Re: [svg-developers] San Diego svg group?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, George–

If you don't have any luck finding a general SVG group, you might see if 
there are any d3.js groups in the area. It's a very popular SVG script 
library right now, and it does deal with some map types.

Regards–
-Doug

On 8/16/13 12:13 PM, george wrote:
 Greetings to all.
 I am interested in getting started creating maps in svg.
 Is there a group which meets in San Diego County?
 Thanks
 George





-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

[svg-developers] [ot] Standardizing a Geometry API

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, folks-

Some of us who are interested in having a geometry API available in 
browsers (for finding intersections, matrix operations, and sundry 
niceties) have started the W3C Geometry API community group [1][2].

We'd love for interested parties from this list to join the CG to help 
us define what this geometry API should look like.

(Sorry for the standardization emails on this list. I just think there's 
a large intersection of interested people... pun intended...)

[1] http://www.w3.org/community/geometryapi/
[2] http://www.w3.org/community/geometryapi/wiki/Main_Page

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

Thanks for the thoughtful and concrete reply.

On 6/7/13 10:25 PM, David Dailey wrote:

 You've made a lot of good points here about CSS being more popular
 than SVG: more people care; more people can edit the spec; the range
 of applicability (to HTML as well as SVG and other domains) is
 greater. And I appreciate the effort to expand the dialogue to
 svg-developers, since www-svg tends to be less about the philosophy
 of where SVG ought to go and more about how to get to wherever it is
 already known to be going.

 It sounds like we share the frustration about the sluggishness of
 progress with SVG text. As you know I've been teaching lots of folks
 to learn SVG, through both the W3C, in accredited educational
 channels and other venues, in most of the world's continents.
 Frustration about text handling in SVG is something, as an educator,
 I hear from a lot of folks. It's a shame that there is not an easier
 forum to let those frustrations boil up to the point that
 implementers might actually hear it!

You're right, and my own frustration on this is compounded by the fact
that W3C does provide just such a channel for feedback, the
www-...@w3.org list, but in many ways, that's inadequate... I could go
into details, but the long and the short is that it seems to be too high
a barrier for most people, and processing and tracking those comments
and suggestions is not an easy task... this is something that we hope
WebPlatform.org can help with in the future (but not quite yet).


 You mention frustrations with other like SMIL, and the list can be
 extended to include other topics as well, but text is the issue I'm
 fussing about here, so let me just respond to a couple of your
 questions.

 DS: What do you mean by much more? Wrapping text to arbitrary
 shapes? That is also coming, but as part of a more complex proposal
 that will also hopefully be part of SVG 2 (but may be deferred a
 bit, since we are trying to be have an aggressive schedule to move
 SVG 2 forward). br Simple CSS text wrapping is meant for the most
 common case, a basic rectangular area.

 Well, it is good to be able to confine and flow text into rectangles
 and into arbitrary shapes. Maybe I am not understanding the proposal.
 Confining text to a rectangle is something that is pretty easy to do
 with about 3 lines of JavaScript; even beginning students can do that
 in exercises.

True, and it's not much harder to wrap to certain other shapes (circles,
triangles, etc.) using script, but a declarative solution is better (and
easier for designers).


 I suppose it wouldn't matter too much if browsers implemented SVG in
 HTML or HTML in SVG consistently, but consistency in foreignObject
 iframe object embed frame all seem to be areas that
 implementations have decided to ignore. There are lots of examples
 of inconsistency reported over the years here and at www-svg.

We have a spec, SVG Integration, that should address those inconsistencies.


 Maybe they've all been fixed, but I rather doubt it, since my
 personal experience as a seasoned developer is that browsers are
 diverging rather than converging in consistency in their
 implementations, for the complicated stuff. Happily, the simple stuff
 is reaching consolidation!

The key here is testing. I think the reason you are perceiving increased
inconsistency is rather because more parts of the spec are implemented
by more browsers, and we need more tests to make sure they do it right.

The is where the Test the Web Forward project will help. That's a 
crowdsourcing effort (started by Adobe) to contribute tests to W3C for 
inclusion in our test suites, to make sure that browser vendors have 
even clearer implement guidelines and coordination.


 Text handling should include

This is a great list of concrete suggestions. Some of them are already
being addressed in SVG 2 (or are planned to be), and some will still
need to be considered. I'll try to triage them here and let you know
where I understand the state of them to be... I'll also pass it along to
the SVG WG.


 a) methods to select text through dragging, double clicking etc.

Though I agree with you, and add that text should also be findable in
the document just like HTML text is, this is not something that the spec
normally would define, since it's a quality of implementation issue,
and because it may not be applicable to all UA; nevertheless, I think we
could try to put in a should on this in the spec, on the section for
interactivity. I would add

BTW, most browsers already let you do this; Firefox has a
long-outstanding bug about this, and I think it's the final lagger.
Cameron MacCormack has recently put in a considerable amount of effort
in revamping Firefox's text handling, and tied it into their CSS engine,
which allows you to select it just as you would expect; I think his
refinements will be released in the next few months.


 b) ability to click between characters and allow insertion of new
 text at the 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Joe-

Hi, On 6/7/13 11:59 AM, Joe Doll wrote:

 My only input is that the text wrapping feature should be able to be
 turned on and off. If you don't, people will want to do things with
 text, and the wrapping will be trying to make sure that they don't.

Great point. I'll make sure to specify that the default is to have all 
the text on a single line (like it is today) and that the wrapping only 
applies when there is a width specified for the text.

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Andrew-

Thanks for your feedback.

On 6/6/13 4:42 AM, AndrewB wrote:

 Wrapping text using the CSS box model seems like a great idea to me
 because it means I (and others) only have to become familiar with one
 model for most text layout tasks.

Yup. I think that's the real power of the proposal: it leverages the 
general developer knowledge base, and simplifies the Open Web Platform 
in general.


 I also like the simplicity of the overflow property suggested here
 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Wrapping_Text and if
 I read it correctly, the proposed simplicity of controlling what
 happens on overflow e.g. overflow = visible or clipped though I do
 think the refinements on this are important i.e. it is important to
 include values  to allow the author control over whether clipped
 text renders in part, in whole, or not at all

That's correct, if we want to add these options, we would have to extend 
CSS's 'overflow' a bit to allow it to hide or fully show clipped text (I 
guess that would be 2 new keywords); we'd thus have to convince the CSS 
WG that that particular use case is worth it, so if you have concrete 
examples where that would be useful, please let me know!

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, folks-

Some of you may remember me, though I haven't been very active in this 
list for a while. I work for W3C, I'm on the SVG Working Group, and I've 
been developing SVG apps and docs since about 2000 (though I'm a little 
rusty with development :D). I'm writing today to mention a proposal for 
the SVG 2 spec, and to solicit feedback.

Over the years, I've spoken to many people who use SVG, and one of the 
pain points they remark on is wrapping text (aka multi-line text or 
flowing text).

For a while now, we've planned to allow text wrapping into arbitrary 
shapes, most recently as part of the CSS regions, exclusions, and shapes 
specs. But those might take a while.

In the short term, I think there's room for simple text wrapping based 
on CSS's box model. Effectively, by providing a width to a text 
element in SVG, it would wrap the text to that width.

I think this is a pretty simple proposal, and it could be implemented 
fairly quickly after being specced out in SVG 2.

You can read more about my rough proposal here:
* http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Wrapping_Text
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2013Jun/0007.html
* http://schepers.cc/its-a-wrap
* http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width.svg
* http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width-tspan.svg

As regular users of SVG, I'd like to know if there are any 
considerations we should take into account, if you feel this would meet 
your needs for use in SVG, or if you have any concerns.

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeff-

Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

On 6/5/13 11:01 AM, Jeff Schiller wrote:

 I guess that height would also be needed for vertical fonts?

Yes.

CSS is a bit clumsy there, unlike XSL-FO, but as improvements come on 
the internationalization front in CSS, SVG would just inherit those for 
free.


 I think I saw you mention that in one of your links...  I can't
 really figure out how this would work for a text with a mixture of
 spans of horizontal / vertical text, but that's why I don't write
 specs! :)

That's a good question; I reckon the answer is that it would work just
as with an HTML p with a mix of vertical and horizontal spans. The
output might not be pretty (just as it may not with HTML), but the
behavior should be no different.


 What if a text element has a textPath in it?  If a word on a path
 would be displayed outside of the text's width, what should happen?

Another excellent question.

There are two options:

1) All text in SVG is flattened (e.g., virtually removed from its
containing child elements, such as tspan or textPath), and laid out
according to the parent text width;

2) textPath content is not treated as part of the text layout, and
follows its own rules.

I favor the latter. What about you?

BTW, we had planned to allow the textPath element to stand alone in
SVG 2, with no need for a containing text element parent, as part of
an overall simplification of the language for authors; what do you think
about that?


 Would the whitespace property work with this (i.e. what values, if
 any, would be supported for the CSS whitespace property)?

 Would overflow-wrap/word-wrap: break-word work with this? (i.e. for
 words that are longer than the text area is wide)

 Would any of these CSS properties be supported: line-break,
 word-break, hyphens?

The answer to all of these is the same: SVG text would be part of the
CSS box model, with all the flexibility that CSS offers for text layout,
most likely including margins and padding (but probably not floats).
This includes whitespace, overflow (and scroll), and hyphenation.

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Wade-

Thanks for the affirmation.

I'll keep this list informed as we make edits to the spec.

I hope to keep this proposal pretty simple: basically, SVG text would 
just become CSS box-model text.

Regards-
-Doug


On 6/5/13 8:50 AM, G. Wade Johnson wrote:
 Hi Doug,

 On Wed, 05 Jun 2013 02:57:42 -0400
 Doug Schepers d...@schepers.cc wrote:

 Hi, folks-

 Some of you may remember me, though I haven't been very active in
 this list for a while. I work for W3C, I'm on the SVG Working Group,
 and I've been developing SVG apps and docs since about 2000 (though
 I'm a little rusty with development :D). I'm writing today to mention
 a proposal for the SVG 2 spec, and to solicit feedback.

 Over the years, I've spoken to many people who use SVG, and one of
 the pain points they remark on is wrapping text (aka multi-line text
 or flowing text).

 For a while now, we've planned to allow text wrapping into arbitrary
 shapes, most recently as part of the CSS regions, exclusions, and
 shapes specs. But those might take a while.

 In the short term, I think there's room for simple text wrapping
 based on CSS's box model. Effectively, by providing a width to a
 text element in SVG, it would wrap the text to that width.

 Definitely agreed.

 I think this is a pretty simple proposal, and it could be implemented
 fairly quickly after being specced out in SVG 2.

 The proposal looks quite good as a starting point. I can imagine it
 being extended unnecessarily before actually being added. But that may
 just be because I'm cynical.

 You can read more about my rough proposal here:
 * http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Wrapping_Text
 * http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2013Jun/0007.html
 * http://schepers.cc/its-a-wrap
 * http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width.svg
 * http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width-tspan.svg

 As regular users of SVG, I'd like to know if there are any
 considerations we should take into account, if you feel this would
 meet your needs for use in SVG, or if you have any concerns.

 What you've proposed would handle every case I can think of where I
 have personally needed text wrapping. I don't do really fancy SVG, but
 the proposal would solve the problems I've had.

 G. Wade







-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

Thanks for the honest response. I'll try to address your comments as 
best I can, and I hope you can bear with me in detailing your issues so 
we can arrive at a mutual understanding of the situation.


On 6/5/13 10:41 AM, David Dailey wrote:

 I suspect you already know that I’ll not be happy until much more is
 accomplished

What do you mean by much more? Wrapping text to arbitrary shapes? That 
is also coming, but as part of a more complex proposal that will also 
hopefully be part of SVG 2 (but may be deferred a bit, since we are 
trying to be have an aggressive schedule to move SVG 2 forward).

Simple CSS text wrapping is meant for the most common case, a basic 
rectangular area.


 and am rather dismayed that it has taken more than a
 decade to get even rudimentary text areas into SVG in a way that will
 work across browsers.

Same here, which is why I'm trying as hard as I can to push this 
forward, and trying to drum up support for it, to illustrate to the 
browser vendors that this should be a priority.


 Coupling the fate of SVG with developments in CSS seems like putting
 the cart before the horse and seems to be slowing down progress in
 SVG.

In my view, it's just the opposite (as I may have mentioned to you 
before). Here's a rationale:

1) We have limited people editing the specs for SVG; having people from 
the CSS WG edit specs increases both the number and the range of 
expertise of people available to edit (for example, Alan Stearns is an 
expert in arbitrary text-wrapping from years of work on InDesign, etc., 
and is editing the CSS Shapes spec, which SVG will use);

2) SVG is *much* less popular than CSS, and is therefore a much lower 
priority for implementers; by piggybacking on features defined in CSS, 
we increase the likelihood and the speed of initial implementation, and 
decrease the cost and improve the rate of maintenance; this may also 
make the browsers more favorably disposed toward SVG in general, because 
it's less work for them;

3) By sharing features with CSS/HTML, we dramatically increase the 
number of authors (developers and designers) who are familiar with and 
excited by the feature, decreasing the barrier to entry for people just 
starting out with SVG who are already familiar with CSS and HTML (e.g., 
the overwhelming majority).

The downside, of course, is that there is a little bit of adjustment up 
front... growing pains. The SVG WG is doing extra work to clean up SVG 2 
and make sure things are defined in a way that works well with CSS (and 
working with the CSS WG to ensure that they define things in a way that 
works for SVG). Some implementations are being adjusted. But on the 
whole, it shouldn't affect authors that much (mostly the aforementioned 
delays on new features), and it should pay big dividends going forward. 
And I don't really see many other downsides.


On the particular topic of this thread, text-wrapping, there is no 
evidence to support the notion that coordinating with CSS is slowing us 
down (in fact, the CSS WG's advice was extremely helpful), and explicit 
evidence to show that this feature would not have moved forward if it 
were SVG-only: SVG Tiny 1.2 has had a very well-defined textArea 
element [1] for text wrapping that has been around for 4.5 years (!), 
and has only one browser implementation, Opera (and it's possible 
Opera's implementation may go away as they move their engine from Presto 
to Blink... a real shame...). By contrast, within a day of suggesting 
this to Cameron MacCormack, he had a rough first-pass implementation of 
text wrapping using 'width', precisely because it came for nearly free 
by using CSS.


I suspect that part of your frustration is not moving features to CSS 
in general, but rather the specific topic of SMIL (and maybe also SVG 
Fonts). This was not so much a matter of CSS, as it was the specific 
decisions of Microsoft, Google, Apple, and to some degree Mozilla, all 
disliked SMIL, and some refused to implement it (or planned to remove 
existing code bases); it was simply not going to be interoperable, and 
for most authors, that's a deal-killer. The good news is that, in 
addition to all the script libraries out there that let you animate in 
SVG, the new Web Animations 1.0 spec [2] was approved for First Public 
Working Draft; it is generally more powerful and easier to use than SMIL 
[3], and a declarative syntax for SVG is planned that should mimic SMIL 
as much as possible for backwards compatibility.


If I've misinterpreted or misunderstood the nature of your concerns, 
please set me straight.


 I suspect my sentiments on such matters are already well known, but I
 would be remiss in my obligation to other authors who share this
 perspective if I did not say it again.

Forgive my ignorance, but is this a common sentiment? I don't hear it 
expressed much; most of the time when I mention that SVG is deferring to 
CSS on functionality, it's met with relief, because more people 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, James-

On 6/5/13 7:52 PM, jamesd wrote:
 --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Schepers wrote:

 As regular users of SVG, I'd like to know if there are any
 considerations we should take into account, if you feel this would
 meet your needs for use in SVG, or if you have any concerns.

 In my opinion there is no need for this. Since it is quite easy to
 allow other file formats that are not open source to be introduced
 into the specs (WOFF fonts) why not just introduce the CSS Div and p
 (paragraph element) into the spec?

 This way all text handling could be easily handled and the need for
 HTML would be negated.

You can already use div and p in SVG, inside the ungainly 
foreignObject element; it would be nice if this were easier (maybe an 
html element?), and we've discussed some proposals in the SVG WG, but 
so far we haven't found consensus with the implementers.

Adding div and p as elements directly in SVG would actually cause a 
conflict in the markup parser (i.e., it would kick the parser out of 
SVG mode and back into HTML mode).


(Whether or not something is open source isn't really relevant from a 
technical perspective... but fwiw, WOFF and OpenType are open formats, 
even if they are binary and even if the contents may be under copyright.)


 See:

 https://googledrive.com/host/0B_A5rZ_7DsD2WGVSc1hpRnVCdk0/jcdsvg_1.html

  I know you are prone to complicated solutions to problems that don't
 exist (Parameters), but I prefer simplicity.

Perhaps you don't see a use for Params, but many people have asked me to 
move it forward because it's just what they need, and it is not 
particularly complicated to understand or use.

I also favor simplicity. Reasonable people can disagree about what 
constitutes simple.

The solution you propose on your site may seems simple on the surface, 
and does have a certain elegance, but it's more complex than it appears, 
to specify and to implement. Still, I'd like to get to that point.

But for for labels and short runs of text (a very common use case), this 
doesn't seem particularly complex to me:

svg ...
  style
  text {
width: 300px;
height: 500px;
  }
  /style

  text x=10 y=25Some text to be wrapped goes here./text
/svg

For more complex case, like lists, tables, multiple paragraphs, etc., 
you will need to use inline HTML; again, hopefully we can make that 
simpler in the future.


Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jason-

On 6/5/13 11:42 PM, Jason Barnabas wrote:
 I would love to have text wrapping, even if it's only in a
 box to start with. This will beat the multi-line or text on
 a path I have been using.

 If you could fill a shape with justified text that would be
 even more awesome.

Yes, that should be possible, since we'll just be using the CSS box 
model, which allows justified text.


 Thanks for your work and letting me put my two cents in.

Thanks for your feedback, and for using SVG!

Regards-
-Doug





-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Title or desc tag in text tag?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Pranav-

I've spent a good bit of time doing SVG accessibility research, and I'm 
interested in what you're doing here.  Just for some background, I 
hacked a browser-extension screen -reader, FireVox, to support SVG, and 
tested various kinds of data visualizations for their general usefulness.

I found that one of the most annoying things was hearing extraneous or 
duplicate information.  It was very hard to contextualize data 
visualizations anyway, but when the same information was duplicated in a 
visible text label (text element) and a title and/or description 
(title and desc elements), it cluttered the aural landscape, 
detracting from, not enhancing, the accessibility.

So, yes, you are allowed to use title and desc as children of 
text, but in my experience, you should do so very sparingly, and only 
when the title differs significantly from the text content, or 
contextualizes it.  As a general rule of thumb, title should only be 
used when it is critical for the parent element to be rendered to the AT.

You also cannot count on title being displayed as a tooltip in all 
browsers, fwiw...

The sad fact with Assistive Technologies is that they are very late to 
the game in supporting SVG.  The SVG WG is trying to fix that, but we've 
got a way to go to define things well and get them implemented.  AT 
usually doesn't support SVG at all, and when it does, it doesn't 
necessarily pick out the most important bits... It should pick out 
text, tspan, textPath, title, desc, etc. and read those off to 
the user, but it doesn't always.

As another tip... though ARIA isn't guaranteed to work with SVG today, 
you should also use it appropriately, such as using @aria-describedby to 
denote a label, since that's the direction we're headed (and I've heard 
a rumor that it works in IE9).

What you can do to help move these issues forward is to write up 
use-cases and requirements, and real-world examples of usage, and 
minimal test cases, and give those to the SVG WG to help clarify and 
find consensus about what is needed.

Regards-
-Doug


Pranav Lal wrote (on 5/3/11 12:12 PM):
 Hi James,

 Like you, I am going for the namespace approach. However, I am trying to
 find a simpler way that I can use for SVG. Unfortunately, the viewer I am
 using as of now does not support certain aspects of text in SBG. For
 instance, though it is legal for me to imbed adesc  tag in atext  tag,
 the viewer will not speak. The manufacturor of the viewer has his own schema
 which works nicely.

 I am using a third party component to generate my SVG. I was hoping to find
 a way around adapting to the manufacturor's schema but there is no help for
 it. I will have to derive the structure of the SVG file and add the relevant
 namespaces and elements.

 Pranav

 -Original Message-
 From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
 On Behalf Of james_ingram_svg
 Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:21 PM
 To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Title or desc tag in text tag?



 Hi Pranav,
 I asked a very similar question a few months ago about including MIDI info
 in musical scores written in SVG. [1]

 The answer I got lead to me using a custom namespace to include the temporal
 info I needed. Its a much more flexible solution than just using thetitle
 ordesc  tags.
 My namespace [2] just contains MIDI info, but I'd be very interested in
 hearing how you realize spoken text.

 best,
 James

 [1]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Oct/0160.html
 [2]http://james-ingram-act-two.de/svgScoreExtensions.html

 --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
 mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com  , Pranav Lalpranav.lal@...
 wrote:

  Hi David,

  Many thanks for your answer. I am working on creating SVG files for an
  accessible SVG viewer and am trying to get them to speak. More on that
  once the program is released.

  Pranav




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] text selection don't work in use

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Andreas-

Andreas wrote (on 3/26/11 10:40 AM):
 Text selection works fine in any browser (yes in Fox4 too, but you can't see 
 the selection).

I can't select discrete runs of text in FF4. I can only do select-all. 
Am I missing something?


 In some tests, it seems to me, that text in ause  can't select, but in Fox. 
 Is this right?

I could argue it either way.  This aspect of the shadow-DOM is murky.

While I see the desirability of text-selection in use, I could also 
see why the text would simply be treated as a visual representation 
within a use element, and not be selectable.  tref should be 
selectable, but that isn't yet implemented in FF.

The spec is totally underspecified on this point.  Implementations, 
accordingly, differ.

FF and Opera don't allow text selection in use.  WebKit (Safari, 
Chrome) do.  Opera and WebKit allow text selection of tref.  I haven't 
yet tested IE9 for any of this.

The most interesting behavior around text selection is Opera 11... when 
you select the original text, the used text also shows the selection 
rendering.  Kinda cool.  Lends itself to the argument that the effect is 
visual, not a reflection of the original DOM, at least in Opera.

Here's a sample file:
   http://schepers.cc/svg/text-use.svg


SVG 2 will specify all this.  What do people think is the best behavior?


Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] explaining setAttribute, setAttributeNS and carburetors

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jacob-

Jacob Beard wrote (on 10/17/10 3:59 AM):
 Note: DOM Level 1 methods are namespace ignorant. Therefore, while it
 is safe to use these methods when not dealing with namespaces, using
 them and the new ones at the same time should be avoided.

Thanks for digging that up.  I think the author of that may actually 
have been a bit confused... or at least, they didn't state the facts 
clearly.  (There may have been a bit of propagandizing there, as well, 
to get people to use XML namespaces more, perhaps.)

Indeed, if you try to set a namespaced attribute with setAttribute(), it 
won't work correctly... the attribute will be placed in the null 
namespace.  So, when you use

  el.setAttribute( xlink:href, #foo );

it's the equivalent of using

  el.setAttributeNS( null, xlink:href, #foo );

where the local node-name (unintuitively) is 'xlink:href', not 'href' in 
the XLink namespace.

But that's only when you're dealing with namespaces.  Since most 
attributes are in the null namespace, and setAttribute() places 
everything in the null namespace, then these are equivalent and 
perfectly safe:

  el.setAttribute( fill, #f00 );
  el.setAttributeNS( null, fill, #f00 );


As an aside, this is actually a rather poor design, which could have 
been made better if they had simply accounted for hardcoded prefixed to 
be bound to specific namespaces, rather than introducing the arbitrary 
level of abstraction where any namespace could have any prefix string; 
this is made a bit simpler in HTML5, which does define a few hardcoded 
prefixes for namespaces.  Maybe in some future version of XML, XML 
Namespaces, or the like, this can be be expanded beyond HTML.

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] explaining setAttribute, setAttributeNS and carburetors

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

ddailey wrote (on 10/16/10 9:39 PM):

 I know that
  R.setAttributeNS(null,fill, red)is the proper construction (for SVG
 but not HTML), rather than

Actually, that works with any XML language, XHTML included (provided it 
is real XHTML, and not served as text/html).


  R.setAttribute(fill, red)I also know that in every SVG viewer I have
 seen, the latter has equivalent behavior to the former (for SVG but not
 HTML), .

Both are fine for SVG; they are equivalent in this case.  The only place 
they are not equivalent is when the attribute is in a separate 
namespace, as with xlink:href; then, unfortunately, setAttributeNS is 
needed.  Another example of namespaced attributes is certain metadata 
attributes, or custom attributes; both Illustrator and Inkscape produce 
these, so it's good to have a grounding in them for advanced SVG stuff.

But in this case, the only thing to know there is that (for whatever 
reason) attributes are generally in the 'null' namespace (*not* in the 
SVG or HTML or whatever host-language namespace).  I recommend teaching 
setAttribute for normal attributes, and setAttributeNS only for xlink:href.


(Note that a younger me was rather outspoken about using setAttributeNS, 
as I thought it clarified the subtleties of namespaces through making 
them explicit.  I no longer feel that way, and think that people should 
do what is easiest; there is a little pain involved in learning 
namespaces, and as much as possible, we should remove that pain.  Bad 
Younger Me, no cookie.)


 I think I was told once that the SVG spec (or maybe it is the XML spec, or
 one or another DOM spec), for some mysterious reason, leaves room for some
 future browser manufacturer to make a browser in which the latter
 construction wouldn't work.

I don't believe any spec says so, but even if it does, that's not going 
to happen.  The current trend is for increased API simplicity, so newer 
specs and existing browsers will not go that way.  setAttribute is safe 
and future-proof.

Hope that helps-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] planetsvg.com down

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

ddailey wrote (on 10/7/10 7:49 PM):

 There used to be a link on svg.org that talked about server
 configuration issues (mime types and the like). The SVG Primer
 pointed to it. Then it went away, so we found a place on Planet Svg
 that seemed to have even better information and redirected the
 pointer to that. But now, sigh, that is down too.

I created that page, so I actually had a local copy to use.  I've 
reinstated it here (which I believe was the original location):
  http://planetsvg.com/tools/mime.php

It's not pretty (I still need to style it), but it's functional.  You 
can test it using this URL I've set up to have the incorrect MIME Type 
(image/svg-xml, note the - rather than +):
  http://planetsvg.com/tools/tests/wrong-mime/test.svg


 Does anyone know of another good place to refer students to info on
 server configuration until Planet SVG is back up?

I don't plan on changing the server anymore, and if I do, I will try to 
make sure that that page stays at a stable location.  Sorry for the 
disruption in service.

It occurs to me that I could try to host that on the W3C site, as a 
complement to the validator services.  That would be an even more stable 
location.  Would you like me to check into that?

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] planetsvg.com down

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jake-

Jacob Beard wrote (on 10/6/10 8:51 AM):

 Does anyone know who runs planetsvg.com? The site has been down for at
 least the past several days (returning HTTP 500 Internal Server
 Error), and e-mails sent to the webmas...@planetsvg.lnlabs.com e-mail
 address mentioned in the returned error message also bounce back.

I own the domain, but it was hosted on Rob Russell's server.  He's had 
some problems with it (I don't know the nature), and he's said he'll get 
the original content to me.  I expect that I'll probably go back to 
hosting it in a rather stripped-down, easily-maintained form.

What specific features should I retain?  What are you using 
planetsvg.com for, and what's important to you?  Any help in maintaining 
and improving it for the future would be very welcome.

Thanks-
-Doug





-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] is there a way to reload group from source?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote (on 9/5/10 10:33 AM):
 is there a way to reloadgroup  from source?

 the document contains a large group every line of which is altered
 using script, in this case four stopwatches.

 obviously one could cycle with script through every object and reset
 to zero**,  but is there a way to just reload the group from the
 source code of the document?

I don't know of a way to reload the element, per se.

However, if you know in the beginning that you want to treat the g 
element (and its children) this way, you can make a deep clone of the 
g, and simply replace the original g with the clone in order to 
refresh it.

Here's some untested rough code:

var originalG = null;
var currentG = null;

function init() {
  currentG = document.getElementById(watch-g);
  originalG = currentG.cloneNode(true); // 'true' means copy all the 
children, too
}

function reload () {
  currentG.parentNode.replaceChild( originalG, currentG );
  originalG = currentG.cloneNode(true); // save a new fresh copy for later
}


 if not, would this merit taking to the wg?
 if not, why not?

This would not be an issue for the SVG WG, but for the DOM folks in the 
WebApps WG.  But since this is not a overwhelmingly common use case, and 
there is relatively easy (if convoluted) workaround, I doubt that there 
would be much will among the browser vendors to add new functionality to 
allow you to properly reload portions of the document; if for no other 
reason, it would force them to cache 2 copies in memory, doubling the 
memory footprint of each document.

Hope that helps.

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Audio in SVG

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, folks-

Juca, you silly Inkscape developer, SVG Tiny 1.2 is for mobiles, and it 
has audio and video elements.

Raks, you may be able to use a data URI as the href attribute value of 
the audio element in SVG Tiny 1.2; it depends on the implementation. 
While SVG doesn't explicitly mention it, it is perfectly valid; data 
URIs are spelled out in RFC-2397.

Here's an example of it [1], using an HTML audio element in an SVG, 
but the principle is the same... just use the data URI in the SVG 
audio element instead (don't forget to use the SVG syntax instead of 
the HTML syntax, in your case.


[1] http://schepers.cc/svg/multimedia/audio-datauri.svg

Regards-
-Doug



Felipe Sanches wrote (on 8/23/10 10:44 AM):
 oh...
 I believe that the only way to do it in a standards compliant way is using
 html5 audio.

 Non-standards-compliant ways include using dirty-Flash :-P

 On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Raks Araks...@gmail.com  wrote:



  Thanks but I do not have the option of using HTML5 as I want to do this in
  mobiles which do not support HTML5

  On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 7:26 PM, Felipe 
 Sanchesfelipe.sanc...@gmail.comfelipe.sanches%40gmail.com
  wrote:


you can checkout this directory from my svn:
  
  
  
 http://code.google.com/p/felipesanches/source/browse/#svn/trunk/SVG/minigames/TuxVsMSNbug
  
it contains a demo of using SVG with base64 encoded audio created using
html5 audio tag
  
Happy Hacking,
Felipe Juca Sanches
  
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Raks 
 Araks...@gmail.comrakssvg%40gmail.com
  wrote:
  


  Hi,

  Is there a way I can embed the sound effects into a SVG file without a
http
  link
  something we can do for an image like
  image xlink:href=data:image/png;base64,/9j/4A.

  Here the bytes for the image are put inside the svg file itself

  This way i can have small sound effects as the animation flows without
the
  browser requring to go to the server again

  - Raks




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Did Examotion go out of business?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Paul-

paulroubekas wrote (on 8/18/10 10:26 AM):
 The URL does not work anymore. They had an SVG viewer called RENESIS

 http://www.examotion.com

My understanding is that they did go out of business.

Since the next version of all major browsers will support SVG, their SVG 
viewer was perhaps less interesting than the fact that they had some 
good authoring tools, which they did not seem to release or promote. 
It's a pity. :(

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] HOWTO: opposite clip

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Folks-

I think David is right, a mask is the correct thing to do here, but it's 
not very intuitive.

It does seem strange that there is no easy way to reverse the clip-path. 
  Last week, I filed a feature request to add it in SVG 2; that doesn't 
help right now, but it will make things easier in the future.

  http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2354

Regards-
-Doug


ddailey wrote (on 7/31/10 8:42 PM):
 Interesting question. It seems so natural that I wondered if I hadn't
 missed a flag in the definition of the clip-path attribute that might
 not do exactly that, but if it is there I don't see it.

 But your reason for not using a mask isn't clear. Last I checked,
 this example works just fine in Chrome and Safari:

 mask id=Ma rect x=0 y=0 height=100% width=100%
 fill=white/ ellipse cx=55% cy=190 rx=15% ry=60
 fill=black/ /mask

 image
 xlink:href='http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/thesoul2.jpg'
 y=110 x=35% width=35% height=160 mask=url(#Ma)/

 The image is clipped to the opposite of the ellipse.

 Hope this helps.

 David


 - Original Message - From: iliribur To:
 svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:05 AM
 Subject: [svg-developers] HOWTO: opposite clip

 Hi.

 I want to do opposite clipping. Everything outside clipping path
 should be visible. Masking is excluded here, as it is not supported
 yet by the WebKit.

 I can add shape covering whole drawing area to the clipping path, but
 reversing coordinates. Problem is: duplicated paths, transformation
 calculating twice same coordinates + reversed coordinates for
 clipping path.

 Is it possible to use same path for drawing and clipping, but
 clipping will do opposite? I'm developing game where upper layer
 should mask lower layer to achieve better performance.

 For example, parallax effect drawing front to back, where upper layer
 will mask lower layer.

 Thanks in advance.






-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] SVG 1.1 (Second Edition) Specification in PDF?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Robert-

Robert Schwalbe wrote (on 7/18/10 12:15 PM):
 Is the SVG 1.1 (Second Edition) Specification available as a PDF file?

 I am aware of the W3C specification (html) at:

   http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-SVG11-20100622/

 but I've been searching for the pdf equivalent for some time time to
 no avail. Having to purchase a copy would also be acceptable.

We can make a PDF version of the specification, once we are in Proposed 
Recommendation phase and it's more stable.  That's going to be a few 
months, though.  Do you need it sooner than that?

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[svg-developers] Re: SVG-in-Daisy

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Guys-

As one of the list moderators, I have tried to stop this.  I've looked
through the subscriber list for a clue as to how this is getting
forwarded, but nothing obvious was there.  I have asked the SVG-in-Daisy
moderators to look into the problem several times, but they have no idea
what's going on, either.  I've explained to them how disruptive this is
to our community, but they don't seem to know how to stop it.

If anyone has any suggestion what else I could do to solve it, I'm all
ears.  It really annoys me too.

I'm not so impressed with the Yahoo list service that I wouldn't be
willing to shift to a different list server, which would solve that
problem.  We could even attempt to migrate the list archives, for
continuity's sake.  What would people think of that?

Regards-
-Doug

Bradley Neuberg wrote (on 1/16/09 9:25 PM):
 +1 on fixing this. The Lyris ListManager bounce emails are confusing and
 should stop.
 
 On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Christophe Strobbe 
 christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be wrote:
 
   Hi,

 I contacted the Daisy consortium and they think that the Yahoo group
 may have been set up to echo posts to the DAISY
 list. Any member of the Yahoo group who is not on the DAISY list
 would get the message from Lyris ListManager.
 I don't know who moderates this list, but could they please check how
 our messages get relayed to SVG-in-Daisy?

 This issue has been commented on before, e.g.:
 * http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/60522,
 * http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/60606,
 * http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/60870.

 Best regards,

 Christophe

 --
 Christophe Strobbe
 K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD
 Research Group on Document Architectures
 Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442
 B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
 BELGIUM
 tel: +32 16 32 85 51
 http://www.docarch.be/
 ---
 Please don't invite me to LinkedIn, Facebook, Quechup or other
 social networks. You may have agreed to their privacy policy, but
 I haven't.

 Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Firefox2 vs Firefox3 (code)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Samy-

Samuel Dagan wrote (on 12/16/08 3:27 PM):
 
 Just by a superficial look on your code, you better change: 
 fill = symbole.getAttribute(fill);
 with : 
 fill = symbole.getAttributeNS(null,fill);
 (Look at http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/ )
 
 Hope that this will do the job.

Having been guilty of propagating this myth myself, I have to state that
this is not at all important, and is not the cause of any error.  If you
aren't using namespaces (like XLink), you don't need to use
getAttributeNS... getAttribute works just as well with the null
namespace, so the code is correct as it stands.

Julie, I would recommend that you strip down the code to a minimal test
case that demonstrates exactly what the error is.  You can you the
Firefox error console, or a debugging extension, to figure out where
that is.

Regards-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Interesting claim about Silverlight

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

Brilliantly, hilariously written.  You should repost this in a blog for
wider exposure and posterity.

Regards-
-Doug

ddailey wrote (on 10/10/08 9:54 PM):
 I noticed tonight that the number of hits returned by Google to a
 search of Silverlight now slightly exceeds the number for SVG
 (16.3 million to 16.0 million in my search from the Eastern US using
 IE for Windows)[1].
 
 So I followed up with a bit of reading on Silverlight in
 Wikipedia[2]. In Wikipedia's collective evolution toward making
 arguments balanced, I noticed a) that the first reference to SVG in
 that article appears, to my thinking, just a little bit late for
 something which is, in fact, so directly derived from an open
 standard [3] and b) that when SVG is finally mentioned (rather near
 the end of the article), one person is cited as denouncing
 Microsoft's ignoring of open standards Another person is cited with
 a rather interesting contrasting argument I had never heard before.
 To paraphrase comments attributed to David Betz a .Net specialist, 
 Microsoft would have altered the SVG specification to integrate it
 with .NET, rather than the reverse. Consequently, he thinks the
 'choice by Microsoft to use XAML over SVG, served to retain the SVG
 standard by not adding proprietary technology [to SVG]'.  Hmmm... I
 thought; perhaps Microsoft has been supporting standards after all.
 They have chosen not to adopt them and thence spared us from
 inevitably ruining them. What a curious perspective. I am still
 trying to reason it all out.
 
 The entire neural activity these strange thoughts engendered was just
 enough to make me want to read a little further. Mr. Betz's 2007
 article [4][5] begins with a most interesting claim: Recently
 there have been comments floating around the internet and around
 conferences that Microsoft's Silverlight needlessly uses XAML as its
 mark up language where it should have used SVG (Scalable Vector
 Graphics). The argument here is based on the idea that since SVG is a
 vector technology accepted in all web browsers except IE, Microsoft
 should have used it instead of XAML and then simply added support for
 SVG to IE. While this seams to some to be a valid criticism and a
 good point to some of the web standards world, it is absolutely
 groundless and carries no weight.
 
 Aha! There you have it web standards world! While your criticism may
 appear valid, it is absolutely groundless and carries no weight. 
 it is absolutely groundless and carries no weight. it is
 absolutely groundless and carries no weight. Such amazing language!
 Such certainty! Such absolute candor and fearlessness! A more careful
 scholar might tend to qualify one's writing with the occasional
 maybe, might, perhaps or even possibly. And it this person
 who has written the final word on Silverlight v standards in a
 Wikipedia article that has been nominated as good?[6]  Oh my! poor
 Wikipedia! We had such hopes for the public encyclopedia. It will now
 have to abandon its good work with SVG and use Silverlight and go
 bankrupt and then only good things can be said about Silverlight. But
 how else could any argument against such certainty ever be expected
 to end? Certainty MUST always have the last word in an argument with
 uncertainty. (or must it? I confess I don't really know).
 
 We may clearly deduce from this final sentence, without the slightest
 bit of extrapolation, I think, that some in the web standards world
 must also, therefore, carry no weight. Clearly, if such people
 espouse such groundless notions they must be weightless!  It is a
 rare idea that is labeled heavy in these days of lackadaisical
 profundity and six-pack wisdom, so is it not to be expected that a
 certain amount of weightlessness might infect our conversations,
 allowing us to float a bit from the well-grounded, established truths
 of positivism and certainty?[7]
 
 I was wondering if any of us fluent in Wikification might be tempted
 to write a brief rebuttal of this apparent absurdity, simply to help
 the public encyclopedia regain a bit of credibility on the topic. If
 nothing else, I suppose, someone should add a little note to the
 Wikipedia article that mentions that someone in the web standards
 world who does seem to carry some weight [8], has in fact made public
 statements contrary to Mr. Betz's conclusion.
 
 It was just all so bizarre, I had to share.
 
 DD
 
 [1] I noticed in Germany that Google numbers are different than in
 the US and noticed also that numbers differ depending what browser
 you use. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverlight [3] I wondered
 if an open standards organization might, in the future, become
 tempted to enforce a copyright on its standard that prevents so
 blatant a derivative artwork, in violation of the Berne treaty on
 copyright. I wonder That would be more fun than either Apple v
 Microsoft over look and feel or Netscape v Microsoft over unfair
 competition. The fear of damages might 

Re: [svg-developers] problems with firefox

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Fulio-

Please see:
  http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/#namespace-binding

Regards-
-Doug

Fulio Pen wrote (on 9/22/08 3:01 PM):
 When opening following files with IE and Opera, the renderings look good: 
 
  http://www.pinyinology.com/test/hanzicode.svg
 http://www.pinyinology.com/test/hanzicode.html
 
 But when opening them with FF, I alway got following error message:  
 
 XML Parsing Error: prefix not bound to a namespace
 Location: file:///G:/arbitrary/hanzi/treeHanzi.svg
 Line Number 88, Column 1:use xlink:href=#mu x=188 y=322/
 ^
 or: 
 
 XML Parsing Error: prefix not bound to a namespace
 Location: http://www.pinyinology.com/test/hanzicode.svg
 Line Number 95, Column 1:use xlink:href='#yue' x='50' y='322' 
 style='stroke:black;' /
 etc. 
 
 Numerous defs and use elements are used in the file.  Obiviously the 
 problems are caused by the use element. But I cannot see where I did wrong. 
  Thanks for help. 
 
 fulio pen
 



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Feedback Request: Difference Between Scroll and Pan?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

Please see this thread for details on the discussion so far:
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0339.html

Regards-
-Doug

Doug Schepers wrote (on 9/19/08 2:58 PM):
 Hi, SVG Community-
 
 Based on feedback from browser vendors, and following some
 implementations, the SVG WG is considering changing the way SVG handles
 the 'overflow' property on the SVG root.  This has implications on
 whether scrollbars would appear for SVGs.  Clearly, sometimes this is
 desirable, but other times it may not be.  The SVG WG is seeking author
 feedback on this issue, before we make a decision.
 
 If you are interested in this topic, please read this thread:
 
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0013.html
 
 This will affect how browsers handle SVG 1.1 content, so please do let
 us know if this impacts you (positively or negatively).
 
 If possible, please send comments to the SVG public list, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Regards-
 -Doug Schepers
 W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[svg-developers] Feedback Request: Difference Between Scroll and Pan?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

Based on feedback from browser vendors, and following some
implementations, the SVG WG is considering changing the way SVG handles
the 'overflow' property on the SVG root.  This has implications on
whether scrollbars would appear for SVGs.  Clearly, sometimes this is
desirable, but other times it may not be.  The SVG WG is seeking author
feedback on this issue, before we make a decision.

If you are interested in this topic, please read this thread:

 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0013.html

This will affect how browsers handle SVG 1.1 content, so please do let
us know if this impacts you (positively or negatively).

If possible, please send comments to the SVG public list, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards-
-Doug Schepers
W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs





-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Feedback Request: Difference Between Scroll and Pan?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Folks-

Sorry about that... the original post was to the old member-only SVG
list, and I didn't notice that it wasn't posted to the new
publicly-viewable list.  I'll post a new link soon.

Thanks-
-Doug

Doug Schepers wrote (on 9/19/08 2:58 PM):
 Hi, SVG Community-
 
 Based on feedback from browser vendors, and following some
 implementations, the SVG WG is considering changing the way SVG handles
 the 'overflow' property on the SVG root.  This has implications on
 whether scrollbars would appear for SVGs.  Clearly, sometimes this is
 desirable, but other times it may not be.  The SVG WG is seeking author
 feedback on this issue, before we make a decision.
 
 If you are interested in this topic, please read this thread:
 
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0013.html
 
 This will affect how browsers handle SVG 1.1 content, so please do let
 us know if this impacts you (positively or negatively).
 
 If possible, please send comments to the SVG public list, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Regards-
 -Doug Schepers
 W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Getting Text String by Mouse Click

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Rashid-

Rashid Mahmood Akhter wrote (on 8/10/08 2:02 AM):
 
 I am trying to get the text string from an svg document whenit is 
 clicked by the mouse. I can get other attributes of text but I no luck 
 with the text string.
 
 Anybody has done this and share the code.

  svg xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg;
script![CDATA[
  function GetNodeValue(evt)
  {
var targetEl = evt.target;
var str = targetEl.firstChild.nodeValue;
alert( str );
  };
]]/script

text id='text_1' x='10' y='25' font-size='18' fill='crimson'
  onclick=GetNodeValue(evt)This is a string./text
  /svg


Hope that helps-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] svg file extension?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Owen-

Owen Corpening wrote (on 8/2/08 5:33 PM):
 If I have a proper svg file drawing one line saved as a .svg file, 
 it draws (in firefox3), but rename it .html it does not. Is this 
 as designed?

As Robert described, it will render in some browsers if you use the 
.xhtml extension.  The SVG spec recommends the use of the .svg 
extension, and some user agents may not render (or open) files with 
another extension.

I'm curious as to your use case... why do you want/need to serve it as 
XHTML?

Regards-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] TextNode

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Tak-

Cameron McCormack wrote (on 7/19/08 7:57 AM):
 
 takpoli:
 To display a text, we place a string x2y2 into a TextNode by:
 
 td = document.createTextNode(x2y2)
 
 and link it as the first child of a text object.  How can we get back 
 the string from td?  Is there some utility can do that for us?
 
 Yes you can use the ‘nodeValue’ or ‘data’ property of the Text object:
 
   var textElement = document.createElementNS(SVGNS, text);
   td = document.createTextNode(x2y2);
   textElement.appendChild(td);
   …
   alert(textElement.firstChild.nodeValue);  // alerts x2y2
 
 See:
 
   http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#ID-F68D080
   http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#ID-72AB8359

Also, note that you can do the same for the variable 'td', regardless of 
whether it's been inserted in the document yet:

   var td = document.createTextNode(x2y2)
   alert( td.nodeValue );  // alerts x2y2

Regards-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [svg-developers] Create additive behavior on key press event

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote (on 1/17/08 4:52 PM):
 
 unfortunately SVG1.1 doesn't support keyboard events**.

That's not quite accurate.  SVG1.1 doesn't *specify* keyboard events, but
neither does it not support them.  It leaves it up to the User Agent
(the browser) as to how they are implemented.

The references to access-key in SVG1.1 (derived from SMIL) do assume 
some key events, but many browsers at the time had poor key event 
support, especially in SVG.  That's improving.

We're also trying to get DOM3 Key Events finalized.

Regards-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Heads Up for SVG Open 2008!

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, All-

I'm a dope.  I said September when I meant August (as Andreas corrects 
me here).  Sorry for the misinformation.

Regards-
-Doug

Andreas Neumann wrote (on 1/4/08 3:11 AM):
 Hi Doug and others,
 
 thanks for the pre-announcement.
 
 The conference will be in Nuremberg, Germany and the date will be the 
 last week of August.
 
 More information soon on the SVG Open website.
 
 I'll encourage past and potential SVG Open attendees to provide 
 feedback and input on what they want to see/hear at the SVG Open 
 conference, similar to David Daileys mail from today.
 
 Thanks,
 Andreas
 
 --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Schepers [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

 Hi, SVG Community-
 
 At SVG Open 2007, we promised to announce preparations for SVG Open 
 2008
 in late December or early January.  I thought I would kick off the 
 New
 Year with an informal preliminary call for papers... it's still 2007
 where I'm writing. :)
 
 I don't want to spoil the official announcement, which will follow
 within a couple weeks, but the organizer has been chosen, early 
 sponsors
 found, a location determined (hint: it's somewhere in Europe), and a
 timeframe decided (sometime in late September, as usual).
 
 The SVG Open 2008 site will be officially open for business by
 mid-January, but you can get started on your papers now.  For those 
 of
 you who plan to present or attend, it would be interesting to hear
 feedback about what you want to see in the conference.  The 
 presentation
 tracks are not yet decided, so there's time for you to chime in.
 
 I look forward to seeing some of you there, and to helping review 
 your
 presentations.
 
 Happy New Year!
 
 Best Regards-
 -Doug Schepers
 W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Converting SVG to PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Leonard-

Leonard Rosenthol wrote (on 12/26/07 10:28 PM):
 On 12/20/07, Erik Dahlström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not sure you have to convert the SVG:s. A quick search for pdf embed svg
 gives you a couple of examples

  Some of other methods were dropped by Adobe in Acrobat 7, and the
 rest in Acrobat 8.1.  Use of these methods is officially deprecated in
 the version of the PDF Reference that is now under the auspices of the
 ISO.

Thanks for the information; it's good for developers have a clear
message about what will and will not work.  Do you have a reference to
the list of deprecated features?  For instance, can authors still embed
static SVG?

Can you provide any insight into why this functionality was dropped?  It
did work at one point, and you seem to imply dynamic, interactive
features still work with Flash in PDF, so it doesn't seem the answer is
technical... is there any way to convince Adobe to put this
functionality back in?  Perhaps the next version of the ISO spec could
have it included again?

It's very disappointing that Adobe has removed support for features
which they were chiefly responsible for putting in SVG in the first place.


Regards-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] Heads Up for SVG Open 2008!

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

At SVG Open 2007, we promised to announce preparations for SVG Open 2008
in late December or early January.  I thought I would kick off the New
Year with an informal preliminary call for papers... it's still 2007
where I'm writing. :)

I don't want to spoil the official announcement, which will follow
within a couple weeks, but the organizer has been chosen, early sponsors
found, a location determined (hint: it's somewhere in Europe), and a
timeframe decided (sometime in late September, as usual).

The SVG Open 2008 site will be officially open for business by
mid-January, but you can get started on your papers now.  For those of
you who plan to present or attend, it would be interesting to hear
feedback about what you want to see in the conference.  The presentation
tracks are not yet decided, so there's time for you to chime in.

I look forward to seeing some of you there, and to helping review your
presentations.

Happy New Year!

Best Regards-
-Doug Schepers
W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Converting SVG to PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Richard-

Richard Pearman wrote (on 12/19/07 1:50 PM):
 Hi,
 
 As you may know I do a web comic, mostly in SVG.  I've recently found a 
 site called Wowio (I think) which pays you for having people download 
 your books in PDF and some web comic creators are using it.  The ideal 
 thing would be to simply convert my SVG files into PDF files, while 
 preserving the interactivity and animation.  (A second option would be 
 to produce print friendly versions of my comics in PDF but this would 
 be much more work.)  However I don't own the Adobe Acrobat program and 
 I don't want to fork out the money for it if it won't do the job or 
 there's a cheaper way.  I know that a lot of the functions of ASV 6 
 were in the Acrobat viewer but I'm hazy on the details or even if PDF 
 still has SVG support.  Is there some cheaper PDF authoring program 
 which would be as good or better than Adobe Acrobat?

Here's a partial list of PDF-to-SVG convertors:

http://wiki.svg.org/Other_Implementations#PDF_to_SVG

Hope that helps-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] how to access param values

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Zafar-

This is the sort of thing that's covered in the CDF Working Group's new 
WICD specs.  I've got an example on my site. [1]

To pass parameters to an SVG, use the object element with child 
param elements. Each param element should have name/value pairs with 
the 'name' and 'value' attributes; these will be exposed to the embedded 
SVG document. The actual values are not necessarily specified, and can 
be arbitrary strings, though there are a few formal parameter 
name/values. An example of the HTML markup is:

object type=image/svg+xml data=embeddedDoc.svg
param name=color value=orange /
param name=label value=some text /
/object


The code for the script to access these parameterized values in the 
embedded SVG might look like this:

var params = 
document.defaultView.frameElement.getElementsByTagName('param');
for ( var i = 0, iLen = params.length; iLen  i; i++ )
{
var eachParam = params[ i ];
var name = eachParam.getAttribute( 'name' );
var value = eachParam.getAttribute( 'value' );
//do something here with the values;
}

My bank account number is... ;)


[1] http://www.schepers.cc/examples/pass-params.html


Regards-
-Doug

ztminhas wrote (on 11/6/2007 7:02 AM):
 Hi,
 
 I have to figure out something pretty soon so I would appreciate your
 assistance. I have a SVG file which needs to display some data from a
 server or a local server side variable, or from a java script variable.
 I would like to know if it is possible to use the param tag to
 accomplish this:
 
 
 object type=image/svg+xml id=svgdocHead data=embfiles/head.svg
 width=599px height=55px
 param name=src value=embfiles/head.svg
 param name=left value=100/
 param name=right value=500/
 /object
 
 where the values in the param tag could indicate some kind of values
 that the svg could read, in manner very similar to how an applet can
 read param values.
 
 If there is a way to accomplish this, could you please let me know? I am
 even willing to pay for the help, so send me your account numbers! :-)
 
 Best Regards
 
 Zafar T Minhas
 
 



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] I cannot see my own posting

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Fulio-

I suspect the problem may be on your end.  I've seen several posts by 
you, and your account shows that you should be receiving individual 
emails.  Perhaps you need to update your email address on your account?

Your messages do seem to be getting through, as you can see on the Yahoo 
list page:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/messages

Regards-
-Doug

Fulio Pen wrote (on 10/15/2007 4:11 PM):
 I wish the group leader could see this message.  I left this group
 for a couple of days, and came back about 20 hours ago.  After seeing
 postings by other members in my email account, I sent a message to
 the list.  Not receiving it in my own email account after a few
 hours, I sent it again, believing the first one must not have been
 posted.  But so far I've seen neither of the postings in my account.
 .
 
 However, a response was sent to my email account about half an hour
 ago.  This means that my message must have appeared on the list at
 least once.   Other members have seen it..  It was just not mailed
 back to me.
 
 I wish this problem can be solved soon, to let me see my own postings
 and those by others. If you've seen my posting twice, I apologize for
 the redundancy.
 
 Fulio




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] IE7 to FireFox

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Julie-

jgfa92004 wrote (on 10/7/2007 5:18 AM):

 I have svg files that can be opened only with IE7. Is there a document 
 that describe how to make a svg file compatible with the dom 
 specifications.

Jonathan Watt wrote some SVG authoring guidelines for this very purpose. 
  They should help you out with the most common problems:

http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/


Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] SVG Open 2008

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

David Dailey wrote (on 10/3/2007 10:41 AM):
 Does anyone yet know when or where this is likely to happen?
 
 The cycle of funding here makes it easier to start planning early.

We recognize that late announcement makes it difficult for attendance 
(for presenters and audience alike).

We are planning SVG Open 2008 right now, and we will be making a Call 
for Participation before the end of the year, and will give notification 
of acceptance soon after.

The conference will be in Europe, in the Autumn.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] event listeners in svg tiny

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, shydisturbedboy-

shydisturbedboy wrote (on 9/29/2007 6:13 AM):
 do i have to register all the elements in the svg? i tried adding
 event listeners on the root element but i can't click on an
 element.. i can only access the root element.. how can register all
 the elements all at once?

What user agent (browser) are you using?  Do you have sample code for us 
to help you with?

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] SVG 1.2 Tiny Test Suite

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

The SVG Working Group is pleased to announce the beta version of the SVG 
1.2 Tiny Test Suite and the corresponding interim Implementation report. 
  Both are available from the Test Suite Overview page [1], which is 
linked from the SVG home page [2].  This represents a great deal of work 
from the SVG WG over the last year and a half, and will be essential to 
multiple interoperable implementations, and is a necessary step for SVG 
1.2 Tiny to move toward Recommendation status.  This paves the way for 
more rapid future progress.

The test suite, at this point, contains 408 certified tests, and another 
hundred or so that we are still reviewing and approving.  Additionally, 
we will continue to create new tests.  We are also putting into place a 
way for the public (especially other implementors) to submit test cases, 
which we will approve and integrate as applicable (more about this soon).

The interim implementation report will be updated as an official report 
after the finished version of the test suite is published (though the 
test suite is anticipated to be an ongoing work).  Already, there is a 
lot of green for each feature.

I would like to personally thank each member of the SVG Working Group 
for their hard work in delivering this test suite, and to the vendors 
for implementing the features and working together to move SVG forward.

As usual, any bugs can be reported via our public issue tracker [3], or 
sent to this list.  Thanks for any feedback!

[1] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/
[2] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/
[3] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/feedback.html

Regards-
-Doug Schepers
W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] node repositioning..

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Dave-

dave wrote:
  Does SVG 1.2 support node repositioning in a graph?

This could mean a lot of different things.  I suspect that you're asking 
SVG 1.2 support relative positioning, such that dragging a particular 
shape with connected lines will also reposition that end of the lines. 
There is nothing in SVG Tiny 1.2 to do that, but Cameron McCormack is 
possibly working on a constraints module for SVG Full 1.2 that can 
accomplish that, among many other things.  Of course, it's possible to 
do it in script now.

If you mean something different, please explain in more detail.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] can you display/embed a Flash in SVG?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, raytigres-

raytigres wrote:
 I have tried embedding a Flash with both image and embed tags,
 with and without TYPE=application/x-shockwave-flash.

SVG doesn't have an embed element, so that wouldn't work anywhere 
(unless you used it in a foreignObject element, though that's not very 
dependable).  SVG Tiny 1.2 has the animation element for referencing 
external animation file, so it's conceivable that it would work in some 
viewer that supports both.


 ASV3 doesn't complain but it doesn't work either. Is it possible?

I don't know of any SVG viewer that supports this.  This is not 
prohibited by the spec, so it's theoretically possible, but in practice 
I find it unlikely that it would ever work.  There have been 
proof-of-concept projects to do the reverse, render SVG in Flash (using 
DENG, IIRC).

What you could try is referencing both the SVG and the Flash file in an 
HTML file, and using CSS to position the Flash such that it overlays the 
SVG.  I don't know if this would work or if it would suit your purposes, 
but if you really need it, it's worth a shot.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Webkit, SVG and Apollo

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Chaals-

Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
 On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:50:15 +0200, Domenico Strazzullo  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Yesterday I spoke with an Adobe person and to the direct question ...
 Did you disable SVG in Webkit for Apollo? I got this direct
 answer ... We did disable it but we're trying to put it back, although
 it's difficult to keep everything [citation].
 
 In response to a direct question at Xtech someone from Adobe gave exactly  
 the opposite answer. 

What was the response at XTech?  That they didn't disable it, or that 
they aren't trying to put it back?


 Maybe testing it a bit would be more reliable than  
 asking the company?

Agreed.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Undermining SVG

[Doug Schepers]

Whoah there, Turbo!  You seem to be racing to some really strange 
reactions.  Enough with the conspiracy theories and ad hominem attacks.

Paul asked a pretty straightforward question.  With Microsoft, Adobe, 
and Sun have all stepping up their efforts in similar spaces to SVG, and 
Adobe strategically backing down on their support for SVG, there's some 
natural uncertainty among people using SVG commercially.  I doubt 
ranting will resolve their concerns, or add any credibility to SVG.

As to memberships, you let the moderators take care of that.  Sheesh.

Regards-
-Doug

Domenico Strazzullo wrote:
 Veiko,
 
 Chances are that this Paul Wirdnam will not reply. These posts are 
 probably the work of some marketing guys from Microsoft/others: 
 dramatic topic subject/question with self response, a Please help! 
 in place of signature from somebody who seems quite competent, etc. 
 They are tentatives of intoxication. I'll be more than happy to be 
 contradicted by Paul Wirdnam' reply. This list has often been exposed 
 to talent drainage but at this moment it seems that some would like 
 to give it a fatal blow. Again, I hope this is only paranoia, but
 lately there has been a recrudescence of posts that try to undermine 
 SVG and there's no way that a member can check if the author of a
 suspicious post is a genuine member since unfortunately he or she 
 doesn't have access anymore to the members' list. I wonder why? In 
 this circumstance there is too much burden on the moderators (Doug, 
 how many owners/moderators left?), while some members can take part 
 of the load. We can't remember the names of all the members so, can 
 we please gain back the access to the list's information?



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Undermining SVG (was: What alternatives to ASV for IE6/7 ?)

[Doug Schepers]

H, Paul-

I think Steven's got a pretty sane assessment here.  In reality, Adobe 
haven't truly supported ASV for years.  As I've said before on this 
list, Renesis is gearing up to be the active replacement for ASV, and 
while it still has a way to go, it is making good progress.

Because you're using inline SVG (via data islands), your options are a 
little limited if you want to stay in IE.  None of the Java players will 
do that.  As Steven says, ASV isn't going away, so until Renesis works 
for you (which bug reports would help), I think ASV is still a safe bet.

Stephen Quintero wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 First, while support for ASV will end as of 2008, I understand the existing
 plug-in will continue to be supplied by Adobe indefinitely.  Also, the
 current stable release of ASV seems (to me) as good or better than the
 developing native support.  So you may be in less of a crunch than you
 think.  Unless you are pushing the limits of the SVG implementation in ASV.
 
 It looks as if the browser vector graphics market is up in the air.  SVG or
 Flash or SilverLight or whatnext.  What basket do you put your eggs in?
 Since you already have a mature application in SVG, you might wait to see
 how it all shakes out.
 
 I also would like to see Renesis mature.  I tried it on my app, which runs
 happily under ASV and Firefox, but it was confused.  Or maybe I am!

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Browser plugins

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Lenny-

Lenny wrote:
 Besides Adobe's SVGViewer.exe, what else is out there?
 
 I looked in the links section of the website and found a bunch of
 developer and conversion tools, but nothing for the client side.

By the website, I assume you mean wiki.svg.org?  You may have been 
looking at the wrong page.  A (partial) list is here:

http://wiki.svg.org/Viewer_Implementations

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] Moderated Status and End of Thread (was: OT)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Geoffrey-

You've really pushed my patience to the edge.

This list is for questions about SVG development.  It's not a forum for 
you to rant against SVG or promote other technologies.  As I said 
before, there are constructive ways to have such conversations, but you 
are willfully avoiding them.

Anyone who has truly been reading this list for the past 3 years, 2 
years, 1 year, 6 months, 3 months, or even a single month cannot help 
but to see the SVG is dead permathread (at least one of which was 
started by you), including copious emails regarding the foundering 
status of the Adobe plug-in.  I would hardly describe the reaction on 
this list as rosy.  One need only to search through the archives to 
see thread after thread devoted to this.  And yet somehow, doomsayers 
aside, SVG is still becoming more widely implemented, and those 
implementations are steadily improving.

This list is never going to advocate transition to some other technology 
(unless SVG is simply not suitable for the task at hand, as is sometimes 
the case).  If ever SVG fails, if the market decides there is no room 
for a cross-platform, open-standards vector graphics language, this list 
will simply close.  You seem to have already found your next passion, 
and if you are not interested in SVG, I suggest this may no longer be 
the list for you.

You consider the time you have spent on SVG wasted; similarly, I 
consider the time I have spent reading and replying to your inflammatory 
messages a waste of my time.  I suspect that you have gotten more out of 
learning SVG than the rest of us have gotten from the superficial 
contents of your recent messages.  I politely asked you to 
self-moderate, which you agreed to do; you have not honored your 
promise, and I have thus set your posting privileges to moderated 
status.  If you have something constructive to say, I will allow the 
post to go through.

Believe me, I was very reluctant to do this.  You are only the 2nd 
person I've had to take such measures with (and the first was because of 
extremely foul language).  But I reviewed your posting history, and 
while I do believe that participated in this group in good faith in the 
past, this thread does not reflect that good faith.

I'm sure you're simply venting your frustration at what is admittedly a 
slow process (as all open standards are).  I think it will ultimately be 
worth it, and I find SVG quite usable today.  If you don't agree, I wish 
you well with whatever technology you think better suits your needs.

To everyone else, I apologize for taking this action.  I truly hate to 
be forced to moderate someone, but I feel that this was the only way to 
get this list back on track.

Regards-
-Doug

Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
 The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation  browser
 that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to work around,
 different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot justify any
 more work in SVG for my projects.
 
  
 
 I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform. I'm pretty
 sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if
 Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something else. 
 
  
 
 I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it before it
 occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for years -
 meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never guessed
 this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue, everything is rosy;
 there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here.
 
 
 Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily by updating
 the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this technology any
 further. 
 
  
 
 And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG efforts that
 are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current rate of
 progress it will be at least two more years before all of the various
 browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a consistent manner.
 
  
 
 I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help from this
 list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong with the
 list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports becomes
 BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband issues rather
 than staying stuck on one small thing.
 
  
 
 The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new graphical
 rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks dead. Please
 don't shoot the messengers.
 
  
 
 In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML, shackled by
 glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient bitmapped
 graphics. Something more is needed.
 


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on 

Re: [svg-developers] Moderated Status and End of Thread

[Doug Schepers]

Whatever.

not everyone can express their concerns as well as me... I guess you 
figured a joke would lighten the mood?


~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote:
 Doug,
 
 once again I feel you are taking yourself, the list, its members and  
 SVG far too seriously.
 
 get a life and live a little. there's plenty wrong with SVG and the  
 W3C process.
 
 it may well be that not everyone can express their concerns as well  
 as me, but honestly you must have something better to do than  
 moderate flames.
 
 cheers
 
 Jonathan Chetwynd



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] OT

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Geoffrey-

I think you may have felt a little stung by comments on this list, but 
as I said, I have no intention of kicking you off the list.  You are 
welcome to your opinion.  Questions or answers to SVG technical issues 
are welcome here: irrelevant boosting of Silverlight is not.


Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
 SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more work in it
 for more than a year. This is not to say that I dislike SVG much at all, but
 the Adobe plugin has a lot of problems, and SVG is nowhere near as
 universally available as Silverlight already is. I gave up when the new
 Mozilla stuff was barely functional, and Opera was even worse. Since IE no
 longer handles SVG, you can continue banging your head on the wall, or just
 make the pragmatic decision and go with Silverlight.

IE never did handle SVG, of course... the Adobe viewer did.  And the 
Renesis player (and others) are closing the gap.  SVG is alive and kicking.

You've made it clear that you don't think much of the Firefox or Opera 
implementations, but I think you're wrong.  Both are good, and both are 
improving.


 Silverlight has hit the ground running hard. It isn't going to do the
 members of this group any good to put their heads in the ground and hope
 that it will go away and that SVG will somehow rise from its longtime
 sickbed.

On the contrary.  SVG has never been more widely supported, and that 
support is improving.  And I think it does do the members of this group 
--and the Web in general-- good to support open standards, though you 
may not understand the benefits (or the dangers of the proprietary 
formats).


 Microsoft has spent their millions developing Silverlight, and it shows. 

You're right, they have... which is (again) why I don't think they need 
any more advertising on this list.


 It is relevant to the more honest and/or pragmatic members of this group, 
 who are going to have to decide how to migrate their code to something that is
 going to be more widely available than SVG.

There may be people who feel the need to, and as I said, I'm sympathetic 
to that market need...  but it's neither impragmatic nor dishonest to 
show integrity in your choice of technology.  The truth is, SVG is 
getting stronger by the day, and your opinion does nothing to change that.


 I could hardly care less about whether it is open-sourced or not. 

I said nothing about open source.  It's open standards that are 
important.  Open standards allow for cross-browser, cross-platform, 
*multi-company* interoperability.


 I just
 don't see how volunteer efforts can find a revenue stream to keep up with
 proprietary code. 

Firefox seems to have presented a good model to prove you wrong.  But 
you're confusing open source with open standards.  Open standards (HTML, 
etc.) made the Web what it is today, when all the proprietary formats 
(as championed by AOL, CompuServe, etc.) tried to keep a stranglehold on 
their own little Web territories.



 I just want a platform for my ideas, and I will pay for
 good tools.

Yes, just as I said: I think the main challenge is the tools.


 Just the rendering speed of Silverlight is something really exciting.
 Ordinary mortals can code really fast complex graphics without having to
 deal with low level graphic details. If SVG could do this (and had a
 well-financed patron behind it) nobody would even care about Silverlight.

I agree that rendering speed is something that most SVG implementations 
could use help on, and they are working on it.  As for a well-financed 
patron... well, again, I think you're dancing with the devil when you 
want one company to rule a technology.


 I am not a lurking Microsoft person, though I have worked there as a
 somewhat resentful permatemp a couple of times. I am perfectly aware that
 Microsoft doesn't always play so nice.

And yet...


 But Silverlight really is kewl. I am honestly very excited about it and I
 will leave it at that.

Great.  I expect not to hear any more from you about it on this list, 
thanks.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] OT (was: Have you played with Silverlight?)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Z T-

Z T Minhas wrote:
  This is a group dedicate to helping technical issues related
  to SVG. Moderator please kick these agent provocateurs off
  the group. I want information about SVG and how i can
  incorporate such in my applications. I don't want 3rd party
  fake viral marketers sponsored by some Micro$oft partner
  telling me about gray-darkness. That is not the point of
  this group. If you want to do that, get off this group,
  and make your own yahoo group where you can market all you like.

I appreciate your dedication to SVG, and if I did think that this were a 
case of viral marketers, I would moderate their comments (that is, set 
their posting status to require a review before going to this list) 
until they proved that they were sincere; I don't like the idea of 
kicking anyone off the list.

But I don't think that's what's going on.  I think these are people who 
have a genuine interest and excitement about a different technology, and 
I feel my request for them to self-moderate and stay on-topic is the 
best course.  We're all adults here.

I, for one, don't feel that their assessments of SVG and the market are 
correct.  Silverlight is definitely a danger to the openness of the Web, 
but I don't think it will sound the death knell of SVG.  But listening 
to perspectives on why Silverlight is compelling to them informs us what 
improvements need to be made to SVG.

Ultimately, I think that Silverlight may even be good for SVG.  A rising 
tide raises all ships, and with more than Flash in the Web 
vector-graphics space, I think this entire approach will start to gain 
more currency with serious developers and corporations.  There will be 
those who recognize that it is in their best interest to promote an open 
standard rather than succumb to vendor lock-in.  These large 
organizations will have felt the sting of lock-in before.

When Flash/Apollo and Silverlight clash, it is SVG which wins the long 
game.  Both of those technologies exist only to make a profit for their 
controllers; SVG exists to provide a cross-vendor solution to the same 
problem.  If either one of the commercial vendors feels like their 
technology isn't profitable enough, they will drop it like a hot brick. 
  Smart companies know this.  Meanwhile, SVG will be the open standards 
tortoise to the commercial hares (though we *are* trying to urge the 
tortoise on a little... we're well aware of market pressures :) ).  I 
suspect SVG will always be more pervasive outside the general browser 
than either of the competing technologies, and that is one of its hidden 
strengths.  Inside the browser, SVG is also the only one which is 
natively implemented in any browser, and I think it has staying power.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] OT

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Stephen-

I think you have a fair question and I wish I were more informed about 
the technical details of Silverlight to answer you more intelligently; 
learning more about Silverlight is definitely something on my short list 
(embrace and extend, anyone?).

But I think I'm in a position to answer your concerns about SVG.

Stephen Quintero wrote:
 
 I guess it's a sore spot.  Since I asked the original question, I'll put in
 my last 2 cents.
 
 I've more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool which relies
 heavily on SVG (and it's in alpha).  It is all built with open standards
 tech.  It works (though not identically in all browsers and not at all in
 Safari).

WebKit is putting serious effort into improving its SVG implementation, 
to the point that Apple has recently joined the SVG Working Group.  I 
would expect to see marked improvement in Safari within the year (no 
insider information, I just know from the trades that lots of Apple 
resources have been diverted to push out other Apple products).


 If I worked in academia or government that would be then end of it - I could
 just dictate, if you want to use it then do this,  if not too bad.  But
 really, in my circumstances, it's too bad for me.
 
 I would, of course, like something users trust, works reliably in different
 browser/OS combinations and is robust.  I would like to stay with SVG
 because of my investment, because it is open standard, etc.  At this point,
 SVG is like early HTML - you have to code for different browsers and limit
 your functionality, but it does fabulous things.  If it were maturing driven
 by user demand and killer apps, that would be just fine.  But I have this
 nagging feeling I need to be prepared in case it is eaten by Godzilla.

SVG is not going away.  You can put that fear to rest.  If you are 
worried about support in IE, that's an open question.

I am hoping that there is still interest in the IE team to implement 
SVG; they are a separate division from the Silverlight team, and they 
recently came back to the standards table with what seems to be good 
will.  As a strategic move, they could even benefit from implementing 
SVG; it is very similar to Silverlight (hmmm wonder why?), more so 
than Flash, and may help shift vector technologies in that direction. 
It would be a good PR move, and provide an open alternative for those 
that need or desire that.  And if the pie is split 3 ways instead of 2, 
that will cut in Silverlight's favor.

But let's assume that IE doesn't implement SVG natively.  There are 
several SVG implementations under active development, not the least of 
which is the ever-improving Renesis player, which aim to provide 
advanced support for SVG in IE (if only as a plug-in... which, remember, 
is how Silverlight is distributed).

As a financial concern, it's prudent of you to investigate if 
Silverlight will also work for you (if only as a backup plan); I suspect 
the conversion will not be profound, but you'll have to research that 
yourself.


 This is a relevant concern and question for many people who work with SVG,
 hence my post here.  It can even reasonably be considered a technical issue
 with SVG.  If you are riding a horse and it croaks under you, that is a
 technical failure.
 
 Yes, I hoped to elicit a more thorough and calm response describing the
 limits of functionality of Silverlight by way of comparison.  And even some
 insight into the market and why SVG is here to stay (particularly in IE).
 But, you get what you get.

I suspect most people who are interested in SVG are leary of YAPVF (yet 
another proprietary vector format), and Silverlight is still pretty new. 
  I imagine that there will be more intelligent discussion of the 
subject here in coming months.


 Some rats row, some rats flee the ship, some rats pretend everything is
 okay.  I hope it is.  If it weren't for the abandonment of ASV, I would
 certainly think so.  Given a decent chance, open standards tools have proven
 themselves.  But without ongoing development in IE 6/7, which is 3/4 of the
 market, then there is undoubted concern.

ASV was not the only game in town, and their tepid support ultimately 
did more harm than good to SVG in the latter years.  Lines are 
definitely being drawn in this space, and I expect a lot of movement 
from all related technologies.  There is a commercial drive in SVG, just 
as there is in the others.


 For better or worse, I have to make my software work for Joe and Sally who
 use the internet for web-surfing and shopping.  Not for CS students and
 Linux geeks.

A few years ago, I might have agreed that SVG was academic and more 
purist than practical.  But I see more support and more market relevance 
for it now.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:

[svg-developers] OT (was: Have you played with Silverlight?)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al-

As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for open 
standards, I'm going to ask you politely to stop evangelizing 
Silverlight on SVG-Dev (as I've asked for self-moderation in the past 
regarding Flash).

I have nothing against Silverlight, and it's fine if you want to use it, 
but it's not on-topic for our list; this is a forum for technical 
questions on using SVG.  Silverlight has the weight and financial 
backing of Microsoft behind it; Flash and Apollo both have Adobe's 
backing.  All these proprietary technologies have their own mailing 
lists, so I don't think they need any further advertising on this list.

SVG is growing steadily, and it has market relevance, but open standards 
are already at a huge disadvantage compared to proprietary technologies 
(and not for technical reasons).  I feel that it is important that the 
Web remain open, and part of that is ensuring that no one company 
controls the languages of the Web.

I'm not trying to censor this list, and I'm not going to block any 
posts.  I think that a fair and open discussion of SVG will include some 
comparison to competing technologies.  It's important that SVG grow in 
response to other technologies (as Silverlight derives heavily from 
SVG).  But it irritates me when people on this list recommend abandoning 
SVG, in favor of proprietary competitors.  It's FUD, and it's not polite.

A more constructive activity would be to identify what features of those 
corporate technologies you find compelling, and ask for comparable 
features to be added to SVG on [EMAIL PROTECTED] (the W3C's public SVG 
list, which the SVG WG monitors for feedback).  Also, you can appeal 
directly to browser vendors (or even contribute code, e.g. to Mozilla 
and Batik), and let them know you need particular SVG features (I think 
that the Mozilla Corp could use some encouragement to add resources to 
SVG, for example).

It's always an individual choice whether to do the Right Thing (tm), or 
to let corporate interests take control (and frankly, sometimes you have 
no choice, out of pragmatism); but the sum of those individual choices 
determines the landscape of the Web, and the degree to which it relies 
on open standards.  Sorry if that sounds all preachy, but it's how I 
feel, and why I think SVG is more important than any similar corporate 
equivalent.

If the technical difference were more pronounced, I might feel 
differently.  But for most purposes, SVG is as good as its more 
tightly-controlled cousins.  I think the big difference is in authoring 
tool support, and there is something that can be done about that.

I'm sure you can understand my perspective, and I hope you will honor 
this request.

/rant

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Executing JS calls from objects defined within defs using Squiggle

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Patrick-

Actually, I'm kinda surprised this works at all in FF and Opera... :)

The 'href' attribute is defined in the XLink specification, and is 
merely referenced by the SVG specification, so it's in the XLink 
namespace.  Therefore, you need to use the 'setAttributeNS' method.

Try this:

script![CDATA[
var xlinkns = 'http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink';

function changeRect(rectName) {
 var useElem = document.getElementById('useElem');
 useElem.setAttributeNS( xlinkns, 'href', '#' + rectName);
 }

]]/script

Regards-
-Doug

Patrick wrote:
 Here is what I have:
 
 ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8 ?
 
 svg xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg;
  xmlns:svg=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg;
  xmlns:xlink=http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink;
  width=101 height=101
 
 script type=text/ecmascript 
 function changeRect(rectName) {
 var useElem = document.getElementById('useElem');
 if (useElem.getAttribute('href') != null) {
 document.getElementById('useElem')
 .setAttribute('href','#' + rectName);
 }
 else if (useElem.getAttribute('xlink:href') != null) {
 document.getElementById('useElem')
 .setAttribute('xlink:href','#' + rectName);
 }
 }
 /script
 
 defs
 rect id=rect1 x=1 y=1 width=50 height=50 
 stroke=green fill=green onclick=changeRect('rect2') /
 rect id=rect2 x=1 y=1 width=50 height=50 
 stroke=red fill=red onclick=changeRect('rect1') /
 /defs
 
 use id=useElem xlink:href=#rect1 /
 
 /svg
 
 This works in FireFox and Opera.  IE never seems to work with
 scripting.  In fact, the reason I even care to use Batik is that I
 want to ensure that I can use this in every browser through an applet.
  However, this SVG doesn't work in Squiggle.  I played around and
 found that I can put JS calls into the use element, but any of the
 JS calls within the defs won't be run.  I need different objects to
 produce unique results.  Such as this example: both do call
 changeRect(), but each supplies a different name to be used in the
 function.  If I can only make the call from the use element, then I
 cannot specify what to feed the parameters such that it relates to the
 currently displayed object.  If there is a work around for, I would
 like to know.  If not, this renders Batik/Squiggle completely useless
 for me.




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG support after 1 januar 2009, how further?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Kevgor-

kggsystem wrote:

 Why should or would MS support SVG in IE? really...
 
 Microsoft basically has it now (today released as Silverlight). 

Microsoft is not a single entity.  The IE team is completely separate 
from the Silverlight team, and in fact they compete for resources within 
the company (as do all divisions of MS).  What the IE team and the 
Silverlight team do are independent efforts.

The reason that the IE team would implement SVG is the same that any 
browser vendor would: because it is an open standard, and this is a way 
to keep pace with other browser vendors.


 For those who are not following this effort, Silverlight basically 
 does everything SVG does and more, and what's more important, it 
 has essentially the same model as SVG (e.g. XML and Javascript is all 
 you need). 

As well it should; it is largely based on SVG, though as a proprietary 
single-vendor technology, it has moved more quickly.  Open standards, as 
a collaborative effort between multiple vendors, are subject to more 
oversight and may develop more slowly.


 I would suggest that the most MS would do is support conversion of 
 SVG to Silverlight format. 

Or perhaps support SVG in their viewer, since they are very similar. 
But both of us are merely speculating.


 Now, above I said it does everything that SVG does. That is a bit of 
 a generalization. SVG does have some very nice features in text 
 handling, defs, CSS support and some more advanced animation 
 declarative constructs. But effectively Silverlight does 80% coverage 
 of SVG, and adds new stuff to the offering like built-in XmlHTTP, 
 Video, and Audio. And thats just V1.0

SVG also has XHR (via the new DOM), video, and audio... and that's just 
SVG Tiny 1.2.


Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG support after 1 januar 2009, how further?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Kevgor-

kggsystem wrote:
 Yes, you're right it's just speculation, but it's pretty 
 interesting...
 
 Here's a post I found from about a year back
 
 http://blog.codedread.com/archives/2006/06/02/ie72-to-support-svg/
 
 Here it says Microsoft publicly stated IE will have core engine 
 support for SVG in IE7.x (most likely 7.2). This was dated June 2, 
 2006.
 
 No particular MS employee was cited in this blog entry but it 
 certainly sounds that way. Those who are interested should read 
 further into the blog. There may be some speculation going on here 
 too.

Far too much speculation.  That turned out to be a wishful-thinking 
rumor... well-meaning, I'm sure, but not based in verifiable fact.  Even 
if someone did say that, plans can always change in a company, but I 
suspect it was a misinterpretation of what was said.

If you read Jeff's follow-up on that, he pretty much debunks it:
 
http://blog.codedread.com/archives/2006/05/04/the-future-of-internet-explorer-and-web-standards/


 Next I see a question asked in the Microsoft forums, dated December 
 14 2006, which is after the previous post.
 
 http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1019248SiteID=1
 
 Here we see a Senior Program Manager state in a response to a 
 question about native SVG support in IE: It's currently too early to 
 announce exact plans at this stage. We are certainly looking into 
 this area though.

Those who don't follow standards trends (the new HTML charter in 
particular) may not know that Microsoft, and in particular, the IE Team, 
have become actively engaged in Web standards for the first time in a 
very long time.  Everything points to their trying to adhere more 
closely to W3C standards... and as part of that, I am sure they are 
considering implementing SVG.  Whether they will do so or not is 
something probably even they don't know.



 So the only thing I can conclude is that the latter statements are 
 less conclusive than the prior ones; in fact somewhat contradicting 
 the earlier announcement of firm support.
 
 My conclusion at this point is that there is some serious waffling 
 going on and I suspect it's because of two things a) Adobe dropping 
 support for ASV (announced Sept 9, 2006 - subsequent to first post 
 cited above), and b) Emergence of Silverlight (WPF/E). 

The first public statement was not accurate; the second is in line 
with their policy on not revealing anything before it's released.  So 
it's neither waffling nor a change of heart.

I think the uncertainty in their response has more to do with limited 
resources on the IE team, and prioritizing.


 But you're absolutely right, it's speculation.

I've talked to several IE guys personally, and they can't say one way or 
the other.  Big companies like that just don't tell tales out of school. 
  I do know that there are other efforts to get SVG into IE, though, so 
I'm not worried.  Still, I'd love for it to be natively supported.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Just noticed a lack of VML support

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Dave-

The Microsoft IE team has a strong stated policy of not breaking 
existing content.  I would expect this to apply to VML as well.

Regards-
-Doug

ddailey wrote:
 FWIW, IE7 continues VML support. I hope they don't discontinue it since for 
 some (simple) things I like the option of providing VML as an alternative to 
 SVG if the plugin doesn't exist.
 
 David
   - Original Message - 
   From: dr.cataclyst 
   To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com 
   Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 3:49 PM
   Subject: [svg-developers] Just noticed a lack of VML support
 
 
   Is MS walking away from VML finally?
   I recently downloaded MS Visio 2007 and noticed that there are two svg
   options in the 'save as' dialog and zero vml.
   No big deal I thought its probably the default for 'save as web page'.
   Guess again, 'save as web page' generates an image mapped gif in an
   html page.
   Just a little food for thought.
   dr.cataclyst



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] decimal place rounding utility

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Harvey-

Harvey Rayner wrote:
 does anyone know of a utility i can use to round path values to required
 decimal places?

You can do this with the magical power of Regular Expressions!  Open the 
file in any editor with regex capabilities, such as RegexBuddy or 
TextPad (I use these tools, but regex is widely supported), and replace 
this:

(\d*)\.(\d{2})(\d*)

with this:

\1.\2


The first statement says, match any number of digits, followed by a ., 
followed by 2 digits, followed by any number of digits.  The replacement 
statement says, the results of the first bracket, followed by ., 
followed by the results of the second bracket.  This will strip down the 
strings to all but the first 2 decimal places.  There is probably a way 
to round up, rather than truncate, but I'm too tired at the moment to 
find it.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] SVG and Screen Readers

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

While SVG is designed with accessibility in mind, the accessibility User
Agents do not seem to be taking advantage of this.

For example, JAWS does not currently seem to have any support for SVG.
I have just spoken to Freedom Scientific (the makers of JAWS) on the
phone, and sent them an email explaining how SVG should be used by JAWS,
with an example file.

It should be very easy for them to add such support.  I encourage
interested parties to write them and let them know that you want support
for SVG.

I am also interested in contacting other accessibility UAs that should
support SVG.  Please let me know about any others, so I can encourage
them in the same way.

Finally, I am eager to take into account any feedback on how the SVG
spec could be made more accessible by these implementors or authors with
specific advice.  I am also available to discuss and explain the
accessibility features we already have.

Regards-
-Doug

Research and Standards Engineer
6th Sense Analytics
www.6thsenseanalytics.com
mobile: 919.824.5482




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: blind to read by selecting text

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Andreas-

Andreas Neumann wrote:
 
 I also don't see how microformats can help you to improve 
 accessibility in a graphics format, a graphics viewer and a graphics 
 authoring tool. Please enlighten me.

I wrote a blog post that mentions a microformats-in-SVG approach toward 
Semantic Web and accessibility.  You might find it interesting.
  http://www.schepers.cc/?p=11

There are a variety of ways that microformats could be leveraged in an 
authoring tool or a viewer, but there is no additional need for anything 
from the SVG specification itself (which is, of course, exactly why 
microformats was designed the way it was... it just works as long as 
there is a class attribute).

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] re: blind to read by selecting text

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
 
 the query resolves to was the tag tree conceived and designed with  
 navigation by the blind in mind
 or is it tag soup ~: leaving all the work to the UA.
 
 something like the old html mess we got in before xhtml, but very  
 different.

There is no mandated content tree, because the possibilities are 
practically limitless.

There are very well-thought-out aspects to the structure in the spec, 
including having the 'title' and 'desc' elements as child elements 
(rather than as i18n-unfriendly attributes), and the ability to group 
elements together (which has no affect on rendering, but allows the 
author to include some logical structure into the file).  Note that 
Opera already displays a tooltip when you use the 'title' element, and 
does so in a very smart way (with greater preference towards child 
titles than parent titles).

Basically, it comes down to authoring.  This is what the updated SVG 
Accessibility Note will describe.  I will be sure to include explicit 
examples.  Control (buttons, sliders, and such) are obvious examples, 
but there are many other types of content that can benefit (such as 
maps, diagrams, etc.).

As must be obvious, creating properly structured documents with working 
metadata and thoughtful navigation makes your content more usable to 
everyone (including you, for reuse), not just those with vision problems.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] embed .v. object .v. frames .v. iframes -- [was SVG in XHTML file]

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Aaron-

I have to respectfully disagree with David (a fine and intelligent man, 
to be sure), and dissuade you from using embed.  I use iframe, and 
find it to be robust, as well as standards compliant.

Regards-
-Doug

Aaron Gray wrote:
 Okay, I have settled on embed.
 
 Thanks for the infomation.
 
 Aaron
 
   - Original Message - 
   From: ddailey 
   To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com 
   Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 1:05 AM
   Subject: Re: [svg-developers] embed .v. object .v. frames .v. iframes -- 
 [was SVG in XHTML file]
 
 
   Aaron Gray wrote:
 
   This brings up the issue of embed .v. object .v. frames .v. iframes I 
 would appreciate some pointers and advice here.
 
   I'll go ahead and make a stab at an answer. If I misstate or neglect 
 anything, I'll hope others will jump in and correct me.
 
   Right now, the generally recommended way of doing SVG within HTML in 
 existing web browsers seems to be embed. It works and supports SVG--HTML 
 (bidirectional) scripting (w JavaScript). This works fine, from my 
 experience, with Opera 9, Firefox 1.5+ and IE/ASV3.03. I can't speak for 
 Safari which is probably one of the top 4 when it comes to SVG support in the 
 browser.
 
   The problem is that embed is not standards compliant. embed seems to 
 have been a sort of historic placeholder for 
 stuffThatTheBrowserDoesn'tReallyUnderstandWithoutOutsideHelp/ and has been 
 inconsistently implemented for different types of content (different 
 attributes, different purposes, etc.) all depending on who's plugin we're 
 using.
 
   The W3C mechanism for importing non-HTML content into HTML documents is the 
 object tag. Unfortunately (as Martin Honnen recently reminded me -- I knew 
 I had read that once upon a time and then proceeded to forget), Adobe 
 discovered a security problem with object in its 3.03 and disabled 
 scripting through it (at least when done across domains). 
 (http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/) . I've seen some advice that it is 
 possible to get a document to validate properly with some tricks, using 
 objectembed//object, but I for one have not been able to pull that off 
 and still do cross-DOM scripting. Perhaps somebody has an example?
 
   object works quite nicely and simply in FF and Opera, though.
 
   In some experiments I did with embed object frames and iframes, (see for 
 example 
 http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/createSVGelementfromHTML.html) I 
 had some terrible troubles reading the SVG DOM
   if it was inside a frame or an iframe.
 
   Eventually, I was able to solve that problem (see 
 http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/frameSVG.html.) with a peculiar 
 technique -- in the svg tag I placed onload=top.receive(document) -- that 
 is, the SVG document sends its own document as a parameter to an HTML 
 function, thence allowing cross-DOM scripting. A bit kludgy for my taste, but 
 it gives script functionality to both iframes and frames, and that's what I 
 was after. Fishing for the SVG DOM inside a frame or an iframe gave me 
 security blocks at least in IE. Instead I let the fish come to the hook.
 
   On other fronts, 
 
   a) image src=doc.svg is likely not ever to support scripting, even once 
 individual browsers come to support that file type.
 
   b) the inline approach to SVG has been experimented with a good deal and is 
 likely to become much more convenient in future browsers (right now IE seems 
 to be the obstacle). The link I mentioned earlier 
 http://wiki.svg.org/Inline_SVG seems as consise and accurate as on this 
 subject as any, though I seem to recall that Andreas Neumann had some pretty 
 extensive stuff on this at his wonderful 
 http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/samples/ site -- I can't seem to locate it 
 quickly though.
 
   c) there is a foreignObject tag in SVG1.1 (see 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/extend.html#ForeignObjectElement) . It appears to 
 have the purpose of allowing the embedding of XHTML (and other XML content) 
 directly into SVG, I suppose somewhat like Microsoft XML data islands in 
 HTML. I haven't seen any working demos of it, and the example code in the W3C 
 specs is something I've not been able to make work in any browser (I'm hoping 
 somebody can set me straight here.)
 
   d) cross DOM stuff is a major focus of many of the emphases of at least a 
 dozen major projects at the W3C (it seems to this outsider). So as soon as 
 the browsers all learn to work and play nicely together, the playground will 
 become a very fun place with the ability to wrap SVG into alternative XML's 
 and vice versa using XSLT and so forth. Opera and Firefox already support 
 XPATH -- if IE did, then we could probably shrink the size of our DOM code by 
 50%. That means we could write 200K programs for our fat clients instead of 
 just 100K programs nowadays. I don't know, does anybody pass more than 100K 
 of script into the browser at present? Seems like you'd have to get into 
 incremental loads if 

Re: [svg-developers] VML Version of SVG Work

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Larry-

lpmlabs9 wrote:
 The decision by Adobe to pull support for their plugin is causing 
 concern by current and potential clients of SVG-based components that 
 I have built.  

That's unfortunate.  In reality, Adobe has not supported ASV for years 
(except for plugging security holes in a CYA strategy).

You might reassure your clients by disabusing them of the common notion 
that Adobe will not still provide a download of the plug-in.  Some 
companies still want the security of knowing a plug-in is supported, 
though, which is understandable.

rantAdobe, by not releasing the source, has removed any chance of 
3rd-party (e.g. volunteer) support of ASV.  I still disapprove of their 
handling of this whole situation, though they did settle on the bare 
minimum of community responsiblity./rant


 Before I began using SVG a number of years back, I 
 built a few samples with VML.  Now I must give an estimate on the 
 effort to support VML as well as SVG in 1 of my projects (others to 
 follow ?).  

Rather than doing this yourself, you might look at some OS efforts that 
are already going this route.  I think I've heard of several, but most 
notable is dojo (which does it as part of its huge cross-browser script 
lib).


 I spent today mapping the SVG features I utilized to their 
 counterpart in VML but a few important items remain.  I'm looking for 
 the equivalent of marker-end/marker-mid as well as getPointAtLength.  
 Do they exist or can they be synthesized out of other available 
 elements?  Any examples or pointers would be most welcome.

I don't know if dojo handles this, but it's possible to do in script. 
You would have to essentially recreate the geometry calculations in the 
script, and write wrappers to effectively position markers at the 
appropriate place (note that orientation is probably going to be tricky).

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Merry XML !

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Jayne De Sesa wrote:
 
 Just wanted to report that on my RIM Blackberry 7290 Wireless Handheld 
 v4.0.2.49 (Platform 
 1.8.0.142) I only got the following message:
 
 An error was encountered while transcoding this file (Error: An internal 
 error was 
 encountered while transcoding this file (Error: The value 100% for 
 attribute width of 
 element svg named $unnamed$0 is invalid.).)

Even though this file was authored for SVG Full 1.1, it should display 
fine in a mobile viewer.  As stated in the SVG Tiny 1.1 spec [1], SVGT 
supports user units only, except for the 'width' and 'height' attributes 
on the outermost 'svg' element where CSS units are also supported. SVGB 
supports both user units and CSS user identifiers.

So, 'svg width=100% ... ' is perfectly valid.

FWIW, SVG Tiny 1.2 [2] also permits percentages in width/height 
attributes of the SVG root 'svg' element.

Maybe you should file a bug report with RIM.


[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/#units
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/struct.html#SVGElementWidthAttribute

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] ASV End-of-life cancelled and IE 7.2 with native SVG support???

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jim-

I don't work for Adobe or Microsoft, but the following is my best 
information.

Jim wrote:
 
  I just read that Adobe has decided to redact their decision to make
  the Adobe SVG Viewer go end-of-life, but I cannot find that in
  writing on Adobe's website.  I believe this is a myth.  Has anyone
  heard about this information or disinformation?

Adobe will discontinue support for ASV as of January 1, 2008.  This has 
not changed.  It means that they will not provide any customer support 
(technical or otherwise) or produce software updates from that time 
forward.  It is not clear whether they will provide critical security 
updates or egregious bug fixes before that time.

What has changed is the availability of the plug-in for download. 
Previously, they stated that as of January 1, 2008, ASV would no longer 
be available for download.  They have now stated that they no longer 
plan to remove the viewer from their downloads page.

 From their FAQ (in PDF, of course) [1]:

When will Adobe remove ASV from the download area?
Adobe does not currently have plans to remove Adobe SVG Viewer from the 
Adobe.com download area. Adobe recognizes that customers have built Web 
applications that depend on ASV being available for download, and 
although Adobe does not plan to develop ASV further, we plan for the 
existing versions to be available for download as long as our customers 
rely on them.


  I think that keeping ASV on the Adobe site (down the road)
  constitutes support for ASV...

Not really.  Many organizations will not allow unsupported software on 
their intranet or networked computers, as they don't want to take the 
risk that it could screw something up with no recourse to a solution. 
So, simply making it available for download is not support.



  Also, is this disinformation or has someone heard that IE will offer
  native support for SVGs in IE 7.2?

Microsoft has no plans to add features to dot-releases of IE.  IE7.2, if 
there is one, will only be bug fixes.  However, IE8 is apparently under 
design or development, and there is some chance that IE will support SVG 
natively in IE8 or 9.  They've stated in the past that they are 
interested in doing so, but big companies work in mysterious ways, and 
there has been no official announcement.



[1] http://www.adobe.com/svg/pdfs/ASV_EOL_FAQ.pdf

Regards-
-Doug




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] SVG Logo Contest

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Last week, the panel of judges for the SVG logo contest decided upon the 
finalists and the winner of the contest.  We are pleased to announce 
that the winning entry is available for viewing here:
http://svglogo.com/finalists.html

Over the next few weeks, we will finalize the actual form (including 
optional animation) and produce versions in both SVG and PNG that will 
be suitable for inclusion on Web pages to indicate the level of SVG 
support needed for proper viewing of the site's content.  It is also 
intended for use on SVG-related product packaging.  We hope that 
everyone will make use of this logo, and increase the brand awareness 
of Scalable Vector Graphics.

Thanks for everyone who contributed to the contest!

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo Contest

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeff-

Jeff Schiller wrote:
 
 I agree - 'brand recognition' is important and I thank 6th Sense
 Analytics and everyone else behind the contest - I think the winning
 choice looks really nice.  Seems like orange is the new black ;)

Thanks, I do too.  Harvey did a great job.  I thought translucent 
reflection was the new black, though.

And I'd like to thank you for being such a staunch supporter of SVG, 
yourself!


 Anyway, I've updated my blog header (http://blog.codedread.com/) with
 the logo in the bottom-right corner.  In true dynamic SVG form, the
 logo is invisible unless you mouse over the blog header image, which
 makes it semi-transparent.  Mousing over the logo makes it fully opaque.  

Very tasteful.  Nice work.


 I've also put an image at the bottom of my home page
 (http://www.codedread.com/) next to the XHTML validation tag (that
 doesn't validate!).

Cool!


 Too bad Firefox/Opera don't support SVG-as-image as we recently
 discussed in this forum.  Having to copy the logo into every SVG file
 we want to reference it is a pain we'll have to endure for the next
 year or more (but thankfully, due to SVG's open nature, this is
 possible!).  

Yeah, I'd like there to be other options there.


 Doug, I hope you'll be doing a better job than I did of hacking the
 logo and ID'ing the elements properly...

I've already started on it in my spare time.  I've made good progress, 
but you know how much of a pain the output from some authoring tools can 
be (in this case, CorelDRAW, as it happens).  As a designer, Harvey 
didn't massage the code (and shouldn't have to)... but for doing things 
like changing colors, animation, and annotation, the SVG will have to be 
cleaned up considerably.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo Contest

[Doug Schepers]

Hey, Cameron-

Cameron McCormack wrote:
 
 Another good thing to do when you’re cleaning it up is to make a version
 of the logo that has the actual “SVG� string as a text element, with an
 SVG font.

I'm way ahead of you, my friend.  And I'm adding in a graphics-only 
fallback with a title and desc in case SVG fonts aren't supported.


 It’s a good logo, by the way!  I’ll see if I can incorporate it into
 Squiggle’s splash screen for the next release…

Awesome!

I'm looking forward to the next release of Squiggle.  It sounds like it 
will have all sorts of goodness in it (in addition to the logo).

Regards-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Slideshow maker

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Like Barend, I also use SVGMaker.  It's good stuff.

Regards-
-Doug

Barend Köbben wrote:
 I use SVGMaker ( http://www.svgmaker.com/), an SVG printer driver to 'print'
 SVG slideshows, including a navigation tool, from eg. PowerPoint or
 OpenOffice, etc...
 
 __ 
 Barend Köbben
 International Institute for Geo-information
 Sciences and Earth Observation (ITC)
 PO Box 6, 7500AA Enschede (The Netherlands)
 ph: +31 (0)53 4874253; fax: +31 (0)53 4874335
 
 
 
 On 12/11/06 10:54 AM, Julien Reichel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Thanks,
  
 All those tools are nice, but they can not be used by a basic user which has
 no knowledge of XMLco.
 I cannot believe that there are no project (or company) trying to provide a
 wysiwyg editor for slideshows in SVG... (and it looks like I'm not the only
 one: 
 http://www.clipperz.com/users/marco/blog/2005/12/28/slidy_and_s5_ready_for_an_
 ajax_editor )
  
 The alternative like http://www.virtualmechanics.com/products/engine/
 http://www.virtualmechanics.com/products/engine/  are sadly too complicated
 to be given to an user which only has experience with Office(PPT, word) like
 tools. 
  
 I was hopping that there was something out there, which I had not found yet,
 but it looks like that there is really something missing.
  
 Julien


 

 From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of steltenpower
 Sent: samedi, 9. décembre 2006 00:15
 To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Slideshow maker



 Or Slidy, or one of the few presented at svgopen(.org)

 --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
 mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com , tbone58x [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 Try S5 - http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/
 http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/


 --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
 mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com , Julien Reichel
 julien.reichel@ wrote:
 Dear all,

 I'm looking for a software/application/or anything else, that could
 help
 creating slideshow in SVG format. The purpose is to be able to
 provide a
 PowerPoint like application to edit slideshows by non-computer
 specialist witch generate slides that can be viewed on many
 different
 platforms. Simply printing PPT slides into a svg or pdf files is not
 sufficient as all animations would be lost.

 I found some links to JackSVG on the web, but I couldn't find the
 software anywhere. Does anybody have an updated link to this tools ?

 Does any of you knows about application (libraries, projects, ...)
 that
 could help me. 

 Thank you in advance, and best regards

 Julien





-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] How to make the code work in Firefox2?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Mahesh-

You need to include the namespace for SVG and XLink in the SVG root, 
like this:

svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'
width=100% height=100% style=fill: white; fill-opacity:0.7

This tells FF (and conforming SVG viewers) that the document is an SVG 
document, and not just some XML that has elements of the same name.

Also, please note that as of right now, FF doesn't support declarative 
animation.  You could use my smilScript [1] JS lib to simulate it, if 
you really need it.

[1] http://www.vectoreal.com/smilscript/


Regards-
-Doug

Mahesh Basantani wrote:
 Dear Members, 
 
 I have written a small SVG code:
 
 svg width=100% height=100% style=fill: white; fill-opacity:0.7
 
 rect x=45 width=12 height=12 fill=purple
 animateTransform attributeName=transform type=rotate
   from=0 to=90 dur=10s
 repeatCount=indefinite/
 /rect
 
 rect x=135 y=35 width=500 height=100 rx=10 ry=10
 style=fill:olive; stroke:purple; stroke-width:6; fill-opacity:0.1;
 stroke-opacity:1/
 
 text x=205px y=110px
 style=fill:purple;font-size:70;font-family:lucida sans italic;
 opacity:1BIOPHILES/text
 
 
 a xlink:href=http://www.arabidopsis.org/;text x=130 y=250
 style=fill:purple; fill-opacity:1TAIR Arabidopsis Database/text/a
 
 a xlink:href=http://www.tigr.org/tdb/e2k1/ath1/;text x=130
 y=295 style=fill:purple; fill-opacity:1TIGR Arabidopsis
 Database/text/a
 
 a
 xlink:href=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mapview/map_search.cgi?taxid=3702;text
 x=130 y=340 style=fill:purple; fill-opacity:1 Arabidopsis
 Genome View at NCBI/text/a
 
 a
 xlink:href=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mapview/static/arabidsearch.html;text
 x=130 y=385 style=fill:purple; fill-opacity:1NCBI Arabidopsis
 Genome /text/a
 
 /svg
 
  I saved the Notepad file with .svg extension. Now, when i open the
 file with Internet Explorer, it works well. The code executes
 properly. But when i try to open it with Firefox 2, it doesn't work. A
 window opens and asks What should Firefox do with this file? Open
 with ... (IE (default) or other ) or Save to disk...
 Could anyone suggest how to fix the problem? 
 
 thanks





-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: FF2 text-anchor bug?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

I made a minimal test case that shows how odd this bug is, and filed a 
bugzilla report [1].  It only happens when you insert text via mouse 
events, not via load events.

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=360869

Regards-
-Doug

jnick421 wrote:
 I have an example and can shed some light on the bug.
 http://www.wpsenergy.com/JayNick/RTG/RTGraph1.svg
 
 The text id=Title ... does not have any child text, but is filled
 in by script.  If I add child text such as a '-', then it works fine.
 http://www.wpsenergy.com/JayNick/RTG/RTGraph.svg
 
 Jay Nick
 
 --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 11/8/06 6:11 PM, Guy Morton wrote:
 It seems in FF2 on Windows that all my text elements that use text- 
 anchor=middle are now positioned incorrectly.

 FF2 on Mac doesn't show the problem (though it has other text bugs)

 Anyone know anything about this? Anyone at Mozilla working on it? It  
 is a MAJOR pain. In fact, FF2 on windows only seems to have gotten  
 worse for SVG, not better, which is disappointing.
 Do you have a testcase?  FF2 on win32 displays the w3c svg testcases 
 using anchor=middle (text-align-01-b, text-align-03-b, and 
 text-align-04-b) fine here.

 -tor


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] FF2 text-anchor bug?

[Doug Schepers]

Hey, Guy-

Not to speak for Tim, but I think he was asking for an minimal test 
case, not a full application where the error was occurring.

If you are having trouble specifically with the text in the tooltip, can 
you break that out into the simplest test case that illustrates the 
problem?  You may even find out what the problem is while you're trying 
to do that, or even find a workaround.  Even if you don't find a 
solution, it will be far easier for others to try to help you.

My intuition is that you are running into a problem with tspan elements.

Regards-
-Doug

Guy Morton wrote:
 Tim? Did you have any luck with this FF2 bug?
 
 Guy
 
 
 On 09/11/2006, at 11:35 AM, T Rowley wrote:
 
 On 11/8/06 6:11 PM, Guy Morton wrote:
 It seems in FF2 on Windows that all my text elements that use text-
 anchor=middle are now positioned incorrectly.

 FF2 on Mac doesn't show the problem (though it has other text bugs)

 Anyone know anything about this? Anyone at Mozilla working on it? It
 is a MAJOR pain. In fact, FF2 on windows only seems to have gotten
 worse for SVG, not better, which is disappointing.
 Do you have a testcase?  FF2 on win32 displays the w3c svg testcases
 using anchor=middle (text-align-01-b, text-align-03-b, and
 text-align-04-b) fine here.

 -tor




-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] SVG, Semantics, and Accessibility (was: For paper or for online?)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
 On 11/3/06, CPK Smithies [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 For present purposes, the significant issue is that SVG - and XML
 projects generally - are being designed to support the ordering and
 design of information in a logical way. The presumption is that the more
 logically information is structured, the easier it is to search and
 process programmatically, and the more accessible it's possible to make
 it for disabled people or for people using limited channels of
 communication.

I don't agree that SVG can't pull double duty as structured markup and 
as pixel-level placement control.  SVG derives its high level of 
structure from XML (and XML best practices should be used, including 
proper markup for text), but in addition it is a visual medium, and so 
has facilities for both the logical structure and the precise 
appearance.  There is no reason for text to be split up in the way I 
complained about.

But...


 This is quite true - that in order to present information to people with
 accessibility needs, the information needs to be as structured as possible
 so that it can be repurposed as appropriate (eg. screen readers, braille
 printers, etc.).  It is one reason that back in PDF 1.4, Adobe introduced
 Structue  Tagging to PDF files - to enable the best of both worlds.
 
 With Mars and SVG, we are still working through the best solutions for how
 to continue to intermix the two - since SVG itself doesn't incorporate the
 level of structure necessary for accessbility.  For example, how do you
 differentiate paragraphs or columns?  (let alone, something as complex as a
 table).  Yes, there are W3C guidelines for such things - and we're working
 through all the options.

... I do agree with Leonard (and CPK Smithies) here that there is a 
missing part of the equation, when it comes to full accessibility.  I'm 
not really sure that there *is* a W3C technology that solves this 
problem (yet), though I'd love to be proved wrong.  But I do applaud 
anyone who is making an effort to get this right... even Adobe. ;) (jk, 
Leonard.)

If anyone is interested, I wrote a ridiculously long post about this in 
my blog at http://schepers.cc/?p=11#more-11 .  I'd welcome examples or 
discussion.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Adobe Mars: static SVG inside PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Leonard-

Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
 On 11/2/06, Doug Schepers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So, please don't take what I say next personally. ;)  Also, these are my
 views, not necessarily those of the SVG WG.

  I won't - don't worry!   In exchange, you can't take my comment
 as attacks on SVG or the work of the committee...

Nope. :) FWIW, it's a Working Group (WG), not a committee... the 
difference being that we don't merely oversee the development of SVG, we 
get our hands dirty and write the technical aspects of the spec itself.


 You are using a small subset of SVG.

  True.  We are MUCH closer to SVG Tiny than to full SVG - and I
 will certainly revisit the Tiny spec, given your later comment on it's
 status to see if we are better served by leveraging that instead of
 SVG Full.

Closer, but SVG Tiny still has advanced text capabilities.  I totally 
understand why you wouldn't include declarative animation for a print 
spec (needless overhead for static content), but the text styling and 
textPath are desirable there.


 The benefits of
 using SVG in this case are not really clear (other than the benefits of
 XML in general [1]).  The content cannot really be repurposed, or
 reliably derived from other SVG generators.

  I disagree with that, since the content CAN be repurposed and
 created from existing generators (or at least some of them).  It also
 enables the use of the myriad of existing SVG libraries to consume the
 content, manipulate it, and regenerate as necessary. 

This assumes that you have sufficient control over the generator to 
restrict its output to the subset of SVG that Mars supports, which is 
quite an assumption.  That Mars's subset is not a proper profile of SVG 
complicates this even further.

As an aside, the text generator you're using for your sample content 
(presumably the same one as in Illustrator?) is making rather chopped-up 
text.  It looks fine from a visual perspective, and will certainly print 
fine, but at the XML level, it's cruddy.  For example, in 
mars_sample_files\1_Basic Document\page\0\pg.svg, there are 2 
instances of the word consumer, but doing a text search will only find 
one... because the first instance is broken up thus: text ... 
 c/texttext ...onsumer/text (for no apparent reason, not even at 
a line break... maybe it's for kerning?  But SVG has a mechanism for 
that... ).  From an XML perspective, that's a step back from HTML.  If 
your intended audience expects to be able to use Mars files digitally, 
including search capabilities, you should fix that.  I'd be happy to 
give you advice.


 This is a real disappointment to me.  Adobe is going from having one of
 the most complete SVG implementations, to have one of the least.

  I think the problem here is one of marketing :(.  And I do
 understand your disappointment in not finding in Mars the replacement
 for ASV. 

No, I wasn't expecting that.  But there are needless restrictions on 
content that would be appropriate for print.


 But that's not it's goal - nor do I expect it will ever be.
 However, it is an EXCELLENT opportunity for the SVG community to
 leverage it's experience and tool set on a file format that will have
 a much wider impact (sorry to say it, but it's true).

No, it's not true.  It may be an informed opinion, and it may even be 
likely, but it's not a fact.  Just because Adobe backs something doesn't 
guarantee its success (or even that Adobe will see it through the 
gates).  Meanwhile, SVG Tiny is storming over the mobile world, and is 
becoming natively supported across browsers (just one more to go).  No 
offense, but I think you're looking at this measure of success through 
document-centric glasses, rather than as documents and applications and 
graphics.

Of course, this is just *my* opinion.


  Taking off my Adobe hat for a second... _I_ was the one who (as a
 3rd party developer) fought for the use of SVG for Mars's page
 content.  It's something, that you know from my participation here
 over the years, that I believe in. 

I have no doubt in your personal intent, and I thank you for your 
dedication to open standards.


 Even in the subset that it is
 today, the use of SVG as part of Mars continues to breath life into
 SVG - and in my opinion will only HELP to bring it back to the
 mainstream!

It's possible.


 I'm hoping that Adobe will come around once again
 to see the benefits of really using SVG (in print and on the Web).

   If you are looking for Adobe to adopt SVG as a replacement for
 Flash or PDF - it's simply not going to happen.(and any discussion
 on this can go to /dev/null)

No, I am realistic enough to not consider that for a moment.  It *could* 
support SVG in its Flash player (as Macromedia claimed for FlashLite), 
but I don't see that happening either.


   HOWEVER, there is an EXCELLENT opportunity for SVG to thrive
 (albiet in a limited form) inside of Mars.  We had SVG in PDF before -
 and Adobe took

[svg-developers] Re: Adobe Mars: static SVG inside PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Leonard-

Congrats on your new post.  Your experience with PDF and SVG make you a 
valuable team member for Adobe, I'm sure.

So, please don't take what I say next personally. ;)  Also, these are my 
views, not necessarily those of the SVG WG.


Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
 On 11/2/06, Andreas Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The lack of some of the text features, markers and textpath hurts and
 is certainly a problem when it comes to creating maps on demand or
 other more complex graphics.

  The issue is that although we are using SVG syntax, we are using
 it for a different purpose than a true SVG viewer.  We are using it
 in a way similar to the original 1.0 (eg. a pre-layed out static
 rendering) as opposed to the more modern dynamic rendering of 1.1
 and 1.2.

I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of SVG 1.0.  From the 
beginning, SVG was intended to have rich text features, including 
textPath, text styling, and text positioning.  Markers, rich colors, 
filters... all of these are SVG 1.0 features, and it is a 
misrepresentation to claim or insinuate otherwise.


  What you need to remember, is that Mars does NOT contain an SVG
 rendering engine.  It's not our intent to reinvent ASV inside of
 PDF.  Instead, we are using SVG (a standard XML grammar) as a way to
 represent PDF graphics.  This is true for all parts of Mars.  It's NOT
 a replacement for PDF - it's just another way to represent/serialize
 the existing data objects.

You are using a small subset of SVG.  Nothing wrong with that, of 
course, but it doesn't make you conformant to any standard, any more 
than using the p, ul, and table elements in isolation in some 
other format would make that format conforming HTML.  The benefits of 
using SVG in this case are not really clear (other than the benefits of 
XML in general [1]).  The content cannot really be repurposed, or 
reliably derived from other SVG generators.  As it stands, it only works 
within your particular environment, undercutting the whole point of an 
open standard.

This is a real disappointment to me.  Adobe is going from having one of 
the most complete SVG implementations, to have one of the least.  I'm 
afraid I have to agree with Andreas here, though without his optimism. 
Using SVG in this way sounds like a superficial marketing bulletpoint.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm hoping that Adobe will come around once again 
to see the benefits of really using SVG (in print and on the Web).  But 
this ain't it, and I'll call bullshit on any PR attempts to make 
sunshine out of shadows.


 For the long run I hope
 that Adobe Mars will support all the static SVG features when it
 targets the print world with Mars.

 Mars extends SVG to support numerous high end printing feature
 that are present in PDF but not standard SVG (or even SVG-P(rint))
 such as Overprinting and Knockout.

As you may be aware, now that SVG Tiny 1.2 is in CR phase (that is, in 
the can, so to speak), work has resumed on SVG-Print, aiming at just the 
high-end printing market you describe.  It would be great if Adobe (and 
everyone else) were to contribute a list of features that are needed, so 
that we can have an open print graphics standard that will address 
market needs without reverting to proprietary formats.


[1] http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/53513

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] CSS in SVG (was: Adobe Mars: static SVG inside PDF)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

For those of you who don't know, I'm not a big fan of CSS.  In general, 
I don't care much for the set of problems they chose to solve or not 
solve, and I'm not convinced that the manner in which the solutions were 
approached was a good choice in retrospect.  To be fair, it may be that 
the implementations of CSS are to blame, not the CSS specifications 
themselves.

Specifically, though, I don't think CSS is that useful outside of 
HTML... in particular, I don't think it's well-suited for use in SVG. 
Thus, my following questions and comments.

Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
 On 11/2/06, brucerindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 1.  No CSS attrubutes in SVG.  While XML attributes are possible, it
 is just easier in some cases to use style attributes in SVG.  The lack
 of support in Mars will make this very difficult.

Bruce, what specific aspects of CSS do you normally use that would make 
its absence very difficult?  I'm assuming you use classes, rather than 
selectors?  What use cases in SVG do you have that are solved by CSS, 
and is CSS as it stands adequate for those use cases or could it (or 
some other mechanism) be changed to suit them better?


 We are simply following the SVG committee itself in the movement
 away from CSS to attributes - because attributes are more in line with
 XML philosophy and can be MUCH more easily validated  schema'd.

Just to set the record straight, that isn't really accurate.  SVG Tiny 
1.2 doesn't use CSS (nor did SVG Tiny 1.1), but mainly as a footprint 
issue for smaller devices, not out of a philosophical or technical 
disagreement with CSS.  SVG Full will still use CSS, and we are planning 
to work more closely with the CSS WG to make sure that authors have the 
best options available.

Admittedly, opinions about the utility of CSS in SVG do differ in the 
SVG Working Group; I am clearly not a proponent of CSS, but there are 
other active members of the SVG WG take the opposing view.  All of us 
agree that for the CDF (Compound Document Format, or 
XHTML+SVG+CSS+JS+??) use case, CSS is very important, and how exactly it 
works with SVG should be clearly defined.


Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: pb with asynchronous xmlHttpRequest

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

richard_smith_ons wrote:
 I don't know if it's possible to do a real progress bar like in 
 Flash. Below is my code for a fake one. [...]

 In the same idea, is there a way to do like Flash when it is first 
 loaded : Displaying an image like Loading… while all the loading 
 is fully processed…

Richard supplies a good workaround.  As he says, there is nothing in 
SVG1.1 (which is what most UAs support) to handle progress events, but 
it is part of SVG Tiny 1.2 (and all later specs) [1].

If you really need a true progress bar for now, rather than simply 
showing a waiting graphic, you could poll the server for the size of 
each chunk that needs to be downloaded, and reflect that in the overall 
proportion of the download bar that you reveal, but there is no real way 
to get the connection speed, so it will be limited in its accuracy.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/svgudom.html#events__ProgressEvent

Regards-
-Doug



-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[svg-developers] [Fwd: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 39436] - Duplicate and Incorrect MIME Type for SVG]

[Doug Schepers]

One more thing to make deploying SVG easier.  :)

-Doug

 Original Message 
Subject: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 39436]  - Duplicate and Incorrect MIME Type 
for SVG
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:16:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=39436


[EMAIL PROTECTED] changed:

What|Removed |Added

  Status|NEW |RESOLVED
  Resolution||FIXED





-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Need help with Javascript in SVG!!!

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, starki-

starki_chr wrote:
 CIAO
 I've have a set of dynamically created barcharts that call
 via onclick a java-script function to create a tooltip showing 
 information for the clicked barchart.
 This functionality is already implemented.
 Now I would like be able to delete this tooltip 
 through a second onclick-event on the barchart, 
 how is this possible
 Can someone show me how to achieve this goal!

Here's a simple tooltip example:
http://svg-whiz.com/svg/Tooltip2.svg

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Adobe extends ASV customer support and download availability

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Pat-

Paton J. Lewis wrote:
 In response to customer feedback, Adobe has extended customer support 
 and download availability for Adobe SVG Viewer. Customer support for 
 Adobe SVG Viewer will now cease on January 1, 2008; downloads of 
 Adobe SVG Viewer will cease on January 1, 2009.
 
 For details, please see http://www.adobe.com/svg/eol.html

Thanks for the update.  I think this is a much more responsible approach 
by Adobe.  I feel confident that a replacement can be made in that time.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] SVG authoring - web based applications

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
 Doug,
 
 given the underwhelming response, so far 0 yes nill null nix online  
 SVG editors, it might be as well to draw a team together to work on a  
 web2.0 version, for which I have some excellent proposals

I applaud any such project, but just don't have time to contribute myself.


 had hoped we might be able to start from somewhere other than ground  
 zero ~:

On various recent threads, there have been other such online drawing 
apps, so you wouldn't be starting from scratch.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://standraise.corp.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://standraise.corp.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] SVG authoring - web based applications

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Ronan-

How embarrassing!  I didn't realize that there was still a copy of that 
on my site.  It was one of the first things I wrote in SVG, 5 years ago 
or more, and it only works in ASV.  To the extent that it does function, 
it is buggy and poorly written (although a neat idea to this day).

It took me months to write, and would be a nightmare to fix or to 
support.  My intent is to rewrite it from scratch One Of These Days, but 
in the meantime, I'm afraid I've had to shoot that horse.

Ronan Oger wrote:
 There's Doug Schepers's example:
 
 http://www.svg-whiz.com/current/svg-whiz.html
 


Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: COALITION - (WAS: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Guy-

Guy Morton wrote:
 Yeah, but it's not too professional-looking to have to give a list of  
 abandoned websites that happen to host the plugin and hope that joe  
 public will trust that any software thus downloaded isn't riddled  
 with virii and worms. who's going to guarantee that it isn't? You?

I think you hit the nail on the head.

My employer targets big companies, who don't like deploying things that 
are unsupported, and who tend to use IE.  I'm sure a solution will be 
soon in coming, but hosting illegal copies of ASV (long abandoned, but 
still technically supported) or using long-dead versions of Corel's 
viewer are not going to fly with these companies, and will hardly give 
credibility to SVG.

It is not the question of availability of a viewer, it is a question of 
the legitimacy and perception of viability of the viewer.


  I love civil disobedience as much as the next man, but seriously, i
  don't think this is much of an option.

Same here.  I like Nico's idea and attitude, but pragmatically it won't 
fly for all needs.  Having the status of a technology pending the 
resolution of a lawsuit will not inspire confidence.


Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Animation in Mozilla Firefox

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
 
 You can wait for Firefox to finish their implementation...
 
 I believe it is possible to write a javascript parser that changes  
 animation into javascripted stuff. I am not sure how efficient it would  
 be, and whether anyone has done it...

I have a partial implementation, called smilScript, that I am reworking 
as a Firefox extension.  I hope to release in early October.


Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Richard-

My experience with Dojo is not all that comprehensive, and like you, I'm 
just starting to look into Dojo2D (I'd exchanged emails with Gavin 
Doughtie, but only on a preliminary level).  But I'll answer your 
questions as best I can.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Thanks, at least there are some options but correct me if i'm wrong, Dojo2D 
 interpretes SVG into VML for IE 

That is the current plan, yes.


 and if its FF, Opera, Safari it would not 
 need to use Dojo, or if it did it would be output as SVG. 

Well, the whole point of using Dojo is that you would be using Dojo's 
abstracted layer, so you wouldn't make 2 codebases, one with SVG and one 
with the Dojo2D framework... you would simply use Dojo, and it would 
deliver the content in a way that the browser understands.


 What would happen if IE get rid of VML?

Theoretically, Dojo could then change its low-level code to target 
whatever vector-format *is* available in IE, and you wouldn't have to 
change your high-level code.  Maybe it would render it as Flash, or 
XAML, or best case, SVG if IE substituted VML for SVG or if a common 
plug-in were available.  Worst-case scenario, they could raterize it on 
the server, perhaps, and deliver static PNGs (or even animated MNGs, if 
they were supported).  Some small level of interactivity could even be 
preserved by using on-the-fly imagemaps.

Naturally, this would take time and a reworking of the open-source 
Dojo2D library, but I'm sure that MS will not abandon VML without fair 
warning (then again, I didn't think Adobe would give such short notice 
either).


 Im reading up on Dojo just to get an idea but would welcome your comments on 
 the above as you have some experience in this area.

But let me close by saying that while looking into other options is 
prudent (I'm doing it myself), there's actually a lot that can happen in 
4 months, and even more in a year and 4 months.  It's not like the SVG 
implementors would be starting from scratch.  There are suitable SVG 
viewers out there that need only to be adapted as IE plug-ins.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] It is irresponsible for Adobe to give such short notice.

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Chaals-

Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
 
 Adobe is a company. It is irresponible for them to make bad commercial  
 decisions. 

In fact, it is not only irresponsible, under US corporate law, it is 
illegal for corporations to make decisions that harm their shareholder's 
stock (see the interesting documentary The Corporation).

This raises the question, though... is this decision good or bad for 
Adobe's stockholders?  That has yet to be seen.


  They have no moral obligation to be nice to the people who use
 their products (and in this case it is a product people just used and  
 never paid for).
 
 In my opinion, they are setting a bad precedent by withdrawing their  
 viewer completely so fast. They have a competing technology solution,  
 where there is a much higher lock-in factor than SVG - but if this is the  
 way they deal with customers, how attractive is it to give them even more  
 power over you?

As you imply, acting immorally is legal, but may have undesirable 
consequences.


 There are alternatives. 

I'd like to point out that one of the alternatives is the excellent 
Opera browser (Chaals' employer)... and Firefox, and Safari...

I know that we often cannot control what browser our target audience 
uses, but we can influence it.  By pointing out the advantages of modern 
browsers, policies can change at a corporate level.  Let your clients 
know that these other browsers support not only SVG, but also have other 
benefits as well (security, cross-platform support, better standards 
compliance so more sites will appear as intended, desktop widgets, and 
other features).

My company is considering distributing copies of an SVG-enabled browser 
as one of its options.


  Adobe has said they will make the plugin available
 for another year and a half. And frankly, I expect that in total breach of  
 copyright law the Adobe plugin will still be readily available on the web  
 if Adobe removes it from their site.

I'm sure you're right.  In addition, if you sign their distribution 
agreement (available on their site, though who knows for how long), you 
can distribute it on a CD bundle (though you must keep their installer). 
  But I would only want to use it as a very last resort... it's been 
dead for a long time, and it's going to stay dead.  I'll probably keep 
it around for testing, but I expect to dump it for even that as soon as 
possible.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I spose we are now in the hands of
 
 http://www.gosvg.net/
 

I just want to note here that the team behind the Renesis SVG viewer is 
under new management... there is a new company, EmiaSys, with only the 
core technical staff, and with a different financial backer.  From what 
I understand, the original parent company, EvolGrafiX, was a source of a 
lot of the frustrations we felt.  I think we should keep an open mind 
about the Renesis platform.  I've been talking to EmiaSys casually for a 
couple months as an SVG WG member (they've been asking about some 
technical matters related to SVG Tiny 1.2) and they seem much more 
focused than before.

But I agree with Ronan's post in this thread.  There are several options 
out there, including existing SVG viewers that haven't bothered to 
create plug-ins for IE because Adobe had already staked that ground out. 
  This does represent an opportunity for one or more companies to prove 
their mettle.

I would like to see several viewers available...  not just for 
redundancy, but to drive innovation.  Even if IE ends up supporting SVG, 
we won't know to what degree or how cross-browser compatible it will be, 
so as a business decision, I would like to have the option to distribute 
an alternate viewer of my choosing that has all the features that I 
need.  I would not be surprised if companies using SVG would pay for 
support and distribution contracts, something Adobe never offered.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
 
 In case of complete mozilla SVG developer obtuseness as currently  
 available in bucket loads: it is an accessibility issue, a usability  
 issue and if commonsense and commercial realism aren't enough an  
 enhancement request as well. However they know best... audio will  
 irritate most people

Quit taking my words out of context.  As I said to you on IRC a couple 
days ago, peepo, I don't want you to have the impression that I don't 
think audio is important.  I do.  I love that SVGT1.2 now has a 
standardized way to implement it in browsers.  I will push for them to 
do so [browsers to implement it].  I just don't think it's needed for a 
logo.  My statement was clearly about specific content (the logo), not 
about the capability of the UA.

Imagine this scenario:  a user goes to a page where the author indicates 
that to view the content, they will need an SVG viewer;  this was common 
in the early days of Flash, and until SVG is widely available on IE, I 
think this is may be the most common use case for the logo (I know my 
company uses a similar indicator on the log-in screen).

The user either has SVG capability (they are using a modern browser or 
have a plug-in), or they go and get it (we hope!) and come back.  There, 
they are hit with the ding-Ding-DING or fwoosh! or (basso profundo) 
SVG Powered! sound of the logo.  Maybe they ignore it, or maybe they 
hear it once and think, Hah, that's cute.

Then they visit the site again.  And again.  And they go to another site 
that uses the SVG logo.  And as SVG becomes even more popular (I'm an 
optimist, remember), they hear that sound more and more.

The user doesn't want to browse with the sound off on their computer 
because they are listening to their iTunes, or disable audio in their 
browser because they are streaming Pandora.

I have no doubt that they would come to associate that sound with SVG, 
it's true... but the flip side is that they would start associating SVG 
with that dang sound that keeps hitting them every time they stumble on 
a page using SVG.  It happens when they are browsing at work, in a cafe, 
etc.  For me, the irritation would start to really kick in right around 
the 2nd or 3rd time, and grow from there.  Sorry, but I don't want SVG 
to become associated with the aural equivalent of the blink tag.

So, what does a sensible SVG author do?  They take out the sound, or use 
the sound-free version (which I assure you, the logo contest would 
provide).  Accessibility, as you know, is something that only works well 
when it is consistent (such as by providing an inobtrusive text 
fallback).  If the sound is present some places, but not others, it 
merely sends a mixed indicator to those who would benefit from it, which 
is actually even worse.

Finally, what makes you think that visually-impaired people want to be 
assailed by sound any more than sighted people?  Do you think I like 
having Flash banners blinking at me from the sidebar or top of the page? 
  Let's be clear: when you are talking about accessibility, are you 
talking about for the visually-impaired, or for some other group?

We could provide a more discrete way to activate the sound than on load 
time, such as when the user focuses it (clicking on the logo, or tabbing 
to it).  But this has several drawbacks:
1)  It drastically increases the file size (in which case authors will 
use the smaller sound-free version, see above);
2)  If the user already has a screen-reader, the sound would obscure the 
voicing of the text equivalent provided by the metadata/text fallback;
3)  Finding a professional-quality distinctive sound would be even more 
difficult and expensive than finding a professional-quality logo, since 
it's not as common a hobby and is even more subject to taste (and I'm 
not willing to settle for a mediocre sound).

Now imagine some different scenarios:  I am building a Web application, 
and I provide discreet but clear UI sounds... clicks, slides, zooms (for 
the record, this is not theoretical, I've done this at a client's 
behest, for special-needs kids, and it worked well).  Or, I provide an 
audio help system, or a tutorial.  Or I make a simple audio mixer in 
SVG.  Or I have an audio and/or video streaming player in SVG in my 
browser.  Or, like your site, when the user focuses a particular icon, a 
specific sound is played.

These are all good uses of sound in SVG... or rather, good uses of sound 
on the Web.  They have context and enhance --rather than detract from-- 
the user experience.  I'm very glad that we are starting to make this 
possible (after way too long).

Having it on a logo?  Not appropriate.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
 
 In case of complete mozilla SVG developer obtuseness as currently  
 available in bucket loads: it is an accessibility issue, a usability  
 issue and if commonsense and commercial realism aren't enough an  
 enhancement request as well. However they know best... audio will  
 irritate most people

Quit taking my words out of context.  As I said to you on IRC a couple 
days ago, peepo, I don't want you to have the impression that I don't 
think audio is important.  I do.  I love that SVGT1.2 now has a 
standardized way to implement it in browsers.  I will push for them to 
do so [browsers to implement it].  I just don't think it's needed for a 
logo.  My statement was clearly about specific content (the logo), not 
about the capability of the UA.

Imagine this scenario:  a user goes to a page where the author indicates 
that to view the content, they will need an SVG viewer;  this was common 
in the early days of Flash, and until SVG is widely available on IE, I 
think this is may be the most common use case for the logo (I know my 
company uses a similar indicator on the log-in screen).

The user either has SVG capability (they are using a modern browser or 
have a plug-in), or they go and get it (we hope!) and come back.  There, 
they are hit with the ding-Ding-DING or fwoosh! or (basso profundo) 
SVG Powered! sound of the logo.  Maybe they ignore it, or maybe they 
hear it once and think, Hah, that's cute.

Then they visit the site again.  And again.  And they go to another site 
that uses the SVG logo.  And as SVG becomes even more popular (I'm an 
optimist, remember), they hear that sound more and more.

The user doesn't want to browse with the sound off on their computer 
because they are listening to their iTunes, or disable audio in their 
browser because they are streaming Pandora.

I have no doubt that they would come to associate that sound with SVG, 
it's true... but the flip side is that they would start associating SVG 
with that dang sound that keeps hitting them every time they stumble on 
a page using SVG.  It happens when they are browsing at work, in a cafe, 
etc.  For me, the irritation would start to really kick in right around 
the 2nd or 3rd time, and grow from there.  Sorry, but I don't want SVG 
to become associated with the aural equivalent of the blink tag.

So, what does a sensible SVG author do?  They take out the sound, or use 
the sound-free version (which I assure you, the logo contest would 
provide).  Accessibility, as you know, is something that only works well 
when it is consistent (such as by providing an inobtrusive text 
fallback).  If the sound is present some places, but not others, it 
merely sends a mixed indicator to those who would benefit from it, which 
is actually even worse.

Finally, what makes you think that visually-impaired people want to be 
assailed by sound any more than sighted people?  Do you think I like 
having Flash banners blinking at me from the sidebar or top of the page? 
  Let's be clear: when you are talking about accessibility, are you 
talking about for the visually-impaired, or for some other group?

We could provide a more discrete way to activate the sound than on load 
time, such as when the user focuses it (clicking on the logo, or tabbing 
to it).  But this has several drawbacks:
1)  It drastically increases the file size (in which case authors will 
use the smaller sound-free version, see above);
2)  If the user already has a screen-reader, the sound would obscure the 
voicing of the text equivalent provided by the metadata/text fallback;
3)  Finding a professional-quality distinctive sound would be even more 
difficult and expensive than finding a professional-quality logo, since 
it's not as common a hobby and is even more subject to taste (and I'm 
not willing to settle for a mediocre sound).

Now imagine some different scenarios:  I am building a Web application, 
and I provide discreet but clear UI sounds... clicks, slides, zooms (for 
the record, this is not theoretical, I've done this at a client's 
behest, for special-needs kids, and it worked well).  Or, I provide an 
audio help system, or a tutorial.  Or I make a simple audio mixer in 
SVG.  Or I have an audio and/or video streaming player in SVG in my 
browser.  Or, like your site, when the user focuses a particular icon, a 
specific sound is played.

These are all good uses of sound in SVG... or rather, good uses of sound 
on the Web.  They have context and enhance --rather than detract from-- 
the user experience.  I'm very glad that we are starting to make this 
possible (after way too long).

Having it on a logo?  Not appropriate.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Richard-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Doug
 
 Yeh it would be good to perhaps have some idea of where we are going, our 
 apps rely heavily on SVG (closed apps that have logins) but my head is 
 spinning at the moment what to do. Maybe I should leave it for another 12 
 months and then start to worry 8 months or so before ASV gewts pulled, 
 hopefully there will be good news around the corner, unfortunatley all our 
 users use IE, we are rewriting a new version to include FF, Opera and 
 Safari, but IE is still the main browser.
 
 I hear Ajax , Dojo2d, laszlo, emiasyswhich is the right path.oh 
 dear.

Well, I don't think it's all that confusing.  The choices really break 
down to 3 options:

1) hope/work toward SVG support in IE, either native or via a plugin 
(EmiaSys and all others mentioned on this list fall into this category)

2) use an abstracted framework that delivers whatever graphics format is 
appropriate for the target platform (Ajax, Dojo2d, laszlo all fall into 
this category)

3) use some other technology (XAML and Flash [possibly laszlo?] fall 
into this category)

I'm avoiding category 3 like the plague.  The nice thing is that 
categories 1 and 2 are orthogonal... a business can use a framework, and 
when IE SVG support is stable, reexamine if they still need that 
framework.  It can be a permanent commitment (dojo has a lot of 
advantages apart from SVG) or a stopgap.

I can tell you what my company is considering doing, and maybe that 
might help inform your choices.  We are already using dojo, so we will 
be investigating how well our content can be presented in dojo2D.  I 
admit to some initial skepticism; VML is really limited, but I will 
follow up on it and see how much can be done.  If it is designed 
correctly, it could deliver SVG to FF, Opera, Safari, etc., VML to base 
IE, and SVG to IE+SVG (either via plug-in or native, down the line).

dojo2D pros:
* abstracted development layer
* browser independent
* doesn't matter if IE has an SVG plug-in or not

dojo2D cons:
* dependence on dojo framework (not so bad for my company)
* new abstracted layer to learn
* may not be as full-featured as programming to native SVG 
implementations (lowest common denominator)

But my real aim is finding a replacement for ASV.  Having spent a few 
days taking stock of our options, I am pretty confident that with the 
will behind this group, the commercial opportunities and incentives for 
other companies, and the available resources (both open and closed 
source), we will be able to get at least fair SVG support for IE.

Of course, Adobe could help this along by providing the code to help us 
do this, rather than aggressively attacking SVG.  As has been said 
before, they have every right to stop supporting ASV, but their next 
move determines how they will be seen in doing so.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
 Doug,
 
 I don't know what else is falling apart in your life, but you need to  
 take a break.

Actually, my life is going just fine, but thanks for your concern.  In 
fact, I will be taking a nice vacation in a few days.


 my previous email was clearly labelled a reply to jeff's email, not  
 that you couldn't reply, but really your rant had absolutely nothing  
 to do with my email, which again had nothing to do with logos.

When I am quoted out of context, and the context in which I made the 
statement was the logo, I am going to step in and contextual that quoted 
statement.

To some degree, I represent the SVG WG, and thus I feel a responsibility 
to clarify disinformation about where the working group stands. 
Including audio (to the objection of several people) in SVG Tiny 1.2 was 
a clear commitment to progressive Web standards, including 
accessibility, a fact I'd have thought you would appreciate.

If you don't want me to respond and to reestablish context for my public 
comments, then don't (mis)quote me.  That seems pretty straightforward.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jon-

I feel the very same way.  We need a standardized way to deliver audio 
and video, that's clear.  There are some detractors of SVG that complain 
about audio and video being in SVG, but it needs to happen somewhere 
(and after all, it's really just extending the hosted SMIL).

I think that we should actually mandate some open video format, such as 
Ogg Theora:
http://www.theora.org/theorafaq.html

Regards-
-Doug

Jon Ferraiolo wrote:
 
 Hi Jonathan,
 You asked, so I will answer. My opinion on audio and video is that I hope
 the browser vendors see the multimedia light and implement the SMIL timing
 and animation modules. They have to implement most of it anyway for SVG
 1.1, so why not have a bit of foresight and:
 
 * implement the few extra bits needed for future support for what is needed
 for SVG-t 1.2
 * implement the timing and animation engines as separate modules from SVG
 so that it can be used on HTML also (similar to HTML+TIME in IE5.5)
 * support SVG-t 1.2's audio and video tags in conjuntion with SVG content
 * support audio and video content in conjunction with HTML's object tag
 
 The tricky part is inclusion of industry-standard codecs, some of which
 require paying licensing fees, which is hard for freely downloadable
 software. To get around this issue, the browser vendors should hook into
 existing audio/video player software (QuickTime, WMP, even maybe Flash) via
 the HTML object tag which they control from their built-in SMIL engine.
 
 I think this is an important issue for that part of the industry that wants
 to create standards-compliant content and not rely on proprietary formats
 and single-vendor runtimes. Multimedia is hitting the mainstream (driven in
 part by all of those young people uploading bad videos for the world to
 see). We need a standards-based approach to playing that content in
 conjunction with rich user interfaces.
 
 Jon
 
 
 Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Web Architect, Emerging Technologies
 IBM, Menlo Park, CA
 Mobile: +1-650-464-7817

 Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:  
 
 Jon,
 
 among other significant outstanding bugs that mozilla/firefox is
 being really slow to resolve is the issue of audio or sound.
 
 Aywk adobe had sound support from the start as does flash. in fact
 many authors use flash solely to provide audio on webpages.
 
 I just wondered whether you had considered this issue and whether you
 felt it had relevance.
 
 cheers
 
 Jonathan Chetwynd


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Geoffrey-

Yes, I for one welcome our new vector format overlords. ;)

I do agree that Flash is a little underpowered in the programming side 
(from what I've seen).  But XAML is way too overworked.  I think SVG is 
in a sweet spot between the two, and it's based on standards that are 
widely implemented.

We don't know yet how SVG in IE will play out, but I'm not ready to jump 
ship yet.

Regards-
-Doug

Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
 By abandoning SVG, the net effect for us and Adobe is that XAML is going to
 be the way to go. 
 
  
 
 Unless Adobe massively changes Flash to have a decent editor and improves
 the ease of programming I just don't see it gaining a lot of developer
 interest. Why should I pay almost $1000 for Flash and its tedious,
 user-hostile graphic editor, the non-intuitive and overly animation-focused
 timeline editor, when the same $1000 buys me the MSDN library including XAML
 that was designed from the ground up to be a programmable graphical
 environment?
 
  
 
 If you don't have $1000 for MSDN, just Notepad and a good XAML book 
 online help should get you a long ways, especially for web-based stuff.
 
  
 
 Microsoft can leverage their position as the largest software company to
 make XAML a very complete solution in a way that nobody else can manage. I'm
 sure that it will be, as usual, somewhat overdeveloped and bloated, but
 since it is part of the graphical underpinnings of Vista, they must have got
 it to work, unlike - for example - Firefox SVG which is still way behind the
 soon-to-be-orphaned Adobe plug-in.
 
  
 
 If I am going to have to pick one technology, I'll take the one that runs on
 most of the computers. I am also picking the one that makes development
 easy. If it happens to be Open Source, fine, but if XAML ends up being the
 way to go, so be it. It really helps to have a revenue stream to pay for a
 lot of talented work. Just 5% of Microsoft's Vista budget is hundreds of
 millions of dollars - even Adobe does not have that kind of money to spend
 on this.
 
  
 
 By early next year IE7 and Vista will be released. Almost everyone running
 XP will be automatically upgraded to IE7, so coverage will be fairly large
 in a few weeks after the release. 
 
  
 
 I don't agree with the reviewers that think that Vista / IE7 are a warmed
 over copy of Apple and Firefox. Perhaps the user interfaces are nothing
 really new, but under the hood is a whole host of improvements are going to
 make development of custom graphical applications a lot easier. XAML is at
 the core of this, and I am looking forward to it.


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 
Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/WktRrD/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM
~- 

-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeff-

As usual, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I have been taking stock on exactly the options you have gone over. 
Mozilla is open source and of high quality.  Renesis has made good 
progress and is planning some very interesting things for their October 
release.  Amanith is just lovely, but they have no DOM or scripting.

All of these have one thing in common:  we need to figure out how to 
package any or all of these as a plug-in/Add On for IE.  We would need 
information on:

* The basic packaging of how this would work, including managing how the 
target content (SVG) is recognized and rendered.  I have looked around, 
but could not find a clear set of instructions... I'm sure it's out 
there, though.  Possibly we can even find even a stub that will serve as 
a template.

* How to manage SVG-HTML communication, possibly between different 
scripting engines.

* How to inline SVG insofar as IE is capable of this (optional).

* How to do all this in a way that will work even if MS IE changes their 
architecture because of the Eolas lawsuit.

I welcome any clues about any of the above.  The Corel and Mobiform 
viewers all had at least some of the above, and though at least Corel is 
dead, maybe we can find someone from those fronts with the proper 
knowledge.

Regards-
-Doug


Jeff Schiller wrote:
 We can't rely on Microsoft, just like we shouldn't have been 
 comfortable relying on Adobe, to do the right thing and implement 
 native support for SVG for free.  There are business considerations 
 that will always take priority.  Even if they do it, I fear 
 compatibility issues - their browser engine is still the worst of the 
 major browsers out there.
 
 So where are the open source, cross-platform SVG 1.1 viewers ?  What 
 about taking the Mozilla base and developing a browser plugin from 
 that for only SVG support?  What about candidates like AmanithVG and 
 Renesis for a SVG 1.2 viewer?  Let's get a list of all the candidate 
 open-source projects and contribute so that they flourish before Jan 
 2008.
 
 And I agree with Jon - praise to Adobe for past support, but I cry 
 foul to MacroAdobe for this distinctly hostile gesture towards this 
 development community.  They know there is no suitable replacement 
 for IE as of today.
 
 Jeff


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jon-

jon_ferraiolo wrote:
 Hi Marc,
 I think you misunderstood me. I was replying to Margie about how 
 best to encourage Adobe to change their policy. I agree that Adobe 
 isn't likely to rethink their commitment to Flash/Flex, but they 
 might rethink some other things, such as making ASV available for 
 downloads after 1/1/08, supporting ASV beyond 1/1/07, and/or 
 donating the source code to open source.

Jon, you are an optimist... and I mean that in a good way.  I admire 
your propensity for finding solutions rather than dwelling on the problem.

I think the ideal case would be for Adobe to release the source for the 
non-proprietary parts of the plug-in (I have no hope that they would 
release the graphics engine).  This would give us a boost in creating a 
replacement, and would relieve them of their moral responsibility.

Failing that, I like your suggestion of lengthening their terms by a 
reasonable time... say, a year each.

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, folks-

There is a FAQ associated with this announcement, but of course, it's in 
Web-unfriendly PDF.  I'm forwarding on the text version for your 
information.

Not only are they stopping support for the viewer, which is reasonable, 
but they are preventing anyone from distributing it other than on an 
intranet.  In my opinion, this is unjustified and downright rude.  the 
short timeframe in which this is happening, 16 months, is not much time 
for another viewer to come up to speed.

I think we should urge Adobe to allow the viewer to be distributed as 
needed, even if Adobe does not provide support or updates.

That said, we will need to transition to a non-ASV SVG environment, 
which stresses even more the need to code to standards rather than to a 
particular implementation.

-
FAQ
-


ASV EOL FAQ

Adobe® SVG Viewer
End of Life
Frequently Asked Questions




This document provides answers to frequently asked questions about 
Adobe’s decision to
discontinue support for Adobe SVG Viewer (“ASV”).



Why did Adobe decide to discontinue support for 
ASV?...1
When will Adobe discontinue customer support for 
ASV?1
When will Adobe remove ASV from the download 
area?...1
Can I host the ASV installer on my own web 
site?...2
Will Adobe provide future security patch releases of 
ASV?2
Will Adobe support future SVG specifications in its authoring 
products?...2
Will ASV install and run on Microsoft Windows 
Vista?.2
Can I create my own installer for 
ASV?.2
 

What products can I use instead of 
ASV?..2
 

Will Adobe release the source code for 
ASV?...2
 

Will Adobe still participate in the SVG working 
group?.3
Where can I find more 
information?.3
 

What SVG and ASV community forums are 
available?..3


Why did Adobe decide to discontinue support for ASV?

There are a number of other third-party SVG viewer implementations in 
the marketplace,
including native support for SVG in many Web browsers. The SVG language 
and its
adoption in the marketplace have both matured to the point where it is 
no longer
necessary for Adobe to provide an SVG viewer.

When will Adobe discontinue customer support for ASV?

Adobe Customer Support will no longer provide support for Adobe SVG 
Viewer as of
January 1, 2007.

When will Adobe remove ASV from the download area?

Adobe currently plans to remove Adobe SVG Viewer from the Adobe.com 
download
area on January 1, 2008.

Can I host the ASV installer on my own web site?

You may post the Adobe SVG Viewer installer only on intranet sites. 
Currently, the
Adobe SVG Viewer End User License Agreement does not allow you to post 
the ASV
installer on public Internet sites. For more information, please see the 
Adobe SVG Viewer
Distribution Agreement http://www.adobe.com/svg/distribute.html.

Will Adobe provide future security patch releases of ASV?

No, Adobe will not provide any more security patch releases of Adobe SVG 
Viewer.

Will Adobe support future SVG specifications in its authoring products?

Adobe Illustrator was one of the first commercial illustration tools to 
support SVG Full
and SVG Tiny. While Adobe does not publicly disclose future product 
directions, we will
continue to evaluate the authoring needs for vector formats like SVG 
Full, SVG Basic,
SVG Tiny, and any successors.

Will ASV install and run on Microsoft Windows Vista?

Adobe SVG Viewer is not certified to install on Vista. In addition, 
users who install ASV
on an older version of Windows and then upgrade to Vista should be aware 
that some
features of ASV will not function correctly on Vista. Features of ASV 
that are currently
known to not work on Vista include (but are not limited to) the View 
Source command,
and support for audio.

Can I create my own installer for ASV?

You may not create your own installer for Adobe SVG Viewer. The Adobe 
SVG Viewer
End User License Agreement does not permit the user to repackage the 
product
components. Among other reasons, this is because custom-made installers 
could include
bugs that cause problems for Adobe’s customers, and those customers 
would then turn to
Adobe for help. In addition, incorrectly installed ASV components could 

Re: [svg-developers] Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Ronan-

Ronan Oger wrote:
 Yeah right, and compete with their own product? Doug, you are optimistic to a 
 fault. 

Perhaps.  But if you don't ask for something, you're unlikely to get it. 
  This announcement from Adobe had a rather tentative tone in parts, 
suggesting to me that they might be feeling out community reaction; if 
that reaction is strongly negative enough, they might not wish to stir 
up such ill will.

Jon Ferraiolo, a veteran of Adobe and a driving force behind SVG, goes 
even further than I in his suggestions to Adobe.


 They canned ASV to make room for their commercial solution and have no 
 commercial incentive to keep it there as a thorn in their side for people to 
 build applicatons around.

Clearly.  But they do have a moral responsibility to the community, 
regardless of whether they honor that responsibility.


 On top of that, everyone who has had to rebuild their apps to be ecmascript 
 compliant after using ASV has loudly cursed their javascript 
 implementation... They can only lose on reputation from having an old, 
 unsupported product lying around gathering user ire.

This doesn't sound like a very convincing argument to me.  People are 
more aware about standardized scripting now, thanks in no small part to 
this list.  ASV may be permissive in its scripting engine, but it also 
works (mostly) with the same code that works in Opera and FF.  Anyone 
who has been foolhardy enough to code to ASVG must surely now have 
learned their lesson.


 This is the cost of vendor-supplied free addons. Nothing given by a 
 company is free.

Opera, Mozilla, and Microsoft are companies which give away their 
browser for free.  I'm sure that all of them have older unsupported 
version of their browser, but I doubt that they no longer permit their 
distribution.  I think this is highly unorthodox of Adobe.

I think that other SVG viewers will now rise to the challenge, and we 
may be better off without the perception of SVG as an Adobe technology, 
but I still think this is poor practice by Adobe.

Regards-
-Doug


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 
Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/WktRrD/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM
~- 

-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo Contest: personal preferences sought

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
 
 I'm really concerned about your claims to understand accessibility  
 and intentions to update the 2000 SVG guidelines.

I never claimed to understand every issue involving accessibility, nor 
do I think you or any one person does either.  This is why I will be 
working with Chaals and the WAI IG to try to reach the broadest possible 
set of accessibility needs.


  the logo will be distinctive, simple, and elegant.
 the image http://www.w3.org/Graphics/ 
   --
 
   is unlikely to be described in these terms

But my description does fit an ideal format for an iconic logo, which is 
meant to do 2 things:
1) serve as an indicator of necessary browser functionality;
2) help establish a brand identity for SVG.

I'm sorry that this logo contest does not serve your agenda.  May I 
suggest that you consider running a contest of your own, which 
emphasizes the qualities in SVG art that you are looking for?


  since this is intended for print and rasterization as well as SVG- 
 format viewing, the logo will not have sound
 
 providing sound has nothing to do with whether the logo will be  
 printed, obviously there is no expectation that the printed logo will  
 sound. afaik providing sound for SVG1.2 has no known downside for  
 other technologies.

Most people would find an audio component annoying, and would not use it 
on their site.  If you want to submit a suitable sound clip, however, I 
will consider adding it to logo site as an optional addition.


  nor will there be interactivity nor focus
 
 Why not? if the logo is used as a link it should provide visual  
 feedback when in focus, or at least the place it is embedded in  
 should. This was the purpose of hover and border in html.

It's extremely annoying that you clipped off the part of my reply that 
deals directly with your concern, then accused me of not addressing it:
(or rather, the default initial focus will be on the root).  I invite 
you to read the SVGT1.2 spec and disabuse yourself of the notion that 
there is no indicator of focus. [1]


  The best way to achieve accessibility for a logo such as this is  
 to have a text fallback,
 sorry this is just plain wrong, text is but one approach, which  
 happens to suit a vocal and able minority.

This is too vague to supply any criteria for accessibility, beyond your 
vocal complaints.


 text is also an accessibility bonus. not as a fallback, but as a  
 visible label. Very few people have access to a screen reader, let  
 alone one that works with any sort of SVG, they tend to be very  
 expensive.

There will be a visible text component as well, which you would know if 
you read the svglogo.com Web site.  However, because Firefox does not 
yet implement SVG Fonts, some of the letters may just be graphics... 
and that is what the text fallback is for.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/interact.html#specifyingfocushighlight

Regards-
-Doug


-
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my 
membership
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/