Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Here's Pimentel's paper: Ethanol Production Using Corn, Switchgrass, and Wood; Biodiesel Production Using Soybean and Sunflower David Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek Natural Resources Research, Vol. 14, No. 1, March 2005 (C 2005) http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/Pimentel-Tadzek.pdf News release from Cornell: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html Biomass for biofuel isn't worth it FYI: David Pimentel Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] See: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Scroll down to Ethanol under fire for more on Pimentel. Best wishes Keith Thanks to a post at TDIclub, I discovered that Pimentel has released yet another report on ethanol. Looking at the dates below, he's a month ahead of schedule this year. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/03/8.14.03/Pimentel-ethanol.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/01/8.23.01/Pimentel-ethanol.html I can't speak to this newest report, but as long time readers of this list already know, Pimental's work has been repeatedly critiqued, and one of the main compliants it that he uses out of date numbers for yield and conversion efficiency. Here's a few links: http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-814.pdf http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_rooster.html http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm All that having been said, Pimental is right that soy and corn alone cannot replace our petroleum addiction jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Regarding use of "human manure," it's my understanding that sewage sludge may be used in the USas a soil treatment for non-human-edible crops, and in fact that a good bit of it is recycled that way. (See "Garbage Land -- On the Secret Trail of Trash, by Elizabeth Royte) I, like a number of others who have posted on the subject, have no real objection to the type of family farming where nearly everything gets used or recycled. (My father grew up in farming country, and it's amazing how effective they were in using the resources they had.) It's the industrial farming that is so problematic. I'm a vegetarian who also happens to greatly miss the taste of beef, chicken, and pork, but I've decided not to provide any profits to industrial farming and finding low environmental impact sources of those meats is generally impractical where I live. BTW, I've read that some of the by-products of biofuel production can be further used, e.g., for seedcake for animals (?). If not usable to make another product, are the residuals reapplied to the fields? I would think they would still retain much of their mineral, and perhaps other valuable soil conditioners, after the biofuel is extracted. Bob In a message dated 7/11/2005 12:19:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, I don't think that the practice [applying human manure to farms] is allowed in the U.S. regardless of its value. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Some time ago, I contacted the Human Milk Banking Association of North America (www.hmbana.org) without getting a response about getting milk for consumption. The web site mentions that human milk is to be used for therapeutic and nutritional purposes for babies ( no mention of adults) although adults, especially elderly ones, need calcium in a highly digestible form (like in human milk) to prevent/cure osteopenia/osteoporosis. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My mother and grandfather swear by this stuff. I have no affiliation with this site, it was on google. I haven't taken any of this colostrum, but my grandfather and his girlfriend say it saved their lives. I am not sure of the valitidy of this, as we see in America, advertising can create a wonderdrug...barefoot coral calcium for example. all over the tv, it was the hottest fad in living forever, now it is top shelf in the back. This just came to mind when you mentioned the diseases. Ryan - Original Message - From: r [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again If we assume that the human body knows what it needs, then if human milk is the most appropriate to feed humans, how come we are drinking cow milk instead of human milk? How about industrialized human milk production? That should help to cure/prevent a fair amount of diseases prevalent in our societies? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. I should add that as mammals ourselves there is nothing that bovine milk provides to us that we cannot get directly from other foods or manufacture ourselves. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
They'll do in-home service but it costs a fortune ;-) r wrote: Some time ago, I contacted the Human Milk Banking Association of North America (www.hmbana.org) without getting a response about getting milk for consumption. The web site mentions that human milk is to be used for therapeutic and nutritional purposes for babies ( no mention of adults) although adults, especially elderly ones, need calcium in a highly digestible form (like in human milk) to prevent/cure osteopenia/osteoporosis. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My mother and grandfather swear by this stuff. I have no affiliation with this site, it was on google. I haven't taken any of this colostrum, but my grandfather and his girlfriend say it saved their lives. I am not sure of the valitidy of this, as we see in America, advertising can create a wonderdrug...barefoot coral calcium for example. all over the tv, it was the hottest fad in living forever, now it is top shelf in the back. This just came to mind when you mentioned the diseases. Ryan - Original Message - From: r [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again If we assume that the human body knows what it needs, then if human milk is the most appropriate to feed humans, how come we are drinking cow milk instead of human milk? How about industrialized human milk production? That should help to cure/prevent a fair amount of diseases prevalent in our societies? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. I should add that as mammals ourselves there is nothing that bovine milk provides to us that we cannot get directly from other foods or manufacture ourselves. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hello Ken Keith Addison wrote: You'll find societies that ate mostly vegetables and not much meat, and others that ate mostly meat and very little vegetables or grain, but none that only ate vegetables and grains and no meat. Again, I don't think that I suggested that anyone else should eat only vegetables and grains and no meat. I recommended reduction of the dependence of meat and dairy in the American culture from current levels that I perceive as excessive. It's the general direction, hence the separate discussion in the thread of the merits of vegetarianism. The drift of the discussion is (or was) the idea of replacing livestock production so that the land used to grow livestock feed (grain) can be used to better purpose, viz. food for humans and biofuels crops for energy. But without the livestock, properly managed, as they most certainly aren't now with industrial farming, the fertility of the soil will sooner or later run down and you won't be able to produce the vegetable/grain crops either. At least not without resort to ever-larger inputs of fossil-fuel based fertilizers and chemicalized crop protection, a lousy solution in every way, a non-solution. The point is that if you don't produce the gallon of milk you'll be less likely to able to produce the grain sustainably. What principles make this statement a true one? See below. And above and previous. Not at all - less dairy means less grazing livestock, less grazing livestock means less manure and less fertile soil. Without a dairy market as well as a meat market, ley farming becomes much more difficult. But WHY is dairy a necessity for grazing? You say this below: I understand the concept that you propose - that animals are essential to a farms overall soil health but, I really don't understand how dairy products increase the So you accept the cows but not the milk? Are you proposing that cattle should be raised strictly for beef? Why would you propose that? I keep stressing that farms that practise ley rotations or something similar are mixed, integrated farms, not specialised battery farms. You have a herd, cows and a bull, the cows calve and then you have milk and milk products, much more than the calf needs. And you have calves. Half of them will be bulls, but you only need one bull for a herd, the rest are beef on the hoof. So you're going to produce the milk anyway as well as the beef. I suppose you could feed it to pigs if there's some pressing reason not to sell it, but the rational thing to do is to sell it, or you risk cutting the profitability of a major segment of the farm to perhaps below economic levels. It's the sustainability aspects that will suffer first. Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? True, but she's not the only cow on the block, and even depleted, her manure contains a hell of a lot more fertility potential than a bit of wheat straw does. Or a fertiliser bag. Anyway the calf is also producing manure. However, if the milk is going to humans instead of the calf, there is no calf to produce manure. There's a calf in the first place, then the milk. No calf every year, no milk either. Industrial operations remove the calf after two or three days and feed it a commercial brew instead (often containing cattle blood, IIRC). No need for that, there's enough milk for the calf and plenty for the market as well. Also, even with the calf in the equation, the calf is growing and using more of those nutrients so ITS manure is of a lesser quality than that of a cow that was not lactating. It doesn't make any difference. Read this bit again: Sow a piece of land with a good pasture mixture and then divide it in two with a fence. Graze one half heavily and repeatedly with cattle, mow the other half as necessary and leave the mowings there in place to decay back into the soil. On the grazed half, you've removed the crop (several times) and taken away a large yield of milk and beef. On the other half you've removed nothing. Plough up both halves and plant a grain crop, or any crop. Which half has the bigger and better yield? The grazed half, by far. Ley Farming explains why grass is the most important crop and how to manage grass leys. Leys are temporary pastures in a rotation, and provide more than enough fertility for the succeeding crops: working together, grass and grazing animals turn the land into a huge living compost pile. So it doesn't much matter how much the cows remove or which of them removes it. The grazing herd consists of ALL the cattle, cows in all conditions, calves of all ages, and the bull. And we're not using human manure for fertilization. Why not? With ley farming there's no need for anything extra, you'd use the humanure elsewhere on the farm. It's only part of an overall composting operation anyway, and of course ley farms do composting
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Keith said: I suppose you could feed it to pigs if there's some pressing reason not to sell it, but the rational thing to do is to sell it, or you risk cutting the profitability of a major segment of the farm to perhaps below economic levels. It's the sustainability aspects that will suffer first. I suspected that profit might bear into this discussion. And I suppose that rightly so. We could probably debate profitability ad nausium but, there is certainly little room for loss on a family-run farm. A point well made! Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. There's a calf in the first place, then the milk. No calf every year, no milk either. Industrial operations remove the calf after two or three days and feed it a commercial brew instead (often containing cattle blood, IIRC). No need for that, there's enough milk for the calf and plenty for the market as well. Right, but I assume that we have both been on the same page for some while now that we are not discussing industrial operations. We both agree that industrial farming will have to cease eventually. If, in practice, there really is enough for the calf and still for market, then I MIGHT be willing to do some reconsidering. More research on my part there. And we're not using human manure for fertilization. Why not? With ley farming there's no need for anything extra, you'd use the humanure elsewhere on the farm. It's only part of an overall composting operation anyway, and of course ley farms do composting as well. Well, I don't think that the practice is allowed in the U.S. regardless of its value. I probably should have worded that point differently to include only the United States. I'm still reading (and probably will be for quite a while). Doesn't a lactating cow consume more water and food? So what? So, IF (speculating, of course) there is no net gain, then the additional inputs are wasted and could be better used elsewhere. My question is at what point do you begin to notice diminishing returns? In other words, if I reduce the amount of acreage that I provide for grazing (because I am not taking milk from my cows) can I grow more food for human consumption? Isn't that an increase in the competition for resources that you mentioned previous? What competition for resources did I mention? I'm not thinking in terms of competition but of symbiosis, collaboration among parts of a whole. here: I said: You are correct, livestock definitely help us tend the soil but, that doesn't mean that you have to eat the animal for it to be beneficial to you. You said: Actually it does, eat them or compete with them. The more you read, the more things begin to corroborate each other and fall into place, then it's easier. This is the place to start: Introduction to An Agricultural Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT1.html An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - 1 The problem is that there are too many resources that corroborate one another on both sides of this debate. Don't think that this is the first time that I have had this discussion. I spent a long time (a really long time) making the decission of cut meat and dairy out of my diet. I was also raised in a family with a long farm lineages on both sides. Dairy farming is a way of life that I am fairly familiar with. I think that our views are close enough that I can certainly accept you promoting your views. I also don't think that it is irresponsible for me to suggest that people eat a balanced diet of fruits, vegetables and grains grown by local organic family farms while only consuming meat when an animal has outlived its usefullness. I don't see us agreeing 100% on this issue though. But, if you can convince me, I'll be your poster child. If our societies would just return to responsible hunting and gathering, we would have no need for this conversation. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. I should add that as mammals ourselves there is nothing that bovine milk provides to us that we cannot get directly from other foods or manufacture ourselves. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
If we assume that the human body knows what it needs, then if human milk is the most appropriate to feed humans, how come we are drinking cow milk instead of human milk? How about industrialized human milk production? That should help to cure/prevent a fair amount of diseases prevalent in our societies? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. I should add that as mammals ourselves there is nothing that bovine milk provides to us that we cannot get directly from other foods or manufacture ourselves. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
r wrote: If we assume that the human body knows what it needs, then if human milk is the most appropriate to feed humans, how come we are drinking cow milk instead of human milk? How about industrialized human milk production? That should help to cure/prevent a fair amount of diseases prevalent in our societies? I don't really see the need for any milk in the human body with the exception of the millk of a woman to feed her child. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
My mother and grandfather swear by this stuff. I have no affiliation with this site, it was on google. I haven't taken any of this colostrum, but my grandfather and his girlfriend say it saved their lives. I am not sure of the valitidy of this, as we see in America, advertising can create a wonderdrug...barefoot coral calcium for example. all over the tv, it was the hottest fad in living forever, now it is top shelf in the back. This just came to mind when you mentioned the diseases. Ryan - Original Message - From: r [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again If we assume that the human body knows what it needs, then if human milk is the most appropriate to feed humans, how come we are drinking cow milk instead of human milk? How about industrialized human milk production? That should help to cure/prevent a fair amount of diseases prevalent in our societies? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. I should add that as mammals ourselves there is nothing that bovine milk provides to us that we cannot get directly from other foods or manufacture ourselves. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
hi, keith. In a message dated 7/8/05 2:22:30 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. by this point in the thread, this has become amply clear. and i'm realizing massive brainfart induced by misinformation overload. i mean, of course there's no need to raise cattle on a diet of feed/grain/meal, otherwise they wouldn't need all those stomachs! thanks for so persistently driving the point home. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Keith Addison wrote: You'll find societies that ate mostly vegetables and not much meat, and others that ate mostly meat and very little vegetables or grain, but none that only ate vegetables and grains and no meat. Again, I don't think that I suggested that anyone else should eat only vegetables and grains and no meat. I recommended reduction of the dependence of meat and dairy in the American culture from current levels that I perceive as excessive. The point is that if you don't produce the gallon of milk you'll be less likely to able to produce the grain sustainably. What principles make this statement a true one? Not at all - less dairy means less grazing livestock, less grazing livestock means less manure and less fertile soil. Without a dairy market as well as a meat market, ley farming becomes much more difficult. But WHY is dairy a necessity for grazing? True, but she's not the only cow on the block, and even depleted, her manure contains a hell of a lot more fertility potential than a bit of wheat straw does. Or a fertiliser bag. Anyway the calf is also producing manure. However, if the milk is going to humans instead of the calf, there is no calf to produce manure. Also, even with the calf in the equation, the calf is growing and using more of those nutrients so ITS manure is of a lesser quality than that of a cow that was not lactating. And we're not using human manure for fertilization. I understand the concept that you propose - that animals are essential to a farms overall soil health but, I really don't understand how dairy products increase the sustainability of agriculture. Maybe the answer is provided in one of the links you've provided but, I'm still reading (and probably will be for quite a while). Doesn't a lactating cow consume more water and food? Isn't that an increase in the competition for resources that you mentioned previous? Frankly, though, if the cow or sheep beneifits my soil which produces more nutritious fruits and vegetables, I can't see how that is really to be considered competition. It sounds more symbiotic to me especially if I am getting wool from a sheep, for instance. For what its worth, I have read a bunch of information from the links that you have provided. They seem to be very valuable. Thanks! I must admit, though, that it is often very difficult to decide who to believe. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hi Ken I am pretty sure that our thinkings on these issues are fairly well in line with one another. I think so too. Sorry If I've been putting you on the defensive, but IMO it's important to get it right, especially in the details. I'm not always quoting you directly, as with this, from previous: For what its worth, I never said anything to the affect that organic farming couldn't feed everyone. I know you didn't, and good for you, but it's the usual objection. Thus with meat is bad and milk is bad. Keith, Along with active and informed opposition to factory farming, industrialised farming and the food industry, that might be more effective than just condemning meat and meat-eaters. Meat is bad vs Do you know where that meat you're eating comes from? That particular meat. First, I never said Meat is bad. What I did say was Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food source. What I should have said is Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food staple. But it IS a sustainable food staple. Humans can eat meat sustainably when, as we both have stated, it is eaten in moderation and is carefully farmed. As with all other food. As a matter of fact, my children eat meat and dairy as well. My choice to not eat meat is exactly that - my choice. I am careful about where it comes from, though, when they do eat it. The point being, from the beginning, that we Americans need to learn to eat less meat and less dairy. I don't agree. You need to get your farmers to do farming instead of soil mining, and to get your food distribution system and your food industry in order. There is no choice, you will have to do it, the longer you put it off the worse will be the consequences. I'm not sure what the conditions are where you live but, where I live, try finding anything that doesn't contain either meat or dairy at a restaurant. In regards to the lack of traditionally vegetarian societies, isn't the Hindu community primarily meat-free? No. In fact aren't there many Asian cultures that incorporate little to no meat in their diets and have so for centuries if not longer? No. I have come to understand that meat as a food, has in many cultures, been more of a matter of convience for ages. No. A goat is food that could transport itself and also remains fresh without refrigeration until you are ready to eat it. I may not understand your meaning of a traditional vegetarian society or maybe I'm just wrong. There is no traditional society, one that has stood the test of time and developed a sustainable way of living, that has been primarily vegetarian. The main test of sustainability is how they produced their food and their relationship with the soil. See Lowdermilk, for instance: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#lowdermilk You'll find societies that ate mostly vegetables and not much meat, and others that ate mostly meat and very little vegetables or grain, but none that only ate vegetables and grains and no meat. There have been such communities within traditional societies, and there still are, but on their own they would not be sustainable. ... there is no sustainable way to maintain and renew soil fertility for crop growth without raising animals too. If you raise them you either have to eat them or compete with them. Cows have a calf a year, half of them bulls, but you only need one bull for more than a hundred cows, what will you do with the rest? For instance. When properly produced, dairy products are valuable food. They're an important part of sustainable agriculture, without them farming is less sustainable. What exactly, makes dairy products more valuable than other foods? I didn't say they're more valuable than other foods, but I did say that without them farming is less sustainable. Lets say grains for instance? Would you say that without grains farming is less sustainable? I wouldn't. And there are as many problems with grain allergies as with milk allergies, or more. On the increase, in both cases, so obviously much of it has to do with how it's grown these days, and processed, as Kim said, rather than with its inherent qualities. How much wheat could be grown with the same water that is required to produce a gallon of milk? The point is that if you don't produce the gallon of milk you'll be less likely to able to produce the grain sustainably. I have read quite a bit on this subject. My findings seem to keep indicating that the yields of grains are much higher with same water inputs. And as we all know water is one of our very most valuable resources. Likewise, I have read many times that dairy cattle tend to require a considerable amount of medication and I see no indication that cattle raised for organic milk are immune to that trend. Wrong. VERY wrong. I've
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our grass fed meat, this would really help. The agribusiness guys are having too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with all the stumbling blocks they put in our way. Even though it does cost us less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market our meat. If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. Bright Blessings, Kim A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb. At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Kim If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. I will say that this is a very compelling argument! Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
I totally agree with Ken on this. I raise chicken and lamb on pasture. We give only naturally raised grains to our chickens and rotate both onto fresh pasture daily. If I could sell more, I could lower my prices! If bad agribusiness makes you mad, don't blame your local farmer, blame Tyson, Perdue, Montasano! How many of your beans and vegetables and rice are raised with seed from Montasano(?) a agrigiant who wipes out other seed suppliers and supplies GMO modified, untested seeds to the farmer and the public. Have you checked the seeds you buy? Are they certified organic, certified naturally grown, certified non-GMO? If they're not, you are adding to the agribusiness giants who want only to control our food supply (sounds frightening? It should, and I'm really not an extremist). Thanks again Ken, it's what I was thinking! Jill Mello www.MelloFamilyFarm.com - Original Message - From: Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org; Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again Kim If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. I will say that this is a very compelling argument! Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
I believe you're agreeing with Kim's remarks to which I replied but, I agree as well. Jill Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I totally agree with Ken on this. I raise chicken and lamb on pasture. We give only naturally raised grains to our chickens and rotate both onto fresh pasture daily. If I could sell more, I could lower my prices! If bad agribusiness makes you mad, don't blame your local farmer, blame Tyson, Perdue, Montasano! How many of your beans and vegetables and rice are raised with seed from Montasano(?) a agrigiant who wipes out other seed suppliers and supplies GMO modified, untested seeds to the farmer and the public. Have you checked the seeds you buy? Are they certified organic, certified naturally grown, certified non-GMO? If they're not, you are adding to the agribusiness giants who want only to control our food supply (sounds frightening? It should, and I'm really not an extremist). Thanks again Ken, it's what I was thinking! Jill Mello www.MelloFamilyFarm.com - Original Message - From: Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org; Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again Kim If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. I will say that this is a very compelling argument! Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. I have a question I'd like to pose to those of you who are growing grass fed cattle. What happens with milk production? I've had several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality milk. Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say in response. It seems, however, that so much factory farm mentality has crept into the way food is produced in North America, determining fact from myth is difficult. One of these clients laughed at my garden several weeks ago (after I told her I use no chemical fertilizers, pesticides or herbicides), but commented to me last week in great surprise that our plants are thriving. (Our corn looks every bit as good as hers, she said, even though we're at higher elevation and it's colder and drier where I live than in the valley.) Is the idea that dairy cattle MUST be fed grain in order to produce high quality milk a myth? If so, what on earth did those poor ungulates do when they roamed the prairies in the wild? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Kim, How do we know what is pasture fed, non-hormonal beef, and corporate farm beef? I am in the process of quitting beef right now, mostly because of mad cow. I have a friend who is director of an E Coli testing lab in Colorado and the things he tells me makes me want to stay away. It tastes so good though. Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it in stores? Thanks, Ryan - Original Message - From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our grass fed meat, this would really help. The agribusiness guys are having too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with all the stumbling blocks they put in our way. Even though it does cost us less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market our meat. If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. Bright Blessings, Kim A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb. At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality milk. Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say in response. Most modern high yield milkers need some food/mineral supplements, normally fed at milking time. Older breeds that only produce half the milk can get by on natural food but still may need mineral supplements depending on the ground the grass/fodder is grown on. Wild cattle only produce enough milk for one or two calves. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 08/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Greetings Robert, I do happen to know personally the people who have a legal raw milk dairy in Texas and their cows are 100% grass fed. If your grass is up to snuff, then there is no difference. What I have found is that it takes more time and energy and a real learning curve to keep pasture in the condition that is needed to raise animals on just grass. When I brought my cow home, she was lactating, but, I had trouble remembering how to milk a cow.[I had done it once at age 10.] My grass is not all it could be. I am getting there, but I am not there yet. Alysha and Ben hire people to come in and apply compost tea to their pasture and to re-seed it for them, etc. They have fabulous pasture and their milk tastes wonderful. We bought our cows from the same commercial dairy, but they bought top of the line and I bought bottom. They are getting 3 or 4 gallons of milk from each cow, per day on a once a day milking. I have had neighbors that tell me I am going to starve my animals, but slowly they are beginning to understand that my animals get real fuel out of my grass. More than their animals get out of their grass because I don't make the poor animal try to digest 2 incompatible feeds. There will be a drop in production when you change, especially if you do it abruptly. Once the rumen is adjusted to the new feeding regimen, it is harmful to feed grains. If you want further information, I am sure I could put you in touch with the owners of the commercial 100% grass fed raw dairy, Ben and Alysha. Bright Blessings, Kim I have a question I'd like to pose to those of you who are growing grass fed cattle. What happens with milk production? I've had several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality milk. Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say in response. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Ryan said: Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it in stores? You can check this out. I stumbled across it earlier. http://www.eatwild.com/products/index.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Greetings, Yes, 100% grass fed beef and lamb are only sold directlly by farmers. If you go to www.eatwild.com like Keith suggested, you will find lots of information and local listings of suppliers. Also, there are some producers that are listed at www.localharvest.org A great place to find a local CSA. Some farmer's markets are also selling grass fed meat. I don't know anyone who has made it into the stores with their meat. This is one of the things that keeps the price so high. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:40 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Kim, How do we know what is pasture fed, non-hormonal beef, and corporate farm beef? I am in the process of quitting beef right now, mostly because of mad cow. I have a friend who is director of an E Coli testing lab in Colorado and the things he tells me makes me want to stay away. It tastes so good though. Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it in stores? Thanks, Ryan - Original Message - From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our grass fed meat, this would really help. The agribusiness guys are having too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with all the stumbling blocks they put in our way. Even though it does cost us less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market our meat. If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. Bright Blessings, Kim A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb. At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Ken, There are many samples of orphan babies of one animal, that have been fed and raised by the mother of other different animals. Hakan At 06:15 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote: FWIW - My cat drinks milk from cows. Derek -- Original message -- From: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Keith, Your make many points that give me reason for pause. However, I can wait for someone else to do something about the problems that exist or I can do something myself - done! The majority of U.S. citizens will continue to eat meat and larger quantities than responsible and probably of the cheapest factory farmed variety. I think that the animals not being raised for my personal consumption will benefit everyone more than were I to eat meat because of the benefit that it might hold for fertilization. Hopefully, I can offset the over consuption and thoughtless consumption of one other person. And we all know that we can't change anyone else. I have always thought of this as my contribution to the environment - hopefully just one of many. A point of interest, though, I don't know of any animal aside from humans that consume the milk of another animal, though, I'm sure there probably is at least one. Can someone name one? However, the concept of consuming the lactic fluids from a bovine seems rather bizarre. Those which are intended for its offspring as all milk is. I'm pretty sure that I can do without bovine hormones and antibodies. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Robert, We tolerate milk well, as long as we regularly drink it. If one stop to drink milk for a long period, it is common that the tolerance goes down and often the stomach will react violently against starting again. Often the body develop an allergy against milk products, after a long time without it. Hakan At 06:23 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: A point of interest, though, I don't know of any animal aside from humans that consume the milk of another animal, though, I'm sure there probably is at least one. Can someone name one? I have cats that like goat milk. Dogs will drink just about anything. It's a question of access, really. I suppose a fish swimming near a nursing whale may ingest the milk of another creature, and if you leave a bit of milk on the counter, you'll discover an amazing variety of small creatures that thrive within it. However, the concept of consuming the lactic fluids from a bovine seems rather bizarre. Those which are intended for its offspring as all milk is. Why is this bizarre? An adult cow produces more milk than her offspring needs, so why shouldn't we benefit from the excess? The same is true of goats and camels. It's true that some people don't tolerate milk very well, but others enjoy it on cereal or in drinks well into their senior years. Humans are opportunistic eaters capable of consuming and thriving on an incredibly wide variety of foods. Some people eat the gonads of shellfish, and some species of fish have to be carefully cooked so that their flesh does not kill the consumer. (How did we ever figure that one out?) The Masai drink the blood of their animals. Is that better, or worse? Does it matter? I'm pretty sure that I can do without bovine hormones and antibodies. Perhaps, but do you have any evidence to support the implied contention that natural bovine antibodies and hormones are detrimental to human health? Certainly the factory farm system that requires antibiotics, growth hormone injections and protein supplements introduces potential harm to our food supply. I know many Canadians who won't drink U.S. milk for that reason. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Perhaps of interest: David Pimentel Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Best wishes Keith Hello John Thanks to a post at TDIclub, I discovered that Pimentel has released yet another report on ethanol. Looking at the dates below, he's a month ahead of schedule this year. You're right John, every year I have to do an update on it at our website: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Thanks for the links. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/03/8.14.03/Pimentel-ethanol.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/01/8.23.01/Pimentel-ethanol.html I can't speak to this newest report, but as long time readers of this list already know, Pimental's work has been repeatedly critiqued, and one of the main compliants it that he uses out of date numbers for yield and conversion efficiency. Here's a few links: http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-814.pdf http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_rooster.html http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm All that having been said, Pimental is right that soy and corn alone cannot replace our petroleum addiction Nothing can replace it, nor should, IMO. It's the addiction that's the problem, not the oil, and substitution is not the way to deal with it. Unless the addict can prise his attention away from the abused substance-of-choice he's just not going to take any notice of totally irrelevant stuff like alternatives, nor care. When it's backed by such vast resources of money and power and influence as petroleum is, it's hard to budge. Meanwhile it's wrecking the neighbourhood. Sure the other industrialised countries are not exactly blameless, but your lot's just ridiculous. They're like a bunch of folks sitting on the deck of a burning ship saying, Naah, that's not a fire, just a few flames, that's all, it's perfectly safe, the ship won't sink, it's not leaking. But they're not the only guys on the ship, and they won't listen to reason, instead they keep pouring gasoline on the fire because they say they're cold or something. We don't have to like it. Best Keith jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hello Ken Keith, Your make many points that give me reason for pause. However, I can wait for someone else to do something about the problems that exist or I can do something myself - done! Quite right! Did you see Darryl's sig? It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? The majority of U.S. citizens will continue to eat meat and larger quantities than responsible and probably of the cheapest factory farmed variety. While it lasts. Too much fossil-fuels, for one thing, among many. I think that the animals not being raised for my personal consumption will benefit everyone more than were I to eat meat because of the benefit that it might hold for fertilization. The meat you eat would only have benefitted the soil if it came from outside the factory farm / meat industry system, and you'd have to make sure of it. That kind of market demand and pressure is most important in creating and sustaining the necessary alternatives to the factory farm nightmare. In the US, grass-fed beef and dairy have come a long way in the last five years, and so have pastured pork and poultry. You can even see it in the way attitudes have changed here on the list and in what people have said about it over the years. Though the overall proportion is minor, it's kept pace with the rapidly rising demand and supply of organic food in general. Along with active and informed opposition to factory farming, industrialised farming and the food industry, that might be more effective than just condemning meat and meat-eaters. Meat is bad vs Do you know where that meat you're eating comes from? That particular meat. Hopefully, I can offset the over consuption and thoughtless consumption of one other person. And we all know that we can't change anyone else. I know what you mean, but the PR industry wouldn't agree with that, to cite an unfortunate example ($30 billion a year in the US, rather a lot of it spent on behalf of the food industry). You can change people, people change all the time. There are many ways of doing it. Perhaps the most important one is changing yourself, which I think you're implying. I have always thought of this as my contribution to the environment - hopefully just one of many. You should fine-tune the meat one Ken, IMHO. Better target selection, take better aim. A point of interest, though, I don't know of any animal aside from humans that consume the milk of another animal, though, I'm sure there probably is at least one. Can someone name one? However, the concept of consuming the lactic fluids from a bovine seems rather bizarre. Those which are intended for its offspring as all milk is. I'm pretty sure that I can do without bovine hormones and antibodies. Which particular cow did it come from? What did it eat? Drinking bovine milk goes back a very long way, in many traditional societies. The health effects have been filtered through very long and broad experience over hundreds of generations, and the vast majority have long since adapted to what negative health effects there were. When properly produced, dairy products are valuable food. They're an important part of sustainable agriculture, without them farming is less sustainable. Check out milk and dairy products at Sally Fallon's website: http://www.westonaprice.org/ Also: Why Grassfed is Best!, by New York Times bestselling author Jo Robinson, explores the many benefits of grassfed meat, eggs, and dairy products. This is the website for the book, with much of interest on the nutritional benefits of grass, environmental benefits, new research. http://eatwild.com/index.html A Campaign for Real Milk -- What's needed today is a return to humane, non-toxic, pasture-based dairying and small-scale traditional processing. Also in French and German. http://www.realmilk.com/why.html http://journeytoforever.org/farm_pasture.html Pasture for small farmers: Journey to Forever Best wishes Keith Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hi Robert snip The Masai drink the blood of their animals. Is that better, or worse? Does it matter? Blood and milk, and it turns out they eat a lot of herbs and stuff too. Whether better or worse, it sustained them in superb health through many centuries. You have to read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price about this, but I think you still demur because some silly person told you he supports eugenics, which is atrocious nonsense. See: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#price Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever Damn - the whole book was online at Steve Solomon's site, http://www.soilandhealth.org/ but I see he's removed it. Steve's much too nervous about copyright infringements even when the book is out of print, in which case online reproduction is covered. Actually he got the scan from me anyway. Now I'll have to proofread it and format it and put it in our library. You should read these two chapters especially: I. Why Seek Wisdom from Primitive Races IX. Isolated and Modernized African Tribes You can read Steve's long review instead in the meantime if you like, it's good, most of it's quoted directly from the book. http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0203CAT/020305ppnf/PPNF.HTML Nutrition and Physical Degeneration Best wishes Keith snip robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Greetings, It is not just the long hiatus that harms our ability to digest milk, but the pasteurization which turns milk into a cooked protein. Raw milk is wonderful. Texas now has legal raw dairies, but the price tag [$8/gal] definitely makes owning your own cow look good. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:43 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote: Robert, We tolerate milk well, as long as we regularly drink it. If one stop to drink milk for a long period, it is common that the tolerance goes down and often the stomach will react violently against starting again. Often the body develop an allergy against milk products, after a long time without it. Hakan At 06:23 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: A point of interest, though, I don't know of any animal aside from humans that consume the milk of another animal, though, I'm sure there probably is at least one. Can someone name one? I have cats that like goat milk. Dogs will drink just about anything. It's a question of access, really. I suppose a fish swimming near a nursing whale may ingest the milk of another creature, and if you leave a bit of milk on the counter, you'll discover an amazing variety of small creatures that thrive within it. However, the concept of consuming the lactic fluids from a bovine seems rather bizarre. Those which are intended for its offspring as all milk is. Why is this bizarre? An adult cow produces more milk than her offspring needs, so why shouldn't we benefit from the excess? The same is true of goats and camels. It's true that some people don't tolerate milk very well, but others enjoy it on cereal or in drinks well into their senior years. Humans are opportunistic eaters capable of consuming and thriving on an incredibly wide variety of foods. Some people eat the gonads of shellfish, and some species of fish have to be carefully cooked so that their flesh does not kill the consumer. (How did we ever figure that one out?) The Masai drink the blood of their animals. Is that better, or worse? Does it matter? I'm pretty sure that I can do without bovine hormones and antibodies. Perhaps, but do you have any evidence to support the implied contention that natural bovine antibodies and hormones are detrimental to human health? Certainly the factory farm system that requires antibiotics, growth hormone injections and protein supplements introduces potential harm to our food supply. I know many Canadians who won't drink U.S. milk for that reason. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Keith Addison wrote: Blood and milk, and it turns out they eat a lot of herbs and stuff too. Whether better or worse, it sustained them in superb health through many centuries. This was my point! Some people recoil at the idea of eating dairy products, but the evidence often cited falls more effectively into the realm of opinion than objective, verified information. I know a lot of people who refuse to eat milk, eggs and cheese because they think these foods are harmful to their bodies, yet many traditional diets contain foods of this nature and the people who consume them live long, healthy and productive lives. Part of this stems from the perception that we in the Western World are somehow intellectually superior, that our economic success underscores vaunted capability in every other realm. This is nothing more than racism. You have to read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price about this, but I think you still demur because some silly person told you he supports eugenics, which is atrocious nonsense. Actually, I downloaded the book quite some time ago and read the whole thing. It's influenced a profound change in my attitude toward animal product consumption. You're right that someone told me Dr. Price was a eugenicist, but the only things I found in the book that raised my eyebrows were his connections between diet and criminal behavior, and diet and Down's Syndrome. In my view he did not do an effective job of establishing the causal linkage he outlined. I thought I had it on my computer somewhere, but I've just looked and I can't find it! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hakan This is a good point, remember Rómulo and Remo!!! Sven ___ Mecánica Agrícola Fac. Cs. Agrarias - UNCuyo e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Keith, Along with active and informed opposition to factory farming, industrialised farming and the food industry, that might be more effective than just condemning meat and meat-eaters. Meat is bad vs Do you know where that meat you're eating comes from? That particular meat. First, I never said Meat is bad. What I did say was Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food source. What I should have said is Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food staple. Humans can eat meat sustainably when, as we both have stated, it is eaten in moderation and is carefully farmed. As a matter of fact, my children eat meat and dairy as well. My choice to not eat meat is exactly that - my choice. I am careful about where it comes from, though, when they do eat it. The point being, from the beginning, that we Americans need to learn to eat less meat and less dairy. I'm not sure what the conditions are where you live but, where I live, try finding anything that doesn't contain either meat or dairy at a restaurant. In regards to the lack of traditionally vegetarian societies, isn't the Hindu community primarily meat-free? In fact aren't there many Asian cultures that incorporate little to no meat in their diets and have so for centuries if not longer? I have come to understand that meat as a food, has in many cultures, been more of a matter of convience for ages. A goat is food that could transport itself and also remains fresh without refrigeration until you are ready to eat it. I may not understand your meaning of a traditional vegetarian society or maybe I'm just wrong. When properly produced, dairy products are valuable food. They're an important part of sustainable agriculture, without them farming is less sustainable. What exactly, makes dairy products more valuable than other foods? Lets say grains for instance? How much wheat could be grown with the same water that is required to produce a gallon of milk? I have read quite a bit on this subject. My findings seem to keep indicating that the yields of grains are much higher with same water inputs. And as we all know water is one of our very most valuable resources. Likewise, I have read many times that dairy cattle tend to require a considerable amount of medication and I see no indication that cattle raised for organic milk are immune to that trend. I suppose that you might be correct about in that without dairy, agriculture becomes less sustainable. That is assuming that by this statement you mean that the milk would be wasted or that it is a resource left unexploited but, I think that a tremendous amount of research would need to be completed to determine the validity of that statement. A lactating cow's manure contains less nutrients to be returned to the soil because she is putting every possible nutrient into her milk to nurture her young. So her value to soil fertilization is reduced. Additionally, when considering the additional water consumed by the cow to produce the milk, is the milk of a greater value than the grain that you might be storing for the winter? How do you quantify these factors? I am pretty sure that our thinkings on these issues are fairly well in line with one another. For the record, I never said that milk was bad either, only that Americans in general consume entirely too much of it. Ultimately, this is a decision for the person making it, not me.. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
All that having been said, Pimental is right that soy and corn alone cannot replace our petroleum addiction Essentially, soybeans are not grown for their oil value. They're grown for the feed value, whether human destined or livestock. The oil is more a co-product, almost waste product in some respect. If oilseeds are to be grown for liquid fuel replacement, the focus must be on higher yielding crops, with a mix of others such as soy to meet the feed meal demands of populations. Were it not for the excessive demand for feed meal placed by the livestock industry, soy would not be the oilseed of predomenance. Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. Todd Swearingen John Hayes wrote: Thanks to a post at TDIclub, I discovered that Pimentel has released yet another report on ethanol. Looking at the dates below, he's a month ahead of schedule this year. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/03/8.14.03/Pimentel-ethanol.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/01/8.23.01/Pimentel-ethanol.html I can't speak to this newest report, but as long time readers of this list already know, Pimental's work has been repeatedly critiqued, and one of the main compliants it that he uses out of date numbers for yield and conversion efficiency. Here's a few links: http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-814.pdf http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_rooster.html http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm All that having been said, Pimental is right that soy and corn alone cannot replace our petroleum addiction jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. Interesting thought (basically the same reason that I gave up meat 6 years ago), I am curious how many American meat-eaters would give up the habit if it ever came down having your choice between meat or energy but not both. Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food source. And we didn't discuss the water that is also wasted, polluted and diverted in the process of raising animals for slaughter. The American obsession is cheese is another that just amazes me. I wonder what that price is a pound of cheddar would be were it not for farm and fuel subsidies. $.02, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hello John Thanks to a post at TDIclub, I discovered that Pimentel has released yet another report on ethanol. Looking at the dates below, he's a month ahead of schedule this year. You're right John, every year I have to do an update on it at our website: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Thanks for the links. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/03/8.14.03/Pimentel-ethanol.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/01/8.23.01/Pimentel-ethanol.html I can't speak to this newest report, but as long time readers of this list already know, Pimental's work has been repeatedly critiqued, and one of the main compliants it that he uses out of date numbers for yield and conversion efficiency. Here's a few links: http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-814.pdf http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_rooster.html http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm All that having been said, Pimental is right that soy and corn alone cannot replace our petroleum addiction Nothing can replace it, nor should, IMO. It's the addiction that's the problem, not the oil, and substitution is not the way to deal with it. Unless the addict can prise his attention away from the abused substance-of-choice he's just not going to take any notice of totally irrelevant stuff like alternatives, nor care. When it's backed by such vast resources of money and power and influence as petroleum is, it's hard to budge. Meanwhile it's wrecking the neighbourhood. Sure the other industrialised countries are not exactly blameless, but your lot's just ridiculous. They're like a bunch of folks sitting on the deck of a burning ship saying, Naah, that's not a fire, just a few flames, that's all, it's perfectly safe, the ship won't sink, it's not leaking. But they're not the only guys on the ship, and they won't listen to reason, instead they keep pouring gasoline on the fire because they say they're cold or something. We don't have to like it. Best Keith jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Ken Dunn wrote: Interesting thought (basically the same reason that I gave up meat 6 years ago), I am curious how many American meat-eaters would give up the habit if it ever came down having your choice between meat or energy but not both. The problem is not meat, per se, it's the manner in which beef, pork and poultry are being produced that creates such high resource strain. We could certainly thrive without fast food hamburgers and chicken, as humanity has done for a very long time. This doesn't have to be an either / or proposition. In the past, some people on this list have asked legitimate questions such as: What do I do with all the bull calves and roosters that are born on my ranch? or, What should I do with chickens and ducks that no longer lay eggs? The answer, obviously, is for someone to eat them. Perhaps the offal would be better used as dog food than supplemental protein for cattle and poultry. Maybe the bones could be ground up and applied to the soil again. Cow hide makes excellent leather for shoes and clothing. Chicken feathers make lovely pillow stuffing. We don't have to waste animal products to benefit from them. Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food source. In nearly every ecosystem on the planet (save for some very specialized ones) plants and animals live together. Eliminating animals from the equation will result in a different, but nonetheless unsustainable, paradigm. I don't eat meat, but my garden depends on composted bovine barn litter for its productivity. Recycling nutrient streams makes sense, eliminates the concept of waste, and promotes tilth. And we didn't discuss the water that is also wasted, polluted and diverted in the process of raising animals for slaughter. The American obsession is cheese is another that just amazes me. I wonder what that price is a pound of cheddar would be were it not for farm and fuel subsidies. Water usage is a HUGE problem. In the western United States, agriculture requires far more water than any other single use. Farmers grow rice in California, where much of it evaporates in the field, but any suggestion that the state restructure its water rights will be met with fierce opposition from powerful agriculture lobbies. I suspect the system will have to collapse before any real reform is possible. As for cheese, without subsidy it would probably be much more expensive than it is. My wife and I will spend our money on locally grown food even if it costs more, with the rationale that we neither smoke nor drink, so why not invest in health and support of our local farmers? Food remains very cheap in North America. My family spends about 10% of its monthly income on food, and if you came to dinner at our house, you'd realize before long that we eat very well! Having written this, it seems to me that any increase in food prices will likely hit poorer people significantly harder than it would those who have been blessed with my level of prosperity. I believe that your argument against the current food production paradigm contains many valid points, but we need to be careful to replace what we have with something that actually works well to feed everyone. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
A new process developed by the University of Wisconsin was posted on this board a while back (it's in the archives.) The process talks about green diesel and using the entire feedstock instead of just the fatty acids. I don't know the feasability of making this process a commercially accepted way of making bio, but if and/or when this happens, won't people who try to disprove bio fuel basically have to eat their words? Does anybody know how long it would/does take a processs like this to see the light of day in large scale commercial production, or does it depend on if they are forcefully bought out by the oll cumpnies? I would really like to see a process like this become more widespread. More energy, less cost, how can that be bad? Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hello Ryan A new process developed by the University of Wisconsin was posted on this board a while back (it's in the archives.) The process talks about green diesel and using the entire feedstock instead of just the fatty acids. I don't know the feasability of making this process a commercially accepted way of making bio, but if and/or when this happens, won't people who try to disprove bio fuel basically have to eat their words? Does anybody know how long it would/does take a processs like this to see the light of day in large scale commercial production, or does it depend on if they are forcefully bought out by the oll cumpnies? I would really like to see a process like this become more widespread. More energy, less cost, how can that be bad? Not in your backyard though - it's industrial stuff. Here's some more about it: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg45851.html [Biofuel] Re: Diesel from wood/biomass Best Keith Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
There's many trains of thought on this, Crop rotation is very important, there's a whole growing cycle that if used correctly increases soil fertility year on year. In new Zealand, we typically just feed our animals grass, with perhaps additional fodder such as corn waste or some of the root crops grown and market garden type foods such as squash, tomatoes, radishes. we also don't shelter our stock as in keep them in barns etc, they all live out side, there's been some research about this and it all points to animals grown outside are healthier than there indoor compatriots. there's a lot of research also in to stock shock, and exposure to the elements, I really feel sorry for the poor cattle out in the fields in the us with out so much as a tree to shelter them from the sun and wind. NZ has spent allot of time on soil and pasture research as its one the basis of our major exports in fact www.fonterra.com our major dairy company has carries allot of global weight with its products. have a look at http://www.fonterra.com/content/dairyingnz/linksresources/default.jsp for additional resources. its not possible for every country to use all the same practices as us, but the ones they do pick up, could be very rewarding in regards to organics its not impossible to grow organically, its a different set of rules, and requires more understanding of your local conditions, i.e. soil type, nutrient levels and such things as companion planting, you may not be able to go totally organic, but you can definitely cut back on broadcast spraying and dropping the levels of all your inputs needed. Cheers, Bede -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ken Dunn Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:25 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org; Keith Addison Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Meat is most certainly a sustainable food source. More than that, there is no sustainable way to maintain and renew soil fertility for crop growth without raising animals too. Nature never attempts it, and Man's attempts are doomed to failure - indeed, they are failing. Removing the animals would inevitably mean increased reliance on industrialised agriculture for crop production, and especially on fossil-fuels and chemical fertilisers, and therefore on pesticides too. Wall-to-wall GMOs, in the face of soaring oil costs, hm. Keith, Perhaps I overstated my case and simultaneously was not clear. But, you covered it for me anyway. You are correct, meat as a food source is viable but, I don't think that will continue to be as much of staple like it has been in the U.S. for the last few decades. Furthermore, I don't think that it could have been a staple to the degree that it has been if such a large portion of the world wasn't already somewhere between near-vegetarian and vegan. 6 billion people eating factory raised beef for 2 meals a day would take its toll on the environment pretty fast. You are correct, livestock definitely help us tend the soil but, that doesn't mean that you have to eat the animal for it to be beneficial to you. You could just as easily raise sheep for wool and still have livestock as a dual purpose barnyard companion. And again, have the added benefit of the meat when the sheep has become too old for shearing. Likewise, grazing work horses would provide even better nutrients to the soil if I understand correctly. Back to the original point though, corporate agrobusiness approach to meat farming means that the animal waste is nothing more than a toxic with which to pollute our streams. That same waste is not being used to fertilize the soil. The inputs and outputs of factory farming make that approach to a meat-centric diet unsustainable. Personally, I'd rather see the inputs going to raise grains or vegetables to help the parts of the world that are struggling to provide enough food for themselves right now. But organic farming can't feed everybody? I reckon it's the only thing that can, and it's spreading like a weed. But the crazed food distribution system will have to go, along with its billions of wasted food miles, and the corporate grip on it all will have to go too. For what its worth, I never said anything to the affect that organic farming couldn't feed everyone. In fact, I buy as much *local* *organic* fruits and vegetables as I can get a hold of. I certainly try to promote buying local as much as I can. One more thought, there are *very few* streams here Lancaster County Pennsylvania that I would consider swimming in or eating fish from. This is primarily due to the incredible amount of dairy cattle waste that finds its way into the water every day. That waste is coming directly from the source. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hello Ken Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Meat is most certainly a sustainable food source. More than that, there is no sustainable way to maintain and renew soil fertility for crop growth without raising animals too. Nature never attempts it, and Man's attempts are doomed to failure - indeed, they are failing. Removing the animals would inevitably mean increased reliance on industrialised agriculture for crop production, and especially on fossil-fuels and chemical fertilisers, and therefore on pesticides too. Wall-to-wall GMOs, in the face of soaring oil costs, hm. Keith, Perhaps I overstated my case and simultaneously was not clear. But, you covered it for me anyway. You are correct, meat as a food source is viable but, I don't think that will continue to be as much of staple like it has been in the U.S. for the last few decades. Yes, eat less of it. On the other hand, eat less of everything! Or of all the processed junk at least. Furthermore, I don't think that it could have been a staple to the degree that it has been if such a large portion of the world wasn't already somewhere between near-vegetarian and vegan. I think not. Most people eat a mixed diet. There is no traditional vegetarian society and never has been, it's not a sustainable system, sooner or later the soil fertility reserves wind down. 6 billion people eating factory raised beef for 2 meals a day would take its toll on the environment pretty fast. Indeed, but why should it have to be factory farmed? Outside the industrialised countries and industrialised urban centres elsewhere it's generally not factory farmed. You are correct, livestock definitely help us Not just help, animals are essential. tend the soil but, that doesn't mean that you have to eat the animal for it to be beneficial to you. Actually it does, eat them or compete with them. You could just as easily raise sheep for wool and still have livestock as a dual purpose barnyard companion. Yes. And again, have the added benefit of the meat when the sheep has become too old for shearing. Yes. Anyway, even with raising meat, you don't slaughter the breeders, just the offspring. Likewise, grazing work horses would provide even better nutrients to the soil if I understand correctly. Not so, horses are far inferior grazers to cattle and sheep. Back to the original point though, corporate agrobusiness approach to meat farming means that the animal waste is nothing more than a toxic with which to pollute our streams. That same waste is not being used to fertilize the soil. The inputs and outputs of factory farming make that approach to a meat-centric diet unsustainable. Quite right. Personally, I'd rather see the inputs going to raise grains or vegetables to help the parts of the world that are struggling to provide enough food for themselves right now. Not a good answer. Food aid only helps in emergencies, but disasters like famines usually wouldn't happen had there been timely development efforts which could have prevented them. Have a look at this, for instance: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? What parts of the world that are struggling to provide enough food for themselves really need is an equitable world economic system, fair trade not free trade, and less bullying by the G8 and the likes of the IMF. And their local lackeys. But organic farming can't feed everybody? I reckon it's the only thing that can, and it's spreading like a weed. But the crazed food distribution system will have to go, along with its billions of wasted food miles, and the corporate grip on it all will have to go too. For what its worth, I never said anything to the affect that organic farming couldn't feed everyone. I know you didn't, and good for you, but it's the usual objection. In fact, I buy as much *local* *organic* fruits and vegetables as I can get a hold of. I certainly try to promote buying local as much as I can. It makes so much sense, eh? One more thought, there are *very few* streams here Lancaster County Pennsylvania that I would consider swimming in or eating fish from. This is primarily due to the incredible amount of dairy cattle waste that finds its way into the water every day. That waste is coming directly from the source. It's a thoroughly lousy way of doing it and it has no future. But dairy farming itself certainly has a future. Take care, And you too. Best Keith Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Keith, Your make many points that give me reason for pause. However, I can wait for someone else to do something about the problems that exist or I can do something myself - done! The majority of U.S. citizens will continue to eat meat and larger quantities than responsible and probably of the cheapest factory farmed variety. I think that the animals not being raised for my personal consumption will benefit everyone more than were I to eat meat because of the benefit that it might hold for fertilization. Hopefully, I can offset the over consuption and thoughtless consumption of one other person. And we all know that we can't change anyone else. I have always thought of this as my contribution to the environment - hopefully just one of many. A point of interest, though, I don't know of any animal aside from humans that consume the milk of another animal, though, I'm sure there probably is at least one. Can someone name one? However, the concept of consuming the lactic fluids from a bovine seems rather bizarre. Those which are intended for its offspring as all milk is. I'm pretty sure that I can do without bovine hormones and antibodies. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
FWIW - My cat drinks milk from cows. Derek -- Original message -- From: Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Keith, Your make many points that give me reason for pause. However, I can wait for someone else to do something about the problems that exist or I can do something myself - done! The majority of U.S. citizens will continue to eat meat and larger quantities than responsible and probably of the cheapest factory farmed variety. I think that the animals not being raised for my personal consumption will benefit everyone more than were I to eat meat because of the benefit that it might hold for fertilization. Hopefully, I can offset the over consuption and thoughtless consumption of one other person. And we all know that we can't change anyone else. I have always thought of this as my contribution to the environment - hopefully just one of many. A point of interest, though, I don't know of any animal aside from humans that consume the milk of another animal, though, I'm sure there probably is at least one. Can someone name one? However, the concept of consuming the lactic fluids from a bovine seems rather bizarre. Those which are intended for its offspring as all milk is. I'm pretty sure that I can do without bovine hormones and antibodies. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: A point of interest, though, I don't know of any animal aside from humans that consume the milk of another animal, though, I'm sure there probably is at least one. Can someone name one? I have cats that like goat milk. Dogs will drink just about anything. It's a question of access, really. I suppose a fish swimming near a nursing whale may ingest the milk of another creature, and if you leave a bit of milk on the counter, you'll discover an amazing variety of small creatures that thrive within it. However, the concept of consuming the lactic fluids from a bovine seems rather bizarre. Those which are intended for its offspring as all milk is. Why is this bizarre? An adult cow produces more milk than her offspring needs, so why shouldn't we benefit from the excess? The same is true of goats and camels. It's true that some people don't tolerate milk very well, but others enjoy it on cereal or in drinks well into their senior years. Humans are opportunistic eaters capable of consuming and thriving on an incredibly wide variety of foods. Some people eat the gonads of shellfish, and some species of fish have to be carefully cooked so that their flesh does not kill the consumer. (How did we ever figure that one out?) The Masai drink the blood of their animals. Is that better, or worse? Does it matter? I'm pretty sure that I can do without bovine hormones and antibodies. Perhaps, but do you have any evidence to support the implied contention that natural bovine antibodies and hormones are detrimental to human health? Certainly the factory farm system that requires antibiotics, growth hormone injections and protein supplements introduces potential harm to our food supply. I know many Canadians who won't drink U.S. milk for that reason. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
