date:20110418

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 7:38 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote:

While I certainly understand the pro-PD argument, what would folks
think about putting the checkbox after the submit button?
I agree, it should be done

 It's rather degrading saying this about community members signing up,
 when at the same time you same people expect that clicking
 another box on another page (I agree to the CT)
 creates a binding contract.

 If you really need votes that you can account for, send
 the members a printed form to sign.
 Or at least use a input box where people
 have to (copy)type a simple phrase like
In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to
sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written
contract or a CopyPast thing ;)

Fabio A Locati
-- 
Fabio Alessandro Locati

Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1)
Phone: +39-328-3799681
MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread Cartinus

On Monday 18 April 2011 04:47:30 Steve Coast wrote:
 Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD
 box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining.

And hereby the expected anti-PD campaign is officially started.


-- 
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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[OSM-talk] Contributor terms: errors in the Italian translation

2011-04-18 Thread Niccolo Rigacci

There are some errors in the Italian translation of the 
contributor terms https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/terms

License names contains typos:

* ODbl sould be ODbL (the case)
* DdCL should be DbCL (b instead of d)

The phrase le quali saranno si intenderanno approvate con il 
voto should be le quali si intenderanno approvate con il voto 
(a verb is repeated).

I also suggest to embed a link the the legal text of the 
licenses.

I know Simone Cortesi - which made the translation - is off-line 
for a while. So someone else should fix it. I don't have write 
access to the pages, if I can help let me know how.

-- 
Niccolo Rigacci
Firenze - Italy

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

Perhaps the PD tickbox could be replaced with a radio button between two 
choices.
One of the two must be picked before submitting.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

Richard Fairhurst richard at systemed.net writes:

What's not clear is how the ODbL+DbCL licence would help this 
situation. It would at least straightforwardly permit the publishing 
of map tiles without any attribution or share-alike requirement

Disagree. (This has been gone over ad nauseam on legal-talk, I'm just
pointing it out here for the record.)

Sorry, I didn't mean to spread misinformation.  Oh well, this was the one big
advantage of ODbL as far as I could see :-(.  So do the produced map tiles (a
Produced Work under the ODbL, I think, or am I mistaken there to?) have to be
distributed under the ODbL also - or can you use any distribution terms as long
as it has attribution - or what?

(I'd rather not *discuss* these legal niceties here on this list but if you 
could
forward the official word on these matters it would help.  It is a pity that 
it's
not completely idiot-proof and obvious from the licence text itself.)

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-18 Thread Nick Whitelegg

It's everyone else who we have to worry about. In the last couple of months,
I've personally noticed a national railway company, a charity with a
turnover of £100m, a vast firm of couriers, a magazine publisher, a book
publisher, all infringing our requirements/requests for attribution and
share-alike. (I've spotted these by chance: I don't go out there looking for
this stuff.) Deliberate? In some cases, definitely. You wouldn't put an
entirely fictitious credit to another organisation if you were just innocent
of the niceties.

TBH I actually feel flattered when an external organisation uses our maps. At 
Mottisfont and Dunbridge station, Hants, there's a map which I think could be 
an OSM map - reason being it shows a permissive path not on Ordnance Survey 
maps. On the other hand it could be just drawn by a 'local'. It would be *nice* 
for them to attribute, but I do think it is rather nice to see our maps being 
used in the real world in any case.

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 19:47 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:
 Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD 
 box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining.

Many people have become accustomed to simply checking/accepting any
terms and conditions displayed, for fear of not being able to proceed.  

Infact, my GPS unit upon power up displays a warning about copyright and
using while driving which you must accept, as if you try to proceed
without accepting, it instantly powers off.

After all, have you ever seen an application which asked you to accept a
licence, and proceeded anyway if you clicked refuse?

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread Jukka Rahkonen

Cartinus cartinus at xs4all.nl writes:

 
 On Monday 18 April 2011 04:47:30 Steve Coast wrote:
  Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD
  box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining.
 
 And hereby the expected anti-PD campaign is officially started.

I would guess that lots of people are also selecting ODbL + CT without looking
at those and the anti-PD campaign has started a long, long time ago. But it
would be really entertaining to see statistics about how many people have
checked the PD tick box.



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[OSM-talk] View Access Blocked?

2011-04-18 Thread Steve Doerr

I'm finding I can't do anything at openstreetmap.org, not even visit the 
home page, without accepting or declining the contributor terms. I 
assume that this is because I'm logged in - hopefully a non-member just 
wanting to view the map would not have this difficulty. I can't even log 
out - clicking the logout link just redisplays the contributor terms.


Fortunately, I can get round it by using a different browser where I'm 
not logged in, but it's a bit of a pain. I think it should be considered 
a bug.


--
Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Hiroshi Miura

Hi Toby,

Good job! Thanks.

I wanna use it for japanese osm mappers.

Hiroshi
OSM Foundation Japan

On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Could you create a graph that shows the graph since you started
 collecting data in addition to or instead of just the last 48 hours?
 :-)

 This graph is very informative.


 On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 Not sure if anyone else is already doing this but two days ago I
 thought it would be fun (maybe even useful) to graph the number of
 users who have accepted/declined the new license/CT in anticipation of
 the next phase going into effect on Sunday. I hacked together a quick
  dirty script to use as a data source in the Zabbix instance I have
 set up at home. Zabbix is geared towards system monitoring so it is a
 little odd to graph something completely unrelated but it was
 available and easy to do and at the end of the day, a graph is a
 graph.

 Anyway, I didn't feel like sending out the URL to my private zabbix
 instance at home to the mailing list so I set up a cron job to
 periodically refresh a static image on a more legitimate server. It
 can be seen here:

 http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count.html



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Re: [OSM-talk] View Access Blocked?

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote:
 Fortunately, I can get round it by using a different browser where I'm not
 logged in, but it's a bit of a pain. I think it should be considered a bug.
Or a feature to make people press on 'Accept' or 'Decline ' ;)
As long as un-logged users are fine, I think is fine ;)

Fabio A Locati
-- 
Fabio Alessandro Locati

Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1)
Phone: +39-328-3799681
MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com

PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2  A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

Is a really good piece of work :) I think it'll be very useful ;).
The only thing I would add, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea, is a
line for the people that still have to accept or decline it ( 286581 -
agreed - disagreed). I'm only concerned about the scale that could be
screwed, but I think this is a useful information, at least in Phase
3, where the goal is to pushing people to press accept or decline.

Thanks for your awesome work :)
Fabio A Locati

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Hiroshi Miura miur...@osmf.jp wrote:
 Hi Toby,

 Good job! Thanks.

 I wanna use it for japanese osm mappers.

 Hiroshi
 OSM Foundation Japan

 On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Could you create a graph that shows the graph since you started
 collecting data in addition to or instead of just the last 48 hours?
 :-)

 This graph is very informative.


 On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 Not sure if anyone else is already doing this but two days ago I
 thought it would be fun (maybe even useful) to graph the number of
 users who have accepted/declined the new license/CT in anticipation of
 the next phase going into effect on Sunday. I hacked together a quick
  dirty script to use as a data source in the Zabbix instance I have
 set up at home. Zabbix is geared towards system monitoring so it is a
 little odd to graph something completely unrelated but it was
 available and easy to do and at the end of the day, a graph is a
 graph.

 Anyway, I didn't feel like sending out the URL to my private zabbix
 instance at home to the mailing list so I set up a cron job to
 periodically refresh a static image on a more legitimate server. It
 can be seen here:

 http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count.html



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Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1)
Phone: +39-328-3799681
MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com

PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2  A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

Am I worng or the PD-box is for statistical use only?

Fabio A Locati

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Jukka Rahkonen
jukka.rahko...@latuviitta.fi wrote:
 Cartinus cartinus at xs4all.nl writes:


 On Monday 18 April 2011 04:47:30 Steve Coast wrote:
  Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD
  box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining.

 And hereby the expected anti-PD campaign is officially started.

 I would guess that lots of people are also selecting ODbL + CT without looking
 at those and the anti-PD campaign has started a long, long time ago. But it
 would be really entertaining to see statistics about how many people have
 checked the PD tick box.



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-- 
Fabio Alessandro Locati

Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1)
Phone: +39-328-3799681
MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com

PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2  A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61

Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia

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[OSM-talk] Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.

2011-04-18 Thread Jorge Gustavo Rocha

Hi,

Recently, when I try to upload my edits, the server (or JOSM?) is
reporting:
Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.
then it waits 10 seconds and continues afterwards.

Is this some kind of overload protection mechanism on the server side?
Is the server been to busy? Or it is on the JOSM client?

What can I do to help?

Regards,


Jorge
-- 
Jorge Gustavo Rocha
Departamento de Informática
Universidade do Minho
4710-057 Braga
Tel: 253604430 (Geral), 253604479 (Gabinete)
Fax: 253604471
Móvel: 910333888


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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200
Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote:

 In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to
 sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written
 contract or a CopyPast thing ;)

add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT
comparable to signing a printed contract.


Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet G102v01

  Elements of a contract
The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a
legally binding agreement):
•   an offer;
•   acceptance;
•   benefit to all parties (“consideration”).
Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered
and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A
contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further
conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of
acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties
agreeing to the new terms.


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-18 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Ed Avis wrote:
 So do the produced map tiles (a Produced Work under the ODbL, 
 I think, or am I mistaken there to?) have to be distributed under 
 the ODbL also - or can you use any distribution terms as long
 as it has attribution - or what?

ODbL 4.3 allows you to distribute Produced Works under any licence as long
as you provide attribution.

[...] if you Publicly Use a Produced Work, You must include a notice
associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person
that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the
Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative
Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is
available under this License

cheers
Richard



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Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread pec...@gmail.com

2011/4/18 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net:
 On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200
 Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote:

 In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to
 sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written
 contract or a CopyPast thing ;)

 add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT
 comparable to signing a printed contract.


 Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet G102v01

      Elements of a contract
 The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a
 legally binding agreement):
 •   an offer;
 •   acceptance;
 •   benefit to all parties (“consideration”).
 Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered
 and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A
 contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further
 conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of
 acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties
 agreeing to the new terms.


I know, English is not my native one, but how it is related with
checkbox as agreeing with printed contract?
When you check that box, you agree that contract is final and valid.
If you don't want to acept the terms, you simply don't check it.

Or I don't get secret lawyers language? :)

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread Jukka Rahkonen

Fabio Alessandro Locati fabiolocati at gmail.com writes:

 
 Am I worng or the PD-box is for statistical use only?

It may be there for statistics but no numbers have ever been published. The
other possible reason for the existence of the tick box is to make PD-minded
people feel happy and be quit. Somehow similar case than the creation of the
legal-general mailing list.

PD-box does not have any practical effect, all data that is uploaded into OSM
database is under the same OSM licence.


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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread Kenneth Gonsalves

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:02 +1000, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200
 Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to
  sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written
  contract or a CopyPast thing ;)
 
 add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT
 comparable to signing a printed contract.
 
 
 Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet
 G102v01
 
   Elements of a contract
 The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a
 legally binding agreement):
 •   an offer;
 •   acceptance;
 •   benefit to all parties (“consideration”).
 Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered
 and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A
 contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further
 conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of
 acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties
 agreeing to the new terms.
 
 

where does this say that ticking a checkbox is not an acceptance of an
offer? And there is nothing unique about this - derived from English
common law and the same terms are there in *all* jurisdictions that
derive from common law.
-- 
regards
KG
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
Coimbatore LUG rox
http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/


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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box



 
 I know, English is not my native one, but how it is related with
 checkbox as agreeing with printed contract?
 When you check that box, you agree that contract is final and valid.
 If you don't want to acept the terms, you simply don't check it.
 
 Or I don't get secret lawyers language? :)
 
 Cheers,
 Peter.

A tickbox does not contain all the parts of a full contract. A contract
does not need to be on paper, but it means that 'you and I together
agreed on these terms'. I gave the 'elements' or things that must be
present for a valid contract, a tickbox does not necessarily contain
them all.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.

2011-04-18 Thread Claudius


Am 18.04.2011 11:37, Jorge Gustavo Rocha:

Hi,

Recently, when I try to upload my edits, the server (or JOSM?) is
reporting:
Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.
then it waits 10 seconds and continues afterwards.

Is this some kind of overload protection mechanism on the server side?
Is the server been to busy? Or it is on the JOSM client?

What can I do to help?

Regards,


Jorge


Are you using the latest JOSM version (4021 that is) and have you 
answered the Contributor Terms question for your OSM yet?


Claudius


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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

David Murn davey at incanberra.com.au writes:

Infact, my GPS unit upon power up displays a warning about copyright and
using while driving which you must accept, as if you try to proceed
without accepting, it instantly powers off.

What, it warns you that copyright doesn't apply?  Excellent.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Are CT contributors are in breach of the CC-BY-SA license?

2011-04-18 Thread 80n

Francis
Thank you for your patience and the detail of your answers.

This whole thing is a complicated business and the subtleties when
various different licenses and so forth are combine are often
unexpected.

80n


On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Francis Davey fjm...@gmail.com wrote:

 That is the situation you are describing.

 I'm not sure what you mean by the situation you are describing, but

 Ah, this is where we are probably at cross purposes. I am sorry for
 that - its been a long thread. 80n's original query concerned
 uploading work to OSMF by someone who has agreed to the contributor
 terms. That is a sublicence (because it is expressed that way) and
 that is something which CC-BY-SA does not permit (I think we agree on
 that point).

 it's not how CC-BY-SA works, since CC-BY-SA specifically says that it
 does not grant permission to sublicense.  Instead Each time You
 Distribute or Publicly Perform an Adaptation, Licensor offers to the
 recipient a license to the original Work on the same terms and
 conditions as the license granted to You under this License.


 ... and my mistake, yes of course the right to sublicense applies only
 to derivative works. Under the US 3.0 at least, the CC licence grants
 a right to sublicence derivative works but not the original work.

 Under CC-BY-SA, X licenses the work to Y, Z, and any other third
 party, granting permission to distribute the work under [the terms of]
 L1, L2, or any other Compatible License.  The licenses to the
 contributions of X come from X, not from Y.


 Yes.

 If Y made modifications to the work, Y's license covers only Y's
 modifications.  If Z then makes modifications, Z's license covers only

 No. Y's licence covers the whole of the derived work. X's licence
 covers all the work as not modified by Y. Z benefits from both those
 licences as against the respective licensors, which makes sense.

 Z's modifications. I assume the reason this is done is to simplify the
 chain of title, and also to avoid complications with copyright
 transfers, inheritance, infringements, etc.  On the why though maybe
 a CC list would be the best place to ask.


 Yes, that was my  understanding. The CC model is a new licence to all
 users of the work from the original licensor which avoids problems
 with chain of title. To the extent that CC licences are not contracts
 this is fine. Certainly in the UK CC doesn't rely on contract to work.
 I suspect there are more difficulties with ODbL style contract-reliant
 effects to third parties of this kind.

 Anyway, as you say this is fairly off topic and not what 80n asked.

 --
 Francis Davey

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Are CT contributors are in breach of the CC-BY-SA license?

2011-04-18 Thread Richard Weait

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 5:39 AM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote:
 It would seem to me that anyone who has agreed to the contributor
 terms and who then edits content that is published by OSM is in breach
 of the CC-BY-SA license.

It seems to me that you are confused, but I think I see where that
originates and have fixed it.

The OpenStreetMap database is currently available as CC-By-SA.  Users
are indicating their willingness to relicense their contributions, or
not, under ODbL.  Current edits are CC-By-SA.  The OSM db is currently
CC-By-SA, only.

In Phase 4, accounts that have not accepted CT/ODbL will be prevented
from further editing.  Accounts which have accepted will continue to
make CC-By-SA-only edits to the CC-By-SA database.  CC-By-SA planet
files, etc. will continue to be publisheduntil the end of Phase 4.
The last of these CC-By-SA-only edits will be the removal of the last
CC-By-SA-only data, leaving only contributions approved by the authors
for both CC-By-SA and ODbL.  That db of CC-By-SA and ODbL-approved
data will be published as the last CC-By-SA OSM planet file.

Then, Phase 5 begins.  That same db from the end of Phase4, consisting
only of data approved by the contributors for both CC-By-SA and ODbL,
will be published as the first OSM ODbL-only database.  Editing of
this ODbL database, will continue by ODbL-accepted accounts as
ODbL-only edits.

I have clarified the Phase 4 title in the Implementation plan[1].  It
said, CC-BY-SA edits no longer accepted and now reads, PHASE 4 -
Decline accounts deactivated.  The intent and function of Phase 4
has not changed but the title is now more direct.  I apologize for
your confusion.

Best regards,
Richard

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Implementation_Plan

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Are CT contributors are in breach of the CC-BY-SA license?

2011-04-18 Thread Francis Davey

On 18 April 2011 15:09, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote:
 Francis
 Thank you for your patience and the detail of your answers.

 This whole thing is a complicated business and the subtleties when
 various different licenses and so forth are combine are often
 unexpected.

That's fine. I'm always happy to help. You caught me at a weekend when
there was plenty of time to think about it.

I won't try and answer your questions about distribution because I
don't think add anything to what we already know _and_ because there's
some academic argument as to exactly what the distribution right
means. I don't think this is the place to rehearse those.

No body can be blamed for finding this difficult. Anyone trying to do
something radically new - and OSM is fairly radical - will often find
themselves caught by laws that weren't designed with them in mind.
Copyright law is not really designed to deal with crowd-sourced map
projects :-).

-- 
Francis Davey

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

Richard Fairhurst richard at systemed.net writes:

ODbL 4.3 allows you to distribute Produced Works under any licence as
long as you provide attribution.

[...] if you Publicly Use a Produced Work, You must include a notice
associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any
Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise
exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the
Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a
Collective Database, and that it is available under this License

So you must provide attribution, but you don't have to enforce that
downstream users of the Produced Work have to keep the attribution.
(That seems sensible enough to me personally.)

Anyway, to get back to the original point, you mentioned some cases
where the current licence is being infringed by various small
businesses (not big map data vendors) who are using OSM tiles without
attribution.  But under ODbL this use would simply be permitted - they
could, for example, download rendered map tiles from somebody else and
then use them as they wished.  Or is it your understanding that the
attribution requirement under ODbL really is 'viral' and everybody who
distributes a Produced Work, no matter how far down the chain, needs
to attribute.  (If so, that takes care of one of the concerns that 80n
had with the new licence, that it doesn't guarantee contributors will
be credited.)

--
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com



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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

Ed Avis eda at waniasset.com writes:

[...] if you Publicly Use a Produced Work, You must include a notice
associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any
Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise
exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the
Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a
Collective Database, and that it is available under this License

So you must provide attribution, but you don't have to enforce that
downstream users of the Produced Work have to keep the attribution.
(That seems sensible enough to me personally.)

To answer my own question - I guess that 'reasonably calculated to make...'
suggests you should include an attribution notice and ask downstream users to
respect it - although it doesn't mandate any particular choice of licence.
So we would still have the attribution requirement as now.

To return again to the possible infringements of the OSM licence - in the cases
where currently OSM tiles are being used without attribution, I can't see any
reason why requiring or enforcing attribution would become easier under the ODbL
rather than the current licence.  I don't think we've had any infringer send us
a letter from their legal department saying that copyright doesn't apply, so
nyah nyah.  Nor have we ever (AFAIK) sent a menacing notice from our own
lawyers (employed by OSMF or by mappers).  I think it's a human problem, not a
legalese problem.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

Ive noticed a few discrepancies with the graph..

How come on the 2-day graph, the scale for decline goes 10300 to 10800
while on 5-day graph the range is 10200 to 10800.  The accept scale is
0-100 on 2-day but 0-120 on 5-day.  The upshot is that the 'accepted'
value is 99.8% of the full range, while the 'declined' value is either
62% of the full range (or 75% in the case of 2-day graph).  This has the
affect of showing the accepted numbers looking higher, while infact,
visual inspection of the graph shows the graphs working the other way.

The top 2-day graph, shows the decline scale starting above the accept
line for about the first 24hrs of the graph, but in the bottom graph
indicates that the acceptance rate is much higher with a significant
diversion in the lines, even though the numbers being represented are
equal.

If you want to represent these important figures in statistics, can you
at least use a common scale to avoid distorting peoples views of the
figures?  Using deceptive graphing methods was a trick we were taught
back in school as a child.  It doesnt make your figures look any better,
it just makes those educated enough to pick your graphs faults, not
value any of it at all.

David


On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 00:06 -0500, Toby Murray wrote:
 I was actually thinking about doing that but went to bed last night
 after getting the first one up. At that point the point I believe the
 start point for the data was just barely off of the first graph. But I
 just added a 5 day graph. I will extend it as I get more data to show
 the long term trend.
 
 Toby
 
 
 On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
  Could you create a graph that shows the graph since you started
  collecting data in addition to or instead of just the last 48 hours?
  :-)
 
  This graph is very informative.
 
 
  On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
  Not sure if anyone else is already doing this but two days ago I
  thought it would be fun (maybe even useful) to graph the number of
  users who have accepted/declined the new license/CT in anticipation of
  the next phase going into effect on Sunday. I hacked together a quick
   dirty script to use as a data source in the Zabbix instance I have
  set up at home. Zabbix is geared towards system monitoring so it is a
  little odd to graph something completely unrelated but it was
  available and easy to do and at the end of the day, a graph is a
  graph.
 
  Anyway, I didn't feel like sending out the URL to my private zabbix
  instance at home to the mailing list so I set up a cron job to
  periodically refresh a static image on a more legitimate server. It
  can be seen here:
 
  http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count.html
 
  Enjoy,
  Toby
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011/4/18 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au:
 If you want to represent these important figures in statistics, can you
 at least use a common scale to avoid distorting peoples views of the
 figures?  Using deceptive graphing methods was a trick we were taught
 back in school as a child.  It doesnt make your figures look any better,


It makes them readable. If you used the same scale you won't see the
handful of no-votes against the 1 yes-votes.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread Toby Murray

For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with
nothing but a checkbox on a web form...

Toby

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Are CT contributors are in breach of the CC-BY-SA license?

2011-04-18 Thread Kai Krueger

Richard Weait wrote:

The OpenStreetMap database is currently available as CC-By-SA. Users
are indicating their willingness to relicense their contributions, or
not, under ODbL. Current edits are CC-By-SA. The OSM db is currently
CC-By-SA, only.

I am not sure that gets to the point 80n was trying to make. My
understanding of the argument is the following:

As you say, OSM is currently CC-BY-SA only. Therefore, any data you download
from OSM, e.g. the data you download into josm, is CC-BY-SA only. CC-BY-SA
does not allow you to sublicense and requires derivatives to be CC-BY-SA.
Once you accept the CT, you state that for all uploads (both future and
past) you make to OSM you grant to OSMF a worldwide, royalty-free,
non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable licence to do any act that is
restricted by copyright, database right or any related right over anything
within the Contents. CC-BY-SA does not give you the right to do the _any
act that is restricted by copyright_ part. So you are not allowed to upload
the data under the CTs. What OSMF then does with those uploads, whether it
distributes them under CC-BY-SA, ODbL or any other license of its choosing
is irrelevant, as you (the mapper) weren't allowed to contribute the data
under the CTs in the first place.

As OSMF is not the licensor under the current model, but the individual
mappers, you are also not uploading the data back to the original author,
but an independent third party (OSMF).

I am not going to judge the validity of the argument and leave that up to
the lawyers.

Kai

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 17:25 +0200, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 It makes them readable. If you used the same scale you won't see the
 handful of no-votes against the 1 yes-votes.

It appears the scales have changed, and the readability hasnt changed.
If anything the 2 lines are now more distinct from each other than
before.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Toby Murray

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 10:25 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2011/4/18 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au:
 If you want to represent these important figures in statistics, can you
 at least use a common scale to avoid distorting peoples views of the
 figures?  Using deceptive graphing methods was a trick we were taught
 back in school as a child.  It doesnt make your figures look any better,


 It makes them readable. If you used the same scale you won't see the
 handful of no-votes against the 1 yes-votes.

Yes, this is why I used a different axis for both values. Otherwise
the accept would be a straight line across the top and the decline
would be a straight line across the bottom of the graph. Not very
useful.

I am using zabbix to make the graphs. Like I said, it is targeted at
system monitoring, not statistical analysis. Hence, the scales change
based on the available data to maximize the viewability of the data.

If someone wants, I might be able to produce a data dump so you can
make your own graphs. Zabbix stores it as a timestamp and a value in a
mysql database.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 10:27 -0500, Toby Murray wrote:
 For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with
 nothing but a checkbox on a web form...

You mean all you had to do to do your tax, was check a checkbox and
click accept?  Or did you also provide information persuant to what was
asked of you, in order to complete the process?

This basically just shows the issues that will arise with the change to
contract law.  In your jurisdiction, what youve done may be legally
acceptable, but in others it is not.  I suspect that the number of
places that have different contract laws is significantly higher than
those places that dont recognise CC-BY-SA, but there must be a small
select group for who the old licence doesnt work but the new one fits
their requirement.  Maybe we should all move to this magical place.. at
least with that many mappers in one place, OSM might start being
completed.

David


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[OSM-talk] OSM data used for X-Plane 10

2011-04-18 Thread Alex Mauer

I just saw this blog post yesterday, saying that OSM data will be used
for showing road networks in the terrain data for the X-Plane flight
simulator in version 10.

http://www.x-plane.com/blog/2011/04/openstreetmap-and-x-plane-10/

Cool stuff!

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011/4/18 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au:

 I suspect that the number of
 places that have different contract laws is significantly higher than
 those places that dont recognise CC-BY-SA,


I think you are ignoring the fact, that the problem was not whether a
country recognizes CC-BY-SA but whether CC-BY-SA is suited to regulate
the use of data (its intention was doubtlessly a license for works,
not for collected facts).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM data used for X-Plane 10

2011/4/18 Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net:
 I just saw this blog post yesterday, saying that OSM data will be used
 for showing road networks in the terrain data for the X-Plane flight
 simulator in version 10.


Yes, that's cool. There is also a screenshot here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page

;-)

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-18 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Ed Avis wrote:
 To answer my own question - I guess that 'reasonably calculated to 
 make...' suggests you should include an attribution notice and ask 
 downstream users to respect it - although it doesn't mandate any 
 particular choice of licence. So we would still have the attribution 
 requirement as now.

That's also my understanding (but that one's been hashed out on talk-gb ad
tediosum).

 To return again to the possible infringements of the OSM licence - in 
 the cases where currently OSM tiles are being used without attribution, 
 I can't see any reason why requiring or enforcing attribution would 
 become easier under the ODbL rather than the current licence.

Principally, the CTs (rather than ODbL per se) make it easier for OSMF to
act, rather than the burden solely being on individual mappers. As a nice
bonus, there are zillions of solicitors who are experienced in contract
disputes, but comparatively few in copyright law. Of course, I wouldn't
disagree that it's a human problem as well, but then I'm a PD supporter. ;)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM data used for X-Plane 10

2011-04-18 Thread Alex Mauer

On 04/18/2011 11:03 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 Yes, that's cool. There is also a screenshot here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page

No, that’s a screenshot of data imported using OSM2XP.  OSM2XP is a
third-party tool which imports buildings and certain scenery objects
into X-Plane.  It doesn’t touch the roads.  Integration of OSM roads
into X-Plane proper is new.

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011/4/18 Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com:
 While I agree that there is a problem with the no votes disapearing if you 
 show the whole graph, it would be useful to show the same *range* on each 
 scale.

 I.e., as we are currently showing 10300 - 10900 on the yes scale, show 0 to 
 600 on the no scale.  This will give a much clearer indication of the trend.


no. Why? I will still be much less readable then it is now.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Thomas Davie


On 18 Apr 2011, at 18:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 2011/4/18 Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com:
 While I agree that there is a problem with the no votes disapearing if you 
 show the whole graph, it would be useful to show the same *range* on each 
 scale.
 
 I.e., as we are currently showing 10300 - 10900 on the yes scale, show 0 to 
 600 on the no scale.  This will give a much clearer indication of the trend.
 
 
 no. Why? I will still be much less readable then it is now.

Because it will show the genuine trend – at the moment, a quick glance at the 
graph would suggest that the no vote is expanding at the same rate, and at 
the same level as the yes vote.  I agree that we can't clearly show that 
they're not at the same level, because it would involve scaling the no vote 
to 1 100th of the size of the yes vote, but we can clearly show that they're 
not expanding at the same rate.

Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Nathan Edgars II


Thomas Davie wrote:
 
 Because it will show the genuine trend – at the moment, a quick glance at
 the graph would suggest that the no vote is expanding at the same rate,
 and at the same level as the yes vote.  I agree that we can't clearly
 show that they're not at the same level, because it would involve scaling
 the no vote to 1 100th of the size of the yes vote, but we can clearly
 show that they're not expanding at the same rate.
 

If you want it to be a true representation of a vote, you need to look at
only older users, not new users with their ballots already filled in.

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011/4/18 Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com:
 Because it will show the genuine trend – at the moment, a quick glance at the 
 graph would suggest that the no vote is expanding at the same rate, and at 
 the same level as the yes vote.


until today they were indeed growing at the same rate, while since a
few hours yes has become quicker.


 I agree that we can't clearly show that they're not at the same level, 
because it would involve scaling the no vote to 1 100th of the size of the 
yes vote, but we can clearly show that they're not expanding at the same rate.


This is just a simple graph. It is also important to see, how much
data the single accounts have uploaded for instance. Graphs never are
to bee viewed with a quick glance ;-)

I think you should be more confident about the other mappers who look
at this statistics (this is not a graph to show at the prime time news
in tv).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread Steve Coast


Aren't you a few days late? :-)

On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote:

For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with
nothing but a checkbox on a web form...

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Thomas Davie


On 18 Apr 2011, at 19:03, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

 
 Thomas Davie wrote:
 
 Because it will show the genuine trend – at the moment, a quick glance at
 the graph would suggest that the no vote is expanding at the same rate,
 and at the same level as the yes vote.  I agree that we can't clearly
 show that they're not at the same level, because it would involve scaling
 the no vote to 1 100th of the size of the yes vote, but we can clearly
 show that they're not expanding at the same rate.
 
 
 If you want it to be a true representation of a vote, you need to look at
 only older users, not new users with their ballots already filled in.

I believe this graph is already looking at exactly that.

Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread John F. Eldredge

This year, the deadline for filing the Federal income-tax return in the USA is 
April 18th, and some states have probably altered their schedules to match.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
From  :mailto:st...@asklater.com
Date  :Mon Apr 18 13:29:00 America/Chicago 2011


Aren't you a few days late? :-)

On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote:
 For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with
 nothing but a checkbox on a web form...

 Toby

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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-18 Thread Steve Coast


And there was me rushing to have it done by the 15th...


On 4/18/2011 11:35 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

This year, the deadline for filing the Federal income-tax return in the USA is 
April 18th, and some states have probably altered their schedules to match.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
 From  :mailto:st...@asklater.com
Date  :Mon Apr 18 13:29:00 America/Chicago 2011


Aren't you a few days late? :-)

On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote:

For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with
nothing but a checkbox on a web form...

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Thomas Davie

  I agree that we can't clearly show that they're not at the same level, 
 because it would involve scaling the no vote to 1 100th of the size of the 
 yes vote, but we can clearly show that they're not expanding at the same 
 rate.
 
 
 This is just a simple graph. It is also important to see, how much
 data the single accounts have uploaded for instance. Graphs never are
 to bee viewed with a quick glance ;-)

On the contrary – the entire purpose of a graph is to make data understandable 
quickly.

 I think you should be more confident about the other mappers who look
 at this statistics (this is not a graph to show at the prime time news
 in tv).

That doesn't mean that it should be a graph that deliberately doesn't clarify 
the data it's meant to clarify.

Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Ben Laenen

Nathan Edgars II wrote:
 Thomas Davie wrote:
  Because it will show the genuine trend – at the moment, a quick glance at
  the graph would suggest that the no vote is expanding at the same rate,
  and at the same level as the yes vote.  I agree that we can't clearly
  show that they're not at the same level, because it would involve scaling
  the no vote to 1 100th of the size of the yes vote, but we can clearly
  show that they're not expanding at the same rate.
 
 If you want it to be a true representation of a vote, you need to look at
 only older users, not new users with their ballots already filled in.

And to really get a true representation look at the amount of data these users 
represent. Etc... But use the correct graph and you can prove everything you 
want.

As a side question: how many users still need to either accept or decline?

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Toby Murray

 As a side question: how many users still need to either accept or decline?

A lot. If you look at the two files that I am using to pull data from,
you will see the users_agreed.txt file has a header in it explaining
that there are 286,582 users that signed up before the new CT was put
into place for new users last year. Just under 11,000 have voted. So
3.8% of those who can vote have voted.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 8:53 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
 ...which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of those people who never edited
 and can be switched over without incident.
and the people that accepted during the registration
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:

  To answer my own question - I guess that 'reasonably calculated to 
  make...' suggests you should include an attribution notice and ask 
  downstream users to respect it - although it doesn't mandate any 
  particular choice of licence. So we would still have the
  attribution requirement as now.  
 
 That's also my understanding (but that one's been hashed out on
 talk-gb ad tediosum).

So the new licence is not clear to a majority of mappers concerning
these points - derived works, produced works, need for attribution.
So why are adopting something that we don't understand?

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 13:49:19 -0500
Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:

  As a side question: how many users still need to either accept or
  decline?
 
 A lot. If you look at the two files that I am using to pull data from,
 you will see the users_agreed.txt file has a header in it explaining
 that there are 286,582 users that signed up before the new CT was put
 into place for new users last year. Just under 11,000 have voted. So
 3.8% of those who can vote have voted.
 
 Toby
 

So no data yet can be said to reach statistical significance.

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 18:35 +0100, Thomas Davie wrote:

 While I agree that there is a problem with the no votes disapearing if
 you show the whole graph, it would be useful to show the same *range*
 on each scale. 

I actually meant that the 2 graphs had different scales.  When youre
showing numbers upto 80, fair enough use a scale of 0-100, but dont use
0-100 on one and 0-120 on the other, and call it an even comparison.
Skewing graphs is a 5th-grade maths lesson.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Dermot McNally

On 19 April 2011 00:08, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote:

 I actually meant that the 2 graphs had different scales.  When youre
 showing numbers upto 80, fair enough use a scale of 0-100, but dont use
 0-100 on one and 0-120 on the other, and call it an even comparison.
 Skewing graphs is a 5th-grade maths lesson.

I didn't see anybody call it an even comparison. The graphing tool use
is, as far as I know, choosing its own scale for each line more or
less as a consequence of its core purpose of graphing server stats.
Those are not comparison graphs, just two graphs that happen to sit on
the same axes. We have to do our own mental processing.

But even with different scales, the wedge shape that's opening up
between the lines tells us all we need to know. We could play with the
scale to see how quickly it's happening, but that's about all.

Dermot

-- 
--
Igaühel on siin oma laul
ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 11:53 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:
 ...which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of those people who never 
 edited and can be switched over without incident.

That sounds like the thinking of the parties in a real vote, 'if
everyone who didnt vote, voted for us, we would have wiped the floor'
Changing that 70% doesnt have any 'incident' but they can hardly be
counted has casting their vote either way.  This means that if 30% are
active users, 3.8% means just over 12% of people have voted.

David

 On 4/18/2011 11:49 AM, Toby Murray wrote:
  As a side question: how many users still need to either accept or decline?
  A lot. If you look at the two files that I am using to pull data from,
  you will see the users_agreed.txt file has a header in it explaining
  that there are 286,582 users that signed up before the new CT was put
  into place for new users last year. Just under 11,000 have voted. So
  3.8% of those who can vote have voted.
 
  Toby
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-18 Thread Anthony

On Apr 18, 2011 9:30 AM, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote:
 On 18 April 2011 05:05, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
 Frederik Ramm writes:
   No. To get access to (at least TeleAtlas's or Navteq's) data you will
   have to sign an agreement that binds you to much more than just plain
   copyright.

 Did you sign an agreement to use your personal navigation device?
 Almost certainly not. So what's to stop you from reverse-engineering
 the data files, and publishing them?

 Copyright.

 DRM.

When has DRM ever stopped anyone from anything?

Sans copyright protection, it only takes one person to crack the DRM and
release the files for free on the Internet.
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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-18 Thread Richard Weait

http://rweait.dev.openstreetmap.org/changeusersstacked-year.png

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-18 Thread Dirk-Lüder Kreie

Am 17.04.2011 10:17, schrieb Ed Avis:
 andrzej zaborowski balrogg at gmail.com writes:
 
 I know a relatively big project that's currently using OSM data under
 CC-By-SA and may be in a nasty surprise when they find OSM is no
 longer suitable.
 
 Fortunately, there is an easy way to fix this: keep CC-BY-SA available as an
 option in addition to ODbL.
 
That's precisely what's going to happen, with or without license change.
The only difference being that the CC-By-SA version not being updated by
official OSM anymore.

No data will be lost to the world.

Some data will be lost to the ODbL OSM should the change go through (and
to me it looks like it will).

But the ODbL will enable more users to use OSM data without so much
legal hassle.

The optimum in my opinion would be to go entirely PD/CC0 as it would
enable maximum use of OSM data (as in our projects mission statement),
and the protection would come from fast updates and large community
workpower.

So I accepted the new CT, and the new license by declaring my edits to
be in the Public Domain, and I can only encourage you and everyone else
to do the same, because that is the only sane way forward for the
project, even if we have to remap parts of the world we can't take with us.

I'm not taking that lightly, especially like it is in the case of
Australia, but there are multiple ways for Australians out of this,
including, but by no means limited to, a judicial process. (Have someone
copy a small amount of user generated CC-By-SA-Map to PD Project and set
a precedent in Court, I'm almost certain you'd get money from the OSMF
legal fund to get that cleared.)
-- 

Dirk-Lüder Deelkar Kreie
Bremen - 53.0901°N 8.7868°E



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Re: [OSM-talk] Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.

2011-04-18 Thread Nathan Edgars II


jgrocha wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Recently, when I try to upload my edits, the server (or JOSM?) is
 reporting:
 Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.
 then it waits 10 seconds and continues afterwards.
 
 Is this some kind of overload protection mechanism on the server side?
 Is the server been to busy? Or it is on the JOSM client?
 

This means that the server returns something other than thank you sir, may
I have another and JOSM waits a bit and tries again. I too have been
getting it a lot more often in the past few days, along with the occasional
error when downloading an object or area.

--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Waiting-10-seconds-OK-trying-again-tp6282958p6285804.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-18 Thread Richard Weait

2011/4/18 Dirk-Lüder Kreie osm-l...@deelkar.net:

I should note that I find the bulk of your email to be reasonable and
thoughtful, whether I agree with specific points or not.  So it
appears now that I'm picking on you by singling out one point from
your reasonable email.  Sorry.  :-)

[ ... ]
 (Have someone
 copy a small amount of user generated CC-By-SA-Map to PD Project and set
 a precedent in Court, I'm almost certain you'd get money from the OSMF
 legal fund to get that cleared.)

That seems like a poor use of the limited OSMF funds.  I'd rather see
outreach, servers, bandwidth and other things before seeing our
donations go to lawyers for a test case.  Funding both sides (!) of a
vigorous litigation, is likely to be a $200,000 bill at a rock-bottom
bare minimum.  It's likely to go to millions on each side.  And the
litigation must be vigorous and competent and complete, because one
can not just agree to a settlement between friendly parties and expect
that to carry weight as a precedent.

I would hope that the OSM community would agree and not give serious
consideration to funding a test case.

Again, I apologize for focusing on this single point from your email.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-18 Thread Anders Arnholm

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

2011-04-17 23:54, Frederik Ramm skrev:

 No. To get access to (at least TeleAtlas's or Navteq's) data you will
 have to sign an agreement that binds you to much more than just plain
 copyright.

You just have to get into a store and give them money to get access to
the data, or at least parts of it. It's not in a raw form thou. The
whole idea is to make the data possible for customers to buy in shops.

/ Balp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk2tGCoACgkQtbR3SXmySrcDigCfZbt/NnZRQ7e8Gq9S6ViMuX1r
4iIAoKL0gHwpddI5iplB/vLXgTundrOI
=EZXi
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse Wandelroutes

2011-04-18 Thread Roeland Douma


Het is geen gewone SQL, maar je mag spatiele queries gaan maken.

Lees http://postgis.refractions.net/documentation/manual-1.5/ eens door 
:)


Cheers,
--Roeland

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:28:47 +0200, Robert Elsenaar wrote:

Om mijn vraag wat te specificeren:

Ik gebruik:
SELECT id, tags - 'name', tstamp
FROM relations
WHERE tags @ 'type=route' AND tags @ 'network=nwn'
ORDER BY tstamp

en nu wil ik deze afschermen tot alleen de relaties met ways in
nederland.
Ik zie elders deze query gebruikt worden:
SELECT way
FROM planet_osm_polygon
WHERE admin_level='2'
AND name='Nederland'

Hoe kan ik die twee nu eenvoudig combineren?
Is er een SQL guru aanwezig die dat kan vertellen?

groet
Robert

 Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:44 PM

 [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse Wandelroutes

Heren,

Met hulp en in navolging op Rullzer ben ik begonnen om de Nederlandse
Wandelroutes in een pagina te controleren. Ik hoop hiermee de
inzichtelijkheid hiervan te verhogen. En wie weet wat de toekomst
brengt. De eerste ervaringen met Python (lijkt op php) en PostgreSQL
(lijkt op mySQL) zijn positief. Ik heb jaren, voor het
Joomla-tijdperk, een 4000+page database georiënteerde duikers info
site opgezet en gerund en lijkt me leuk om hier nu ook weer iets 
leuks

van te maken. Wie weet wat de toekomst brengt.

De eerste resultaten [1] en de eerste vragen hebben reeds het licht
gezien.
Kan iemand vertellen hoe ik de huidige lijst kan filteren zodat 
alleen

de wandelroutes overblijven waarvan minstens een deel in Nederland
ligt?

Alvast bedankt voor de hulp

Robert

[1]:



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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-18 Thread Roeland Douma

Hey!

Lennard en ik zijn een tijdje terug druk bezig geweest met woonplaats
(en dus ook gemeente) grenzen[1]. Je schema zoals je het beschrijft
klopt wel zoals je kan zien op [2].
Echter als je de hiërarchie wil behouden zou ik een admin_level=12
introduceren en daarvan dan buurten maken. Het slaat natuurlijk nergens
op om alles netjes met admin_levels te doen en dan buurten met een
andere tag. Dat het dan niet word opgepikt door nominatim word opgepikt
is jammer maar dan moet die gefixed worden en niet de data omgetagd
(zelfde geld voor die verschrikkelijke is_in tags, maar dat is een ander
verhaal).

Een gemeente met stadsdelen kan wel degelijk ook woonplaatsen hebben.
De gemeente Amsterdam heeft 2 woonplaatsen (Amsterdam en Amsterdam
Zuidoost) en de woonplaats Amsterdam heeft dan weer verschillende
stadsdelen.

Kortom ik ben meer voor uitbreiden van admin_level dan voor het opeens
overspringen naar andere tags.

Groet,
--Roeland

[1] http://woonplaatsgrenzen.openstreetmap.nl
[2]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Admin_level#11_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:27:05 +0200, Oliver Heesakkers wrote:

Ik probeer structuur te vinden in de huidige manier waarop
stadsdelen, wijken en buurten getagged worden en zouden moeten
worden.

Op het moment zie ik dat veel buurten getagged worden als 'suburb',
hetgeen volgens mij geen correct gebruik van die tag is.

Ik heb de CBS 2008 gemeente, wijk en buurten informatie er even
bijgepakt en vergeleken met de admin_levels zoals ze worden
weergegeven op
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=administrative

Het CBS kent gemeenten (admin_level 8), wijken en buurten. Het CBS
rekent ook stadsdelen (admin_level 9), zoals veel grote steden in
Nederland die kennen, tot wijken, maar in de meeste steden met
stadsdelen worden de stadsdelen verdeeld in wijken (admin_level 11)
en

de wijken daarna in buurten.

Voor die buurten is er dan dus geen admin_level beschikbaar. Op zich
is dat geen probleem als er maar een tag is die recht aan de status
van die buurten. place:suburb is dat niet, aangezien suburb ook kan
bestaan uit meerdere buurten. Een suburb is volgens mij meer een type
wijk (rand van de stad, nieuwbouw / vinex). Een onderscheid dat in
Nederland voor zover ik weet niet wordt gemaakt.

Voor de volledigheid admin_level 10: Als ik het goed begrijp kan een
level 10 (woonplaatsen) niet voorkomen als je level 9 gebruikt. level
10 zou bijvoorbeeld zijn Amerongen, Doorn, Maarn binnen de gemeente
Utrechtse Heuvelrug. Voorzover die woonplaatsen dan wijken hebben
kunnen die in admin_level 11 vallen. Daarvoor voldoet het huidige
systeem dus.

Wat ik wil:
1. place:suburb verwijderen uit het Nederlandse territorium
2. Een tag om buurten (in steden) te beschrijven. Te definieren als
Gebieden kleiner dan een wijk (admin_level 11) die een naam dragen
vanuit de geschiedenis, en/of die de naam hebben gekregen tijdens een
ontwikkelingsproject. place:neighbo(u)rhood lijkt dan een sterke
kandidaat. De key place dient gebruikt te worden om nominatim e.d.
goed te kunnen voorzien.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Neighbourhood

Voorbeelden:
admin_level 8: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Eindhoven
admin_level 9: Zuidoost, Prins Alexander, Woensel-Zuid
admin_level 10: N/A, N/A, N/A
admin_level 11: Gaasperdam, Ommoord, Oud-Woensel
place:neighbo(u)rhood: Holendrecht, Varenbuurt, Hemelrijken

NB: Amsterdam lijkt in de meeste gevallen geen wijken te hebben maar
rechtstreeks van stadsdelen naar buurten te springen (West --
Admiralenbuurt). Gaasperdam is daar dan weer een uitzondering op.

Internationaal is dit onderwerp ook in beweging:
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=11885

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2011-April/007339.html

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse Wandelroutes



Je wordt bedankt ;-)

Als dyslectisch persoon is dat altijd al mijn hobby. ;-)

Robert

Citeren Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com:


Het is geen gewone SQL, maar je mag spatiele queries gaan maken.

Lees http://postgis.refractions.net/documentation/manual-1.5/ eens door :)

Cheers,
--Roeland

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:28:47 +0200, Robert Elsenaar wrote:

Om mijn vraag wat te specificeren:

Ik gebruik:
SELECT id, tags - 'name', tstamp
FROM relations
WHERE tags @ 'type=route' AND tags @ 'network=nwn'
ORDER BY tstamp

en nu wil ik deze afschermen tot alleen de relaties met ways in
nederland.
Ik zie elders deze query gebruikt worden:
SELECT way
FROM planet_osm_polygon
WHERE admin_level='2'
AND name='Nederland'

Hoe kan ik die twee nu eenvoudig combineren?
Is er een SQL guru aanwezig die dat kan vertellen?

groet
Robert

Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:44 PM

[OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse Wandelroutes

Heren,

Met hulp en in navolging op Rullzer ben ik begonnen om de Nederlandse
Wandelroutes in een pagina te controleren. Ik hoop hiermee de
inzichtelijkheid hiervan te verhogen. En wie weet wat de toekomst
brengt. De eerste ervaringen met Python (lijkt op php) en PostgreSQL
(lijkt op mySQL) zijn positief. Ik heb jaren, voor het
Joomla-tijdperk, een 4000+page database georiënteerde duikers info
site opgezet en gerund en lijkt me leuk om hier nu ook weer iets leuks
van te maken. Wie weet wat de toekomst brengt.

De eerste resultaten [1] en de eerste vragen hebben reeds het licht
gezien.
Kan iemand vertellen hoe ik de huidige lijst kan filteren zodat alleen
de wandelroutes overblijven waarvan minstens een deel in Nederland
ligt?

Alvast bedankt voor de hulp

Robert

[1]:



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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] POI's



Thx,
Kan ik de Stripclubs tenminste wer vinden. ;-)

Robert


Citeren Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com:


Hij doet het weer :)

Groet,
--Roeland

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:48:04 +0200, Lennard wrote:

On 17-4-2011 17:46, Rob wrote:

poiexport draait niet op mijndev maar op productie, dat even terzijde..
ik heb helaas alleen lees rechten op die folder..
dit moet Rullzer maar even oppakken


Ik heb split al vervangen door explode. Dat is echter niet genoeg.



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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

Roeland,

Is dit ook nog een actief project of is deze reeds afgerond?

Robert

Citeren Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com:

Hey!

Kortom ik ben meer voor uitbreiden van admin_level dan voor het opeens
overspringen naar andere tags.

Groet,
--Roeland

[1] http://woonplaatsgrenzen.openstreetmap.nl
[2]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Admin_level#11_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:27:05 +0200, Oliver Heesakkers wrote:

Ik probeer structuur te vinden in de huidige manier waarop
stadsdelen, wijken en buurten getagged worden en zouden moeten worden.

Op het moment zie ik dat veel buurten getagged worden als 'suburb',
hetgeen volgens mij geen correct gebruik van die tag is.

NB: Amsterdam lijkt in de meeste gevallen geen wijken te hebben maar
rechtstreeks van stadsdelen naar buurten te springen (West --
Admiralenbuurt). Gaasperdam is daar dan weer een uitzondering op.

Internationaal is dit onderwerp ook in beweging:
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=11885

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2011-April/007339.html

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] POI's

2011-04-18 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Kunnen we hier misschien de categorie Oplaadpunten aan toevoegen?

amenity=charging_station
of
amenity=fuel met fuel:electricity=yes

Groet,
Floris

2011/4/18  rob...@elsenaar.info:

 Thx,
 Kan ik de Stripclubs tenminste wer vinden. ;-)

 Robert


 Citeren Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com:

 Hij doet het weer :)

 Groet,
 --Roeland

 On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:48:04 +0200, Lennard wrote:

 On 17-4-2011 17:46, Rob wrote:

 poiexport draait niet op mijndev maar op productie, dat even terzijde..
 ik heb helaas alleen lees rechten op die folder..
 dit moet Rullzer maar even oppakken

 Ik heb split al vervangen door explode. Dat is echter niet genoeg.


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 x

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] POI's




Ja .. hallo ...

Je gaat ons toch niet vertellen dat een OSM Mappende Fietsers met  
ELECTRISCHE fietsen rond rijden .. toch?


Ik moet het moment nog beleven dat ik al wandelend langs een dergelijk  
oplaadpunt loop en daar Ldp, Ligfietser of zelfs Noordfiets zie staan.  
Ik zou onvoldoende batterijen voor mijn fototoestel hebben .  
Hahahahaha.


Groetjes en sorry dat ik mijn fantasie zo ongegeneerd de vrij loop liet. :-)

ZMWandelaar

Citeren Floris Looijesteijn o...@floris.nu:


Kunnen we hier misschien de categorie Oplaadpunten aan toevoegen?

amenity=charging_station
of
amenity=fuel met fuel:electricity=yes

Groet,
Floris

2011/4/18  rob...@elsenaar.info:


Thx,
Kan ik de Stripclubs tenminste wer vinden. ;-)

Robert


Citeren Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com:


Hij doet het weer :)

Groet,
--Roeland

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:48:04 +0200, Lennard wrote:


On 17-4-2011 17:46, Rob wrote:


poiexport draait niet op mijndev maar op productie, dat even terzijde..
ik heb helaas alleen lees rechten op die folder..
dit moet Rullzer maar even oppakken


Ik heb split al vervangen door explode. Dat is echter niet genoeg.



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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] POI's

2011-04-18 Thread Andre Engels

2011/4/18  rob...@elsenaar.info:

 Je gaat ons toch niet vertellen dat een OSM Mappende Fietsers met
 ELECTRISCHE fietsen rond rijden .. toch?

 Ik moet het moment nog beleven dat ik al wandelend langs een dergelijk
 oplaadpunt loop en daar Ldp, Ligfietser of zelfs Noordfiets zie staan. Ik
 zou onvoldoende batterijen voor mijn fototoestel hebben . Hahahahaha.

Dan moet je ook oplaadbare batterijen nemen!

-- 
André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] POI's

2011-04-18 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Nee, dit gaat om auto oplaadpunten, alhoewel ze op bijvoorbeeld het
Sciencepark steevast in beslag worden genomen door scooters.

Die dingen springen hier in Amsterdam als paddestoelen uit de grond
tegenwoordig.

Groet,
Floris

2011/4/18  rob...@elsenaar.info:


 Ja .. hallo ...

 Je gaat ons toch niet vertellen dat een OSM Mappende Fietsers met
 ELECTRISCHE fietsen rond rijden .. toch?

 Ik moet het moment nog beleven dat ik al wandelend langs een dergelijk
 oplaadpunt loop en daar Ldp, Ligfietser of zelfs Noordfiets zie staan. Ik
 zou onvoldoende batterijen voor mijn fototoestel hebben . Hahahahaha.

 Groetjes en sorry dat ik mijn fantasie zo ongegeneerd de vrij loop liet. :-)

 ZMWandelaar

 Citeren Floris Looijesteijn o...@floris.nu:

 Kunnen we hier misschien de categorie Oplaadpunten aan toevoegen?

 amenity=charging_station
 of
 amenity=fuel met fuel:electricity=yes

 Groet,
 Floris

 2011/4/18  rob...@elsenaar.info:

 Thx,
 Kan ik de Stripclubs tenminste wer vinden. ;-)

 Robert


 Citeren Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com:

 Hij doet het weer :)

 Groet,
 --Roeland

 On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:48:04 +0200, Lennard wrote:

 On 17-4-2011 17:46, Rob wrote:

 poiexport draait niet op mijndev maar op productie, dat even
 terzijde..
 ik heb helaas alleen lees rechten op die folder..
 dit moet Rullzer maar even oppakken

 Ik heb split al vervangen door explode. Dat is echter niet genoeg.


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 x

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] POI's

2011-04-18 Thread Roeland Douma

Ik zal als ik thuis ben zal ik even kijken wat ik voor je kan doen.

Misschien maar een groen thema-kaartje maken ook?

Groet,
--Roeland

On Monday 18 April 2011 16:43:01 Floris Looijesteijn wrote:
 Nee, dit gaat om auto oplaadpunten, alhoewel ze op bijvoorbeeld het
 Sciencepark steevast in beslag worden genomen door scooters.
 
 Die dingen springen hier in Amsterdam als paddestoelen uit de grond
 tegenwoordig.
 
 Groet,
 Floris
 
 2011/4/18  rob...@elsenaar.info:
  Ja .. hallo ...
  
  Je gaat ons toch niet vertellen dat een OSM Mappende Fietsers met
  ELECTRISCHE fietsen rond rijden .. toch?
  
  Ik moet het moment nog beleven dat ik al wandelend langs een dergelijk
  oplaadpunt loop en daar Ldp, Ligfietser of zelfs Noordfiets zie staan.
  Ik
  zou onvoldoende batterijen voor mijn fototoestel hebben .
  Hahahahaha.
  
  Groetjes en sorry dat ik mijn fantasie zo ongegeneerd de vrij loop liet.
  :-)
  
  ZMWandelaar
  
  Citeren Floris Looijesteijn o...@floris.nu:
  Kunnen we hier misschien de categorie Oplaadpunten aan toevoegen?
  
  amenity=charging_station
  of
  amenity=fuel met fuel:electricity=yes
  
  Groet,
  Floris
  
  2011/4/18  rob...@elsenaar.info:
  Thx,
  Kan ik de Stripclubs tenminste wer vinden. ;-)
  
  Robert
  
  Citeren Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com:
  Hij doet het weer :)
  
  Groet,
  --Roeland
  
  On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:48:04 +0200, Lennard wrote:
  On 17-4-2011 17:46, Rob wrote:
  poiexport draait niet op mijndev maar op productie, dat even
  terzijde..
  ik heb helaas alleen lees rechten op die folder..
  dit moet Rullzer maar even oppakken
  
  Ik heb split al vervangen door explode. Dat is echter niet
  genoeg.
  
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-18 Thread Lennard


On 18-4-2011 9:47, Roeland Douma wrote:


Echter als je de hiërarchie wil behouden zou ik een admin_level=12
introduceren en daarvan dan buurten maken. Het slaat natuurlijk nergens


We hebben gewoon erg veel onderverdelingen in NL. Nu al een 12 nodig? 
Poeh he.



Een gemeente met stadsdelen kan wel degelijk ook woonplaatsen hebben. De
gemeente Amsterdam heeft 2 woonplaatsen (Amsterdam en Amsterdam
Zuidoost) en de woonplaats Amsterdam heeft dan weer verschillende
stadsdelen.


Het leuke(?) aan Amsterdam is dat de woonplaats Amsterdam groter is dan 
de stadsdelen, maar een lagere orde admin_level heeft in OSM. Hetzelfde 
speelt overigens ook in Rotterdam.


Wat dat betreft hadden we woonplaatsen wellicht beter op 9 moeten hebben 
en stadsdelen/deelgemeenten op 10.



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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-18 Thread Lennard


On 18-4-2011 13:39, rob...@elsenaar.info wrote:


Roeland,

Is dit ook nog een actief project of is deze reeds afgerond?


Onze inmenging (het opvragen van woonplaatsbesluiten bij gemeenten en 
deze daarna invoeren in OSM) is op een erg laag pitje komen te staan, 
onder andere door het werk aan 3dShapes.


Er is nog wel een andere mapper die nog steeds regelmatig 
woonplaatsgrenzen invoert, maar dit dan zo te zien natekent van plannetjes.


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-18 Thread Oliver Heesakkers

On Monday 18 April 2011 20:51:32 Lennard wrote:
 On 18-4-2011 9:47, Roeland Douma wrote:
 
  Echter als je de hiërarchie wil behouden zou ik een admin_level=12
  introduceren en daarvan dan buurten maken. Het slaat natuurlijk nergens
 
 We hebben gewoon erg veel onderverdelingen in NL. Nu al een 12 nodig? 
 Poeh he.

Daar ben ik het onmiddellijk mee eens. Het is al erg genoeg dat wij
(samen met de Duitsers) een level meer nodig zouden hebben dan de rest
van de wereld (waarvan we er dan ook nog eens twee niet gebruiken!)

Is het een optie om de admin_levels te herschikken? Bijvoorbeeld de
gemeente in level 8 te zetten, de rest door te schuiven, zodat de
buurten uiteindelijk gewoon in 11 vallen?

  Een gemeente met stadsdelen kan wel degelijk ook woonplaatsen hebben. De
  gemeente Amsterdam heeft 2 woonplaatsen (Amsterdam en Amsterdam
  Zuidoost) en de woonplaats Amsterdam heeft dan weer verschillende
  stadsdelen.

Prima, de huidige admin_levels voorzien hierin.

 Het leuke(?) aan Amsterdam is dat de woonplaats Amsterdam groter is dan 
 de stadsdelen, maar een lagere orde admin_level heeft in OSM. Hetzelfde 
 speelt overigens ook in Rotterdam.
 
 Wat dat betreft hadden we woonplaatsen wellicht beter op 9 moeten hebben 
 en stadsdelen/deelgemeenten op 10.

Op het eerste gezicht lijkt me dat een logische wisseling

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-18 Thread Lennard


On 18-4-2011 23:31, Oliver Heesakkers wrote:


Daar ben ik het onmiddellijk mee eens. Het is al erg genoeg dat wij
(samen met de Duitsers) een level meer nodig zouden hebben dan de rest
van de wereld (waarvan we er dan ook nog eens twee niet gebruiken!)


Niet veel landen zijn al zo ver dat ze woonplaatsen (sommigen kennen het 
concept wellicht niet eens) en buurten doen op dat niveau.



Is het een optie om de admin_levels te herschikken? Bijvoorbeeld de
gemeente in level 8 te zetten, de rest door te schuiven, zodat de
buurten uiteindelijk gewoon in 11 vallen?


Gemeenten staan al op 8. [1]

Wat vooral belangrijk is, is dat we gelijk blijven optrekken met wat de 
meeste andere landen doen, zodat gebieden met gelijkwaardige status op 
gelijkwaardige admin_level's komen. Dit is ook erg belangrijk voor 
gebruikers van de data, zowel voor analyse als weergave.


Zo te zien zitten gemeenten vooral op 8 en 7. Ik vraag me af of je het 
Duitse Amt op 7 gelijk mag zien als een NL gemeente, qua status? 
Wellicht zijn plusregio's juist vergelijkbaar met hun Amt?



Wat dat betreft hadden we woonplaatsen wellicht beter op 9 moeten hebben
en stadsdelen/deelgemeenten op 10.


Op het eerste gezicht lijkt me dat een logische wisseling


De huidige indeling is voornamelijk ingegeven door het Duitse voorbeeld. 
Zij hebben stadsdelen/gemeentedelen zonder zelfbestuur op 10. Dat 
concept is vergelijkbaar met onze woonplaatsen. Dezelfde overweging 
zorgde ervoor dat stadsdelen *met* zelfbestuur op 9 kwamen.


In de praktijk blijkt het bij ons qua grootte net andersom. Als we het 
in OSM omdraaien, krijg je de rariteit dat een deel zonder zelfbestuur 
hoger uitkomt dan een deel met zelfbestuur. Moeten we admin_level dus 
geografisch of functioneel zien?



[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Admin_level

--
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Re: [Talk-de] OSBL-Karte wird bunter

2011-04-18 Thread Florian Lohoff

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 02:28:23PM +0200, Fabian Schmidt wrote:
 Hi,
 
 mit der Verfügbarkeit einer Liste[1] der Nutzer, die den
 Lizenzwechsel ablehnen, hab ich die Lizenzwechselkarte[2] umgefärbt
 und unterscheide jetzt drei Nutzergruppen, accept (grün), decline
 (rot) und den Rest (blau), sowie die vier daraus entstehenden
 Kombinationen. Unter der Karte findet sich die Legende und ein
 Überblick über den aktuellen Stand.
 
 Nachwievor unterliegt die Karte folgenden Einschränkungen:
 - die Karte zeigt den aktuellen Stand, was keine Rückschlüsse zulässt,
   warum welcher Nutzer in welcher Gruppe ist
 - ich betrachte weiterhin nur, welche Nutzer in der Historie der Ways
   auftauchen und damit schaue ich nicht, welche Wege gesplittet wurden und
   damit Rechte von anderen Wegen erben, welche Edits trivial sind oder wo
   nur die Lage eines Ways verändert wurde.

Ich habe den Lizenzbedingungen wiedersprochen - dennoch wird alles
Blau gezeigt ... 

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
„Für eine ausgewogene Energiepolitik über das Jahr 2020 hinaus ist die
Nutzung von Atomenergie eine Brückentechnologie und unverzichtbar. Ein
Ausstieg in zehn Jahren, wie noch unter der rot-grünen Regierung
beschlossen, kommt für die nationale Energieversorgung zu abrupt.“
Angela Merkel CDU 30.8.2009


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[Talk-de] Verkehrsmessung/Profile

2011-04-18 Thread Florian Lohoff


Hi

irgendwann wird ja sowas wie IQ routes etc mal interessant. Dafuer muesste man
die Daten ja mit Verkehrsprofilen anreichen - also peak/offpeak zeiten oder
aehnliches. Dafuer mueste man so in meiner kleinen Gedankenwelt ja
Verkehrsmessungen veranstalten d.h. wieviele Autos kommen in welcher Stunde an
welchem Wochentag da so vorbei.

Schlussendlich sind er vermutlich eher delays d.h. fahrtzeiten zu den
entsprechenden tagen/stunden.

Gibts da schon ideen? Mich interessiert da eher die erfassungs als
die tag Seite. Irgendwie kriegt man das schliesslich immer modeliert
aber wie bekommen man das ohne 4000mal die selbe Strecke gefahren zu sein
da verkehrsdaten?

Ich hatte mal ueber eine Microcontrollerbasierte zaehlung nachgedacht,
d.h. ein altes Auto schlachten und die Ultraschallsensoren aus dem PDC
missbrauchen um vom rand die Anzahl der durchgefahrenen Autos zu zaehlen.
Das koennte man einfach mal eine Woche hinhaengen und am schluss kann man
schoen die Rush-Hour/Peak zeiten ermitteln.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
„Für eine ausgewogene Energiepolitik über das Jahr 2020 hinaus ist die
Nutzung von Atomenergie eine Brückentechnologie und unverzichtbar. Ein
Ausstieg in zehn Jahren, wie noch unter der rot-grünen Regierung
beschlossen, kommt für die nationale Energieversorgung zu abrupt.“
Angela Merkel CDU 30.8.2009


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Re: [Talk-de] Where the streets have no name.... Karte zum Ausdrucken

Am 16. April 2011 21:50 schrieb o...@tappenbeck.net o...@tappenbeck.net:
 Weiß einer von Euch eine Karte die man mit der entsprechenden Darstellung
 gut und für größeren Bereich ausdrucken kann ?


Den no-name layer auf osm.org kennst Du? Evtl. kannst Du das mit
bigmap.cgi oder so ausdrucken?
http://openstreetmap.gryph.de/bigmap.cgi

Oder Walking papers?

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] OSBL-Karte wird bunter

2011-04-18 Thread Fabian Schmidt



Am 18.04.11 schrieb Florian Lohoff:


Ich habe den Lizenzbedingungen wiedersprochen - dennoch wird alles
Blau gezeigt ...


gestern 20:00 noch nicht. Ich muss mal die expire-Strategie 
überdenken/überarbeiten.



Viele Gruesse,

Fabian.

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[Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-18 Thread Frederik Ramm


Hallo,

   ich habe auf

http://fred.dev.openstreetmap.org/

ein kleines Skript gebastelt, das erstens einen Balken anzeigt, an dem 
man sehen kann, wie viele Leute seit dem Wochenende auf agree bzw. auf 
disagree geklickt haben, und das zweitens zeigt, *wer* alles auf 
disagree geklickt hat.


Bitte zwei Dinge genau beachten, damit nichts in den falschen Hals geraet:

1. Der Balken zeigt nicht die *Gesamtzahl* Zustimmer vs. Ablehner an, 
sondern nur das Verhaeltnis unter denen, die sich seit dem Wochenende 
entschieden haben. Alle, die bereits vorher zugestimmt haben, und alle, 
die im Rahmen ihrer Anmeldung bereits die CT akzeptiert haben, sind bei 
den gruenen nicht mitgezaehlt.


2. Die Nein-Entscheidung ist noch nicht endgueltig. Es waere also 
verfrueht, jetzt hinzugehen und zu sagen: Ah, der User xy1234 hat Nein 
gesagt, also loesche ich mal alle seine Daten und erfasse sie neu; es 
koennte sein, dass der User xy1234 leidglich pokert, oder beleidigt ist, 
oder einfach nur hoeflich gefragt werden will, und sich spaeter noch 
umentscheidet. Also bitte keine ueberhasteten Aktionen - wenn in Eurer 
Stadt ein Ablehner ist, dann sucht das Gespraech, findet raus, wo ihn 
der Schuh drueckt, und ob man ihn vielleicht ueberzeugen kann.


Falls ihr auf Leute trefft, die sagen: ODbL find ich im Prinzip ok, aber 
die Contributor Terms lehne ich ab, dann gibt es theoretisch die 
Moeglichkeit, dass die OSMF per Einzelfallentscheidung diesen User 
trotzdem weitermachen laesst. Das ist eine Sache, die nur in 
Ausnahmefaellen in Frage kommt, weil sie zu Laste der Freiheit 
kuenftiger Generationen in OSM geht - Daten, die ohne CT-Einverstaendnis 
in der Datenbank bleiben, werden bei einem eventuellen spaeteren 
Lizenzwechsel wieder den gleichen Stress verursachen, den wir jetzt 
haben. Aber denkbar ist es zumindest.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] OSBL-Karte wird bunter

2011-04-18 Thread Fabian Schmidt



Am 18.04.11 schrieb Florian Lohoff:


Ich habe den Lizenzbedingungen wiedersprochen - dennoch wird alles
Blau gezeigt ...


es liegt doch nicht am expire. Heute nacht haben sich 5% der Wege 
geändert, das Importskript läuft noch. Wenn Du runterscrollst, siehst Du 
das Datum der Lizenzdaten (wie gesagt gestern 20:00).



Gruß, Fabian.

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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-18 Thread Doru Julian Bugariu

Am 18.04.2011 10:46, schrieb Frederik Ramm:

 ein kleines Skript gebastelt, das erstens einen Balken anzeigt, an dem 
 man sehen kann, wie viele Leute seit dem Wochenende auf agree bzw. auf 
 disagree geklickt haben, und das zweitens zeigt, *wer* alles auf 
 disagree geklickt hat.

Wieso geht es irgendwem an, *wer* auf disagree klickt? Soll das ein
elektronischer Pranger werden, oder was? Ich finde, jeder hat das
*Recht* sich so zu entscheiden wie er mag, ohne dass er irgendjemandem
Rechenschaft schuldig ist.

Julian



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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-18 Thread Martin Czarkowski




Am 18.04.2011 11:27, schrieb Doru Julian Bugariu:

Wieso geht es irgendwem an,*wer*  auf disagree klickt?


wieso denn nicht? Stehst Du nicht zu Deiner Meinung?
Man kann die Sachen der disagree-Mapper schon mal neu erfassen, ich find 
das gut.


Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-18 Thread Chris66

Am 18.04.2011 11:32, schrieb Martin Czarkowski:

 wieso denn nicht? Stehst Du nicht zu Deiner Meinung?
 Man kann die Sachen der disagree-Mapper schon mal neu erfassen, ich find
 das gut.

Dass nur die Disagreeer aber nicht die Agreeer aufgelistet werden ist
schon ein bisschen unglücklich, finde ich auch.

So ist eine indirekte Aufforderung die Disagreeer umzustimmen oder Ihre
Sachen neu zu mappen.  ;)

Chris



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Re: [Talk-de] railway=* usage

2011/4/16 Heiko Jacobs heiko.jac...@gmx.de:
 Am 16.04.2011 18:11, schrieb Felix Hartmann:

 Das mag so beschrieben sein, hat aber mit Openstreetmap usage wenig zu
 tun. Wenn das so sein soll, dann sollte hier auch geschrieben werden dass es
 nur um Gesetzliche Regeln


+1


 Bei usage=main ist die Übersetzung Hauptbahn dagegen im deutschen
 Sprachraum genormt, eben durch die EBO, von daher ist dieser Fall denkbar
 ungeeignet dafür, ohne Diskussion einen Schnellschuss durch Ändern einer
 einzelnen Sprachversion und ohne Ändern der Definition von usage anderswo
 im Wiki zu starten


ich kann Dir da nicht folgen. Soweit ich es sehe, ist der tag in OSM
bisher nicht definiert als rechtliche Einstufung. Mit der sprachlichen
Bedeutung von Übersetzungen hat das wenig zu tun, die Bedeutung eines
Tags ergibt sich durch die Konvention der Mapper, was sie zu bedeuten
hat. Wenn für einen bestimmten Tag eine enge, rechtlich genau
definierte Bedeutung gelten soll, so spricht da nichts dagegen, nur
kann man das m.E. nicht einfach als gegeben annehmen sondern muss es
in der Beschreibung explizit vorgeben.

Andererseits ist das wohl ein Spezialtag der Pufferküsser, wo man
evtl. davon ausgehen kann, dass das nur von Leuten verwendet wird, die
die rechtliche Definition kennen. Ob das so ist, könnte man z.B. durch
Befragen der mapper herausfinden, die den tag verwendet haben.


Gruß Martin


PS: Hoffentlich werden zukünftig bessere Definitionen als die hier
vorliegende gewählt, die davon auszugehen scheint, dass alles klar
und offensichtlich ist, ohne dass man nochmal beschreiben muss, wie
die Bedeutung ist:

For describing the primary usage of a railway track. This is in
principle independant of the kind of railway. Anyway it most often is
used with railway=rail and railway=narrow_gauge.
In general distinction between main line and branch line should be
straightforward. With a few very long branch lines one might argue,
that they actualy work like a mainline. You always have to consider
the circumstances.
Distinction between the other usage types should be obvious.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:usage

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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-18 Thread Frederik Ramm


Hallo,

On 04/18/2011 11:39 AM, Chris66 wrote:

Dass nur die Disagreeer aber nicht die Agreeer aufgelistet werden ist
schon ein bisschen unglücklich, finde ich auch.


Beide Listen sind oeffentlich:

http://planet.openstreetmap.org/users_agreed/users_disagreed.txt
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/users_agreed/users_agreed.txt

Bloss dass die agreed-Liste eben 10.000 Zeilen hat und die disagreed 
bloss 60.



So ist eine indirekte Aufforderung die Disagreeer umzustimmen oder Ihre
Sachen neu zu mappen.  ;)


Ich hab mir jetzt nicht sonderlich viel bei der Sache gedacht, aber Du 
hast schon recht: Bei einem Agreer ist keinerlei Handlungsbedarf; bei 
einem Disagreer ist klar, dass wir was tun muessen (entweder umstimmen 
oder, wenn das nicht geht, neu erfassen).


On 04/18/2011 11:27 AM, Doru Julian Bugariu wrote:
 Wieso geht es irgendwem an, *wer* auf disagree klickt? Soll das ein
 elektronischer Pranger werden, oder was? Ich finde, jeder hat das
 *Recht* sich so zu entscheiden wie er mag, ohne dass er irgendjemandem
 Rechenschaft schuldig ist.

Selbstverstaendlich hat jeder das Recht, sich so zu entscheiden, wie er 
mag, und muss niemandem darueber Rechenschaft ablegen. (Abgesehen davon, 
dass es etwas unfreundlich gegenueber der Community waere, sich nun 
selbst auf Nachfrage ueberhaupt nicht zu aeussern - aber jeder hat 
selbstverstaendlich das Recht auf Unfreundlichkeit.)


Ebenso selbstverstaendlich geht es uns aber alle an, wer auf disagree 
klickt, denn deren Daten muessten ja dann entfernt werden, wenn wir auf 
ODbL umstellen. Wie soll das denn sonst gehen - wir wissen ja, dass Du 
nicht zugestimmt hast, aber wir haben Deine Daten nicht entfernt, denn 
dadurch waere das ja rausgekommen...?


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrsmessung/Profile

2011-04-18 Thread Henning Scholland

So etwas statisch zu machen ist zu ungenau. Bspw. ist auf der 
Hauptstraße eine Baustelle, quält sich alles durch die engere Umleitung 
und schon ist das statische Modell hinfällig.
Weiterhin tritt dann das Problem auf, dass du durch das Routing für eine 
Umverteilung sorgst.. Bsp. 2 parallele Straßen (Haupt- und Nebenstraße). 
Deine Auswertung ergibt, Hauptstraße ist zur Stoßzeit immer dicht, 
Nebenstraße so gut wie frei. Wenn das Navi nun diese statischen Hinweise 
berücksichtigt fahren auf einmal viele auf der Nebenstraße, die 
Verkehrslast dreht sich um.


Man müsste also ähnlich wie beim TMC dynamisch heran gehen. Für eine 
ungefähre Gleichverteilung, müsste man alle Ziele an einen Server 
übertragen und der regelt dann die Routen. Bspw. sagt es 30% der 
Autofahrern, sie sollen die Nebenstraße nutzen und 70% auf der 
Hauptstraße bleiben.


Viele Grüße,
Henning


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Re: [Talk-de] Hilfe: Leere Relation E 54 Europastraße