Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Andrew Hain]

It is not only his language ability that he overestimates. His Mediawiki 
programming has a cargo cult flavour and he has a fetish for links going to the 
“right” place 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Iotw_text/2017-43=1516878=1516754
 being a typical recent example) that he takes as far as special cases in 
templates just to satisfy it, this was the root of the current calendar 
argument.

--
Andrew

From: Richard <ricoz@gmail.com>
Sent: 30 October 2017 13:10:49
To: Tobias Knerr
Cc: talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:13:14AM +0100, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> On 28.10.2017 12:06, Andrew Hain wrote:
> > His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net
> > negative value.
>
> I have to disagree here. He's probably the single most active wiki
> contributor, and is also performing a lot of useful maintenance work
> that no one else would bother doing.

Agree.
At the same time, exactly as he is a respected and experienced
contributor the cost of every single missstep is disproportionately
higher than if "gaer3jfkk4ej555_I_want_to_fuck_OSM" does it.

An exceptionally high self esteem regarding foreign language skills
does not help either. ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/escada/diary/40120 )

> This does not mean that he should be exempt from the rules, of course.
> To the contrary: What I would hope for is consistent enforcement of the
> rules, with gradually increasing penalties. Jumping straight from spotty
> enforcement to a permanent ban, though, seems wasteful and needlessly cruel.

Rules can help - if they can be enforced by simple technical means. For some
contributors lets say a limit like
* 2 edits to a single page within 14 days
* 5 edits to talk pages per 7 days
* 1 revert per 14 days

Nothing personal but very few people here have the time to follow
dozens of changesets so this would help a lot.

Maybe for some contributors a personal blacklist banning every edit with
the word "you" in every language and declination can help.

Richard

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Ilya Zverev]

Tobias wrote:
> 
> This does not mean that he should be exempt from the rules, of course.
> To the contrary: What I would hope for is consistent enforcement of the
> rules, with gradually increasing penalties. Jumping straight from spotty
> enforcement to a permanent ban, though, seems wasteful and needlessly cruel.


I'd like to point out that in the past two and a half years Verdy p has been 
banned 7 times, one of which was permanent (but was lifted in a week):

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block=User%3AVerdy+p

Ilya
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Richard]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:13:14AM +0100, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> On 28.10.2017 12:06, Andrew Hain wrote:
> > His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net
> > negative value.
> 
> I have to disagree here. He's probably the single most active wiki
> contributor, and is also performing a lot of useful maintenance work
> that no one else would bother doing.

Agree. 
At the same time, exactly as he is a respected and experienced
contributor the cost of every single missstep is disproportionately
higher than if "gaer3jfkk4ej555_I_want_to_fuck_OSM" does it.

An exceptionally high self esteem regarding foreign language skills
does not help either. ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/escada/diary/40120 )

> This does not mean that he should be exempt from the rules, of course.
> To the contrary: What I would hope for is consistent enforcement of the
> rules, with gradually increasing penalties. Jumping straight from spotty
> enforcement to a permanent ban, though, seems wasteful and needlessly cruel.

Rules can help - if they can be enforced by simple technical means. For some
contributors lets say a limit like
* 2 edits to a single page within 14 days
* 5 edits to talk pages per 7 days
* 1 revert per 14 days

Nothing personal but very few people here have the time to follow
dozens of changesets so this would help a lot.

Maybe for some contributors a personal blacklist banning every edit with
the word "you" in every language and declination can help.

Richard

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Marcos Oliveira]

Citing Christoph (TheFive@OSM) statement here because he told me he isn't a
member of this list.

a) I do not want to blame Verdy_P, i just want to solve an issue, that is
> running now for more than 6 month.
> b) My parser technique is behind what is necessary, my attempt to make it
> better failed due to missing time.
> c) I always wanted to support the community by publishing the calendar in
> the weekly. I never intended to use it for my own website!
> d) I hope someone else can create a converter for the weekly, that
> supports the defined wiki syntax in a correct manner,
> and allows the wiki syntax to become more flexible, my Quick & Dirty
> hack is just „standing in the way“.


> Christoph
> TheFive@OpenStreetMap


2017-10-29 23:13 GMT+00:00 Tobias Knerr :

> On 28.10.2017 12:06, Andrew Hain wrote:
> > His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net
> > negative value.
>
> I have to disagree here. He's probably the single most active wiki
> contributor, and is also performing a lot of useful maintenance work
> that no one else would bother doing.
>
> His communication style needs to improve a lot, no doubt about that. But
> even so, his contributions are still a net positive for OSM.
>
> This does not mean that he should be exempt from the rules, of course.
> To the contrary: What I would hope for is consistent enforcement of the
> rules, with gradually increasing penalties. Jumping straight from spotty
> enforcement to a permanent ban, though, seems wasteful and needlessly
> cruel.
>
> Tobias
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Um Abraço,
Marcos Oliveira
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Tobias Knerr]

On 28.10.2017 12:06, Andrew Hain wrote:
> His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net
> negative value.

I have to disagree here. He's probably the single most active wiki
contributor, and is also performing a lot of useful maintenance work
that no one else would bother doing.

His communication style needs to improve a lot, no doubt about that. But
even so, his contributions are still a net positive for OSM.

This does not mean that he should be exempt from the rules, of course.
To the contrary: What I would hope for is consistent enforcement of the
rules, with gradually increasing penalties. Jumping straight from spotty
enforcement to a permanent ban, though, seems wasteful and needlessly cruel.

Tobias

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Peter Barth]

Hi,

Andrew Hain schrieb:
> It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently.
 
as someone involved, I wanted to note that *this* actually doesn't make
a good case to ban him.
 
Every second OSM regulars table someone complaints about him. There are
a tons of valid complaints, besides simplest edits to one page being 
scattered across tens of changes, no edit comments, tl-dr-discussions,...
 
So there should be either a way to make him work by the rules by e.g.
giving him concrete constraints. Or we should use one of the many other 
better cases to block him. 

Peda

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Dave F]

On 28/10/2017 21:11, ajt1...@gmail.com wrote:


If that's the case, then he's doing it wrong.  Let's take a simple 
example - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Derbyshire is supposed 
to be useful to local mappers and it should be easy to navigate to 
neighbouring counties.  Unfortunately it isn't due to the 
categorisation of English counties and the complete dogs breakfast 
that is 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Counties_in_England=history 
(primary editor Verdy p 
).


Going off topic, I know, but why is this 'Derbyshire' page even in OSM's 
wiki? It's meant to have details about how to map not trying to compete 
with Wikipedia.


DaveF


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Simon Poole]

Blake

I don't think this discussion is about if verdy_p's edits are right or
wrong, expert or novice, large or small, helpful or destructive, but
more that he completely fails to achieve any consensus, or even just
issue a heads up a reasonable time in advance, before making large scale
changes that effect lots of other wiki editors and OSM users, and is
completely unable to accept not getting his way and that extends further
than just wiki structure.

We don't work that way editing OSM data and shouldn't be acceptable for
the wiki either.

Regardless of what measures I think are appropriate, it is clear that if
something doesn't change the net result will be a perma-ban which has
been pointed out to him multiple times and will not come as a surprise .

Simon


Am 28.10.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> Greetings,
>
> As someone who has worked with Verdy P on a daily basis over the past
> few months, I find his wiki editing and organizing to be very good. He
> knows what he is doing. He is probably a top expert in wikimedia
> editing and organization, especially as it relates to the
> translateability of our wiki content, making it much more
> translateable. A very noble and critical goal.
>
> Please read his personal page on the wiki to understand his overall
> goal and why to achieve it he has made a lot (like thousands) of
> edits: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Verdy_p
>
> I understand we can all be difficult to work with at times, and
> sometimes some of us are hard to work with all the times.
>
> Verdy, I urge you to slow down on the wiki editing, listen to the
> advice and issues others are raising about your edits and interactions
> and let everyone catch up and understand your editing and organization
> improvements. You can be really hard to keep up with :) This is the
> same advice I put on your personal wiki talk page last year :)
>
> And I urge us to keep trying to find a way to understand verdy's wiki
> work and work with Verdy on the wiki. He seems to be making real,
> important, needed improvements that will make the wiki much better in
> the long term.
>
> My impression is that much of verdy's improvements are just difficult
> to understand for non wikimedia experts, difficult to explain because
> they are complicated. And add in the fact that English is not verdy's
> native language, the challenge of explaining highly technical
> wikimedia organization techniques is twice as difficult.
>
> I am no wiki expert so I can only look at from a user's perspective.
>
> He blasted through a bunch of HOT related wiki pages and I was mad he
> made a lot of changes I did not understand. I think I complained once
> and got blown off. Now that I better understand his underlying goal,
> translateability, and I see that his changes have not really affected
> anything from my user perspective, I am fine with his changes. I am ok
> with the fact that he does know a lot more about it than I do, and I
> trust his work to be improvements as I have seen it first hand as it
> relates to translations of wiki pages.
>
> Verdy, I really wish it was easier to understand what you were doing
> and it was easier to explain, I really hope you can slow down and
> focus on bringing everyone else who is concerned about your edits to
> an understanding of your methods and reasons as I will really be sad
> and you get banned from the wiki and in the long term OSM Wiki will be
> worse off without you contributing your expertise to it.
>
> Respectfully,
> Blake
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
>> I agree.
>>
>> Verdy p is very hard to work with on the wiki, and his number of edits makes 
>> his work virtually unverifyable and unrevertable. I assume has has alienated 
>> a lot of wiki contributors, including few people I know.
>>
>> Ilya
>>
>> Andrew Hain wrote:
>>> It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently. His 
>>> behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net negative 
>>> value. It is exceptionally difficult to correct any mistake that he makes 
>>> and as a result people have cut down their contributions to the wiki or 
>>> given up completely. He likes to tell people that they have made mistakes 
>>> without trying to teach them what he thinks they did wrong and obfuscates 
>>> changes with mass reformatting. It is often unclear whether he is 
>>> addressing a problem that actually exists. He often projects his own 
>>> personality deficiencies onto other people. Even in the current case where 
>>> there is software that could be made more flexible, he only offers 
>>> handwaving rather than assistance.
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Éric Gillet 
wrote:

> Can someone "claim ownership" of a wiki page for example by being the
> first to write it, or being the most close geographically to the feature
> described ?
>

I'm generally disinclined to say yes on this, by virtue of having a
Wikipedia background.  I wrote paragraphs on the March 8, 2005 Loowit
eruption, but today, I'd be hard stretched to find any remnant of my March
9th, 2005 edit regarding the same eruption

in
Wikipedia, even though I was there and affected by it.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Richard]

On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 03:53:12PM +0200, Blake Girardot wrote:

> And I urge us to keep trying to find a way to understand verdy's wiki
> work and work with Verdy on the wiki.

...
...

> My impression is that much of verdy's improvements are just difficult
> to understand for non wikimedia experts, difficult to explain because
> they are complicated. And add in the fact that English is not verdy's
> native language, the challenge of explaining highly technical
> wikimedia organization techniques is twice as difficult.

not only the edits relating to wikimedia are hard to understand.

Even though I had only one argument with him I have given up arguing 
with him. 
His bad English and awkward contortion of arguments make it no fun.

We should try a way to understand him?

Richard

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Éric Gillet 
wrote:

> 2017-10-28 14:29 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :
>
>> [Philippe Verdy's] number of edits makes his work virtually unverifyable
>> and unrevertable.
>>
>
> OSM is a do-o-cracy; blaming people (especially people investing a lot of
> time) for their implication is not the way to go.
>

Meritocracy.  And I've personally struggled with this, especially with what
is more or less the smear of trunks in North America, and my well
publicised opinion of what should qualify for trunk on my continent.

Lesser so on the slow simmering edit battle for the name=* tag.  Kinda feel
like things like name=British Columbia Highway 99 shouldn't have a name=*
value at all, in favor of ref=BC 99 (currently mapped as the name tag above
and ref=99 as of last check).  This is even internally confusing as the
Transcanada Highway values for 1 and 16 are not identified as BC highways,
but as TCH highways.  So I'd be inclined as mapping the former as ref=BC 99
without a name, and 1 and 16 as ref=CA 1 and ref=CA 16 with name=* values
reflecting their proper names, not their highway numbers. Sask suffers
similar issues, what with the Sask Trunk and Sask Provincial highways (75
automatically comes to mind thanks to Emerson; but maybe they have a Texas
thing going on with a multitude of state highway systems of differing
priority).  I get that the (relatively informal) Transcanada Highway system
is closest to the US Highway System and what provincial highways are and
that there's literally no Interstate equivalent in Canada or Mexico.  But
having the entire continent on a coherent understanding would be
appreciated.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Paul Johnson]

For someone not familiar, what seems to be the problem?  This is apparently
unrelated to Weekly OSM, which you replied, so I'm seriously confused here.

Granted, we can all be hard to work with from time to time (and I'm going
to include myself intentionally given that some of my interactions have
infamously gone to the DWG and attempting to bicycle and lane detail map
everything tertiary and higher in Portland and Oklahoma has been
occasionally been met with less than constructive criticism in regards to
relatively minor ways that some people prefer for themselves).

On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Andrew Hain <andrewhain...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

> It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently.
>
> His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net negative
> value.
>
> It is exceptionally difficult to correct any mistake that he makes and as
> a result people have cut down their contributions to the wiki or given up
> completely.
>
> He likes to tell people that they have made mistakes without trying to
> teach them what he thinks they did wrong and obfuscates changes with mass
> reformatting. It is often unclear whether he is addressing a problem that
> actually exists.
>
> He often projects his own personality deficiencies onto other people.
>
> Even in the current case where there is software that could be made more
> flexible, he only offers handwaving rather than assistance.
>
> --
> Andrew
> --
> *From:* weeklyteam <theweekly@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 28 October 2017 08:47:48
> *To:* talk@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23
>
> The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 379,
> is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of all
> things happening in the openstreetmap world:
>
> http://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/9571/
>
> Enjoy!
>
> weeklyOSM?
> who?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages
> where?: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-
> produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Ilya Zverev]

To clarify, I'm on Verdy's side regarding the calendar dispute (not that I 
follow it closely). Third-party developers should improve their wiki parsers, 
not impose restrictions on pages.

But I don't like the introduction of microformats to the calendar template, 
which he made. It made reading and updating the template source harder. See the 
example and discussion:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template_talk:Calendar#What_happened_to_the_template.3F.21

I find it strange that one month Verdy makes the template harder to use for the 
sake of some software, and the next he's complaining because other people do 
the same.

Also, many of his changes are actually good. But the number of edits is so 
high, nobody will verify all of these. This is similar to imports to OSM: 
potentially good, but hard to assess. Imports and automatic edits should be 
discussed — so why not mass wiki edits?

Finally, Verdy has edited so many pages on tagging, he's probably considering 
himself an expert on tagging. And he is appearing in proposal discussions, 
enforcing the "librarian" point of view: that accepted proposals are set in 
stone, that wiki supersedes actual mapping practices. That just looks weird and 
sidetracks discussions.

Ilya
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 28/10/2017 14:53, Blake Girardot wrote:

...

Please read his personal page on the wiki to understand his overall
goal and why to achieve it he has made a lot (like thousands) of
edits: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Verdy_p


I've read many, many screeds written by him over the last couple of 
years, but they all come across as "never mind the quality, feel the 
width".  The text that Marcos Oliveira quoted further down the thread is 
pretty typical; you could easily refute all of points raised one by one 
("I've fixed them as soon as they were discovered", "I've been very 
tolerant", "But seriously, if I ever made some temporary real mistake, 
did I ever refuse to correct it? " etc.), but it'd be a waste of time; 
communication simply would not occur - what he's written is just 
self-deluding garbage.  There are many, many times when he's been told 
that his understanding of a particular issue doesn't match people who 
are familiar with it in the real world; but he seems to lack the skills 
to process that information.



...

I understand we can all be difficult to work with at times, and
sometimes some of us are hard to work with all the times.

Verdy, I urge you to slow down on the wiki editing,


That approach has been tried a number of times (including as I 
understand it temporary bans from editing the wiki in the past).  It 
didn't work; that ship's sailed.  The only thing that will work now is a 
permanent ban.



...

And I urge us to keep trying to find a way to understand verdy's wiki
work and work with Verdy on the wiki. He seems to be making real,
important, needed improvements that will make the wiki much better in
the long term.


I see no evidence of this.  The only edits I see (such as introducing 
unnecessary layers of categories) are harmful to the documentation of 
the OSM project as a whole.



My impression is that much of verdy's improvements are just difficult
to understand for non wikimedia experts, difficult to explain because
they are complicated.


If that's the case, then he's doing it wrong.  Let's take a simple 
example - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Derbyshire is supposed to 
be useful to local mappers and it should be easy to navigate to 
neighbouring counties.  Unfortunately it isn't due to the categorisation 
of English counties and the complete dogs breakfast that is 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Counties_in_England=history 
(primary editor Verdy p ).



...

Verdy, I really wish it was easier to understand what you were doing
and it was easier to explain,


Clearly, if it isn't possible to understand what he's doing, then he's 
not doing a good job, surely?  Currently he's at 69 "contributions" so 
far today, and they all seem entirely unrelated to documenting OSM as a 
project.


I offered to intervene in the dispute involving the WeeklyOSM calendar; 
but someone else had already been given the "mediator" job of trying to 
sort things out.  I wish them all the best, but if it doesn't work out 
then I think a permanent ban is the only option.


Let's not forget what the wiki is for - it's supposed to document OSM; 
to serve mappers.  If it fails to do that - e.g. if people like Blake 
fail to understand why edits are made - then it's failed.


Best Regards,

Andy



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Michael Kugelmann]

On 28.10.2017 at 19:15 Christoph Hormann wrote:

Mapping in OSM is based on do-o-cratic principles,

[...]

But the OSM wiki as a meta-project for documenting and communicating
about mapping is not a do-o-cracy on its own.  You cannot simply invest
a lot of time in the wiki and expect your ideas about how things are
supposed to be there to supersede those of others,

[...]

Very wise words! I completely agre!
+1


Best regards,
Michael.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 28 October 2017, Éric Gillet wrote:
>
> That's what I meant by do-o-cracy, and I think it applies all the
> same to the wiki, which really is a part of the OSM project.

I was understanding do-o-cracy as a political philosophy here where 
influence and power of individuals is based on how much they do.

And i tried to explain that if you'd apply this to the OSM wiki in 
isolation it would not be able to fulfill its function in OSM in the 
long term any more.  For that influence and power of people on the wiki 
needs to be influenced by how beneficial their work is for OSM as a 
whole.  I am not claiming this is easy to determine but it should be 
the benchmark to apply - which is what i am suggesting everyone to do 
here.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Marcos Oliveira]

I will quote what Verdy_p relayed to me during one of our conversations:

Given that this is an ad nominem attack, compeltely unjustified by the fact
> that this single person completely ignores the lot of things for which I've
> received many thank-you on making the wiki internationalized, with many non
> working links fixed, helping many people having what they intended working,
> resolving many complex issues,



I prefer not reply there: such indirect attacks where I'm cited without
> even being informed, an on a mailing list space where I'm not involved,
> such thing is illusory. I've done many things for lot of other people and
> also contantly helped cleaning lots of spams on the wiki.


> He speaks about my supposed "errors", yes this may happen (like from
> everyone else), but I've fixed them as soon as they were discovered.


> He criticizes me only because he does not want to update its own website
> when he developed a broken wiki parser that is not even able to parse the
> basic standard wiki syntax correctly. I even managed to help him for his
> parser by making sure that the wiki syntax on a single page was using more
> strict rules, but he has argued that that page (the calendar) required only
> a city name and country name separated by a single comma, and thought that
> there was a fixed number of commas in the events description. Which has
> always been wrong.


> That calendar page since the beginning years ago was very open. Instead of
> fixing the result produced by its parser before publishing his external
> website (he really uses manual edit to integrate it on his German website),
> for just reviewing the content before publishing it there, he wants to add
> restrictions or complications on the wiki such as forcing users to type
> unreadable wiki code with %XX encoding (which has never been a goal), and
> removing/renaming pages that he can't parse or link correctly within his
> website, because of of its broken parser (which is just a helper used only
> by him, and completely not open, so no one else than him can help fixing
> it).


> He is arguing that this calendar is made for his site, which is wrong as
> the wiki has used the calendar for the wiki itself as a first goal, and
> then people wanted to use it to other sites: there's a standard for it, and
> it is the "microformat" which I have finally implemented (it was requested
> by others since long, even before he started his own blog site, which was
> also not working at all and unpublished in some long periods).


> I've offered him requests for improvements, but he refuses to get details
> about how to open this calendar (not just for his website, but for any
> other website that may want to republish these events announcement). I
> proposed to use templates, but as I know that his broken parser will not
> support it at all, I needed discussions with him so that we could agree on
> a format.


> I've demonstrated to him that Microformats were the solution, but it's
> true that we could go with more detailed microformats: but it would make
> the wiki editing even more complicate without custom templates to simplify
> the syntax in a way that does not require technical knowledge to make it
> work: so the Calendar page shows and details why things are done the
> current way, gives all info needed, with examples that are easy to
> reproduce: the document action initially was not there at all, and I've
> made all these documentation by taking into account his own needs.


> So I've been very tolerant about his needs and made very significant
> progresses in his direction. Still he denies that fact, as if I did nothing
> and rejected all he wanted. In fact he has made nothing to help fix the
> issues and maintain the wiki. I've documented everything I have done, and
> discussed with everyone. Also if I made some unexpected errors (often hard
> to track because this is most often an old undocumented behavior), not only
> I fixed it but also documented what was missing.


> Many things I've done are related to internationalization to make the wiki
> suitable for all languages (including those written RTL such as Arabic or
> Hebrew, or where there were assumptions about ASCII or English only when it
> was not necessary or wrong, so that the layout remains correct for
> everyone). Most of the times these are tricky cases that most wiki editors
> are unable to understand or locate in their written wikicode. I've not
> removed any content but made it accessible as much as possible to everyone.


> Without my progressive work the wiki would be like it was years ago, with
> a lot of unlinked pages, and almost no navigation, difficulties to locate
> the information. And many other tools would not even refer to the wiki as
> they do now (notably in OSM editors). And people can now really use the
> wiki in any language. Create translations when they want, find these
> translations were available, and have these translations used.


> So 

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Éric Gillet]

2017-10-28 19:15 GMT+02:00 Christoph Hormann :

> A quick note - since i think it is important to make this distinction:
>
> But the OSM wiki as a meta-project for documenting and communicating
> about mapping is not a do-o-cracy on its own.  You cannot simply invest
> a lot of time in the wiki and expect your ideas about how things are
> supposed to be there to supersede those of others, especially those who
> might not spend so much time on the wiki but on other OSM related
> things and who rightfully expect to be able to use the wiki for those
> activities.


This is a really hard subject to tackle. Everyone prefer to have their own
idea/ways validated by others. It is always hard to be corrected, or having
its work replaced by an equally valid work.
The underlying questions I believe are how much one's work should be
immutable ? Can someone "claim ownership" of a wiki page for example by
being the first to write it, or being the most close geographically to the
feature described ?

I do think that one shouldn't expect to have their ideas/work unchallenged
and untouched on OSM. As it is a public work, and
contributors/contributions are expected to be equal, the only way of
expressing their opinion is by contributing in content or discussion. If
you do neither, or fail to provide valid objections to subsequent
modifications, why would one's previous contribution prevail over later
work ?

That's what I meant by do-o-cracy, and I think it applies all the same to
the wiki, which really is a part of the OSM project.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 28 October 2017, Éric Gillet wrote:
> [...] OSM is a do-o-cracy; blaming people
> (especially people investing a lot of time) for their implication is
> not the way to go.

A quick note - since i think it is important to make this distinction:

Mapping in OSM is based on do-o-cratic principles, always subject to the 
basic principles of mapping we have of course 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/How_We_Map).

But the OSM wiki as a meta-project for documenting and communicating 
about mapping is not a do-o-cracy on its own.  You cannot simply invest 
a lot of time in the wiki and expect your ideas about how things are 
supposed to be there to supersede those of others, especially those who 
might not spend so much time on the wiki but on other OSM related 
things and who rightfully expect to be able to use the wiki for those 
activities.  The wiki is a means to facilitate better mapping and 
social interaction between mappers, not a platform to express yourself 
independent of that.

This is not meant to put blame on anyone here but i would suggest 
everyone to evaluate things under the question if what the different 
people desire and argue for has a clear benefit for OSM and the OSM 
community beyond the wiki itself.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Éric Gillet]

[Citation needed]

More seriously, could you please list multiple objective instances of "net
negative value" edits ?

Let's not jump on the bandwagon of banning someone because some disagree
with his contributions, based on this single issue presented in OSM weekly.

2017-10-28 12:06 GMT+02:00 Andrew Hain <andrewhain...@hotmail.co.uk>:

> It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently.
>
> His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net negative
> value.
>
> It is exceptionally difficult to correct any mistake that he makes and as
> a result people have cut down their contributions to the wiki or given up
> completely.
>
> He likes to tell people that they have made mistakes without trying to
> teach them what he thinks they did wrong and obfuscates changes with mass
> reformatting. It is often unclear whether he is addressing a problem that
> actually exists.
>
> He often projects his own personality deficiencies onto other people.
>
> Even in the current case where there is software that could be made more
> flexible, he only offers handwaving rather than assistance.
>
> --
> Andrew
> --
> *From:* weeklyteam <theweekly@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 28 October 2017 08:47:48
> *To:* talk@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23
>
> The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 379,
> is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of all
> things happening in the openstreetmap world:
>
> http://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/9571/
>
> Enjoy!
>
> weeklyOSM?
> who?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages
> where?: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-
> produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Éric Gillet]

2017-10-28 14:29 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :

> [Philippe Verdy's] number of edits makes his work virtually unverifyable
> and unrevertable.
>

Without regard to the (objective?) quality of his work, you convey that he
is to blame because of his important implication to the project ?
AFAIK he does not circumveit moderating processes, and not using
"automated" tools. OSM is a do-o-cracy; blaming people (especially people
investing a lot of time) for their implication is not the way to go.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Blake Girardot]

Greetings,

As someone who has worked with Verdy P on a daily basis over the past
few months, I find his wiki editing and organizing to be very good. He
knows what he is doing. He is probably a top expert in wikimedia
editing and organization, especially as it relates to the
translateability of our wiki content, making it much more
translateable. A very noble and critical goal.

Please read his personal page on the wiki to understand his overall
goal and why to achieve it he has made a lot (like thousands) of
edits: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Verdy_p

I understand we can all be difficult to work with at times, and
sometimes some of us are hard to work with all the times.

Verdy, I urge you to slow down on the wiki editing, listen to the
advice and issues others are raising about your edits and interactions
and let everyone catch up and understand your editing and organization
improvements. You can be really hard to keep up with :) This is the
same advice I put on your personal wiki talk page last year :)

And I urge us to keep trying to find a way to understand verdy's wiki
work and work with Verdy on the wiki. He seems to be making real,
important, needed improvements that will make the wiki much better in
the long term.

My impression is that much of verdy's improvements are just difficult
to understand for non wikimedia experts, difficult to explain because
they are complicated. And add in the fact that English is not verdy's
native language, the challenge of explaining highly technical
wikimedia organization techniques is twice as difficult.

I am no wiki expert so I can only look at from a user's perspective.

He blasted through a bunch of HOT related wiki pages and I was mad he
made a lot of changes I did not understand. I think I complained once
and got blown off. Now that I better understand his underlying goal,
translateability, and I see that his changes have not really affected
anything from my user perspective, I am fine with his changes. I am ok
with the fact that he does know a lot more about it than I do, and I
trust his work to be improvements as I have seen it first hand as it
relates to translations of wiki pages.

Verdy, I really wish it was easier to understand what you were doing
and it was easier to explain, I really hope you can slow down and
focus on bringing everyone else who is concerned about your edits to
an understanding of your methods and reasons as I will really be sad
and you get banned from the wiki and in the long term OSM Wiki will be
worse off without you contributing your expertise to it.

Respectfully,
Blake


On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
> I agree.
>
> Verdy p is very hard to work with on the wiki, and his number of edits makes 
> his work virtually unverifyable and unrevertable. I assume has has alienated 
> a lot of wiki contributors, including few people I know.
>
> Ilya
>
> Andrew Hain wrote:
>> It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently. His 
>> behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net negative value. 
>> It is exceptionally difficult to correct any mistake that he makes and as a 
>> result people have cut down their contributions to the wiki or given up 
>> completely. He likes to tell people that they have made mistakes without 
>> trying to teach them what he thinks they did wrong and obfuscates changes 
>> with mass reformatting. It is often unclear whether he is addressing a 
>> problem that actually exists. He often projects his own personality 
>> deficiencies onto other people. Even in the current case where there is 
>> software that could be made more flexible, he only offers handwaving rather 
>> than assistance.
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



-- 

Blake Girardot
OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
skype: jblakegirardot
Live OSM Mapper-Support channel - https://hotosm-slack.herokuapp.com/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Ilya Zverev]

I agree.

Verdy p is very hard to work with on the wiki, and his number of edits makes 
his work virtually unverifyable and unrevertable. I assume has has alienated a 
lot of wiki contributors, including few people I know.

Ilya

Andrew Hain wrote:
> It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently. His 
> behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net negative value. 
> It is exceptionally difficult to correct any mistake that he makes and as a 
> result people have cut down their contributions to the wiki or given up 
> completely. He likes to tell people that they have made mistakes without 
> trying to teach them what he thinks they did wrong and obfuscates changes 
> with mass reformatting. It is often unclear whether he is addressing a 
> problem that actually exists. He often projects his own personality 
> deficiencies onto other people. Even in the current case where there is 
> software that could be made more flexible, he only offers handwaving rather 
> than assistance.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Richard Fairhurst]

I agree absolutely. Time to ban verdy_p for continually disruptive behaviour
and an unwillingness to work with the community. 

Richard 



--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Andrew Hain]

It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently.

His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net negative value.

It is exceptionally difficult to correct any mistake that he makes and as a 
result people have cut down their contributions to the wiki or given up 
completely.

He likes to tell people that they have made mistakes without trying to teach 
them what he thinks they did wrong and obfuscates changes with mass 
reformatting. It is often unclear whether he is addressing a problem that 
actually exists.

He often projects his own personality deficiencies onto other people.

Even in the current case where there is software that could be made more 
flexible, he only offers handwaving rather than assistance.

--
Andrew

From: weeklyteam <theweekly@gmail.com>
Sent: 28 October 2017 08:47:48
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 379,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of all things 
happening in the openstreetmap world:

http://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/9571/

Enjoy!

weeklyOSM?
who?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 379,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of all things 
happening in the openstreetmap world:

http://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/9571/

Enjoy!

weeklyOSM? 
who?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk