it seems they keep costs stable by using the oil longer. That's
  > probably a common practice. This is quite a good restaurant (you can
  > tell from the previously low titration levels), not very good
  > restaurants will probably keep it going even longer.
  > 
  > Again, probably not a big problem for most, all indications are that
  > there's still really a lot of WVO that goes unaccounted for in most
  > of the industrialised countries, though for a couple of years now
  > backyard brewers have been telling of increasing competition for
  > local supplies.
  > 
  > In poorer countries though, from what I've seen elsewhere and from
  > what I can gather, there might not be much to spare for diesel motors
  > - people just keep using their oil until it's all used up. Not very
  > good for them, but they might not have much choice.
  > 
  > Best
  > 
  > Keith
  > 
  > 
  > ___
  > Biofuel mailing list
  > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
  > 
  > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  > 
  > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
messages):
  > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  ___
  Biofuel mailing list
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080313/6b684ecb/attachment.html 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?

[Olivier Morf]

Hi Keith,

Regarding your last paragraph, I can confirm that here there is no or very
little WVO. Either they just keep using it and top it off every day or the
cooks are taking it home. I visited an instant noodle factory and there's no
WVO, they keep adding unless it really becomes really rancid. I think it is
not only a question of choice, it is also a question of education. They just
don't know always that it is not good for health. As long as it tastes ok
they keep using it.

An other example; they prefer "white" rise. Brown rise does not looks clean
to them. Although here there is an other more practical reason. You need to
cook brown rise longer thus more energy. But if you ask an urban person,
they think the rise as not been cleaned. They don't know that there's good
stuff for human as well in the bran. They use it as animal feeding.

Olivier


> From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 00:29:07 +0900
> To: 
> Subject: [Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?
> 
> The price of cooking oil went up.
> 
> The supply of WVO from the restaurant we usually get it from went
> right down, from more than enough to much less than enough (though we
> also have other sources, so no big problem).
> 
> The FFA content went up, doubling from a titration of 0.8 - 1.2 ml
> 0.1% NaOH solution to 2.0 - 2.35 ml. Also not a problem.
> 
> So it seems they keep costs stable by using the oil longer. That's
> probably a common practice. This is quite a good restaurant (you can
> tell from the previously low titration levels), not very good
> restaurants will probably keep it going even longer.
> 
> Again, probably not a big problem for most, all indications are that
> there's still really a lot of WVO that goes unaccounted for in most
> of the industrialised countries, though for a couple of years now
> backyard brewers have been telling of increasing competition for
> local supplies.
> 
> In poorer countries though, from what I've seen elsewhere and from
> what I can gather, there might not be much to spare for diesel motors
> - people just keep using their oil until it's all used up. Not very
> good for them, but they might not have much choice.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO supplies on the wane?

[Keith Addison]

The price of cooking oil went up.

The supply of WVO from the restaurant we usually get it from went 
right down, from more than enough to much less than enough (though we 
also have other sources, so no big problem).

The FFA content went up, doubling from a titration of 0.8 - 1.2 ml 
0.1% NaOH solution to 2.0 - 2.35 ml. Also not a problem.

So it seems they keep costs stable by using the oil longer. That's 
probably a common practice. This is quite a good restaurant (you can 
tell from the previously low titration levels), not very good 
restaurants will probably keep it going even longer.

Again, probably not a big problem for most, all indications are that 
there's still really a lot of WVO that goes unaccounted for in most 
of the industrialised countries, though for a couple of years now 
backyard brewers have been telling of increasing competition for 
local supplies.

In poorer countries though, from what I've seen elsewhere and from 
what I can gather, there might not be much to spare for diesel motors 
- people just keep using their oil until it's all used up. Not very 
good for them, but they might not have much choice.

Best

Keith


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL

[keith]

Hi Chandan, Pagandai and all

>Dear Pannirselvam,
>
>Thanks for the detailed response.  I gather that there is good opportunity
>to add to the experimentally established results on castor based biodiesel
>and the blends that might work well.  I'm right now exploring a tie-up with
>one of the govt research labs and an agricultural university here in India
>to set up a small research project.  Your inputs are very helpful for me to
>determine how to set the scope of the project.There is a lot of hard selling
>on jatropha going on around here.  My purpose is to match the results (FUD?)
>available on jatropha based agrofuel number by number with results on castor
>based fuel.

Interesting Chandan, good for you, good luck!

The one problem with castor oil is the high viscosity, and with castor oil
biodiesel as well. There's quite a lot about it in previous discussions,
in the archives.

Castor oil is not like other oils, it has some unique properties, quite a
lot about that too, worth having a look.

Blending straight castor oil and ethanol is an interesting prospect,
perhaps starting with the 9% addition of 95% ethanol the ACREVO report
recommends - much improved combustion, and lower viscosity too. From there
on up to the 20% castor oil and 80% wet ethanol blend David Blume reports.

That should be very nice for diesel motors, they'd probably last forever.

Nice for farmers too, castorbean is generally a better option than
jatropha. You can fit it into a cropping system for instance, and it seems
to grow just about anywhere.

>I posted a message last Sunday on the local scenario here regarding the new
>small car Tata Nano, but not sure if it got through to the list.

Yes, it's here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71687.html

"Forgot" the pedestrians, aarghh! LOL!

All best

Keith



>Chandan
>
>
>Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote:
>>  Dear Chandan  and  all the list member
>>
>>Even though I am in Brazil ,which  export the meat very large , I
>> actualy  live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I
>> also india   from  south India as you pointed out  , Today  the Festival
>> Pongal not only  in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia,  ,
>> as  Cattle the animal are well  treated  as the make  sustainable living
>> possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this  old , we may think
>> of  ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals  all mixed like what
>> happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and
>> approach are  always  rural ecological  and sustainable  bio systems
sotaht
>> several unemployed  people can make biofuel  from this mega city. Alcohol
>> stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true
>> `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city
>>
>>
>>  Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year
>> of  study  to  sue ethanol in compression engine is   based on the two
>> hypothesis as you pointed out   : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT  BD
>> (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel)  and the co solvent effect  , where as  the
>> amount of  BD need not to be very high compared  to the  micro emulsion
>> method , as this  need more amount of BD and equipment too for making
>> emulsion with  an energy intensive process.
>>
>>   We came to this new  useful  biofuel product  formula not only by
>> hypothesis , but using  system engineering methods  We  do look for
>> simulated experiments results   by google  search to validate our
hypothesis
>> and models .As Keith has pointed out  some German group who  also work
with
>> vegetable oil have  also reported this blend  as the one work too , yet
not
>> much details .
>>
>>  Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend  , but we are not able to
>> go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish  to have fresh look on
>> what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the
>> successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in
>> Brazil.  The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made  patent  on BD making diretly
from
>> Castor seeds and  make viable the process by coproducts values , so that
>> Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel  Producer of the world ( See who will be
>> the world  big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our
>> recent wiki 
(www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com
>> )
>>
>>To be very clear to ver question  , we can say that  not that our
work is
>> hypothesis , but an system model , little proved   yet we need much proven
>> practical results, as we have  very little  evidence and  I am very
sorry to
>> inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are  on the
>> half  way.
>>
>> Our work is indeed  very limited to the  time and money as  an  all
Academic
>> University based sysem study,  as Keith  always refer it to be more 
limited
>> , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay  in the halfway..R

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL

[Chandan Haldar]

Dear Pannirselvam,

Thanks for the detailed response.  I gather that there is good opportunity
to add to the experimentally established results on castor based biodiesel
and the blends that might work well.  I'm right now exploring a tie-up with
one of the govt research labs and an agricultural university here in India
to set up a small research project.  Your inputs are very helpful for me to
determine how to set the scope of the project.There is a lot of hard selling
on jatropha going on around here.  My purpose is to match the results (FUD?)
available on jatropha based agrofuel number by number with results on castor
based fuel.

I posted a message last Sunday on the local scenario here regarding the new
small car Tata Nano, but not sure if it got through to the list.

Chandan


Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote:
>  Dear Chandan  and  all the list member
> 
>Even though I am in Brazil ,which  export the meat very large , I
> actualy  live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I
> also india   from  south India as you pointed out  , Today  the Festival
> Pongal not only  in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia,  ,
> as  Cattle the animal are well  treated  as the make  sustainable living
> possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this  old , we may think
> of  ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals  all mixed like what
> happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and
> approach are  always  rural ecological  and sustainable  bio systems sotaht
> several unemployed  people can make biofuel  from this mega city. Alcohol
> stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true
> `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city
> 
> 
>  Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year
> of  study  to  sue ethanol in compression engine is   based on the two
> hypothesis as you pointed out   : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT  BD
> (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel)  and the co solvent effect  , where as  the
> amount of  BD need not to be very high compared  to the  micro emulsion
> method , as this  need more amount of BD and equipment too for making
> emulsion with  an energy intensive process.
> 
>   We came to this new  useful  biofuel product  formula not only by
> hypothesis , but using  system engineering methods  We  do look for
> simulated experiments results   by google  search to validate our hypothesis
> and models .As Keith has pointed out  some German group who  also work with
> vegetable oil have  also reported this blend  as the one work too , yet not
> much details .
> 
>  Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend  , but we are not able to
> go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish  to have fresh look on
> what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the
> successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in
> Brazil.  The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made  patent  on BD making diretly from
> Castor seeds and  make viable the process by coproducts values , so that
> Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel  Producer of the world ( See who will be
> the world  big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our
> recent wiki  (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com
> )
> 
>To be very clear to ver question  , we can say that  not that our work is
> hypothesis , but an system model , little proved   yet we need much proven
> practical results, as we have  very little  evidence and  I am very sorry to
> inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are  on the
> half  way.
> 
> Our work is indeed  very limited to the  time and money as  an  all Academic
> University based sysem study,  as Keith  always refer it to be more  limited
> , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay  in the halfway..Rarely
> good fund is made  as we get good results, as fund is over the  good results
> cant be  turned into more useful and  we wish to go further.
> 
>  There are  two known  method or way  to make rural energy  , use  VO , or
> BD , but for small system project   we can think of one  more way the hybrid
> one the biofuel blend  .In  this new approach   we can use BD very less as
> it is also as  an good co solvent additives and surfactant , thus we can
> have  less problems with adoption of motor with this new biofuel blend
> compared to VO and as this  need less energy,  as BD making  is not simple ,
> but a complex one to be done in village level   .The big compnay can make
> BD,the small farmer can thus can  make his own   localy made biofuel blend ,
> to aviod the economic exploition of the big oil companies .Both the public
> and private oil company want to exploit the smal farmer buying the oil very
> cheap and selling the  fuel very high .Thus sustainable food will not be
> possible with is present system ,as well documented  by Keith in recent post
> here in our list .
> 
> More

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL

[Pagandai Pannirselvam]

 Dear Chandan  and  all the list member

   Even though I am in Brazil ,which  export the meat very large , I
actualy  live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I
also india   from  south India as you pointed out  , Today  the Festival
Pongal not only  in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia,  ,
as  Cattle the animal are well  treated  as the make  sustainable living
possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this  old , we may think
of  ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals  all mixed like what
happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and
approach are  always  rural ecological  and sustainable  bio systems sotaht
several unemployed  people can make biofuel  from this mega city. Alcohol
stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true
`Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city


 Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year
of  study  to  sue ethanol in compression engine is   based on the two
hypothesis as you pointed out   : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT  BD
(alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel)  and the co solvent effect  , where as  the
amount of  BD need not to be very high compared  to the  micro emulsion
method , as this  need more amount of BD and equipment too for making
emulsion with  an energy intensive process.

  We came to this new  useful  biofuel product  formula not only by
hypothesis , but using  system engineering methods  We  do look for
simulated experiments results   by google  search to validate our hypothesis
and models .As Keith has pointed out  some German group who  also work with
vegetable oil have  also reported this blend  as the one work too , yet not
much details .

 Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend  , but we are not able to
go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish  to have fresh look on
what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the
successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in
Brazil.  The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made  patent  on BD making diretly from
Castor seeds and  make viable the process by coproducts values , so that
Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel  Producer of the world ( See who will be
the world  big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our
recent wiki  (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com
)

   To be very clear to ver question  , we can say that  not that our work is
hypothesis , but an system model , little proved   yet we need much proven
practical results, as we have  very little  evidence and  I am very sorry to
inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are  on the
half  way.

Our work is indeed  very limited to the  time and money as  an  all Academic
University based sysem study,  as Keith  always refer it to be more  limited
, but we are unable to go till the end , but stay  in the halfway..Rarely
good fund is made  as we get good results, as fund is over the  good results
cant be  turned into more useful and  we wish to go further.

 There are  two known  method or way  to make rural energy  , use  VO , or
BD , but for small system project   we can think of one  more way the hybrid
one the biofuel blend  .In  this new approach   we can use BD very less as
it is also as  an good co solvent additives and surfactant , thus we can
have  less problems with adoption of motor with this new biofuel blend
compared to VO and as this  need less energy,  as BD making  is not simple ,
but a complex one to be done in village level   .The big compnay can make
BD,the small farmer can thus can  make his own   localy made biofuel blend ,
to aviod the economic exploition of the big oil companies .Both the public
and private oil company want to exploit the smal farmer buying the oil very
cheap and selling the  fuel very high .Thus sustainable food will not be
possible with is present system ,as well documented  by Keith in recent post
here in our list .

More over  vegetable oil  use can be  economic problem as the price are
expensive..The use of  ethanol and BD extraction vegetable seed Principal
the castor and cashew nut  oil as well as the biol oil can be pratical
method tommake biofuel .However  in our system design  approach  we are
limited to approach . Surely who uses the system need to do the home work
experimenting the method.


Thus practical  work alone without undersatanding what one do  , can be good
for big biofuel as  they wish to sell the products.

   Several  public and private  oil company have their patent related with
BD as additives.I am sure som of our list members also knows , do  Phd work
.They will not make this open as  they do not care for  small systems and
also small farmer.

 Our system analysis group wish  one understand the system , the use it ,
not the block box ,practical ready made things. thus our approach
compliments several hand made , self made biofuel project 

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators or BD or Blend

[Chandan Haldar]

Pannirselvam,

Happy New Year to you from India.  Good to see your mail after
a long time, but I'm quite confused by it.

I thought Keith only reported what YOU wrote earlier on 9/25/2006
(regarding mixing ~20% BD and 5-10% ethanol into (fresh/used) VO
to reduce viscosity).

Could you please specifically clarify if you or your associates
have actually made this kind of mixture work or if you have seen
this being done or if you are making a hypothesis that needs
experimental verification?

Thanks and regards.

Chandan


Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote:
> 
> Based on what Keith has reported recently,  castor oil  20 % can be used to
> 80 % ethanol hydrated ,I am sure  again a  significant amount of  ethanol
> can be replaced  using SVO  with  viscosity as the limit,thus there will not
> be no need for  BD in rural areas to run generator.
> 
> Milled Castor beans can be used  extract ethanol from water  , then pressed
> ,  mixed with the SVO , so taht the engine can run  with out engine
> modification and also without the expensive BD .
> 
>  Yours truely
> 
> Pagandai V pannirselvam
> 
> 
> 2008/1/7, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Hello Tom
>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
 The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio
>> diesel  can
 make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5
 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of
>> used
 vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with
 Conventional deisel.
 Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10
 percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for
 motor maintainence in rural areas.
>> He says "with less problem", I'm not sure if that means "without problem"
>> but it might do.


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators or BD or Blend

[Pagandai Pannirselvam]

   Happy new year for all the list members

 I am Pagandai  Pannirselvam  from Brazil.

   Very glad  that after some 2 years of my post about blended biofuel , we
have now come agian to make the debate. When I wrote  about hydrated ethanol
is E 96  azeotropic mixture as correctly pointed out by Keith.

Recently I had made english translation of Brazilian practical experience
in the page below  which do not bring some practical experience  of the use
of fuel blend , instead of BD , in the  Ecological system design wiki

http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/page/Ecological++Biofuel+%3ABrazilian+Experience




The following is the text of Sylmar, CATI, SP Brasil

Adopted resume of the translated text from Sylmar sited origional work in
http://www.cati.sp.gov.br/_Cati2007/_produtos/SementesMudas/biodiesel.php


>From May 2003 until the second half of 2005, all tractors of Core Production
of Seeds of Aguas de Santa Bárbara, CATI,SP ,BR with the jet engines direct
or indirect, one of the unit "Ataliba Leonel" (MF235 said previously ) came
to be moved with a mixture of vegetable oil (30%) more diesel oil (65%) and
solvent (5% of petrol common). This mixture, called a biofuel, has very
close viscosity of the oil diesel oil. A Mercedes-Benz truck, model 1313,
year 1978, was also tested, running 6,000 kilometers with a mixture biofuel.


The summary of the final results of these evaluations is transcribed below:
Tractor / Truck

* Manufacturing Year /Duration Test /Consumption average /Problems
identified *

Ford 5610 (ID) 1986 /1,000 hours 4.2 liters / hour no
MF 65x (ID) 1972 /500 hours 3.5 liters / hour no
MF 50x (II) 1972 /300 hours 2.5 liters / hour no
CBT 2105 (ID) 1978 250 hours 8.7 liters / hour no
MF 235 (II) 1978 1,000 hours 2.5 liters / hour no
Mercedes-Benz 1313 (ID) 1978 6,000 km 3.5 km / liter none

Final considerations:

- The use of 100% vegetable oil as a fuel in place of diesel oil, it is
possible to run , but also depends on appropriate technology of jet engines
and systems to prevent potential problems caused, mainly, by non-combustion
total of such oils because of high viscosity of them.

The biofuel mixture consisting of 30% of vegetable oil + 65% of diesel oil
from oil + 5% of gasoline with alcohol anhydrous (75% + 25%), used to
replace the diesel oil from oil, appears to be a very interesting option for
both direct injection engines and indirect, allowing the reduction of
dependence on non-renewable fossil fuel and opening a significant market for
the production of oil. This option must be considered and evaluated
scientifically to obtain safe and definitive conclusions. The mixture
biofuel cited in the period and the conditions in which it was tested, not
shown any of the inconveniences caused by the total replacement of diesel
oil by oil vegetable oils, in all cases evaluated. We must also highlight
that for the tractor Ford 5610, strong indications of significant reduction
of consumption were obtained during the period, which used the mixture.

- Because of the possibility of: a) production of various oilseeds in all
regions of Brazil, including in the semi-arid regions, b) obtaining and
extraction of vegetable oils by pressing the cold and filtering directly by
the severity level of rural property c) use of technology already available
in European countries that allows the direct use of vegetable oils as fuel;
feel the urgent need for that in our country, also devotes special attention
to the alternative use of renewable fuel, in addition to the others who
already are being used and encouraged, such as alcohol and biodiesel.

For more information please contact and Regional Office of Andradina e
SYLMAR , CATI ,SP, BR tel: 55 (18) 3722-3040.





The amount  much  water can be  good for   IC  motor , however the fuel
efficiency  willl be low.

The role of Biodisel is more as an additive as same as castor oil use with
hydrated ethanol , as solubility and miscibility of the only oil with
ethanoo is castor oil, also having good lubricant  additive properties .

There is problems with  blending of SVO and ethanol , as they do not mix
well.several  years experince to find cheap additive based on perfural ,
isoamyl alcohol can solve the problems  in small quantity , but are found to
be expansivos.

The max amountof SVO found  to be  maxium 50  porcents petro deiesel  , ,
other is there is problem of  viscosity.The other need to be  some fuel
diluente  petro diesel , kerosene, gasoline , alcohol and now also BD too.
   As mentioned in the following Brazilian experience and reports
   Gasoline  poved to be better than alcohol to be miixed with with SVO  as
75 porcent gasoline and 25 porcent ethanol

 However the use of BD  can make possible the  use of hyrated alcohol with
hiher level as it is surfactant  with hydrophilic and  hydrophoic  oil water
phase   miscibility , alcohol as co solvents.But as small amount as pointed

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Pagandai Pannirselvam]

 Helo  Thomas


We are experimenting to use  cashew nut shell liquid and spent  SVO as
additives  to alcohol for gasoline engien .if we want we can suply from
Brasil  to you

With regards
pannirselvam

2008/1/7, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Keith,
>  Thanks.
>  Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel
> generator, but may help me in my "quest" to run a gasoline car, legally,
> on
> homebrewed ethanol.
>  If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature
> the
> ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a
> permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it.
>
>  I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to
> digest
> it all myself.
> Best to You,
>  Tom
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
>
>
> Hello Tom
>
> >Hello All,
> >On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
> >>The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio
> diesel  can
> >>make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5
> >>porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of
> used
> >>vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with
> >>Conventional deisel.
> >>Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10
> >>percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for
> >>motor maintainence in rural areas.
>
> He says "with less problem", I'm not sure if that means "without problem"
> but it might do.
>
> > I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to
> generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is
> considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I
> suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing
> it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per
> hour (120+ gal/week).
> >   1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested
> by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
>
> No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW.
>
> >   2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
> > In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only
> that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human
> consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would
> not have to be denatured
>
> The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%,
> 190-proof (95%) should be doable.
>
> This is from David Blume's excellent book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas!":
>
> "There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate
> from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline,
> alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending
> on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled
> additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as "Dry Gas," is
> nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with
> the gasoline.
>
> "In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm
> climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with
> gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a
> General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the
> physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the
> paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F
> [20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and
> not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline
> down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who
> live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of
> producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline.
> And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use
> 200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth
> between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel
> vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel."
>
> Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95%
> would do just as well.
>
> David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of
> petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most 

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[keith]

Hi Tom

>Keith,
> Thanks.
> Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel
>generator, but may help me in my "quest" to run a gasoline car, legally, on
>homebrewed ethanol.

Our TownAce has an Elsbett system and can run on petro-diesel, biodiesel
or SVO, pure or in any mix (though we never use petro-diesel). It would be
an interesting option to add 190-proof ethanol (or less) at up to 50% of
the blend, or even 80% maybe. Real multi-fuel vehicle.

Maybe I'll have the chance to explore it a bit further soon, buy a few
cans of 95% ethanol and do some tests. Or something.

> If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the
>ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a
>permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it.

Do a one-litre batch first?

> I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest
>it all myself.

:-) Just a bunch of questions really, sounds good, but it'd be nice if
somebody did have real on-the-ground experience of it.

I agree with Fritz though, it's a risk, no guarantees, not much you could
recommend to someone wanting a reliable solution.

>Best to You,

And to you Tom

Keith


> Tom
>- Original Message -
>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
>
>
>Hello Tom
>
>>Hello All,
>>On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>>>The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel  can
>>>make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5
>>>porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used
>>>vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with
>>>Conventional deisel.
>>>Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10
>>>percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for
>>>motor maintainence in rural areas.
>
>He says "with less problem", I'm not sure if that means "without problem"
>but it might do.
>
>> I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to
>generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is
>considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I
>suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing
>it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per
>hour (120+ gal/week).
>>   1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested
>by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
>
>No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW.
>
>>   2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
>> In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only
>that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human
>consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would
>not have to be denatured
>
>The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%,
>190-proof (95%) should be doable.
>
>This is from David Blume's excellent book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas!":
>
>"There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate
>from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline,
>alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending
>on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled
>additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as "Dry Gas," is
>nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with
>the gasoline.
>
>"In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm
>climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with
>gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a
>General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the
>physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the
>paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F
>[20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and
>not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline
>down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who
>live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of
>producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline.
>And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use
>200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth
>between alcohol and gasoline in a n

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Thomas Kelly]

Keith,
 Thanks.
 Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel 
generator, but may help me in my "quest" to run a gasoline car, legally, on 
homebrewed ethanol.
 If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the 
ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a 
permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it.

 I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest 
it all myself.
Best to You,
 Tom
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators


Hello Tom

>Hello All,
>On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>>The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel  can
>>make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5
>>porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used
>>vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with
>>Conventional deisel.
>>Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10
>>percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for
>>motor maintainence in rural areas.

He says "with less problem", I'm not sure if that means "without problem"
but it might do.

> I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to
generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is
considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I
suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing
it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per
hour (120+ gal/week).
>   1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested
by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?

No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW.

>   2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
> In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only
that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human
consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would
not have to be denatured

The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%,
190-proof (95%) should be doable.

This is from David Blume's excellent book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas!":

"There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate
from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline,
alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending
on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled
additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as "Dry Gas," is
nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with
the gasoline.

"In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm
climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with
gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a
General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the
physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the
paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F
[20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and
not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline
down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who
live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of
producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline.
And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use
200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth
between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel
vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel."

Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95%
would do just as well.

David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of
petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50%
ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they
only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the
time and 50-50 alcohol and biodiesel should be fine. He thinks a minimum
of 20% biodiesel and 80% alcohol would also be fine, but says it needs
testing (with a dynamometer and a knock-meter).

"What % water would be tolerated?" Water in the fuel can be a Good Thing,
it improves combustion efficiency and reduces emissions - just as long as
it stays in the fuel and doesn't separate.

This EPA paper for instance, "Bibliography of Water-Fuel Emulsions
Studies", lists 23 studies, all with diesels: "Following is a 

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[keith]

Hello Tom

>Hello All,
>On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>>The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel  can
>>make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5
>>porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used
>>vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with
>>Conventional deisel.
>>Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10
>>percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for
>>motor maintainence in rural areas.

He says "with less problem", I'm not sure if that means "without problem"
but it might do.

> I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to
generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is
considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I
suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing
it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per
hour (120+ gal/week).
>   1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested
by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?

No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW.

>   2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
> In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only
that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human
consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would
not have to be denatured

The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%,
190-proof (95%) should be doable.

This is from David Blume's excellent book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas!":

"There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate
from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline,
alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending
on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled
additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as "Dry Gas," is
nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with
the gasoline.

"In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm
climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with
gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a
General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the
physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the
paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F
[20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and
not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline
down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who
live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of
producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline.
And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use
200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth
between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel
vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel."

Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95%
would do just as well.

David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of
petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50%
ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they
only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the
time and 50-50 alcohol and biodiesel should be fine. He thinks a minimum
of 20% biodiesel and 80% alcohol would also be fine, but says it needs
testing (with a dynamometer and a knock-meter).

"What % water would be tolerated?" Water in the fuel can be a Good Thing,
it improves combustion efficiency and reduces emissions - just as long as
it stays in the fuel and doesn't separate.

This EPA paper for instance, "Bibliography of Water-Fuel Emulsions
Studies", lists 23 studies, all with diesels: "Following is a list of
studies that are being considered for inclusion in work being done by EPA
to assess the effects of water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of
nitrogen (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM)."
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf

David Blume also reports on the use in Brazil and other countries of
blends of 20% castor oil and 80% wet ethanol (4% water) as diesel fuel.

Used WVO and castor oil are not the same (and the quality of the WVO
surely matters too - higher FFA probably means more water, for one thing).
But I think Pagandai's recipe might be a good one just the same: vegetable
oil 70%, hydrated (96%) ethanol 10% and biodiesel 20%.

There's also the ACREVO study of SVO use, which mentions using 9% of 95%
ethyl alcohol with SVO:

"The overall combustion performance of the rapeseed oil are very
satisfactory in comparison with the diesel fuel while the rapeseed oil

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Thomas Kelly]

Thanks Fritz.
 I'll pass on the info regarding fuel consumption. He mentioned that he 
has been looking into getting a caterpillar diesel generator. I suspect that 
is where he got the 11.5 L/hour figure.
 He may have a reliable source for WVO. Using WVO rather than BD
is appealing, because settling/filtering is more appealing to him than 
processing the oil into BD. He also has concerns regarding disposal of the 
glycerin produced. I'll pass along your concern regarding SVO or even a 
blend. I'm sure he can appreciate what you mean when you say that "A 
breakdown would be costly, specially it would always happen in the worst 
time." Do  you have any thoughts about using BD in a woodshop generator?
 I'll also pass along the info on your Genset and "your coordinates."
  Thanks again,
  Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Fritz Friesinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators


> Hi Tom,
> i have a 100KvA 600V Dieselgenerator with a 140 HP Mitsubishi Engine.The 
> consumption by staedy 30A is a little less than 8 liters/hr.
> I would not take the chance and run the Gen on straigt WVO or even a blend 
> of the same. The Genset has to perform staedy in a woodworkshop.A 
> braekdown would be to costly,specially it would always happen in the worst 
> time!
> My Genset by the way is for sale,it has 370hrs on and is in mint 
> condition.
> If your woodworking student is interested please give him my coordinates
> www.boiseriestraditionnelles.ca
> Fritz
>  - Original Message - 
>  From: Thomas Kelly
>  To: biofuel
>  Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:01 PM
>  Subject: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
>
>
>  Hello All,
>  On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>  >The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel 
> can >make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5 
>  >porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used 
>  >vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with >Conventional 
> deisel.
>  >Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 
>  >percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for 
>  >motor maintainence in rural areas.
>
>   I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to 
> generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is 
> considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he 
> look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as 
> he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week).
> 1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested 
> by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
>
> 2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
>   In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only 
> that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human 
> consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not 
> have to be denatured
>
> 3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
>  I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to 
> their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the 
> total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%)
>
>Thanks,
> Tom
>  -- next part --
>  An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>  URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html
>  ___
>  Biofuel mailing list
>  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
>  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
> messages):
>  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/77db28bc/attachment.html
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Thomas Kelly]

Tom,
 Thanks for the reply.
 I'll pass on the info
   Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Thiel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators


> Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1
> horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at
> will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each
> machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This
> system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to
> full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since
> the rotor is already spinning.
>
> If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge
> variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet
> stacking potential in the system.
>
> I await the SVO discussion with great interest.
>
> Tom Thiel
>
>
>
> On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
>> Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for
>> SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating
>> temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can
>> get it -- 180F or higher.  The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel
>> and ethanol seem pretty risky.
>>
>> One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on
>> the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at
>> less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting
>> large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently.
>>
>> Z
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>> On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>>>> The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel
>>>>  can >make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also
>>>> some e 5 >porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the
>>>> viscosity of used >vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing
>>>> dependence with >Conventional deisel.
>>>> Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10
>>>> >percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem
>>>> for >motor maintainence in rural areas.
>>>
>>>  I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like
>>> to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is
>>> considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested
>>> he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into
>>> BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+
>>> gal/week).
>>>1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that
>>> suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
>>>
>>>2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
>>>  In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol.
>>> Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent
>>> human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises
>>> would not have to be denatured
>>>
>>>3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
>>> I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline
>>> to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix,
>>> the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%)
>>>
>>>   Thanks,
>>>Tom
>>> -- next part --
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html
>>> ___
>>> Biofuel mailing list
>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>>
>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000
>>> messages):
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Thomas Kelly]

Thanks Zeke.
 It sounds like it would be like running WVO in a diesel car; warm up 
the engine using BD, heat up the WVO, purge the lines before shutting down.
 I'll pass on the concern re: wet stacking.
 Do you happen to know what WVO should be filtered to (ex 10 mincrons, 1 
micron) to run in a diesel motor?
 Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators


> Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for
> SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating
> temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can
> get it -- 180F or higher.  The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel
> and ethanol seem pretty risky.
>
> One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on
> the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at
> less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting
> large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently.
>
> Z
>
> On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hello All,
>> On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>> >The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel 
>> >can >make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 
>> >5 >porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of 
>> >used >vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with 
>> > >Conventional deisel.
>> >Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 
>> > >percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for 
>> > >motor maintainence in rural areas.
>>
>>  I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to 
>> generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is 
>> considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he 
>> look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as 
>> he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week).
>>1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested 
>> by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
>>
>>2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
>>  In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only 
>> that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human 
>> consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not 
>> have to be denatured
>>
>>3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
>> I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to 
>> their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the 
>> total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%)
>>
>>   Thanks,
>>Tom
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hi Tom,
you could have achieved the low startload of havy motors with a Star Delta 
switch.
Fritz
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Thiel 
  To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators


  Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 
  horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at 
  will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each 
  machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This 
  system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to 
  full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since 
  the rotor is already spinning.

  If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge 
  variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet 
  stacking potential in the system.

  I await the SVO discussion with great interest.

  Tom Thiel



  On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:

  > Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for
  > SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating
  > temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can
  > get it -- 180F or higher.  The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel
  > and ethanol seem pretty risky.
  >
  > One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on
  > the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at
  > less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting
  > large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently.
  >
  > Z
  >
  > On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >> Hello All,
  >> On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
  >>> The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel 
  >>>  can >make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also 
  >>> some e 5 >porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the 
  >>> viscosity of used >vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  
  >>> dependence with >Conventional deisel.
  >>> Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 
  >>> >percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem 
  >>> for >motor maintainence in rural areas.
  >>
  >>  I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like 
  >> to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is 
  >> considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested 
  >> he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into 
  >> BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ 
  >> gal/week).
  >>1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that 
  >> suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
  >>
  >>2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
  >>  In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. 
  >> Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent 
  >> human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises 
  >> would not have to be denatured
  >>
  >>3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
  >> I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline 
  >> to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, 
  >> the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%)
  >>
  >>   Thanks,
  >>Tom
  >> -- next part --
  >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
  >> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html
  >> ___
  >> Biofuel mailing list
  >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
  >>
  >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  >>
  >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
  >> messages):
  >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  >>
  >
  > ___
  > Biofuel mailing list
  > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
  >
  > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  >
  > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
  > messages):
  > http://www.mail-archive.c

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Tom Thiel]

Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 
horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at 
will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each 
machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This 
system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to 
full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since 
the rotor is already spinning.

If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge 
variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet 
stacking potential in the system.

I await the SVO discussion with great interest.

Tom Thiel



On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:

> Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for
> SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating
> temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can
> get it -- 180F or higher.  The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel
> and ethanol seem pretty risky.
>
> One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on
> the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at
> less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting
> large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently.
>
> Z
>
> On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hello All,
>> On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>>> The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel 
>>>  can >make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also 
>>> some e 5 >porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the 
>>> viscosity of used >vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  
>>> dependence with >Conventional deisel.
>>> Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 
>>> >percent  and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem 
>>> for >motor maintainence in rural areas.
>>
>>  I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like 
>> to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is 
>> considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested 
>> he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into 
>> BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ 
>> gal/week).
>>1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that 
>> suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
>>
>>2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
>>  In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. 
>> Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent 
>> human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises 
>> would not have to be denatured
>>
>>3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
>> I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline 
>> to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, 
>> the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%)
>>
>>   Thanks,
>>Tom
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hi Tom,
i have a 100KvA 600V Dieselgenerator with a 140 HP Mitsubishi Engine.The 
consumption by staedy 30A is a little less than 8 liters/hr.
I would not take the chance and run the Gen on straigt WVO or even a blend of 
the same. The Genset has to perform staedy in a woodworkshop.A braekdown would 
be to costly,specially it would always happen in the worst time!
My Genset by the way is for sale,it has 370hrs on and is in mint condition.
If your woodworking student is interested please give him my coordinates
www.boiseriestraditionnelles.ca 
Fritz
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:01 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators


  Hello All,
  On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
  >The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel  can 
>make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5 >porcent 
hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used >vegetable 
oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with >Conventional deisel. 
  >Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 >percent 
 and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for >motor 
maintainence in rural areas.

   I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to 
generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a 
diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a 
BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 
3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 
 1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested by 
Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 

 2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
   In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that 
which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 
85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured

 3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
  I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their 
diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline 
would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%) 

Thanks,
 Tom
  -- next part --
  An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
  URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html 
  ___
  Biofuel mailing list
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/77db28bc/attachment.html 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Zeke Yewdall]

Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for
SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating
temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can
get it -- 180F or higher.  The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel
and ethanol seem pretty risky.

One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on
the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at
less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting
large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently.

Z

On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello All,
> On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
> >The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel  can 
> >>make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5 
> >>porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used 
> >>vegetable oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with >Conventional 
> >deisel.
> >Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 >percent 
> > and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for >motor 
> >maintainence in rural areas.
>
>  I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to 
> generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering 
> a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using 
> a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using 
> about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week).
>1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested by 
> Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator?
>
>2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
>  In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that 
> which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 
> 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured
>
>3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
> I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their 
> diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total 
> gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%)
>
>   Thanks,
>Tom
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators

[Thomas Kelly]

Hello All,
On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote:
>The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel  can 
>>make possible the use of pure used vegetable  oil and  also some e 5 >porcent 
>hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used >vegetable 
>oil  in deiesel engine, removing  dependence with >Conventional deisel. 
>Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 >percent  
>and biodeisel 20 porcent   can be used with less problem for >motor 
>maintainence in rural areas.

 I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to 
generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a 
diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a 
BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 
3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 
   1.  Does anyone have experience using a  blend such as that suggested by 
Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 

   2.  Hydrated ethanol:  What % water would be tolerated?
 In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that 
which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 
85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured

   3.  Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol?
I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their 
diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline 
would only be .15 X .10 = .0150   (1.5%) 

  Thanks,
   Tom
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze

[Zeke Yewdall]

On Dec 16, 2007 7:22 AM, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Doug,
> >I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter  "dumpster
> > divers".

Depends on what the label said... if it made it clear that another
homebrewer was collecting the oil, it might be respected, but if it
appeared that some large corporation was collecting the oil, probably
not.  The food stores here have actually locked their dumpsters at
times, and it has not significantly deterred people from getting fresh
veggies from them, but it did increase incidents of vandalism of the
dumpsters, and I know quite a few people who used to go shopping both
inside the store and in the dumpster, and now they refuse to shop
inside the store.



> You're probably right. I thought it might at least be more difficult to
> remove the barrel/WVO than just picking up the 18L containers. Of course it
> also makes it more difficult for me too.
>
> >... by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable.
> Hadn't thought of that.
>
>Thanks for the reply,
>   Tom
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Doug Younker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze
>
>
> >I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter  "dumpster
> > divers". The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming
> > ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil
> > would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be
> > held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very
> > high if the WVO ever got onto water.  As it is now the restaurants'
> > liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come
> > across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a "property of
> > label" of someone other than their insured party.  Rural or not the
> > label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have
> > regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal.
> > Doug, N0LKK
> > Kansas USA inc.
> >
> >
> > Thomas Kelly wrote:
> >> Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30
> >> gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask
> >> because I am finding increased "hijacking" of "my" WVO. This despite
> >> owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: "No.
> >> We already have someone picking it up" (me). The restaurants I
> >> collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They
> >> put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a
> >> week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that
> >> I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it
> >> in the barrel for a "local guy". The WVO in the barrel seems to be
> >> left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like
> >> "Property of T Kelly" might discourage "hijackers"  .  or does it
> >> just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural
> >> New York (USA).
> >>
> >> Comments appreciated, Tom
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze

[Thomas Kelly]

Doug,
>I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter  "dumpster
> divers".
You're probably right. I thought it might at least be more difficult to 
remove the barrel/WVO than just picking up the 18L containers. Of course it 
also makes it more difficult for me too.

>... by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable.
Hadn't thought of that.

   Thanks for the reply,
  Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Doug Younker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze


>I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter  "dumpster
> divers". The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming
> ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil
> would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be
> held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very
> high if the WVO ever got onto water.  As it is now the restaurants'
> liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come
> across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a "property of
> label" of someone other than their insured party.  Rural or not the
> label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have
> regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal.
> Doug, N0LKK
> Kansas USA inc.
>
>
> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>> Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30
>> gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask
>> because I am finding increased "hijacking" of "my" WVO. This despite
>> owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: "No.
>> We already have someone picking it up" (me). The restaurants I
>> collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They
>> put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a
>> week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that
>> I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it
>> in the barrel for a "local guy". The WVO in the barrel seems to be
>> left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like
>> "Property of T Kelly" might discourage "hijackers"  .  or does it
>> just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural
>> New York (USA).
>>
>> Comments appreciated, Tom
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze

[Doug Younker]

I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter  "dumpster
divers". The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming 
ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil 
would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be 
held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very 
high if the WVO ever got onto water.  As it is now the restaurants' 
liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come 
across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a "property of 
label" of someone other than their insured party.  Rural or not the 
label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have 
regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal.
Doug, N0LKK
Kansas USA inc.


Thomas Kelly wrote:
> Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30
> gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask
> because I am finding increased "hijacking" of "my" WVO. This despite
> owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: "No.
> We already have someone picking it up" (me). The restaurants I
> collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They
> put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a
> week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that
> I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it
> in the barrel for a "local guy". The WVO in the barrel seems to be
> left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like
> "Property of T Kelly" might discourage "hijackers"  .  or does it
> just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural
> New York (USA).
> 
> Comments appreciated, Tom


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO squeeze

[Thomas Kelly]

Hello,
 Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30 gal/ ~ 55 or 
115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in?
 I ask because I am finding increased "hijacking" of "my" WVO. This despite 
owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: "No. We already 
have someone picking it up" (me). The restaurants I collect from have a nice, 
friendly, but informal relationship. They put plastic containers (cubies) out 
for me. I pick them up once a week.
 I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that I used to 
pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it in the barrel for a 
"local guy". The WVO in the barrel seems to be left untouched. It doesn't have 
a label. I thought a label like "Property of T Kelly" might discourage 
"hijackers"  .  or does it just alert the powers that be to come bust my 
chops? I live in rural New York (USA).

 Comments appreciated,
Tom
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20071210/f7898981/attachment.html 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel

[Joe Street]

Thanks to Fox and James for the response.

Joe

fox mulder wrote:


--- JAMES PHELPS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 


Joe I re ran some bio with Diesel in it and it was
inert to the reaction and was intact afterward as
near as I could tell.

Jim
 - Original Message - 
 From: Joe
Street<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 To:


   


Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
 


 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:03 PM
 Subject: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel
fuel


 I have been searching the archives with various
keywords for a post 
 about what happens when you try to react oil that
has a few percent of 
 petroleum diesel in it.  I seem to remember the
subject came up some 
 time back but I cannot find it.  Does anyone know
what happens in this 
 case?  Does the petroleum spoil the reaction ( I
am wondering about acid 
 base reaction here) does it go along for the ride
unaffected?  If anyone 
 knows or can remember the thread I would much

appreciate to hear from you.

 Joe


 ___
 Biofuel mailing list


   


Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
 




   


http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org<http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>
 


 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:


   


http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html<http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>
 


 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
archives (50,000 messages):


   


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/<http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>
 


___
 


Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

   


http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
archives (50,000 messages):

   


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 


Diesel is an alkane. You often find that alkanes are
not very reactive where as fatty acids react with
sodium ethnoate to form methyl ester. 


fox
 








___ 
New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. 
http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel

[fox mulder]

--- JAMES PHELPS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Joe I re ran some bio with Diesel in it and it was
> inert to the reaction and was intact afterward as
> near as I could tell.
> 
> Jim
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Joe
> Street<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>   To:
>
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> 
>   Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:03 PM
>   Subject: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel
> fuel
> 
> 
>   I have been searching the archives with various
> keywords for a post 
>   about what happens when you try to react oil that
> has a few percent of 
>   petroleum diesel in it.  I seem to remember the
> subject came up some 
>   time back but I cannot find it.  Does anyone know
> what happens in this 
>   case?  Does the petroleum spoil the reaction ( I
> am wondering about acid 
>   base reaction here) does it go along for the ride
> unaffected?  If anyone 
>   knows or can remember the thread I would much
> appreciate to hear from you.
> 
>   Joe
> 
> 
>   ___
>   Biofuel mailing list
>  
>
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>  
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org<http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>
> 
>   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>  
>
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html<http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>
> 
>   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>  
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/<http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>
> 
> > ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
Diesel is an alkane. You often find that alkanes are
not very reactive where as fatty acids react with
sodium ethnoate to form methyl ester. 

fox
> 






___ 
New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at 
the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. 
http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk 

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel

[JAMES PHELPS]

Joe I re ran some bio with Diesel in it and it was inert to the reaction and 
was intact afterward as near as I could tell.

Jim
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:03 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel


  I have been searching the archives with various keywords for a post 
  about what happens when you try to react oil that has a few percent of 
  petroleum diesel in it.  I seem to remember the subject came up some 
  time back but I cannot find it.  Does anyone know what happens in this 
  case?  Does the petroleum spoil the reaction ( I am wondering about acid 
  base reaction here) does it go along for the ride unaffected?  If anyone 
  knows or can remember the thread I would much appreciate to hear from you.

  Joe


  ___
  Biofuel mailing list
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
  
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org<http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html<http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>

  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
  
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/<http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO contaminated with diesel fuel

[Joe Street]

I have been searching the archives with various keywords for a post 
about what happens when you try to react oil that has a few percent of 
petroleum diesel in it.  I seem to remember the subject came up some 
time back but I cannot find it.  Does anyone know what happens in this 
case?  Does the petroleum spoil the reaction ( I am wondering about acid 
base reaction here) does it go along for the ride unaffected?  If anyone 
knows or can remember the thread I would much appreciate to hear from you.

Joe


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem

[Joe Street]

Biodiesel is an excellent cleaner.  Try putting some b100 on a rag and 
then follow with hot soapy water.
The BD will remove the wax also though.

Joe

Derick Giorchino wrote:

>Yup it's hard to remove and it gets sticker as time goes on. I know. I have
>used the citrus cleaner and it cuts the WVO very well with no damage to the
>paint but be aware there will be no wax ether.
>Good luck: Derick.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Wilson
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:51 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem
>
>Hi,
>No matter how much cleaning I did after I spilled a little WVO on the
>car I ended up with a big, fat stain on the side of my car. I just had my
>car painted and it is in show room condition so I did not want a fat stain
>destroying the looks. I came up with a very simple solution. I took all the
>fridge magnets off of the fridge and a plastic garbage bag. I pushed the
>closed end of the garbage bag into the filler spout hatch and secured it
>there with fridge magnets. I secured the rest of the garbage bag to the side
>of the car with additional fridge magnets. Now if I spill any WVO none gets
>on the paint. Works great.
>Yours truly
>John Wilson
>***
>Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve
>Goldens
>Ph-Fax (902)665-2386)
>Web:  http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm
> Pups:  http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm
>Politics:http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm
> http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/c68.htm
>In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM .
>After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone.
>^
>
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>  
>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem

[Derick Giorchino]

Yup it's hard to remove and it gets sticker as time goes on. I know. I have
used the citrus cleaner and it cuts the WVO very well with no damage to the
paint but be aware there will be no wax ether.
Good luck: Derick.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:51 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem

Hi,
No matter how much cleaning I did after I spilled a little WVO on the
car I ended up with a big, fat stain on the side of my car. I just had my
car painted and it is in show room condition so I did not want a fat stain
destroying the looks. I came up with a very simple solution. I took all the
fridge magnets off of the fridge and a plastic garbage bag. I pushed the
closed end of the garbage bag into the filler spout hatch and secured it
there with fridge magnets. I secured the rest of the garbage bag to the side
of the car with additional fridge magnets. Now if I spill any WVO none gets
on the paint. Works great.
Yours truly
John Wilson
***
Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve
Goldens
Ph-Fax (902)665-2386)
Web:  http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm
 Pups:  http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm
Politics:http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm
 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/c68.htm
In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM .
After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone.
^




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO damaging paint easy way to correct the problem

[John Wilson]

Hi,
No matter how much cleaning I did after I spilled a little WVO on the
car I ended up with a big, fat stain on the side of my car. I just had my
car painted and it is in show room condition so I did not want a fat stain
destroying the looks. I came up with a very simple solution. I took all the
fridge magnets off of the fridge and a plastic garbage bag. I pushed the
closed end of the garbage bag into the filler spout hatch and secured it
there with fridge magnets. I secured the rest of the garbage bag to the side
of the car with additional fridge magnets. Now if I spill any WVO none gets
on the paint. Works great.
Yours truly
John Wilson
***
Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve
Goldens
Ph-Fax (902)665-2386)
Web:  http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm
 Pups:  http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm
Politics:http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm
 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/c68.htm
In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM .
After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone.
^




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,
 Too late to patent "designer exhaust". Somebody told me an exhaust 
aroma additive is already on the market.

 I have little experience using canola and none w. winter canola.

  I would expect varieties of the same plant,  adapted to different 
environmental conditions to have biochemical variations that favor survival. 
Plants adapted to cold conditions may well produce oils with lower cloud 
points   greater fluidity at low temps. I suspect winter canola grows at 
a colder time of year.

Can you get samples of both?  Test/compare viscosities?

Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO


> Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently
> I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off
> smelling like an orage blossom. LOL.
>
> But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now
> when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a
> low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an
> organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He
> claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans
> esterify.  I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the
> winter canola.  Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it?
>
> Joe
>
> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>
>> Luke,
>>  "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
>>
>>  Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
>> If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>>  If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the 
>> heating
>> element?
>>
>>  The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
>>
>>  I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing 
>> (32F
>> /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is 
>> a
>> good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by 
>> putting
>> it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to 
>> cloud.) I
>> drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>>  Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
>> This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that
>> clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds 
>> easily
>> becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff
>> becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>>  I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust
>> smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L)
>> batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it.
>> It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the 
>> morning.
>> He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit 
>> the
>> bill.
>>  Good luck w the WVO
>>  By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
>>
>>   Tom
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>
>>
>>
>>>Tom,
>>>
>>>I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then
>>>congelled
>>>again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks
>>>like
>>>black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the 
>>>rest
>>>brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point
>>>in
>>>processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use?
>>>At
>>>what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>>>
>>>Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>>>
>>>Thanks for your help.
>>>:-)
>>>Luke
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>To: 
>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>>>
>>>>Luke,
>>>> If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have
>>>>some
>>>>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>>>excellent warm weather fuel.
>>&g

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[bob allen]

I don't see why not.

Joe Street wrote:
> Hi Bob;
> 
> Yes that was my thinking.  What about using them as an additive to 
> modify B100??
> 
> Joe
> 
> bob allen wrote:
> 
>> citrus oil is essentially a mixture of hydrocarbons, not lipids so it 
>> couldn't be converted to methyl esters like biodiesel.  That doesn't 
>> mean however that it couldn't be blended with bio or dino diesel and 
>> be successfully exploited as a fuel.
>>
>>
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>
>>> Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently 
>>> I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off 
>>> smelling like an orage blossom. LOL.
>>>
>>> But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now 
>>> when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a 
>>> low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an 
>>> organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He 
>>> claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans 
>>> esterify.  I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the 
>>> winter canola.  Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it?
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Luke,
>>>> "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
>>>>
>>>> Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
>>>> If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>>>> If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating 
>>>> element?
>>>>
>>>> The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
>>>>
>>>> I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing 
>>>> (32F 
>>>> /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a 
>>>> good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by 
>>>> putting 
>>>> it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) 
>>>> I 
>>>> drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>>>> Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
>>>> This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that 
>>>> clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily 
>>>> becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff 
>>>> becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>>>> I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust 
>>>> smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) 
>>>> batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it. 
>>>> It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the 
>>>> morning. 
>>>> He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the 
>>>> bill.
>>>> Good luck w the WVO
>>>> By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
>>>>
>>>>  Tom
>>>> - Original Message - 
>>>> From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: 
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Tom,
>>>>>
>>>>> I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
>>>>> congelled
>>>>> again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
>>>>> like
>>>>> black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
>>>>> brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
>>>>> in
>>>>> processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
>>>>> At
>>>>> what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>>> :-)
>>>>> Luke
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Joe Street]

Hi Bob;

Yes that was my thinking.  What about using them as an additive to 
modify B100??

Joe

bob allen wrote:

> citrus oil is essentially a mixture of hydrocarbons, not lipids so it 
> couldn't be converted to methyl esters like biodiesel.  That doesn't 
> mean however that it couldn't be blended with bio or dino diesel and 
> be successfully exploited as a fuel.
> 
> 
> Joe Street wrote:
> 
>>Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently 
>>I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off 
>>smelling like an orage blossom. LOL.
>>
>>But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now 
>>when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a 
>>low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an 
>>organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He 
>>claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans 
>>esterify.  I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the 
>>winter canola.  Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it?
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Luke,
>>> "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
>>>
>>> Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
>>>If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>>> If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating 
>>>element?
>>>
>>> The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
>>>
>>> I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F 
>>>/~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a 
>>>good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting 
>>>it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I 
>>>drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>>> Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
>>>This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that 
>>>clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily 
>>>becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff 
>>>becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>>> I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust 
>>>smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) 
>>>batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it. 
>>>It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. 
>>>He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the 
>>>bill.
>>> Good luck w the WVO
>>> By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
>>>
>>>  Tom
>>>- Original Message - 
>>>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tom,
>>>>
>>>>I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
>>>>congelled
>>>>again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
>>>>like
>>>>black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
>>>>brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
>>>>in
>>>>processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
>>>>At
>>>>what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>>>>
>>>>Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for your help.
>>>>:-)
>>>>Luke
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>>To: 
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>Luke,
>>>>>If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have 
>>>>>some
>>>>>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>>>>excellent warm weather fuel.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Of course, it might be water.
>>>

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[bob allen]

citrus oil is essentially a mixture of hydrocarbons, not lipids so it 
couldn't be converted to methyl esters like biodiesel.  That doesn't 
mean however that it couldn't be blended with bio or dino diesel and 
be successfully exploited as a fuel.


Joe Street wrote:
> Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently 
> I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off 
> smelling like an orage blossom. LOL.
> 
> But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now 
> when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a 
> low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an 
> organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He 
> claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans 
> esterify.  I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the 
> winter canola.  Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it?
> 
> Joe
> 
> Thomas Kelly wrote:
> 
>> Luke,
>>  "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
>>
>>  Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
>> If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>>  If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating 
>> element?
>>
>>  The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
>>
>>  I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F 
>> /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a 
>> good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting 
>> it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I 
>> drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>>  Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
>> This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that 
>> clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily 
>> becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff 
>> becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>>  I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust 
>> smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) 
>> batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it. 
>> It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. 
>> He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the 
>> bill.
>>  Good luck w the WVO
>>  By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
>>
>>   Tom
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>
>>
>>
>>> Tom,
>>>
>>> I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
>>> congelled
>>> again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
>>> like
>>> black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
>>> brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
>>> in
>>> processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
>>> At
>>> what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>>>
>>> Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>> :-)
>>> Luke
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Luke,
>>>> If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have 
>>>> some
>>>> animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>>> excellent warm weather fuel.
>>>>
>>>>Of course, it might be water.
>>>>
>>>>Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the
>>>> dried
>>>> WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon
>>>> cooling it probably contains animal fat.
>>>>Tom
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: 
>>&g

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Joe Street]

Hi Mike;

We are talking about WINTER rape here. (I'm not referring to indoor 
activities on those long dark cold Canadian winters). According to this 
farmer winter rape is known in europe and not much here, but it is a 
variety of rape seed which has oil of much lower viscosity and has a low 
pour point. Several cultivars are described here:

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/v3-272.html

I can find very little information to confirm that the winter hardy 
variety actually produces oil which is better for winter use.  I'm 
looking for confirmation from list members if anybody knows.

Joe

Mike Weaver wrote:

> Depends on the mix, I imagine.  5% rapeseed oil would be fine w/ winter 
> diesel
> 
> Joe Street wrote:
> 
> 
>>Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently 
>>I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off 
>>smelling like an orage blossom. LOL.
>>
>>But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now 
>>when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a 
>>low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an 
>>organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He 
>>claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans 
>>esterify.  I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the 
>>winter canola.  Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it?
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>>Luke,
>>>"So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
>>>
>>>Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
>>>If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>>>If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating 
>>>element?
>>>
>>>The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
>>>
>>>I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F 
>>>/~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a 
>>>good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting 
>>>it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I 
>>>drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>>>Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
>>>This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that 
>>>clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily 
>>>becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff 
>>>becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>>>I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust 
>>>smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) 
>>>batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it. 
>>>It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. 
>>>He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the 
>>>bill.
>>>Good luck w the WVO
>>>By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>- Original Message - 
>>>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tom,
>>>>
>>>>I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
>>>>congelled
>>>>again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
>>>>like
>>>>black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
>>>>brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
>>>>in
>>>>processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
>>>>At
>>>>what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>>>>
>>>>Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for your help.
>>>>:-)
>>>>Luke
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>>To: 
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>>>Date: Thu,

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Mike Weaver]

Depends on the mix, I imagine.  5% rapeseed oil would be fine w/ winter 
diesel

Joe Street wrote:

>Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently 
>I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off 
>smelling like an orage blossom. LOL.
>
>But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now 
>when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a 
>low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an 
>organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He 
>claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans 
>esterify.  I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the 
>winter canola.  Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it?
>
>Joe
>
>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Luke,
>> "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
>>
>> Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
>>If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>> If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating 
>>element?
>>
>> The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
>>
>> I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F 
>>/~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a 
>>good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting 
>>it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I 
>>drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>> Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
>>This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that 
>>clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily 
>>becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff 
>>becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>> I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust 
>>smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) 
>>batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it. 
>>It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. 
>>He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the 
>>bill.
>> Good luck w the WVO
>> By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
>>
>>  Tom
>>- Original Message - 
>>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Tom,
>>>
>>>I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
>>>congelled
>>>again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
>>>like
>>>black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
>>>brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
>>>in
>>>processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
>>>At
>>>what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>>>
>>>Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>>>
>>>Thanks for your help.
>>>:-)
>>>Luke
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>To: 
>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>>>
>>>>Luke,
>>>>If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have 
>>>>some
>>>>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>>>excellent warm weather fuel.
>>>>
>>>>   Of course, it might be water.
>>>>
>>>>   Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the
>>>>dried
>>>>WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon
>>>>cooling it probably contains animal fat.
>>>>   Tom
>>>>- Original Message -
>>>>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>To: 
>>>>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM
>>>>Subject

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Joe Street]

Very funny Tom! Designer exhausts! You should patent that idea. Recently 
I was wondering if I could make biofuel out of citrus oil and go off 
smelling like an orage blossom. LOL.

But seriously ( actually I am seriously curious about citrus oil) now 
when it comes to the pour point some of these aromatic oils may make a 
low temperature fuel. ?? I have been talking to a farmer who runs an 
organic dairy farm and he is growing a crop of winter rape this fall. He 
claims you can mix the SVO with winter diesel and don't need to trans 
esterify.  I am skeptical of course. I have very little info on the 
winter canola.  Do you or does anyone on the list have experience with it?

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

> Luke,
>  "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
> 
>  Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
> If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>  If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating 
> element?
> 
>  The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
> 
>  I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F 
> /~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a 
> good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting 
> it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I 
> drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>  Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
> This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that 
> clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily 
> becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff 
> becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>  I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust 
> smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) 
> batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it. 
> It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. 
> He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the 
> bill.
>  Good luck w the WVO
>  By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
> 
>   Tom
> - Original Message - 
> From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
> 
> 
> 
>>Tom,
>>
>>I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
>>congelled
>>again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
>>like
>>black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
>>brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
>>in
>>processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
>>At
>>what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>>
>>Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>>
>>Thanks for your help.
>>:-)
>>Luke
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>To: 
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>>
>>>Luke,
>>> If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have 
>>>some
>>>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>>excellent warm weather fuel.
>>>
>>>    Of course, it might be water.
>>>
>>>Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the
>>>dried
>>>WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon
>>>cooling it probably contains animal fat.
>>>Tom
>>>- Original Message -
>>>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM
>>>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it
>>>>settles.  A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown 
>>>>non-translucent
>>>>layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black
>>>
>>>solids
>>>
>>>>on
>>>>the bottom.  My question is the middle brown layer.  It seems - and I
>>>>havent
>>>>run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it.
>>>
>>>Is
>>>
>>>

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Bob Carr]

Hi Luke,
I get oil like this from one of my suppliers. I don't get the black sediment 
layer but I do get two distinct layers even after thorough dewatering. The 
upper layer is clear oil while the lower layer is caramel coloured and about 
as solid as soft butter. When it was warmed up, it would melt to a liquid 
and become much darker, coffee coloured. (espresso) I have separated this 
lower layer out and tried making a test batch with it, with reasonable 
results. My best results were with the acid/base process.
Dewater your oil thoroughly and try a test batch, it is the best way to know 
for sure if it is usable or not.
Regards,
Bob
- Original Message - 
From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO


> Tom,
>
> I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
> congelled
> again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
> like
> black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
> brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
> in
> processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
> At
> what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>
> Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>
> Thanks for your help.
> :-)
> Luke
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>
>>Luke,
>>  If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have 
>> some
>>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>excellent warm weather fuel.
>>
>> Of course, it might be water.
>>
>> Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the
>>dried
>>WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon
>>cooling it probably contains animal fat.
>> Tom
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM
>>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO
>>
>>
>> > The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it
>> > settles.  A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown 
>> > non-translucent
>> > layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black
>>solids
>> > on
>> > the bottom.  My question is the middle brown layer.  It seems - and I
>> > havent
>> > run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it.
>>Is
>> > it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off
>> > the
>> > water?
>> >
>> > :-)
>> > Luke
>> >
>> > _
>> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > ___
>> > Biofuel mailing list
>> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> >
>> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> >
>> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> > messages):
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>
> _
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Thomas Kelly]

Luke,
 The solid white layer is probably animal fat  ... bacon grease?
 As long as the petro diesel was winterized, my 70% BD : 30% petro 
didn't gel even at temps of -10F (-23C). A friend of mine has an outside 
storage tank and will go 50 : 50  BD to dino diesel.
 I think you can use BD in any burner. You may have to make some minor 
adjustments. I have a Beckett AF oil burner and a Burnham boiler. At a 50 : 
50 mix I started to have some startup problems and had to increase pump 
pressure from 100 to 125 psi. I also switched from a 1.0 gph/80 degree 
nozzle to 0.75gph/80. I decreased air flow and installed a Webster Bio Pump 
with viton seals (compatible w BD). It now runs on 100% biodiesel.
   Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO


> Tom,
>
> I have a tank less hot water heater that I can easily adjust the temp from
> 100 to 176 F, I put the oil in a pete bottle, filled the sink with 176f
> water and set the bottle in it.  I checked it after a few minutes and it 
> was
> in the process of turning translucent.  The next morning it had stratified
> as I indicated.  I neglected to tell you that the white layer seem almost
> solid.  When I tipped the bottle it wanted to stay in place.  Later today 
> I
> will pour it into a pan and see if I get any snap-crackle-pop,  indicating
> that Andres is correct.
>
> I am using BD for a backup generator for my solar system.  It can get very
> cold (sub zero) and my generator is in a shed attached to the house. Due 
> to
> ventilation requirements it gets almost as cold in the shed.
>
> Now that I am 100% clean on the electrical side, I would love to reduce my
> propane use.  I use propane for heat, and hot water.  What kind of furnace
> are you using to burn BD?  I am looking for some kind of free standing 
> stove
> to heat our basement (which in turn will heat the house, I have in-floor
> propane heated hydronics in the basement floor, which I designed to then
> heat the whole house).  We were planning to put in a wood stove, but after 
> I
> started the BD project I am leaning hard toward an oil stove.
>
> Love to hear how bacon and egg exhaust goes.
>
> And lastly
> YOU BUSTED ME!
> (I don't titrate)
>
> I spent more than a week trying titration, and ended in total frustration.
> I could never get it to work.  So using poor man titration, and lots of
> trial and error with the blender, I use the two stage process with 
> beautiful
> results (passes the quality tests with flying colors).  My formula is 10g
> KOH/1 liter Methanol.  25% Methoxide.  75% first stage - 25% second.  3
> vigorous washes and its done!
>
> :-)
> Luke
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:33:35 -0400
>>
>>Luke,
>>  "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.
>>
>>  Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
>>If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
>>  If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the 
>> heating
>>element?
>>
>>  The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.
>>
>>  I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing
>>(32F
>>/~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a
>>good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by 
>>putting
>>it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.)
>>I
>>drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
>>  Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
>>This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that
>>clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily
>>becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff
>>becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
>>  I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust
>>smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L)
>>batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it.
>>It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the
>>morning.
>>He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the
>>bill.
>>  Good luck w the WVO
>>  By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?
>>
>>   Tom
>>- Ori

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[WM LUKE MATHISEN]

Tom,

I have a tank less hot water heater that I can easily adjust the temp from 
100 to 176 F, I put the oil in a pete bottle, filled the sink with 176f 
water and set the bottle in it.  I checked it after a few minutes and it was 
in the process of turning translucent.  The next morning it had stratified 
as I indicated.  I neglected to tell you that the white layer seem almost 
solid.  When I tipped the bottle it wanted to stay in place.  Later today I 
will pour it into a pan and see if I get any snap-crackle-pop,  indicating 
that Andres is correct.


I am using BD for a backup generator for my solar system.  It can get very 
cold (sub zero) and my generator is in a shed attached to the house. Due to 
ventilation requirements it gets almost as cold in the shed.


Now that I am 100% clean on the electrical side, I would love to reduce my 
propane use.  I use propane for heat, and hot water.  What kind of furnace 
are you using to burn BD?  I am looking for some kind of free standing stove 
to heat our basement (which in turn will heat the house, I have in-floor 
propane heated hydronics in the basement floor, which I designed to then 
heat the whole house).  We were planning to put in a wood stove, but after I 
started the BD project I am leaning hard toward an oil stove.


Love to hear how bacon and egg exhaust goes.

And lastly
YOU BUSTED ME!
(I don't titrate)

I spent more than a week trying titration, and ended in total frustration.  
I could never get it to work.  So using poor man titration, and lots of 
trial and error with the blender, I use the two stage process with beautiful 
results (passes the quality tests with flying colors).  My formula is 10g 
KOH/1 liter Methanol.  25% Methoxide.  75% first stage - 25% second.  3 
vigorous washes and its done!


:-)
Luke



From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:33:35 -0400

Luke,
 "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.

 Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
 If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating
element?

 The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.

 I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing 
(32F

/~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a
good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting
it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) 
I

drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
 Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that
clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily
becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff
becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
 I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust
smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L)
batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it.
It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the 
morning.

He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the
bill.
 Good luck w the WVO
 By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?

  Tom
- Original Message -
From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO


> Tom,
>
> I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then
> congelled
> again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks
> like
> black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the 
rest
> brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any 
point

> in
> processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use?
> At
> what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>
> Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>
> Thanks for your help.
> :-)
> Luke
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>
>>Luke,
>>  If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have
>> some
>>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>excellent warm weather fuel.
>>
>> Of course, it might be water.
>>
>> Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the
>>dried
>>WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds 
upon

>>cooling it p

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Andres Secco]

For me the white layer is non reacted saturated monoglicerides, diglicerides 
and fat. I made a second step sterification and the layer did not formed 
again.
It seems that more yield is get with a two stage process (using 60% and then 
40% of  methanol and soda) than a single step one.
That white layer is not formed with virgin vegetable oil.

;-)

Cheers

- Original Message - 
From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO


> The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it
> settles.  A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent
> layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids 
> on
> the bottom.  My question is the middle brown layer.  It seems - and I 
> havent
> run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it.  Is
> it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off 
> the
> water?
>
> :-)
> Luke
>
> _
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
>





> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
> 

__
Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar más rápido en Internet. 
Tutopia es Internet para todos.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Thomas Kelly]

Luke,
 "So chicken fat it is." Maybe.

 Did you use bottom heat?   as in a pot on the stove?
If so, did it crackle a bit? Any water on the bottom?
 If you used a submersible heater, did bubbles form around the heating 
element?

 The white stuff ,  "about 5%", might be water.

 I use 100% BD in my car until night temps get down around freezing (32F 
/~2C). I then go to a 70% BD : 30% winterized petro diesel blend. 32F is a 
good deal below the cloud point of my BD. (You can check your BD by putting 
it in the fridge, check occassionally, read temp when it starts to cloud.) I 
drive an '82 Mercedes 300SD. I think it would pump jello.
 Last year I "winterized" my BD as described at JTF.
This year I have separated WVO with the lowest cloud point from WVO that 
clouds at high temps. When the temps go down, the stuff that clouds easily 
becomes heating fuel for my house ...  tank in basement, the other stuff 
becomes BD for my car ... outside in the cold.
 I actually like BD made from the WVO w. chicken fat. The car exhaust 
smells more like a barbeque than like french fries. My next 20 gal (76L) 
batch will have about 5 gal of bacon grease   solid, had to melt it. 
It'll go in the car. I sometimes go fishing w a friend early in the morning. 
He has requested bacon and egg exhaust. Maybe this next batch will fit the 
bill.
 Good luck w the WVO
 By the way, what do you get for a titration on it?

  Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO


> Tom,
>
> I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then 
> congelled
> again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks 
> like
> black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest
> brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point 
> in
> processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use? 
> At
> what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?
>
> Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?
>
> Thanks for your help.
> :-)
> Luke
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>>
>>Luke,
>>  If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have 
>> some
>>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>>excellent warm weather fuel.
>>
>> Of course, it might be water.
>>
>> Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the
>>dried
>>WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon
>>cooling it probably contains animal fat.
>> Tom
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM
>>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO
>>
>>
>> > The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it
>> > settles.  A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown 
>> > non-translucent
>> > layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black
>>solids
>> > on
>> > the bottom.  My question is the middle brown layer.  It seems - and I
>> > havent
>> > run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it.
>>Is
>> > it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off
>> > the
>> > water?
>> >
>> > :-)
>> > Luke
>> >
>> > _
>> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > ___
>> > Biofuel mailing list
>> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> >
>> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> >
>> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> > messages):
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>&g

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[WM LUKE MATHISEN]

Tom,

I heated to 170f as you suggested.  It became transluent and then congelled 
again, this time in three layers, a bottom layer (about 5%) that looks like 
black solids, then a layer of something white (also about 5%) and the rest 
brown goo.  But it looks like no water.  So chicken fat it is.  Any point in 
processing it seperately? Except to save the good stuff for winter use?  At 
what outside temp do I need to be conserned about BD 100 gelling?

Oh, and any idea what the white layer is?

Thanks for your help.
:-)
Luke


>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO
>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:50:56 -0400
>
>Luke,
>  If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some
>animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make
>excellent warm weather fuel.
>
> Of course, it might be water.
>
> Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the 
>dried
>WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon
>cooling it probably contains animal fat.
> Tom
>- Original Message -
>From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM
>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO
>
>
> > The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it
> > settles.  A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent
> > layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black 
>solids
> > on
> > the bottom.  My question is the middle brown layer.  It seems - and I
> > havent
> > run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it.  
>Is
> > it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off
> > the
> > water?
> >
> > :-)
> > Luke
> >
> > _
> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > 
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>

_
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[Thomas Kelly]

Luke,
 If your WVO was used to cook meat such as chicken, you will have some 
animal fat which may be causing the middle layer. It will still make 
excellent warm weather fuel.

Of course, it might be water.

Heat a small sample to get the water to drop out. Take some of the dried 
WVO and let it cool. If it remains clear, you had water. If it clouds upon 
cooling it probably contains animal fat.
Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "WM LUKE MATHISEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO


> The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it
> settles.  A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent
> layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids 
> on
> the bottom.  My question is the middle brown layer.  It seems - and I 
> havent
> run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it.  Is
> it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off 
> the
> water?
>
> :-)
> Luke
>
> _
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
>





> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
> 



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO

[doug swanson]

I've found that if I leave it in the settling tank longer, it will 
settle out even more. Smaller water droplets seem to take longer to sink 
and separate, (or conglomerate with other droplets) when encased in 
their oil surroundings. I'd use solar if I wanted to heat and retrieve 
the oil from it, but the last time I cleaned out the settling tank, I 
blended that layer with my compost pile, its temperature went up to 140 
F, and stayed there for a week. Happy bacteria! (I did mix saw dust and 
grass clippings with it to help absorb it, and make it easier to move 
around into the pile.)

Just heating that layer, not necessarily to water's boiling point will 
facilitate the separation though.

doug swanson



WM LUKE MATHISEN wrote:

> The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it 
> settles. A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown 
> non-translucent layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle 
> and then black solids on the bottom. My question is the middle brown 
> layer. It seems - and I havent run enough batches to be sure - that 
> the middle layer has water in it. Is it worth the energy - propane - 
> to process it when you have to boil off the water?
>
> :-)
> Luke
>
> _
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>

-- 
Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] WVO

[WM LUKE MATHISEN]

The waste veg oil (wvo)I collect has three different layers after it 
settles.  A clear (translucent) layer on top and a brown non-translucent 
layer - that doesn't want to filter - in the middle and then black solids on 
the bottom.  My question is the middle brown layer.  It seems - and I havent 
run enough batches to be sure - that the middle layer has water in it.  Is 
it worth the energy - propane - to process it when you have to boil off the 
water?


:-)
Luke

_
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Zeke Yewdall]

I do have some info on absorbance/emittance of various media, but not
easily at hand.  I'll try to look it up.

What I recall is that flat black paint is about 80% absorbance, and
also 80% emittance.  Not sure about the difference between different
types of black paint.  The selective surfaces used in most solar
thermal collectors (black chrome and such) aren't much different for
absorbance, but are much less emissive -- something like 15% or so... 
  I'll try to find the actual table of values I'm thinking of and
email it.

On 4/28/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Really?  I was under the impression 65% of the incoming solar radiation was
> IR and NIR.  Well I was thinking of putting flat black paint on copper pipes
> and having a sun tracking parabolic mirror beneath them. I was just
> wondering if anyone had any data on flat black paint types as the last post
> indicated they can have large variances in absorbtion.
>
>
>  Joe
>
>
>  bob allen wrote:
>
>  Howdy Joe, don't stop with IR, you want to absorb all wavelengths- there
> is more energy available in the visible/UV than the IR. Any flat black
> material will absorb all wavelengths (not counting high energy stuff
> like gamma rays). what you need is a material which not only absorbs,
> but also conducts the heat absorbed rather than radiating it away in the
> IR. (Wein's displacement)
>
> Joe Street wrote:
>
>
>  Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials,
> ie flat black paint types which are resonably good? I plan to do
> something with it one day but would like to make something myself of
> reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution.
>
> Joe
>
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>
>  Joe,
>
> In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels
> built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous
> difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low
> efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of
> sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to
> give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the
> coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very
> different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader
> in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They
> deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets. Before
> mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for
> water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched
> around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain, a joint project between
> technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was
> managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation
> work with the energy transmission program that we have.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
>  Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the
> roof. The are everywhere you look.
>
> Joe
>
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>
>
>  Joe,
>
> Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in
> total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15
> years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5
> years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast.
> Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of
> thermal solar systems also.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Zeke,
>
> Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use,
> I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where
> you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  snip
>
> Ever been to Mexico?
>
> Joe
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>  ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>  ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofue

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

Really?  I was under the impression 65% of the incoming solar radiation
was IR and NIR.  Well I was thinking of putting flat black paint on
copper pipes and having a sun tracking parabolic mirror beneath them. I
was just wondering if anyone had any data on flat black paint types as
the last post indicated they can have large variances in absorbtion.


Joe

bob allen wrote:

  Howdy Joe, don't stop with IR, you want to absorb all wavelengths- there 
is more energy available in the visible/UV than the IR.  Any flat black 
material will absorb all wavelengths (not counting high energy stuff 
like gamma rays). what you need is a material which not only absorbs, 
but also conducts the heat absorbed rather than radiating it away in the 
IR.  (Wein's displacement)

Joe Street wrote:
  
  
Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials, 
ie flat black paint types which are resonably good?  I plan to do 
something with it one day but would like to make something myself of 
reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution.

Joe

Hakan Falk wrote:


  Joe,

In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels 
built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous 
difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low 
efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of 
sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to 
give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the 
coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very 
different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader 
in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They 
deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets.  Before 
mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for 
water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched 
around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain,  a joint project between 
technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was 
managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation 
work with the energy transmission program that we have.

Hakan

At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote:
  
  
  
Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the 
roof.  The are everywhere you look.

Joe

Hakan Falk wrote:



  Joe,

Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in
total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15
years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5
years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast.
Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of
thermal solar systems also.

Hakan

At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote:



  
  
  
Hakan Falk wrote:





  Zeke,

Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use,
I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where
you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. .




  
  

snip

Ever been to Mexico?

Joe


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  
  
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  
  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  
  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  
  



_

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[bob allen]

Howdy Joe, don't stop with IR, you want to absorb all wavelengths- there 
is more energy available in the visible/UV than the IR.  Any flat black 
material will absorb all wavelengths (not counting high energy stuff 
like gamma rays). what you need is a material which not only absorbs, 
but also conducts the heat absorbed rather than radiating it away in the 
IR.  (Wein's displacement)

Joe Street wrote:
> Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials, 
> ie flat black paint types which are resonably good?  I plan to do 
> something with it one day but would like to make something myself of 
> reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution.
> 
> Joe
> 
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>> Joe,
>>
>> In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels 
>> built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous 
>> difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low 
>> efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of 
>> sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to 
>> give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the 
>> coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very 
>> different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader 
>> in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They 
>> deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets.  Before 
>> mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for 
>> water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched 
>> around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain,  a joint project between 
>> technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was 
>> managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation 
>> work with the energy transmission program that we have.
>>
>> Hakan
>>
>> At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote:
>>   
>>> Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the 
>>> roof.  The are everywhere you look.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> Hakan Falk wrote:
>>> 
 Joe,

 Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in
 total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15
 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5
 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast.
 Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of
 thermal solar systems also.

 Hakan

 At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote:



   
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>
> 
>> Zeke,
>>
>> Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use,
>> I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where
>> you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   
> snip
>
> Ever been to Mexico?
>
> Joe
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
> 


 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



   
>>> ___
>>> Biofuel mailing list
>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>
>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>>> messages):
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

Do you have any information on IR absorption of common black materials,
ie flat black paint types which are resonably good?  I plan to do
something with it one day but would like to make something myself of
reasonable efficiency rather than buying a turnkey solution.

Joe

Hakan Falk wrote:

  Joe,

In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels 
built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous 
difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low 
efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of 
sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to 
give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the 
coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very 
different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader 
in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They 
deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets.  Before 
mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for 
water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched 
around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain,  a joint project between 
technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was 
managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation 
work with the energy transmission program that we have.

Hakan

At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote:
  
  
Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the 
roof.  The are everywhere you look.

Joe

Hakan Falk wrote:


  Joe,

Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in
total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15
years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5
years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast.
Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of
thermal solar systems also.

Hakan

At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote:



  
  
Hakan Falk wrote:




  Zeke,

Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use,
I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where
you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. .




  

snip

Ever been to Mexico?

Joe


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Hakan Falk]

he
> > > > electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
> > > > would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
> > > > and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
> > > > now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
> > > > however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
> > > > with oil, than with electricity.
> > > >
> > > > Hakan
> > > >
> > > > At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
> > > > or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
> > > > efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
> > > > mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
> > > > manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> > > > about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> > > > a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> > > > close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> > > > careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> > > > area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> > > > several low density heaters to speed things up.
> > > >
> > > > Joe
> > > >
> > > > Jason & Katie wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> > > > solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and 
> screen it out?
> > > > thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard 
> cider when my
> > > > grandma was a kid.
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To:
> > > > <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> > > > that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> > > > heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
> > > >
> > > >  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> > > > further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I 
> see on JtF is
> > > > variations on heating and settling.
> > > >
> > > >  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> > > > oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
> > > > water
> > > > tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
> > > > will
> > > > then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
> > > >
> > > >  An example video can be seen at
> > > >
> > > 
> <http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
> > > >
> > > >  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
> > > >
> > > >  Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >  Ryan Pope
> > > >
> > > > _
> > > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for 
> advice on how to
> > > > get there!
> > > >
> > > 
> <http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Biofuel mailing list
> > > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > > >
> > > 
> <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > > >
> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > >
> > > 
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Hakan Falk]

Joe,

In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels 
built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous 
difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low 
efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of 
sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to 
give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the 
coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very 
different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader 
in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They 
deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets.  Before 
mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for 
water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched 
around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain,  a joint project between 
technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was 
managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation 
work with the energy transmission program that we have.

Hakan

At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote:
>Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the 
>roof.  The are everywhere you look.
>
>Joe
>
>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>
>>Joe,
>>
>>Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in
>>total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15
>>years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5
>>years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast.
>>Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of
>>thermal solar systems also.
>>
>>Hakan
>>
>>At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>>
>>>

Zeke,

Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use,
I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where
you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. .




>>>
>>>snip
>>>
>>>Ever been to Mexico?
>>>
>>>Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>Biofuel mailing list
>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>
>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>>>messages):
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Sean Chadwell]

arctic and can let good old
> > > mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
> > > manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> > > about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> > > a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> > > close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> > > careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> > > area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> > > several low density heaters to speed things up.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > Jason & Katie wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> > > solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
> > > thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
> > > grandma was a kid.
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To:
> > > <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
> > > Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> > > that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> > > heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
> > >
> > >  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> > > further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is
> > > variations on heating and settling.
> > >
> > >  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> > > oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
> > > water
> > > tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
> > > will
> > > then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
> > >
> > >  An example video can be seen at
> > > 
> > <http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
> > >
> > >  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
> > >
> > >  Thanks,
> > >
> > >  Ryan Pope
> > >
> > > _
> > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
> > > get there!
> > > 
> > <http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Biofuel mailing list
> > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > > 
> > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > 
> > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > > messages):
> > > 
> > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Biofuel mailing list
> > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > > 
> > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > 
> > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
> > > (50,000 messages):
> > > 
> > <http://www.mail-

[Biofuel] wvo-water seperation: coalescer media

[greg Kelly]

If you are after the suspended particles of water primarily, this link has "socks" that absorb water but not oil. Maybe if the suspended stuff was absorbed with something like these, heat and vacuum in much smaller quantities could be used to finish the task.     http://www.newpig.com/en_US/main.jhtml?page=onlineCatalog/0062.html     Greg Kelly___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. 
The are everywhere you look.

Joe

Hakan Falk wrote:

  Joe,

Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in 
total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 
years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 
years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. 
Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of 
thermal solar systems also.

Hakan

At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote:


  
  
Hakan Falk wrote:



  Zeke,

Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use,
I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where
you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. .



  

snip

Ever been to Mexico?

Joe


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Mike Weaver]

Up in New Hampshire most of the year my friends keep their food in the 
pantry - which is outside. Only use the fridge in the Summer.
My Granma had a root celler - worked fine - she kept preserves in it.

Jason & Katie wrote:

>thats what i meant when i said "the old folks did it" , grandma frieburg 
>never had a freezer, they left buckets of apple beer on the porch in the 
>winter.
>- Original Message - 
>From: Joe Street
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:16 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
>
>
>Getting it really cold means removing heat.  Whether you remove heat or add 
>heat it takes time and energy.  Adding heat would be a more efficient 
>process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do 
>the work for you.  BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a 
>woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel.  It 
>says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process.  An 
>electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as 
>anything I can imagine.  Just be careful about heat density.  Too much power 
>confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. 
>Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up.
>
>Joe
>
>Jason & Katie wrote:
>
>what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
>solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
>thats how the old folks  used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
>grandma was a kid.
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
>
>
>
> I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
>that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
>heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>
>  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
>further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I see on JtF is
>variations on heating and settling.
>
> If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
>oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
>water
>tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
>will
>then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>
> An example video can be seen at
>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
>
>  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
>
> Thanks,
>
>Ryan Pope
>
>_
>On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
>get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>  
>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Jason & Katie]

thats what i meant when i said "the old folks did it" , grandma frieburg 
never had a freezer, they left buckets of apple beer on the porch in the 
winter.
- Original Message - 
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media


Getting it really cold means removing heat.  Whether you remove heat or add 
heat it takes time and energy.  Adding heat would be a more efficient 
process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do 
the work for you.  BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a 
woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel.  It 
says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process.  An 
electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as 
anything I can imagine.  Just be careful about heat density.  Too much power 
confined to too small an area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. 
Better to use several low density heaters to speed things up.

Joe

Jason & Katie wrote:

what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
thats how the old folks  used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
grandma was a kid.
- Original Message - 
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media



 I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.

  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I see on JtF is
variations on heating and settling.

 If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.

 An example video can be seen at
http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm

  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.

 Thanks,

Ryan Pope

_
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006





___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.0/325 - Release Date: 4/26/2006 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Hakan Falk]

Joe,

Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in 
total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 
years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 
years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. 
Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of 
thermal solar systems also.

Hakan

At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote:


>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
> >Zeke,
> >
> >Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use,
> >I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where
> >you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. .
> >
> >
> >
>snip
>
>Ever been to Mexico?
>
>Joe
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Zeke Yewdall]

erated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I
> >>>>>like nuclear).  Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be
> >>>>>the best option and I would still use an electric heater.  I have
> >>>>>obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the
> >>>>>main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input
> >>>>>energy to my process.  I want to determine the viability of running
> >>>>>it from a PV system.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Joe
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Hakan Falk wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Joe,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+%
> >>>>>>efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85%
> >>>>>>efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5
> >>>>>>times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the
> >>>>>>efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
> >>>>>>power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
> >>>>>>but we are not there yet.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Hakan
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
> >>>>>>>100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
> >>>>>>>meant.  You are right of course, electrical generation is not
> >>>>>>>without it's environmental impact, even hydro.  But what of your
> >>>>>>>emissions from burning??
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>J
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Hakan Falk wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Joe,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
> >>>>>>>>production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
> >>>>>>>>electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
> >>>>>>>>would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
> >>>>>>>>and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
> >>>>>>>>now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
> >>>>>>>>however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
> >>>>>>>>with oil, than with electricity.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Hakan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Getting it really cold means removing heat.  Whether you remove heat
> >>>>>>>>>or add heat it takes time and energy.  Adding heat would be a more
> >>>>>>>>>efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
> >>>>>>>>>mother nature do the work for you.  BTW someone recently passed me a
> >>>>>>>>>manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> >>>>>>>>>about making biodiesel.  It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> >>>>>>>>>a very inefficient process.  An electrical resistance heater is as
> >>>>>>>>>close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine.  Just be
> >>>>>>>>>careful about heat density.  Too much power confined to too small an
> >>>>>>>>>area will degrade the oil at the heater surface.  Better to use
> >>>>>>>>>several low density heaters to speed things up.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Hakan Falk]

ke a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85%
>>>>>>efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5
>>>>>>times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the
>>>>>>efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
>>>>>>power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
>>>>>>but we are not there yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hakan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
>>>>>>>100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
>>>>>>>meant.  You are right of course, electrical generation is not
>>>>>>>without it's environmental impact, even hydro.  But what of your
>>>>>>>emissions from burning??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>J
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Joe,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
>>>>>>>>production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
>>>>>>>>electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
>>>>>>>>would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
>>>>>>>>and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
>>>>>>>>now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
>>>>>>>>however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
>>>>>>>>with oil, than with electricity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hakan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Getting it really cold means removing heat.  Whether you remove heat
>>>>>>>>>or add heat it takes time and energy.  Adding heat would be a more
>>>>>>>>>efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
>>>>>>>>>mother nature do the work for you.  BTW someone recently passed me a
>>>>>>>>>manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
>>>>>>>>>about making biodiesel.  It says that heating oil for dewatering is
>>>>>>>>>a very inefficient process.  An electrical resistance heater is as
>>>>>>>>>close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine.  Just be
>>>>>>>>>careful about heat density.  Too much power confined to too small an
>>>>>>>>>area will degrade the oil at the heater surface.  Better to use
>>>>>>>>>several low density heaters to speed things up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Jason & Katie wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
>>>>>>>>>>solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and
>>>>>>>>>>screen it out?
>>>>>>>>>>thats how the old folks  used to make apple whiskey for hard
>>>>>>>>>>cider when my
>>>>>>>>>>grandma was a kid.
>>>>>>>>>>- Original Message -
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>>>>>To: 
>>>>>>>>>><mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Wate

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Zeke Yewdall]

 relation to the
> efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
> power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
> but we are not there yet.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>  Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
> 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
> meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not
> without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your
> emissions from burning??
>
> J
>
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>
>  Joe,
>
> Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
> production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
> electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
> would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
> and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
> now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
> however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
> with oil, than with electricity.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
>  Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
> or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
> efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
> mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
> manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> several low density heaters to speed things up.
>
> Joe
>
> Jason & Katie wrote:
>
>
>
>  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
> thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
> grandma was a kid.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>
>  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is
> variations on heating and settling.
>
>  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
> water
> tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
> will
> then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>
>  An example video can be seen at
> <http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
>
>  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  Ryan Pope
>
> _
> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
> get there!
> <http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <h

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

Hakan Falk wrote:

>Zeke,
>
>Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, 
>I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where 
>you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . 
>
>  
>
snip

Ever been to Mexico?

Joe


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

ist. It does
however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
with oil, than with electricity.

Hakan

At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:



 Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
several low density heaters to speed things up.

Joe

Jason & Katie wrote:



 what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
grandma was a kid.
- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:

Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media






 I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.

 Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is
variations on heating and settling.

 If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.

 An example video can be seen at
http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm

 Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.

 Thanks,

 Ryan Pope

_
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there!
http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
(50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





 ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




 ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

 inefficient process.  An electrical resistance heater is as
close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine.  Just be
careful about heat density.  Too much power confined to too small an
area will degrade the oil at the heater surface.  Better to use
several low density heaters to speed things up.

Joe

Jason & Katie wrote:





  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and
screen it out?
thats how the old folks  used to make apple whiskey for hard
cider when my
grandma was a kid.
- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media






  
  
 I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate 
water in WVO
that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.

  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I
see on JtF is
variations on heating and settling.

 If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.

 An example video can be seen at
http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm

  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.

 Thanks,

Ryan Pope

_
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for
advice on how to
get there!
http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release 
Date: 4/25/2006







  
  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
(50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/






  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
(50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives 
(50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
h

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Zeke Yewdall]

esel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> several low density heaters to speed things up.
>
> Joe
>
> Jason & Katie wrote:
>
>
>
>  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
> thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
> grandma was a kid.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>
>  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is
> variations on heating and settling.
>
>  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
> water
> tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
> will
> then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>
>  An example video can be seen at
> <http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
>
>  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  Ryan Pope
>
> _
> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
> get there!
> <http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
> (50,000 messages):
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>  ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@s

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

Electricity is more useful to me.

J

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

  I wouldn't be too sure about that.

500 gallon water tank weighs about 4,000lbs, and can store
200,000Btu's of heat (changing temperature from 185F to 135F.  This is
about 58kWh of thermal energy.

4,000lbs of lead acid batteries will also store about 56kWh with an
80% DOD.  But they will cost about $8,000.   Plus the fact that PV
modules are about $5/watt, whereas new solar thermal collectors are
under $1/watt.  Partly because PV is max about 18% efficient,
whereas even a half assed solar thermal collector can hit 50 or 60%
efficient.

For specific electrical heating needs like soldering irons or such,
electrical is the only way to go, but for bulk low temp heating, solar
thermal seems better.

Just my two cents (as a PV guy...)

On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
 Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more
conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot
water tank.

 Joe


 Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal?
That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and
can easily achieve the temperatures required.

On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places
electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada.
Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small
fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85%
numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude
burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite
significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is
generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like
nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best
option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus
watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor
so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine
the viability of running it from a PV system.

 Joe


 Hakan Falk wrote:

 Joe,

Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+%
efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85%
efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5
times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the
efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
but we are not there yet.

Hakan

At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:


 Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not
without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your
emissions from burning??

J

Hakan Falk wrote:


 Joe,

Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
with oil, than with electricity.

Hakan

At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:



 Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
several low density heaters to speed things up.

Joe

Jason & Katie wrote:



 what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
grandma was a kid.
- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:

Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media






 I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.

 Coal

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Zeke Yewdall]

ing it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
> > > or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
> > > efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
> > > mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
> > > manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> > > about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> > > a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> > > close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> > > careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> > > area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> > > several low density heaters to speed things up.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > Jason & Katie wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> > > solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
> > > thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
> > > grandma was a kid.
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To:
> > > <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
> > > Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> > > that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> > > heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
> > >
> > >  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> > > further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is
> > > variations on heating and settling.
> > >
> > >  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> > > oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
> > > water
> > > tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
> > > will
> > > then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
> > >
> > >  An example video can be seen at
> > >
> > <http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
> > >
> > >  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
> > >
> > >  Thanks,
> > >
> > >  Ryan Pope
> > >
> > > _
> > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
> > > get there!
> > >
> > <http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Biofuel mailing list
> > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > >
> > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > > messages):
> > >
> > <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Biofuel mailing list
> > > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > <http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > >
> > <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>ht

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Hakan Falk]

Zeke,

Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, 
I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where 
you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal 
thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost 
effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for 
itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this 
to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years.

The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get 
very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency.

Hakan


At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal?
>That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and
>can easily achieve the temperatures required.
>
>On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places
> > electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada.
> > Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small
> > fraction from other types of generation.   However even with your 70 -85%
> > numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude
> > burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite
> > significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is
> > generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like
> > nuclear).  Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best
> > option and I would still use an electric heater.  I have obtained a surplus
> > watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to 
> my reactor
> > so I can measure the total input energy to my process.  I want to determine
> > the viability of running it from a PV system.
> >
> >  Joe
> >
> >
> >  Hakan Falk wrote:
> >
> >  Joe,
> >
> > Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+%
> > efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85%
> > efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5
> > times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the
> > efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
> > power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
> > but we are not there yet.
> >
> > Hakan
> >
> > At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >  Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
> > 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
> > meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not
> > without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your
> > emissions from burning??
> >
> > J
> >
> > Hakan Falk wrote:
> >
> >
> >  Joe,
> >
> > Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
> > production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
> > electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
> > would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
> > and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
> > now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
> > however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
> > with oil, than with electricity.
> >
> > Hakan
> >
> > At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >  Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
> > or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
> > efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
> > mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
> > manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> > about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> > a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> > close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> > careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> > area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> > several low density heaters to speed things up.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > Jason & Katie wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> > solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
> > thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
> > gra

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Ryan Pope]

  Cool...and not cool.  There are other filters that are viscous oil 
compatible, the Kaydon site just had a really nice video of the process.  
These would work as a final step to ensure no wash water stayed with your 
final diesel product, though.


  Based on what the coalescer media seems to be, something homemade may 
work.  A few overlapping grids of any material that attracted water but not 
oil would achieve the same results.  If I come up with something, I'll 
share.


  Ryan



From: "Bill Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:36:44 -0500

Hi Ryan,

I live about 70 miles from Kaydon Filtration. I talked with them this
morning and they told me that this filter will not work on vegetable oil.
Sorry. Good thought though.

Bill Clark
- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media


>   I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>
>Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I see on JtF 
is

> variations on heating and settling.
>
>   If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
> tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
> then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>
>   An example video can be seen at
> http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
>
>Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
>
>   Thanks,
>
>  Ryan Pope
>
> _
> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how 
to

> get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



_
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Hakan Falk]

standing. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
>>>>>>now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
>>>>>>however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
>>>>>>with oil, than with electricity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hakan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Getting it really cold means removing heat.  Whether you remove heat
>>>>>>>or add heat it takes time and energy.  Adding heat would be a more
>>>>>>>efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
>>>>>>>mother nature do the work for you.  BTW someone recently passed me a
>>>>>>>manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
>>>>>>>about making biodiesel.  It says that heating oil for dewatering is
>>>>>>>a very inefficient process.  An electrical resistance heater is as
>>>>>>>close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine.  Just be
>>>>>>>careful about heat density.  Too much power confined to too small an
>>>>>>>area will degrade the oil at the heater surface.  Better to use
>>>>>>>several low density heaters to speed things up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jason & Katie wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
>>>>>>>>solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and
>>>>>>>>screen it out?
>>>>>>>>thats how the old folks  used to make apple whiskey for hard
>>>>>>>>cider when my
>>>>>>>>grandma was a kid.
>>>>>>>>- Original Message -
>>>>>>>>From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>>>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate 
>>>>>>>>> water in WVO
>>>>>>>>>that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
>>>>>>>>>heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
>>>>>>>>>further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I
>>>>>>>>>see on JtF is
>>>>>>>>>variations on heating and settling.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
>>>>>>>>>oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
>>>>>>>>>water
>>>>>>>>>tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
>>>>>>>>>will
>>>>>>>>>then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  An example video can be seen at
>>>>>>>>><http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ryan Pope
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_
>>>>>>>>>On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for
>>>>>>>>>advice on how

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Zeke Yewdall]

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

500 gallon water tank weighs about 4,000lbs, and can store
200,000Btu's of heat (changing temperature from 185F to 135F.  This is
about 58kWh of thermal energy.

4,000lbs of lead acid batteries will also store about 56kWh with an
80% DOD.  But they will cost about $8,000.   Plus the fact that PV
modules are about $5/watt, whereas new solar thermal collectors are
under $1/watt.  Partly because PV is max about 18% efficient,
whereas even a half assed solar thermal collector can hit 50 or 60%
efficient.

For specific electrical heating needs like soldering irons or such,
electrical is the only way to go, but for bulk low temp heating, solar
thermal seems better.

Just my two cents (as a PV guy...)

On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it more
> conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than in a hot
> water tank.
>
>  Joe
>
>
>  Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
>  If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal?
> That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and
> can easily achieve the temperatures required.
>
> On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>  Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places
> electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada.
> Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small
> fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85%
> numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude
> burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite
> significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is
> generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like
> nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best
> option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus
> watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor
> so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine
> the viability of running it from a PV system.
>
>  Joe
>
>
>  Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>  Joe,
>
> Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+%
> efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85%
> efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5
> times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the
> efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
> power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
> but we are not there yet.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>  Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
> 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
> meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not
> without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your
> emissions from burning??
>
> J
>
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>
>  Joe,
>
> Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
> production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
> electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
> would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
> and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
> now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
> however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
> with oil, than with electricity.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
>  Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
> or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
> efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
> mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
> manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> several low density heaters to speed things up.
>
> Joe
>
> Jason & Katie wrote:
>
>
>
>  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
> thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
> grandma was a kid.
&

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

om: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media





  
  
 I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.

  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I 
see on JtF is
variations on heating and settling.

 If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.

 An example video can be seen at
http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm

  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.

 Thanks,

Ryan Pope

_
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for 
advice on how to
get there!
http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006






  
  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
(50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives 
(50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 m

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

Maybe but I think I can keep the energy stored for longer and use it
more conveniently and for more purposes by storing it in batteries than
in a hot water tank.

Joe

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

  If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? 
That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and
can easily achieve the temperatures required.

On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
 Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places
electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada.
Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small
fraction from other types of generation.   However even with your 70 -85%
numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude
burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite
significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is
generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like
nuclear).  Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best
option and I would still use an electric heater.  I have obtained a surplus
watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor
so I can measure the total input energy to my process.  I want to determine
the viability of running it from a PV system.

 Joe


 Hakan Falk wrote:

 Joe,

Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+%
efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85%
efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5
times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the
efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
but we are not there yet.

Hakan

At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:


 Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not
without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your
emissions from burning??

J

Hakan Falk wrote:


 Joe,

Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
with oil, than with electricity.

Hakan

At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:



 Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
several low density heaters to speed things up.

Joe

Jason & Katie wrote:



 what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
grandma was a kid.
- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:

Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media






 I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.

 Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is
variations on heating and settling.

 If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.

 An example video can be seen at
http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm

 Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.

 Thanks,

 Ryan Pope

_
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there!
http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


___
Bio

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Bill Clark]

Hi Ryan,

I live about 70 miles from Kaydon Filtration. I talked with them this
morning and they told me that this filter will not work on vegetable oil.
Sorry. Good thought though.

Bill Clark
- Original Message - 
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media


>   I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>
>Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I see on JtF is
> variations on heating and settling.
>
>   If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
> tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
> then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>
>   An example video can be seen at
> http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
>
>Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
>
>   Thanks,
>
>  Ryan Pope
>
> _
> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
> get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Zeke Yewdall]

If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? 
That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and
can easily achieve the temperatures required.

On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places
> electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada.
> Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small
> fraction from other types of generation.   However even with your 70 -85%
> numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude
> burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite
> significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is
> generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like
> nuclear).  Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best
> option and I would still use an electric heater.  I have obtained a surplus
> watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor
> so I can measure the total input energy to my process.  I want to determine
> the viability of running it from a PV system.
>
>  Joe
>
>
>  Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>  Joe,
>
> Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+%
> efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85%
> efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5
> times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the
> efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the
> power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal,
> but we are not there yet.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>  Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically
> 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I
> meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not
> without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your
> emissions from burning??
>
> J
>
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>
>  Joe,
>
> Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
> production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
> electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
> would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
> and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
> now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
> however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
> with oil, than with electricity.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
>  Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat
> or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more
> efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
> mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a
> manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
> about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is
> a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as
> close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be
> careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an
> area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use
> several low density heaters to speed things up.
>
> Joe
>
> Jason & Katie wrote:
>
>
>
>  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
> solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
> thats how the old folks used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
> grandma was a kid.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
> that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
> heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>
>  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
> further or heard of its use in biodiesel production? All I see on JtF is
> variations on heating and settling.
>
>  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
> oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
> water
> tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
> will
> then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>
>  An examp

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Hakan Falk]

 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine.  Just be
>>>>>careful about heat density.  Too much power confined to too small an
>>>>>area will degrade the oil at the heater surface.  Better to use
>>>>>several low density heaters to speed things up.
>>>>>
>>>>>Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>Jason & Katie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
>>>>>>solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and 
>>>>>>screen it out?
>>>>>>thats how the old folks  used to make apple whiskey for hard 
>>>>>>cider when my
>>>>>>grandma was a kid.
>>>>>>- Original Message -
>>>>>>From: "Ryan Pope" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
>>>>>>Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
>>>>>>>that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
>>>>>>>heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
>>>>>>>further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I 
>>>>>>>see on JtF is
>>>>>>>variations on heating and settling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
>>>>>>>oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
>>>>>>>water
>>>>>>>tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
>>>>>>>will
>>>>>>>then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  An example video can be seen at
>>>>>>><http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm>http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ryan Pope
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_
>>>>>>>On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for 
>>>>>>>advice on how to
>>>>>>>get there!
>>>>>>><http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement>http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>___
>>>>>>>Biofuel mailing list
>>>>>>><mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>>>><http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>>>>>><http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>>>>>>messages):
>>>>>>><http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>___
>>>>>

Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media

[Joe Street]

Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places
electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in
Canada.  Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear
with a small fraction from other types of generation.   However even
with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or
glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the
atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I
live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I
am not saying that I like nuclear).  Local solar PV and storage systems
to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric
heater.  I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to
install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total
input energy to my process.  I want to determine the viability of
running it from a PV system.

Joe

Hakan Falk wrote:

  Joe,

Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% 
efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% 
efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 
times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the 
efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the 
power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, 
but we are not there yet.

Hakan

At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote:
  
  
Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 
100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I 
meant.  You are right of course, electrical generation is not 
without it's environmental impact, even hydro.  But what of your 
emissions from burning??

J

Hakan Falk wrote:


  Joe,

Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity
production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the
electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I
would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge
and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because
now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does
however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat
with oil, than with electricity.

Hakan

At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote:

  
  
Getting it really cold means removing heat.  Whether you remove heat
or add heat it takes time and energy.  Adding heat would be a more
efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old
mother nature do the work for you.  BTW someone recently passed me a
manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale
about making biodiesel.  It says that heating oil for dewatering is
a very inefficient process.  An electrical resistance heater is as
close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine.  Just be
careful about heat density.  Too much power confined to too small an
area will degrade the oil at the heater surface.  Better to use
several low density heaters to speed things up.

Joe

Jason & Katie wrote:



  what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the oil
solidifies, or the water freezes, whichever comes first and screen it out?
thats how the old folks  used to make apple whiskey for hard cider when my
grandma was a kid.
- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Pope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media




  
  
 I'm trying to think of alternate ways to reduce/eliminate water in WVO
that are both easy (i.e. passive) and don't involve the energy use of
heating a bulk volume of oil to near water BP.

  Coalescing media comes to mind, has anybody every looked into this
further or heard of its use in biodiesel production?  All I see on JtF is
variations on heating and settling.

 If you aren't familiar with coalescer media, it works because as the
oil-water mix is passed though the media, the small suspended drops of
water
tend to group together into larger and larger drops of free water that
will
then separate by gravity on the downstream side of the media.

 An example video can be seen at
http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/tech_video.htm

  Not sure on cost of the bulk media yet.

 Thanks,

Ryan Pope

_
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there!
http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sust