Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Terry Dyck]

Insight into a lot of this discussion could come from a popular book called: 
  Natural Cures "They" don't want you to know about.  By Kevin Trudeau

Terry Dyck


>From: Kurt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court
>Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:37:48 -0500
>
>Joe Street wrote:
> > I agree Kim;
> >
> > Doctors are not in the business of health, they are in the business of
> > treating disease.
> >
> > Joe
>
>That's my view of things, too. If something is immediately life
>threatening or obviously broken (Broken wrist and severe bronchitis come
>to my immediate recollection) then I'll go see a doctor about it.
>
>If it's a cold, minor infection, general blah-ness, muscle problems,
>diet issues... I'll tough them out myself and mess with solving my own
>problems.
>
>Certainly cheaper, if nothing else, and I'm probably healthier for just
>bulling through the common illnesses everyone gets.
>
>-Kurt
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Michele Stephenson]

Zeke,

congrats on the courage.  i did this myself almost three years ago.  i had a 
job at which i could have retired at 50, but was miserable.  i felt myself 
changing for the worse.  my attitude was dark and cynical and i felt trapped 
asking always, "is this all there is?!".  i justified my days by saying, 
"when i retire i'll be able to all the things i ever wanted."  i was alive, 
but not living so i walked.  i took a year off completely, went to grad 
school, and gained perspective.  2.5 years later i started back to work.  i 
moved to small town in the hill country of Texas (i call it the Mayberry of 
the hill country).  i walk to work, don't have to lock my doors, started my 
veggie car project and many other projects.

i am happy for your soul and your way will become apparent once you have 
purged.
good luck and do something you like and enjoy everyday.  tomorrow isn't 
promised.

michele


From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:33:05 +0900

Hello Zeke

Sympathies.

 >Recently, I've found myself unable to concentrate, depressed, having
 >trouble sleeping, being  unmotivated, constantly being angry.   I'm
 >sure that if I went to see a doctor about this, he or she could
 >prescribe something to try to help.  This is "civilized society's"
 >response to this condition.  Go talk to a psychiatrist and we'll drug
 >you up to make you forget about it.  And I'm not denying that many
 >people with depression do have chemical imbalances.  But, I actually
 >know what causes me to feel this way -- my dead end office job which
 >pays me crap, has no flexibility, in a place with no natural light,
 >and no plants (actually, my two desk plants died, and I feel like I'm
 >on the way out next).  A few days off, in the mountains (where I don't
 >even have a flush toilet, oh the horror), and I feel like a real
 >person again.  Till Monday when I have to drag myself back to the
 >office.  Civilized society sees my job as perfectly normal, and thus
 >cannot solve the root of the problem.  However, they can drug me up to
 >make me accept it -- and yes, I know alot of people who have done
 >exactly this.  And many more who self medicate with non-prescription
 >drugs such as alchohol, marijuana, etc...  I know how to stay healthy
 >-- but I have to be willing to buck societal norms in order to do it.
 >
 >I'm quitting the job on Friday.  Not exactly sure what's next  but
 >it'll be something more in balance with being a human instead of a
 >robot.

You just have to be making the right move, no matter what comes of
it. Stick to your guns and I'm sure you'll never regret it. It's not
just an article of faith that there has to be a way forward for a
sane human making a sane and human decision about how to live their
life in a sane and human way.

Best of good fortune to you Zeke.

Regards

Keith



 >On 2/28/06, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > Greetings,
 > > Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take
 > > drugs, daily?
 > >
 > > I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that 
knows
 > > anything about diet.  And no, not just rural doctors.  If the doctors 
are
 > > so great, then why is our health care so bad?  Sorry, but it is not
 > > horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet 
that
 > > have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know.  I
 > > assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of 
the
 > > medical school teaching.
 > >
 > > Bright Blessings,
 > > Kim
 > >
 > > At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
 > > >Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
 > > > > Doctors in this country tell
 > > > > people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.
 > > > > Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with 
diabetes.
 > > >
 > > >Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete 
horseshit.
 > > >
 > > >My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,
 > > >heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos
 > > >outside the mainstream for doing so.
 > > >
 > > >Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of
 >adult obesity.
 > > >
 > > >http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf
 > > >
 > > >Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:
 > > >
 >

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Michele Stephenson]

yes, i'm interested in hypnosis... interested in dispelling misconceptions 
and learning more about what's inside.

thanks


From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:31:32 -0800 (PST)

I have discovered hypnosis.
   I am extremely enthusiastic about it.
   And yes - western mental health is about getting zombied out. Did you 
know all those shooters such as Columbine were prozac kiddies? Press didnt 
say much about that fact - not pc. The press also doesnt talk about the 
prozac suicide rate in the first 2 months of medicating.
   If you want info on hypnosis let me know

   Kirk


Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   Recently, I've found myself unable to concentrate, depressed, having
trouble sleeping, being unmotivated, constantly being angry. I'm
sure that if I went to see a doctor about this, he or she could
prescribe something to try to help. This is "civilized society's"
response to this condition. Go talk to a psychiatrist and we'll drug
you up to make you forget about it. And I'm not denying that many
people with depression do have chemical imbalances. But, I actually
know what causes me to feel this way -- my dead end office job which
pays me crap, has no flexibility, in a place with no natural light,
and no plants (actually, my two desk plants died, and I feel like I'm
on the way out next). A few days off, in the mountains (where I don't
even have a flush toilet, oh the horror), and I feel like a real
person again. Till Monday when I have to drag myself back to the
office. Civilized society sees my job as perfectly normal, and thus
cannot solve the root of the problem. However, they can drug me up to
make me accept it -- and yes, I know alot of people who have done
exactly this. And many more who self medicate with non-prescription
drugs such as alchohol, marijuana, etc... I know how to stay healthy
-- but I have to be willing to buck societal norms in order to do it.

I'm quitting the job on Friday. Not exactly sure what's next but
it'll be something more in balance with being a human instead of a
robot.



On 2/28/06, Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
 > Greetings,
 > Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take
 > drugs, daily?
 >
 > I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that 
knows
 > anything about diet. And no, not just rural doctors. If the doctors are
 > so great, then why is our health care so bad? Sorry, but it is not
 > horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet 
that
 > have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know. I
 > assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of the
 > medical school teaching.
 >
 > Bright Blessings,
 > Kim
 >
 > At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
 > >Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
 > > > Doctors in this country tell
 > > > people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.
 > > > Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.
 > >
 > >Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.
 > >
 > >My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,
 > >heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos
 > >outside the mainstream for doing so.
 > >
 > >Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult 
obesity.
 > >
 > >http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf
 > >
 > >Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:
 > >
 > >http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp
 > >
 > >Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of
 > >current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping
 > >generalization to be overly broad.
 > >
 > >jh
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >___
 > >Biofuel mailing list
 > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 > 
 >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 > >
 > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 > >
 > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
 > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 >
 >
 >
 > ___
 > Biofuel mailing list
 > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Joe Street]

Hey I can chime in on this one.

I know a guy who fabricates micro sized atomic mass spectrometers and
as I pointed out in the thread about the micro biodiesel reactor there
are non linear effects to reducing the size of reaction chambers that
are seen in sensitivity in his device that I speculated might come into
play with the biodiesel cell as well.  His mass spec turns out to be so
sensitive that he can estimate the number of amalgam fillings I have in
my mouth by sampling the air I exhale and comparing it to the air I
inhale and he can easily detect mercury from the amalgams in my exhaled
breath!!  There is plenty of information on the toxicity and toxic
effects of mercury vapour out there.  (Actually liquid mercury is not
so dangerous, it is the vapour and mercury compounds that are
responsible for all the hysteria). Well I don't know if the amount of
vapour coming out of silver amalgam at body temperature is enough to
cause health effects over long term but the point is there is SOME.  Of
course there must be a down side to the alternatives also so now the
question becomes which is worse?  I have also been told that having
amalgam drilled out exposes one to more mercury vapour than leaving
them alone which might be true.  At the time amalgam was initially used
it was thought to be very safe, just as the epoxy materials of today
are assumed to be, but who knows what is in them and what will be found
out down the road??  Pull them out I say, and be done with it. 
Tequilla and vise grips work well for this. Last I heard there were no
ill effects of having a gap in your smile other than a tenfold increase
in sexual frustration.hmm is that worse than death by amalgam?

Joe

bob allen wrote:

  the subject at hand:  is there evidence to support the claim that dental 
amalgams are poisoning people, and have been for a century. I suggested 
that their is scant evidence to support the claim. I'm not saying that 
it isn't a reasonable hypothesis.   I am being neither quarrelsome nor 
blind, and I certainly don't intend to obfuscate.  If it was my use of 
literary directives that confuse you, I apologize. Also, I am not trying 
to dominate an argument, nor hide the truth, but rather find it.

I checked your reference and indeed there are numerous peer reviewed 
works cited.  good.  I will take them one at a time as to what I can 
glean from them. I will focus only on those that relate to toxic effects 
of dental amalgam.  A bunch of them address the broader issue of Hg in 
the environment, or other forms of Hg which as noted have wildly 
different toxicities.


"Dental Mercury Impairs Kidney Function"

certainly you want to lead with strong data.  This is a good paper, the 
data used controls and showed that over the short term- 60 days -that 
there were minor changes in kidney function, which could be explained by 
   the mercury interfering with tubular reabsorption.

However, it was also noted that :  "Concentrations of K, urea, 
Y-glutamyl transpeptidase, alkaline phosphatase, and total protein did 
not change significantly form (sic)0 to 60 days in urine. Plasma levels 
of Na, K, urea, and albumin remained unchanged form 0 to 60 days after 
amalgam. Renal histology remained normal in amalgam-treated animals. It 
is concluded that amalgam Hg levels in kidney are sufficient to 
significantly reduce the rate of inulin clearance by non defined 
mechanisms and that electrolyte patterns in urine are consistent with 
impaired renal tubular reabsorption.

Could one extend this result to humans, and over a much longer period of 
time?  I bet the Hg release is greatest after initially installing the 
amalgam and decreases steadily over time to reach some steady state-  is 
that release significant?  the study has it limits.  Another important 
factor is sheep chew a heck of a lot more than people.  The bruxation 
surely causes release of more mercury than would be observed in non-cud 
chewers.



  Dental Mercury Provokes an Increase in Oral and Intestinal Floras

What this paper says is that low concentrations of Hg result in Hg 
resistant bacteria in vivo.  No surprise there. The authors then go on 
to say the risk is that antibiotic resistant genes may share the same 
plasmid as the gene for Hg resistance.  Hence stimulation of Hg 
resistance may increase the transmission of antibiotic resistance in 
various microflora.

It would seem easy enough to examine the microflora of those with and 
without dental amalgams, and compare levels of antibiotic resistance.

more later.














irk McLoren wrote:
  
  
* *
*vide. *"Look" or "see." This phrase refers the reader to an earlier 
statement or definition within the body of
the essay. The must common uses are "*vide *63" (which means "see page 
sixty-three"), *v.s/. vide supra/*
("see earlier" or "look above on this page") and *v.i. /vide infra 
/*("See below" or "Look below"). Don't
confuse v.s. (/vide supra/) with vs. (/versus/).
 
 
You as

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

That suks. I had hoped I was safe as I like spinach soufle. The article I read said that calcium oxalate was not absorbed as wellso milk was a good additive. I actually must say I have no idea in this instance and thank you for the info. Looks like spinach is off the list for me as I have only 1 marginal kidney left. Lost the other to cancer and the remaining one is hammered after years of hypertension.     As an interesting aside I found little relief with blood pressure meds as beta blockers give me arrythmia, ACE inhibitor unfortunately works backwards for me and reduces renal function for me.The best solution for me has been 2 grams of potassium a day. I dont know if this is safe for everyone as I lose potassium faster than is normal.Too much potassium is toxic as well     Kirk bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Howdy Kirk, I am really not trying to be a pest here, but the discussion of oxalate doesn't make sense. Assuming that cooking spinach in milk forms calcium oxalate, it would be converted back into free oxalic acid in the stomach. once in the blood it is filtered in the kidney, but as the oxalic acid moves down the tubule of the kidney, and the medium becomes more alkaline, calcium oxalate reforms, forming crystals, which literally obstructs or even pokes holes in the tubule. this can lead to kidney failure. Ie, oxalic acid is toxic due to calcium oxalate crystals forming in the tubule of the kidney.see for example the msds for oxalic acid:http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htmOxalic acid is corrosive to tissue. When ingested, oxalic acid removes calcium from the blood. Kidney damage can be expected as the calcium is removed from the blood in the form of calcium
 oxalate. The calcium oxalate then obstructs the kidney tubules.see also:http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtmlToxicitySheer toxicity--actual poisoning--from ingested oxalic acid is wildly unlikely. The only foodstuff that contains oxalic acid at concentrations high enough to be an actual toxicity risk is the leaves (not the stalks, which is what one normally eats) of the rhubarb plant. For just about every other foodstuff, the risk--if any--is not immediate toxicity but a contribution to the development of oxalate crystals.Kirk McLoren wrote:> Certainly more bruxation should increase release but I think what is > chewed may be more significant. I noticed a spinach salad left my > amalgam fillings shiny and new appearing and sheep or other farm animals > seldom eat spinach salads. Since the fillings were "cleaned" I think a > lot of material was ingested. Perhaps it was
 the oxalic acid in the > spinach. I know health advocates recommend spinach be cooked with milk > and not eaten raw as they claim oxalic acid is turned into calcium > oxalate by the process thus negating most of the harmful effects.> > Kirk> > */allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:> > the subject at hand: is there evidence to support the claim that dental> amalgams are poisoning people, and have been for a century. I suggested> that their is scant evidence to support the claim. I'm not saying that> it isn't a reasonable hypothesis. I am being neither quarrelsome nor> blind, and I certainly don't intend to obfuscate. If it was my use of> literary directives that confuse you, I apologize. Also, I am not> trying> to dominate an argument, nor hide the truth, but rather find it.> > I checked your reference and indeed there are numerous peer reviewed> works
 cited. good. I will take them one at a time as to what I can> glean from them. I will focus only on those that relate to toxic> effects> of dental amalgam. A bunch of them address the broader issue of Hg in> the environment, or other forms of Hg which as noted have wildly> different toxicities.> > > "Dental Mercury Impairs Kidney Function"> > certainly you want to lead with strong data. This is a good paper, the> data used controls and showed that over the short term- 60 days -that> there were minor changes in kidney function, which could be> explained by> the mercury interfering with tubular reabsorption.> > However, it was also noted that : "Concentrations of K, urea,> Y-glutamyl transpeptidase, alkaline phosphatase, and total protein did> not change significantly form (sic)0 to 60 days in urine. Plasma levels> of Na, K, urea, and albumin remained
 unchanged form 0 to 60 days after> amalgam. Renal histology remained normal in amalgam-treated animals. It> is concluded that amalgam Hg levels in kidney are sufficient to> significantly reduce the rate of inulin clearance by non defined> mechanisms and that electrolyte patterns in urine are consistent with> impaired renal tubular reabsorption.> > Could one extend this result to humans, and over a much longer> period of> time? I bet the Hg release is greatest after initially installing the> amalgam and decreases steadily over time to reach some steady state- is> that release significant? the study has it limits. Another important> factor is sheep chew a heck of a

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[bob allen]

Howdy Kirk, I am really not trying to be a pest here, but the discussion of 
oxalate doesn't make 
sense.  Assuming that cooking spinach in milk forms calcium oxalate, it would 
be converted back into 
free oxalic acid in the stomach. once in the blood it is filtered in the 
kidney, but as the oxalic 
acid moves down the tubule of the kidney, and the medium becomes more alkaline, 
calcium oxalate 
reforms, forming crystals, which literally obstructs or even pokes holes in the 
tubule.  this can 
lead to kidney failure.  Ie, oxalic acid is toxic due to calcium oxalate 
crystals forming in the 
tubule of the kidney.


see for example the msds for oxalic acid:

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm


Oxalic acid is corrosive to tissue. When ingested, oxalic acid removes calcium 
from the blood. 
Kidney damage can be expected as the calcium is removed from the blood in the 
form of calcium 
oxalate. The calcium oxalate then obstructs the kidney tubules.

see also:

http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml

Toxicity

Sheer toxicity--actual poisoning--from ingested oxalic acid is wildly unlikely. 
The only foodstuff 
that contains oxalic acid at concentrations high enough to be an actual 
toxicity risk is the leaves 
(not the stalks, which is what one normally eats) of the rhubarb plant. For 
just about every other 
foodstuff, the risk--if any--is not immediate toxicity but a contribution to 
the development of 
oxalate crystals.





Kirk McLoren wrote:
> Certainly more bruxation should increase release but I think what is 
> chewed may be more significant. I noticed a spinach salad left my 
> amalgam fillings shiny and new appearing and sheep or other farm animals 
> seldom eat spinach salads. Since the fillings were "cleaned" I think a 
> lot of material was ingested. Perhaps it was the oxalic acid in the 
> spinach. I know health advocates recommend spinach be cooked with milk 
> and not eaten raw as they claim oxalic acid is turned  into calcium 
> oxalate by the process thus negating most of the harmful effects.
>  
> Kirk
>  
> */allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> the subject at hand: is there evidence to support the claim that dental
> amalgams are poisoning people, and have been for a century. I suggested
> that their is scant evidence to support the claim. I'm not saying that
> it isn't a reasonable hypothesis. I am being neither quarrelsome nor
> blind, and I certainly don't intend to obfuscate. If it was my use of
> literary directives that confuse you, I apologize. Also, I am not
> trying
> to dominate an argument, nor hide the truth, but rather find it.
> 
> I checked your reference and indeed there are numerous peer reviewed
> works cited. good. I will take them one at a time as to what I can
> glean from them. I will focus only on those that relate to toxic
> effects
> of dental amalgam. A bunch of them address the broader issue of Hg in
> the environment, or other forms of Hg which as noted have wildly
> different toxicities.
> 
> 
> "Dental Mercury Impairs Kidney Function"
> 
> certainly you want to lead with strong data. This is a good paper, the
> data used controls and showed that over the short term- 60 days -that
> there were minor changes in kidney function, which could be
> explained by
> the mercury interfering with tubular reabsorption.
> 
> However, it was also noted that : "Concentrations of K, urea,
> Y-glutamyl transpeptidase, alkaline phosphatase, and total protein did
> not change significantly form (sic)0 to 60 days in urine. Plasma levels
> of Na, K, urea, and albumin remained unchanged form 0 to 60 days after
> amalgam. Renal histology remained normal in amalgam-treated animals. It
> is concluded that amalgam Hg levels in kidney are sufficient to
> significantly reduce the rate of inulin clearance by non defined
> mechanisms and that electrolyte patterns in urine are consistent with
> impaired renal tubular reabsorption.
> 
> Could one extend this result to humans, and over a much longer
> period of
> time? I bet the Hg release is greatest after initially installing the
> amalgam and decreases steadily over time to reach some steady state- is
> that release significant? the study has it limits. Another important
> factor is sheep chew a heck of a lot more than people. The bruxation
> surely causes release of more mercury than would be observed in non-cud
> chewers.
> 
> 
> 
> Dental Mercury Provokes an Increase in Oral and Intestinal Floras
> 
> What this paper says is that low concentrations of Hg result in Hg
> resistant bacteria in vivo. No surprise there. The authors then go on
> to say the risk is that antibiotic resistant genes may share the same
> plasmid as the gene for Hg resistance. Hence stimulation of Hg
> resistance may increase the transmission of antibiotic resistance in

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Keith Addison]

>   I totally agree.
>
>John

And me with you John. Thanks for sorting that out.

>However, that is a hard road to travel.

Have to though, like it or not. So many people have lost their 
volition and their independence, and the skills that go with them. 
It's not their choice, they're victims. It's not that they give up 
control so much as that it's stolen from them. Maybe they need some 
sort of drying out program, like kids who've been rescued from the 
clutches of evil mind-twisting cults or something. This puts it quite 
well:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11972.htm
The Making of a Zombie Culture
By Charles Sullivan
02/17/06 "ICH"

There's lots in the archives about spin, good resources. Waking 
everybody up though... I think maybe never before have so many people 
been awake, and it's spreading, but on the other hand the one's 
who're still asleep are very asleep indeed.

But there's no dire need to wake them really. Society has to change 
and change fast, but that's not a matter of a democratic majority 
being awake enough to do something about it. It's small minorities 
that create the changes that enable society to meet the challenges it 
faces, the "creative minority", who're undoubtedly wide-awake right 
now, very much so.

Best

Keith


>Keith wrote:
> >What's the difference? John Morris said it's a matter of market
> >supply and demand: "If people demanded health, that same system
> >would provide health." No it wouldn't, that's not on the table.
> >What's missing from this glad view of the inevitable democratic
> >outcome of market mechanisms is the billions of dollars spent very
> >effectively on telling people what to demand and only providing
> >options that are deemed profitable.
>
>   I think you missed the point of what I was saying because we are in
>agreement on what you said later in your message. My point is not
>that the system is healthy or that capitalism is ever likely to
>provide a healthy system for the masses. My point was that the system
>is designed to make money, not health. However, I and my family and
>friends are living proof that one can have health in the midst of
>this unhealthy system. There is hope for the individual even if the
>masses are being destroyed. Where there is hope for the individual,
>there could be hope for the masses if the masses could become
>individuals. If the masses refused to be duped by those who promise
>health but deliver only bills and poisons, the shams would look
>elsewhere for an easy mark. Eventually, they would die of starvation.
>However, that is a hard road to travel.
>
> >You don't really need to persuade doctors, they can be useful
> >anyway, you can often get information you need from them, as well as
> >some appropriate treatment, as long as it's you who's making the
> >decisions and you're informed enough to do that.
>
>   That is exactly my point. If we give up control and ask others to
>make the decisions for us, they will make decisions that are right
>for them, but not necessarily right for us.
>
> >  Alternative healthcare is available for those making their own
> >choices, but it's still limited. It does constitute a real
> >alternative but it's embattled and splintered as a result of being
> >marginalised and underresourced, it's difficult to figure out what's
> >useful and what's not.
>
>   My view of alternative health care is not much more generous than
>my view of Western health care. There are plenty of people out there
>willing to sell you a handful of air. When using alternative health
>care, you still have to be informed; you still have to make the
>decisions.
>
> >People have to take the responsibility themselves and most people
> >don't like that. They're heavily encouraged not to like it. But it's
> >the first step towards real health. Health education councils etc
> >often say that too.
>
>   I totally agree.
>
>John
>--
>John Morris
>Editide
>Editing and Graphic Design
>1350 VT Rte 232
>Marshfield, VT 05658
>
>888-259-8216 within the USA
>802-426-2017 outside the USA
>802-426-2017 fax
>
>http://www.editide.us
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Andres Secco]

I agree with joe´s comment.
Is the plain truth and so all over the civilized 
world were doctor title is a way to become rich. 
At least in south america is so.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:04 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" 
  Busted in Court
  I agree Kim;Doctors are 
  not in the business of health, they are in the business of treating 
  disease.Joe

Visita www.tutopia.com 
y comienza a navegar más rápido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet 
para todos. 

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

Certainly more bruxation should increase release but I think what is chewed may be more significant. I noticed a spinach salad left my amalgam fillings shiny and new appearing and sheep or other farm animals seldom eat spinach salads. Since the fillings were "cleaned" I think a lot of material was ingested. Perhaps it was the oxalic acid in the spinach. I know health advocates recommend spinach be cooked with milk and not eaten raw as they claim oxalic acid is turned  into calcium oxalate by the process thus negating most of the harmful effects.      Kirk     allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  the subject at hand: is there evidence to support the claim that dental amalgams are poisoning people, and have been for a century. I suggested that their is scant evidence to support the claim.
 I'm not saying that it isn't a reasonable hypothesis. I am being neither quarrelsome nor blind, and I certainly don't intend to obfuscate. If it was my use of literary directives that confuse you, I apologize. Also, I am not trying to dominate an argument, nor hide the truth, but rather find it.I checked your reference and indeed there are numerous peer reviewed works cited. good. I will take them one at a time as to what I can glean from them. I will focus only on those that relate to toxic effects of dental amalgam. A bunch of them address the broader issue of Hg in the environment, or other forms of Hg which as noted have wildly different toxicities."Dental Mercury Impairs Kidney Function"certainly you want to lead with strong data. This is a good paper, the data used controls and showed that over the short term- 60 days -that there were minor changes in kidney function, which could be explained by the
 mercury interfering with tubular reabsorption.However, it was also noted that : "Concentrations of K, urea, Y-glutamyl transpeptidase, alkaline phosphatase, and total protein did not change significantly form (sic)0 to 60 days in urine. Plasma levels of Na, K, urea, and albumin remained unchanged form 0 to 60 days after amalgam. Renal histology remained normal in amalgam-treated animals. It is concluded that amalgam Hg levels in kidney are sufficient to significantly reduce the rate of inulin clearance by non defined mechanisms and that electrolyte patterns in urine are consistent with impaired renal tubular reabsorption.Could one extend this result to humans, and over a much longer period of time? I bet the Hg release is greatest after initially installing the amalgam and decreases steadily over time to reach some steady state- is that release significant? the study has it limits. Another important factor is sheep chew
 a heck of a lot more than people. The bruxation surely causes release of more mercury than would be observed in non-cud chewers.Dental Mercury Provokes an Increase in Oral and Intestinal FlorasWhat this paper says is that low concentrations of Hg result in Hg resistant bacteria in vivo. No surprise there. The authors then go on to say the risk is that antibiotic resistant genes may share the same plasmid as the gene for Hg resistance. Hence stimulation of Hg resistance may increase the transmission of antibiotic resistance in various microflora.It would seem easy enough to examine the microflora of those with and without dental amalgams, and compare levels of antibiotic resistance.more later.irk McLoren wrote:> > * *> *vide. *"Look" or "see." This phrase refers the reader to an earlier > statement or definition within the
 body of> the essay. The must common uses are "*vide *63" (which means "see page > sixty-three"), *v.s/. vide supra/*> ("see earlier" or "look above on this page") and *v.i. /vide infra > /*("See below" or "Look below"). Don't> confuse v.s. (/vide supra/) with vs. (/versus/).> > > You asked for references> amalgam.org has a plethora of published references.> Are you blind or just quarrelsome? Obfuscation does not become you.> Dominating an argument is obviously more important than the truth to you.> How sad especially in light of your position of authority with the youth.> > Kirk> > > */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:> > Howdy Kirk,> > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > We find that there is a lot of concern about mercury and burning> coal> > yet you advocate a mercury source that is much more concentrated> as
 not> > a demonstrable health problem.> > Environmental releases of Hg is not where we started. I agree whole> heartedly with you. I have done research on environmental Hg (one of my> project favorites- My students and I got to go fishing for sunfish,> then> we analyzed the flesh for mercury content- but that is another story)> > let's try to keep to our discussion. My response to you was to two> claims you made:> > " So what do other dentists think that are outside the liability issue> if American dentists ever admit they have poisoned people for a century"> > and> > "In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice> dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mout

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kurt]

Joe Street wrote:
> I agree Kim;
>
> Doctors are not in the business of health, they are in the business of 
> treating disease.
>
> Joe

That's my view of things, too. If something is immediately life 
threatening or obviously broken (Broken wrist and severe bronchitis come 
to my immediate recollection) then I'll go see a doctor about it.

If it's a cold, minor infection, general blah-ness, muscle problems, 
diet issues... I'll tough them out myself and mess with solving my own 
problems.

Certainly cheaper, if nothing else, and I'm probably healthier for just 
bulling through the common illnesses everyone gets.

-Kurt

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[bob allen]

the subject at hand:  is there evidence to support the claim that dental 
amalgams are poisoning people, and have been for a century. I suggested 
that their is scant evidence to support the claim. I'm not saying that 
it isn't a reasonable hypothesis.   I am being neither quarrelsome nor 
blind, and I certainly don't intend to obfuscate.  If it was my use of 
literary directives that confuse you, I apologize. Also, I am not trying 
to dominate an argument, nor hide the truth, but rather find it.

I checked your reference and indeed there are numerous peer reviewed 
works cited.  good.  I will take them one at a time as to what I can 
glean from them. I will focus only on those that relate to toxic effects 
of dental amalgam.  A bunch of them address the broader issue of Hg in 
the environment, or other forms of Hg which as noted have wildly 
different toxicities.


"Dental Mercury Impairs Kidney Function"

certainly you want to lead with strong data.  This is a good paper, the 
data used controls and showed that over the short term- 60 days -that 
there were minor changes in kidney function, which could be explained by 
   the mercury interfering with tubular reabsorption.

However, it was also noted that :  "Concentrations of K, urea, 
Y-glutamyl transpeptidase, alkaline phosphatase, and total protein did 
not change significantly form (sic)0 to 60 days in urine. Plasma levels 
of Na, K, urea, and albumin remained unchanged form 0 to 60 days after 
amalgam. Renal histology remained normal in amalgam-treated animals. It 
is concluded that amalgam Hg levels in kidney are sufficient to 
significantly reduce the rate of inulin clearance by non defined 
mechanisms and that electrolyte patterns in urine are consistent with 
impaired renal tubular reabsorption.

Could one extend this result to humans, and over a much longer period of 
time?  I bet the Hg release is greatest after initially installing the 
amalgam and decreases steadily over time to reach some steady state-  is 
that release significant?  the study has it limits.  Another important 
factor is sheep chew a heck of a lot more than people.  The bruxation 
surely causes release of more mercury than would be observed in non-cud 
chewers.



  Dental Mercury Provokes an Increase in Oral and Intestinal Floras

What this paper says is that low concentrations of Hg result in Hg 
resistant bacteria in vivo.  No surprise there. The authors then go on 
to say the risk is that antibiotic resistant genes may share the same 
plasmid as the gene for Hg resistance.  Hence stimulation of Hg 
resistance may increase the transmission of antibiotic resistance in 
various microflora.

It would seem easy enough to examine the microflora of those with and 
without dental amalgams, and compare levels of antibiotic resistance.

more later.














irk McLoren wrote:
> 
> * *
> *vide. *"Look" or "see." This phrase refers the reader to an earlier 
> statement or definition within the body of
> the essay. The must common uses are "*vide *63" (which means "see page 
> sixty-three"), *v.s/. vide supra/*
> ("see earlier" or "look above on this page") and *v.i. /vide infra 
> /*("See below" or "Look below"). Don't
> confuse v.s. (/vide supra/) with vs. (/versus/).
>  
>  
> You asked for references
> amalgam.org has a plethora of published references.
> Are you blind or just quarrelsome? Obfuscation does not become you.
> Dominating an argument is obviously more important than the truth to you.
> How sad especially in light of your position of authority with the youth.
>  
> Kirk
>  
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Howdy Kirk,
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  > We find that there is a lot of concern about mercury and burning
> coal
>  > yet you advocate a mercury source that is much more concentrated
> as not
>  > a demonstrable health problem.
> 
> Environmental releases of Hg is not where we started. I agree whole
> heartedly with you. I have done research on environmental Hg (one of my
> project favorites- My students and I got to go fishing for sunfish,
> then
> we analyzed the flesh for mercury content- but that is another story)
> 
> let's try to keep to our discussion. My response to you was to two
> claims you made:
> 
> " So what do other dentists think that are outside the liability issue
> if American dentists ever admit they have poisoned people for a century"
> 
> and
> 
> "In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice
> dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mouth (mercury
> amalgam"
> 
> 
> all I suggested is that I find no support in the literature for your
> claims- so give me some proof- if dental amalgams are really poisoning
> people for so long, then surely their is some epidemiological evidence.
> As to German Law- any Europeans out there to direct us to relevant
> legalese?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need to see

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[John Morris]

Keith wrote:
>What's the difference? John Morris said it's a matter of market 
>supply and demand: "If people demanded health, that same system 
>would provide health." No it wouldn't, that's not on the table. 
>What's missing from this glad view of the inevitable democratic 
>outcome of market mechanisms is the billions of dollars spent very 
>effectively on telling people what to demand and only providing 
>options that are deemed profitable.

   I think you missed the point of what I was saying because we are in 
agreement on what you said later in your message. My point is not 
that the system is healthy or that capitalism is ever likely to 
provide a healthy system for the masses. My point was that the system 
is designed to make money, not health. However, I and my family and 
friends are living proof that one can have health in the midst of 
this unhealthy system. There is hope for the individual even if the 
masses are being destroyed. Where there is hope for the individual, 
there could be hope for the masses if the masses could become 
individuals. If the masses refused to be duped by those who promise 
health but deliver only bills and poisons, the shams would look 
elsewhere for an easy mark. Eventually, they would die of starvation. 
However, that is a hard road to travel.

>You don't really need to persuade doctors, they can be useful 
>anyway, you can often get information you need from them, as well as 
>some appropriate treatment, as long as it's you who's making the 
>decisions and you're informed enough to do that.

   That is exactly my point. If we give up control and ask others to 
make the decisions for us, they will make decisions that are right 
for them, but not necessarily right for us.

>  Alternative healthcare is available for those making their own 
>choices, but it's still limited. It does constitute a real 
>alternative but it's embattled and splintered as a result of being 
>marginalised and underresourced, it's difficult to figure out what's 
>useful and what's not.

   My view of alternative health care is not much more generous than 
my view of Western health care. There are plenty of people out there 
willing to sell you a handful of air. When using alternative health 
care, you still have to be informed; you still have to make the 
decisions.

>People have to take the responsibility themselves and most people 
>don't like that. They're heavily encouraged not to like it. But it's 
>the first step towards real health. Health education councils etc 
>often say that too.

   I totally agree.

John
-- 
John Morris
Editide
Editing and Graphic Design
1350 VT Rte 232
Marshfield, VT 05658

888-259-8216 within the USA
802-426-2017 outside the USA
802-426-2017 fax

http://www.editide.us
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

The way it was explained to me (by a healthcare professional) is the problem is how the drug initializes. First the inhibitory process that has kept the depressed person from acting out their suicidal tendency is suppressed. It is as you said 2 months before you dont give a . . . and are not suicidal. So for 2 months the risk is very amplified. A bit of a problem     KirkCameron Stoker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  $0.02Most SSRI's (prozac & friends) take 4 to 8 weeks to take effect - many of these deaths are because the medication _isn't_ working yet.That said, I believe there are studies showing that a good dose of sunshine i.e. morning walks, are just as effective at treating depression as the anti-depressants. If you know someone who suffers from depression is worth it to drag them
 out of bed in the morning for several weeks to go walk for 15 min.If a depressed person doesn't have someone who will do that for them, it's less expensive in this odd society/health care system to take the pills.On Feb 28, 2006, at 8:31 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote:. The press also doesnt talk about the prozac suicide rate in the first 2 months of medicating.If you want info on hypnosis let me knowKirk___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Cameron Stoker[EMAIL PROTECTED]"May you run like a
 vicuña!"___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
		Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze. 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

  vide. "Look" or "see." This phrase refers the reader to an earlier statement or definition within the body of  the essay. The must common uses are "vide 63" (which means "see page sixty-three"), v.s. vide supra  ("see earlier" or "look above on this page") and v.i. vide infra ("See below" or "Look below"). Don't  confuse v.s. (vide
 supra) with vs. (versus).        You asked for references  amalgam.org has a plethora of published references.  Are you blind or just quarrelsome? Obfuscation does not become you.  Dominating an argument is obviously more important than the truth to you.  How sad especially in light of your position of authority with the youth.     Kirk     bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Howdy Kirk,Kirk McLoren wrote:> We find that there is a lot of concern about mercury and burning coal > yet you advocate a mercury source that is much more concentrated
 as not > a demonstrable health problem.Environmental releases of Hg is not where we started. I agree whole heartedly with you. I have done research on environmental Hg (one of my project favorites- My students and I got to go fishing for sunfish, then we analyzed the flesh for mercury content- but that is another story)let's try to keep to our discussion. My response to you was to two claims you made:" So what do other dentists think that are outside the liability issue if American dentists ever admit they have poisoned people for a century"and"In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mouth (mercuryamalgam"all I suggested is that I find no support in the literature for your claims- so give me some proof- if dental amalgams are really poisoning people for so long, then surely their is some epidemiological
 evidence.As to German Law- any Europeans out there to direct us to relevant legalese?You need to see what is wrong with your> search engine Bob. You only seem to find politically correct authorities > to quote.I used as my source the world health organization, in addition to other national/ international organizations.Could you please direct me to better data sources then, but please no testimonials. Remember we are talking about data that supports your claim that dental amalgam has (Hg) has been poisoning people, not that metallic mercury can be converted in the environment to dimethyl mercury which is several orders of magnitude more toxic.> > Since as in any trial we can find "experts" to vouch for any position I > suggest we use a modicum of logic and ask ourselves if the EPA is full > of fertilizer in labeling amalgam as hazardous waste.different
 question entirelyAre you aware that> the Great lakes mercury control program identifies dental amalgam waste > from drains a major source of toxicity in the lakes?> Since you are a chemist you might like http://www.amalgam.org/vide supra> > Kirk
		Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze. 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Gary L. Green]

There are more kinds of Doctors in the world than just medical  
doctors and some of us ARE concerned with health.


On  01Mar, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Joe Street wrote:

> I agree Kim;
>
> Doctors are not in the business of health, they are in the business  
> of treating disease.


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[bob allen]

Howdy Kirk,

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> We find that there is a lot of concern about mercury and burning coal 
> yet you advocate a mercury source that is much more concentrated as not 
> a demonstrable health problem.

Environmental releases of Hg is not where we started. I agree whole 
heartedly with you.  I have done research on environmental Hg (one of my 
project favorites- My students and I got to go fishing for sunfish, then 
we analyzed the flesh for mercury content- but that is another story)

let's try to keep to our discussion. My response to you was to two 
claims you made:

  " So what do other dentists think that are outside the liability issue 
if American dentists ever admit they have poisoned people for a century"

and

"In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice 
dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mouth (mercury
amalgam"


all I suggested is that I find no support in the literature for your 
claims- so give me some proof- if dental amalgams are really poisoning 
people for so long, then surely their is some epidemiological evidence.
As to German Law-  any Europeans out there to direct us to relevant 
legalese?




You need to see what is wrong with your
> search engine Bob. You only seem to find politically correct authorities 
> to quote.

I used as my source the world health organization, in addition to other 
national/ international organizations.

Could you please direct me to better data sources then, but please no 
testimonials. Remember we are talking about data that supports your 
claim that dental amalgam has (Hg) has been poisoning people, not that 
metallic mercury can be converted in the environment to dimethyl mercury 
which is several orders of magnitude more toxic.



>  
> Since as in any trial we can find "experts" to vouch for any position I 
> suggest we use a modicum of logic and ask ourselves if the EPA is full 
> of fertilizer in labeling amalgam as hazardous waste.

different question entirely


  Are you aware that
> the Great lakes mercury control program identifies dental amalgam waste 
> from drains a major source of toxicity in the lakes?
> Since you are a chemist you might like http://www.amalgam.org/

   vide supra
>  
> Kirk
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Howdy Kirk, let me suggest we conduct this colloquy on one thing at a
> time, it makes keeping track of the score easier.
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  >
>  > So lets try for a bit of objectivity here - I think Wilzig is pc and
>  > saying this modality is bunk. So what do other dentists think
> that are
>  > outside the liability issue if American dentists ever admit they
> have
>  > poisoned people for a century
> 
> 
> ok, dental amalgams it is
> 
> - remember this is enormously larger than
>  > tobacco.
>  > In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice
>  > dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mouth (mercury
>  > amalgam).
> 
> reference please?
> 
> here is what I found with a quick google:
> 
> 
> http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/dts-iac/documents/websiteresources/con2017986.pdf
> 
> below is a partial list of scientific and or, governmental
> organizations
> that don't share your view of the risks of dental amalgams
> 
> 
> WHO
> In March 1997 the World Health Organisation (WHO) evaluated a large
> amount of conflicting evidence from diverse sources and concluded:
> “Dental amalgam restorations are considered safe, but components of
> amalgam and other dental restorative materials may, in rare instances,
> cause local side effects or allergic reactions. The small amount of
> mercury released from amalgam restorations, especially during placement
> and removal, has not been shown to cause any other adverse health
> effects...
> 
> European Commission
> Europe too has carried out a review of the safety of dental amalgam.
> In1994 a mandate was issued by the European Commission, which requested
> an in-depth analysis of the available results of research relating to
> the safety of dental amalgam, including available information relating
> to adverse incidents.
> The group that had been set the task of undertaking this investigation
> met on 9 occasions between 1995 and 1997. Some of their conclusions
> were:
> “Currently available data indicate that mercury from dental amalgams
> will not cause an unacceptable health risk to the general population”.
> “No systemic dose-dependent toxic effects have been shown to be related
> to the release of mercury from dental amalgam fillings”.
> “Taking the evidence that our group has reviewed, the benefits of
> restoring teeth with dental amalgam outweigh significantly the
> documented risks”.
> “There is no scientific evidence that the use of dental amalgam is
> related to adverse ef

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Joe Street]

I agree Kim;

Doctors are not in the business of health, they are in the business of
treating disease.

Joe

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

  Greetings,
Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take 
drugs, daily?

I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that knows 
anything about diet.  And no, not just rural doctors.  If the doctors are 
so great, then why is our health care so bad?  Sorry, but it is not 
horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet that 
have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know.  I 
assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of the 
medical school teaching.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
  
  
Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


  Doctors in this country tell
people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.
Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.
  

Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.

My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,
heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos
outside the mainstream for doing so.

Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult obesity.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf

Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:

http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp

Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of
current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping
generalization to be overly broad.

jh










___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  
  


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
I know it is hard to walk out on a job without knowing what is coming, but 
congratulations on your obvious self love.  I will send you some energy 
that hopefully will help you find a way to live better.  I am a middle aged 
woman who is busting her butt building a farm so hubby can retire from the 
oil field before it kills him, spiritually if not physically.  It is a hard 
challenge, but worth it.

May I suggest growing some alfalfa sprouts on your counter?  The boost to 
your system from fresh sprouts has helped many friends fighting depression, 
for the same kind of reasons.  2 tbsp of seed in a 1 quart jar, soak for 12 
hours, then drain.  Rinse every 12 hours for the next 3.5 to 4.5 days then 
eat.  Put them in the fridge after 5 days if they are not all gone.  This 
is a wonderful boost of fresh vitamins to help combat the winter doldrums.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:08 PM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
>Recently, I've found myself unable to concentrate, depressed, having
>trouble sleeping, being  unmotivated, constantly being angry.   I'm
>sure that if I went to see a doctor about this, he or she could
>prescribe something to try to help.  This is "civilized society's"
>response to this condition.  Go talk to a psychiatrist and we'll drug
>you up to make you forget about it.  And I'm not denying that many
>people with depression do have chemical imbalances.  But, I actually
>know what causes me to feel this way -- my dead end office job which
>pays me crap, has no flexibility, in a place with no natural light,
>and no plants (actually, my two desk plants died, and I feel like I'm
>on the way out next).  A few days off, in the mountains (where I don't
>even have a flush toilet, oh the horror), and I feel like a real
>person again.  Till Monday when I have to drag myself back to the
>office.  Civilized society sees my job as perfectly normal, and thus
>cannot solve the root of the problem.  However, they can drug me up to
>make me accept it -- and yes, I know alot of people who have done
>exactly this.  And many more who self medicate with non-prescription
>drugs such as alchohol, marijuana, etc...  I know how to stay healthy
>-- but I have to be willing to buck societal norms in order to do it.
>
>I'm quitting the job on Friday.  Not exactly sure what's next  but
>it'll be something more in balance with being a human instead of a
>robot.
>
>
>
>On 2/28/06, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take
> > drugs, daily?
> >
> > I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that knows
> > anything about diet.  And no, not just rural doctors.  If the doctors are
> > so great, then why is our health care so bad?  Sorry, but it is not
> > horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet that
> > have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know.  I
> > assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of the
> > medical school teaching.
> >
> > Bright Blessings,
> > Kim
> >
> > At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
> > >Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> > > > Doctors in this country tell
> > > > people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.
> > > > Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.
> > >
> > >Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.
> > >
> > >My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,
> > >heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos
> > >outside the mainstream for doing so.
> > >
> > >Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult 
> obesity.
> > >
> > >http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf
> > >
> > >Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:
> > >
> > >http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp
> > >
> > >Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of
> > >current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping
> > >generalization to be overly broad.
> > >
> > >jh
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >___
> > >Biofuel mailing list
> > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,0

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Cameron Stoker]

$0.02
Most SSRI's (prozac & friends) take 4 to 8 weeks to take effect -  
many of these deaths are because the medication _isn't_ working yet.
That said, I believe there are studies showing that a good dose of  
sunshine i.e. morning walks, are just as effective at treating  
depression as the anti-depressants.  If you know someone who suffers  
from depression is worth it to drag them out of bed in the morning  
for several weeks to go walk for 15 min.

If a depressed person doesn't have someone who will do that for  
them, it's less expensive in this odd society/health care system to  
take the pills.

On Feb 28, 2006, at 8:31 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote:

. The press also doesnt talk about the prozac suicide rate in the  
first 2 months of medicating.
If you want info on hypnosis let me know

Kirk

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000  
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 Cameron Stoker
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 "May you run like a vicuña!"


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Keith Addison]

Hello Zeke

Sympathies.

>Recently, I've found myself unable to concentrate, depressed, having
>trouble sleeping, being  unmotivated, constantly being angry.   I'm
>sure that if I went to see a doctor about this, he or she could
>prescribe something to try to help.  This is "civilized society's"
>response to this condition.  Go talk to a psychiatrist and we'll drug
>you up to make you forget about it.  And I'm not denying that many
>people with depression do have chemical imbalances.  But, I actually
>know what causes me to feel this way -- my dead end office job which
>pays me crap, has no flexibility, in a place with no natural light,
>and no plants (actually, my two desk plants died, and I feel like I'm
>on the way out next).  A few days off, in the mountains (where I don't
>even have a flush toilet, oh the horror), and I feel like a real
>person again.  Till Monday when I have to drag myself back to the
>office.  Civilized society sees my job as perfectly normal, and thus
>cannot solve the root of the problem.  However, they can drug me up to
>make me accept it -- and yes, I know alot of people who have done
>exactly this.  And many more who self medicate with non-prescription
>drugs such as alchohol, marijuana, etc...  I know how to stay healthy
>-- but I have to be willing to buck societal norms in order to do it.
>
>I'm quitting the job on Friday.  Not exactly sure what's next  but
>it'll be something more in balance with being a human instead of a
>robot.

You just have to be making the right move, no matter what comes of 
it. Stick to your guns and I'm sure you'll never regret it. It's not 
just an article of faith that there has to be a way forward for a 
sane human making a sane and human decision about how to live their 
life in a sane and human way.

Best of good fortune to you Zeke.

Regards

Keith



>On 2/28/06, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take
> > drugs, daily?
> >
> > I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that knows
> > anything about diet.  And no, not just rural doctors.  If the doctors are
> > so great, then why is our health care so bad?  Sorry, but it is not
> > horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet that
> > have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know.  I
> > assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of the
> > medical school teaching.
> >
> > Bright Blessings,
> > Kim
> >
> > At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
> > >Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> > > > Doctors in this country tell
> > > > people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.
> > > > Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.
> > >
> > >Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.
> > >
> > >My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,
> > >heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos
> > >outside the mainstream for doing so.
> > >
> > >Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of 
>adult obesity.
> > >
> > >http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf
> > >
> > >Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:
> > >
> > >http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp
> > >
> > >Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of
> > >current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping
> > >generalization to be overly broad.
> > >
> > >jh


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Keith Addison]

Hello Kim, John and all

>Greetings,
>Well, I did try this, talking to an RD, and you know what, most of her
>recommendations came from a package.  That's right, the prepared chemical
>food that makes you nice and sick. Her comment was to ask why I was talking
>to her, since I already knew more about nutrition than she did. She said
>that they are taught not to recomend raw food made from scratch as it would
>give the proffession a black eye as a bunch of loonies.  gota love the system.
>
>Thankfully I discovered Keith's JTF site and started down a path that has
>led to real health for the first time in my life.  Thanks Keith.

Kim, you are more than welcome. My thanks to you, that sure gave me a 
rosy glow.

With too few exceptions, medical doctors don't usually know what 
health is, they think it's just the absence of disease: kill the 
disease and the patient will be healthy again. Same as growing food: 
kill the pests and the plants will be healthy - NOT! I've seldom 
managed to discuss this sensibly with medical people, usually they 
just can't see it. Sometimes they get very angry and contemptuous: 
"Of COURSE we're healthier than we used to be, we've got so many more 
hospital beds now!" LOL! True case, not the only one. You can easily 
get them backpedalling on the iatrogenic illness question and on 
other issues, but they won't relent.

(Re iatrogenic illness, there's at least a 1 in 500 chance of getting 
killed by medical treatment in the US, 1.8 million people per year 
pick up infections in US hospitals, 20,000 of them die, it 
contributes to an additional 70,000 deaths, at a cost of $4.5 
billion, according to the CDC; other reports have found much higher 
rates. See, eg:
 - lots 
more at Rachel's. The argument against this is usually that the 
system isn't working properly but if it did there wouldn't be a 
problem. Note this however: "The rate of iatrogenic infections has 
increased 36% in the past 20 years partly because people entering 
hospitals now are sicker and more vulnerable then they were 20 years 
ago..." This is far from the only indication that the system itself 
is failing to deliver health even where it doesn't make mistakes. The 
system is the mistake.)

Medical people you can often discuss real health with are those 
who've worked on health issues in developing countries. For instance 
I mentioned it at the first meeting I attended of the Primary 
Healthcare group at the Royal Tropical Institute in Holland, where I 
was the editor and science editor for a couple of years: "But there's 
more to health than just the absence of disease," I remarked. There 
was a pause, they all looked at me, and one said, "Of course there 
is," and the discussion continued, and I was most pleased to join it 
on those terms.

What's the difference? John Morris said it's a matter of market 
supply and demand: "If people demanded health, that same system would 
provide health." No it wouldn't, that's not on the table. What's 
missing from this glad view of the inevitable democratic outcome of 
market mechanisms is the billions of dollars spent very effectively 
on telling people what to demand and only providing options that are 
deemed profitable. The pharmaceutical corporations, the medical 
profession and industry, and the government regulators, all go along 
with this - not a wild statement, it's very well substantiated. (See 
the links below for a tip of the iceberg.) Healthcare is essentially 
a drugs marketing system. There won't be much health available via 
the healthcare system until this problem is solved. And health is far 
from the only issue that that applies to.

The difference is that the big guys aren't interested in making money 
at the primary healthcare level in poor 3rd World countries because 
the patients there haven't got any money anyway, primary healthcare 
projects are free.

You don't really need to persuade doctors, they can be useful anyway, 
you can often get information you need from them, as well as some 
appropriate treatment, as long as it's you who's making the decisions 
and you're informed enough to do that. Alternative healthcare is 
available for those making their own choices, but it's still limited. 
It does constitute a real alternative but it's embattled and 
splintered as a result of being marginalised and underresourced, it's 
difficult to figure out what's useful and what's not. People have to 
take the responsibility themselves and most people don't like that. 
They're heavily encouraged not to like it. But it's the first step 
towards real health. Health education councils etc often say that 
too.

Best

Keith


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg54672.html
[Biofuel] How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg54671.html
[Biofuel] A Long-Feared Drug Gets the Green Light

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@s

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

We find that there is a lot of concern about mercury and burning coal yet you advocate a mercury source that is much more concentrated as not a demonstrable health problem. You need to see what is wrong with your search engine Bob. You only seem to find politically correct authorities to quote.     Since as in any trial we can find "experts" to vouch for any position I suggest we use a modicum of logic and ask ourselves if the EPA is full of fertilizer in labeling amalgam as hazardous waste. Are you aware that the Great lakes mercury control program identifies dental amalgam waste from drains a major source of toxicity in the lakes?  Since you are a chemist you might like http://www.amalgam.org/     Kirk  bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Howdy Kirk, let me suggest we conduct this colloquy on one thing at a time, it makes keeping track of the score easier.Kirk McLoren wrote:> > So lets try for a bit of objectivity here - I think Wilzig is pc and > saying this modality is bunk. So what do other dentists think that are > outside the liability issue if American dentists ever admit they have > poisoned people for a century ok, dental amalgams it is- remember this is enormously larger than> tobacco.> In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice > dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mouth (mercury > amalgam). reference please?here is what I found with a quick google:http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/dts-iac/documents/websiteresources/con2017986.pdfbelow is a partial list of scientific and or, governmental organizations that don't share your view of
 the risks of dental amalgamsWHOIn March 1997 the World Health Organisation (WHO) evaluated a large amount of conflicting evidence from diverse sources and concluded:“Dental amalgam restorations are considered safe, but components of amalgam and other dental restorative materials may, in rare instances, cause local side effects or allergic reactions. The small amount of mercury released from amalgam restorations, especially during placement and removal, has not been shown to cause any other adverse health effects...European CommissionEurope too has carried out a review of the safety of dental amalgam. In1994 a mandate was issued by the European Commission, which requested an in-depth analysis of the available results of research relating to the safety of dental amalgam, including available information relating to adverse incidents.The group that had been set the task of undertaking this investigation met on 9
 occasions between 1995 and 1997. Some of their conclusions were:“Currently available data indicate that mercury from dental amalgams will not cause an unacceptable health risk to the general population”.“No systemic dose-dependent toxic effects have been shown to be related to the release of mercury from dental amalgam fillings”.“Taking the evidence that our group has reviewed, the benefits of restoring teeth with dental amalgam outweigh significantly the documented risks”.“There is no scientific evidence that the use of dental amalgam is related to adverse effects on pre and post-natal health or fertility” *.The group also pointed out that less information was available on the toxicity of alternative dental filling materials than on dental amalgam.Health Department in CanadaIn 1996, following 2 years of assessment and consultation with scientists and governments both within Canada and abroad, the Health Department in
 Canada released its position on dental amalgam, they concluded:“Current evidence does not indicate that dental amalgam is causing illness in the general population”. And that “a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of sound existing filings”.British Dental Health FoundationIn July 2003, the British Dental Health Foundation issued their view (Policy Statement) on dental amalgam, and concluded:“The BDHF does not consider that the use of dental amalgam containing mercury poses a significant health risk”.They concurred with the advice given by the Department of Health with respect to minimising amalgam fillings and removals during pregnancy.ElsewhereElsewhere, the National Board of Health and Welfare in Sweden, the New Zealand Ministry of Health and the Malaysian Dental Council (to name but three) have all reached very similar conclusions about the safety of amalgam fillings.In the US we
 refuse to acknowledge the toxicity even though> fillings removed by a dentist are stored under cold water until a > technician with a hazmat license picks them up.> Cant have it both ways Bob - either amalgam is toxic or it isnt.you are generalizing here, be carefulI guess> we should believe the American Dental assn when they say it isnt and of > course Europeans are senseless wogs when it comes to this hysteria - right?a number of the sources I quoted are european, where are you getting this?stuff related to amalgams -- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned about how to keepfrom fooling ou

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

I have discovered hypnosis.  I am extremely enthusiastic about it.  And yes - western mental health is about getting zombied out. Did you know all those shooters such as Columbine were prozac kiddies? Press didnt say much about that fact - not pc. The press also doesnt talk about the prozac suicide rate in the first 2 months of medicating.  If you want info on hypnosis let me know     Kirk  Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Recently, I've found myself unable to concentrate, depressed, havingtrouble sleeping, being unmotivated, constantly being angry. I'msure that if I went to see a doctor about this, he or she couldprescribe something to try to help. This is "civilized society's"response to this condition. Go talk to a psychiatrist and we'll drugyou
 up to make you forget about it. And I'm not denying that manypeople with depression do have chemical imbalances. But, I actuallyknow what causes me to feel this way -- my dead end office job whichpays me crap, has no flexibility, in a place with no natural light,and no plants (actually, my two desk plants died, and I feel like I'mon the way out next). A few days off, in the mountains (where I don'teven have a flush toilet, oh the horror), and I feel like a realperson again. Till Monday when I have to drag myself back to theoffice. Civilized society sees my job as perfectly normal, and thuscannot solve the root of the problem. However, they can drug me up tomake me accept it -- and yes, I know alot of people who have doneexactly this. And many more who self medicate with non-prescriptiondrugs such as alchohol, marijuana, etc... I know how to stay healthy-- but I have to be willing to buck societal norms in order to do it.I'm
 quitting the job on Friday. Not exactly sure what's next butit'll be something more in balance with being a human instead of arobot.On 2/28/06, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Greetings,> Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take> drugs, daily?>> I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that knows> anything about diet. And no, not just rural doctors. If the doctors are> so great, then why is our health care so bad? Sorry, but it is not> horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet that> have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know. I> assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of the> medical school teaching.>> Bright Blessings,> Kim>> At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:> >Garth & Kim Travis
 wrote:> > > Doctors in this country tell> > > people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.> > > Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.> >> >Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.> >> >My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,> >heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos> >outside the mainstream for doing so.> >> >Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult obesity.> >> >http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf> >> >Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:> >> >http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp> >> >Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are
 ignorant of> >current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping> >generalization to be overly broad.> >> >jh> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >___> >Biofuel mailing list> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> >> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> >> >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>>___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
		Relax. Yahoo! Mail 
virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Zeke Yewdall]

Recently, I've found myself unable to concentrate, depressed, having
trouble sleeping, being  unmotivated, constantly being angry.   I'm
sure that if I went to see a doctor about this, he or she could
prescribe something to try to help.  This is "civilized society's"
response to this condition.  Go talk to a psychiatrist and we'll drug
you up to make you forget about it.  And I'm not denying that many
people with depression do have chemical imbalances.  But, I actually
know what causes me to feel this way -- my dead end office job which
pays me crap, has no flexibility, in a place with no natural light,
and no plants (actually, my two desk plants died, and I feel like I'm
on the way out next).  A few days off, in the mountains (where I don't
even have a flush toilet, oh the horror), and I feel like a real
person again.  Till Monday when I have to drag myself back to the
office.  Civilized society sees my job as perfectly normal, and thus
cannot solve the root of the problem.  However, they can drug me up to
make me accept it -- and yes, I know alot of people who have done
exactly this.  And many more who self medicate with non-prescription
drugs such as alchohol, marijuana, etc...  I know how to stay healthy
-- but I have to be willing to buck societal norms in order to do it.

I'm quitting the job on Friday.  Not exactly sure what's next  but
it'll be something more in balance with being a human instead of a
robot.



On 2/28/06, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings,
> Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take
> drugs, daily?
>
> I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that knows
> anything about diet.  And no, not just rural doctors.  If the doctors are
> so great, then why is our health care so bad?  Sorry, but it is not
> horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet that
> have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know.  I
> assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of the
> medical school teaching.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
> At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
> >Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> > > Doctors in this country tell
> > > people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.
> > > Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.
> >
> >Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.
> >
> >My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,
> >heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos
> >outside the mainstream for doing so.
> >
> >Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult obesity.
> >
> >http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf
> >
> >Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:
> >
> >http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp
> >
> >Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of
> >current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping
> >generalization to be overly broad.
> >
> >jh
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list
> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
Well, I did try this, talking to an RD, and you know what, most of her 
recommendations came from a package.  That's right, the prepared chemical 
food that makes you nice and sick. Her comment was to ask why I was talking 
to her, since I already knew more about nutrition than she did. She said 
that they are taught not to recomend raw food made from scratch as it would 
give the proffession a black eye as a bunch of loonies.  gota love the system.

Thankfully I discovered Keith's JTF site and started down a path that has 
led to real health for the first time in my life.  Thanks Keith.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:00 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:

>However, if you really need specialized nutrition advice, you should be
>seeing an registered dietitian, not an MD (or worse yet, some self
>proclaimed "nutritionist"). You wouldn't hire a general contractor or
>handyman to do your plumbing, you'd hire a licensed plumber. If I need
>nutrition counseling, I want a referral to an RD, since that's what they
>are trained to do. And a good physician knows when they are outside
>their area of expertise and provide such a referral.
>
>jh
>
>J



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
Then answer the question: how many people do you know that don't take 
drugs, daily?

I have been in the US for 13 years and have yet to find a doctor that knows 
anything about diet.  And no, not just rural doctors.  If the doctors are 
so great, then why is our health care so bad?  Sorry, but it is not 
horseshit, I talk to people constantly all over the US on the internet that 
have no idea how to get healthy, because their doctors don't know.  I 
assume there are some that do bother to learn, but it is not part of the 
medical school teaching.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:49 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> > Doctors in this country tell
> > people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.
> > Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.
>
>Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.
>
>My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet,
>heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos
>outside the mainstream for doing so.
>
>Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult obesity.
>
>http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf
>
>Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:
>
>http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp
>
>Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of
>current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping
>generalization to be overly broad.
>
>jh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[bob allen]

Howdy Kirk, let me suggest we conduct this colloquy on one thing at a 
time, it makes keeping track of the score easier.

Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  
> So lets try for a bit of objectivity here - I think Wilzig is pc and 
> saying this modality is bunk. So what do other dentists think that are 
> outside the liability issue if American dentists ever admit they have 
> poisoned people for a century 


ok, dental amalgams it is

- remember this is enormously larger than
> tobacco.
> In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice 
> dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mouth (mercury 
> amalgam). 

reference please?

here is what I found with a quick google:

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/dts-iac/documents/websiteresources/con2017986.pdf

below is a partial list of scientific and or, governmental organizations 
that don't share your view of the risks of dental amalgams


WHO
In March 1997 the World Health Organisation (WHO) evaluated a large 
amount of conflicting evidence from diverse sources and concluded:
“Dental amalgam restorations are considered safe, but components of 
amalgam and other dental restorative materials may, in rare instances, 
cause local side effects or allergic reactions. The small amount of 
mercury released from amalgam restorations, especially during placement 
and removal, has not been shown to cause any other adverse health effects...

European Commission
Europe too has carried out a review of the safety of dental amalgam. 
In1994 a mandate was issued by the European Commission, which requested 
an in-depth analysis of the available results of research relating to 
the safety of dental amalgam, including available information relating 
to adverse incidents.
The group that had been set the task of undertaking this investigation 
met on 9 occasions between 1995 and 1997. Some of their conclusions were:
“Currently available data indicate that mercury from dental amalgams 
will not cause an unacceptable health risk to the general population”.
“No systemic dose-dependent toxic effects have been shown to be related 
to the release of mercury from dental amalgam fillings”.
“Taking the evidence that our group has reviewed, the benefits of 
restoring teeth with dental amalgam outweigh significantly the 
documented risks”.
“There is no scientific evidence that the use of dental amalgam is 
related to adverse effects on pre and post-natal health or fertility” *.
The group also pointed out that less information was available on the 
toxicity of alternative dental filling materials than on dental amalgam.

Health Department in Canada
In 1996, following 2 years of assessment and consultation with 
scientists and governments both within Canada and abroad, the Health 
Department in Canada released its position on dental amalgam, they 
concluded:
“Current evidence does not indicate that dental amalgam is causing 
illness in the general population”. And that “a ban is not justified, 
and neither is the removal of sound existing filings”.

British Dental Health Foundation
In July 2003, the British Dental Health Foundation issued their view 
(Policy Statement) on dental amalgam, and concluded:
“The BDHF does not consider that the use of dental amalgam containing 
mercury poses a significant health risk”.
They concurred with the advice given by the Department of Health with 
respect to minimising amalgam fillings and removals during pregnancy.

Elsewhere
Elsewhere, the National Board of Health and Welfare in Sweden, the New 
Zealand Ministry of Health and the Malaysian Dental Council (to name but 
three) have all reached very similar conclusions about the safety of 
amalgam fillings.



In the US we refuse to acknowledge the toxicity even though
> fillings removed by a dentist are stored under cold water until a 
> technician with a hazmat license picks them up.
> Cant have it both ways Bob - either amalgam is toxic or it isnt.

you are generalizing here, be careful


  I guess
> we should believe the American Dental assn when they say it isnt and of 
> course Europeans are senseless wogs when it comes to this hysteria - right?

a number of the  sources I quoted are european, where are you getting 
this?


  stuff related to amalgams 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[John Hayes]

Hey Joe.

I'll certainly admit there are physicians who are out of date and out of 
touch with regard to modern practice guidelines. But getting from there 
to blanket statements about "doctors in this country" is a pretty huge leap.

With regard to your daughter's pediatrician, if he really believes that 
a Big Mac is a balanced meal, then he needs to check out the American 
Academy of Pediatrics practioners guide. Here's the URL if you want to 
print a copy:

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;117/2/544

However, I suspect what he really said was that a Big Mac can be part of 
a balanced *diet*. If so, I have no problem whatsoever with that. If you 
normally eat a diet high in fruits, vegetables and grains and low in 
saturated fat, then a Big Mac once in while isn't something to be 
concerned about.

As far as nutrition education in med school goes, you need to remember 
that the first two years of coursework in medical school is just the 
beginning of a doctor's training. During the 3rd and 4th years, teaching 
is done at the bedside and in the clinic. Moreover, the diet-health 
relationship is certainly covered in cardiology, endocrinology and other 
training programs. My dad is a diabetic so he uses an endocrinologist as 
his PCP, not a family practice doc.

However, if you really need specialized nutrition advice, you should be 
seeing an registered dietitian, not an MD (or worse yet, some self 
proclaimed "nutritionist"). You wouldn't hire a general contractor or 
handyman to do your plumbing, you'd hire a licensed plumber. If I need 
nutrition counseling, I want a referral to an RD, since that's what they 
are trained to do. And a good physician knows when they are outside 
their area of expertise and provide such a referral.

Still, I think that the medical community, as a whole, is well aware of 
of the importance of diet in health, even if some members have failed to 
stay up to date.

jh

Joe Street wrote:
> Well there are two sides to every story John;
> 
> I'm here to tell ya I have had discussions with my daughter's 
> pediatrician and he thinks a Big Mac is a balanced meal.  I've been told 
> that in medical school the subject of nutrition is covered in one single 
> course and it is mostly about memorizing the function of all the 
> vitamins and how they work in the body.
> 
> Joe
> 
> John Hayes wrote:
>> Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>>   
>>> Doctors in this country tell 
>>> people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.  
>>> Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.  
>>> 
>>
>> Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.
>>
>> My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet, 
>> heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos 
>> outside the mainstream for doing so.
>>
>> Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult obesity.
>>
>> http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf
>>
>> Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:
>>
>> http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp
>>
>> Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of 
>> current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping 
>> generalization to be overly broad.
>>
>> jh


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

   So lets try for a bit of objectivity here - I think Wilzig is pc and saying this modality is bunk. So what do other dentists think that are outside the liability issue if American dentists ever admit they have poisoned people for a century - remember this is enormously larger than tobacco.  In Germany ,for example, you would lose your license to practice dentistry if you put "silver" fillings in someones mouth (mercury amalgam). In the US we refuse to acknowledge the toxicity even though fillings removed by a dentist are stored under cold water until a technician with a hazmat license picks them up.  Cant have it both ways Bob - either amalgam is toxic or it isnt. I guess we should believe the American Dental assn when they say it isnt and of course Europeans are senseless wogs when it comes to this hysteria - right?  Same with the chronic infections induced by root canals. A barbaric practice but the ADA is a powerful lobby
 and as usual there is no shortage of the politically correct who defend them.  Anything that threatens this delicate situation of mispractice for a century will be attacked with major force. Anyone in a politically sensitive position is expected to defend the status quo -we understand that. The tragedy is defending the position when it hurts people.   Remember our wonderful system got rated # 72 at the greatest cost per patient in the world. Lack of accountability is a large contributing factor and as we see money is our most important criteria.The situation is what one should expect with these circumstances.     Kirkbob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I try to keep an open mind but certain individuals are so over the top as to loose all credibility. From the cited article, it was hard to tell
 just what was won. Bolen makes it seem like a really big deal, but, all I could find was that aetna did not have standing to make the claims they did.here is a more informative article in my opinion. see particularly the last few paragraphs.Aetna Counterclaim Against Dental Diagnostic Device Manufacturer Dismissedhttp://www.law.com/jsp/law/sfb/lawArticleSFB.jsp?id=1139393112072Peter GeierThe National Law JournalFebruary 9, 2006The maker of a dental diagnostic device and holistic dentists who use it to prescribe radical therapies that involve pulling teeth to treat nondental conditions extracted a win in the latest round in their battle against insurer Aetna Inc.U.S. District Judge Marcia S. Krieger in Denver dismissed the Hartford, Conn.-based insurance titan's countersuit against Cavitat Medical Technologies Inc. of Emory, Texas, and Cavitat owner and founder Robert J. Jones. Cavitat
 Medical Technologies Inc. v. Aetna Inc., No. 04-1849 (D. Colo.).Cavitat's lawsuit, filed in Colorado federal court, accused Aetna of "publishing and disseminating" injurious falsehoods, unlawful restraint of trade and racketeering over a 2002 policy bulletin that denied insurance coverage for claims based on procedures that employ its diagnostic Cavitat system.In its countersuit, Aetna sought among other things to recoup 429 claims it said it had paid to 17 dentists nationwide. Aetna alleged that the dentists fraudulently recoded disapproved procedures as approved on Cavitat's advice.Krieger ruled that Aetna lacked standing to bring a Colorado Consumer Protection Act claim because the alleged deceptive trade practices that caused Aetna injury were not the same practices that Aetna contends affected the public.The judge also dismissed Aetna's fraud and civil conspiracy claims, ruling that Aetna's argument
 that Cavitat advised others to make misrepresentations on claims is insufficient to state a claim for direct fraud. And the judge ruled that Aetna's allegations were not detailed enough to plead the fraud component of the civil conspiracy claim.Cynthia B. Michener, an Aetna spokeswoman, said that the company disagrees with the court's decision and maintains that its counterclaim was firmly grounded in the law and facts."However, the evidence we collected for our counterclaim will be very useful in defending Aetna against Cavitat's only two remaining claims," Michener said, adding that Krieger's decision "leaves us free to pursue fraud claims against the dentists who use the Cavitat technology."Andrew B. Reid of the Walter L. Gerash Law Firm in Denver, who represents Cavitat, said that Aetna's defense highlights "an amazing situation of mudslinging between crusaders of two different philosophies of medical practice":
 traditional practitioners and those pioneering alternative practices."We allege in our litigation that Aetna is just trying to avoid or delay a huge potential liability ... meanwhile depriving their members of the proven medical benefits of this device."The case is scheduled for trial in June on Cavitat's two surviving claims against Aetna: disparagement and tortious interference with prospective business relationship or contract.FROM MS TO CANCERCavitat system users employ the device to locate

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[John Morris]

>Is this a surprise?  How many people do you know, reguardless of age 
>that don't take at least one prescription drug a day?

   Me (39), all of my step children and their partners (20 to 32), 
most of my grandchildren, my father (72) and most of my friends. I 
know more people who don't than who do. I have never in my life taken 
any prescription medications despite the fact that both of my parents 
are family physicians. My point is not that health care in the US is 
anything like healthy, but that it is not forced on us. We do have a 
choice. If people make the choice to take, and even demand, the 
drugs, a system based on capitalism will provide those people with 
drugs. If people demanded health, that same system would provide 
health.

>For us, it is just us, everyone we know takes them.  Doctors in this 
>country tell people that what they eat makes no difference to their 
>health.  Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with 
>diabetes.  Go figure.

   Some doctors do tell us that and other doctors focus heavily on 
diet, exercise, and environment. People who want to be allowed to eat 
anything and never exercise will seek out those doctors that meet 
their desire. People who truly want to achieve health without drugs 
can and do find the doctors that will travel that road with them.
   Seven months ago at 57, my wife was within weeks of a massive heart 
attack. She experienced some chest pains and went to the hospital. 
After a procedure to install a stent, she has been on three 
prescriptions. However, she is working towards addressing the issues 
(stress, blood pressure, weight, cholesterol) with diet, exercise, 
and environment. Although dubious about her ability to make the 
necessary changes without drugs, her cardiologist is very supportive 
of her trying. So far, she has reduced most of the prescriptions by 
half.

John
-- 
John Morris
Editide
Editing and Graphic Design
1350 VT Rte 232
Marshfield, VT 05658

888-259-8216 within the USA
802-426-2017 outside the USA
802-426-2017 fax

http://www.editide.us
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Joe Street]

Well there are two sides to every story John;

I'm here to tell ya I have had discussions with my daughter's
pediatrician and he thinks a Big Mac is a balanced meal.  I've been
told that in medical school the subject of nutrition is covered in one
single course and it is mostly about memorizing the function of all the
vitamins and how they work in the body.

Joe

John Hayes wrote:

  Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
  
  
Doctors in this country tell 
people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.  
Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.  

  
  
Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.

My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet, 
heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos 
outside the mainstream for doing so.

Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult obesity.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf

Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:

http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp

Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of 
current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping 
generalization to be overly broad.

jh










___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[John Hayes]

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> Doctors in this country tell 
> people that what they eat makes no difference to their health.  
> Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes.  

Kim, I don't mean to be harsh, but that is utter and complete horseshit.

My sister and her husband, both internists, counsel patients on diet, 
heart disease and diabetes every single day. Nor are they some wierdos 
outside the mainstream for doing so.

Here is the AMA clinical road map for *dietary* management of adult obesity.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/booklet4-1.pdf

Here are the ADA clinical practice guidelines for 2006:

http://www.diabetes.org/for-health-professionals-and-scientists/cpr.jsp

Maybe the white haired country docs in rural Texas are ignorant of 
current practice recommendations, but I find your sweeping 
generalization to be overly broad.

jh










___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
Is this a surprise?  How many people do you know, reguardless of age
that don't take at least one prescription drug a day?  For us, it is
just us, everyone we know takes them.  Doctors in this country tell
people that what they eat makes no difference to their health. 
Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with
diabetes.  Go figure.
Real information on nutrition is hard to find, if you don't know about
JTF and the soil and health library.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 06:21 PM 2/27/2006, you wrote:
American health system rated #72
by WHO and the #1 killer of Americans.
 
Incidentally also the most expensive health care in the world
Kirk





http://www.bolenreport.net/feature_articles/feature_article023.htm




Brings words and photos together (easily) with

PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[bob allen]

I try to keep an open mind but certain individuals are so over the top 
as to loose all credibility.  From the cited article, it was hard to 
tell just what was won. Bolen makes it seem like a really big deal, but, 
all I could find was that aetna did not have standing to make the claims 
they did.


here is a more informative article in my opinion.  see particularly the 
last few paragraphs.


Aetna Counterclaim Against Dental Diagnostic Device Manufacturer Dismissed

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/sfb/lawArticleSFB.jsp?id=1139393112072

Peter Geier
The National Law Journal
February 9, 2006

The maker of a dental diagnostic device and holistic dentists who use it 
to prescribe radical therapies that involve pulling teeth to treat 
nondental conditions extracted a win in the latest round in their battle 
against insurer Aetna Inc.

U.S. District Judge Marcia S. Krieger in Denver dismissed the Hartford, 
Conn.-based insurance titan's countersuit against Cavitat Medical 
Technologies Inc. of Emory, Texas, and Cavitat owner and founder Robert 
J. Jones. Cavitat Medical Technologies Inc. v. Aetna Inc., No. 04-1849 
(D. Colo.).

Cavitat's lawsuit, filed in Colorado federal court, accused Aetna of 
"publishing and disseminating" injurious falsehoods, unlawful restraint 
of trade and racketeering over a 2002 policy bulletin that denied 
insurance coverage for claims based on procedures that employ its 
diagnostic Cavitat system.

In its countersuit, Aetna sought among other things to recoup 429 claims 
it said it had paid to 17 dentists nationwide. Aetna alleged that the 
dentists fraudulently recoded disapproved procedures as approved on 
Cavitat's advice.

Krieger ruled that Aetna lacked standing to bring a Colorado Consumer 
Protection Act claim because the alleged deceptive trade practices that 
caused Aetna injury were not the same practices that Aetna contends 
affected the public.

The judge also dismissed Aetna's fraud and civil conspiracy claims, 
ruling that Aetna's argument that Cavitat advised others to make 
misrepresentations on claims is insufficient to state a claim for direct 
fraud. And the judge ruled that Aetna's allegations were not detailed 
enough to plead the fraud component of the civil conspiracy claim.

Cynthia B. Michener, an Aetna spokeswoman, said that the company 
disagrees with the court's decision and maintains that its counterclaim 
was firmly grounded in the law and facts.

"However, the evidence we collected for our counterclaim will be very 
useful in defending Aetna against Cavitat's only two remaining claims," 
Michener said, adding that Krieger's decision "leaves us free to pursue 
fraud claims against the dentists who use the Cavitat technology."

Andrew B. Reid of the Walter L. Gerash Law Firm in Denver, who 
represents Cavitat, said that Aetna's defense highlights "an amazing 
situation of mudslinging between crusaders of two different philosophies 
of medical practice": traditional practitioners and those pioneering 
alternative practices.

"We allege in our litigation that Aetna is just trying to avoid or delay 
a huge potential liability ... meanwhile depriving their members of the 
proven medical benefits of this device."

The case is scheduled for trial in June on Cavitat's two surviving 
claims against Aetna: disparagement and tortious interference with 
prospective business relationship or contract.

FROM MS TO CANCER

Cavitat system users employ the device to locate "cavitations," or areas 
of bone loss or deterioration in their patients' jaws, which, they 
believe, are made particularly susceptible by prior conventional amalgam 
fillings and root canal work.

Such practitioners claim that "neuralgia-inducing cavitational 
osteonecrosis," or NICO, diagnosed in these areas can cause an array of 
medical complaints such as chronic fatigue, multiple sclerosis, Lou 
Gehrig's disease and cancer.

Evelyn F. Ireland, executive director of the National Association of 
Dental Plans, a Dallas-based nonprofit trade association that represents 
the dental benefits industry, said that the high profile of the Aetna 
case has prompted other insurers to review whether they have paid 
similar claims, but that the numbers are comparatively small.

Although Aetna named 17 practitioners in its counterclaim -- less than 
one in every 10,000 practicing dentists -- Ireland also pointed out that 
"Cavitat is just the brand name for a single supplier of this type of 
device and not the only supplier out there."

David J. Wilzig, a solo practitioner in Los Angeles, has settled three 
individual dental malpractice cases in Orange County, Calif., against 
two Huntington Beach dentists who used the Cavitat system to diagnose 
and treat patients.

Wilzig, who said his main practice involves business litigation between 
doctors, said that he began taking these cases because he was outraged 
at what he sees as a "selective predatory practice."

"This isn't medicine, it's out-and-out fraud! And it's

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Gary L. Green]

That was fun.

As a Chiropractor I get lots of this kind of  stuff thrown at me,  
both information and accusations.  As chiros are at the heart of  
Barrett's hate I'm very familiar with him.  It was nice to get a  
glimpse behind the curtain to see how he is funded and the trouble  
he's in.

Yeah, anybody who is constantly photographed in front of military  
equipment wearing dark glasses like this Bolen guy must have a few  
screws loose.  Still got some good info out of him though.

OTOH, Barrett isn't completely wrong either.  Too much of  
Chiropractic IS practiced like a for-profit religion.


On 28 Feb 2006, at 11:27, Kirk McLoren wrote:

> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > American health system rated #72 by WHO and the #1 killer of  
> Americans.
> >
> > Incidentally also the most expensive health care in the world
> > Kirk
> >
>  http://www.bolenreport.net/feature_articles/feature_article023.htm

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[Kirk McLoren]

I am not a fan of Hulda.  The referenced article is just the news about Aetna and justice.  I dont expect a reporter to be more than a compiler of data. - and the data in this case seems fairly clear.  Most reporting is politically correct as most of us are sensitive to career and feeding our families. Sometimes the eccentric are the only source left.  So what specifically are you in disagreement with or are you just using a broad "argumentum ad hominum" brush to minimize this story? I feel heath care in the us has been compromised due to insurance company profiteeringmore than greed by MDs     Kirkbob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I'll be the first to admit the the health care system in the US is loaded for the rich, but to quote Tim Bolen? He is a shill for some of the
 nuttiest quackery on the planet. He is (or was) the publicist for Hulda Clark, who claims one gets aids when liver flukes migrate to the thymus, stimulated by exposure to benzene. give me a break...Kirk McLoren wrote:> American health system rated #72 by WHO and the #1 killer of Americans.> > Incidentally also the most expensive health care in the world> Kirk> > > > http://www.bolenreport.net/feature_articles/feature_article023.htm> > > > Brings words and photos together (easily) with> PhotoMail > > - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.> > > > > ___> Biofuel
 mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006-- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned about how to keepfrom fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman___Biofuel mailing
 listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
		Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze. 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] "Quackbuster" Busted in Court

[bob allen]

I'll be the first to admit the the health care system in the US is loaded for 
the rich, but to quote 
Tim Bolen?  He is a shill for some of the nuttiest quackery on the planet. He 
is (or was) the 
publicist for Hulda Clark, who claims one gets aids when liver flukes migrate 
to the thymus, 
stimulated by exposure to benzene.  give me a break...

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> American health system rated #72 by WHO and the #1 killer of Americans.
>  
> Incidentally also the most expensive health care in the world
> Kirk
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bolenreport.net/feature_articles/feature_article023.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Brings words and photos together (easily) with
> PhotoMail 
> 
>  
> - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/