Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

Please keep in mind that round-trip is in considerable use to describe the
overall geometry of cycling and hiking routes. Don't change the meaning.

On Mon, 23 Dec 2019, 11:09 Peter Elderson,  wrote:

> True! I have seen a few educational or theme routes that way.  In that
> case it's meant to be a roundtrip, or you make a roundtrip using the same
> way back by necessity.
> Regular linear hikes are not meant to be used as roundtrips, though you
> could go back the same way of course.
>
> I would use roundtrip=yes only for routes designed for roundtrips. Which
> can encompass a lot of geographical layouts, even single chain linear
> routes as illustrated by your example. A closed_loop would automatically
> qualify as a roundtrip, I think, but I trust someone will come up with an
> exception!
>
> Fr gr Peter Elderson
>
> Op ma 23 dec. 2019 om 08:52 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > On 22. Dec 2019, at 16:43, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>> >
>> > A linear walking route marked in both directions is not a roundtrip.
>> You're not guided to turn around at the end and return to the start.
>>
>>
>> there are cases where it’s unavoidable, because there is only one way.
>>
>> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

True! I have seen a few educational or theme routes that way.  In that case
it's meant to be a roundtrip, or you make a roundtrip using the same way
back by necessity.
Regular linear hikes are not meant to be used as roundtrips, though you
could go back the same way of course.

I would use roundtrip=yes only for routes designed for roundtrips. Which
can encompass a lot of geographical layouts, even single chain linear
routes as illustrated by your example. A closed_loop would automatically
qualify as a roundtrip, I think, but I trust someone will come up with an
exception!

Fr gr Peter Elderson

Op ma 23 dec. 2019 om 08:52 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com>:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 22. Dec 2019, at 16:43, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> >
> > A linear walking route marked in both directions is not a roundtrip.
> You're not guided to turn around at the end and return to the start.
>
>
> there are cases where it’s unavoidable, because there is only one way.
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 23/12/19 18:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 22. Dec 2019, at 16:43, Peter Elderson  wrote:

A linear walking route marked in both directions is not a roundtrip. You're not 
guided to turn around at the end and return to the start.


there are cases where it’s unavoidable, because there is only one way.


Only one entry/exit ?? roundtrip=compulsory ???

Humm... looks to me like there are too many meanings that people use for this 
tag. I think I'll remove the tag from my contributions.




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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Dec 2019, at 16:43, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> 
> A linear walking route marked in both directions is not a roundtrip. You're 
> not guided to turn around at the end and return to the start.


there are cases where it’s unavoidable, because there is only one way.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

Good point. I would say roundtrip is the service provided. But if a route
is designed for roundtrip service i.e. if you remain seated you end up at
the starting point, roundtrip becomes an attribute of the route. However,
most PT allows you to book or perform a roundtrip. Because even if you get
off and later back on, even on a different vehicle and/or by a different
route, it's still a roundtrip, no matter the layout of the routes.

(Nederand used to have roundtrip tickets, priced at 1 1/2 the cost of two
separate single way tickets. You could get roundtrip tickets ("retours")
valid on one day, or roundtrips with open return day. Now, we pay per
kilometer, so that's history. For now!).

In short, I think circular would be the better term if the route is
"circular". I would not retag, though. I am not a PT-mapper or PT datauser.
But I have to ask: is it absolutely clear what it means if a PT-route is
mapped as a roundtrip? Is this information really used?

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op zo 22 dec. 2019 om 15:34 schreef marc marc :

> 3 240 (10%) objects with rountrip=3 also have public_transport:version=*
> ex https://www.ratp.fr/plans-lignes/noctilien/n01
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1083331
>
> Le 22.12.19 à 11:57, Peter Elderson a écrit :
> > For PT, roundtrip is not an attribute of the route
> >
> >> Op 21 dec. 2019 om 15:31 heeft marc marc het volgende geschreven:
> >>
> >> I always thought that routrip=yes was an alternative when there is no
> >> start and end point to enter in from=* to=* key.
> >> Otherwise circular routes with a known start/end point can enter
> >> as from=A via=B to=A.
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

> 
> If following the route marking you will get back to start... It's a circular 
> route.
> As previously stated you could find marking on both directions and be a 
> single line straight and then reverse.
> With old wiki definition this is Roundtrip=no... Now it is Roundtrip=yes
> Seems sane to me.

A linear walking route marked in both directions is not a roundtrip. You're not 
guided to turn around at the end and return to the start. You are free to do 
that and make your cross-the-alps trail a roundtrip, of course, but I have yet 
to encounter anyone who does that. Could become an Australian hype maybe? :)
So no, I wouldn't expect linear walking routes to get tagged as roundtrip=yes. 
circular is fine too, as long as it can be applied to routes that are not 
strictly circular (closed_loop). Such as having a common approach/exit section, 
crossing itself one or more times, or having a common middle section between 
two loops. This would still qualify as roundtrip to me, because the 'service' 
i.e. the waymarking, brings you back to the start.  bidirectional waymarking 
does not a roundtrip make, it just says you can choose to do the hike in both 
directions.
At the same time, if circular just means the same as roundtrip (for walking 
routes), I would not change current tagging. Lots of work to achieve nothing, 
not my favorite.
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[marc marc]

3 240 (10%) objects with rountrip=3 also have public_transport:version=*
ex https://www.ratp.fr/plans-lignes/noctilien/n01
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1083331

Le 22.12.19 à 11:57, Peter Elderson a écrit :
> For PT, roundtrip is not an attribute of the route
> 
>> Op 21 dec. 2019 om 15:31 heeft marc marc het volgende geschreven:
>>
>> I always thought that routrip=yes was an alternative when there is no
>> start and end point to enter in from=* to=* key.
>> Otherwise circular routes with a known start/end point can enter
>> as from=A via=B to=A.
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il dom 22 dic 2019, 11:59 Peter Elderson  ha scritto:

> For PT, roundtrip is not an attribute of the route, it's a type of ticket
> or it's what you use the transport for. You can do a roundtrip on a
> circular line, but also on non-circular lines or mostly non-circular with a
> loop at the end, whatever. To express that a PT route is circular, I think
> the term circular would be better than roundtrip.
>

Agreed. My intention was to avoid Roundtrip as sinonym of Circular.


> For hiking|foot routes, exception is the rule when it comes to branches,
> alternatives, excursions, approaches and shortcuts. For me roundtrip on a
> walking route relation means: when you keep following the main route
> markings, it takes you back to where you begun. This does not exclude any
> alternatives, such as optional extra loops or a common approach/exit route
> at a starting point.


If following the route marking you will get back to start... It's a
circular route.
As previously stated you could find marking on both directions and be a
single line straight and then reverse.
With old wiki definition this is Roundtrip=no... Now it is Roundtrip=yes
Seems sane to me.

Only roundtrip=yes is needed here, if not present assume it's not a
roundtrip. Note that many trails consist of a number of linear routes,
together making for a roundtrip. I tag roundtrip=yes only on the parent
route relation. Loop or circular would also be just fine, but I see no
reason to change existing tagging here.

Do you mean old definition or the new one?


> Question: who wants to know if a route is a circular route/loop/roundtrip?
> Is it the map user? No, (s)he can see it on the map.


Don't forget OSM is a database.. a new tag that helps to classify things
(without overtagging) can be useful. Can you extract easily all circular or
linear routes with current scheme?


Is it important for routing and navigation? I can't see how, but there are
> experts on this list who know more about this. So far I know of only one
> application: categorisation/filtering of trips in order to present the user
> a choice between roundtrip walks or linear walks. The roundtrips were
> actually meant to be daytrips, and linear walks were to be presented as "
> long distance walks", but a separate category long distance roundtrips
> could be deducted from the data, I guess.
>
> Question: who wants to know if a route is actually a closed loop without
> any branches?
> What do you need this information for?


Personally I would only be interested in the validation part. I already
wrote some rule in JOSM and Osmose... I don't currently plan to fix all
existing routes, but hopefully could help to figure how to do it.


So far, I know one application: if a route is tagged as a closed loop, e.g.
with closed_loop=yes, and it's not complete or interrupted somewhere, you
can detect that with a checking tool. It would be a sort of fixme, then.
Most routes I maintain would not profit from that.

>
>
> FrGr Peter Elderson
>
> > Op 21 dec. 2019 om 15:31 heeft marc marc 
> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > I always thought that routrip=yes was an alternative when there is no
> > start and end point to enter in from=* to=* key.
> > Otherwise circular routes with a known start/end point can enter
> > as from=A via=B to=A.
> > ___
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

For PT, roundtrip is not an attribute of the route, it's a type of ticket or 
it's what you use the transport for. You can do a roundtrip on a circular line, 
but also on non-circular lines or mostly non-circular with a loop at the end, 
whatever. To express that a PT route is circular, I think the term circular 
would be better than roundtrip. 

For hiking|foot routes, exception is the rule when it comes to branches, 
alternatives, excursions, approaches and shortcuts. For me roundtrip on a 
walking route relation means: when you keep following the main route markings, 
it takes you back to where you begun. This does not exclude any alternatives, 
such as optional extra loops or a common approach/exit route at a starting 
point. Only roundtrip=yes is needed here, if not present assume it's not a 
roundtrip. Note that many trails consist of a number of linear routes, together 
making for a roundtrip. I tag roundtrip=yes only on the parent route relation. 
Loop or circular would also be just fine, but I see no reason to change 
existing tagging here.

Question: who wants to know if a route is a circular route/loop/roundtrip? Is 
it the map user? No, (s)he can see it on the map. Is it important for routing 
and navigation? I can't see how, but there are experts on this list who know 
more about this. So far I know of only one application: 
categorisation/filtering of trips in order to present the user a choice between 
roundtrip walks or linear walks. The roundtrips were actually meant to be 
daytrips, and linear walks were to be presented as " long distance walks", but 
a separate category long distance roundtrips could be deducted from the data, I 
guess.

Question: who wants to know if a route is actually a closed loop without any 
branches?
What do you need this information for? So far, I know one application: if a 
route is tagged as a closed loop, e.g. with closed_loop=yes, and it's not 
complete or interrupted somewhere, you can detect that with a checking tool. It 
would be a sort of fixme, then. Most routes I maintain would not profit from 
that. 


FrGr Peter Elderson

> Op 21 dec. 2019 om 15:31 heeft marc marc  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> I always thought that routrip=yes was an alternative when there is no
> start and end point to enter in from=* to=* key.
> Otherwise circular routes with a known start/end point can enter
> as from=A via=B to=A.
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 21/12/19 21:25, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:

And with existing tags how you describe it?


I don't.


Il sab 21 dic 2019, 10:28 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> ha scritto:


On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:

Dear Volker,

I saw that someone went ahead and changed the wiki again:

Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that start and end of a route are
at the same location.

I think this new definition matches your idea of roundtrip and
it's fine for both definitions.
My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag in favour of:

roundtrip:type=linear|circular

Do you agree?


No.

"Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???

As for the values .. you will need to define them!

'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both
directions .. and then separates into a loop where the segments
are only used in one direction.

I could imaging routes that have several loops  used in one
direction and then ways that are used in both directions .. arrr
there is another  route that does that ...

So what values will there be to cover complex cases???



Francesco


Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>> ha scritto:

Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any
other wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is
being used (the wiki is suposed to document the actual use,
not what the use should be) and in particular if there is a
more-than sporadic use of roundtrip=yes|no for anything else
than loop=yes|no.
It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
A fast overpass turbo wizard query
"type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
resulted in
Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
England:  25 lines, all loops.
USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of
all cycle route relations in these countries that have a
roundrip=yes are in fact loops and that that this is the
de-facto use of the tag.
I think this is a strong case against any change.

Taginfo points in the same direction
12665 roundtrip=no
21774 roundtrip=yes
42 closed_loop=yes
no closed_loop=no

Volker







On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli
mailto:franci...@gmail.com>> wrote:

In my opinion the options are:

- deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a
generally agreed naming convention (best at this point)
- keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition
I did change (relations must be updated accordingly)

I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point
out that is not a resolution because tag is currently
messed up

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr
mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com>> ha scritto:

On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:

Merriam Webster and some other resources you have
quoted are dictionary for American English, not the
variant of English used by OSM. Posts by original
author of the topic on the wiki talk page have
explained the meaning of the term in British English.


The OED definitions read as follows:

Originally U.S.
 A. n.
 1.
 a. A journey to a place and back again, along
the same route; (also) a journey to one or more
places and back again which does not cover the
same ground twice, a circular tour or trip.

 b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.

 2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining
and Oil Industry) an act of withdrawing and
replacing a drill pipe.

 3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or
an instance of buying and selling the same stock,
commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf. round
turn n. 4.

 B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.

 1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various
senses). Cf. return n. Compounds 1.

 2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal
and figurative).

 C. adv. Chiefly North 

Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[marc marc]

I always thought that routrip=yes was an alternative when there is no
start and end point to enter in from=* to=* key.
Otherwise circular routes with a known start/end point can enter
as from=A via=B to=A.
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 14:43, Phake Nick  wrote:

> Reminder 1: There are loops within bus route doesn't mean the route is a
> circular or round trip route.
>
Fully agreed. That's why I am saying we need to alok at this with a bit of
calm. There plenty of diferent route toplogies

Reminder 2: The roundtrip=* key is designed to use in combination with
> hiking routes or bicycle routes. A hiking/bicyle route that goes A→B→A
> which come back with the same start point with exact same alignment as the
> other direction doesn't really mean anything so I don't think a special
> value would be needed for such case. As for bus routes, whether or not it
> goes back along same road doesn't really mean anything either.
>

Fully agreed.
We never looked at this and tagged different route types (bus and bicycle
for example) independently folowuìing essentially different topological
approaches.
Bus routes are (always?) tagged as unidirectional routes. The same bus line
that connects A <> B is represented by two bus routes A > B and B > A.
But, by tradition, or whatever reason, a topologically equivalent bicycle
route A <> B is represented by a single, mostly bidirectional route A <> B,
where the few pieces where the A > B route differs from the B > A route
(for example for roundabouts or cycle paths on both sides of a road) are
handled by route segments whose ways are tagged with role=forward|backward
within the relation.

By the way, these loop segments are, at least within the route network in
Italy, tagged with role=forward|backward differently from the definition in
the cycle routes wiki page

(" *Relation role*: Cycle routes sometimes have different paths depending
on the direction you are travelling. In this case, ways in the relation
should have a role of *forward* or *backward* as described in
Relation:route#Members
. The direction
is rendered on the cycle map (example

).")
in the sense that loop sections that are to be followed in the A > B
direction are marked with role=forward  and loop sections that are to be
ridden in the B > A direction are marked with role=backward.
But that is a different story that needs sorting out as well.
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Phake Nick]

Reminder 1: There are loops within bus route doesn't mean the route is a
circular or round trip route.
Reminder 2: The roundtrip=* key is designed to use in combination with
hiking routes or bicycle routes. A hiking/bicyle route that goes A→B→A
which come back with the same start point with exact same alignment as the
other direction doesn't really mean anything so I don't think a special
value would be needed for such case. As for bus routes, whether or not it
goes back along same road doesn't really mean anything either.

在 2019年12月21日週六 17:28，Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> 寫道：

> On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>
> Dear Volker,
>
> I saw that someone went ahead and changed the wiki again:
>
> Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that start and end of a route are at the
> same location.
>
> I think this new definition matches your idea of roundtrip and it's fine
> for both definitions.
> My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag in favour of:
>
> roundtrip:type=linear|circular
>
> Do you agree?
>
>
> No.
>
> "Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???
>
> As for the values .. you will need to define them!
>
> 'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both directions ..
> and then separates into a loop where the segments are only used in one
> direction.
>
> I could imaging routes that have several loops  used in one direction and
> then ways that are used in both directions .. arrr there is another  route
> that does that ...
>
> So what values will there be to cover complex cases???
>
>
> Francesco
>
>
> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>
>> Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
>> wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
>> What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used
>> (the wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should
>> be) and in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of
>> roundtrip=yes|no for anything else than loop=yes|no.
>> It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
>> A fast overpass turbo wizard query
>> "type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
>> Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
>> resulted in
>> Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
>> France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
>> England:  25 lines, all loops.
>> USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
>> Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
>> For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
>> route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
>> loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
>> I think this is a strong case against any change.
>>
>> Taginfo points in the same direction
>> 12665 roundtrip=no
>> 21774 roundtrip=yes
>> 42 closed_loop=yes
>> no closed_loop=no
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion the options are:
>>>
>>> - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
>>> convention (best at this point)
>>> - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
>>> (relations must be updated accordingly)
>>>
>>> I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not
>>> a resolution because tag is currently messed up
>>>
>>> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha
>>> scritto:
>>>
 On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:

 Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
 for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
 original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
 meaning of the term in British English.


 The OED definitions read as follows:

 Originally U.S.
  A. n.
  1.
  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
 journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
 ground twice, a circular tour or trip.

  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.

  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an
 act of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.

  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
 and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
 round turn n. 4.

  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.

  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
 Compounds 1.

  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).

  C. adv. Chiefly North American.

   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.

 Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
 American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.

 --
 Steve
 ___
>>>
>>>
>
> 

Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il sab 21 dic 2019, 12:33 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:

> This is missing the point.
> I only want to point out that apparently roundtrip=yes without any
> additional tagging is being used as meaning "this route is a loop" and
> "round-trip=no" as meaning it's an A-to-b route. This should remain valid.
>

It is.
Well, with latest wiki version:
Roundtrip=yes is A to B (to C?) to A.
Roundtrip=no is A to B (to C?)

And let us consider how to cater for other cases.
>

Sure .. but if you're open to the change..

Any retagging would mean a lot of manual work. I cannot see any simple way
> (leaving out AI) to determine whether any given route is a loop or
> something else.
>


I feel this is the right approach...
We can define how to fix existing routes as soon as we find an eligible
approach


>
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 11:27 Francesco Ansanelli, 
> wrote:
>
>> And with existing tags how you describe it?
>>
>> Il sab 21 dic 2019, 10:28 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>>
>>> On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Volker,
>>>
>>> I saw that someone went ahead and changed the wiki again:
>>>
>>> Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that start and end of a route are at the
>>> same location.
>>>
>>> I think this new definition matches your idea of roundtrip and it's fine
>>> for both definitions.
>>> My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag in favour of:
>>>
>>> roundtrip:type=linear|circular
>>>
>>> Do you agree?
>>>
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> "Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???
>>>
>>> As for the values .. you will need to define them!
>>>
>>> 'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both directions
>>> .. and then separates into a loop where the segments are only used in one
>>> direction.
>>>
>>> I could imaging routes that have several loops  used in one direction
>>> and then ways that are used in both directions .. arrr there is another
>>> route that does that ...
>>>
>>> So what values will there be to cover complex cases???
>>>
>>>
>>> Francesco
>>>
>>>
>>> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>>>
 Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
 wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
 What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used
 (the wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should
 be) and in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of
 roundtrip=yes|no for anything else than loop=yes|no.
 It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
 A fast overpass turbo wizard query
 "type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
 Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
 resulted in
 Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
 France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
 England:  25 lines, all loops.
 USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
 Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
 For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
 route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
 loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
 I think this is a strong case against any change.

 Taginfo points in the same direction
 12665 roundtrip=no
 21774 roundtrip=yes
 42 closed_loop=yes
 no closed_loop=no

 Volker






 On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli 
 wrote:

> In my opinion the options are:
>
> - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed
> naming convention (best at this point)
> - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
> (relations must be updated accordingly)
>
> I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is
> not a resolution because tag is currently messed up
>
> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha
> scritto:
>
>> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>>
>> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are
>> dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM.
>> Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have 
>> explained
>> the meaning of the term in British English.
>>
>>
>> The OED definitions read as follows:
>>
>> Originally U.S.
>>  A. n.
>>  1.
>>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also)
>> a journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the
>> same ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>>
>>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>>
>>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an
>> act of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>>
>>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of
>> buying and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously.
>> 

Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

This is missing the point.
I only want to point out that apparently roundtrip=yes without any
additional tagging is being used as meaning "this route is a loop" and
"round-trip=no" as meaning it's an A-to-b route. This should remain valid.
And let us consider how to cater for other cases.
Any retagging would mean a lot of manual work. I cannot see any simple way
(leaving out AI) to determine whether any given route is a loop or
something else.


On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 11:27 Francesco Ansanelli,  wrote:

> And with existing tags how you describe it?
>
> Il sab 21 dic 2019, 10:28 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>>
>> Dear Volker,
>>
>> I saw that someone went ahead and changed the wiki again:
>>
>> Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that start and end of a route are at the
>> same location.
>>
>> I think this new definition matches your idea of roundtrip and it's fine
>> for both definitions.
>> My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag in favour of:
>>
>> roundtrip:type=linear|circular
>>
>> Do you agree?
>>
>>
>> No.
>>
>> "Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???
>>
>> As for the values .. you will need to define them!
>>
>> 'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both directions
>> .. and then separates into a loop where the segments are only used in one
>> direction.
>>
>> I could imaging routes that have several loops  used in one direction and
>> then ways that are used in both directions .. arrr there is another  route
>> that does that ...
>>
>> So what values will there be to cover complex cases???
>>
>>
>> Francesco
>>
>>
>> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>>
>>> Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
>>> wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
>>> What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used
>>> (the wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should
>>> be) and in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of
>>> roundtrip=yes|no for anything else than loop=yes|no.
>>> It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
>>> A fast overpass turbo wizard query
>>> "type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
>>> Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
>>> resulted in
>>> Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
>>> France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
>>> England:  25 lines, all loops.
>>> USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
>>> Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
>>> For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
>>> route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
>>> loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
>>> I think this is a strong case against any change.
>>>
>>> Taginfo points in the same direction
>>> 12665 roundtrip=no
>>> 21774 roundtrip=yes
>>> 42 closed_loop=yes
>>> no closed_loop=no
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 In my opinion the options are:

 - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed
 naming convention (best at this point)
 - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
 (relations must be updated accordingly)

 I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not
 a resolution because tag is currently messed up

 Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha
 scritto:

> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>
> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are
> dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM.
> Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained
> the meaning of the term in British English.
>
>
> The OED definitions read as follows:
>
> Originally U.S.
>  A. n.
>  1.
>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also)
> a journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the
> same ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>
>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>
>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an
> act of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>
>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of
> buying and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously.
> Cf. round turn n. 4.
>
>  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.
>
>  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
> Compounds 1.
>
>  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).
>
>  C. adv. Chiefly North American.
>
>   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.
>
> Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
> American phrase, 

Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

And with existing tags how you describe it?

Il sab 21 dic 2019, 10:28 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>
> Dear Volker,
>
> I saw that someone went ahead and changed the wiki again:
>
> Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that start and end of a route are at the
> same location.
>
> I think this new definition matches your idea of roundtrip and it's fine
> for both definitions.
> My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag in favour of:
>
> roundtrip:type=linear|circular
>
> Do you agree?
>
>
> No.
>
> "Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???
>
> As for the values .. you will need to define them!
>
> 'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both directions ..
> and then separates into a loop where the segments are only used in one
> direction.
>
> I could imaging routes that have several loops  used in one direction and
> then ways that are used in both directions .. arrr there is another  route
> that does that ...
>
> So what values will there be to cover complex cases???
>
>
> Francesco
>
>
> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>
>> Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
>> wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
>> What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used
>> (the wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should
>> be) and in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of
>> roundtrip=yes|no for anything else than loop=yes|no.
>> It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
>> A fast overpass turbo wizard query
>> "type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
>> Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
>> resulted in
>> Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
>> France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
>> England:  25 lines, all loops.
>> USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
>> Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
>> For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
>> route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
>> loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
>> I think this is a strong case against any change.
>>
>> Taginfo points in the same direction
>> 12665 roundtrip=no
>> 21774 roundtrip=yes
>> 42 closed_loop=yes
>> no closed_loop=no
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion the options are:
>>>
>>> - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
>>> convention (best at this point)
>>> - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
>>> (relations must be updated accordingly)
>>>
>>> I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not
>>> a resolution because tag is currently messed up
>>>
>>> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha
>>> scritto:
>>>
 On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:

 Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
 for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
 original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
 meaning of the term in British English.


 The OED definitions read as follows:

 Originally U.S.
  A. n.
  1.
  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
 journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
 ground twice, a circular tour or trip.

  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.

  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an
 act of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.

  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
 and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
 round turn n. 4.

  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.

  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
 Compounds 1.

  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).

  C. adv. Chiefly North American.

   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.

 Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
 American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.

 --
 Steve
 ___
>>>
>>>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 21/12/19 19:49, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:

Dear Volker,

I saw that someone went ahead and changed the wiki again:

Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that start and end of a route are at the 
same location.


I think this new definition matches your idea of roundtrip and it's 
fine for both definitions.

My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag in favour of:

roundtrip:type=linear|circular

Do you agree?


No.

"Type" means nothing. Perhaps roundtrip:route=*???

As for the values .. you will need to define them!

'My' local bus route starts off with ways that are used both directions 
.. and then separates into a loop where the segments are only used in 
one direction.


I could imaging routes that have several loops  used in one direction 
and then ways that are used in both directions .. arrr there is another  
route that does that ...


So what values will there be to cover complex cases???



Francesco


Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt > ha scritto:


Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being
used (the wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the
use should be) and in particular if there is a more-than sporadic
use of roundtrip=yes|no for anything else than loop=yes|no.
It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
A fast overpass turbo wizard query
"type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
resulted in
Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
England:  25 lines, all loops.
USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all
cycle route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes
are in fact loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
I think this is a strong case against any change.

Taginfo points in the same direction
12665 roundtrip=no
21774 roundtrip=yes
42 closed_loop=yes
no closed_loop=no

Volker







On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli
mailto:franci...@gmail.com>> wrote:

In my opinion the options are:

- deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally
agreed naming convention (best at this point)
- keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I
did change (relations must be updated accordingly)

I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out
that is not a resolution because tag is currently messed up

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com>> ha scritto:

On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:

Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted
are dictionary for American English, not the variant of
English used by OSM. Posts by original author of the
topic on the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of
the term in British English.


The OED definitions read as follows:

Originally U.S.
 A. n.
 1.
 a. A journey to a place and back again, along the
same route; (also) a journey to one or more places and
back again which does not cover the same ground twice,
a circular tour or trip.

 b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.

 2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and
Oil Industry) an act of withdrawing and replacing a
drill pipe.

 3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an
instance of buying and selling the same stock,
commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf. round turn
n. 4.

 B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.

 1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various
senses). Cf. return n. Compounds 1.

 2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and
figurative).

 C. adv. Chiefly North American.

  As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back
again.

Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North
American'. It's an American phrase, though now widely
adopted in the UK.

-- 
Steve

___




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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Dear Volker,

I saw that someone went ahead and changed the wiki again:

Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that start and end of a route are at the same
location.

I think this new definition matches your idea of roundtrip and it's fine
for both definitions.
My last offer is to abandon the closed_loop tag in favour of:

roundtrip:type=linear|circular

Do you agree?
Francesco


Il ven 20 dic 2019, 22:45 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:

> Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
> wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
> What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used (the
> wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should be) and
> in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of roundtrip=yes|no for
> anything else than loop=yes|no.
> It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
> A fast overpass turbo wizard query
> "type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
> Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
> resulted in
> Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
> France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
> England:  25 lines, all loops.
> USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
> Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
> For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
> route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
> loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
> I think this is a strong case against any change.
>
> Taginfo points in the same direction
> 12665 roundtrip=no
> 21774 roundtrip=yes
> 42 closed_loop=yes
> no closed_loop=no
>
> Volker
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli 
> wrote:
>
>> In my opinion the options are:
>>
>> - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
>> convention (best at this point)
>> - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
>> (relations must be updated accordingly)
>>
>> I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not a
>> resolution because tag is currently messed up
>>
>> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha
>> scritto:
>>
>>> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>>>
>>> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
>>> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
>>> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
>>> meaning of the term in British English.
>>>
>>>
>>> The OED definitions read as follows:
>>>
>>> Originally U.S.
>>>  A. n.
>>>  1.
>>>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
>>> journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
>>> ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>>>
>>>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>>>
>>>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an
>>> act of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>>>
>>>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
>>> and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
>>> round turn n. 4.
>>>
>>>  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.
>>>
>>>  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
>>> Compounds 1.
>>>
>>>  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).
>>>
>>>  C. adv. Chiefly North American.
>>>
>>>   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.
>>>
>>> Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
>>> American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used (the
wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should be) and
in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of roundtrip=yes|no for
anything else than loop=yes|no.
It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
A fast overpass turbo wizard query
"type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
resulted in
Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
England:  25 lines, all loops.
USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
I think this is a strong case against any change.

Taginfo points in the same direction
12665 roundtrip=no
21774 roundtrip=yes
42 closed_loop=yes
no closed_loop=no

Volker






On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli 
wrote:

> In my opinion the options are:
>
> - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
> convention (best at this point)
> - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
> (relations must be updated accordingly)
>
> I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not a
> resolution because tag is currently messed up
>
> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha
> scritto:
>
>> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>>
>> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
>> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
>> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
>> meaning of the term in British English.
>>
>>
>> The OED definitions read as follows:
>>
>> Originally U.S.
>>  A. n.
>>  1.
>>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
>> journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
>> ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>>
>>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>>
>>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an act
>> of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>>
>>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
>> and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
>> round turn n. 4.
>>
>>  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.
>>
>>  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
>> Compounds 1.
>>
>>  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).
>>
>>  C. adv. Chiefly North American.
>>
>>   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.
>>
>> Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
>> American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

In my opinion the options are:

- deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
convention (best at this point)
- keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
(relations must be updated accordingly)

I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not a
resolution because tag is currently messed up

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha scritto:

> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>
> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
> meaning of the term in British English.
>
>
> The OED definitions read as follows:
>
> Originally U.S.
>  A. n.
>  1.
>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
> journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
> ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>
>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>
>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an act
> of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>
>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
> and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
> round turn n. 4.
>
>  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.
>
>  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
> Compounds 1.
>
>  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).
>
>  C. adv. Chiefly North American.
>
>   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.
>
> Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
> American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.
>
> --
> Steve
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Steve Doerr]

On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are 
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by 
OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have 
explained the meaning of the term in British English.


The OED definitions read as follows:

   Originally U.S.
 A. n.
 1.
 a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route;
   (also) a journey to one or more places and back again which does not
   cover the same ground twice, a circular tour or trip.

 b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.

 2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry)
   an act of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.

 3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of
   buying and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often
   simultaneously. Cf. round turn n. 4.

 B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.

 1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return
   n. Compounds 1.

 2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).

 C. adv. Chiefly North American.

  As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.

Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an 
American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.


--
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 17:18, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:



Il ven 20 dic 2019, 01:16 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> ha scritto:


On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:


I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty
years. A trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully
reversed route or an alternative route, would could be described
as a round trip. There is certainly no element of a curved or
looping route required to make it a round trip.



Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular
route. Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.


HTH

Chris

-- 
cheers

Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:

Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used
by OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk
page have explained the meaning of the term in British English.

在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli
mailto:franci...@gmail.com>> 寫道：



Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> ha scritto:

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the
closed loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>

The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip'
could be a circular


I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip


Definition of /round trip/

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route



Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English):
a journey to a place and back again

Nothing about 'over the same route'.


But also not the circular word...



https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the
same route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip


round trip

noun

A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the
same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the
same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such
your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.

Revert your change.


How about a voting?



You may have done that before your change.


Sorry for being "rude"... When in Rome...


As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use
the same route to return to the same place compared to those
routes that return to the same place by a different route or at
least sections are different.
At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this
information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM?


I think a tag may enforce it



So all the existing round trips will have to be deleted or re-tagged 
with something else .. as they may not meet this definition. I know the 
route I have tagged round trip doers not, so to avoid incorrect data 
they will all have to be deleted.
All the past editors who have learnt the old definition will probably 
continue to use it from the old definition - meaning errors will be 
constantly introduced.

The editors may have top be rejigged too.


Is there a need to add this information?



By that I mean renders may determine it for themselves using the OSM 
data? If so then this tag is of no real use.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop

A bus that goes from A to B and returns 'using the same route' will have 
to turn around .. and that turning will not be using the same route .. 
so it does not meet a strict definition of 'using the same route'.


There are too many problems introduced by this new definition of roundtrip.

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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 01:16 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:
>
> I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty years. A trip
> from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully reversed route or an
> alternative route, would could be described as a round trip. There is
> certainly no element of a curved or looping route required to make it a
> round trip.
>
>
> Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular route.
> Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.
>
> HTH
>
> Chris
>
> --
> cheers
> Chris Hill (chillly)
>
> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>
> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
> meaning of the term in British English.
>
> 在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：
>
>>
>>
>> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>>
>>> On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>>> > Dear List,
>>> >
>>> > I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
>>> > in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>>> >
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>>> >
>>> > Please let me know what you think
>>> >
>>>
>>> The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular
>>>
>>
>> I'm not a mother tongue but:
>>
>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip
>> Definition of *round trip*
>> : a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
>>
>
> Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a
> journey to a place and back again
>
> Nothing about 'over the same route'.
>

But also not the circular word...

>
>
> https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip
>>
>>
>> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
>> https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip
>>
>> round trip
>>
>> noun
>> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
>> Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.
>>
>> route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
>>> could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
>>> wrong and does not match present use.
>>>
>>> Revert your change.
>>>
>>
>> How about a voting?
>>
>
> You may have done that before your change.
>

Sorry for being "rude"... When in Rome...


> As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use the
> same route to return to the same place compared to those routes that return
> to the same place by a different route or at least sections are different.
> At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this
> information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM?
>

I think a tag may enforce it

Is there a need to add this information?
>

If you split a segment in future a validator may say route with
closed_loop=yes not a loop...
A Roundtrip could be simply tagged and mapped in one direction in my opinion


>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 04:21 Graeme Fitzpatrick  ha
scritto:

>
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
>>
>
> Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly
> 13 k down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but
> have to come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I
> may well come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes
> longer time), but it's still a "round trip"
>
> Also, what is the definition of "same way"?
>

I think that if your return change some way (how about a one way in
departure? You may not do the same segment literally) but it's almost the
same route, it's completely different from a loop...


> I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the
> northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that
> the "same"?
>
>   Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

I think roundtrip is not about the route taken, but about the transport taking 
you somewhere, you do your thing there, then transport back to where you 
started. It's more like a service kind of thing. I don't use it when the 
relation shows exactly what the route is. I only find it useful to indicate 
that a route should be regarded as a roundtrip, even though the relation 
contains branches, excursions or shortcuts.

For hiking, a hiking route A to B waymarked in two directions is not a 
roundtrip. A hiking route ending where you started when you follow one 
direction all the time, may be seen as a roundtrip, because the 'transport' 
takes you back to back to to starting point. 

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 20 dec. 2019 om 04:21 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
> 
> Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly 13 k 
> down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but have to 
> come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I may well 
> come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes longer 
> time), but it's still a "round trip"
> 
> Also, what is the definition of "same way"? 
> 
> I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the 
> northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that the 
> "same"?
> 
>   Thanks
> 
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
>

Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly 13
k down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but have
to come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I may
well come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes
longer time), but it's still a "round trip"

Also, what is the definition of "same way"?

I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the
northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that
the "same"?

  Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 11:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 20. Dec 2019, at 01:16, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a journey to 
a place and back again


it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.


Why does it make it likely? I don't see it.

I think I have only used it on a public transport route.

In any event .. these properties could be determined using the ways that make 
up the route. So why is it necessary to tag it?
Is work being made for mappers that can be easily determined by the renders?



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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2019, at 01:16, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a journey 
> to a place and back again


it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way. The word 
“Rundweg” which apparently was the concept that should have been defined (IIRC 
our former discussions about this topic) would not correctly be translated as 
roundtrip, despite the similar wording. Closed loop would have my support 
(although I also agree that it should generally be in the geometry of the 
route, personally I would not bother adding a special property for it, also 
because I am less interested in official start and end points or “checkpoints” 
in the middle)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:


I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty years. A 
trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully reversed route 
or an alternative route, would could be described as a round trip. 
There is certainly no element of a curved or looping route required to 
make it a round trip.




Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular 
route. Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.


HTH

Chris

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are 
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by 
OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have 
explained the meaning of the term in British English.


在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli > 寫道：




Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> ha scritto:

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed
loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>

The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be
a circular


I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip


Definition of /round trip/

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route



Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a 
journey to a place and back again


Nothing about 'over the same route'.


https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip


round trip

noun

A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the same
route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your
rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.

Revert your change.


How about a voting?



You may have done that before your change.

As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use the 
same route to return to the same place compared to those routes that 
return to the same place by a different route or at least sections are 
different.
At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this 
information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM? Is 
there a need to add this information?




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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Chris Hill]

I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty years. A 
trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully reversed route or 
an alternative route, would could be described as a round trip. There is 
certainly no element of a curved or looping route required to make it a 
round trip.


HTH

Chris

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are 
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by 
OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have 
explained the meaning of the term in British English.


在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli > 寫道：




Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> ha scritto:

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed
loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>

The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a
circular


I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip


Definition of /round trip/

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip


round trip

noun

A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the same
route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your
rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.

Revert your change.


How about a voting?


If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back
along the
same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.



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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Phake Nick]

Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary for
American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by original
author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of the
term in British English.

在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：

>
>
> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> > I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
>> > in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>> >
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>> >
>> > Please let me know what you think
>> >
>>
>> The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular
>>
>
> I'm not a mother tongue but:
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip
> Definition of *round trip*
>
> : a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
> https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip
>
>
> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
> https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip
>
> round trip
>
> noun
> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
> Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.
>
> route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
>> could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
>> wrong and does not match present use.
>>
>> Revert your change.
>>
>
> How about a voting?
>
>
>> If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back along the
>> same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> > Dear List,
> >
> > I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
> > in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
> >
> > Please let me know what you think
> >
>
> The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular
>

I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip
Definition of *round trip*

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip

round trip

noun
A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
> could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
> wrong and does not match present use.
>
> Revert your change.
>

How about a voting?


> If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back along the
> same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:

Dear List,

I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal 
in order to address the misuse of the first tag:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes

Please let me know what you think



The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular 
route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it 
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is 
wrong and does not match present use.


Revert your change.

If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back along the 
same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.


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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

If a route ends where it begins, it's a roundtrip, but you don't need to tag 
that because it's in the relation. The only thing I find useful is tagging 
roundtrip=yes when the route is not a true closed loop, but still catalogues 
for hikers as a roundtrip, even though it may have branches and shortcuts.

For automated checks closed_loop=yes might come in handy. If the tag is there 
but the route is not a true closed loop, it needs maintenance in OSM.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 19 dec. 2019 om 22:40 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 19. Dec 2019, at 22:16, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> 
>> you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a 
>> loop to exluding it.
> 
> it may be too early to change definitions, but previous discussions have 
> shown that there was confusion about the roundtrip tag also before, and the 
> definition that start and end of the route have to be the same is also 
> satisfied with actual roundtrips (A-B and back).
> IMHO we should discourage the roundtrip tag altogether and establish 
> alternative tags for the cases that should be covered (loops and back and 
> forth or oneway) if they are required.
> 
> Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2019, at 22:16, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a 
> loop to exluding it.

it may be too early to change definitions, but previous discussions have shown 
that there was confusion about the roundtrip tag also before, and the 
definition that start and end of the route have to be the same is also 
satisfied with actual roundtrips (A-B and back).
IMHO we should discourage the roundtrip tag altogether and establish 
alternative tags for the cases that should be covered (loops and back and forth 
or oneway) if they are required.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 21:45, Francesco Ansanelli 
wrote:

>
>
> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 21:28 Phake Nick  ha scritto:
>
>> The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start
>> and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris
>> to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes.
>> You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no.
>> A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the
>> wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage
>> in the osm database.
>>
>
> The question is, current tagging respect original author intention?
> Unlucky Roundtrip change meaning between American and British English
> afaict.
> I've discussed also with another mapper and we agreed to fix wiki in order
> to avoid further misunderstandings.
>
>
>
>> 在 2019年12月20日週五 01:21，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：
>>
>>> Dear Volker,
>>>
>>> I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify
>>> it.
>>> Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
>>> Please check this discussion:
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop
>>>
>> Francesco,
you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a
loop to exluding it. And I am aware of a number of (cycling) routes that
are loops and that are tagged with roundtrip=yes accordng to the previous
version of the wiki.
Please revert the wiki.

Furthermore with your new defintion practially or at least many cycle
routes are roundrip routes even though everyone would consdere them as
linear routes. Nearly all "linear" bicycle routes to which I contributed
can be ridden as roundtrip in the sense that they are signposted in both
directions, and care has been taken in those sections where the forward and
the backward route are different by using the foreward|backward roles. The
(fewer) routes with loop geometry as well can be ridden in either
direction.

Volker


>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Francesco
>>>
>>>
>>> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>>>
 Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.

 Please do not change the meaning of an established tag.
 roundtrip=yes|no is used about 34k times, based on a different definition,
 see
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations

 Volker

 On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
 wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>
> Many thanks
> Best regards
> Francesco
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 ___
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il gio 19 dic 2019, 21:28 Phake Nick  ha scritto:

> The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start
> and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris
> to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes.
> You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no.
> A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the
> wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage
> in the osm database.
>

The question is, current tagging respect original author intention? Unlucky
Roundtrip change meaning between American and British English afaict.
I've discussed also with another mapper and we agreed to fix wiki in order
to avoid further misunderstandings.



> 在 2019年12月20日週五 01:21，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：
>
>> Dear Volker,
>>
>> I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify
>> it.
>> Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
>> Please check this discussion:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop
>>
>> Cheers
>> Francesco
>>
>>
>> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>>
>>> Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.
>>>
>>> Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no
>>> is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Dear List,

 I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
 in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes

 Please let me know what you think

 Many thanks
 Best regards
 Francesco
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Phake Nick]

The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start
and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris
to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes.
You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no.
A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the
wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage
in the osm database.

在 2019年12月20日週五 01:21，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：

> Dear Volker,
>
> I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify it.
> Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
> Please check this discussion:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop
>
> Cheers
> Francesco
>
>
> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>
>> Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.
>>
>> Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no
>> is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
>>> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>>>
>>> Please let me know what you think
>>>
>>> Many thanks
>>> Best regards
>>> Francesco
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Dear Volker,

I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify it.
Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
Please check this discussion:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop

Cheers
Francesco


Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:

> Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.
>
> Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no
> is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations
>
> Volker
>
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in
>> order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>>
>> Please let me know what you think
>>
>> Many thanks
>> Best regards
>> Francesco
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.

Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no is
used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations

Volker

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in
> order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>
> Many thanks
> Best regards
> Francesco
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[Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Dear List,

I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in
order to address the misuse of the first tag:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes

Please let me know what you think

Many thanks
Best regards
Francesco
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