Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I agree with both David Karr and Eric Lewis: The future is the MVC paradigm (have you seen struts+tiles working??), but I think it's almost impossible to remove absolutly all the java code from the jsp. About WYSIWYG editors, I took a look about a year ago on how to make your own tags on Dreamweaver, and it wasn't much complex, and (although most of us are java programmers) have you take a look on what dreamweaver does with php or coldfusion (real-time quering the BD, while designing), although the generated code is muuch dirtier than the one generated with JSTL I think the future will be a mixture between MVC, JSTL(more fmt,c tags, than sql or xml ones, because the last ones will be carried out within the BL (Struts Actions that call EJBs?)), and tools like Dreamweaver, with ad-hoc tags. Regards Pablo (a.k.a. Locale.SPANISH) -a Original Message - From: Renick, Garrel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tag Libraries Users List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs Pierre, If I were managing the group, my decision would be based on the abilities of Philippe (page designer) and Mike (the server-side engineer). If the page designer was part of the team and had an interest in the technology, I would try to get him to embrace JSTL and go for it. Have him spend some time with the engineer and prototype the site; perhaps determine where they need each other's help. I don't think it would be much of a stretch if the page designer has some experience with basic programming principles and is willing to read and experiment (and stuggle at times). In the end, the whole team will be better off since Phillipe might be able to complete some of those easy requests while Mike is away designing back-end systems and business logic. If Mike the engineer has an attitude and doesn't want to help Phillipe when he gets stuck, or Phillipe prefers Photoshop to working with a webapp, forget it and let Mike integrate the dynamic work into Phillipe's static designs. Regards, Garrel Renick -Original Message- From: Pierre Delisle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs Renick, Garrel wrote: This is an interesting topic, and people obviously have strong opinions about successes and failures at using this technology within their work environments. My viewpoint is that JSTL provides a nice set of features that most page designers with some programming experience will be able to use, especially if they spend the time to learn about the web application environment (request/response, scope, etc.) and get a good reference like Manning's JSTL in Action. Many work environments need web applications for simple tasks of presenting dynamic data, and JSTL is perfect for that. As the designers become more familiar with the technology, they can move on to more sophisticated projects that use frameworks such as Struts. I think part of the problem with this discussion is the notion that team members fit nicely in roles such as developer, page designer, and graphics artist. Jeez, the original poster even differentiated himself (the 'developer') from programmers and that distinction baffles me. I would guess that few shops have staff that fit so nicely into these roles, but instead there is a blending of disciplines and each staff member has one or more specialties. I have programming experience in other languages and web design experience, but I don't have the entire Java API under my belt (yet). For people like me that constantly deal with the view aspect of a project but also have some programming experience, JSTL offers a nice standards-based middle-ground where I can contribute. Conversely, if I was a pure graphics artist without programming experience, then I would have no interest in learning JSTL, even if it does look like HTML, and you'd be a fool to think that voila!, I could instantly understand the techniques for using JSTL to accomplish some tasks. However, what would be, in your opinion, the best approach in a situation where a company requires a Philippe (graphics-artist/page-designer) to design a dynamic web site that is appealing and easy to use? Something, Mike, the server-side engineer is definitely not qualified to do even though he can crank html very quickly (we're talking usability here ;-) How much of a stretch is it to get Philippe (assuming typical knowledge of JavaScript a designer would have) to use JSTL so he can have full control over the pages of the website? Or is it simply easier to just forget about training Philippe, and have Mike integrate the dynamic portions with the static designs of Philippe, and go back and forth between the two. Is it a tool issue? Just curious... Trying to get as many data points as possible... -- Pierre
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Well, I can give you my 2¢ worth :-) (It might get long, though...) Our environment is a self-written Content Management System called XOBIX (you can see it in action at http://www.swissinfo.org). It used to be Server-Side JavaScript (no MVC for miles ahead...), then we switched to Java. While the original developer started creating his own templating tools, I strongly voted for Custom Tags and when I found out about JSTL, I thought: Why re-invent the wheel? It does everything we need!. Frankly, JSTL has more than enough functionality to create your standard dynamic web page. Ok, forms are another matter (we're interested in Struts right now), but then I don't think that web designers should mess around with forms a lot. I set out to convince my co-workers, and I think I succeeded :-) The beautiful thing about JSTL is that it provides you with all a normal web designer needs, a lot of people (I hope!) are using it, you can read articles and books and stuff - it's a community. So how are things done here? Usually, the graphic artist creates a mockup of a page. Then everybody hates him, because it's impossible to do ;-) No, seriously, if everyone is ok with that, the web designers translate that into HTML. This is validated with CSE HTML Validator. Afterwards, HTML parts that can be isolated and included are identified (e.g. the navigation). The same goes for blocks that are dynamic. Frankly, if a web designer doesn't understand that, he won't understand Server-Side Includes, he won't understand forms or JavaScript either, and developers will have a hard time with him ;-) With that done, styles are identified, and a corresponding (hopefully well-documented) CSS is written by the web designers. It's our policy to use MVC in HTML as well - instead of using b (which is a View), we use strong (which is a Model, or rather a content-specific tag), so the View part is handled by the CSS. Then the web designers start creating a JSP for every dynamic block, relying on the objects that the developers give them. These objects (actually, they're wrappers) are documented with Javadoc - the nice thing is that we rely a lot on objects containing other objects. Let's take a story object... this contains image objects, which in turn contain file objects, which in turn contain image objects that show the icon for that file. But the interface to the image in the story and the image as file icon is of course the same. So it's a case of learn once, use everywhere. Naturally, we developers must be very careful not to break the interface. We're not yet in MVC heaven, because the web designers need our help from time to time. But it's much, much better than having to mess around with JSPs ourselves. Don't get me wrong, I design web sites myself and I use JSTL as well, but as a developer, it's not my primary task. If the documentation is good, the web designers can work for themselves, they don't have to rely as much on developers (and I think that programmers can be a pain sometimes...), and everybody's happy. Also, sometimes two web designers create the same kind of JSP (e.g. an image gallery). If I notice, I suggest (and mostly write) a common JSP file that can be used with c:import, with parameters (e.g. c:param var=imageStyle value=greenBorder/) to influence how it's shown. Thus, the web site gets much more modular and manageable. Anyway, I sent around your mail, and hopefully we'll get a couple of ideas together for JSTL.next. Best regards, Eric -Original Message- From: Pierre Delisle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 21:27 To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs This is an interesting discussion. As the spec lead for JSTL, I'm always interested in hearing about the practical experiences people have with the technology. Lyndon mentioned the following: Nonetheless I dont see the average web designer using jstl. Maybe jstl 2.0 will offer easier integration. Actually, much of what is discussed on this alias and developed on jakarta-taglibs influences the direction taken by JSTL. Never underestimate the power of your comments! JSTL.next will pretty much be the reflection of the needs expressed by the community. The JSR-052 (JSTL) expert group will be wrapping a maintenance release shortly (JSTL 1.1 -- some fixes + synchonize with JSP 2.0). This will eventually be followed by the formation of a new JSR to tackle JSTL.next. I was going to ask for community input in a month or so, but since we're already pretty much in the heart of it with this discussion, I'd encourage anyone to voice their opinion on what the priorities should be for JSTL.next. Also, I'd be very interested in hearing about the type of environment you work in for the development of dynamic web applications. That should help us understand as a community the usage profiles and their bias :-) Thanks, -- Pierre
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Pierre Delisle wrote: Also, I'd be very interested in hearing about the type of environment you work in for the development of dynamic web applications. That should help us understand as a community the usage profiles and their bias :-) Thanks, -- Pierre All of the discussion so far on this topic has made the assumption that those using this technology are part of a development team. A team that may include graphic designers, web designers, programmers, dba's, and architects where design concepts like MVC can be implemented. This assumption holds up for the most part for businesses which use this technology for web enabling the enterprise. For our own inhouse development we follow this model also, although our team is very small (3-4 people), and most of the team can fulfill multiple roles. My organization provides email and web site hosting for non profit organizations and schools. The types of organizations which can't afford to hire a development team or hire expensive consultants to design complex applications. But these customers often have a need to add some sort of simple dynamic content to their web sites. Generally those who maintain these web sites are not programmers. A better term to describe them would be page authors. Technologies such as JSP pages with custom tags, especially the Standard Taglib, can lower the technology barrier to a point where some adventurous page authors can invest the time to learn enough about these technologies to create simple applications which adds dynamic content to their web site. Regards, Glenn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
From past experience there are alot of people who like the cold fusion style of page authoring. If you've ever looked at cold fusion tags and page syntax, JSTL is very similar. Even though tag like syntax has been around for a while, many people are still unconfortable with them. There's several reasons for this from personal experience. Page authors who use WYSIWYG editors and don't understand the difference between p and div abhore looking at tags. You don't want these people working on pages anyway. On the otherhand, experience HTML coders who write html by hand find it a nice environment that allows them to do some simple markup logic w/o learning java. I had to train junior developer in the past that primarily used WYSIWYG editors. Once they got used to hand coding html, using tag was preferable to writing java. Power comes a cost of learning, so if people find their page authors are unwilling to put forth the effort, then there's not much you can do. I won't mention companies, but there are other BIG players that are moving towards tag syntax in their product line for webservices. peter --- Glenn Nielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pierre Delisle wrote: Also, I'd be very interested in hearing about the type of environment you work in for the development of dynamic web applications. That should help us understand as a community the usage profiles and their bias :-) Thanks, -- Pierre All of the discussion so far on this topic has made the assumption that those using this technology are part of a development team. A team that may include graphic designers, web designers, programmers, dba's, and architects where design concepts like MVC can be implemented. This assumption holds up for the most part for businesses which use this technology for web enabling the enterprise. For our own inhouse development we follow this model also, although our team is very small (3-4 people), and most of the team can fulfill multiple roles. My organization provides email and web site hosting for non profit organizations and schools. The types of organizations which can't afford to hire a development team or hire expensive consultants to design complex applications. But these customers often have a need to add some sort of simple dynamic content to their web sites. Generally those who maintain these web sites are not programmers. A better term to describe them would be page authors. Technologies such as JSP pages with custom tags, especially the Standard Taglib, can lower the technology barrier to a point where some adventurous page authors can invest the time to learn enough about these technologies to create simple applications which adds dynamic content to their web site. Regards, Glenn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
This is a very interesting discussion , at this point I would like to join this discussion and express my concerns and opinions. I am basically a Java programmer, using struts for our software development. Even though I am right now doing both design work using JSTL-EL and development I can't really make the web pages beautiful. I don't use any IDE or any tools though for any of the stuff. So we may have a designer soon and the concern is that most designers I think will not have knowledge of JSTL .I don't know how difficult it is to make the designer knowledgeable about JSTL tags ,Java Objects or Java beans and even if we may allow the designer to do the web page design using some tool like dreamweaver , still there be lot of burden upon the programmer to embed the JSTL-EL tags into the JSP pages. It also requires the developer to use a tool such as Dreamweaver to edit the web designer's code,which may cause some discrepancies in the design(this might not be true,just my guess). But I still think that JSTL-EL is the way to go as it really helps define a view logic (user interface)without any scriplets. Vinay - Original Message - From: Peter Lin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tag Libraries Users List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:03 AM Subject: Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs From past experience there are alot of people who like the cold fusion style of page authoring. If you've ever looked at cold fusion tags and page syntax, JSTL is very similar. Even though tag like syntax has been around for a while, many people are still unconfortable with them. There's several reasons for this from personal experience. Page authors who use WYSIWYG editors and don't understand the difference between p and div abhore looking at tags. You don't want these people working on pages anyway. On the otherhand, experience HTML coders who write html by hand find it a nice environment that allows them to do some simple markup logic w/o learning java. I had to train junior developer in the past that primarily used WYSIWYG editors. Once they got used to hand coding html, using tag was preferable to writing java. Power comes a cost of learning, so if people find their page authors are unwilling to put forth the effort, then there's not much you can do. I won't mention companies, but there are other BIG players that are moving towards tag syntax in their product line for webservices. peter --- Glenn Nielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pierre Delisle wrote: Also, I'd be very interested in hearing about the type of environment you work in for the development of dynamic web applications. That should help us understand as a community the usage profiles and their bias :-) Thanks, -- Pierre All of the discussion so far on this topic has made the assumption that those using this technology are part of a development team. A team that may include graphic designers, web designers, programmers, dba's, and architects where design concepts like MVC can be implemented. This assumption holds up for the most part for businesses which use this technology for web enabling the enterprise. For our own inhouse development we follow this model also, although our team is very small (3-4 people), and most of the team can fulfill multiple roles. My organization provides email and web site hosting for non profit organizations and schools. The types of organizations which can't afford to hire a development team or hire expensive consultants to design complex applications. But these customers often have a need to add some sort of simple dynamic content to their web sites. Generally those who maintain these web sites are not programmers. A better term to describe them would be page authors. Technologies such as JSP pages with custom tags, especially the Standard Taglib, can lower the technology barrier to a point where some adventurous page authors can invest the time to learn enough about these technologies to create simple applications which adds dynamic content to their web site. Regards, Glenn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I know designers that don't like to LOOK at html code... imagine lern JSTL, Struts tags, etc... If I was a designer and knew about all this I would probably be a good and expensive one :-) On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 14:57, Vinay wrote: This is a very interesting discussion , at this point I would like to join this discussion and express my concerns and opinions. I am basically a Java programmer, using struts for our software development. Even though I am right now doing both design work using JSTL-EL and development I can't really make the web pages beautiful. I don't use any IDE or any tools though for any of the stuff. So we may have a designer soon and the concern is that most designers I think will not have knowledge of JSTL .I don't know how difficult it is to make the designer knowledgeable about JSTL tags ,Java Objects or Java beans and even if we may allow the designer to do the web page design using some tool like dreamweaver , still there be lot of burden upon the programmer to embed the JSTL-EL tags into the JSP pages. It also requires the developer to use a tool such as Dreamweaver to edit the web designer's code,which may cause some discrepancies in the design(this might not be true,just my guess). But I still think that JSTL-EL is the way to go as it really helps define a view logic (user interface)without any scriplets. Vinay - Original Message - From: Peter Lin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tag Libraries Users List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:03 AM Subject: Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs From past experience there are alot of people who like the cold fusion style of page authoring. If you've ever looked at cold fusion tags and page syntax, JSTL is very similar. Even though tag like syntax has been around for a while, many people are still unconfortable with them. There's several reasons for this from personal experience. Page authors who use WYSIWYG editors and don't understand the difference between p and div abhore looking at tags. You don't want these people working on pages anyway. On the otherhand, experience HTML coders who write html by hand find it a nice environment that allows them to do some simple markup logic w/o learning java. I had to train junior developer in the past that primarily used WYSIWYG editors. Once they got used to hand coding html, using tag was preferable to writing java. Power comes a cost of learning, so if people find their page authors are unwilling to put forth the effort, then there's not much you can do. I won't mention companies, but there are other BIG players that are moving towards tag syntax in their product line for webservices. peter --- Glenn Nielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pierre Delisle wrote: Also, I'd be very interested in hearing about the type of environment you work in for the development of dynamic web applications. That should help us understand as a community the usage profiles and their bias :-) Thanks, -- Pierre All of the discussion so far on this topic has made the assumption that those using this technology are part of a development team. A team that may include graphic designers, web designers, programmers, dba's, and architects where design concepts like MVC can be implemented. This assumption holds up for the most part for businesses which use this technology for web enabling the enterprise. For our own inhouse development we follow this model also, although our team is very small (3-4 people), and most of the team can fulfill multiple roles. My organization provides email and web site hosting for non profit organizations and schools. The types of organizations which can't afford to hire a development team or hire expensive consultants to design complex applications. But these customers often have a need to add some sort of simple dynamic content to their web sites. Generally those who maintain these web sites are not programmers. A better term to describe them would be page authors. Technologies such as JSP pages with custom tags, especially the Standard Taglib, can lower the technology barrier to a point where some adventurous page authors can invest the time to learn enough about these technologies to create simple applications which adds dynamic content to their web site. Regards, Glenn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Here is an example off the top of my head. It will be grossly over generalized, but it is still useful. Asssuming you have three individuals with specialized duties: 1. page designer - ie the graphics guy who makes things look great 2. html coder - knows every nook and cranny of browsers, what renders, what breaks and how to get around it. doesn't care to know Java or other OOP languages 3. developer In past jobs, good designers will know some HTML. The best page designers know HTML pretty well. Pure graphic designer tend to do a terrible job and their designs don't translate well. The likelihood of finding an awesome designer that doesn't know a lick of html, but can create great webpages is unlikely. The html coders I've worked with like tag syntax and are fine with javascript, so jstl is fine for them. Some of the best HTML coders are decent graphic designers. Unfortunately not all companies can afford to have these specialized individuals, so if you're in that situation, buy the person a book and spend a couple hours a week during lunch to cross train. JSTL and tags in general are designed to solve a human problem, but it's half the picture. You still have to work hard to make development work smoothly. Shawn Bayern's book JSTL in action is a good book, so new designers should consider getting the book. When ever I have to work with people who don't know HTML or javascripting, I create a blank template with just the title and a marker for where logic goes. Like !-- list results here, don't touch-- and walk through it with the designer. That allows the page designer to work around that, which allows you to keep working and plugin your piece later on. Some markup logic can be encapsulated in a very specific tag, which a page designer can use without worrying about correct usage. if all else fails, dreamweaver does provide support for jsp tags http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/productinfo/features/mx/07jsp_development.html peter --- Vinay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a very interesting discussion , at this point I would like to join this discussion and express my concerns and opinions. I am basically a Java programmer, using struts for our software development. Even though I am right now doing both design work using JSTL-EL and development I can't really make the web pages beautiful. I don't use any IDE or any tools though for any of the stuff. So we may have a designer soon and the concern is that most designers I think will not have knowledge of JSTL .I don't know how difficult it is to make the designer knowledgeable about JSTL tags ,Java Objects or Java beans and even if we may allow the designer to do the web page design using some tool like dreamweaver , still there be lot of burden upon the programmer to embed the JSTL-EL tags into the JSP pages. It also requires the developer to use a tool such as Dreamweaver to edit the web designer's code,which may cause some discrepancies in the design(this might not be true,just my guess). But I still think that JSTL-EL is the way to go as it really helps define a view logic (user interface)without any scriplets. Vinay __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Ideally, applications will be designed using the Web MVC paradigm, so view pages will contain only view logic. However, in a complex application, using even the most popular frameworks (Struts, for instance), it's still difficult to completely avoid using scriptlets or scriptlet expressions. If you use the JSTL, however, along with perhaps the Struts-EL library, then it's much easier to write complete pages that don't use a single scriptlet. You can even use the tag library validator that comes with the JSTL that enforces the goal of not having scriptlets on your page. In short, what's important to realize is that the syntax of scriptlets and scriptlet expressions is harder for non-programmers to understand, as compared to understanding conditional JSTL tags using the EL. -Original Message- From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 12:55 PM To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs Greetings, As a software developer I would like to delegate some of the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers, programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers. All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience delgating developing using taglibs. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in JSTL In Action), you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL (or whatever tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any JSP pages unless the first line reads %@ taglib prefix=scriptfree uri=/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld % Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for the String Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point in creating custom tags yourself at all. I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer don't want to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they need a good documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use. Best regards, Eric -Original Message- From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47 To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs only if the project has some very strict guidelines and very good documentation on those guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design the guidelines to be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These restrictions should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to have a complete understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I think would be a lot of work. Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC (http://www.enhydra.org/). In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers write code to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML. -Original Message- From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs Greetings, As a software developer I would like to delegate some of the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers, programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers. All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience delgating developing using taglibs. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I don't know... but to me it seems you get really good web designers :-) Here I ask the designers to do page layout first, then programmers insert the taglib calls... so the first group can use their dreamweaver freely, we can hire cheap designers and programmers can make their tests as soon as they finish the data objects. (Obviously after that we have a specific testing phase, but that's another story) On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 15:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in JSTL In Action), you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL (or whatever tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any JSP pages unless the first line reads %@ taglib prefix=scriptfree uri=/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld % Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for the String Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point in creating custom tags yourself at all. I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer don't want to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they need a good documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use. Best regards, Eric -Original Message- From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47 To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs only if the project has some very strict guidelines and very good documentation on those guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design the guidelines to be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These restrictions should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to have a complete understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I think would be a lot of work. Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC (http://www.enhydra.org/). In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers write code to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML. -Original Message- From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs Greetings, As a software developer I would like to delegate some of the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers, programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers. All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience delgating developing using taglibs. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Felipe Schnack Analista de Sistemas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cel.: (51)91287530 Linux Counter #281893 Centro Universitário Ritter dos Reis http://www.ritterdosreis.br [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fone/Fax.: (51)32303341 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page
designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to
understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility. I agree
that making the page script free is a good step, however programming with
XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming. To a degree
they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
in and things like whether c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/ does a deep
copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
With XMLC you separate the skill sets better. The programmer doesn't need
to know the view. The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID. I really
don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it. However if I
were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
XMLC over JSP.
That's just my opinion though.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in JSTL In
Action),
you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
(or whatever
tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
JSP pages unless the first line reads
%@ taglib prefix=scriptfree uri=/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld %
Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
the String
Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
in creating
custom tags yourself at all.
I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
don't want
to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they
need a good
documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
Best regards,
Eric
-Original Message-
From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
only if the
project has some very strict guidelines and very good
documentation on those
guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design
the guidelines to
be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These
restrictions
should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
have a complete
understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I
think would be a
lot of work.
Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
(http://www.enhydra.org/).
In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers
write code
to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Greetings,
As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point
of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
delgating developing using taglibs.
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
calls.
On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page
designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to
understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility. I agree
that making the page script free is a good step, however programming with
XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming. To a degree
they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
in and things like whether c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/ does a deep
copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
With XMLC you separate the skill sets better. The programmer doesn't need
to know the view. The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID. I really
don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it. However if I
were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
XMLC over JSP.
That's just my opinion though.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in JSTL In
Action),
you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
(or whatever
tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
JSP pages unless the first line reads
%@ taglib prefix=scriptfree uri=/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld %
Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
the String
Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
in creating
custom tags yourself at all.
I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
don't want
to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they
need a good
documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
Best regards,
Eric
-Original Message-
From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
only if the
project has some very strict guidelines and very good
documentation on those
guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design
the guidelines to
be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These
restrictions
should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
have a complete
understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I
think would be a
lot of work.
Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
(http://www.enhydra.org/).
In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers
write code
to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Greetings,
As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point
of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
delgating developing using taglibs.
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Jerome Jacobsen wrote: What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types (primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules. I like this statement. What it shows is that there is no standard way in which the Java developers can document the parts of a system that are availble for the JSP designer. There ought to be some way in which I can tell the JSP designer that on these pages, they have this variable, which has these sub-variables. ie) All pages except for login.jsp have a user variable which has user.name, user.role [for use with the contains tag] and user.birthday, which is a Date. I'd define a sub-type of Java's types: Text, Number, Date, Variable. Variable's have Sub-variables. These are of the type of one of the above. I'd also need to define MultiVariable. Certain JSTL tags [and custom tags, and Jakarta tags] may be used with certain JSP-types. So the problem is not so much JSTL, as that people are teaching JSTL and JSP as some form of Java and not as a completely new language/concept. With a standard way in which to Java and JSP people can communicate, and a new set of concepts with which JSP designers can understand JSP without being aware of the Java underneath, things would be a lot easier I think. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Your approach of designers design html and send files to developers
seems to imply that it work well where designers and developers share
intimate knowledge. What happens when there is less intimacy in terms of
knowledge and designers and programmers are working remotely? For
example the Athens 2004 Olympic project, could you see all or some of
the web designers designing hundreds or thousands of html and devlopers
having to add code via access to some central repository(like source
safe) etc.
As a developer I can tell you I dislike having to open up designers
html especialy those who use WYSWIG tools. On the other insert jsp,jstl
etc into html and send it back to designers leads to problems with
keyboard happy designers who love to tweak their designs etc.
Felipe Schnack wrote:
XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
calls.
On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page
designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to
understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility. I agree
that making the page script free is a good step, however programming with
XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming. To a degree
they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
in and things like whether c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/ does a deep
copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
With XMLC you separate the skill sets better. The programmer doesn't need
to know the view. The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID. I really
don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it. However if I
were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
XMLC over JSP.
That's just my opinion though.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in JSTL In
Action),
you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
(or whatever
tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
JSP pages unless the first line reads
%@ taglib prefix=scriptfree uri=/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld %
Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
the String
Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
in creating
custom tags yourself at all.
I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
don't want
to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they
need a good
documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
Best regards,
Eric
-Original Message-
From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
only if the
project has some very strict guidelines and very good
documentation on those
guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design
the guidelines to
be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These
restrictions
should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
have a complete
understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I
think would be a
lot of work.
Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
(http://www.enhydra.org/).
In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers
write code
to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Greetings,
As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page
designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to
understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility. I agree
that making the page script free is a good step, however programming with
XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming. To a degree
they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
in and things like whether c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/ does a deep
copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
I think the suggestion that Web developers are solely responsible for
all JSPs in overly dogmatic. I have been quite successful in
situations where Web Developers are completely responsible for all pages
that don't contain forms. For the ones that do, typically about 20% of
the site, a more collaborative approach is required. The form rendering
etc. is still handled by the web developers but the first cut, including
anything in the header to actually handle the request is written by a
Java programmer.
I do not know of a case where a web developer has used a c:set or
c:catch tag. Likewise, we have never seen them run into any problems
with Java types. There is a thing called a that has something called
b has been adequate up to now. If they need to do a complicated
conditional we would either have a programmer write it or make a custom
tag.
IMHO: The whole reason for the JSTL was to create a standard. Using XML
tools to hide it seems counterproductive.
Regards, Evan
--
Evan Schnell, Technical Lead
nVISIA, Twin Cities Digital Architecture and Construction
7701 France Ave. S, Edina, MN 55435
Voice: 952.837.2577 -- Fax: 952.837.2578 -- Mobile: 612.232.5972
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
As a developer I can tell you I dislike having to open up designers
html especialy those who use WYSWIG tools.
Maybe you should use a WYSIWYG tool too :-)
On the other insert jsp,jstl
etc into html and send it back to designers leads to problems with
keyboard happy designers who love to tweak their designs etc.
This is a matter of training...
Felipe Schnack wrote:
XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
calls.
On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page
designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to
understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility. I agree
that making the page script free is a good step, however programming with
XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming. To a degree
they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
in and things like whether c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/ does a deep
copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
With XMLC you separate the skill sets better. The programmer doesn't need
to know the view. The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID. I really
don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it. However if I
were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
XMLC over JSP.
That's just my opinion though.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in JSTL In
Action),
you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
(or whatever
tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
JSP pages unless the first line reads
%@ taglib prefix=scriptfree uri=/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld %
Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
the String
Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
in creating
custom tags yourself at all.
I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
don't want
to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they
need a good
documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
Best regards,
Eric
-Original Message-
From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
only if the
project has some very strict guidelines and very good
documentation on those
guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design
the guidelines to
be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These
restrictions
should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
have a complete
understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I
think would be a
lot of work.
Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
(http://www.enhydra.org/).
In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers
write code
to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Greetings,
As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point
of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Hello- Forgive my comments as they are not technical. Just observations I have made on a few projects over the past couple months. Since there are very few java programmers who are designers, and vice versa - there must be a comfortable zone where designers/developers can integrate their works without battles. I have found that there is little place for a WYSIWYG design team outside of prototyping, this becomes even more evident as applications evolve. In a recent project we migrated JSP 1.1 code and old ratty HTML code to jsp1.2/struts, with XHTML and CSS-P on the client side. I have found that having good designers that write good XHTML code and use CSS have the foundation to understand the MVC approach - After all they are doing the same thing with the style and layout that java developers try to do with the model, view and controller. All the java developers I work with understand the view layer, and all the designers understand how the model and controller fits into their design. I think XHTML helps out a lot. And I have seen it. I sit on both sides of the fence; I do some view design but mostly backend. Some days I am in Jdeveloper some days I am in dreamweaver validating XHTML pages. I have a lot of people like me on my team and it just works. If you are stuck with crummy designers that don't get the backend at all, giving them a set of tags to use won't help the situation. Educating them will. If they don't want to learn, send them back to the marketing department to work on the new web designers business cards. Just because their designers doesn't mean they shouldn't understand the backend, and vice versa. Sorry for the long message. -chris -Original Message- From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs Greetings, As a software developer I would like to delegate some of the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers, programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers. All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience delgating developing using taglibs. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
This is an interesting topic, and people obviously have strong opinions about successes and failures at using this technology within their work environments. My viewpoint is that JSTL provides a nice set of features that most page designers with some programming experience will be able to use, especially if they spend the time to learn about the web application environment (request/response, scope, etc.) and get a good reference like Manning's JSTL in Action. Many work environments need web applications for simple tasks of presenting dynamic data, and JSTL is perfect for that. As the designers become more familiar with the technology, they can move on to more sophisticated projects that use frameworks such as Struts. I think part of the problem with this discussion is the notion that team members fit nicely in roles such as developer, page designer, and graphics artist. Jeez, the original poster even differentiated himself (the 'developer') from programmers and that distinction baffles me. I would guess that few shops have staff that fit so nicely into these roles, but instead there is a blending of disciplines and each staff member has one or more specialties. I have programming experience in other languages and web design experience, but I don't have the entire Java API under my belt (yet). For people like me that constantly deal with the view aspect of a project but also have some programming experience, JSTL offers a nice standards-based middle-ground where I can contribute. Conversely, if I was a pure graphics artist without programming experience, then I would have no interest in learning JSTL, even if it does look like HTML, and you'd be a fool to think that voila!, I could instantly understand the techniques for using JSTL to accomplish some tasks. In the end, I would try to use the right tool to solve a problem, and my choice would affected by the environment and experience of staff. I'm sure there are many cases where JSTL is a perfect choice and many others where attempting to use JSTL is unacceptable. Regards, Garrel Renick -Original Message- From: Felipe Schnack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:12 PM To: Tag Libraries Users List Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs But your designers can handle EL when they need to? And I never say any problems with WYSIWYG tools like Dreamweaver... and design teams I worked with used it... maybe we do simpler things, but it worked... On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 17:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello- Forgive my comments as they are not technical. Just observations I have made on a few projects over the past couple months. Since there are very few java programmers who are designers, and vice versa - there must be a comfortable zone where designers/developers can integrate their works without battles. I have found that there is little place for a WYSIWYG design team outside of prototyping, this becomes even more evident as applications evolve. In a recent project we migrated JSP 1.1 code and old ratty HTML code to jsp1.2/struts, with XHTML and CSS-P on the client side. I have found that having good designers that write good XHTML code and use CSS have the foundation to understand the MVC approach - After all they are doing the same thing with the style and layout that java developers try to do with the model, view and controller. All the java developers I work with understand the view layer, and all the designers understand how the model and controller fits into their design. I think XHTML helps out a lot. And I have seen it. I sit on both sides of the fence; I do some view design but mostly backend. Some days I am in Jdeveloper some days I am in dreamweaver validating XHTML pages. I have a lot of people like me on my team and it just works. If you are stuck with crummy designers that don't get the backend at all, giving them a set of tags to use won't help the situation. Educating them will. If they don't want to learn, send them back to the marketing department to work on the new web designers business cards. Just because their designers doesn't mean they shouldn't understand the backend, and vice versa. Sorry for the long message. -chris Chris, Actually, it is not long enough, I'd like to hear more :-) Could you give some specifics on how XHTML did help. What are the typical interactions between the designers and the developers? How much back and forth happens between the two groups? Anyone has ownership of the page at the end of the day? Thanks, -- Pierre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Renick, Garrel wrote: This is an interesting topic, and people obviously have strong opinions about successes and failures at using this technology within their work environments. My viewpoint is that JSTL provides a nice set of features that most page designers with some programming experience will be able to use, especially if they spend the time to learn about the web application environment (request/response, scope, etc.) and get a good reference like Manning's JSTL in Action. Many work environments need web applications for simple tasks of presenting dynamic data, and JSTL is perfect for that. As the designers become more familiar with the technology, they can move on to more sophisticated projects that use frameworks such as Struts. I think part of the problem with this discussion is the notion that team members fit nicely in roles such as developer, page designer, and graphics artist. Jeez, the original poster even differentiated himself (the 'developer') from programmers and that distinction baffles me. I would guess that few shops have staff that fit so nicely into these roles, but instead there is a blending of disciplines and each staff member has one or more specialties. I have programming experience in other languages and web design experience, but I don't have the entire Java API under my belt (yet). For people like me that constantly deal with the view aspect of a project but also have some programming experience, JSTL offers a nice standards-based middle-ground where I can contribute. Conversely, if I was a pure graphics artist without programming experience, then I would have no interest in learning JSTL, even if it does look like HTML, and you'd be a fool to think that voila!, I could instantly understand the techniques for using JSTL to accomplish some tasks. However, what would be, in your opinion, the best approach in a situation where a company requires a Philippe (graphics-artist/page-designer) to design a dynamic web site that is appealing and easy to use? Something, Mike, the server-side engineer is definitely not qualified to do even though he can crank html very quickly (we're talking usability here ;-) How much of a stretch is it to get Philippe (assuming typical knowledge of JavaScript a designer would have) to use JSTL so he can have full control over the pages of the website? Or is it simply easier to just forget about training Philippe, and have Mike integrate the dynamic portions with the static designs of Philippe, and go back and forth between the two. Is it a tool issue? Just curious... Trying to get as many data points as possible... -- Pierre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:51, Pierre Delisle wrote:
How much of a stretch is it to get Philippe (assuming typical knowledge of
JavaScript a designer would have) to use JSTL so he can have full control
over the pages of the website?
Or is it simply easier to just forget about training Philippe, and
have Mike integrate the dynamic portions with the static designs
of Philippe, and go back and forth between the two.
Is it a tool issue?
I've found it's far more of a stretch than I would have thought. JSTL
might be more tool-friendly than a scriptlet, but it still requires a
basic understanding of what's going on in java-land (although we don't
have to CALL it java-land).
We've been using scriptlets until recently and I'm pushing to get JSTL
more for formatting reasons than anything else... The page designer that
I work with has a very tenuous grasp on scriptlets/beans/etc. and I'm
not seeing any great improvement with JSTL--it seems like syntactic
sugar, really.
Now, if a page design tool could understand the objects behind a JSTL
tag and throw up a list of potentially interesting things (what booleans
are available from this object (i.e., what presentation decisions can I
make)? what textual or numerical information is available?) and build up
the JSTL stuff automagically that could be interesting.
For myself, it's tough to convince me I shouldn't just type
% if (beanVar.isLocalUser()) { %
blah blah
% } %
even though I know I'm evil and wrong for doing so (bearing in mind that
I'm a programmer first, designer second). If I could wrap it in a
decision block, get a list of objects and values available, or
whatever, I might be more likely to use JSTL.
I think your thought that this may end up being a tool rather than
technology issue may be on target, at least from my point of view. It
has been easier (for us, anyway) for me to integrate dynamic stuff into
a pre-designed page rather than get the design monkeys to learn enough
about java _OR_ JSTL that they don't have to pester me to display a
user's name or make a presentation decision based on their geographical
location etc.
Dave
-
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RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Pierre, If I were managing the group, my decision would be based on the abilities of Philippe (page designer) and Mike (the server-side engineer). If the page designer was part of the team and had an interest in the technology, I would try to get him to embrace JSTL and go for it. Have him spend some time with the engineer and prototype the site; perhaps determine where they need each other's help. I don't think it would be much of a stretch if the page designer has some experience with basic programming principles and is willing to read and experiment (and stuggle at times). In the end, the whole team will be better off since Phillipe might be able to complete some of those easy requests while Mike is away designing back-end systems and business logic. If Mike the engineer has an attitude and doesn't want to help Phillipe when he gets stuck, or Phillipe prefers Photoshop to working with a webapp, forget it and let Mike integrate the dynamic work into Phillipe's static designs. Regards, Garrel Renick -Original Message- From: Pierre Delisle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs Renick, Garrel wrote: This is an interesting topic, and people obviously have strong opinions about successes and failures at using this technology within their work environments. My viewpoint is that JSTL provides a nice set of features that most page designers with some programming experience will be able to use, especially if they spend the time to learn about the web application environment (request/response, scope, etc.) and get a good reference like Manning's JSTL in Action. Many work environments need web applications for simple tasks of presenting dynamic data, and JSTL is perfect for that. As the designers become more familiar with the technology, they can move on to more sophisticated projects that use frameworks such as Struts. I think part of the problem with this discussion is the notion that team members fit nicely in roles such as developer, page designer, and graphics artist. Jeez, the original poster even differentiated himself (the 'developer') from programmers and that distinction baffles me. I would guess that few shops have staff that fit so nicely into these roles, but instead there is a blending of disciplines and each staff member has one or more specialties. I have programming experience in other languages and web design experience, but I don't have the entire Java API under my belt (yet). For people like me that constantly deal with the view aspect of a project but also have some programming experience, JSTL offers a nice standards-based middle-ground where I can contribute. Conversely, if I was a pure graphics artist without programming experience, then I would have no interest in learning JSTL, even if it does look like HTML, and you'd be a fool to think that voila!, I could instantly understand the techniques for using JSTL to accomplish some tasks. However, what would be, in your opinion, the best approach in a situation where a company requires a Philippe (graphics-artist/page-designer) to design a dynamic web site that is appealing and easy to use? Something, Mike, the server-side engineer is definitely not qualified to do even though he can crank html very quickly (we're talking usability here ;-) How much of a stretch is it to get Philippe (assuming typical knowledge of JavaScript a designer would have) to use JSTL so he can have full control over the pages of the website? Or is it simply easier to just forget about training Philippe, and have Mike integrate the dynamic portions with the static designs of Philippe, and go back and forth between the two. Is it a tool issue? Just curious... Trying to get as many data points as possible... -- Pierre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
