[Tagging] Where to update ID editor "templates" ?

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

searched the wiki for half an hour but couldn't find
how these templates work or how I could edit them :
https://i.postimg.cc/L4LTvySh/harley1.png

The brand according to wikipedia and wikidata is correct,
but the OSM brand= -tag got a typo (missing hyphen)
https://i.postimg.cc/zGXFz8gR/harley2.png

Thanks in advance,
cheers,
Thilo

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff:[OpenStreetMap] Re: brand=Harley-Davidson
Datum:  Fri, 04 Jan 2019 18:48:38 +
Von:maro21 
An: th...@gmx.de





OpenStreetMap   *OpenStreetMap*


Hallo ti-lo,

*maro21*  hat dir eine
Nachricht über OpenStreetMap mit dem Betreff /Re: brand=Harley-Davidson/
gesendet:

maro21   

On 2019-01-04 17:02:38 UTC ti-lo wrote:

That's strange, couldn't find anything related and doesn't happen
with mine. https://i.postimg.cc/t4CLmPSL/ID-Harley.png
https://i.postimg.cc/tg8wTcqj/ID-Harley-2.png Could you send me a
screenshot how it looks like ?

It happens when you're choosing a type of object:
https://i.postimg.cc/L4LTvySh/harley1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/zGXFz8gR/harley2.png Or when you have
shop=motorcycle and typing "Harley..." in the field "name" (not brand).

So try to report it or correct it if you know where, becasue some of
these misspellings could be from this. Do you know where to correct
these partially filled POIs?



Du kannst auch die Nachricht unter
https://www.openstreetmap.org/messages/752515
lesen und unter https://www.openstreetmap.org/messages/752515/reply
antworten

OpenStreetMap 

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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

8X-

Sérgio V. svolk2 at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 4 15:59:48 UTC 2019

As talking on tools, standards and principles, I think what is vital is
to follow "OSM principles":

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice

*Don't remove tags that you don't understand*

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/How_We_Map

*Do not engage in large-scale "cleanups" without securing the agreement
of the relevant community or talking to the people whose work you aim to
"clean".*
8X-

Possibly you didn't notice I (first) tried to do so in May 2018 ?

8X-
Fri Jan 4 14:35:57 UTC 2019
...but last time this wasn't very successful :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036095.html

8X-

And did they ?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036119.html

Nothing happened, last mail :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036275.html

So please be try to be constructive,
look forward and tell us which scheme you prefer and why

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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

8X-
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org
Fri Jan 4 12:29:34 UTC 2019

Hi,

I agree there seems to be a problem here that needs careful discussion &
consideration, but:

On 03.01.19 16:47, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
> So which ACTION should we take now ?
> At least those who introduced it should be in charge.

The ACTION should definitely not be you mass-editing things back to how
you think they should be tagged. This can be discussed here and we can
make a change AFTER that, not while.

Bye
Frederik
8X-

I agree, but last time this wasn't very successful :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036095.html

8X-

Sérgio V. svolk2 at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 4 11:54:17 UTC 2019

Even if the tag keys were not propper, you've just removed many specific
information about services that were in the values, such as batteries;
brakes; electrical; inspection; muffler; oil_change.
Without preserving them in any other usefull, or more propper tag if needed.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/66006238
Simply removing true info is not a good deal.
Where and how would someone find those specific infos about car services
again?
Are you considering the validity of those previously tagged specific
infos, and the efforts of who did it to put valuable info in to OSM, in
your large-scale re-tagging?

Sérgio

8X-

Yeah, this should be discussed beforehand,
whether we then also tag all items in a supermarket,
or instead use more generic tags like food/non-food.

I'd suggest :

batteries; brakes:
car:parts=yes         OR         car:parts=batteries;brakes (if only)

electrical :
unclear what is meant, electrical repair or electric cars ?
either :
car:repair=yes        OR         car:repair=electrical (if only)
OR
car:type=electric

inspection
car:repair=inspection (if only, such as pitstop and similar)

muffler; oil_change
car:repair=muffler;oil_change (if only)

I think it's vital to follow those principles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardization#Effect_on_consumers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

Cheers,
Thilo

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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Forgot to mention :
" it follows what `service:bicycle:*` does."
is not true.

And if you introduce a new system,
you should also explain the namespace structure.
And not just create a hard to find "notice"
which isn't linked to from the affected existing tags
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:vehicle

8X---

Bryan Housel bryan at 7thposition.com
Sun May 6 12:27:15 UTC 2018

    Previous message: [Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix
    Next message: [Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix
    Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

Hey all, this is something I added to iD because we can’t support
reusing the `service=*` tag to also store values for vehicle services. 
The tag is already overwhelmingly used to hold values for
`highway=service` and `railway=service`.

So we added `service:vehicle` for users to tag these, and it follows
what `service:bicycle:*` does.

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036107.html

8X---


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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

8X--
Bryan Housel bhousel at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 04:39:03 UTC 2019We discussed it here on this list last year.
You started the thread even, so you can’t pretend like you "just
realized” it.

I even asked people to update the wiki.
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036095.html

 
Anyway, be nice & happy new year.
8X--

Thanks for mentioning that, I really forgot about it.
At the time I obviously didn't realize the dimension of this
(implementing it in ID, and in which opulence).
Meanwhile it's destroying established tagging schemes and it's still not
documented
nor did someone take care to avoid further entries in the format which
triggered this decision (shop=car service=*).
And I'm afraid if I do there will be a lot of whiners crying "where has
this been discussed" ?

There was an appropriate comment at the time,
but it seems it's been ignored:

8X--
Martin Koppenhoefer
    dieterdreist at gmail.com
  
    Sun May  6 20:07:50 UTC 2018

introducing undocumented and formerly unused tags via preset without any
discussion or proposal process
is something I didn’t expect from the main osmf endorsed editor.
Are there more tags that have been introduced this way,
and if yes, have they been documented in the meantime?
8X--

So which ACTION should we take now ?
At least those who introduced it should be in charge.


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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

just realized there's a "great" new feature in ID editor,
lots of senseless service tags in this format :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=service%3Avehicle%3A

Seems to be over a year ago that someone decided to avoid conflicts
between the "street" and the "car" services :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:vehicle

They just forgot to check whether it had some influences on existing
tagging schemes
and didn't even adjust the "shop=car" wiki page (whose tagging scheme
apparently lead to this decision).

This leads to entries like this one :
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44809

Thoughts ?
Ideas how to fix that ?
At least this opulent tagging scheme should be deactivated ASAP in ID.

Cheers,
Thilo


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Re: [Tagging] maxspeed:type vs source:maxspeed // StreetComplete

[Thilo Haug OSM]

You just forgot to mention the table would solve this :-)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits#The_table

And there should be a link to it on these pages :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed

Perhaps there should also be a new value maxspeed=default,
to express the road's speed limit refers to this table
(where "default" links to the wiki page) ?

Am 22.09.18 um 14:32 schrieb Colin Smale:
>
> Well said, I agree wholeheartedly. A local, anecdotal view is in
> itself not enough to produce a data model that works for everyone.
>
>  
>
>
> On 2018-09-22 14:22, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
>> Tagging an implicit speed limit explicitly for example in town with
>> maxspeed=50 is straightforward enough for Germany. It seems natural that
>> no specialist knowledge is required for that kind of thing. For a German.
>>
>> But let's look at some other countries for the default urban speed limit.
>>
>> Spain (ES):
>> maxspeed=50
>> maxspeed:hazmat=40
>>
>> Chile (CL):
>> maxspeed=60
>> maxspeed:bus=50
>> maxspeed:hgv=50
>>
>> Hungary (HR):
>> maxspeed=50
>> maxspeed:tricycle=40
>>
>> Kerala in India (IN-KL):
>> maxspeed=50
>> maxspeed:conditional=40 @ (weight > 7.5)
>> maxspeed:trailer=40
>> maxspeed:bus_articulated=40
>> maxspeed:hgv_articulated=40
>> maxspeed:bus:conditional=40 @ (weight > 7.5)
>> maxspeed:hgv:conditional=40 @ (weight > 7.5)
>> maxspeed:tricycle=30
>>
>> Punjab in India (IN-PB):
>> maxspeed=50
>> maxspeed:trailer=35
>> maxspeed:bus_articulated=30
>> maxspeed:hgv_articulated=30
>> maxspeed:hgv=45
>> maxspeed:hgv:conditional=40 @ (weight > 6)
>> maxspeed:conditional=40 @ (weight > 6)
>> maxspeed:trailer:conditional=30 @ (weight > 6)
>> maxspeed:motorcycle=35
>> maxspeed:goods=45
>> maxspeed:goods:conditional=40 @ (weight > 6)
>>
>> Malta (MT):
>> maxspeed=50
>> maxspeed:bus=40
>> maxspeed:hgv=30
>> maxspeed:goods=40
>> maxspeed:goods:conditional=30 @ (weight > 3)
>>
>> Poland (PL):
>> maxspeed=50
>> maxspeed:conditional=60 @ (23:00-05:00)
>>
>> Zambia (ZM):
>> maxspeed=50
>> maxspeed:conditional=40 @ (weight > 2.275)
>> maxspeed:trailer=40
>> maxspeed:hgv=40
>>
>> Because the maxspeed tag applies to all vehicles except overridden for a
>> specific vehicle type or a conditional, specifying only maxspeed=50 in
>> any of the above cases has to be considered wrong or at least
>> incomplete. In other words, the tags you see above would need to be
>> added in the case the speed limit is given explicitly. It is not so
>> straightforward then anymore.
>>
>> So, maybe not for Germany, but as you see, in other places, this *is*
>> specialist knowledge. No regular car driver in Punjab will be able to
>> enumerate all these maxspeed rules. And, taking a less extreme example,
>> I think the Polish OSM contributors wouldn't want to add this
>> maxspeed:conditional=60 @ (23:00-05:00) to every single unsigned street
>> in urban areas.
>>
>> Also, note this is only the urban speed limit, trust me, the default
>> speed limit "for all other roads" (=rural) can be much more complex.
>>
>> Actually, don't trust me, see for yourself in the document I link all
>> the time in the hope people would read it:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits
>>
>> We can not get to any results or any progress on the matter of default
>> speed limits (or for any topic, for that matter) if everyone just keeps
>> arguing out of his best knowledge about his home region or country only.
>>
>> "It works for me" is simply not good enough for a global project.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Tobias
>>
>> On 22/09/2018 01:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
 On 19. Sep 2018, at 21:16, Tobias Zwick >>> > wrote:

 This is a good argument against tagging an explicit maxspeed=X when
 there is actually no speed limit sign around (X is what the OSM mapper
 by his knowledge about the law thinks should be the default limit
 here).
>>>
>>>
>>> everything that you map will be according to your understanding of
>>> it, I cannot see a good argument for not tagging implicit limits,
>>> even more as there is judgement needed based on the situation
>>> (something humans can do much better than computers). Every holder
>>> of a driving license should have the requisites to recognize the
>>> speed limit on a given piece of road in their local area, so it
>>> doesn't require specialist knowledge.
>>>
>>> We already have a reliable way to distinguish implicit from explicit
>>> limits (we even have several of them), if you want to treat them
>>> differently in your app, you can do it.
>>>
>>> There actually is a speed limit on most roads, including those
>>> without explicit signage. Omitting it will leave us in the situation
>>> that it really becomes unclear whether there is no sign or nobody
>>> has bothered to enter it.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin
>>> 

Re: [Tagging] Area of Firestations / Area of Ambulancestations

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

I think this should be discussed here (centrally) :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:WikiProject_Emergency_Cleanup#amenity.3D.2A_vs._emergency.3D.2A

Generally I don't understand why the parameters can't be "mixed"
(a police station is a police station, whether for emergency or not,
same for ambulance).
Then you could add the offered "services" ("below" the "main" tag).

So the discussion shouldn't be in which case to use amenity or emergency
(how to differentiate them),
but how to establish a namespace which allows to express all of the
possible "mixtures".
In any language the meaning of a sentence is based on the context in
which words are used,
so why not a structured mixture of possible expressions instead of too
generic ones ?

I think we should broaden the usage of namespaces
and define the way how they should be used (in general),
also expand the examples of already used namespaces :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace#Example_namespace_uses

This might IMHO avoid a lot of discussions about "generic" tags
as it would provide a kind of "grammar" to express details.

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 22.09.18 um 10:11 schrieb dktue:
>
>
> Am 22.09.2018 um 00:29 schrieb Warin:
>> On 21/09/18 23:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
 On 21. Sep 2018, at 11:28, dktue  wrote:

 but: it's not amenity=ambulance_station we're using at the moment.
 We're using emergency=ambulance_station -- so: How do we solve this?
>>>
>>> I’m not sure what an ambulance station is, but not all of the
>>> features I have in mind (a place where ambulances and their staff
>>> are parked and waiting for orders, usually with a coordinating
>>> office and radio unit) are emergency related. Some organizations
>>> only provide ambulance transports for people with special requirements.
>>>
>>
>> Here 'patent transport' is provided by the same organisation that
>> provides ambulances.
>>
>> They are co-located and have very similar vehicles, different colours
>> and lettering. The staff that man them have less training.
>>
>>
>> If they were completely separate then I'd use different tags. But
>> what tags to use?
>> Not emergency as they are scheduled and not urgent. Amenity?
>> amenity=patient_transport?
>>
> Same here -- some organisation provide emergency medical services
> _and_ patient transport, some do only emergency medical services and
> some do only patient transport. I think there really is a need to
> differentiate that.
>
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[Tagging] namespace for shop subtags - genaral format

[Thilo Haug]

Forwarding this with a new subject
as otherwise we discuss again "small" things instead of the whole principle
(shouldn't just be defined for horse:rental, but one namespace for all
offered services/goods)

Example :
*:sales=*
*:parts=*
*:rental=*

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff:Re: [Tagging] horse rental
Datum:  Mon, 3 Sep 2018 16:18:47 +0200
Von:Thilo Haug OSM 
Antwort an: th...@gmx.de
Organisation:   OSM
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org



Such as in the bicycle shop example ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys

This one has been discussed :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/service:bicycle

And it's totally different to the car version :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar#Tags_used_in_combination

That's why I think the (namespace) principle / "grammar" should be discussed
instead of inventing the wheel from scratch for every shop
(and having endless discussions about differences between slightly
different shops
instead of letting people express the details with an easy "grammar" /
"subkeys").

Am 03.09.2018 um 15:49 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> 2018-09-03 15:18 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM  <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> The principle should be described in general (not only for rental and
> not only for one shop),
> as there's currently a mess with different formats (compare car /
> bicycle / motorcycle shops).
>
>
>
>
> speaking about "mess"; it is the result of people creating new
> webpages for unexisting features without discussion or notice, so that
> the result is often similar to what you created on the skateboarding
> page: board:type for skateboards where all existing values are
> actually typos for board_type of information boards.
>
> Discussing with other mappers prior to writing new stuff into the
> wiki, using the established procedures (proposal process), searching
> the wiki and taginfo before inventing tags, all this can help to avoid
> the mess.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Such as in the bicycle shop example ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys

This one has been discussed :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/service:bicycle

And it's totally different to the car version :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar#Tags_used_in_combination

That's why I think the (namespace) principle / "grammar" should be discussed
instead of inventing the wheel from scratch for every shop
(and having endless discussions about differences between slightly
different shops
instead of letting people express the details with an easy "grammar" /
"subkeys").

Am 03.09.2018 um 15:49 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> 2018-09-03 15:18 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM  <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> The principle should be described in general (not only for rental and
> not only for one shop),
> as there's currently a mess with different formats (compare car /
> bicycle / motorcycle shops).
>
>
>
>
> speaking about "mess"; it is the result of people creating new
> webpages for unexisting features without discussion or notice, so that
> the result is often similar to what you created on the skateboarding
> page: board:type for skateboards where all existing values are
> actually typos for board_type of information boards.
>
> Discussing with other mappers prior to writing new stuff into the
> wiki, using the established procedures (proposal process), searching
> the wiki and taginfo before inventing tags, all this can help to avoid
> the mess.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi,

"Doesn't need a semicolon, only the main activity gets amenity=*, see
examples"
is fine.

The principle should be described in general (not only for rental and
not only for one shop),
as there's currently a mess with different formats (compare car /
bicycle / motorcycle shops).

I think namespaces with : are more usual,
but technically it makes no difference.

And the question is whether the "main amenity" makes sense in this case.
Let's say I search a service which is usually already part of something
else (main key shop=* or similar)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcar_rental
--> then you'd need to search for several values, amenity=car_rental and
car_rental=*
shop=car
or
shop=rental
with
car:rental=yes
would IMHO be more stuctured.

I also don't understand what the prefix "service" in bicycle is good for
(to distinguish it from which other key "without service" ?)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 03.09.2018 um 12:19 schrieb Hufkratzer:
> On 2.9.2018 22:06 Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
>> {...]
>> The current namespace article doesn't mention underscores :
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace#Example_namespace_uses
>
> I think it doesn't have to, the underscore can just be a part of a key
> or a value like any letter [a-z] can.
>
>> The amenity=* version is IMHO the worst possibility (in case of several
>> "amenities")
>> as you could just work with semicolon separator,
>> which isn't recommended : [...]
>
> Doesn't need a semicolon, only the main activity gets amenity=*, see
> examples:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3880444689 :
> amenity=restaurant
> horse_rental=yes
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1563976033 :
> amenity=fuel
> car_rental=yes
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2356973972 :
> amenity=boat_rental
> bicycle_rental=yes
> dinghi_rental=yes
> motorboat_rental=yes
> pedalboat_rental=yes
>
> If you want to search for all car_rental's you have to search for
> amenity=car_rental (main activity) and for car_rental=yes (secondary
> activity). This is uncomfortable, but the  rendering
> depends on the main activity, therefore the distinction is necessary.
> Isn't it?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi,

I don't have a general preference about the format,
but I think it should be possible to express several things to rent
(buy/repair etc.)
and it should be easily be possible to filter for all these items
(regardless whether it's a shop/hotel/farm).

So the format should be flexible enough to allow this.
I think it's easier to read (for humans) when the "subject" is in front,
so all the related characteristics are "listed".

There are several existing namespaces using this format :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Commonly_used_subkeys
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility:for
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:generator:output
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane#Examples

An example for the underscore format :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seamarks/Seamark_Objects

The current namespace article doesn't mention underscores :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace#Example_namespace_uses

The amenity=* version is IMHO the worst possibility (in case of several
"amenities")
as you could just work with semicolon separator,
which isn't recommended :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator#When_NOT_to_use
I think this is an overcome way to express simple things from a time
when POIs weren't in focus
(which meanwhile changes with OsmAnd, maps.me, komoot
and other popular apps which allow to use the data not only for pure
navigation).

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 02.09.2018 um 15:37 schrieb Hufkratzer:
> It looks like you didn't understand me. I am sorry that my English is
> so bad. I am trying to express my question in a different way:
>
> We have some differnet ways to tag a bicycle rental:
> a) amenity=bicycle_rental (30k uses), bicycle_rental=yes (< 20 uses)
> b) rental=bicycle (< 300 uses) (rental:bicycle=yes not used)
> c) bicycle:rental=yes (< 40 uses) (links to shop=rental)
>
> ... and a boat rental;
> a) amenity=boat_rental (2k uses), boat_rental=yes (< 10 uses)
> b) rental=boat (< 50 uses) (rental:boat=yes not used)
> c) boat:rental=yes (< 20 uses) (links to shop=rental)
>
> Now we are looking for the best way to tag a place where horses are
> for rent.
>
> The corresponding current numbers for horse rentals are:
> a) amenity=horse_rental : 5 uses, horse_rental=yes : 1 use
> b) rental=horse : 5 uses (rental:horse=yes not used)
> c) horse:rental=yes : 1 use (links to shop=rental)
>
> I wrote that I think the best way would be
> a) amenity=horse_rental or horse_rental=yes (if secondary activity)
> and wrote I don't like
> c) horse:rental=yes
> for the following reasons:
> - horses are usually not sold nor rented in shops
> - horses are no vehicles and no equipment and shop=rental is for these
> - amenity=horse_rental is like how car, bicycle. and boat rentals are
> usually tagged
>
> Why doyou nevertheless prefer to tag a horse rental with b)
> rental=horse rather than with a) amenoty=horse_rental or with
> horse_rental=yes? Why should we propose to tag them in a differnt way
> than bicycle or boat rentals? I think this would be unnecessarily
> confusing. Thanks.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

And what if a touristic item (farm, hotel, shop...)
offers several things to rent ?
Let's say horses, bicycles, jetski ?

Am 01.09.2018 um 16:25 schrieb Hufkratzer:
> On 1.9.2018 02:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 09:03, Hufkratzer > > wrote:
>>
>> I think a better alternative would be to use
>> amenity=horse_rental, this
>> is currently used 5 times, this would be analogous to
>> amenity=car_rental, amenity=bicycle_rental and amenity=boat_rental. 
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if horse rental would really be an appropriate term?
>>
>> If you rent a car, bike or boat, then you decide where to go, but if
>> you're "renting" a horse, you're paying to join an organised trail
>> ride of some form, you're not renting a horse to ride off into the
>> sunset & return it tomorrow!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>  
> One can rent a horse for trail riding, guided or unguided, or for
> riding inside of an enclosed area, with or without a teacher. One can
> do this for just an hour or for several days and also with 
> horse.drawn caravans, see these example webpages:
> -  http://www.sombrerohorses.com
>  - http://www.irishhorsedrawncaravans.com/Horses.htm
>
> What else than "horse rental" is there to call it?
>
>
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[Tagging] transport=* -key

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

what is the meaning of the transport=* -key ? 

I couldn't figure it out because it's often on buildings (possibly
"reachability" ?)
There's a total of 4 013 usages, but no wiki description :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/transport


There are 833 entries of transport=subway,
this would fit into the "public transport" tagging ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Cleanup/Public_transport

Are there any other similar wiki entries ?

Cheers,
Thilo

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 105, Issue 26

[Thilo Haug OSM]

I think what Mark wanted to express
is more about some general guidelines which could be established.

The  tagging systems are very inconsistent, just have a look at the
different "service" syntax (namespaces)
of a car vs. bicycle vs. motorcycle shop (and none for others).
There could be a system of different levels of discussions, for example.
I'm personally not keen on reading every single mail of every topic,
but there's no possibility to choose some topics.

To stay with the "shop" example :
There should be a consensus first what all shops have in common,
THEN the single shops may be discussed, not bottom-up.
Same for the namespace syntax.

It would be good to have some simple voting system
without having to edit the page code.
So when people are able to choose their topics
and an easy way to vote, more will participate
and the "consensus" of currently some dozens
which are willing to withstand the current mess
would be on a broader base (really democratic).

So let's discuss the possible structural enhancements
instead of presuming political opinions
(he didn't really mention "strong leadership, did he ?)

Ideas ?

Am 09.06.2018 um 02:22 schrieb EthnicFood IsGreat:
>     Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 08:29:25 +0200
>> From: Frederik Ramm 
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] The endless debate about "landcover" as a
>> top-level    tag
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> it is a gut reaction by people when forced with difficult issues to call
>> for strong leadership to solve them once and for all. OSM is no
>> exception.
>>
>> On 08.06.2018 01:29, EthnicFood IsGreat wrote:
>>> I wouldn't mind if all the existing tags were replaced tomorrow with a
>>> brand new set of "intelligently-designed" keys.
>> Designed by... a visionary leader? A board of experts? A random draw?
>> And if something turns out to be designed wrongly, how will it be
>> challenged?
>
> Of course any system would have to have a means of making revisions,
> as better ways of tagging things become apparent over time.  There
> could still be innovation.
>
>>
>>> And I wouldn't mind if
>>> these keys were enforced from now on.
>> Not having an enforced set of keys and values was definitely a big part
>> of OSM's success (there *were* competing projects which got stuck trying
>> to define the one true set of keys and values that would work for
>> everything).
>>
>> Some people say that while this may be true, the time has now come to
>> get rid of the old ways that got us where we are, and change tack to
>> something more conservative. This is a valid argument but I am not
>> convinced; a lot of innovation is still going on with tags, and strict
>> enforcement would run the risk of killing that.
>>
>>> Someone some time ago on one
>>> of the OSM mailing lists summed up the current situation by stating,
>>> "It
>>> seems OSM is incapable of moving forward."
>> OpenStreetMap is becoming a larger group of more diverse people with
>> more diverse interests, and since we don't - and don't aim to - have a
>> dictator at the top, things need to be done by consensus. These people
>> who take to the internet complaining about how OSM is incapable of
>> moving forward usually are people who are unwilling, or unable, to
>> convince the "great unwashed" their idea of "forward" is a good thing.
>> So they lament the lack of leadership and complain about "gatekeeping",
>> but it's really just them being unable to do the work required to
>> establish consensus in a large project.
>>
>> Because that takes much more than a couple of blog posts (cf. the
>> license change).
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>
>
> I have been editing in OSM for almost four years, and I've been a
> member of this mailing list almost since then.  I read every single
> post.  During that time I have never seen what I would consider a
> consensus reached on anything.  I'm not sure it's even possible.
> Whenever someone proposes a way to tag something, you can be
> guaranteed that people will bring up every possible angle and nuance
> concerning the meaning of the tag, and nobody wants to compromise.
> Consequently there is never a consensus.  Eventually people get tired
> of the debate, when they see it's a no-win situation, and the debate
> just dies away, until somebody brings it up again next year. Case in
> point:  the current issue of landuse versus landcover. There was no
> consensus the last time this was brought up and there is none now.
>
> I've seen several tags debated more than once in four years.  I can
> only assume that each time, a different group of people get drawn in
> to the discussion, unaware that the issue has been debated before,
> with no resolution.  This cycle is doomed to repeat itself over and
> over, as long as OSM proceeds the way it is.  A waste of time and effort!
>
> I don't see how OSM can work well when mappers are free to tag however
> they want.  Different people have diametrically opposed ideas about
> how things should 

Re: [Tagging] Removing helpful information in wiki pages

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi,

IMHO the picture helps understand the process of starting and landing,
as not everyone heard about the recent development.
I thought this would be helpful to get an overview at a glance.
(talking about the spacex schematic picture, not the " long exposure" one,
which should only show the "real world"- version of the above).

What I dont't understand is how these pictures may be disturbing or
irritating ?

Illustrations in general are usual to help understand a topic,
especially if one isn't already a specialist in it.
Those were just a bit bigger, but this could be solved by using
"thumbnails",
means smaller versions you have to click on to see the full size.

An alternative would be to link to an wikipedia article which explains it,
but if I can get this general understanding with just some pictures,
I think this is more effective ("a picture is worth a thousand words").

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 12.05.2018 um 13:15 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> Why would you think it is not, and what is the content you believe is
> contained that could help understanding the tags in question?


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Re: [Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

instead of discussing everything from scratch,
let's create a general guideline for shop suffixes.
There has already been a former short dicussion
with some nice examples, but no productive outcome :

General namespace (syntax) for shops :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-September/033385.html

Proposal :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop_subtags

Please write your input to the proposal's discussion page,
otherwise everyone has to search all the old emails in the tagging
mailing list's archive.

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 06.05.2018 um 22:07 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 6. May 2018, at 14:27, Bryan Housel  wrote:
>>
>> Hey all, this is something I added to iD because we can’t support reusing 
>> the `service=*` tag to also store values for vehicle services.  
>
> introducing undocumented and formerly unused tags via preset without any 
> discussion or proposal process is something I didn’t expect from the main 
> osmf endorsed editor. Are there more tags that have been introduced this way, 
> and if yes, have they been documented in the meantime?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix

[Thilo Haug OSM]

How about leaving away both,
the prefix service:vehicle is IMHO needless

car:repair
car:parts
car:rental

etc., same for bicycle,
would express the same ?

Am 06.05.2018 um 14:27 schrieb Bryan Housel:
> Hey all, this is something I added to iD because we can’t support
> reusing the `service=*` tag to also store values for vehicle services.
>  The tag is already overwhelmingly used to hold values for
> `highway=service` and `railway=service`.
>
> So we added `service:vehicle` for users to tag these, and it follows
> what `service:bicycle:*` does.
>
> For more details see:
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/5008
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4497
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3535
>
> Please update the wiki, thanks!
> Bryan
>
>
>
>> On May 6, 2018, at 12:35 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> So ... no documentation. Nor discussion visible on the wiki.
>>
>> But follows the practice of service:bicycle:repair=yes which is
>> poorly documented on
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:bicycle:repair
>>
>>
>>
>> On 06/05/18 13:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>> As part of shop=car_repair
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar_repair
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>>
>>> On 6 May 2018 at 09:51, Thilo Haug OSM <th...@gmx.de
>>> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> what is the service:vehicle: prefix good for,
>>> and where is it documented ? (1 223 occurrences)
>>>
>>> 
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service%3Avehicle%3Acar_repair#overview
>>> 
>>> <https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service%3Avehicle%3Acar_repair#overview>
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>> Thilo
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging LPG only station

[Thilo Haug OSM]

fuel:diesel=no
fuel:octane_91=no
fuel:octane_95=no
fuel:octane_98=no
fuel:e10=no

Am 06.05.2018 um 18:52 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> How to tag fuel station with only LPG fuel?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfuel and
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fuel:lpg
> failed to help with that.
>
> amenity=fuel
> fuel:lpg=yes
>
> is a good start but how one may explicitly add that
> no other fuel type is sold there?
>
> I encountered https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1282285 and now
> I have no idea how to improve tagging there (and I prefer to know that
> before I
> check that anonymous reporter was right)
>
>
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[Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

what is the service:vehicle: prefix good for,
and where is it documented ? (1 223 occurrences)

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service%3Avehicle%3Acar_repair#overview

Cheers.
Thilo



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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Thilo Haug OSM]

perhaps

musical_instrument:usage=

?

Am 30.04.2018 um 11:22 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> Besides the arguments from Martin,
>
> how do you differentiate the "rental" in a bar, where you can only
> play on the instrument, and not take it away from the room/building
> from a real rental company that deliver instruments to play somewhere
> else ?
>
>> musical_instrument:sales=*
>> musical_instrument:rental=*
>> musical_instrument:repair=*
>> musical_instrument:parts=*
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmusical_instrument
>>
>> I case of the bars,
>> it could be
>> amenity=bar
>> musical_instrument:rental=piano
>> fee:piao=no @ customers
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

i think that subtags are necessary for all types of shops
but may be the same for every (non-food) type of shop,
as all of them usually offer the same (besides sales),
so the following may apply :

musical_instrument:sales=*
musical_instrument:rental=*
musical_instrument:repair=*
musical_instrument:parts=*
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmusical_instrument

I case of the bars,
it could be
amenity=bar
musical_instrument:rental=piano
fee:piao=no @ customers
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee

So the keys for the shop
could also be used for other "main" tags such as amenities.
Any standardisation would IMHO ease the tagging of more complex cases.

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 29.04.2018 um 10:36 schrieb José G Moya Y.:
> I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I
> find problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a
> bar. Imagine a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:
>
> amenity=bar
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=private
>
> It does not make clear if either access to bar or access to piano is
> private. 
>
> Also, since bars are amenities, a duplicate "amenity" tag arises. You
> have to either put two points or tag the bar as an area.
>
> Yours,
>
> José
>
>
> El dom., 29 de abril de 2018 7:51,  > escribió:
>
> The musical_instrument *key* is generally used to name the
> specific type of musical instrument:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/musical_instrument
>
> You are correct that it's mostly used in combination with
> shop=musical_instrument (a place selling them) or
> craft=musical_instrument (a place making them).
>
> But there are also a (very) few cases tagged as
> amenity=musical_instrument (a place where a musical instrument is
> available for use) and playground=musical_instrument (similar, but
> generally a more robust "toy" instrument aimed at a younger
> audience). Neither one of which is currently specifically
> documented on the wiki, but that shouldn't stop you from using them.
>
> So a piano in a bar that is available for people to play on should
> probably be tagged:
>
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=permissive (or access=customer in some cases)
>
> Either way, the piano is privately owned and the owner is
> currently making it available to other people, but may revoke that
> permission at will in the future.
>
> Cheers,
> Thorsten
>
> P.S. is there a preference on this mailing list for top or bottom
> posting?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: e1k >
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2018 15:12
> > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > Subject: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available
> > musical instruments
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > (first post, plz be gentle!)
> > i'd love to see if there can be consensus on the use of the
> > 'musical_instrument' tag for publicly available musical instruments.
> > a growing number of bars, train stations and or other public places
> > have musical instruments around where i live (Amsterdam area), and
> > i've started noticing and collecting these places, and would love
> > to tag them in openstreetmap.
> > use case: as a musician that travels around a bit, i'd love to know
> > where i can find a piano or guitar to play on.
> > i see the musical_instrument tag is mostly (only?) used for place
> > that create and/or sell musical instruments, but i'm wondering what
> > the appropriate form of tag would be for a publicly available
> > musical instrument.
> > (if this has been discussed before, plz point me at it, i coudln't
> > find it)
> >
> > best regards,
> > emile
> >
> >
> > ​---
> >
> > All revolutions are impossible until they happen. Then they become
> > inevitable -- Albie Sachs​
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Thilo Haug OSM]

An example, good luck :
56 TSKM, 39 Languages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Togo
41 TSKM, 4 languages :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland

(Germany : 357 TSKM)

Am 18.04.2018 um 21:49 schrieb Vao Matua:
> I would suggest that OSM is probably not the best place for this. 
> There are many countries that have many or even hundreds of
> languages.  The lines between the places where languages are commonly
> spoken can be quite fuzzy and often do not follow any other features.
> A year ago I was living in a place where people living there spoke 3
> different languages in addition to the "official" language.
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan
> > wrote:
>
> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions? 
> I would like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an
> area. This will greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data
> consumers to calculate which language name tags to use for which
> locale. This will also give OSM community a much greater control
> over such maps.
>
> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
> type=language
> primary=xx   (required)
> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>
> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada
> for English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in
> Canada). In some cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>
> What do you think?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag:shop=shotball

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi,

there's already
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dweapons

How about a subtag
weapon:type=*

The corresponding sport is here :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 08.03.2018 um 13:00 schrieb Александр Львов:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:shop%3Dshotball 
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Thilo Haug OSM]

I agree with those statements :

What they sell (e.g. clothes, groceries, only in bulk packaging) or if
access is restricted (specific times, only certain group of people) are
separate concerns
*and should be tagged separately*.

Am 06.03.2018 um 18:55 schrieb Paul Allen:
We already make a distinction between shops (selling goods) and offices
(selling services, though other types of office exist).  I'd go with
wholesaler=*.  *And maybe expand* access to access=trade (wholesaler
deals only with registered traders) and access=public (anyone can shop
there).  Something along those lines.

Of course, there will always be grey areas.

-- 
Paul

 
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[Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

instead of debating every single shop (details),
I'm in favor of using a name scheme which applies to all (kind "grammar"
for it).

In the context of the printer_ink shop discussion I stumbled on the
"service" tags of
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop

IMHO service:computer=yes/no or service:phone=yes/no
doesn't make sense at all, as nobody knows WHICH "service" is meant.
It would be better to take the "main" tag (of shop=*) as the leading item,
such as
computer:sales=yes/no
computer:parts=yes/no
computer:repair=yes/no
computer:rental=yes/no
computer:[whateverrismeantby"service"]=yes/no

...and to use this scheme for all shop services.

Cheers,
Thilo



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Re: [Tagging] Shops that sell printer ink cartridges

[Thilo Haug OSM]

I didn't get the point of this comment,
do you got an example ?

Am 24.02.2018 um 00:51 schrieb marc marc:
> Listing all possible values in shop=* means that each tool
> must provide a sorting by category if it wants to organize
> the data and make life harder for the majority of shop that
> have more than one product..
> a schema like shop=first_level + first_level=second_level etc.,
> avoiding the need for each application to do so.
Regarding
"I am against turning OSM into a shop inventory or an ontology of all
products on the planet. I agree with Frederik below and his
shop=printer_ink favourite." :

I didn't want to propose to list all products (or even variants of them)
of a shop=supermarket, shop=doityourself or shop=electronics,
just to give a possibility to mention another "main shop" is also
providing this "service" (or product) of a "specialised" one
(In OSM usually done by a namespace, example : social_facility).
I think the number of shops that are specialised in only one
product/service is much lower than that of shops providing several.
Example : shop=seafood (may be sold by a variety of other shops).

So IMHO the goal of this discussion is to find those attributes (or
services) which apply to several shops and are of general interest.

In the "seafood" example it's the question whether this needs to be
split up in types of seafood or not, but time will show if people feel
the need.
But this might be solved by simply offering seafood:type=* (not to make
a subtag for every type).
In non-food cases, there will mainly be the offer of selling, renting,
repairing and (spare) parts,
so this could be used for a "general" scheme.

In the printer example, it is obvious that there might be more than ink
which could be interesting,
there's even the tag amenity=printer (doesn't make sense to me).




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Re: [Tagging] Shops that sell printer ink cartridges

[Thilo Haug]

IMHO there are no shops selling BUT printer ink, so a subtag might be more 
useful :


printer:ink=sales
printer:ink=refill
printer:repair=yes
printer:sales=yes

and so on...



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Am 23. Februar 2018 13:08:59 schrieb Fredrik :


I came across shops that sell printer ink on taginfo [1] and saw they
were split in three.

shop=ink (42)

shop=ink_cartridge (13)

shop=printer_ink (12)

I created this wikipage [2] for shop=printer_ink and was wondering what
the list thinks.

shop=printer_ink sounds the clearest in meaning of the three and the
other values should be converted to this.

--

FredrikLindseth

openstreetmap.org/user/FredrikLindseth


[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=ink#values

[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dprinter_ink


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Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi Volker,

the way I understand the current syntax,
underscore is more for spaces (in terms)
and colon for namespaces (to separate the "subcategory").

So I'd use vehicle:type=* rather than vehicle_type=*
(leaves room for vehicle:anythingelse=*)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 17.02.2018 um 14:44 schrieb Volker Schmidt:
> I would prefer a tag structure of the type
> highway=service _area (or highway=services ?)
> vehicle_type=bicycle; motorcycle; car; agricultural; hgv;
> motor_vehicle (with default vehicle_type=motor_vehicle?)
> attendant=yes|no
>
> I have come across a number of (manned) service places where different
> vehicles are attended to, including bicycles.
>
> On 17 February 2018 at 11:52, nwastra  > wrote:
>
> I also find the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
> specific enough to be a widely used tag if documented on the osm
> cycling pages.
> nev
>  
>> On 17 Feb 2018, at 8:40 PM, John Willis > > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Javbw
>>
>> On Feb 15, 2018, at 11:54 AM, Dave Swarthout
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> think the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
>>> specific enough.
>>
>> I will make a draft page for it and start using it for the very
>> rare places here. I assume the rest area in the OSM question
>> thread is a sun protection or picnic shelter with name=Cycle Rest
>> Area. 
>>
>> Javbw 
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Not mapping personal preferences and details

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

did I miss the
"consensus with the community, after long and detailed discussions"
here ?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-October/033760.html

There are two guys which appear to me like religios bigot on an Inquisition,
but maybe the definitions in the wiki are just unclear / too interpretable :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rtfm

Please let me know what you think of this definition
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#When_to_create_a_proposal
and whether it applies to the "motorcycle_friendly" tag.

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 05.10.2017 um 23:19 schrieb Warin:
> On 05-Oct-17 10:41 PM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
>>
>>
>> In my understanding, we would not map the personal preferences and
>> hobbies of individuals. 
>
> ? We all map our personal preference and hobbies!
> Walkers map public rights of way and bicycle riders map bicycle paths,
> bicycle parking, bicycle repair stands, drinking water sources and so on.
>
> Why should motorcycle riders not do the same?
> Or pet owners?
>
> The motivation of a business owner to provide specific services is for
> profit, if they have specific knowledge of a particular market, such
> as motorcycling, then they may use it to advantage.
> I don't see any harm in that - after all OSM is mapping crafts and
> shops where the people concerned have skills in those areas.
>
>
>
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[Tagging] lunch_specials or lunch:specials ?

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

I stumbled on a bakery which serves warm meals for lunch
which is quite unusual (whereas it's common for butchers in Germany)
http://www.schmidbeck.de/aktuelles.html

There are currently 5 occurrences of lunch_specials on taginfo :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=lunch_specials

I think it would be better to use the namespace of Key:lunch instead :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lunch

Now for the description of the tag :
To me, the "lunch special" is a warm meal
for a reduced price that might be offered by a
butcher
restaurant
cafe
pub
bar
biergarten
and others

Usually, there's just a reduced choice
compared to "a la carte" (1-3 meals),
but it's available immediately (similar to fast food).
Not necessarily for takeaway, but there are already tags to indicate if
this applies.

Any additional comments ?

Cheers,
Thilo


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Re: [Tagging] shop - clothing_repair

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Maybe a namespace ?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace

I think this statement isn't true :
" It's impossible to cover all types of shops."'
further, it's mentioned :
"If you discover new shop types, you may invent your own values"
I think this should be standardized,
similar namespaces may apply to most of the shops.


Am 16.12.2017 um 22:36 schrieb Philip Barnes:
> Maybe craft=tailor?
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dtailor
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On 16 December 2017 20:44:30 GMT+00:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Yet another type of shop?
>
> There are 'car_repair' shops but no clothing repair shops ...
>
> For example www.venusrepairs.com.au  
> provides specialised repairs for 
> leather and goretex clothing.
>
> So I have tagged them as shop=clothing_repair.
>
>
> Someone has shop:repair=yes .. does not work for me, could be a repair 
> of a wheelbarrow.
>
>
> 
>
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>
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>
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[Tagging] Vandalism ?

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Was there any consensus about this topic ?

8X---
Gîtes les terres noires. (525407874)
OSM data: remove 12 occurrences of 'proprietor:motorcyclist' after
discussion on the Tagging list
that OSM should not map personal preferences, and is not a vehicle registry
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525407874
8X---

I can't see how this tag may do any harm to OSM,
based on this description :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Syntactic_conventions_for_new_tags


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Re: [Tagging] building=maisonette(s)

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

here it's defined as :

"A set of rooms for living in, typically on two storeys of a larger
building and having a separate entrance."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/maisonette

HTH


Am 02.12.2017 um 23:21 schrieb Warin:
> On 03-Dec-17 09:09 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>> On 3 December 2017 at 04:58, marc marc > > wrote:
>>
>>
>> In french, a "maisonette" is a small detached house or a tiny
>> house or a
>> shed.
>> Did this word also exist in english
>>
>
> English has stolen many words from other languages. This may well be
> one of them.
> My dictionary says "maisonette"; 1) small house 2) semi-detached house
> 3) self contained flat over 2 floors
>>
>>  Have heard the term in Australia but not for many years.
>>
>> These days, it's apparently been replaced by "Granny Flat", which is
>> a similar concept of a self-contained flat attached to a house, but
>> with it's own entrance.
>>
>
> Granny flats can be attached (or semi-detached) or completely separate
> from the main residence.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] passage only on low tide

[Thilo Haug]

There's been a similar question regarding
ford <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ford> in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
A mapper insisted that intermittent wouldn't fit to highway.

Description in ford <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ford> :
intermittent <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent>=*
used to indicate that a waterway (river, stream, etc.) does not have a
permanent flow, so the ford may also be dry at times.
Split the highway between the riverbanks and apply *ford*=yes
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:ford%3Dyes> to this segment (in
addition to all other information pertaining to the highway).


Am 04.11.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
> On 4 November 2017 at 18:04, Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com
> <mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>> wrote:
>
> How to tag a way that is only passable for 3 hours during low tide?
>
>
> I would add http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tidal to indicate
> the way is within the tidal range, but you'd probably still want
> another tag to set access restrictions based on tide. 
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposed deletion of wiki pages about motorcycle_friendly=*

[Thilo Haug OSM]

You're talking about things like this ?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dinsect_hotel

Have those all been discussed ?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seamarks/Seamark_Object_Usage

When is it "low usage" ?
And how should usage appear (in a structured way),
if it's not documented ?
There's also low usage on those
(as there aren't many yet)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Dspaceport
There was a bunch of different values before,
as everybody mapped it the way he/her thought it might be right.

I didn't understand how those (motorcycle) tags might cause others to be
"not identifiable any more".

There weren't "various comments of other mappers",
there were mainly various comments by Warin61 :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly


Am 03.10.2017 um 11:52 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> 2017-10-03 11:34 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> Please describe which 'problems' you fear to appear if it's not
> deleted.
>
>
>
> If everybody creates feature pages for his personal, low usage
> features, the wiki looses it's function of documenting the generally
> used and established features, as they are not identifiable any more.
> You already have the proposal page, which states that this is a
> proposal, and documents the tags, no need to create confusion and
> clutter with a feature page that is not justified at this point.
>
> In the discussions about this tag, there have also been various
> comments of other mappers, that explained why they think that these
> tags are not suitable, so it should probably considered disputed.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposed deletion of wiki pages about motorcycle_friendly=*

[Thilo Haug]

Please describe which 'problems' you fear to appear if it's not deleted.
In case anyone would have improvement suggestions they are certainly 
appreciated.


Am Montag, 2. Oktober 2017 23:20:41 CEST schrieb marc marc 
:

Hello,

Le 02. 10. 17 à 13:21, Michael Reichert a écrit :

What are your opinions?


I totally adhere to the many problems you point out.

Regards,
Marc




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Re: [Tagging] How do you map shops that consider themselves multiple things?

[Thilo Haug]

That's why I proposed this :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop_subtags


Am Dienstag, 12. September 2017 16:18:59 CEST schrieb Marcos Oliveira 
:

There are places around me that plubicize have bakery and confectionaries
services and in all of them you could also consider them as cafés. How
would you deal with these cases?




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=* subtags

[Thilo Haug]

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't call watching television a sport,.
so this would be an alternative ?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgeneral


Am 10.09.2017 um 10:18 schrieb Philip Barnes:
> Not sure I would call darts a sport.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On 9 September 2017 15:55:21 BST, Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> I assume this would be a
>
> shop=sports
> darts:sales=yes
> darts:parts=yes   (from sport=darts)
> electronics:sales=yes
> electronics:type=television ?(from shop=electronics)
>
> any other options ?
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Delectronics
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Ddarts
>
> Am 09.09.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Andy Townsend:
>
> On 09/09/2017 15:05, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
>
> Thanks for the really exotic examples,
>
> Not quite as exotic as those, but I'm surprised that no-one's
> mentioned Borland's in Leith (either near or in Edinburgh
> depending on your point of view). The OSM node is just tagged
> as a sports shop http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3215674695
> but (at least as of earlier this year) it still had "Darts and
> Television" in the window as per
> https://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/borlands-sports-goods-shops-edinburgh
> :) Best Regards, Andy
> 
> 
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=* subtags

[Thilo Haug]

I assume this would be a

shop=sports
darts:sales=yes
darts:parts=yes   (from sport=darts)
electronics:sales=yes
electronics:type=television ?(from shop=electronics)

any other options ?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Delectronics
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Ddarts

Am 09.09.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Andy Townsend:
> On 09/09/2017 15:05, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the really exotic examples,
>>
>
> Not quite as exotic as those, but I'm surprised that no-one's
> mentioned Borland's in Leith (either near or in Edinburgh depending on
> your point of view).  The OSM node is just tagged as a sports shop
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3215674695
>
> but (at least as of earlier this year) it still had "Darts and
> Television" in the window as per
>
> https://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/borlands-sports-goods-shops-edinburgh
>
> :)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=* subtags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Thanks for the really exotic examples,
I'd say this is :

optician also selling delicatessen

shop=optician
deli:sales=yes
deli:type=?

---

bookshop in Paris, whose best known feature is the bánh mì sandwiches

shop=books
fast_food:sales=yes
cuisine=sandwich

---

sexshop for women, but also selling books and operating a cafe/bar

shop=books
amenity=cafe
erotic:sales=yes

not so sure which one of those (or both ?) :
erotic:clothes=yes
clothes:type=erotic ?

erotic:books=yes
books:type=erotic; ?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop_subtags


Tuba is a sexshop for women, but also selling books and operating a
cafe/bar:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/258081023
As the sexshop property is not very prominent in the shop I decided to
classify it as a bookshop and cafe.
Am 06.09.2017 um 13:50 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier:
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 13:40:16 +0200
> Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> my favorite one is this:
>> http://www.23hq.com/dieterdreist/photo/7089481?album_id=4237494
>> An optician also selling delicatessen (or maybe a delicatessen store
>> also selling glasses).
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2217707756 - Khai Tri is a Vietnamese
> bookshop in Paris, whose best known feature is the bánh mì sandwiches
> stand at the back of the shop... For now in Openstreetmap it is only a
> bookshop.
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=boutique WAS Re: Tagging Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

I think in such a case it would be seen as several shops
(like shops within a mall).
It's not totally unlikely that the same proprietor does something like this,
but I think it would be seldom enough
to accept there would need to be several points (shops)
within one building in this exception.

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 04.09.2017 um 05:42 schrieb Marc Gemis:
>> In the clothes example, we could certainly split the characteristics up in
>>
>> clothes:for=men/women/children
>> clothes:material=fur/leather/fabric/denim
>> clothes:type=fashion/sports/work/wedding
> there is a problem if you want to indicate that it only sells denims
> for men, sports clothes for children and fashion for women. I know
> this is a hypothetical example, but the proposal cannot express a link
> between material, type and target audience (for). And perhaps it is
> needed.
>
> m.
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop sub tag sell or sale

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

I think this is not the best example,
as VW and BMW would rather be brand=*

I thought *:sales= to be used with yes/no/used,
combined with
type=* (variants of the item which is sold)
and
parts=yes/no (in some cases additionally "custom")

The yes/no tags are easier to handle (for mappers)
and also for tools, as they don't have to parse everything.
The combination of yes/no values should give a picture of what is offered
(exept of "type" and "brand").

Example:
shop=motorcycle
motorcycle:sales=used
motorcycle:repair=yes
motorcycle:parts=yes
motorcycle:clothes=yes
bicycle:sales=no
bicycle:repair=yes

Would be the typical "no brand" - garage
which also repairs bicycles besides
and sells certain accessories.
If it would be specialised,
you could add motorcycle:type=scooter
(IMHO it would be microtagging to me more precise
regarding the kind of parts and clothes,
and it would give a mess of values).

In case of a shop=garden_centre
the (additonal) values might be
robot:sales=yes
robot:type=lawn_mower

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 04.09.2017 um 09:38 schrieb Warin:
> To put this out in the open - not to be confused with if it should be
> done,
>
> but rather what is better.
>
> So a new subject to attract attention and keep it only on what is
> better - 'Sale' or 'Sells'.
>
>
> The suggestions are to use a sub tag under shops that detail what is
> available for purchase, one side is for using 'sale' the other for
> 'sells'.
>
>
> I'll use an example of a car shop that has VW and BMW available. In an
> English sentence;
>
>
> The car shop has BMW and VW for sale.
>
>
> The car shop sells BMW and VW.
>
>
> The later sentence is simpler and more easily abbreviated to
>
> shop=car sells=BMW, VW
>
>
> This is also more readily understood and less confusing than
>
>
> shop=car sale=BMW, VW
>
>
> There is a confusion with the word 'sale' being commonly used with
> shops for a short term discount of goods usually to clear stock for
> another season
>
> e.g.
>
> http://www.marksandspencer.com/c/offers/sale
>
> http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/whats-on/shopping/ms-huge-secret-sale-clothes-13459589
>
>
>
> Comments - ideas ??? Straw poll?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop subtags

[Thilo Haug]

Yes, I think that shops in general are obsolete.
Plastic parts are made at home by 3d printer,
repair isn't done as Amazon doesn't offer it
and if I need a drill hammer it doesn't help to RENT it in the next
doityouself shop
when I didn't learn any craft anyway as everyone just got a PC job nowadays.
- sarcasm off -


Am 03.09.2017 um 15:51 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 3. Sep 2017, at 11:29, Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>
>> IMHO most shops will offer
>> *sales,rental,parts,repair,*
>> and different *type*s of the items they sell.
>
>
> where I live, almost no shop offers "repair", maybe they did 50-100
> years ago. Still it's good to know 
>
> "rental" is not a typical service of shops, unless we deal with
> specialized stuff. Ever rent a piece of Salami from the butcher?
> Socks? Stationery? A flattening iron? Vehicles, some machinery, sports
> equipment and wedding dresses aside, the world of stuff to rent is
> quite small. 
>
> Also "parts" for most things are incredibly hard to get, ever tried to
> get a replacement for some broken plastic part of something? Usually
> your only options are making them yourself or order them for the same
> price than the whole thing (depends on the thing, obviously).
>
> Anyway, it's good to have generic systematics, even if we don't need
> them most of the time, and especially the rare things are interesting
> to find. ;-)
>
> I would avoid the word "sales", either create a property with the verb
> "sells" or use the singular "sale", or maybe "vending" which is
> already in use. You don't propose "rentals" or "repairs", so "sales"
> is odd. What about leasing and hire purchase?
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin 
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=boutique WAS Re: Tagging Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3

[Thilo Haug]

How would you then avoid "multivalues" ?

For example for brand=*
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand

If a shop sells several brands (Honda;Yamaha;Suzuki;BMW;KTM),
how would you tag this ?

In the clothes example, we could certainly split the characteristics up in

clothes:for=men/women/children
clothes:material=fur/leather/fabric/denim
clothes:type=fashion/sports/work/wedding

But there might still be multiple values for each,
which clearly mean a listing to me if separated by semicolon.


Am 03.09.2017 um 14:32 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 2. Sep 2017, at 10:58, Rafael Avila Coya <ravilac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So if you have a shop that is "fashion" and women only, you could tag it as
>>
>> shop=clothes
>> clothes=women;fashion
>
> this isn't semantically clear, it could just as well mean clothes for women 
> and fashion. What about clothes=bridal;fur, does this mean bridal clothes in 
> fur? ;-)
> There are many different kinds of things and properties in the clothes tag, 
> which would require multivalues and lead to ambiguities if we'd continue this 
> "system", because you don't know if it's "AND" or "OR".
>  it's unclear what property "clothes" is describing, e.g. "women", "men", 
> "babies", "kids" are orthogonal to "fur", "leather", "denim", are orthogonal 
> to "underwear", "hats" are orthogonal to "sports", "wedding", "workwear", are 
> orthogonal to "traditional", "fashion" - while others are a mix ("bridal" or 
> "lingerie" imply women and exclude men, kids, babies).
>
> It's also inconsistent to map shoe shops with their own top level tag, but 
> hats shops or wedding shops not. I surely wouldn't lump specialized shops 
> like a bridal shop together with generic clothing shops and distinguish them 
> only in a subtag, that's absurd, because nobody will want to find the bridal 
> shop in his search results when s/he wants to buy clothes - unless it's for 
> your own wedding, which typically is very infrequently, and for which you'd 
> likely will search specifically.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] English grammar and back seat drivers Re: Tagging Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3

[Thilo Haug]

Why don't they call it a sale counter, then ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop_subtags


Am 03.09.2017 um 14:42 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 3. Sep 2017, at 09:46, Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>
>> "sells" is a verb (the action of doing something),
>> while "sales" is a noun
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun
>
>
> actually sales is the plural of the noun "sale". Why would you use the
> plural in this context? Especially as it typically means "a period
> during which a shop or dealer sells goods at reduced prices."
>
> I agree that the word "sells" is better  for use as a tag, a verb is
> ok for a property, a plural noun less so, and even less as it's highly
> ambiguous in this case.
>
> cheers,
> Martin 
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Clothes subtags (was "Tagging Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3" and before that "shop=fashion")

[Thilo Haug]

I don't only refer to clothes shops,
but to shops in general :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop_subtags

I don't think it's useful to discuss every single shop type from scratch
if there's a couple of tags which MIGHT apply to most of the shops.
We'll then see if they will be used. And if certain shops need extra tags.
Kinda standardization, easier to handle for any tool referring to OSM.


Am 03.09.2017 um 13:43 schrieb Andy Townsend:
> On 02/09/2017 18:19, Thilo Haug wrote:
>> Please consider there might be more useful subtags for shops, like :
>>
>> shop=clothes
>> clothes:type=fashion/boutique/work/sport
>> clothes:for=woman/men/children
>> clothes:repair=yes
>> clothes:rental=no
>> shoes:sales=yes
>>
>> the "for" key is used here :
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility#Whom_is_served_by_the_facility
>>
>> sales, rental, repair is used here :
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle
>
> By all means map clothes shops with extra detail, although no-one does
> it like that.  "shop=clothes" has 180k examples, "clothes:for" 1 and
> "clothes:rental" 1.  "clothes:type", "clothes:repair", "shoes:sales"
> and even "shoes:sells" all get "nul points" from the taginfo jury. 
> "clothes" as a subtag is however widely used:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/clothes (11k uses)
>
> Full range of combinations:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/shop=clothes#combinations
>
> Best Regards
> Andy
>
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop subtags

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

as of the current discussion about different clothes shops,
I proposed subtags for any type of shop :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop_subtags

IMHO most shops will offer
*sales,rental,parts,repair,*
and different *type*s of the items they sell.

Please comment.

Cheers,
Thilo

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff:Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique / subtags
Datum:  Sun, 3 Sep 2017 10:03:04 +0200
Von:Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de>
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org



shop=car, car_repair, car_parts
is a good example, if you compare it with
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle
see taginfo for combinations :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/motorcycle%3Arepair#combinations

You're more flexible to tag shops that offer different services
(such as also repairing other types of vehicles in this example)
if you just use the "main" purpose of the shop for the shop=* tag
and then the appropriate subkeys.
 

Am 01.09.2017 um 20:31 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> Can we apply this criteria/formula/checklist  to the following group
> of tags and see whether the have to be changed into subtags ?
>
> shop=clothes, boutique
> shop=supermarket, deli, convenience
> man_made/power=tower, mast, pole, flag_pole
> building=residential, house, semi-detached, apartment, villa
> shop=car, car_repair, car_parts, tire
>
> * is having a wikipedia page in 10 or more languages a criteria ? apparently 
> no
> * is having a large number of objects tagged like that in OSM a
> criteria ? apparently no
> * is knowing how many people have searched for each of those
> individual items a criteria ? Don't know, wouldn't know how we can
> count that.
>
> This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
> about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Daniel Koć <daniel@koć.pl> wrote:
>> W dniu 01.09.2017 o 17:51, Marc Gemis pisze:
>>
>>> So no, this group is not really representative for the community as a
>>> whole.
>>
>> But what is representative? And what about standardization? I would be happy
>> if we find a way to communicate things with wider community, but this is
>> what we have now. As I said - one can always disagree and use "any tag you
>> like" rule and that's OK for me. Standardization does not mean anybody
>> enforcing, just creating guidelines - and this is what we try to do.
>>
>> --
>> "Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O.
>> Muzalyev]
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique / subtags

[Thilo Haug]

shop=car, car_repair, car_parts
is a good example, if you compare it with
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle
see taginfo for combinations :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/motorcycle%3Arepair#combinations

You're more flexible to tag shops that offer different services
(such as also repairing other types of vehicles in this example)
if you just use the "main" purpose of the shop for the shop=* tag
and then the appropriate subkeys.
 

Am 01.09.2017 um 20:31 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> Can we apply this criteria/formula/checklist  to the following group
> of tags and see whether the have to be changed into subtags ?
>
> shop=clothes, boutique
> shop=supermarket, deli, convenience
> man_made/power=tower, mast, pole, flag_pole
> building=residential, house, semi-detached, apartment, villa
> shop=car, car_repair, car_parts, tire
>
> * is having a wikipedia page in 10 or more languages a criteria ? apparently 
> no
> * is having a large number of objects tagged like that in OSM a
> criteria ? apparently no
> * is knowing how many people have searched for each of those
> individual items a criteria ? Don't know, wouldn't know how we can
> count that.
>
> This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
> about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Daniel Koć <daniel@koć.pl> wrote:
>> W dniu 01.09.2017 o 17:51, Marc Gemis pisze:
>>
>>> So no, this group is not really representative for the community as a
>>> whole.
>>
>> But what is representative? And what about standardization? I would be happy
>> if we find a way to communicate things with wider community, but this is
>> what we have now. As I said - one can always disagree and use "any tag you
>> like" rule and that's OK for me. Standardization does not mean anybody
>> enforcing, just creating guidelines - and this is what we try to do.
>>
>> --
>> "Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O.
>> Muzalyev]
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3

[Thilo Haug]

"sells" is a verb (the action of doing something),
while "sales" is a noun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun

British & World English
"The exchange of a commodity for money; the action of selling something"
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sale

North American English
"The exchange of a commodity for money; the action of selling something"
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/sale

Example sentences :

 ‘The overall annual quantity of our beef sales to Egypt when
translated into live cattle equivalent amounts to 450,000 animals.’
‘Conflicting evidence suggests that swapping music either increases
or reduces CD *sales*.’
‘Imagined relationships are a part of the TV shopping channel
experience that increases *sales*.’
‘Over a period of time, the increase in *sales* starts to slow down
and this is known as the maturity stage.’
‘A survey released by the CBI has revealed that traders nationally
are facing a slower festive period with *sales* not as high as last year.’
‘Larger music companies say they'll reduce prices on the coolest CDs
in an effort to boost *sales* and reduce piracy.’
‘All divisions reported increased *sales* and either reduced losses
or improved earnings.’
‘Combine quick load times with great products as well as great
prices and your *sales* will start to sky rocket.’
‘If it is priced wisely, Octavia *sales* next year should increase
even further.’
‘While Nan Fung achieved solid *sales* by cutting prices, market
sources said other developers were unlikely to follow suit.’
‘Profits in Spain and Poland were reduced by price cuts, and *sales*
also slipped in Belgium and Ukraine.’
‘But when prices fall, *sales* generally increase, offsetting some
of the decrease in revenue.’
‘Margiotta said figures for the current year would show increases
and that *sales* at its new shop in Dundas Street were above target.’
‘The company says that on an annualised basis it will reduce *sales*
and marketing costs by £15 million a year.’
‘Marks and Spencer reported its first increase in quarterly clothing
*sales* for nearly three years with sales in Irish shops still on the rise.’
‘However, expectations are extremely high for the year ahead such
that three of four repair shops are expecting *sales* to increase.’
‘The shop targets to achieve *sales* worth Rs.23 crores during the
current financial year.’
‘It seems that this year's photography *sales* have started pushing
prices into areas once traditionally associated with paintings or
sculpture.’
‘The fall of the dollar has further weakened the company because the
value of its US *sales* were reduced when converted back to euro.’
‘The fear is that corporate profits have been boosted by cost
cutting, not increased *sales* and prices from a revival of the economy.’



Am 03.09.2017 um 00:53 schrieb Warin:
> On 03-Sep-17 03:19 AM, Thilo Haug wrote:
>> Please consider there might be more useful subtags for shops, like :
>>
>> shoes:sales=yes
>
> No, not 'sales'
>
> SELLS.
>
> 'Sales' are short term events where prices are (probably) lowered -
> usually at the end of season.
>  Do not use 'sales' as a tag.
>
> 'Sells' says something is available for purchase.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3

[Thilo Haug]

Please consider there might be more useful subtags for shops, like :

shop=clothes
clothes:type=fashion/boutique/work/sport
clothes:for=woman/men/children
clothes:repair=yes
clothes:rental=no
shoes:sales=yes

the "for" key is used here :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility#Whom_is_served_by_the_facility
sales, rental, repair is used here :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle


Am 02.09.2017 um 10:58 schrieb Rafael Avila Coya:
> +1
>
> And, IMHO, it would be smarter to drop shop=fashion and shop=boutique
> and incorporate it to the clothes=* tag, that has already
> clothes=children, clothes=women, etc. So if you have a shop that is
> "fashion" and women only, you could tag it as
>
> shop=clothes
> clothes=women;fashion
>
> As for shop=boutique, it's crystal clear that it's making more harm
> than good. You only have to do an overpass over different cities in
> francophone Africa and you will see the mess...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> On 01/09/17 19:13, Severin Menard wrote:
>>
>> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 12:48:25 +0200
>> From: Jean-Marc Liotier <j...@liotier.org <mailto:j...@liotier.org>>
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>>  <tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> <mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique
>> Message-ID: <20170901124825.76716...@manantali.encara.local.ads>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>> I still don't understand the need for anything other than
>> shop=clothes
>> used with assorted modifiers. Fashion is subjective and I do not see
>> why exclusive distribution channels should be tagged differently as
>> they are essentially clothes shop with no price tags and an
>> attitude.
>>
>> shop=car covers both the average Volskwagen dealership and the
>> workshop
>> that sells handmade locally built overpriced exotics with golden
>> urinal
>> that you never heard of. Why should it be different for clothes ?
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Simon,

I also can't see a difference
between boutique and fashion.
Both might be a shop
with other items than clothes
according to these definitions :

"A small shop selling fashionable clothes or accessories"
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/boutique
"a small store that sells stylish clothing, jewelry, or other usually
luxury goods".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boutique

"A popular or the latest style of clothing, hair, decoration, or behaviour."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fashion
"Fashion is a popular style or practice, especially in clothing,
footwear, accessories, makeup, body, or furniture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion

Possibly a
shop=fashion
with
fashion:type=accessories;clothes

I think this system may be described properly
without causing confusion.
Please let me know which "lot of reasons" you mean.

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 27.08.2017 um 15:04 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> There is a big difference between a limited number of binary options
> and  essentially moving all values in to key space (and I can give a
> lot of reasons why it is a really really bad idea in a free form, user
> extendible tagging system).
>
> But it seems to be rather off-topic in this thread in any case: I
> simply wanted to know if there is a clear characterisation of
> shop=fashion that can serve as disambiguation between it and
> shop=boutique and shop=clothes (with appropriate additional tags).
>
> We have one voice saying that it should be considered a cheap variant
> of boutique limited to clothes, and the others suggesting that it is
> an upmarket shop=clothes and that shop=boutique should have a broader
> not only clothes definition.
>
> One takeaway is that adding the "clothes" tag both to fashion and
> boutique would be a good idea.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 26.08.2017 um 13:53 schrieb Thilo Haug:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm in favor of a namespace solution,
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace
>> e.g.
>>
>> ski:clothes=yes
>> surfing:clothes=yes
>> motorcycle:clothes=yes
>> any_other_sport:clothes=yes
>>
>> and so on.
>>
>> This way you may also tag other shops (not just shop=clothes)
>> in a way which exactly describes their offers,
>> in this example possibly a shop=sports.
>>
>> The same works also for other services they offer,
>> like
>> ski:repair=yes
>> ski:rental=yes
>> ski:parts=yes
>>
>> This way there's no need to create a new shop type
>> or decide whether it's MORE one type of shop (bicycle vs. motorcycle
>> vs. car or similar)
>> in case they offer very various things.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Thilo
>>
>>
>> Am 26.08.2017 um 13:13 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
>>> On 26. Aug 2017, at 11:15, Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
>>> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> the question turned up if shop=fashion (with 5000 something uses)
>>>> should not be deprecated (==not offered for new use) due to overlap
>>>> with
>>>> shop=boutique (~11'000 uses) and shop=clothes, clothes=fashion (not
>>>> particularly popular with roughly 200 uses). It just doesn't seem to
>>>> have a good definition, which is already pointed out on the wiki page
>>>> (but without a conclusion).
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd see shop=fashion similar with shop=boutique, while shop=clothes
>>> is not particularly helpful if you're looking to buy clothes (too
>>> generic). I'd roughly see it like this: boutique expensive, fashion
>>> cheap(er), department store both, supermarket cheap ;-)
>>>
>>> What would I search for if I wanted to buy a suit or a shirt
>>> (department shops apart which will sell you anything)? Maybe a
>>> "boutique for men"? To buy gloves I'd try with a  shop=bags? Or
>>> shop=leather? Or shop=sports? Or an outdoor shop? There are many
>>> places to buy clothes, cheap, casual, formal, according to the
>>> material, for work, gender, age, style, one brand/designer or
>>> multiple, or no (known) designer, discounter, different types of
>>> clothing (underwear, shirts, etc.
>>> I'm rather against reduction of top level shop types, there's IMHO a
>>> clear distinction between fashion shops and boutiques, with maybe
>>> some edge cases, but still useful overall. Nonetheless I agree that
>>> shop=clothes does require subtags to be more useful, but the current
>>> situation in the clothes key is not working:
&g

Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

I'm in favor of a namespace solution,
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace
e.g.

ski:clothes=yes
surfing:clothes=yes
motorcycle:clothes=yes
any_other_sport:clothes=yes

and so on.

This way you may also tag other shops (not just shop=clothes)
in a way which exactly describes their offers,
in this example possibly a shop=sports.

The same works also for other services they offer,
like
ski:repair=yes
ski:rental=yes
ski:parts=yes

This way there's no need to create a new shop type
or decide whether it's MORE one type of shop (bicycle vs. motorcycle vs.
car or similar)
in case they offer very various things.

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 26.08.2017 um 13:13 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 26. Aug 2017, at 11:15, Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
>> the question turned up if shop=fashion (with 5000 something uses)
>> should not be deprecated (==not offered for new use) due to overlap with
>> shop=boutique (~11'000 uses) and shop=clothes, clothes=fashion (not
>> particularly popular with roughly 200 uses). It just doesn't seem to
>> have a good definition, which is already pointed out on the wiki page
>> (but without a conclusion).
>
>
> I'd see shop=fashion similar with shop=boutique, while shop=clothes is
> not particularly helpful if you're looking to buy clothes (too
> generic). I'd roughly see it like this: boutique expensive, fashion
> cheap(er), department store both, supermarket cheap ;-)
>
> What would I search for if I wanted to buy a suit or a shirt
> (department shops apart which will sell you anything)? Maybe a
> "boutique for men"? To buy gloves I'd try with a  shop=bags? Or
> shop=leather? Or shop=sports? Or an outdoor shop? There are many
> places to buy clothes, cheap, casual, formal, according to the
> material, for work, gender, age, style, one brand/designer or
> multiple, or no (known) designer, discounter, different types of
> clothing (underwear, shirts, etc.
> I'm rather against reduction of top level shop types, there's IMHO a
> clear distinction between fashion shops and boutiques, with maybe some
> edge cases, but still useful overall. Nonetheless I agree that
> shop=clothes does require subtags to be more useful, but the current
> situation in the clothes key is not working:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/clothes#values
> There are many orthogonal, specific properties tagged, e.g. target
> group (women, men, children, babies), for specific occasions/uses
> (sports/wedding/workwear), materials (denim/fur), type
> (underwear/lingerie). Fashion would be yet another new category in
> this cauldron (with 111 uses it isn't really significant).
>
> cheers,
> Martin 
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Voting: expand the aeroway key with aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=landingpad, aeroway=launchpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Another reminder :
Vote end: 2017-05-30 (in 4 days)

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 16.05.2017 um 10:28 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> Just a reminder: today voting for the aeroway key redefinition is
> starting, please vote:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/include_spacecraft_in_aeroway
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi Martin,

I have no clue what you mean with "downloaded the other day all objects",
I just adjusted a couple of objects (~5) whose tagging was very erratic.

In a lot of wiki descriptions is mentioned to "just act" if necessary.
I've taken the most common parameters and combined them with the most
obvious (existing) key.
That's not rocket science... ;-)
If someone feels that this should be documented more specific he/her is
free to do so.

I think we will discourage a bunch of potentially interested
contributors to add anything
if some request a discussion / proposal ("doctorate") for every slight
adjustment/documentation update.
There are some (older) opinions here, I think this should be followed up:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposal_process#Cleanup_Request
One example :
Yeah. The mailing list is kind of daunting. It seems to get a zillion
messages a day, but if I want to cut to the chase and discuss a new
feature I feel it will be lost in the noise. Meanwhile the wiki has
perfectly adequate features around watchlists and discussion pages that
don't require me to parse all that noise just to hear the one
conversation that I am interested in. Karora 10:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 02.05.2017 um 13:04 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-05-01 23:14 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> [...]  changing without reviewing cases individually
>
>
>
> this one?
>
> It leaves a bit of a bad taste if you declare on the mailing list 'I'm
> getting tired of this "discussion and proposal" stuff' and then it
> gets discovered you downloaded and modified the other day all objects
> of a certain kind to unify their tagging with a previously
> undocumented and hardly used tag, and then modify the wiki to document
> this style of tagging. And then write an announcement here without
> telling anybody that you modified these objects to fit your documentation.
>
> On the other hand, I don't think it is completely harmful what you
> have done, because there are so few of these objects and we would all
> benefit from uniform tagging. The main issue is with the key you
> chose, of which the general definition is in contradiction with the
> specific tag you added, but I am trying to fix tis by extending the
> key definition with a proposal.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Am 01.05.2017 um 22:34 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> surely their performer didn't follow the automated edits code of conduct.
O really, which case applies ?

  * changes made by Bots ,
which by definition act autonomously from human intervention.
  * data imports , including
both fully automated imports and ones where a standard editor is used;
  * other scripted changes made to the database;
  * [...]  changing without reviewing cases individually

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct


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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Martin,

if you generally think that "aeroway (is) not appropriate for spacecraft",
but people already used it before, why don't you create a proposal
for the "correct" tagging in your point of view ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:aeroway%3Dspaceport

I'm getting tired of this "discussion and proposal" stuff
if it just leads to thwart obviously necessary documentation updates.

As of my current OSM experience,
the discussion culture urgently needs an update
in terms of a "code of conduct".

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 01.05.2017 um 18:44 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-05-01 18:30 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> Hello all,
>
> as aeroway=spaceport was already in use,
> I created a wiki description for it :
>
>
>
> as you know from the parallel thread you have started, this
> combination is disputed. There is no usage in numbers that would
> justify "de facto" usage documentation IMHO, please make this a proposal.
>
> Thank you,
> Martin
>
>
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[Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

as aeroway=spaceport was already in use,
I created a wiki description for it :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Dspaceport

Launchpad is also in use :
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/oL2

I case you feel this should be further discussed,
please leave your comment here :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:aeroway%3Dspaceport

Cheers,
Thilo


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Re: [Tagging] wikipedia links and copy + paste in tag definitions

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

so what is the principle of the "organisation of information" in OSM ?

Up to now, I couldn't find a documentation that explains
the general philosophy how to tag items.

Cheers,
Thilo

> different organisation of information.
> will very likely not be what we want.



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Re: [Tagging] wikipedia links and copy + paste in tag definitions

[Thilo Haug OSM]

> Do not falsely conflate "complex" with "worse". You original complaint
> was, in effect, that there was a lack of complexity, now you complain
> that there is.
In the OSM Wiki there's enough complexity
(and not everything is "orthogonal").

If you'd like to tag tourism POIs,
you should check several wiki pages :

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourism
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity#Sustenance
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport#Core_values
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:leisure

All of those are interesting when on holidays
but there's no overview about that and the pages aren't linked.
Quite complex for a beginner
(what will an OSM navigation app user be interested in first ?)

Sometimes it's not clear why an item is in a certain category,
for example : why is this an "amenity" and not a "shop=vending_machine" ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvending_machine
(or an own key vending_machine=).

You will always have differences in definitions, especially in different
countries.
There's a nice example in the German Duden dictionary / Duden
Fremdwörterbuch (foreign word dictionary) :
"intellectual" is in one defined as someone with higher education,
in the other one as someone who questions things critically "in a mental
creative way".
Doesn't exclude each other, but quite different.

I agree that in some cases it might be difficult (just) to link to
wikipedia,
but I'm pretty sure that it helps to get some background information
about the "big picture"
in case you personally just know certain aspects of this item.

Cheers,
Thilo

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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug]

Hello all,

I agree with Martin,
as the recent developments in rocket technology
could also have made a change in people's point of view.

There's a third area I forgot to mention :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Landing_Zone_1

As it differs from a launchpad (no tower), it should be distinguished,
example :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/327972299#map=17/28.48554/-80.54476

Example start & landing :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ORBCOMM-2_(23815832891).jpg

I'm just wondering whether "landingpad" might be confused with those :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Dhelipad
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site

Answered Martin's question here, please state your opinion :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways

Just in case you didn't follow the last developments :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_the_Moon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Mars#Future_missions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mission_to_Mars

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 29.04.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 28. Apr 2017, at 21:53, Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think everyone interested in spacefaring must have turned away from
>> the wiki when the amenity=skyhook proposal was rejected in 2008 by
>> people without the slightest bit of vision:
>
> everyone of the 25.000 registered users in early 2008, but we've now a much 
> bigger userbase so it might be worth giving it a second try...
>
> cheers,
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport , aeroway=launchpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi Frederik,

I think the main difference is
that spaceports already exist (and are "on the ground") :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_launch_sites

In case of the skyhook I'm not so surprised of the denial,
given the culture of denial without constructive criticism
which isn't controlled a.t.m. by an appropriate social rule.
Will IMHO get worse the more people participate,
imagine all facebook-users commenting proposals...

What do you think about aeroway=spaceport ?
I'm not a specialist in spaceport infrastructure,
but I'd generally like to be able to filter for them in OSM,
which isn't possible if they are tagged as
"amenity=space_centre/spaceport/cosmodrome/..."
See the examples mentioned here :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways#aeroway.3Dspaceport

For further details I could imagine using
aeroway=launchpad
(similar to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Dhelipad)

The rest of the buildings should IMHO be similar to an airport,
or standard tags may be used :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aeroways
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dbunker

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 28.04.2017 um 20:45 schrieb Thilo Haug OSM:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm astonished there isn't a description for spaceports yet,
> therefore the tagging differs widely :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways#aeroway.3Dspaceport
>
> - Proposals / Opinions ?
>
> IMHO amenity doesn't fit well,
> as it's just another kind of airport.
>
> Cheers,
> Thilo
>
>
>
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[Tagging] aeroway=spaceport

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

I'm astonished there isn't a description for spaceports yet,
therefore the tagging differs widely :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways#aeroway.3Dspaceport

- Proposals / Opinions ?

IMHO amenity doesn't fit well,
as it's just another kind of airport.

Cheers,
Thilo



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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Thilo Haug OSM]

In Germany this is the same :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post


Am 15.04.2017 um 17:04 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>> How is it not a post office that just happens to have an operator other than
>> the state?
> So if I ask you "where is the nearest post office?" , it is possible
> that you send me to a DHL office ?
>
> m
>
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Re: [Tagging] office=therapist??

[Thilo Haug OSM]

I think it's similar to :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmassage

"office" is really strange


Am 13.04.2017 um 23:23 schrieb John Willis:
>
>
> Javbw
>
> On Apr 14, 2017, at 4:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> > wrote:
>
>> Looking through the current list of documented office values I came
>> across so that really sound odd to me, e.g.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aoffice%3Dtherapist
>>
>> wouldn't this be much better suited for the amenity tag?
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin 
>>
>> sent from a phone
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>
> I'm guessing it is a catch-all for offices (businesses) of therapists,
> psychologists, and other guidance/counselor people. 
>
> Therapists have offices, so perhaps similar to shop=* , people are
> using office=* to define various companies that you would find in
> building=office, similar building=retail, because the idea of
> "amenity" can be really confusing and is full of all kinds of things
> now...  
>
> Javbw. 
>
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - drying:*=*

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

please check this proposal and comment on the discussion page :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/drying

This is thought for all kinds of sport accommodations
which offer a possibility to dry your equipment.

Thanks in advance,
Cheers,
Thilo


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Re: [Tagging] Vertical farming vs. other vertical plants

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

regarding vertical plants,
some examples against air pollution came to my mind.
it's not really "farming", but at least an "artificial" way to grow plants,
so it doesn't really fit with "natural"
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:natural

Do you think this should be considered ?

I could imagine to extend this tag for it :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green
Something like this ? :
landuse=village_green
landuse:type=vertical
landuse:horticulture=lichen,moss

Existing keys :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:plant_community
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trees

In the press :
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/world/americas/vertical-gardens-in-mexico-a-symbol-of-progress.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/toby-nwazor/new-yorks-biggest-ever-gr_1_b_12450500.html
http://www.dw.com/en/stuttgart-builds-moss-covered-wall-to-fight-air-pollution/a-37866760

Some more links :
https://www.witpress.com/Secure/elibrary/papers/AIR15/AIR15025FU1.pdf
http://www.iasp.asp-berlin.de/bilder/poster1302.pdf
http://ccap.org/green-walls-living-walls-green-roofs-courtesy-of-epa-pnc

Selling plant walls :
http://www.plantsonwalls.com/Default.asp
http://plantwalldesign.com/eng/home.html

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 15.03.2017 um 07:32 schrieb Warin:
> On 15-Mar-17 05:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 15 Mar 2017, at 04:39, Dave Swarthout > > wrote:
>>
>>> I've seen this list run on and on with discussions about how to tag
>>> wastebins and such but for this one, an arguably important future
>>> tagging construct, hardly a ripple. And members who are usually so
>>> vocal about tagging issues are strangely quiet.  Martin? Warin?
>>> John? Marc? What's up?
>>
> Simple.
> What are you tagging?
>
> The farm?
> landuse=farmland
> produce=?
>
> The factory where the produce is turned into product
> Landuse=industrial
> building=factory
> product=?
>
> The shop where the product is sold
> landuse=commercial
> shop=?
> sells=?
>
>>
>> I don't see a big difference between growing grass and growing
>> marijuana, similarly corn. At least if it's grown outdoors without
>> the help of artificial lighting.
>> Have a look at the key crop: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crop
>> Well, besides that it is quite rare, mostly illegal with the
>> exception of some fields operated for the pharmaceutical industry
>> (the high THC concentration one). Then there's also kind of a
>> comeback of hemp for fibre production (low THC concentration, legal
>> in the EU).
>>
>> Vertical farming sounds interesting, but isn't something I've yet
>> seen in the real. There have been some projects in Europe as well,
>> but AFAIK have not been realized, see e.g. this one by dutch
>> architects MVRDV:
>> https://www.mvrdv.nl/projects/181-pig-city#/archive
>> http://www.alternet.org/story/135410/high_rise_farms_the_new_model_for_sustainable_cities
>>
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin 
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Day/night speed limits / taginfo, overpass

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Tod,

here's an overview of the existing entries :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/maxspeed%3Aconditional#values

And some tagged entities :
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/nt2

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 13.03.2017 um 17:40 schrieb Tod Fitch:
> Based on the conditional restrictions pages on the wiki, I think it might be 
> tagged as:
>
> "maxspeed:conditional”="45 mph@dawn-dusk;40 mph@dusk-dawn”
>
> Is this correct? (I seem to have a comprehension issue with the conditional 
> tagging syntax).
>
> Thanks!
>
>> On Mar 13, 2017, at 9:27 AM, Tod Fitch <t...@fitchdesign.com> wrote:
>>
>> There are a number of roads in Arizona, and perhaps elsewhere, that have 
>> different speed limits for night vs day. You can see some examples with this 
>> search [1]. These are not based on wall clock time as they vary with the 
>> time of sunrise and sunset. Suggestions on how to tag the speed limits on 
>> the roads affected?
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=arizona+day%2Fnight+speed+limit+sign=msl=v45-6=1=images
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Day/night speed limits

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Tod,

there's the same in Germany,
from Stuttgart to Munich you just got 8pm to 10pm "without" limit.

How about maxspeed:10:00-20:00=120
or maxspeed:22:00-06:00=100

This would be the format which is used by opening_hours,
just in front of the equal sign.
Have no clue if this may be interpreted by the affected frontends.

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 13.03.2017 um 17:27 schrieb Tod Fitch:
> There are a number of roads in Arizona, and perhaps elsewhere, that have 
> different speed limits for night vs day. You can see some examples with this 
> search [1]. These are not based on wall clock time as they vary with the time 
> of sunrise and sunset. Suggestions on how to tag the speed limits on the 
> roads affected?
>
> [1] 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=arizona+day%2Fnight+speed+limit+sign=msl=v45-6=1=images
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or Drying_area : Proposal page draft created

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

I created a (separate) proposal page for this,
to keep the overview :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/drying

Feel free to change it, as it's in draft state,
just thought to keep everything together (to me it's difficult to keep
track of everything in the mailing list)

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 13.03.2017 um 11:51 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-03-12 11:14 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson  >:
>
> +1 to drying-room=yes
> or drying-space=room
> , also it would seem to be a place to dry your motorcycle with
> the prefix.
>
>
> I see drying-space=room as being handy.  Bonus round is if it
> starts getting rendered in default style sheets, it makes things
> that much easier for making a local branch for a convention or
> other event, e.g., a fursuit or cosplay lounge with a fan rack...
>
>
>
> I think we have room for both and could well distinguish with
> different main tags places like this (collective open air place to dry
> washing in the sun/wind):
> https://farm8.static.flickr.com/7431/28074475256_12ecb3b9de_b.jpg
>
> and like this (drying room inside a facility):
> https://www.smartertravelworkplaces.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ESB-Partner-Site-Visit-2012..Drying-Room1.jpg
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - amenity=courier

[Thilo Haug]

I think I missed the beginning.
Is this tag also about the places where you may pick up your parcels
in case you weren't at home ?

In this case, amenity would fit, as they usually aren't offices
(I got a station, a laundry and a convenience shop as an example, for
UPS, Hermes and DHL).

By the way, how to distinguish between amenity=post_office
and amenity=courier in case of DHL ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post_DHL


Am 09.03.2017 um 01:06 schrieb Philip Barnes:
> On Thu, 2017-03-09 at 10:33 +1100, Warin wrote:
>> At least some courier firms have offices where you can go to;
>> send things - saves waiting for a courier to arrive at "some time" 
>> during the day.
>> pick something up .. when you have not been home when the courier 
>> arrived (supposedly).
> True, I think that it should be mapped as office. It doesn't really fit
> in with amenity. When an estate agent says close to the amenities they
> are not considering a nearby Fed-ex depot.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>> On 09-Mar-17 08:56 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
>>> Are you trying to map the location of an office of a courier
>>> service? 
>>> Couriers themselves are people, and by the nature of their
>>> business 
>>> have no fixed location.
>>>
>>>
>>> On March 8, 2017 3:32:23 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 On 08-Mar-17 08:42 PM, muzirian wrote:
> A company that transports commercial packages and documents.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcourier
>
 What physical feature are you mapping?

 The description says "A company.." Companies are legal entities
 ... not
 physical features.






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Re: [Tagging] New access key for Segway needed - autobalancing:segway=* ?

[Thilo Haug]

I know a guy who got a "segway" wheelchair. The acceleration is impressive.
("autobalancing device or *similar technical equipment*")
Think if this would become usual (like electric cars do),
there might also be restrictions of usage (speed),
similar to the Pedelec example.

In Germany, law includes the term "maximum speed depending on the type
of construction".
Means it might be forbidden if there's only the possibility you could go
faster.

This one is "generally forbidden" in Germany as it's faster than 6 km/h
(counts as "motor vehicle")
and therefore forbidden on sidewalks and bicycle lanes.
For street usage, the technical specification is currently missing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-balancing_two-wheeled_board
German :
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Board#Rechts-_und_Zulassungsfragen

Perhaps
autobalancing:segway=*
autobalancing:hoverboard=*
autobalancing:unicycle=*
autobalancing:wheelchair=*

(leaves the possibility to extend it if needed) ?

Here's an overview of restrictions by country depending on the type of way :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions

But I don't think that in the near future
there will be a countrywide regulation for those auto-balancing devices
for many countries (as technical development is faster than the
government's rule definition).

HTH, cheers,
Thilo


Am 13.03.2017 um 13:01 schrieb Max:
> On 2017년 03월 13일 12:17, Dalibor Jelínek wrote:
>>> Does it include skateboards, vehicles for disabled?
>> Nope, they do not have that autobalancing device.
>>
>>> Do the devices have to have motors?
>> Aparently no.
>
> Those two contradict. If it is self balancing it needs a motor.
>
> Maybe interesting in this context: Most countries in the EU treat
> Pedelecs (Pedal-Electric-Cycles) as bicycles, even though they have a
> motor assistance up to 25km/h. Only when there is assistance over
> 25km/h they fall in the category of motorized vehicles.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Holiday house for groups --> group_accommodation ?

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

I checked whether there is some word for it.

In German, it seems it's called group_house :
https://gruppenhausmieten.com
https://www.gruppenhaus.de - 5096 Houses
https://www.belvilla.de/ferienhaus-gruppen
http://www.gruppenhäuser.info
https://www.ep-reisen.de/reisen-fuer-gruppen/gruppenhaeuser/gruppenhaeuser-mieten

In English, i found several group_accommodation
"hotels, countryside estates and castles, holiday villas and chalets"
http://www.groupaccommodation.com
"Large Group Accommodation in the UK" :
http://www.partyhouses.co.uk
https://www.stayz.com.au/large-groups-accommodation
Large group self catering holiday accommodation
*"large holiday villas to a group of holiday cottages to suit large
numbers"*
http://www.lovetoescape.com/idea/1163/large-group-self-catering-holiday-accommodation.htm*
*self-catering *country house, mansion or cottage**complex *
https://www.countrycottagesonline.net/project/search/Large-group-accommodation_Somerset.php

As those a really huge (different to a chalet or apartment),
I'd assume you should find some phrases to distinguish it from smaller ones
and name it group_accommodation ?

like
tourism=chalet
group_accommodation=yes

tourism=hotel
group_accommodation=yes

What's missing, is a tag for *mansion*/villa,
but it would be hard to define :
"In British English a mansion block refers to a*block of flats or
apartments* designed for the appearance of grandeur. In many parts of
Asia, including Hong Kong and Japan, the word mansion also refers to a
block of apartments.[...]
These town mansions were referred to as '*houses*' in London, *hotels*
in Paris and *palaces* in most European cities elsewhere."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansion

"a large impressive house"
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/mansion

(I think it's better to use "chalet" instead)

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 13.03.2017 um 09:27 schrieb Lorenzo "Beba" Beltrami:
> 2017-03-12 22:27 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>>:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 12 Mar 2017, at 17:04, althio <althio.fo...@gmail.com
> <mailto:althio.fo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Well then as Thilo said, if it is not
>> "tourism=apartment"
>> it is
>> "tourism=chalet"
>
>
> it is neither, the established tourism tags describe quite
> specific accommodation types in osm and these bigger venues to
> rent as a whole are not covered by any of them, as far as I can see.
>
> a chalet according to the wiki :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dchalet
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dchalet>
> A type of accommodation. The term chalet is used in the
> hospitality industry to describe one or more detached holiday
> cottages with self-contained cooking facilities and/or bathroom
> and toilet facilities.
>
>
> +1
> I totally agree.
> Both tourism=apartment and tourism=chalet are for detached houses.
> With number_of_apartments=* you can specify a building with many
> apartments, but not a building like a very big apartment.
>
> To clarify I've found some pictures:
> - https://ibin.co/3FOpHCbLtFVo.jpg
> - https://ibin.co/3FOph7H8yefQ.jpg
> - https://ibin.co/3FOpr6iSeNT6.jpg
>
> Some of them were formerly (50 to 70 years ago) hotels, the capacity
> is from 30 to 80 people. The kitchen is only one for all.
>
> Doing some proposal: is best to create a new tag (like
> tourism=vacation_house) or to add a tag to tourism=apartment (like
> groups=yes or simply capacity=80)?
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Holiday house for groups - tourism=chalet with number of rooms / capacity ?

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Lorenzo,

IMHO this is currently "chalet" :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dchalet

But I think you'd like to differentiate the
"many bedrooms, with a big kitchen" ?

How about combining
tourism=chalet
with
rooms=
amenity=kitchen
and possibly
capacity=groups
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:capacity

?

Some campings also offer group tents,
so this could also be used for them ?

I'm generally interested in "tourism" POIs,
so I'd like to assist in this.
There's a former voted proposal for motorcycle accommodatons
which has been "reactivated" as similar keys might be also used
for other sports such as skiing, bicycle a.s.o. :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly
Perhaps this is an example which helps for the "overall strategy" to
find the ideal solution ?

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 11.03.2017 um 18:37 schrieb Lorenzo "Beba" Beltrami:
> 2017-03-11 13:25 GMT+01:00 Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> Hi Lorenzo,
>
> I just know youth hostels which offer that.
>
> In this case it's definitely not a youth hostel.
> First because it's not only for youth, second because a hostel is
> operated by someone (a person or a company) which is not the case of
> these holiday houses.
>
> The main characteristic of these holiday houses is that there is no
> operator and the group have to manage it autonomously (they have to
> clean, to cook, bring the sheets to sleep and the food...).
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or Drying_area

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Paul,

what do you think of :

*drying:room=*yes/heated/no
*drying:compartment=*yes/no/heated
*drying:dryer=*convection/inertised/microwave

?

The format is usual for addr:*=* and contact:*.*
I think it would give the flexibility to enhance it if needed.

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 12.03.2017 um 11:14 schrieb Paul Johnson:
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 8:26 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 11 Mar 2017, at 02:19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Err this will be a separate key I think of it more as a property
>> key .. like internet_access
>> ?
>> Consider that these are not only attractive to motorcyclists but
>> also to hikers, bicyclist, canoeists, canyoners, skiers ...
>> anyone with wet gear. There is noting specific to any drying
>> room/area that I have seen that limits it to motorcyclists only.
>
>
> +1 to drying-room=yes
> or drying-space=room
> , also it would seem to be a place to dry your motorcycle with the
> prefix.
>
>
> I see drying-space=room as being handy.  Bonus round is if it starts
> getting rendered in default style sheets, it makes things that much
> easier for making a local branch for a convention or other event,
> e.g., a fursuit or cosplay lounge with a fan rack...
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or Drying_area

[Thilo Haug]

Yes, was my fault, a bit tired in the middle of the night, wasn't logical

--- Weitergeleitete Nachricht 

Betreff:Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or 
Drying_area
Datum:  Sat, 11 Mar 2017 03:25:44 +0100
Von:Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de>
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>

O.k., I see, in case of drying_room it doesn't work.

Perhaps:
drying:room=yes/no/heated
drying:compartment=yes/no/heated
drying:dryer=convection/inertised/microwave
(leaves the possibility to add more "drying" stuff if needed ?).


Am 11.03.2017 um 15:46 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 11 Mar 2017, at 02:33, Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> skiing:drying=heated
>
> the non-heated areas to store wet skiing equipment are 
> skiing:freezing=not_heated?
>
> Btw., drying is also offered as a service (drying machines).
> I think drying=yes/heated/tumble_dryer)
> could be a property, while a room could also be a main tag, same with area 
> (around here there are a lot of shared courtyards with dedicated space to put 
> your washing in the sun, similarly on rooftops). You could add covered=yes, 
> location=indoor/outdoor...
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or Drying_area or equipment_drying

[Thilo Haug]

Hello all,

how about equipment_drying ?

So even skiing equipment would be included, also tents a.s.o.

equipment_drying:room=yes/heated

Or we leave the "equipment" away
and use this kind of nomenclature,
which leaves IMHO more flexibility :

drying:room=yes/no/heated
drying:compartment=yes/no/heated
drying:dryer=convection/inertised/microwave
(leaves the possibility to add more "drying" stuff if needed ?).

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 11.03.2017 um 07:27 schrieb Warin:
> On 11-Mar-17 05:13 PM, Yves wrote:
>> Of course in an hotel there is not much confusion possible with
>> agricultural purposes , however why not clothes_drying if 'area' is
>> used in the tag?
>
> Some dry tents, at least I do. I can see some drying backpacks,
> sleeping bags.. mine are usually dry.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] water=pool

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Andrew,

in my opinion, this combination is describing it best :
natural=water
water=pond
in case it's man_made
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Aman_made>, it should be
tagged like this.
(the person who wrote "man-made in most cases"
possibly talks about the central park ;-) )

Regarding "the process for working out if this is the best choice",
I also assumed there should be something like a "code of conduct",
but it seems there isn't something unambiguous :

On 09-Mar-17 10:48 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
There are a some references to tagging here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Joto/How_to_invent_tags
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Duck_tagging
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging

Cheers,
Thilo

"All the really stressful times for me have been about process. They
haven't been about code. When code doesn't work, that can actually be
exciting ... Process problems are a pain in the ass. You never, ever
want to have process problems ... That's when people start getting
really angry at each other."
Linus Thorvalds

Am 11.03.2017 um 10:24 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
> I'm looking for a tag for "A small and rather deep collection of
> (usually) fresh water, as one supplied by a spring, or occurring in
> the course of a stream;" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pool#English
> also like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_pool.
>
> They come in all shapes and sizes but are usually part of a
> stream/creek where it is deep enough for water to collect there.
>
> Some photo examples:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/136319147@N08/32171903253/in/datetaken-public/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/136319147@N08/32986671125/in/datetaken-public/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/136319147@N08/25031837975/in/datetaken-public/
>
> It's not a lake which is much larger.
>
> I don't think it's right to use water=pond, which is "man-made in most
> cases", and seems to be more commonly used for places in a park where
> you find ducks, often with lots of vegetation.
>
> water=pool seems like the best option. Here is Australia at least a
> lot of them have a name like "... Pool". But since it's undocumented
> I'm not sure what the 226 current uses of the tag are.
>
> What's the process for working out if this is the best choice, and if
> it turns out to be documenting it on the wiki?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Holiday house for groups

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Lorenzo,

I just know youth hostels which offer that.
It's not defined yet but exists as a "Related Term" :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dhostel#See_also

It's just used three times yet :
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/nqv

youth_hostel or youth_camp

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 11.03.2017 um 12:28 schrieb Lorenzo "Beba" Beltrami:
> Hi all,
> I'm searching a valid tag for an holiday house rented to groups.
>
> It's something like tourism=apartment, but it's not a single apartment
> or a single family house, but an entire house (for example a former
> hotel) with many bedrooms, with a big kitchen and common places suited
> for groups that want to rent it and use it autonomously for an entire
> holiday (not like a tourism=guest_house which has an operator).
>
> I think something like tourism=vacation_house (not to be confused with
> a second home for vacation) or tourism=holiday_house.
> Wich could be the best?
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or Drying_area

[Thilo Haug]

O.k., I see, in case of drying_room it doesn't work.

Perhaps:
drying:room=yes/no/heated
drying:compartment=yes/no/heated
drying:dryer=convection/inertised/microwave
(leaves the possibility to add more "drying" stuff if needed ?).

__

Regarding the sports :

How about the other "services", those should be "sport-specific" ?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys

motorcycle:tools=yes
bicycle:tools=yes
skiing:tools=yes

motorcycle:tours=guided/info
bicycle::tours=guided/info
skiing:tours=guided/info

There's one thing I'm not quite sure about, that's
motorcycle:parking=yes
(I know that there's amenity=motorcycle_parking, but this doesn't work
on accommodations,
as there's often amenity=restaurant/bar etc. included)
So I see it similar to beer_garden (which is separately mapped) and
outdoor_seating=yes (combined with the accommodation).

Possibly
motorcycle:storage=garage/court
bicycle::storage=garage/court
skiing:storage=room/court

?
__


Am 11.03.2017 um 02:49 schrieb Warin:
> We do not tag
>
> motorcycle:tourism=hotel
> bicycle:tourism=hotel
> skiing:tourism=hotel
> hiking:tourism=hotel
>
> where they are all used by the same activities even the general
> public, we simply tag the singular feature tourism=hotel.
>
> nor do we tag
>
> motorcycle:internet_access=yes
> bicycle:internet_access=yes
> skiing:internet_access=yes
> hiking:internet_access=yes
>
> where they are all used by the same activities even the general
> public, we simply tag the singular property internet_access=yes.
>
> Same for drying rooms ... all used by anyone who has access, so only
> tagged once.
>
>
> On 11-Mar-17 12:33 PM, Thilo Haug wrote:
>>
>> That's what I meant with
>> "same for bicycle/skiing/hiking etc.".
>>
>> skiing:drying=heated
>>
>> This naming system is used by
>> addr:*=*
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Commonly_used_subkeys
>> contact:*=*
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:contact
>>
>
> Each of these are different properties ... not the same property used
> for different activities.
>>
>> And bicycle has an (undocumented) similar system :
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys
>> (I think the service: part could be left out, as I can't see the
>> advantage)
>>
>>
>> Am 11.03.2017 um 02:19 schrieb Warin:
>>> Err this will be a separate key
>>> I think of it more as a property key .. like internet_access 
>>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:internet_access>? 
>>> Consider that these are not only attractive to motorcyclists but also to 
>>> hikers, bicyclist, canoeists, canyoners, skiers ...  
>>> anyone with wet gear. There is noting specific to any drying room/area that 
>>> I have seen that limits it to motorcyclists only. 
>>> so 
>>> tourism=hotel
>>> drying_area=yes
>>> phone=23421 543453
>>> website=idon'tknow.ups 
>>> I suppose the values could be 
>>> drying_area=yes/no/heated/? 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> My thinking on the room vs area .. some are too small to be called a 
>>> 'room', 
>>> others can be used for other things like parking vehicles too. 
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11-Mar-17 11:51 AM, Thilo Haug wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> you're right, it doesn't have to be a separate room,
>>>> but how about :
>>>>
>>>> motorcycle:drying=room/area/compartment ?
>>>>
>>>> (same for bicycle/skiing/hiking etc.)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Thilo
>>>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or Drying_area

[Thilo Haug]

That's what I meant with
"same for bicycle/skiing/hiking etc.".

skiing:drying=heated

This naming system is used by
addr:*=*
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Commonly_used_subkeys
contact:*=*
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:contact

And bicycle has an (undocumented) similar system :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys
(I think the service: part could be left out, as I can't see the advantage)


Am 11.03.2017 um 02:19 schrieb Warin:
> Err this will be a separate key
> I think of it more as a property key .. like internet_access 
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:internet_access>? 
> Consider that these are not only attractive to motorcyclists but also to 
> hikers, bicyclist, canoeists, canyoners, skiers ...  
> anyone with wet gear. There is noting specific to any drying room/area that I 
> have seen that limits it to motorcyclists only. 
> so 
> tourism=hotel
> drying_area=yes
> phone=23421 543453
> website=idon'tknow.ups 
> I suppose the values could be 
> drying_area=yes/no/heated/? 
>
>
> 
> My thinking on the room vs area .. some are too small to be called a 'room', 
> others can be used for other things like parking vehicles too. 
>
>
> On 11-Mar-17 11:51 AM, Thilo Haug wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> you're right, it doesn't have to be a separate room,
>> but how about :
>>
>> motorcycle:drying=room/area/compartment ?
>>
>> (same for bicycle/skiing/hiking etc.)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Thilo
>>
>>
>> Am 11.03.2017 um 01:37 schrieb Warin:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Following on from the 'friendly:*=*' discussion there appears to be a
>>> desire to tag the property of a drying_room for some physical features.
>>>
>>>
>>> But I think some of these 'rooms' .. don't meet a strict definition of
>>> a 'room'?
>>>
>>>
>>> So would it be preferable to use 'drying_area' as a key value for this
>>> proposal?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: [Tagging] Request for Discussion - Drying_room or Drying_area

[Thilo Haug]

Hi,

you're right, it doesn't have to be a separate room,
but how about :

motorcycle:drying=room/area/compartment ?

(same for bicycle/skiing/hiking etc.)

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 11.03.2017 um 01:37 schrieb Warin:
> Hi,
>
> Following on from the 'friendly:*=*' discussion there appears to be a
> desire to tag the property of a drying_room for some physical features.
>
>
> But I think some of these 'rooms' .. don't meet a strict definition of
> a 'room'?
>
>
> So would it be preferable to use 'drying_area' as a key value for this
> proposal?
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] NEW APPROACH : Feature Proposal tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Martin,

do I need to search for "quintessence of osm" or "tagging of individual
aspects" to RTFM ? ;-)

Also in this case (such as with the email stuff)
I think it would be good to link to those "basics" in the relevant
documentation (RFC template ?)
to enable the new users to find it.

RTFM doesn't mean to me that I have to search for (possibly
"proprietary") terms
in the "top right OSM search box above".
(see the comment of Warin61 regarding the "feature" term in the
discussion "Values")
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly#No

Thanks for all your input.

Is there any "basic info" I should read ?

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 07.03.2017 um 15:51 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-03-07 13:30 GMT+01:00 Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> there's a totally different, interesting approach from Dieterdreist :
>
>
>
>
> Thank you for the laurel, but I have to reject them, prefering the
> tagging of individual aspects (many tags with clearly defined scope)
> rather than aggregated conclusions (few tags that combine different
> aspects of the same thing) is long proclaimed common practise in OSM.
> It makes the data more universally usable. It's the quintessence of osm.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> _______
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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[Tagging] NEW APPROACH : Feature Proposal tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

Hello all,

there's a totally different, interesting approach from Dieterdreist :

Assessment of tag
Here's an example: drying_room=yes, motorcycle_parking=yes,
motorcycle_repair_tools=yes, motorcycle_tour_tips=yes. I.E. these are 4
tags rather than one, and the drying room for instance isn't something
particularly related to motorcycle tourists, it can by used by everyone
with the need to dry his clothes. --10:55, 7 March 2017
(UTC)http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly#Assessment_of_tag_-_is_it_too_subjective.3F

As I mentioned above this discussion entry, I'd tend to the "KISS" solution,
unless I see that especially the tag "drying_room" would make sense for
several
(mountainbike, hiking, ski/snowboard etc.)

motorcycle_parking already exists :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_parking

So what's left is
repair_tools
and
tour_tips

Regarding the latter, I just don't see how this may be bound to either
"motorcycle" or "skiing",
as several Hotels have Skiing in Winter and Motorbike guests in Summer.

Any Ideas how this may be solved ?

I could imagine
motorcycle:tools=yes
motorcycle:parking=yes (then the existing key would need to be changed)
drying_room=yes (new key necessary)

Just don't got a good idea about the "information material" (how to be
used with other items ?)

I think shop=motorcycle should stay a "shop"?

There's currently a problem to differ between a motorcycle dealer
and a motorcycle clothes shop, for example Louis, Polo, Hein Gericke.
According to the current definition you may use
shop=motorcycle
together with
clothes=motorcycle (this is still in "draft" status)
I could imagine to use
motorcycle:clothes=yes
instead ?

Cheers,
Thilo

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff:Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle
friendly" for accomodations
Datum:  Tue, 7 Mar 2017 12:56:15 +0100
Von:Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de>
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>



Hi all,

thanks to Martin for the clarification.

In the discussion of the (former voted) wiki entry :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:motorcycle_friendly

I referred to the definition of the German automobile club :

8X---
The German automobile club has the following criteria :

  * (Theft) safe and secure motorcycle parking areas.
  * Facilities for wet clothes.
  * Tools for minor repairs
  * Extensive information material (including tour suggestions,
excursion tips, road maps, useful addresses for motorcyclists)

https://www.adac.de/reise_freizeit/motorrad/motorradfreundliche-gastgeber/qualitaetssiegel/default.aspx
8X---

Those four points should be given if an item is categorized as "yes".

"No" means they don't accept motorcyclists (seldom, but exists).

As there are certainly accommodations
which just don't care about your means of transport,
there is also a third option, which I called "customary",
as this categorization is already in use (for nudism)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nudism#Tagging

So I think the criteria is quite clear and not "opinionated".
In case the description could be improved, please let me know in the
"discussion" :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly#Proposal

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 07.03.2017 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-03-07 10:58 GMT+01:00 Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> "own data, as an overlay" doesn't make sense to me in this case,
> as it's data the community should collect, not the transformation
> of existing data collections
> ("motorcycle friendly" web pages, as they are often randomly
> listing hotels).
> This is the motivation of this tag.
>
>
> one of the basic fundamental rules in OSM is that data should be
> objective and not opinionated. We do not want restaurant reviews (or
> any other personal review) or a generalized way of saying "suitable
> for cyclists" (you can of course map the factors that say why it is
> suitable or not), and a "friendly:*" tag could be misleading in this
> regard. I agree that there are facts that can indicate a friendlyness
> or hostility towards a certain group of people (e.g. motorcyclists,
> hikers, hunters, cyclists, ...), like the signs, so I am not
> absolutely against a tag like this, but the definition should make it
> clear that it is about objective, observable criteria.
>
>  
>
> Didn't understand what you mean with "digest approach" ?
>
>
>
> You can subscribe to the mailing list getting all the messages as soon
> as they are sent, or in a digest way (many messages toge

Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

Hi all,

thanks to Martin for the clarification.

In the discussion of the (former voted) wiki entry :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:motorcycle_friendly

I referred to the definition of the German automobile club :

8X---
The German automobile club has the following criteria :

  * (Theft) safe and secure motorcycle parking areas.
  * Facilities for wet clothes.
  * Tools for minor repairs
  * Extensive information material (including tour suggestions,
excursion tips, road maps, useful addresses for motorcyclists)

https://www.adac.de/reise_freizeit/motorrad/motorradfreundliche-gastgeber/qualitaetssiegel/default.aspx
8X---

Those four points should be given if an item is categorized as "yes".

"No" means they don't accept motorcyclists (seldom, but exists).

As there are certainly accommodations
which just don't care about your means of transport,
there is also a third option, which I called "customary",
as this categorization is already in use (for nudism)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nudism#Tagging

So I think the criteria is quite clear and not "opinionated".
In case the description could be improved, please let me know in the
"discussion" :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly#Proposal

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 07.03.2017 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-03-07 10:58 GMT+01:00 Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>>:
>
> "own data, as an overlay" doesn't make sense to me in this case,
> as it's data the community should collect, not the transformation
> of existing data collections
> ("motorcycle friendly" web pages, as they are often randomly
> listing hotels).
> This is the motivation of this tag.
>
>
> one of the basic fundamental rules in OSM is that data should be
> objective and not opinionated. We do not want restaurant reviews (or
> any other personal review) or a generalized way of saying "suitable
> for cyclists" (you can of course map the factors that say why it is
> suitable or not), and a "friendly:*" tag could be misleading in this
> regard. I agree that there are facts that can indicate a friendlyness
> or hostility towards a certain group of people (e.g. motorcyclists,
> hikers, hunters, cyclists, ...), like the signs, so I am not
> absolutely against a tag like this, but the definition should make it
> clear that it is about objective, observable criteria.
>
>  
>
> Didn't understand what you mean with "digest approach" ?
>
>
>
> You can subscribe to the mailing list getting all the messages as soon
> as they are sent, or in a digest way (many messages together in one
> email) after n messages (I think it's 10 or 15) have been sent to the
> list.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 

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72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

I f I have the choice just to get daily / weekly updates,
that wouldn't even be a problem.

Unless I wonder why a mail program shouldn't be able
to filter messages by Topic.


Am 06.03.2017 um 22:14 schrieb ksg:
>> Am 06.03.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de>:
>>
>>
>> I (accidentally) unsubscribed because of the "spam" coming in,
>> means I didn't get just messages regarding the topic.
>> I assume others will possibly act similar.
>>
> Due to the (anachronistic) nature of a mailing list a subscribed member will 
> get all messages regardless of the topic.
>
> Regards
> geow
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

I agree with Martin,
thanks anyway for your work in the wiki.

Is there someone we could contact to change the mail text ?
(To avoid this happens again to the next)

I (accidentally) unsubscribed because of the "spam" coming in,
means I didn't get just messages regarding the topic.
I assume others will possibly act similar.


Am 06.03.2017 um 18:09 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-03-06 17:46 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <naka...@gmx.net
> <mailto:naka...@gmx.net>>:
>
> Hi Martin and others,
>
> Am 2017-03-06 um 17:37 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> > yes, that wording is unfortunate, because in most/many OSM
> mailing lists
> > messages never get approved. I am myself admin of a very small
> regional ML
> > and from time to time there are periods where a lot of spam
> arrives, I can
> > imagine checking held back messages in the big lists would be a
> lot of work
> > (and mostly consist in rejecting spam). You would also have to
> do it daily,
> > because after some time many messages will seem out of context.
>
> I have changed the wording of the wiki page Proposal_Process today to
> stress the necessity to subscribe the Tagging mailing list. Feel
> free to
> modify/revert it if you don't like it.
>
>
>
> As you name me in person: I was not referring to the wording in the
> wiki but the wording of the mailing list autoresponder message in case
> someone not subscribed sends a message (and from the reply might get
> to the impression that it will pass, which it in fact almost never
> does for any of the OSM lists).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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72764 Reutlingen

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

"Process problems are a pain in the ass. You never, ever want to have
process problems ...
That's when people start getting really angry at each other."
Linus Torvalds


Am 06.03.2017 um 00:08 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
>
> It is possible that the moderator has a backlog of messages, and
> hasn't reviewed it yet.
>
> On March 5, 2017 5:02:26 PM Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> There was an automatic reply, saying :
>>
>> "Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>> [...]
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision."
>>
>> But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't
>> reach the list at all
>> (didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
>> I think the message text should be clarified or the process of
>> checking those mails.
>>
>> Betreff: Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
>> Datum:   Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
>> Von: tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>> An:  th...@gmx.de
>>
>>
>>
>> Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject
>>
>> Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
>> accomodations
>>
>> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>
>> The reason it is being held:
>>
>> Post by non-member to a members-only list
>>
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
>> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>>
>> 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1
>>
>>
>> Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:
>>>
>>> Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that
>>> the author is posting to the list but does not appear to be
>>> receiving messages from it ?
>>>
>>> In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
>>> English perhaps ?
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sent from a phone
>>>>
>>>> On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
>>>> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
>>>> it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
>>>> automatic reply in this case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> Martin 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> Tagging mailing list
>>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Thilo Haug
>> Bismarckstr.37
>> 72764 Reutlingen
>>
>> Mobil: +49 177 3185856
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging%40openstreetmap.org>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 

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72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

That's how it looks like,
but the email should also inform about this possibility.

There should be either a text that it's necessary to resend it when
subscribed to the list
or a possibility (link) to check whether it meanwhile arrived.


Am 06.03.2017 um 00:08 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
>
> It is possible that the moderator has a backlog of messages, and
> hasn't reviewed it yet.
>
> On March 5, 2017 5:02:26 PM Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> There was an automatic reply, saying :
>>
>> "Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>> [...]
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision."
>>
>> But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't
>> reach the list at all
>> (didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
>> I think the message text should be clarified or the process of
>> checking those mails.
>>
>> Betreff: Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
>> Datum:   Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
>> Von: tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>> An:  th...@gmx.de
>>
>>
>>
>> Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject
>>
>> Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
>> accomodations
>>
>> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>>
>> The reason it is being held:
>>
>> Post by non-member to a members-only list
>>
>> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
>> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
>> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>>
>> 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1
>>
>>
>> Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:
>>>
>>> Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that
>>> the author is posting to the list but does not appear to be
>>> receiving messages from it ?
>>>
>>> In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
>>> English perhaps ?
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sent from a phone
>>>>
>>>> On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
>>>> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
>>>> it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
>>>> automatic reply in this case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> Martin 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> Tagging mailing list
>>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Thilo Haug
>> Bismarckstr.37
>> 72764 Reutlingen
>>
>> Mobil: +49 177 3185856
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging%40openstreetmap.org>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 

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72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

There was an automatic reply, saying :

"Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
[...]
Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision."

But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't reach
the list at all
(didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
I think the message text should be clarified or the process of checking
those mails.

Betreff:Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
Datum:  Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
Von:tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
An: th...@gmx.de



Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject

Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

Post by non-member to a members-only list

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1


Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:
>
> Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that the
> author is posting to the list but does not appear to be receiving
> messages from it ?
>
> In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
> English perhaps ?
>
> David
>
>
> On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug <th...@gmx.de
>> <mailto:th...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>
>>> Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html
>>
>>
>> maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
>> it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
>> automatic reply in this case.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin 
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 

Thilo Haug
Bismarckstr.37
72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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[Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff:Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations
Datum:  Tue, 17 Jan 2017 00:46:19 +0100
Von:Thilo 
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org



Hello all,

please vote for this proposal :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly#Voting

In the discussion, there was just one proposal to use
motorcycle=designated instead, but I think most are not "designated".

To keep it simple, I'd just use yes/no

Thanks in advance for your support.

Cheers,
Thilo

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff:Feature Proposal - RFC - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations
Datum:  Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:08:10 +0100
Von:Thilo 
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org



Hello all,

please check this proposal :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly

Cheers,
Thilo

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[Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - RFC - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
Betreff:Feature Proposal - RFC - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations
Datum:  Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:08:10 +0100
Von:Thilo 
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org



Hello all,

please check this proposal :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly

Cheers,
Thilo

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