Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Hi Alan, I would like to go one step further. For an example of what I mean, check out my home airport, CYKZ (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.86025lon=-79.37129zoom=16). You will notice nodes for things like: - Windsocks - VASI/PAPI And other details like runway width, and surface (on the runway ways). The idea being to eventually render all the necessary details to get around an airport (as a pilot). The problem (at least here in Canada) is that Nav Canada owns the copyright to all these details, so unless you know the airport intimately it's hard to get such details. If the licence from the FAA allows, I would be willing to spend the time to import the data into OSM. I could probably go so far as to automatically add runways since I beleive the FAA publishes runway threshold lat/longs. Blake On 20/12/2010 12:59 AM, Alan Mintz wrote: I reviewed the subject airport imports in southern CA. I'm surprised that there were only 16 imports in bbox=-122,33,-115,38 given the mentioned 23000 nodes total. Must be other parts of the world that were not well-covered? They are all private facilities, and I tagged them access=private. This is probably why they were missing from earlier imports to begin with. One of the heliport was non-existent, while others were mis-placed by up to 100m. Also, none of them had identifiers (probably as a result of being small, private facilities unknown to ICAO IATA), though I was able to find FAA identifiers for them. There is a lot more useful info available in the FAA datasheets, like runway elevations/slopes/weight limits, airport elevation, magnetic variation, fuels, etc. Is anyone interested in or working on this? It would be relatively simple to scrape from the FAA datasheets or imports them from their dataset if available. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
I reviewed the subject airport imports in southern CA. I'm surprised that there were only 16 imports in bbox=-122,33,-115,38 given the mentioned 23000 nodes total. Must be other parts of the world that were not well-covered? They are all private facilities, and I tagged them access=private. This is probably why they were missing from earlier imports to begin with. One of the heliport was non-existent, while others were mis-placed by up to 100m. Also, none of them had identifiers (probably as a result of being small, private facilities unknown to ICAO IATA), though I was able to find FAA identifiers for them. There is a lot more useful info available in the FAA datasheets, like runway elevations/slopes/weight limits, airport elevation, magnetic variation, fuels, etc. Is anyone interested in or working on this? It would be relatively simple to scrape from the FAA datasheets or imports them from their dataset if available. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Hello people, today I've stumbled upon changeset 6682943 [0] in my area, and, digging further, I found its companions listed in [1]. While I believe this is valuable information, I'm quite puzzled by the import. In particular, it added nodes also to already well-mapped airports, with missing information. Compare: 1) node 1042047005, added by the import aeroway = aerodrome iata = TPS name = Trapani / Birgi Airport source = ourairports.com 2) way 74837437, pre-existing: aeroway = aerodrome closest_town = Trapani ele = 7 iata = TPS icao = LICT name = Aeroporto di Trapani-Birgi name:en = Trapani-Birgi Airport name:it = Aeroporto di Trapani-Birgi source = wikipedia type = civil;military wikipedia:en = Trapani-Birgi_Airport I suspect this kind of different quality is present elsewhere too. What do you think about reverting these changesets? Kindly, David [0]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6682943 [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6683367 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6683351 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6683322 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6682893 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6680143 -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
David wrote: big snip What do you think about reverting these changesets? I stumbled across an imported node in the middle of the existing area of airport nearest me and have deleted the node, but it being there made me review the existing mapping and I have improved my previous estimates of the car park and buildings based on the bing imagery, so the fact that the node was there made me look at the area again and has led to improvements overall. Globally, the question is whether more new airports have been added than duplicated. I'm guessing that unless a similar import had been done previously from another source then the answer is yes, in which case cleaning up the data might be better than reverting. Perhaps someone more adept with xapi than I can work out the level of duplication (and perhaps from that even a changeset to remove the duplicates)? Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:53 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: Complete lack of discussion is reason enough for a revert in my opinion. I'd suggest contacting the importer and asking him where/how he has heard the community about his plans and whether he intends to fix the problems. and also what is his source -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
In my area it looks like a couple of small rural grass strips was added. The hospital helipad was initially duplicated but then re-deleted in a subsequent changeset by the same user. So it looks like there was at least SOME attempt at de-duplicating things, even if it was done after the fact. Toby On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:53 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 12/17/10 09:43, David Paleino wrote: today I've stumbled upon changeset 6682943 [0] in my area, and, digging further, I found its companions listed in [1]. Imports on such scale should be discussed before they're done, and documented after. In this case, a discussion would probably have yielded the recommendation to automatically detect duplicates. Complete lack of discussion is reason enough for a revert in my opinion. I'd suggest contacting the importer and asking him where/how he has heard the community about his plans and whether he intends to fix the problems. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the nodes themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the data is indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front at least. Toby On Dec 17, 2010 3:10 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves law...@au-kbc.org wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:53 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: Complete lack of discussion is reason enou... and also what is his source -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://li... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
At 2010-12-17 01:22, Toby Murray wrote: The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the nodes themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the data is indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front at least. Really? I read the about page at ourairports.com and there is no mention of reproduction rights one way or the other, except that every page has the footer Copyright © 20072010 by Megginson Technologies Ltd. That aside, did someone discuss how accurate/timely the data is supposed to be? In the US, the FAA is a reasonably accurate and timely (monthly) source of information. If ourairports.com aggregates multiple timely sources, I could see the value in an ongoing import from them, but keep in mind that there are other sites that do the same thing, who might should be considered as well. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 09:43:29AM +0100, David Paleino wrote: I suspect this kind of different quality is present elsewhere too. Yes, I have removed a duplicate in my area this morning. The node added was giving no new information (it had wrong name, was only a node and missed other data already present in OSM). What do you think about reverting these changesets? +1 Whatever the data is, it can be reimported after cleaning it up. Currently it added a lot of mess. I think the import should first be cleaned up, maybe automatically, for duplicates and then applied in smaller chunks, so it can be easily reverted partially. Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On 17/12/10 09:47, Alan Mintz wrote: At 2010-12-17 01:22, Toby Murray wrote: The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the nodes themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the data is indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front at least. Really? I read the about page at ourairports.com and there is no mention of reproduction rights one way or the other, except that every page has the footer Copyright © 2007–2010 by Megginson Technologies Ltd. I messaged him about it last night when I saw the import start and he replied pointing at http://www.ourairports.com/data/ which does indeed say it is PD data. He has also listed it in the import catalogue in the wiki with a pointer to that page. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Toby Murray wrote: The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the nodes themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the data is indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front at least. A simple assertion that this is PD isn't good enough. Lots of people don't have any understanding of IP in geodata, and will happily trace from Google Maps then say I declare the result to be CC-BY/PD/CC-BY-SA/entirely my copyright/what-have-you. Pretty much the entire quantity of Wikipedia's co-ordinate data is like this, for example. We need some confidence as to the actual surveying method before being able to take a PD declaration on trust. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Massive-import-of-airports-tp5844802p5844985.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data, it should be enough. I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Le 17/12/2010 09:43, David Paleino a écrit : What do you think about reverting these changesets? +1 Imports must have been object of previous discussions, on legacy (but it seems right) and on methods and it apears the import is creating a lot of dupes. I have seen a lot of town imported in Burkina Faso on the same way, without checking the existing... It would be nice to recall some best practices on the wiki import page for : * warning the importers that they import would be subject of revert if some rules are note respected, * giving links to successfull imports as example of method * giving links of usefull tools and methods to compare contents and to clean data A proposed import page ? -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Le 17/12/2010 09:43, David Paleino a écrit : What do you think about reverting these changesets? +1 Imports must have been object of previous discussions, on legacy (but it seems right) and on methods and it apears the import is creating a lot of dupes. I have seen a lot of town imported in Burkina Faso on the same way, without checking the existing... It would be nice to recall some best practices on the wiki import page for : * warning the importers that they import would be subject of revert if some rules are note respected, * giving links to successfull imports as example of method * giving links of usefull tools and methods to compare contents and to clean data A proposed import page ? -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data, it should be enough. I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data. Someone is innocent until proven guilty. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data, it should be enough. I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data. Someone is innocent until proven guilty. Yes, which is why I said we should ask the user for more information about that data if there is some evidence to suggest it may be from a non-compatible source. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Stefan de Konink wrote: Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data, it should be enough. No. By that logic we'd never revert data which is clearly traced from infringing sources. We can, and we do. The OSM map is a single collaborative project, not a series of personal projects. Data (and core code, for that matter) should satisfy our collective standards. If I see a badly mapped road, I'll delete it and replace it with something better. Exactly the same applies to badly licensed data. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Le 17/12/2010 11:34, Stefan de Konink a écrit : On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data, it should be enough. I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data. Someone is innocent until proven guilty. It is note a question of someone's guilty. I hope people hare of good faith. People can be wrong with good faith. But a question of data and certainty of compatible licence. -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: The legal discussion makes only sense if the import is going to be accepted. And since it is not the first import about airports in OSM, this one will create more troubles than anything else. I agree with Frederik that it should be reverted. It's not because some geodata can be downloaded (freely or not) from somewhere that they can stupidly imported in OSM without any regards about existing data. Such things were possible 4 years ago, not anymore today. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Friday 17 December 2010, Stefan de Konink wrote: On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data, it should be enough. I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data. Someone is innocent until proven guilty. We are not a legal system. We are a project with funds that won't stretch very far when it comes to legal fees. robert. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
From http://www.ourairports.com/about.html , under Credits: Google Maps for providing a free, high-quality mapping API and geocoder -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
OSM is an open system. Anyone can contribute as he likes. If there is something wrong then you cannot say must be reverted It's the original author that should be convinced to revert data. Only none cooperative authors should have their date reverted All OSM-ers are equal, nor Pieren nor Frederik are more equal. Gert Gremmen - Openstreetmap.nl (alias: cetest) P Before printing, think about the environment. Van: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Pieren Verzonden: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:27 PM Aan: Richard Fairhurst CC: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: The legal discussion makes only sense if the import is going to be accepted. And since it is not the first import about airports in OSM, this one will create more troubles than anything else. I agree with Frederik that it should be reverted. It's not because some geodata can be downloaded (freely or not) from somewhere that they can stupidly imported in OSM without any regards about existing data. Such things were possible 4 years ago, not anymore today. Pieren image001.gif___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Gert, On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:49 +0100, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: OSM is an open system. Anyone can contribute as he likes. You're wrong. Anyone can contribute correct (at most of the user capabilities) non-duplicate data. Data failing to meet this criteria MUST be reverted. Otherwise we'll end up with the database full of low-quality, duplicate, useless things. The quality of OSM data is only based on peer-review. Kindly, David -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Toby Murray wrote: In my area it looks like a couple of small rural grass strips was added. The hospital helipad was initially duplicated but then re-deleted in a subsequent changeset by the same user. So it looks like there was at least SOME attempt at de-duplicating things, even if it was done after the fact. But they're forgetting the case where the original airport was mapped with the tags on a polygon, and now I can go over the entire country again removing the duplicate nodes that often have wrong names as well... Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Read my mail ! Instead of debiting the obvious! OSM is open. His right is your right ! Instead of discussing about someone, discuss WITH someone about its data quality, and do not complain in public if not anyone does not meet YOUR quality standards. In-avoidable your data will be subject to discussion also one day, and you do not like to be treated that way. If someone ignores to discuss, well that's another story. Gert Gremmen - Openstreetmap.nl (alias: cetest) Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens David Paleino Verzonden: Friday, December 17, 2010 1:18 PM Aan: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports Gert, On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:49 +0100, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: OSM is an open system. Anyone can contribute as he likes. You're wrong. Anyone can contribute correct (at most of the user capabilities) non-duplicate data. Data failing to meet this criteria MUST be reverted. Otherwise we'll end up with the database full of low-quality, duplicate, useless things. The quality of OSM data is only based on peer-review. Kindly, David -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On 17 December 2010 11:49, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: From http://www.ourairports.com/about.html , under Credits: Google Maps for providing a free, high-quality mapping API and geocoder But it also says: Marc Wick at Geonames for permission to run thousands of batch queries against his geolocation APIs; -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Le 17/12/2010 13:08, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen a écrit : OSM is an open system. Anyone can contribute as he likes. Not only... Anyone can contribute for making data beter. We don't always agree on what is beter. But we discuss it. And we generaly agree that dupes are worse. If there is something wrong then you cannot say must be reverted I can say it ! I will not do it without discussion... (In fact for technical reason I will not do it but I will suport the one who will do it after discussion and agrement) It's the original author that should be convinced to revert data. Not exactly ! If I put data in the database, I'm no more the owner. Only none cooperative authors should have their date reverted All OSM-ers are equal, nor Pieren nor Frederik are more equal. It is not a question of person but of quality of data. We are not talking of reverting somebody, but reverting a changeset. It is not a question of Pieren or Frederik or anybody, but of having discussion of the oportunity of doing a revert. And the opinion of Pieren or Frederic or anybody else is as valuable as the opinion of the author, as far as it is well-founded. OSM is not a sympathic club but a project. The aim is not to be kind (even if it doesn't arm !). Kindly yours :-) -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Am 17.12.2010 13:30, schrieb ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen: Read my mail ! Instead of debiting the obvious! I'm sorry I've to jump into this discussion. It's not only about data quality but about how we interact with each other. It's best practice at OSM to announce data imports before actually doing them, providing data samples and asking the Malinglist about Concerns. This would have brought up concerns about duplicates and we'd have found a way to get this done properly. Did the Importer ask the Malinglist about comments? did he receive some? Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Hello, I'm responsible for the massive import of airports yesterday. First of all, I would like to apologize for its outcome. My intention was to map some of the missing airports from OSM. My methodology was as follows: - Check to see what data is already in OSM. Download the data from the XAPI. - If a node in OSM was within 0.1' of a node in the ourairports.com data, then do not import. As you can see there was a flaw. Not all airports in OSM have nodes, but they use ways/areas instead. As someone pointed out on the list, I did forget step two for a few heliports, and had to revert. This is why you saw some duplicates appear, then dissapear. My second mistake was not talking to the community first, and for that I apologize. I was careful to ensure that the data did have the correct licence, which can be found at www.openstreetmap.com/data/ . If I was incorrect in assuming that Public Domain was not allowed, please let me know. Moving forward, I will be glad to revert all my changes or I can work with the community to improve the data quality. Blake ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Am 17.12.2010 15:28, schrieb Blake Crosby: I'm responsible for the massive import of airports yesterday. First of all, I would like to apologize for its outcome. Hi Blake thank you for talking to us although we ranted so bad about the import. My intention was to map some of the missing airports from OSM. My methodology was as follows: .. you data and your methodology were fine, even if they were not perfect, but who's perfect after all? My second mistake was not talking to the community first, and for that I apologize. This was the only real mistake you did but you fixed it by talking to us now. Moving forward, I will be glad to revert all my changes or I can work with the community to improve the data quality. The community has to decide it the changes should be reverted. How many nodes did you import? Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:28:26 -0500, Blake Crosby wrote: Hello, I'm responsible for the massive import of airports yesterday. First of all, I would like to apologize for its outcome. Thanks for talking here :) [..] As you can see there was a flaw. Not all airports in OSM have nodes, but they use ways/areas instead. Since you seem to have the required skills, would you mind correcting this? i.e. leave the nodes where no airport is mapped, and delete them (possibly without failing, since some of us already deleted some of them) where the airport is mapped as way/area instead. That would be great :) [..] I was careful to ensure that the data did have the correct licence, which can be found at www.openstreetmap.com/data/ . If I was incorrect in assuming that Public Domain was not allowed, please let me know. It is allowed, AFAICS. We just need to be sure that the source data *really* is in Public Domain. Thank you, David -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On 17/12/2010 9:42 AM, Peter Körner wrote: The community has to decide it the changes should be reverted. How many nodes did you import? There were 23,013 nodes: Of those: 3,680 were Heliports/Helipads 19,333 were Aerodromes The general consensus with other users who have e-mailed me directly/on this list is that I should revert the changes for which a node appears INSIDE an area defined as as helipad/aerodrome. I will begin work on that today and should have everything completed by 2300 UTC. Blake ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Blake Crosby m...@blakecrosby.com wrote: On 17/12/2010 9:42 AM, Peter Körner wrote: Blake, Thank you for responding here on the mailing list and explaining things. The community has to decide it the changes should be reverted. How many nodes did you import? There were 23,013 nodes: Of those: 3,680 were Heliports/Helipads 19,333 were Aerodromes The general consensus with other users who have e-mailed me directly/on this list is that I should revert the changes for which a node appears INSIDE an area defined as as helipad/aerodrome. That seems reasonable, except for the fact that we have concerns with the licensing of the data. We care a lot about the lineage of the data. The about page of ourairports.com lists ways they sourced the data, including using Google Maps and Wikipedia (which takes data from Google Maps). Take a look at the FAQ which explains some about this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ I very much wish the data was usable here but sadly I don't think it is because of the copyright concerns. Cheers, Katie I will begin work on that today and should have everything completed by 2300 UTC. Blake ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:31:41 -0500, Blake Crosby wrote: The general consensus with other users who have e-mailed me directly/on this list is that I should revert the changes for which a node appears INSIDE an area defined as as helipad/aerodrome. I'd say also near, not only inside, if you can :-) I will begin work on that today and should have everything completed by 2300 UTC. Great! Thank you! David -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:30 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Instead of discussing about someone, discuss WITH someone about its data quality, and do not complain in public if not anyone does not meet YOUR quality standards. In-avoidable your data will be subject to discussion also one day, and you do not like to be treated that way. If someone ignores to discuss, well that's another story. Gert Gremmen You have a strange way to inverte the roles. So WE are the bad boys because we notice a crappy mass import done by someone who did not try to discuss first and generates a lot of manual corrections for the others. I meet every day lower quality contributions but manual/local contributions and mass imports are not equal and shall be treated differently. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On 17/12/2010 10:57 AM, David Paleino wrote: I'd say also near, not only inside, if you can :-) My first round of deletions have completed (changeset 6688755). It resulted in the deletion of 921 nodes. Any of the nodes that I added that was within 0.1' of any existing node/way tagged as aeroway='aerodrome' has been removed. I will be performing the same for aeroway='helipad' shortly. I will also be asking users who've emailed me privately to see if they can confirm that the clean-up worked in their areas. Thanks for your patience. Blake ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Can you confirm that the data came from sources compliant with the license terms, and not from sources such as Google Maps that don't allow their data to be used in OSM? The information at http://www.ourairports.com/about.html indicates that at least some of the ourairports.com data came from Google. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports From :mailto:m...@blakecrosby.com Date :Fri Dec 17 11:37:10 America/Chicago 2010 On 17/12/2010 10:57 AM, David Paleino wrote: I'd say also near, not only inside, if you can :-) My first round of deletions have completed (changeset 6688755). It resulted in the deletion of 921 nodes. Any of the nodes that I added that was within 0.1' of any existing node/way tagged as aeroway='aerodrome' has been removed. I will be performing the same for aeroway='helipad' shortly. I will also be asking users who've emailed me privately to see if they can confirm that the clean-up worked in their areas. Thanks for your patience. Blake ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:37:10 -0500, Blake Crosby wrote: On 17/12/2010 10:57 AM, David Paleino wrote: I'd say also near, not only inside, if you can :-) My first round of deletions have completed (changeset 6688755). [..] I will be performing the same for aeroway='helipad' shortly. I will also be asking users who've emailed me privately to see if they can confirm that the clean-up worked in their areas. Thanks for your patience. Thank you for working into this :) David -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On 23000 nodes approximately 5 % were duplicate. Who of you will thank Blake for 95% new data ? None ! Is that a way to treat fellow OSM-ers : Crappy mass import ! Instant doubt on license ! And who is WE ? You mean I ! You speak for yourself ! Blake: thank you for your contributions, and mistakes are human. Gert Van: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Pieren Verzonden: vrijdag 17 december 2010 18:08 Aan: OSM Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:30 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Instead of discussing about someone, discuss WITH someone about its data quality, and do not complain in public if not anyone does not meet YOUR quality standards. In-avoidable your data will be subject to discussion also one day, and you do not like to be treated that way. If someone ignores to discuss, well that's another story. Gert Gremmen You have a strange way to inverte the roles. So WE are the bad boys because we notice a crappy mass import done by someone who did not try to discuss first and generates a lot of manual corrections for the others. I meet every day lower quality contributions but manual/local contributions and mass imports are not equal and shall be treated differently. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Op 17-12-10 22:33, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen schreef: Blake: thank you for your contributions, and mistakes are human. And sometimes unavoidable. For example in the case of the Dutch busstop imports. You cannot 'deduplicate' existing nodes within 5 meters because that can be the opposite of the street already. Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAk0L20YACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn3K9wCfVn4H73LDujVgNVq7i9sgHQVx c9QAnjaGHktU2rq+vAze0QixOLzOFdh+ =WHe/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:06:29 -0500 Blake Crosby m...@blakecrosby.com wrote: The Second round of deletes are complete (changeset 6689583). This resulted in 281 nodes marked as aeroway=helipad being deleted. Blake I'm removing any that I find in my area. I came home yesterday to find that a dirt strip used by agricultural planes has been upgraded to an Airport. Node id=1042093159 lat=-34.3666992; lon=146.8829956; Data set: 115FD37; User: [id:28609 name:bcrosby]; ChangeSet id: 65F93F; Timestamp: 2010-12-17T02:18:53Z, Version: 1 tags: iata= aeroway=aerodrome source=ourairports.com name=Ardlethan Airport I don't know who at ourairports.com dreamed that this was an airport, but the little sign to the place says Airstrip. I can't even confirm if it is appropriately placed, as there is no suitable aerial iamgery. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Speaking of horrible imports, when are we going to delete the environmental hazard import in the US? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/586927988/history -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Massive-import-of-airports-tp5844802p5845926.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:33 +0100, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: On 23000 nodes approximately 5 % were duplicate. Who of you will thank Blake for 95% new data ? None ! Ive seen a few thanks for the addition of the data, maybe you missed them, or only read emails further if there was criticism. I wish 95% was accurate enough for my job, imagine if 95% of your email made it to your inbox but 5% was lost, would you be thanking your ISP for the great job they did, or would you be asking them to fix the missing 5%? You wouldnt be ungrateful for the 95% you did receive, but youd prefer to know its 100% reliable. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Speaking of horrible imports, when are we going to delete the environmental hazard import in the US? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/586927988/history It should be deleted - most items here are placed in the middle of roads, sometimes a KM or 2 off, resulting in mass confusion.Also data so old, I can barely trace it back to historical items that might have once existed at the specified locations. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
Am 17.12.2010 15:24, schrieb Katie Filbert: On Dec 17, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: It's not only about data quality but about how we interact with each other. +1 +2 Best regards, Michael. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
