date:20141022

Ik dacht dat JOSM de mogelijkheid had om lokaal een andere lijst van
achtergronden te geven. Ik meen mij bv. te herinneren dat ik in Frankrijk
andere servers te zien kreeg dan hier in België.

Maar het is inderdaad zo dat het heel moeilijk is om al de door jou
aangehaalde punten te weten te komen, zelfs als je er naar zoekt. En IMHO,
dat is al slechts een klein deel de mensen die beginnen mappen.

toevallig passeerde dit op blogs.openstreetmap.org, hoe je andere beelden
kan kiezen in iD en JOSM (wel in het Braziliaans, meer de tekening met
nummertjes volstaat misschien).

Ivm. het promoten: op de wiki ? op osm.be ? waar gaan de nieuwkomers dat
het snelste vinden ? Of de oldtimers die nooit deze lijst lezen ?



m



2014-10-22 10:41 GMT+02:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be:

 Zeker weten, ik vind net een PM in mijn mailbox van een nieuwe mapper
 die pas bezig is en die weet idd niet dat AGIV bestaat (en gebruiken
 meestal ook ID editor). Ik vind dit ook niet direct in de (Nl-talige) wiki.

 Maar uit die boodschap onthou ik een aantal dingen:
 - geen weet van Bing offset's
 - geen idee hoe ze dit moeten toevoegen in ID
 - blijkbaar ook geen weet van het bestaan van JOSM

 Het is dus ook wel een informatie probleem, naast een praktisch probleem.

 Probleem van een default is :

 - te lokaal
 - te zware load op de AGIV tile servers door teveel gebruikers is goed
 mogelijk

 Een waarschuwing in JOSM/ID als de laagste zoomlevel(s) geselecteerd
 worden zou niet slecht zijn.  Probleem van de BING offset (Andre heeft
 dit al eens uitgelegd) is dat de afwijking niet constant is.  Op de
 evenaar of hier, er is een verschi, dus je kan niet zomaar 1 vaste
 offset ingeven om dit te fixen.

 We zouden in ieder geval voor vlaanderen AGIV beter moeten promoten.

 Glenn

 On 22-10-14 05:17, Marc Gemis wrote:
  Zou het bing-probleem al niet opgelost kunnen worden als we AGIV
  gemakkelijker beschikbaar maken in de verschillende editors ? of zelfs
  als default voor Vlaanderen (als dat mogelijk is) ?

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data


Dag allemaal,
Ik volg hier regelmatig de discussies en zou graag ook mijn mening geven 
omdat er nogal wat misverstanden hun gang gveaan.
Ik ben van 1933 en gebruik JOSM sinds 2008 en map sinds 2011, eerst in 
Potlach, daarna op aanraden van lodde1949 gebruik ik JOSM. Als geocacher 
ben ik begonnen met wandelpaden en gedurende de wintermaanden map ik 
gebieden, straten en huizen op kaart te zetten. De laatste tijd ook de 
huisnummers vanuit AGIV GRB op een netbook in mijn luie zetel.
Om te mappen gebruikte ik in het begin, buiten GPS gegevens, de 
luchtopnames van BING, zowel voor straten als voor de gebouwen en 
gebieden. Nu heb ik in JOSM als onderliggende kaarten Bing, de 
luchtfoto's van AGIV en de GRB kaart van AGIV. Om adressen te valideren 
gebruik ik de validatie van Bpost, vooral in gemeenten met meerdere 
zonenummers.
Wat ik niet begrijp is dat men CRAB gegevens van AGIV mag inladen, maar 
dezelfde gegevens niet zou mogen overnemen van de onderliggende GRB AGIV 
kaart en die zijn toch dezelfde. Dat rechtstreeks inladen van de CRAB 
gegevens ligt trouwens totaal buiten mijn petje, zoals trouwens een deel 
van de onderwerpen die hier aan de orde komen.
Ten opzichte van GRB heeft de AGIV fotokaart ook soms wat offset, minder 
dan BING, maar toch merkbaar. Deze offset is lokaal en komt 
waarschijnlijk van de manier waarop men de foto's verbonden heeft. Er 
zijn ook plaatsen waar plots de schaduw een andere kant opgaat. 
Waarschijnlijk is in GRB de locatie van de percelen de meest juiste want 
er zijn soms gebouwen waarvan de locatie niet overeenkomt met de 
percelen, wat uiteindelijk ook wel kan. Ik kom juist terug uit Kroatië 
en heb daar 2 weken lang al de wandelingen met GPS opgenomen. Al bij al 
is er weinig verschil met de Bing gegevens.
Over het opnemen van een GPS positie heb ik ook mijn bedenkingen. Als 
geocacher heb ik daar wat ervaring mee en wil men met de normale 
apparatuur een punt opnemen, dan moet men daar uren aan besteden. Op 
mijn GARMIN Dakota20 staat er een speciale functie om zo precies 
mogelijk een punt op te nemen. Dat duurt al minuten en op het einde zegt 
het programma, kom minstens na een uur nog eens terug. ;-)
Huisnummers opgeven in een gebied waar men de gebouwen nog niet 
uitgetekend heeft vind ik ook maar niets en geeft een slordig 
eindresultaat. Ik vindt het dringender van de huizen zelf eerst op de 
kaart te zetten. Nu met AGIV kan men de huizen onmiddellijk in 2 klikken 
nummeren en andere gegevens ingeven, in JOSM is er daarvoor een goede 
plug-in. Nu vind men soms huisnummers midden van een bos.
In de grensstreek met Nederland heeft men op een bepaald ogenblik 
gegevens van 3Dshapes ingeladen maar zo te zien zonder controle. Dat is 
ook een ramp wanneer men dat gebied op kaart wil verbeteren.
Er zit ook weinig logica in de manier waarop men in sommige gemeenten de 
huisnummers uitgedeeld heeft. Het beste voorbeeld is Balen (bij Tommeke) 
, men heeft er al enkele situatie rechtgezet, maar er blijft nog wat 
werk over. Ook wanneer er bij een nummer letters bijkomen is er geen 
vaste regel.
In de GRB map zitten ook tal van fouten, soms loopt GRB vooruit op de 
fotomozaiek, soms omgekeerd. En soms staan ze allebei achter, wat soms 
ook problemen geeft. Gilbert zal mij niet tegenspreken. ;-)
Dit alles om te zeggen dat ik weinig geloof in het via programmatie de 
CRAB gegevens over te brengen.


susvhv




Le 22/10/14 11:05, Marc Gemis a écrit :
Ik dacht dat JOSM de mogelijkheid had om lokaal een andere lijst van 
achtergronden te geven. Ik meen mij bv. te herinneren dat ik in 
Frankrijk andere servers te zien kreeg dan hier in België.


Maar het is inderdaad zo dat het heel moeilijk is om al de door jou 
aangehaalde punten te weten te komen, zelfs als je er naar zoekt. En 
IMHO, dat is al slechts een klein deel de mensen die beginnen mappen.


toevallig passeerde dit op blogs.openstreetmap.org 
http://blogs.openstreetmap.org, hoe je andere beelden kan kiezen in 
iD en JOSM (wel in het Braziliaans, meer de tekening met nummertjes 
volstaat misschien).


Ivm. het promoten: op de wiki ? op osm.be http://osm.be ? waar gaan 
de nieuwkomers dat het snelste vinden ? Of de oldtimers die nooit deze 
lijst lezen ?




m



2014-10-22 10:41 GMT+02:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be 
mailto:gl...@byte-consult.be:


Zeker weten, ik vind net een PM in mijn mailbox van een nieuwe mapper
die pas bezig is en die weet idd niet dat AGIV bestaat (en gebruiken
meestal ook ID editor). Ik vind dit ook niet direct in de
(Nl-talige) wiki.

Maar uit die boodschap onthou ik een aantal dingen:
- geen weet van Bing offset's
- geen idee hoe ze dit moeten toevoegen in ID
- blijkbaar ook geen weet van het bestaan van JOSM

Het is dus ook wel een informatie probleem, naast een praktisch
probleem.

Probleem van een default is :

- te lokaal
- te zware load op de AGIV tile servers door teveel gebruikers is goed
mogelijk

Een waarschuwing

Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data

Sus,

de data van de AGIV Crab database bevat enkel de huisnummers. Die mogen we
overnemen. De gebouwen niet.
De bedoeling van al deze programmatie is niet om de gegevens automatisch in
OSM te pompen. De bedoeling is om data op een of andere manier bij de
mapper te krijgen. Die kan de gegevens dan inladen in JOSM, bewerken en
opladen.
Verder moet de programmatie de mapper ook toelaten om aan te geven wat al
gedaan is, zodat geen twee mensen hetzelfde werk gaan doen. Dit laatste
doen ze in de USA bijvoorbeeld met een task manager, net zoals HOT dat
doet. Hier is voor een andere aanpak gekozen.

Het is best mogelijk dat ik hier en daar een huisnummer in een bos heb
gezet, maar wat doe je als de luchtfoto's enkel bomen laten zien en geen
gebouw ? Ik ga de GRB kaart niet gebruiken omdat als de huizen er exact
hetzelfde uitzien in OSM, zouden we wel eens last kunnen krijgen en alles
moeten verwijderen (zie mijn eerste zin).

nog veel map plezier

m

2014-10-22 17:13 GMT+02:00 Verhoeven Fr sus...@gmail.com:

  Dag allemaal,
 Ik volg hier regelmatig de discussies en zou graag ook mijn mening geven
 omdat er nogal wat misverstanden hun gang gveaan.
 Ik ben van 1933 en gebruik JOSM sinds 2008 en map sinds 2011, eerst in
 Potlach, daarna op aanraden van lodde1949 gebruik ik JOSM. Als geocacher
 ben ik begonnen met wandelpaden en gedurende de wintermaanden map ik
 gebieden, straten en huizen op kaart te zetten. De laatste tijd ook de
 huisnummers vanuit AGIV GRB op een netbook in mijn luie zetel.
 Om te mappen gebruikte ik in het begin, buiten GPS gegevens, de
 luchtopnames van BING, zowel voor straten als voor de gebouwen en gebieden.
 Nu heb ik in JOSM als onderliggende kaarten Bing, de luchtfoto's van AGIV
 en de GRB kaart van AGIV. Om adressen te valideren gebruik ik de validatie
 van Bpost, vooral in gemeenten met meerdere zonenummers.
 Wat ik niet begrijp is dat men CRAB gegevens van AGIV mag inladen, maar
 dezelfde gegevens niet zou mogen overnemen van de onderliggende GRB AGIV
 kaart en die zijn toch dezelfde. Dat rechtstreeks inladen van de CRAB
 gegevens ligt trouwens totaal buiten mijn petje, zoals trouwens een deel
 van de onderwerpen die hier aan de orde komen.
 Ten opzichte van GRB heeft de AGIV fotokaart ook soms wat offset, minder
 dan BING, maar toch merkbaar. Deze offset is lokaal en komt waarschijnlijk
 van de manier waarop men de foto's verbonden heeft. Er zijn ook plaatsen
 waar plots de schaduw een andere kant opgaat. Waarschijnlijk is in GRB de
 locatie van de percelen de meest juiste want er zijn soms gebouwen waarvan
 de locatie niet overeenkomt met de percelen, wat uiteindelijk ook wel kan.
 Ik kom juist terug uit Kroatië en heb daar 2 weken lang al de wandelingen
 met GPS opgenomen. Al bij al is er weinig verschil met de Bing gegevens.
 Over het opnemen van een GPS positie heb ik ook mijn bedenkingen. Als
 geocacher heb ik daar wat ervaring mee en wil men met de normale apparatuur
 een punt opnemen, dan moet men daar uren aan besteden. Op mijn GARMIN
 Dakota20 staat er een speciale functie  om zo precies mogelijk een punt op
 te nemen. Dat duurt al minuten en op het einde zegt het programma, kom
 minstens na een uur nog eens terug. ;-)
 Huisnummers opgeven in een gebied waar men de gebouwen nog niet
 uitgetekend heeft vind ik ook maar niets en geeft een slordig
 eindresultaat. Ik vindt het dringender van de huizen zelf eerst op de kaart
 te zetten. Nu met AGIV kan men de huizen onmiddellijk in 2 klikken nummeren
 en andere gegevens ingeven, in JOSM is er daarvoor een goede plug-in. Nu
 vind men soms huisnummers midden van een bos.
 In de grensstreek met Nederland heeft men op een bepaald ogenblik gegevens
 van 3Dshapes ingeladen maar zo te zien zonder controle. Dat is ook een ramp
 wanneer men dat gebied op kaart wil verbeteren.
 Er zit ook weinig logica in de manier waarop men in sommige gemeenten de
 huisnummers uitgedeeld heeft. Het beste voorbeeld is Balen (bij Tommeke) ,
 men heeft er al enkele situatie rechtgezet, maar er blijft nog wat werk
 over. Ook wanneer er bij een nummer letters bijkomen is er geen vaste regel.
 In de GRB map zitten ook tal van fouten, soms loopt GRB vooruit op de
 fotomozaiek, soms omgekeerd. En soms staan ze allebei achter, wat soms ook
 problemen geeft. Gilbert zal mij niet tegenspreken. ;-)
 Dit alles om te zeggen dat ik weinig geloof in het via programmatie de
 CRAB gegevens over te brengen.

 susvhv




 Le 22/10/14 11:05, Marc Gemis a écrit :

 Ik dacht dat JOSM de mogelijkheid had om lokaal een andere lijst van
 achtergronden te geven. Ik meen mij bv. te herinneren dat ik in Frankrijk
 andere servers te zien kreeg dan hier in België.

  Maar het is inderdaad zo dat het heel moeilijk is om al de door jou
 aangehaalde punten te weten te komen, zelfs als je er naar zoekt. En IMHO,
 dat is al slechts een klein deel de mensen die beginnen mappen.

  toevallig passeerde dit op blogs.openstreetmap.org, hoe je andere
 beelden kan kiezen in iD en JOSM (wel in

Re: [OSM-talk-be] JOSM memory eater

je kan de default locatie blijkbaar wijzigen. Meer info in
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248

Ik herinner me vaag dat Gilbert dit vorig jaar al eens heeft aangehaald. Er
was toen ook een ticket geopend bij JOSM dacht ik, maar dus nog zonder
succes.
--
One can change the default location of the cache, see
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248
Wasn't there some discussion about this last year. Didn't somebody open a
ticket ?

groeten

m

2014-10-22 17:58 GMT+02:00 Verhoeven Fr sus...@gmail.com:

 Dag allemaal,

 Wanneer ik bij iemand JOSM aanbeveel voel ik mij verplicht ze te melden
 dat er een een addertje onder het gras ligt.
 Het cachegeheugen van JOSM is hier op een PC al uitgelopen in een WinXP
 tot 20 GB, jaja giga. Wat de basis partitie volledig opgevuld had met
 gevolg dat Win XP vastliep. Het heeft wel wat geduurd om de schuldige op te
 sporen.
 Dat heeft ook nefaste gevolgen wanneer men een image maakt van de basis
 partitie dat altijd maar blijft aangroeien.
 Zijt ge van het probleem niet bewust, doe een search op mercator en de
 meesten zullen verschrikt staan, ook in Ubuntu of een andere Windows is dat
 zo.
 Men kan gerust alles wat onder de folder Cache staat verwijderen. JOSM
 maakt alles terug aan en men merkt er niets van.
 Ik doe het regelmatig met een batchfile wanneer JOSM uitgeschakeld is.

 In de berichten zie ik dat er leden zijn die JOSM kunnen patchen, die
 zouden best een oplossing vinden. ;-)



 Salut,
 Lorsque je conseille à quelqu'un d'utiliser JOSM je me sens obligé de
 l'avertir que le cache de JOSM ne cesse de grandir et va jusqu'à corrompre
 un système. Sous WinXP j'ai un jour retrouvé un cache gonflé à plus de 20
 GB. C'est gênant car les images système ne cessent de grandir.
 Si vous ignorer le problème, faites une recherche sur mercator et vous
 m'en direz des nouvelles. Même problème sous Ubuntu ou les autres Windows.
 On peut sans problèmes mettre à la poubelle tout ce qui se trouve sous le
 répertoire cache de JOSM avec JOSM à l'arrêt, il refera les répertoires
 au prochain démarrage. Je le fais régulièrement avec un batchfile.

 Je vois que certains membres patchent JOSM, ils ont peut-être la solution.
 ;-)

 susvhv

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] JOSM memory eater

2014-10-22 Per discussione Sander Deryckere

Memory problems just go hand in hand with applications that have to manage
a lot of data, like JOSM. And when there's not enough memory available, it
starts swapping or caching.

Java also has automatic memory management, which means that you can't have
memory leaks (Java always cleans up the memory you don't need anymore). But
this also means that programmers don't have a lot of control over the
memory usage.  Well written C- programs will usually have better memory
management than Java programs. But it's easier to introduce bugs in your
C-program that makes everything crash.

So the combination of Java with a data-managing application might not be
the best choice, but at least it's easier to program, so development goes
faster.

The main thing you can do as a user is keeping an eye on your memory usage,
and restarting JOSM every now and then to free up some memory again.

Regards,
Sander
je kan de default locatie blijkbaar wijzigen. Meer info in
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248

Ik herinner me vaag dat Gilbert dit vorig jaar al eens heeft aangehaald. Er
was toen ook een ticket geopend bij JOSM dacht ik, maar dus nog zonder
succes.
--
One can change the default location of the cache, see
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248
Wasn't there some discussion about this last year. Didn't somebody open a
ticket ?

groeten

m

2014-10-22 17:58 GMT+02:00 Verhoeven Fr sus...@gmail.com:

 Dag allemaal,

 Wanneer ik bij iemand JOSM aanbeveel voel ik mij verplicht ze te melden
 dat er een een addertje onder het gras ligt.
 Het cachegeheugen van JOSM is hier op een PC al uitgelopen in een WinXP
 tot 20 GB, jaja giga. Wat de basis partitie volledig opgevuld had met
 gevolg dat Win XP vastliep. Het heeft wel wat geduurd om de schuldige op te
 sporen.
 Dat heeft ook nefaste gevolgen wanneer men een image maakt van de basis
 partitie dat altijd maar blijft aangroeien.
 Zijt ge van het probleem niet bewust, doe een search op mercator en de
 meesten zullen verschrikt staan, ook in Ubuntu of een andere Windows is dat
 zo.
 Men kan gerust alles wat onder de folder Cache staat verwijderen. JOSM
 maakt alles terug aan en men merkt er niets van.
 Ik doe het regelmatig met een batchfile wanneer JOSM uitgeschakeld is.

 In de berichten zie ik dat er leden zijn die JOSM kunnen patchen, die
 zouden best een oplossing vinden. ;-)



 Salut,
 Lorsque je conseille à quelqu'un d'utiliser JOSM je me sens obligé de
 l'avertir que le cache de JOSM ne cesse de grandir et va jusqu'à corrompre
 un système. Sous WinXP j'ai un jour retrouvé un cache gonflé à plus de 20
 GB. C'est gênant car les images système ne cessent de grandir.
 Si vous ignorer le problème, faites une recherche sur mercator et vous
 m'en direz des nouvelles. Même problème sous Ubuntu ou les autres Windows.
 On peut sans problèmes mettre à la poubelle tout ce qui se trouve sous le
 répertoire cache de JOSM avec JOSM à l'arrêt, il refera les répertoires
 au prochain démarrage. Je le fais régulièrement avec un batchfile.

 Je vois que certains membres patchent JOSM, ils ont peut-être la solution.
 ;-)

 susvhv

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data


Marc,
Ik teken een gebouw met als ondergrond de fotomozaïek, daarna neem ik 
als ondergrond GRB. Komt het ongeveer overeen, wat dikwijls het geval 
is, ga ik naar het volgende.  Is een groot verschil, dan ga ik terug 
naar de fotomozaïek en verbeter. Daarna neem ik het huisnummer en 
straatnaam over.

Is dat copiëren of bewerken?

sus



Le 22/10/14 18:00, Marc Gemis a écrit :

Sus,

de data van de AGIV Crab database bevat enkel de huisnummers. Die 
mogen we overnemen. De gebouwen niet.
De bedoeling van al deze programmatie is niet om de gegevens 
automatisch in OSM te pompen. De bedoeling is om data op een of andere 
manier bij de mapper te krijgen. Die kan de gegevens dan inladen in 
JOSM, bewerken en opladen.
Verder moet de programmatie de mapper ook toelaten om aan te geven wat 
al gedaan is, zodat geen twee mensen hetzelfde werk gaan doen. Dit 
laatste doen ze in de USA bijvoorbeeld met een task manager, net 
zoals HOT dat doet. Hier is voor een andere aanpak gekozen.


Het is best mogelijk dat ik hier en daar een huisnummer in een bos heb 
gezet, maar wat doe je als de luchtfoto's enkel bomen laten zien en 
geen gebouw ? Ik ga de GRB kaart niet gebruiken omdat als de huizen er 
exact hetzelfde uitzien in OSM, zouden we wel eens last kunnen krijgen 
en alles moeten verwijderen (zie mijn eerste zin).


nog veel map plezier

m




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data

2014-10-22 Per discussione Glenn Plas

Dat is eerder uw verstand gebruiken, tot nader order is dit nog OK
volgens de regering, maar je weet maar nooit wat er zal komen ;-)

Als je de locatie 'gemiddeld' positioneert denk ik dat niemand echt kan
claimen dat je kopieert.

Eigenlijk is het een beetje bullshit, want als OSM nu echt accuraat zou
zijn wat een bepaalde building betreft, en AGIV is ook accuraat, dan
moeten ze theoretisch toch bijna exact hetzelfde staan.

Dit is technisch geen copy.  Kan je dat bewijzen?  Niet echt.  Hoef je
dat te bewijzen?  Ook niet echt, iemand die klaagt zal het moeten
bewijzen dat het een copy is.  Daar zijn ook wel truuks voor , oa
express fouten maken in geometrie, een fictieve straat maken.  Een
straatnaam verkeerd spellen  easter eggs dus.

Dan land je uiteindelijk op de volgende discussie: kwa gps coordinaten,
tot welke plaats na de komma is het 'ongeveer' gelijk, en vanaf welke
plaats na de komma is het exact een copy?

Ik ben er zeker van dat nu reeds, zonder een copy van de huizen uit AGIV
er al wel een heel aantal reeds exact hetzelfde moeten staan tov. OSM,
gewoon omdat er goed werk geleverd wordt.

Wat me wel opvalt is dat de geometrie van een deel van de gebouwen niet
overeenkomt met wat ik zie in het echt, maw.  Illegaal bijgebouwd ?
Onnauwkeurige data?  Of Easter Egg op AGIV ?

Glenn


On 22-10-14 18:44, Verhoeven Fr wrote:
 Marc,
 Ik teken een gebouw met als ondergrond de fotomozaïek, daarna neem ik
 als ondergrond GRB. Komt het ongeveer overeen, wat dikwijls het geval
 is, ga ik naar het volgende.  Is een groot verschil, dan ga ik terug
 naar de fotomozaïek en verbeter. Daarna neem ik het huisnummer en
 straatnaam over.
 Is dat copiëren of bewerken?
 
 sus
 
 
 
 Le 22/10/14 18:00, Marc Gemis a écrit :
 Sus,

 de data van de AGIV Crab database bevat enkel de huisnummers. Die
 mogen we overnemen. De gebouwen niet.
 De bedoeling van al deze programmatie is niet om de gegevens
 automatisch in OSM te pompen. De bedoeling is om data op een of andere
 manier bij de mapper te krijgen. Die kan de gegevens dan inladen in
 JOSM, bewerken en opladen.
 Verder moet de programmatie de mapper ook toelaten om aan te geven wat
 al gedaan is, zodat geen twee mensen hetzelfde werk gaan doen. Dit
 laatste doen ze in de USA bijvoorbeeld met een task manager, net
 zoals HOT dat doet. Hier is voor een andere aanpak gekozen.

 Het is best mogelijk dat ik hier en daar een huisnummer in een bos heb
 gezet, maar wat doe je als de luchtfoto's enkel bomen laten zien en
 geen gebouw ? Ik ga de GRB kaart niet gebruiken omdat als de huizen er
 exact hetzelfde uitzien in OSM, zouden we wel eens last kunnen krijgen
 en alles moeten verwijderen (zie mijn eerste zin).

 nog veel map plezier

 m

 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] JOSM memory eater

Men kan de cache folder wijzigen van TMS, voor WMS vind ik niets, ook 
niet in de nieuwe JOSM versie van vandaag.
Na een remove en install van de nieuwe versie van JOSM in Ubuntu is de 
cache inhoud niet veranderd.
Voor mij is dat geen echt probleem meer, maar dat is wel een probleem 
als ik iemand aanzet om te mappen  met  JOSM  en dien geen 
systeembeheerder of kenner is.


Groeten



Le 22/10/14 18:06, Marc Gemis a écrit :
je kan de default locatie blijkbaar wijzigen. Meer info in 
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248


Ik herinner me vaag dat Gilbert dit vorig jaar al eens heeft 
aangehaald. Er was toen ook een ticket geopend bij JOSM dacht ik, maar 
dus nog zonder succes.

--
One can change the default location of the cache, see 
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248
Wasn't there some discussion about this last year. Didn't somebody 
open a ticket ?


groeten

m




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] JOSM memory eater

2014-10-22 Per discussione Jo

Klopt het dat je het niet echt over (intern) geheugen (RAM) hebt, maar wel
over schijfruimte? Je mag al die folders met nummertjes in je JOSM folder
regelmatig opruimen. Ik moet daar geregeld 50GB weghalen om weer verder te
kunnen werken.

F12

vinkje bij Expert mode zetten
Advanced Settings

Imagery.wms-cache.path

zou de juiste instelling moeten zijn.

Polyglot

Op 22 oktober 2014 19:51 schreef Verhoeven Fr sus...@gmail.com:

 Men kan de cache folder wijzigen van TMS, voor WMS vind ik niets, ook niet
 in de nieuwe JOSM versie van vandaag.
 Na een remove en install van de nieuwe versie van JOSM in Ubuntu is de
 cache inhoud niet veranderd.
 Voor mij is dat geen echt probleem meer, maar dat is wel een probleem als
 ik iemand aanzet om te mappen  met  JOSM  en dien geen systeembeheerder of
 kenner is.

 Groeten



 Le 22/10/14 18:06, Marc Gemis a écrit :

 je kan de default locatie blijkbaar wijzigen. Meer info in
 http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248

 Ik herinner me vaag dat Gilbert dit vorig jaar al eens heeft aangehaald.
 Er was toen ook een ticket geopend bij JOSM dacht ik, maar dus nog zonder
 succes.
 --
 One can change the default location of the cache, see
 http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6248
 Wasn't there some discussion about this last year. Didn't somebody open a
 ticket ?

 groeten

 m



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data


Volledig met U eens.
Dit gaat in de archieven, en als het er op aan moest komen haal ik het 
boven, maar dan is de kans groot dat ik al in de kist lig. ;-)
Voor nieuwe huizen staat er in GRB alleen maar de voorgevel op, als men 
die goed bijwerkt zit men al veilig en als men er de zwembaden bij op 
zet zit men nog beter.:-P
Oppassen voor de afritten, die staan er in GRB ook op, en die zet ik 
nooit in OSM.
En de huizen met een hofke die ze groeperen kan men ook makkelijk uit 
elkaar halen.:-D
En mijn  straatnamen worden door Bpost gevalideerd. En waar straten 
beginnen en eindigen zijn er in AGIV GRB ook fouten, of zijn dat de 
easter eggs ???


Sus


Le 22/10/14 19:29, Glenn Plas a écrit :

Dat is eerder uw verstand gebruiken, tot nader order is dit nog OK
volgens de regering, maar je weet maar nooit wat er zal komen ;-)

Als je de locatie 'gemiddeld' positioneert denk ik dat niemand echt kan
claimen dat je kopieert.

Eigenlijk is het een beetje bullshit, want als OSM nu echt accuraat zou
zijn wat een bepaalde building betreft, en AGIV is ook accuraat, dan
moeten ze theoretisch toch bijna exact hetzelfde staan.

Dit is technisch geen copy.  Kan je dat bewijzen?  Niet echt.  Hoef je
dat te bewijzen?  Ook niet echt, iemand die klaagt zal het moeten
bewijzen dat het een copy is.  Daar zijn ook wel truuks voor , oa
express fouten maken in geometrie, een fictieve straat maken.  Een
straatnaam verkeerd spellen  easter eggs dus.

Dan land je uiteindelijk op de volgende discussie: kwa gps coordinaten,
tot welke plaats na de komma is het 'ongeveer' gelijk, en vanaf welke
plaats na de komma is het exact een copy?

Ik ben er zeker van dat nu reeds, zonder een copy van de huizen uit AGIV
er al wel een heel aantal reeds exact hetzelfde moeten staan tov. OSM,
gewoon omdat er goed werk geleverd wordt.

Wat me wel opvalt is dat de geometrie van een deel van de gebouwen niet
overeenkomt met wat ik zie in het echt, maw.  Illegaal bijgebouwd ?
Onnauwkeurige data?  Of Easter Egg op AGIV ?

Glenn


On 22-10-14 18:44, Verhoeven Fr wrote:

Marc,
Ik teken een gebouw met als ondergrond de fotomozaïek, daarna neem ik
als ondergrond GRB. Komt het ongeveer overeen, wat dikwijls het geval
is, ga ik naar het volgende.  Is een groot verschil, dan ga ik terug
naar de fotomozaïek en verbeter. Daarna neem ik het huisnummer en
straatnaam over.
Is dat copiëren of bewerken?

sus





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Re: [OSM-talk-be] JOSM memory eater

2014-10-22 Per discussione Karel Adams



On 22-10-14 17:57, Jo wrote:
Klopt het dat je het niet echt over (intern) geheugen (RAM) hebt, maar 
wel over schijfruimte? Je mag al die folders met nummertjes in je JOSM 
folder regelmatig opruimen. Ik moet daar geregeld 50GB weghalen om 
weer verder te kunnen werken.


Ik ga helemaal akkoord met Sus: zo'n gehannes mag toch niet nodig zijn? 
Helaas weet ik beroepshalve maar al te goed dat java-applicaties 
dikwijls memoryvreters zijn - dat hoeft niet noodzakelijk, maar het is 
toch o zo verleidelijk om maar lekker alles in memory te doen. Python 
heeft daar ook een handje van weg trouwens, en ik verdenk er perl ook 
van. Sorry voor het afdwalen... ik blijf lekker rustig ouderwets bij 
Potlatch. Doet al wat ik nodig heb en (hout vasthoudende) ik heb er nog 
nooit problemen mee gehad.


KA

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] JOSM memory eater


Het gaat over schijfruimte.
Die item imagery.wms-cache.path vind ik niet terug in advanced settings???
Voor tms staat er wel iets.
Als men 1 Terra geheugen heeft is dat geen probleem, maar als men een 
image maakt wel.

Maar het gaat vooral over beginnende mappers.

Sus


Le 22/10/14 19:57, Jo a écrit :
Klopt het dat je het niet echt over (intern) geheugen (RAM) hebt, maar 
wel over schijfruimte? Je mag al die folders met nummertjes in je JOSM 
folder regelmatig opruimen. Ik moet daar geregeld 50GB weghalen om 
weer verder te kunnen werken.


F12

vinkje bij Expert mode zetten
Advanced Settings

Imagery.wms-cache.path

zou de juiste instelling moeten zijn.

Polyglot

Op 22 oktober 2014 19:51 schreef Verhoeven Fr sus...@gmail.com 
mailto:sus...@gmail.com:


Men kan de cache folder wijzigen van TMS, voor WMS vind ik niets,
ook niet in de nieuwe JOSM versie van vandaag.
Na een remove en install van de nieuwe versie van JOSM in Ubuntu
is de cache inhoud niet veranderd.
Voor mij is dat geen echt probleem meer, maar dat is wel een
probleem als ik iemand aanzet om te mappen  met  JOSM  en dien
geen systeembeheerder of kenner is.

Groeten



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data

Sander, ( anderen)

ik heb je website daarstraks eens geprobeerd. Jammer genoeg kreeg ik niets
anders dan Loading. Niet lang genoeg gewacht ? Server overladen ?
Verkeerde browser ?

Ik vraag me nu af hoe ik een en ander in mijn workflow kan inpassen.

Het overzicht van wat er al in OSM zit is heel handig, maar dan zou het
resultaat onmiddellijk zichtbaar moeten zijn. Zou dit kunnen door het
script 's nachts te laten lopen en de resultaten te cachen in een DB ?
(sorry maar hier komt mijn achtergrond naar boven :-)  ).

De adrespunten in JOSM overnemen, is handig, maar gaat het mij tijdwinst
opleveren (gesteld dat ik nog steeds eerst een survey doe) ? Ik vrees
ervoor. Ik heb al eens gewerkt met de osmose site vorig jaar  en dat ging
niet sneller. Als we de adressen niet op de gebouwen zouden plaatsen zou er
wel een snelheidswinst inzitten. Dit is een beetje zoals ze het in
Nederland doen. Hoewel je dan in sommige gevallen toch nog het adres op het
gebouw moet plaatsen, bv. bij supermarkten waar de POI gegevens op het
gebouw gezet worden.

Ik had de indruk dat Sus ongeveer hetzelfde schreef. een huisnummer
toevoegen in JOSM is 2 kliks (HouseNumberTool plugin CMD-K/CTRL-K of
terracer-tool).

Hoe zien jullie dat ? Hoe kunnen we het harde werk van Sander het beste
gebruiken ?

met vriendelijke groeten

m

2014-10-22 17:58 GMT+02:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com:



 Op 22 oktober 2014 17:13 schreef Verhoeven Fr sus...@gmail.com:

  ...

 Dit alles om te zeggen dat ik weinig geloof in het via programmatie de
 CRAB gegevens over te brengen.


 Dat is wat we allemaal denken. Een automatische import zal nooit mogelijk
 zijn. We kunnen enkel wat tools ontwikkelen om het mappen van CRAB data
 eenvoudiger te maken, en om CRAB data met OSM data te vergelijken en zo
 fouten in de ene of andere database te vinden.

 Let ook op dat je de GRB kaart wel mag gebruiken om de huisnummers er uit
 te halen (aangezien dit toch CRAB data is), maar dat je het niet mag
 gebruiken om de gebouwen over te tekenen (die data is niet vrijgegeven).
 Aangezien dit een dunne lijn is, raden we meestal aan om de GRB kaart
 helemaal niet te gebruiken om te mappen.

 Dat gezegd, mijn eerste versie van de tools is nu ongeveer bruikbaar.

- Ga naar http://sanderd17.github.io/import.htm
http://sanderd17.github.io/import.html (Dit adres zal natuurlijk
veranderen in de toekomst)
- Geef je postcode in
- Als je de vergelijking met OSM data wil maken, vink dan ook Load
OSM data aan (zal wat langer duren om te laden, zeker in een stad)
- Klik op Update

 Dan zal je zien dat een stratenlijst geladen wordt met nummers. Indien er
 geen vergelijking met OSM wordt gemaakt, zal enkel de eerste kolom met
 nummers ingevuld worden.

 Deze pagina kan in de eerste plaats gebruikt worden om te controleren hoe
 volledig een gemeente (of deelgemeente) is, a.d.h.v. de nummers in de 2de
 tot 4de kolom. Die tonen resp.: het aantal adressen met een CRAB positie
 nog niet in OSM, het aantal adressen zonder CRAB positie nog niet in OSM en
 het aantal adressen in OSM, waarvoor er geen overeenkomstig CRAB adres
 gevonden is.

 Daarnaast is iedere straatnaam een link. Klik op de link met JOSM open, en
 de straat zal geladen worden in JOSM.

 Klik je op een nummer, dan zal die data ook geladen worden in JOSM, als
 een aparte layer (de layers kan je toch eenvoudig samenvoegen als je dat
 wil, splitsen is moeilijker). Let op dat dit enkel werkt met de laatste
 JOSM release (versie 7643).

 Zo kan je die CRAB data eenvoudig laden, in JOSM bekijken, en (volledig
 verwerkt) uploaden naar OSM. Je kan de geladen data ook nog eens
 vergelijken met de huisnummers in de GRB kaart.

 De scripts die gebruikt zijn, en de data kan je hier vinden:
 https://github.com/sanderd17/sanderd17.github.io

 Ik zou graag hebben dat er nu verschillende mappers het eens uitproberen,
 en verbeteringen voorstellen om de workflow te verbeteren. Let er ook op
 dat er geen straten tekort zijn, en geen encodeer problemen meer met
 speciale letters (é, è, ë, ...), of geen andere problemen.

 Één mogelijke verbetering is in ieder geval dat de adressen zonder CRAB
 positie niet over elkaar zouden moeten liggen in JOSM, zoals Thomas al zei.
 Verder wil ik ook wel kijken om er een optioneel kaartje aan toe te voegen.

 Als iemand enige design-kwaliteiten heeft, dan mag hij ook altijd een
 beter design maken. Mensen die willen mogen ook eens hun optimale workflow
 documenteren, zodat we met z'n allen de beste workflow kunnen zoeken, en
 die kunnen gebruiken.

 Als de tools op punt staan, dan kunnen ze gerust ergens anders gehosted
 worden.

 Ik nog wat verder doen met het schrijven van verbeteringen en documentatie.

 Tot later,
 Sander

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data

2014-10-22 Per discussione Sander Deryckere

Op 22 oktober 2014 20:57 schreef Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com:

 Sander, ( anderen)

 ik heb je website daarstraks eens geprobeerd. Jammer genoeg kreeg ik niets
 anders dan Loading. Niet lang genoeg gewacht ? Server overladen ?
 Verkeerde browser ?

 Welke browser? Welke postcode (misschien een grote stad waarbij het niet
werkt)? Heb je het net nog geprobeerd (mogelijks moet je de browser cache
legen om de verbeterde versie van het JS script opnieuw te downloaden)?


 Ik vraag me nu af hoe ik een en ander in mijn workflow kan inpassen.


Ik ook :D Dat vraagt natuurlijk wat onderzoek en wat denkwerk.


 Het overzicht van wat er al in OSM zit is heel handig, maar dan zou het
 resultaat onmiddellijk zichtbaar moeten zijn. Zou dit kunnen door het
 script 's nachts te laten lopen en de resultaten te cachen in een DB ?
 (sorry maar hier komt mijn achtergrond naar boven :-)  ).


Niet met de huidige code. Alles gebeurt client-side, wat maakt dat het
(eenmaal de kinderziekten verdwenen zijn) bijna geen onderhoud zal vragen.
Als je werkt met een DB, dan moet er altijd server infrastructuur
onderhouden worden, waardoor er kostbare mapping tijd verloren gaat.

Ik denk ook dat niet in elke gemeente elke dag gemapt zal worden. Dus is
het jammer om elke dag alle adressen te downloaden, wanneer er misschien
hoogstens in 20 gemeenten per dag a.d.h.v. CRAB data gemapt wordt.

Een ander voordeel van live-queries is dat binnen enkele minuten na het
uploaden naar OSM je al het resultaat zou moeten zien. Dus kan je eenvoudig
straat per straat mappen, zonder dat je er de volgende dag op moet terug
komen om te kijken als je geen fouten gemaakt hebt.

Normaal is het laden van de data snel genoeg, en ik kan de overpass query
nog wat verbeteren om het laden nog sneller te maken (en zal dat zeker
doen).


 De adrespunten in JOSM overnemen, is handig, maar gaat het mij tijdwinst
 opleveren (gesteld dat ik nog steeds eerst een survey doe) ? Ik vrees
 ervoor. Ik heb al eens gewerkt met de osmose site vorig jaar  en dat ging
 niet sneller. Als we de adressen niet op de gebouwen zouden plaatsen zou er
 wel een snelheidswinst inzitten. Dit is een beetje zoals ze het in
 Nederland doen. Hoewel je dan in sommige gevallen toch nog het adres op het
 gebouw moet plaatsen, bv. bij supermarkten waar de POI gegevens op het
 gebouw gezet worden.

 Ik kan niet meer data aanbieden dan we van AGIV krijgen ;)

Ik weet ook niet als het sneller zal gaan, maar ik denk dat met de CRAB
data slechts onvolledige surveys zouden nodig zijn.

Door een routine te creëren zal je zien waar er problemen kunnen zijn met
de CRAB data (zeker al met de punten die geen positie hebben), en specifiek
die probleemplaatsen gaan opzoeken. Ik denk, als je begint met een
volledige survey, zonder CRAB data, dan kom je thuis, zie je dat er op
sommige plaatsen nog onduidelijkheden zijn, en moet je nog eens terug. Deze
eerste survey zou kunnen vermeden worden door eerst de duidelijke CRAB data
te importeren.

Een andere tool die we kunnen gebruiken (weet niet als deze al bestaat), is
een tool om probleemplaatsen te markeren. Een soort geografische TODO
lijst. Ofwel gedeeld of persoonlijk. Zodat we aan de computer, tijdens de
initiële CRAB import, deze probleemplaatsen eenvoudig kunnen markeren en
vergeten, om dan later alle plaatsen te gaan bezoeken.

Deze tool is moeilijker te maken, omdat het afhangt van de mapping
voorkeuren (mappen op papier, met Android, met iPhone, ...). Dus hoop ik
dat er al ergens een bruikbaar systeem bestaat dat we gewoon kunnen
gebruiken.


 Ik had de indruk dat Sus ongeveer hetzelfde schreef. een huisnummer
 toevoegen in JOSM is 2 kliks (HouseNumberTool plugin CMD-K/CTRL-K of
 terracer-tool).

 Daarom laat ik het downloaden als extra layer. Dan kan je die (met een
aangepast stylesheet) ook als achtergrondlaag gebruiken, en zelf je eigen
gegevens ingeven. Na het mappen is de laag eenvoudig te verwijderen.
Daarnaast blijft mijn tool nuttig als controle na het mappen.



 Hoe zien jullie dat ? Hoe kunnen we het harde werk van Sander het beste
 gebruiken ?

 met vriendelijke groeten


Opmerkingen zijn altijd welkom.

Groeten,
Sander
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] JOSM memory eater

2014-10-22 Per discussione André Pirard

On 2014-10-22 17:58, Verhoeven Fr wrote :
 Dag allemaal,

 Wanneer ik bij iemand JOSM aanbeveel voel ik mij verplicht ze te
 melden dat er een een addertje onder het gras ligt.
 Het cachegeheugen van JOSM is hier op een PC al uitgelopen in een
 WinXP tot 20 GB, jaja giga. Wat de basis partitie volledig opgevuld
 had met gevolg dat Win XP vastliep. Het heeft wel wat geduurd om de
 schuldige op te sporen.
 Dat heeft ook nefaste gevolgen wanneer men een image maakt van de
 basis partitie dat altijd maar blijft aangroeien.
 Zijt ge van het probleem niet bewust, doe een search op mercator en
 de meesten zullen verschrikt staan, ook in Ubuntu of een andere
 Windows is dat zo.
 Men kan gerust alles wat onder de folder Cache staat verwijderen.
 JOSM maakt alles terug aan en men merkt er niets van.
 Ik doe het regelmatig met een batchfile wanneer JOSM uitgeschakeld is.

 In de berichten zie ik dat er leden zijn die JOSM kunnen patchen, die
 zouden best een oplossing vinden. ;-)



 Salut,
 Lorsque je conseille à quelqu'un d'utiliser JOSM je me sens obligé de
 l'avertir que le cache de JOSM ne cesse de grandir et va jusqu'à
 corrompre un système. Sous WinXP j'ai un jour retrouvé un cache gonflé
 à plus de 20 GB. C'est gênant car les images système ne cessent de
 grandir.
 Si vous ignorer le problème, faites une recherche sur mercator et
 vous m'en direz des nouvelles. Même problème sous Ubuntu ou les autres
 Windows.
 On peut sans problèmes mettre à la poubelle tout ce qui se trouve sous
 le répertoire cache de JOSM avec JOSM à l'arrêt, il refera les
 répertoires au prochain démarrage. Je le fais régulièrement avec un
 batchfile.

 Je vois que certains membres patchent JOSM, ils ont peut-être la
 solution. ;-)

 susvhv

There used to be these advanced settings when WMS was a plugin:

/cache.wmsplugin.expire -1 : this is a time in second until the tiles //are 
invalidated. -1 means never flush.
//cache.wmsplugin.maxsize 9 : maximal size of the cache //(probably in 
MB)/

But now that WMS is a core feature, they might have been renamed to some
imagery.wms.*
Try and search.
Setting the cache folder to /tmp/* is useless. 
/tmp is cleaned up when the system reboots and Ubuntu never reboots
(even after installs).
At least mine ;-)

André.






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Re: [OSM-talk-be] import AGIV CRAB-data

2014-10-22 Per discussione Thomas

Ik heb nu de laatste variant van de website van Sander even snel 
uitgeprobeerd; een dikke twee uur geleden werkte alles prima, maar het 
laatste uur krijg ik steeds een 400: bad-request van JOSM terug op het 
request vanaf het js-script, met daarbij “no command specified” 
(ongeacht welke van de 4 sets per straat ik gebruik). OSM-data inladen 
via de straatnaam werkt perfect. Het vergelijk met OSM werkt wel 
perfect, alleen het inladen in JOSM gaat dus fout. Wissen van de cache 
heeft geen effect (Firefox 33).


Uit een aantal snelle eerste vergelijkingen lijken in mijn regio 
(Oostende) vrijwel alle adresposities zéér mooi uit te lijnen op het 
midden van de gebouwen op de AGIV-luchtfoto. Alle reeds gemaakte 
opmerkingen over afwijkende positionering zal volgens mij vooral gelden 
voor de meer plattelandsgemeenten. Ik moet het nog even goed bekijken. 
In elk geval voor de woonwijken in Oostende zou ik de adrespunten zeer 
vlot kunnen verwerken en als punt importeren, als we het eens zouden 
zijn dat dat de nu de beste aanpak is.


Ik ben het zeker eens met het feit dat de gebouw-contouren hebben veel 
'rijker' is voor de kaart dan puur de adrespositie. Toch vind ik dat die 
adrespositie op zichzelf waarde heeft. Volgens alle richtlijnen van OSM 
zijn adrespunten, naar mijn idee, zeker de moeite waard, ook al zijn de 
bijbehorende gebouwen nog niet ingetekend. Dat die gebouwen eigenlijk 
belangrijker zijn dan de nummers vind ik een terechte opmerking, maar we 
hebben niet de beschikking over die gegevens. Daarnaast blijf ik bij 
mijn eerdere standpunt dat alle gebouwen intekenen zeer veel werk is, 
vrij onnauwkeurig door perspectiefvertekening en schaduwwerking en 
buitengewoon frustrerend als over een paar maand de GRB-data alsnog open 
zou worden. Ikzelf zie heel vaak af van het intekenen van gebouwen vanaf 
de luchtfoto omwille van bovenstaande redenen. In mijn werkomgeving ben 
ik ook vaak bezig met data-entry in GIS-systemen. Ik vind het zeer 
frustrerend om zo onnauwkeurig te werken als bij het intekenen van 
gebouwen vanaf een luchtfoto.


Daartegenover moet ik zeggen dat ik de GRB-data in mijn regio volgens 
mij extreem nauwkeurig is (los van tijdsdiscrepanties). Volgens mij is 
die data afkomstig van het kadaster. De moderne gegevens zijn met 
professionele GPS ingemeten, de oudste volgens mij zijn gedigitaliseerd 
van de analoge kaarten. Kadaster-gegevens hebben een bijzondere 
'rechtspositie'. Volgens mij hangen de licentie-problemen daar mee 
samen. De 'eigendom' van die gegevens is een zeer complexe zaak. De 
oorspronkelijke data stamt formeel uit het begin van de 19de eeuw en is 
daarmee auteursrechtenvrij. De oorspronkelijke kaarten (ondermeer 
uitgegeven door Popp en raadpleegbaar op geopunt.be) zijn op zich 
auteursrechtenvrij maar de scans zijn dat niet. De huidige kadastrale 
systemen zijn een directe voortzetting van dat historische systeem. Hoe 
en wat precies met rechten op de data is buitengewoon complex.


Over de workflow: ik vind dat de adrespunten op zichzelf geïmporteerd 
mogen worden; ook bij afwezigheid van het gebouw. Uiteraard moeten de 
punten wel handmatig 1 voor 1 gecontroleerd worden met de 
AGIV-luchtfoto. Een automatische datapomp is een echte no-go, maar daar 
lijken we het allemaal over eens te zijn. Wanneer de situatie niet 
duidelijk is, kan nog een beroep gedaan worden op de GRB-gegevens 
(zonder de contouren over te nemen!) of bij aanhoudende onduidelijkheid 
kan survey ter plaatse noodzakelijk zijn en/of moet van import van de 
specifieke punt uiteraard afgezien worden. Wanneer het gebouw aanwezig 
is (een relatieve zeldzaamheid, heb ik het idee) mogen wat mij betreft 
de adresgegevens op het gebouw getagd worden en mag het punt verwijderd 
worden. Dat er dan adressen op gebouwen staan en anderzijds adressen op 
punten lijkt mij geen probleem. Uit mijn eerste testen besluit ik dat ik 
met deze werkwijze zeer vlot een regio kan verwerken, zonder onzin-data 
te importeren. Het aantal “moeilijke gevallen” is in mijn regio zeer 
beperkt. Dat kan uiteraard per regio verschillen.


Over Bing versus AGIV: Bing zal altijd bekender zijn dan AGIV. Hoe 
eenvoudig het ook wordt om de AGIV-luchtfoto te gebruiken: als 
'startende OSM-editende leden' ook voor Bing kunnen kiezen zullen ze dat 
heel snel doen. Dit als belangrijk punt naar voor schuiven in de 
'how-to-get-started'-lijstjes lijkt mij enkel de drempel te verhogen. 
Het is volgens mij belangrijker om de aandacht te vestigen op de 
onnauwkeurigheid van luchtofotografie in het algemeen. De misvattingen 
over schaduwen, perspectief etc. zorgen voor een verkeerde interpretatie 
van de luchtfoto en bijgevolg het verkeerd aanpassen / corrigeren van 
wél correct ingevoerde gegevens. Het klopt dat de voetafdruk van een 
gebouw haast nooit netjes uitlijnt met de dakgoot-contour. Die contour 
is echter wél heel duidelijk zichtbaar op de luchtfoto. Het is een 
natuurlijke reflex om een gebouw-contour te tekenen rond die

[OSM-legal-talk] Access Address Register licence mini-revision

2014-10-22 Per discussione Svavar Kjarrval

CC: talk-is  Tryggvi Björgvinsson

Greetings legal-talk list.

There is an upcoming mini-revision of a user licence for the database
called Access Address Register (Icelandic: staðfangaskrá) which is
maintained by Registers Iceland. The plan in the long run is to
implement a more open government licence which has yet to be finished.
In the meantime, there might be cause to patch the current licence.

For this process, I would like to gather any comments regarding which
parts of the licence could be improved in order for it to conform with
OSM's Contributor Terms and/or any ambiguityin that regard. The current
licence is located at
http://www.skra.is/fasteignaskra/stadfangaskra/user-licence/

Do you have any comments you would like for me to convey?

With regards,
Svavar Kjarrval



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board

2014-10-22 8:53 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch:

 What if we introduce a rule that one can write a message in English and
 then, for clarity, the version of the same message in another human
 language? If there is an original idea, it does not matter much in what
 language it was formulated.



I somehow like this idea, but the written language always has some problems
compared to spoken language, as the latter allows for variations to
transport additional meaning, relativize or even invert what the literal
meaning of the said words is. Also some languages cannot be written. If we
were to introduce this rule, I'd suggest to allow audio and video
recordings as well. Obviously requiring an English version will still
prevent a lot of people from contributing to the process so maybe this
should be optional.


Im Prinzip eine gute Idee, allerdings ergeben sich aus der Niederschrift
von Sprache grundsätzliche Probleme, da die gesprochene Sprache
Variationsmöglichkeiten (Intonation, Prosodie, Akzent) bietet, um
zusätzliche Bedeutungsebenen zu transportieren, die das wörtlich Gesagte
relativieren, in ein anderes Licht setzen und im Extremfall sogar umkehren
können. Auch können manche Sprachen gar nicht schriftlich wiedergegeben
werden. Sollten wir diese Regelung einführen, so würde ich dafür plädieren,
zusätzlich auch Ton und Bildaufnahmen zuzulassen. Allerdings ist
prinzipiell die Erfordernis einer englischen Version bereits ein Hindernis,
welches viele Menschen von der Teilnahme am Prozess ausschließt, daher
könnte das ggf. optional werden.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board

On the Wikimedia Foundation web site there is a page with all financial
reports:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Financial_reports

Where can I find the financial reports of the OpenStreetMap Foundation?

Thanks,
Micru

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:


 2014-10-22 8:53 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch:

 What if we introduce a rule that one can write a message in English and
 then, for clarity, the version of the same message in another human
 language? If there is an original idea, it does not matter much in what
 language it was formulated.



 I somehow like this idea, but the written language always has some
 problems compared to spoken language, as the latter allows for variations
 to transport additional meaning, relativize or even invert what the literal
 meaning of the said words is. Also some languages cannot be written. If we
 were to introduce this rule, I'd suggest to allow audio and video
 recordings as well. Obviously requiring an English version will still
 prevent a lot of people from contributing to the process so maybe this
 should be optional.


 Im Prinzip eine gute Idee, allerdings ergeben sich aus der Niederschrift
 von Sprache grundsätzliche Probleme, da die gesprochene Sprache
 Variationsmöglichkeiten (Intonation, Prosodie, Akzent) bietet, um
 zusätzliche Bedeutungsebenen zu transportieren, die das wörtlich Gesagte
 relativieren, in ein anderes Licht setzen und im Extremfall sogar umkehren
 können. Auch können manche Sprachen gar nicht schriftlich wiedergegeben
 werden. Sollten wir diese Regelung einführen, so würde ich dafür plädieren,
 zusätzlich auch Ton und Bildaufnahmen zuzulassen. Allerdings ist
 prinzipiell die Erfordernis einer englischen Version bereits ein Hindernis,
 welches viele Menschen von der Teilnahme am Prozess ausschließt, daher
 könnte das ggf. optional werden.


 cheers,
 Martin


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board

2014-10-22 11:40 GMT+02:00 David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com:

 Where can I find the financial reports of the OpenStreetMap Foundation?




you can go to the homepage, click on main page:
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page
then on Finances and you will get some information:
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Finances

cheers,
Martin
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[OSM-talk] International Map Year

2014-10-22 Per discussione Jochen Topf

Just stumbled over this:
http://internationalmapyear.org

Seems to be some UN thing: The International Map Year 2015/16. Maybe some OSM
groups want to get involved in some way.

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-721-388298

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board

Hi Martin,

thanks for the link. What about annual plans and community reviews? Where
can I see them?

Sorry for my ignorance about how to find this information...

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:


 2014-10-22 11:40 GMT+02:00 David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com:

 Where can I find the financial reports of the OpenStreetMap Foundation?




 you can go to the homepage, click on main page:
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page
 then on Finances and you will get some information:
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Finances

 cheers,
 Martin




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Re: [OSM-talk] Howto tag a prominent dead tree?

2014-10-22 Per discussione Richard Z.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:26:40AM +, Nicholas G Lawrence wrote:
 Subject: [OSM-talk] Howto tag a prominent dead tree?
 
 Hi,
 
 this must have come up before... any ideas?
 
 What does prominent mean?

in this case local landmark visible on google sat (Bing is clouded in that 
place)
and useful for navigation. Cultural or historical siginficance unknown although
it is close to a house ruin of some significance.

Richard

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[OSM-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Steve Coast

Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time making 
maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun. It’s a neat hobby and we’re making 
the world a slightly better place.

You need the right environment for things to be fun. Someone has to install the 
toys in the playground. Someone needs to pay for the slides and install the 
swings so that the kids can run around. Then someone else needs to fix them 
when they fail and make sure you don’t break your neck unexpectedly.

In the past I’ve tried hard to make OSM a fun playground, by doing things like 
taking all the warning labels off and letting people do whatever they like. 
Things like open tagging or letting anyone edit, which were crazy ideas in 
2004. I’ve also at times been responsible for it not being fun. Partly because 
I was a kid learning the hard way and partly because sometimes you need to make 
decisions.

I agree that in some ways OSM isn’t a fun playground right now. But that 
doesn’t mean it can’t be again.

We had a lot of fun with our swings and our slides. But now there are a lot 
more people to join the fun from far away places and we’re older. Maybe we now 
prefer bumper cars and video games to the old swings and slides.

We should keep the swings and the slides. People new to the playground will 
still enjoy them. But we should also build a bumper car arena and maybe a video 
game arcade. Sometimes we might go back and play on the slide too. We need some 
new skills to build these new toys.

Together, we need a mission and then a couple of course corrections to make it 
happen.

I think addressing should be our mission. We built the worlds best display map 
already. We won. If you print out any OSM map of practically anywhere, it’s the 
best. But we can’t find anything on it without comprehensive and global 
addressing information. It’s the hidden data behind the map we now need to go 
after. All the other things we need to do are also good things. Diversity in 
all it’s forms, faster servers, better tools, easier documentation and more.

A clear mission provides a framework and guidance for achieving those things. 
“Map more stuff” got us very, very far. But now, we should focus on what’s 
stopping us replacing proprietary maps. And that is addressing.

How would we go achieve that?

There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the board 
bandwidth.

The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard to 
achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for five minutes in 
a conversation on some issue, you use over half an hour. In an hour-long 
meeting that means you can barely discuss two things. Ignoring all the other 
issues, just the pure mechanics shows you how hard it is to talk through 
something let alone achieve a consensus. The board needs to be 3 people. 5 at 
maximum.

Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most people 
aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they need to please 
everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend meetings because they have a 
day job and other life commitments. The board needs to meet in person regularly 
with a facilitator and also have guidance about what it means to be on a board. 
We can’t expect volunteers to naturally figure all this stuff out by themselves 
and then also devote the time to also achieve goals.

The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid staff can 
do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are things that volunteers 
don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t happen at all, but are still very 
important for a functioning organization. Having paid staff isn’t about 
deprecating volunteer involvement, it’s about plugging the gaps. It’s not a 
perfect solution but the alternative is to rely on companies to do many of 
these things, and that really isn’t perfect either.

In terms of the mechanics,

1. Change the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s best 
addressable map”
2. The board figures out how to voluntarily shrink to 3-5 people, and, meets in 
person 2-4 times a year
3. Consulting with the community on exact roles and remit, hire 1-3 people [*]

Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3 years. 
At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better, we would 
have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map ever again, 
and it would be people like you that made it happen.

So why don’t we go do that?

—

A digression.

In Peter Thiel’s book “Zero-to-One” he catalogs the fate of HP’s board. HP used 
to be a very innovative place and then it wasn’t any more. Thiel posits that 
there were two board factions at a critical time. On the one hand there were 
people who wanted to chart out things to build and then go build them. On the 
other hand there was a group who felt the board wasn’t competent to do that, 
and they should focus on

Re: [OSM-talk] Howto tag a prominent dead tree?

2014-10-22 11:49 GMT+02:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com:

  What does prominent mean?

 in this case local landmark visible on google sat (Bing is clouded in that
 place)
 and useful for navigation. Cultural or historical siginficance unknown
 although
 it is close to a house ruin of some significance.



I wouldn't focus on the significant aspect (i.e. the tag for a dead tree
shouldn't (IMHO) depent on the significance of the tree). You could add a
subtag like landmark=yes to denote some significance (this is context
dependent, to be a landmark there would either be nothing else in the area,
or it should be somehow outstanding).

cheers,
Martin

btw.: this whole discussion should take place in tagging not in talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] International Map Year

2014-10-22 Per discussione Christoph Hormann

On Wednesday 22 October 2014, Jochen Topf wrote:
 Just stumbled over this:
 http://internationalmapyear.org

 Seems to be some UN thing: The International Map Year 2015/16. Maybe
 some OSM groups want to get involved in some way.

This is an ICA (International Cartographic Association) initiative 
apparently endorsed by the UN.  The ICA is an international association 
of national cartographic societies (in Germany the DGfK) which is 
mostly focussed on traditional cartography and generally fairly 
reserved towards crowd sourced geodata and community projects.  The  
book The World of Maps they are promoting on that site contains a 
chapter on Volunteered Geographic Information:

http://internationalmapyear.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/19_Volunteered_Geographic_Information.pdf

which is fairly superficial but includes a quite detailed and well 
illustrated tutorial on contributing to OSM.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board



Am 22.10.2014 11:48, schrieb David Cuenca:
 Hi Martin,
 
 thanks for the link. What about annual plans and community reviews?
 Where can I see them?


David,

The WMF has a considerable amount of resources available both in funds
and in people. It is a very Apples and Oranges comparison, which extends
beyond just the relative size or the organisation. You will find
essentially none of the WMFs sugar coating in the OSMF.

In some of these discussions there seems to be an assumption that we
could simply just emulate the WMF and everything would be fine and
dandy, however the basic business model and competitive environment is
very different and we have some very different trade off's to make.

Simon



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Re: [OSM-talk] Howto tag a prominent dead tree?

2014-10-22 Per discussione Glenn Plas

Why is landmark redirected to man_made ?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:landmark

I would support the landmark suggestion 100% but since a tree isn't
man_made

Glenn

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Re: [OSM-talk] Howto tag a prominent dead tree?

2014-10-22 Per discussione Andy Mabbett

On 22 October 2014 10:49, Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:26:40AM +, Nicholas G Lawrence wrote:

 Subject: [OSM-talk] Howto tag a prominent dead tree?

 What does prominent mean?

 in this case local landmark

Perhaps:

   natural=tree
   tree_status=dead

OTOH, see:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1436388260

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfin_Oak

for an extreme example ;-)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board

2014-10-22 Per discussione Harry Wood



 btw, there should be a all values in GBP or similar on this page: 
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Finances/Balance_Sheet_2012


Well I can fix that at least (done)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Howto tag a prominent dead tree?

2014-10-22 12:41 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

   natural=tree
   tree_status=dead


if a dead tree is still a tree, then yes. Otherwise I wouldn't use this
approach, it is similar to disused, proposed, ruins etc., i.e. the tagging
scheme should try to avoid misinterpretations from not checking for
modifier keys (generally the idea of modifier keys has been deprecated and
alternatives like prefixing disused: instead of using disused=yes are
encouraged). tree_status also seems too specific, a more generic tag like
status would be better IMHO.


OTOH, see:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1436388260

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfin_Oak

 for an extreme example ;-)



I'd tag this as artwork.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00 Steve Coast st...@asklater.com:

 Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3
 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better,
 we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map
 ever again, and it would be people like you that made it happen.




I agree with you that addressing is very important for a lot of commercial
(and non-commercial) map users. What I don't understand is how a paid board
would help us map more addresses. Unfortunately mapping addresses is
typically less fun than going to the video arcade. Looking at the current
figures we are not doing too bad. Currently there are 130 Million buildings
in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers. I don't know exactly how many buildings
there are in the world, and how many of them don't have addresses, but I
guess it will be at least 1 Billion addresses in the world, probably more.
According to the stats page we have roughly 25.000 active contributors a
month ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contributor_Stats ). To
get an address on all currently mapped buildings in three years time, (84M
to go), every active contributor would have to add 93 addresses a month -
constantly. To get 1 Billion addresses mapped by 25.000 contributors in 3
yrs, it would be  housenumbers a month per active contributor. Are we
planning to pay the mappers as well? The only solution seems to get more
contributors mapping, and have them insert addresses.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

It would be nice to know how many of the buildings and house numbers in OSM
were imported versus surveyed / drawn by hand. I have a bad feeling about
how feasible it is to crowd surf house numbers.

regards

m

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00 Steve Coast st...@asklater.com:

 Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3
 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better,
 we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map
 ever again, and it would be people like you that made it happen.




 I agree with you that addressing is very important for a lot of commercial
 (and non-commercial) map users. What I don't understand is how a paid board
 would help us map more addresses. Unfortunately mapping addresses is
 typically less fun than going to the video arcade. Looking at the current
 figures we are not doing too bad. Currently there are 130 Million buildings
 in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers. I don't know exactly how many buildings
 there are in the world, and how many of them don't have addresses, but I
 guess it will be at least 1 Billion addresses in the world, probably more.
 According to the stats page we have roughly 25.000 active contributors a
 month ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contributor_Stats ). To
 get an address on all currently mapped buildings in three years time, (84M
 to go), every active contributor would have to add 93 addresses a month -
 constantly. To get 1 Billion addresses mapped by 25.000 contributors in 3
 yrs, it would be  housenumbers a month per active contributor. Are we
 planning to pay the mappers as well? The only solution seems to get more
 contributors mapping, and have them insert addresses.

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Matthijs Melissen

On 22 October 2014 12:37, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 Currently there are 130 Million buildings
 in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers.

Do we know how many of these addresses come from imports? I wouldn't
be surprised if over 90% of the housenumbers in OSM come from imports.

The Dutch BAG import accounts for 8 million adresses, and the Czech
RUIAN import accounts for 3 million addresses. Then there have also
been large imports at least in Germany, Poland, and France, but for
these countries I can't find exact numbers.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Cristian Consonni

2014-10-22 13:37 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 I agree with you that addressing is very important for a lot of commercial
 (and non-commercial) map users. What I don't understand is how a paid board
 would help us map more addresses.

Martin, Steve said paid staff for a board of volunteers not paid
board. To me, this is a very significant difference.
This is not to say that I have any magic recipe to solve this problem,
I just want to avoid the spread of innacurate citations. :-)

I would say that having a common, agreed upon and shared goal is step
zero for success and a bright future, though.

Cristian
p.s.: at the moment my feeling is that we are GNU/Linux more than HP or Apple.
The GNU is important, because we are very often talking about licenses.
 (I am just kidding, in case you are wondering)

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Clifford Snow

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 It would be nice to know how many of the buildings and house numbers in
 OSM were imported versus surveyed / drawn by hand. I have a bad feeling
 about how feasible it is to crowd surf house numbers.


I think Steve is asking to focus on building a better playground, not
inventorying the toys. He is giving a suggestion of reducing the board size
and restating the mission.

I love to working on addressing, but why not take that to a new thread.

Clifford


-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Alex Barth

Steve - would love to work on fixing the license with you so addresses in
OSM make sense in the first place. Right now you practically can't use OSM
for permanent geocoding. See also:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-July/007900.html

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

 Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time
 making maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun. It’s a neat hobby and
 we’re making the world a slightly better place.

 You need the right environment for things to be fun. Someone has to
 install the toys in the playground. Someone needs to pay for the slides and
 install the swings so that the kids can run around. Then someone else needs
 to fix them when they fail and make sure you don’t break your neck
 unexpectedly.

 In the past I’ve tried hard to make OSM a fun playground, by doing things
 like taking all the warning labels off and letting people do whatever they
 like. Things like open tagging or letting anyone edit, which were crazy
 ideas in 2004. I’ve also at times been responsible for it not being fun.
 Partly because I was a kid learning the hard way and partly because
 sometimes you need to make decisions.

 I agree that in some ways OSM isn’t a fun playground right now. But that
 doesn’t mean it can’t be again.

 We had a lot of fun with our swings and our slides. But now there are a
 lot more people to join the fun from far away places and we’re older. Maybe
 we now prefer bumper cars and video games to the old swings and slides.

 We should keep the swings and the slides. People new to the playground
 will still enjoy them. But we should also build a bumper car arena and
 maybe a video game arcade. Sometimes we might go back and play on the slide
 too. We need some new skills to build these new toys.

 Together, we need a mission and then a couple of course corrections to
 make it happen.

 I think addressing should be our mission. We built the worlds best display
 map already. We won. If you print out any OSM map of practically anywhere,
 it’s the best. But we can’t find anything on it without comprehensive and
 global addressing information. It’s the hidden data behind the map we now
 need to go after. All the other things we need to do are also good things.
 Diversity in all it’s forms, faster servers, better tools, easier
 documentation and more.

 A clear mission provides a framework and guidance for achieving those
 things. “Map more stuff” got us very, very far. But now, we should focus on
 what’s stopping us replacing proprietary maps. And that is addressing.

 How would we go achieve that?

 There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the board
 bandwidth.

 The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard to
 achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for five
 minutes in a conversation on some issue, you use over half an hour. In an
 hour-long meeting that means you can barely discuss two things. Ignoring
 all the other issues, just the pure mechanics shows you how hard it is to
 talk through something let alone achieve a consensus. The board needs to be
 3 people. 5 at maximum.

 Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most
 people aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they need
 to please everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend meetings
 because they have a day job and other life commitments. The board needs to
 meet in person regularly with a facilitator and also have guidance about
 what it means to be on a board. We can’t expect volunteers to naturally
 figure all this stuff out by themselves and then also devote the time to
 also achieve goals.

 The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid staff
 can do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are things that
 volunteers don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t happen at all, but
 are still very important for a functioning organization. Having paid staff
 isn’t about deprecating volunteer involvement, it’s about plugging the
 gaps. It’s not a perfect solution but the alternative is to rely on
 companies to do many of these things, and that really isn’t perfect either.

 In terms of the mechanics,

 1. Change the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s
 best addressable map”
 2. The board figures out how to voluntarily shrink to 3-5 people, and,
 meets in person 2-4 times a year
 3. Consulting with the community on exact roles and remit, hire 1-3 people
 [*]

 Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3
 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better,
 we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map
 ever again, and it would be people like you that made it happen.

 So why don’t we go do that?

 —

 A digression.

 In Peter Thiel’s book “Zero-to-One” he catalogs the fate of

Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board

Simon,

I was not asking to emulate the WMF, I was asking because I am not familiar
with the internal procedures of the OSMF.
But yes, after checking the numbers both organizations are not comparable,
at all.

From this thread it seemed that there were serious issues, but seeing all
what has been accomplished with such a tight budget, it is quite a feat.

Thanks,

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:



 Am 22.10.2014 11:48, schrieb David Cuenca:
  Hi Martin,
 
  thanks for the link. What about annual plans and community reviews?
  Where can I see them?


 David,

 The WMF has a considerable amount of resources available both in funds
 and in people. It is a very Apples and Oranges comparison, which extends
 beyond just the relative size or the organisation. You will find
 essentially none of the WMFs sugar coating in the OSMF.

 In some of these discussions there seems to be an assumption that we
 could simply just emulate the WMF and everything would be fine and
 dandy, however the basic business model and competitive environment is
 very different and we have some very different trade off's to make.

 Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Modus operandi of the board

2014-10-22 Per discussione Christoph Hormann

On Wednesday 22 October 2014, Kate Chapman wrote:

 One issue is we really have no idea what the OSMF membership wants.
 We know what some vocal people who write English well want. [...]

This is certainly something that would be much easier if there was more 
transparency on the work of the OSMF bodies.

As already widely mentioned the minutes are the only public 
documentation and as such extrememely sparse but beyond that they are 
published without the possibility to comment and ask questions.  IMO 
the only way the OSM community can interpret that is that input on the 
topics mentioned there by ordinary community members is not wanted.

I cannot really form a qualified opinion from the outside of course but 
to me the whole subject of transparency supports the impression Richard 
communicated that the OSMF board is inherently broken.  At least three 
current members of the board have expressed the opinion here that 
transparency is a major issue but yet improvements during the past year 
on this matter are marginal at best, at least from what is publicly 
visible.

To give a specific example how the current scarcity of public 
documentation of the work looks like:

At the beginning of the year the lack of attribution in uses of OSM data 
was subject in the board minutes and various decisions were made:

http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Board_Meeting_Minutes_2014-01-14

There is no follow-up on this subject in any of the later meetings this 
year according to the minutes.

There is mentioning in the LWG minutes from 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uemhXWKwbu3RNjAWcG0R-nEFaN1FHjZl1McFwjXkNSc/pub

 The board has asked the LWG to follow up on the issue of insufficient
 attribution by larger OSM based service providers.

And then in the most recent minutes from the mangement team 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IiWYD3uwt8HJH-J6DKDRQfLtWa-P5-2OSXXyRCLvD-Y/pub

there is:

 No substantive action on being more aggressive on making sure that
 folks attribute us, (board request).

This is just an example - there are a lot of other similar case - but 
this seems particularly useful since it is an issue of potential 
interest to all OSM mappers and not just OSMF members.

Apart from the ambiguities and contradictions in what is written the 
impression you get here from the outside without having been in any of 
the meeting is that a topic has been discussed in at least three bodies 
of the OSMF (board, MT and LWG) with essentially no results beyond the 
initial statement.  Now i don't want to say everybody has been lazy or 
unproductive, esp. not the LWG who have done some great work on the 
community guidelines recently but the minutes certainly fail to meet 
their purpose as comprehensive documentation of the work of the OSMF 
bodies.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Pierre Béland

Our community has been succesful in developping quite a fantastic project. Not 
only an online map like Google, but also on paper, GPS, smartphones. For the 
various Navigation tools and Search facilities to be efficient, we need 
adresses surely.
But the first informations we need to structure the map are street names and 
administrative limits to have the capacity to find a street within a city / 
region.

That is surely one of our missions to progress with this. And I would like that 
we discuss on how we can better progress with this. Could this be a mission of 
some of the Working groups to assure that this will be done with a 
collaborative approach?
 Pierre 

  De : Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com
 À : Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
Cc : osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org; 
talk@openstreetmap.org Talk talk@openstreetmap.org 
 Envoyé le : Mercredi 22 octobre 2014 8h31
 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] A Better Map
   
Steve - would love to work on fixing the license with you so addresses in OSM 
make sense in the first place. Right now you practically can't use OSM for 
permanent geocoding. See also:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-July/007900.html



On Wednesday, October 22, 2014, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time making 
maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun. It’s a neat hobby and we’re making 
the world a slightly better place.

You need the right environment for things to be fun. Someone has to install the 
toys in the playground. Someone needs to pay for the slides and install the 
swings so that the kids can run around. Then someone else needs to fix them 
when they fail and make sure you don’t break your neck unexpectedly.

In the past I’ve tried hard to make OSM a fun playground, by doing things like 
taking all the warning labels off and letting people do whatever they like. 
Things like open tagging or letting anyone edit, which were crazy ideas in 
2004. I’ve also at times been responsible for it not being fun. Partly because 
I was a kid learning the hard way and partly because sometimes you need to make 
decisions.

I agree that in some ways OSM isn’t a fun playground right now. But that 
doesn’t mean it can’t be again.

We had a lot of fun with our swings and our slides. But now there are a lot 
more people to join the fun from far away places and we’re older. Maybe we now 
prefer bumper cars and video games to the old swings and slides.

We should keep the swings and the slides. People new to the playground will 
still enjoy them. But we should also build a bumper car arena and maybe a video 
game arcade. Sometimes we might go back and play on the slide too. We need some 
new skills to build these new toys.

Together, we need a mission and then a couple of course corrections to make it 
happen.

I think addressing should be our mission. We built the worlds best display map 
already. We won. If you print out any OSM map of practically anywhere, it’s the 
best. But we can’t find anything on it without comprehensive and global 
addressing information. It’s the hidden data behind the map we now need to go 
after. All the other things we need to do are also good things. Diversity in 
all it’s forms, faster servers, better tools, easier documentation and more.

A clear mission provides a framework and guidance for achieving those things. 
“Map more stuff” got us very, very far. But now, we should focus on what’s 
stopping us replacing proprietary maps. And that is addressing.

How would we go achieve that?

There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the board 
bandwidth.

The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard to 
achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for five minutes in 
a conversation on some issue, you use over half an hour. In an hour-long 
meeting that means you can barely discuss two things. Ignoring all the other 
issues, just the pure mechanics shows you how hard it is to talk through 
something let alone achieve a consensus. The board needs to be 3 people. 5 at 
maximum.

Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most people 
aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they need to please 
everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend meetings because they have a 
day job and other life commitments. The board needs to meet in person regularly 
with a facilitator and also have guidance about what it means to be on a board. 
We can’t expect volunteers to naturally figure all this stuff out by themselves 
and then also devote the time to also achieve goals.

The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid staff can 
do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are things that volunteers 
don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t happen at all, but are still very 
important for a functioning organization. Having paid staff

Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Paul Norman


Alex, the LWG would love to work with you on fixing any confusing if you're 
interested in resuming work on the guideline - currently it lies abandoned with 
the feedback needing to be integrated.

On Oct 22, 2014, at 05:33 AM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote:

Steve - would love to work on fixing the license with you so addresses in OSM 
make sense in the first place. Right now you practically can't use OSM for 
permanent geocoding. See also:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-July/007900.html 


On Wednesday, October 22, 2014, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time making 
maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun. It’s a neat hobby and we’re making 
the world a slightly better place.

You need the right environment for things to be fun. Someone has to install the 
toys in the playground. Someone needs to pay for the slides and install the 
swings so that the kids can run around. Then someone else needs to fix them 
when they fail and make sure you don’t break your neck unexpectedly.

In the past I’ve tried hard to make OSM a fun playground, by doing things like 
taking all the warning labels off and letting people do whatever they like. 
Things like open tagging or letting anyone edit, which were crazy ideas in 
2004. I’ve also at times been responsible for it not being fun. Partly because 
I was a kid learning the hard way and partly because sometimes you need to make 
decisions.

I agree that in some ways OSM isn’t a fun playground right now. But that 
doesn’t mean it can’t be again.

We had a lot of fun with our swings and our slides. But now there are a lot 
more people to join the fun from far away places and we’re older. Maybe we now 
prefer bumper cars and video games to the old swings and slides.

We should keep the swings and the slides. People new to the playground will 
still enjoy them. But we should also build a bumper car arena and maybe a video 
game arcade. Sometimes we might go back and play on the slide too. We need some 
new skills to build these new toys.

Together, we need a mission and then a couple of course corrections to make it 
happen.

I think addressing should be our mission. We built the worlds best display map 
already. We won. If you print out any OSM map of practically anywhere, it’s the 
best. But we can’t find anything on it without comprehensive and global 
addressing information. It’s the hidden data behind the map we now need to go 
after. All the other things we need to do are also good things. Diversity in 
all it’s forms, faster servers, better tools, easier documentation and more.

A clear mission provides a framework and guidance for achieving those things. 
“Map more stuff” got us very, very far. But now, we should focus on what’s 
stopping us replacing proprietary maps. And that is addressing.

How would we go achieve that?

There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the board 
bandwidth.

The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard to 
achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for five minutes in 
a conversation on some issue, you use over half an hour. In an hour-long 
meeting that means you can barely discuss two things. Ignoring all the other 
issues, just the pure mechanics shows you how hard it is to talk through 
something let alone achieve a consensus. The board needs to be 3 people. 5 at 
maximum.

Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most people 
aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they need to please 
everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend meetings because they have a 
day job and other life commitments. The board needs to meet in person regularly 
with a facilitator and also have guidance about what it means to be on a board. 
We can’t expect volunteers to naturally figure all this stuff out by themselves 
and then also devote the time to also achieve goals.

The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid staff can 
do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are things that volunteers 
don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t happen at all, but are still very 
important for a functioning organization. Having paid staff isn’t about 
deprecating volunteer involvement, it’s about plugging the gaps. It’s not a 
perfect solution but the alternative is to rely on companies to do many of 
these things, and that really isn’t perfect either.

In terms of the mechanics,

1. Change the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s best 
addressable map”
2. The board figures out how to voluntarily shrink to 3-5 people, and, meets in 
person 2-4 times a year
3. Consulting with the community on exact roles and remit, hire 1-3 people [*]

Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3 years. 
At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better, we would

Re: [OSM-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Ineiev

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 02:00:34PM +, Paul Norman wrote:
 
 On Wednesday, October 22, 2014, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
 Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time
 making maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun.

Just a data point: _I_'m here because I need a free map. of course,
I'm not going to deny that it's fun or that many people are here
because it's fun or that having fun is great.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A Better Map

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote:

 But the first informations we need to structure the map are street names
 and administrative limits to have the capacity to find a street within a
 city / region.


It would be amazing to have structured information entities, however I am
not sure if this idea is wished by OSM'ers as the benefits are not clear to
many yet.

Cheers,
Micru
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[OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Clifford Snow

Steve Coast suggested changing the mission statement of OSM to be something
like “The world’s best addressable map” I thought I'd separate out this
into a new thread. As some backup, I attended my first SOTM-US in 2012
where Steve proposed we build an addressable map. A group of us from
Seattle decided that we'd take that challenge and import addresses for
Seattle. That import was completed.

Here are the address related comments:

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00 Steve Coast st...@asklater.com:

 Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3
 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better,
 we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map
 ever again, and it would be people like you that made it happen.




 I agree with you that addressing is very important for a lot of commercial
 (and non-commercial) map users. What I don't understand is how a paid board
 would help us map more addresses. Unfortunately mapping addresses is
 typically less fun than going to the video arcade. Looking at the current
 figures we are not doing too bad. Currently there are 130 Million buildings
 in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers. I don't know exactly how many buildings
 there are in the world, and how many of them don't have addresses, but I
 guess it will be at least 1 Billion addresses in the world, probably more.
 According to the stats page we have roughly 25.000 active contributors a
 month ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contributor_Stats ). To
 get an address on all currently mapped buildings in three years time, (84M
 to go), every active contributor would have to add 93 addresses a month -
 constantly. To get 1 Billion addresses mapped by 25.000 contributors in 3
 yrs, it would be  housenumbers a month per active contributor. Are we
 planning to pay the mappers as well? The only solution seems to get more
 contributors mapping, and have them insert addresses.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 It would be nice to know how many of the buildings and house numbers in
 OSM were imported versus surveyed / drawn by hand. I have a bad feeling
 about how feasible it is to crowd surf house numbers.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev 
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote:

 It is not necessary to put down a number on each building. It is possible
 to use *addr:interpolation* (*odd, even*, or *all*).

 We put down a number on the first building, then on the last, connect them
 in JOSM, and add *addr:interpolation: all *. For example here:
 http://osm.org/go/0CFn0AZ_d--?m= . It is also very useful on a street
 with many small houses. And it is searchable. For example if there is
 number 15 and number 27 on the map for a street, and they are connected
 with *addr:interpolation: odd, *and if one searches number 21, the map
 will show the number 21 all right.

 Then, there is another approach. We first map addressable large building,
 where a lot of people live or work. Kind of of going after the low-hanging
 fruit.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl
 wrote:

 On 22 October 2014 12:37, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Currently there are 130 Million buildings
  in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers.

 Do we know how many of these addresses come from imports? I wouldn't
 be surprised if over 90% of the housenumbers in OSM come from imports.

 The Dutch BAG import accounts for 8 million adresses, and the Czech
 RUIAN import accounts for 3 million addresses. Then there have also
 been large imports at least in Germany, Poland, and France, but for
 these countries I can't find exact numbers.






-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Kate Chapman

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your thoughts, I have a few questions/comments inline.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:15 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:



 There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the board
 bandwidth.

 The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard to
 achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for five
 minutes in a conversation on some issue, you use over half an hour. In an
 hour-long meeting that means you can barely discuss two things. Ignoring
 all the other issues, just the pure mechanics shows you how hard it is to
 talk through something let alone achieve a consensus. The board needs to be
 3 people. 5 at maximum.


I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do
think however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF
membership isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I
frequently have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board
elections) are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow
the flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For
example most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or
legal matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not
a bad thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.


 Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most
 people aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they need
 to please everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend meetings
 because they have a day job and other life commitments. The board needs to
 meet in person regularly with a facilitator and also have guidance about
 what it means to be on a board. We can’t expect volunteers to naturally
 figure all this stuff out by themselves and then also devote the time to
 also achieve goals.


I completely agree regarding meeting in person and having a facilitator.
Would help lead to a more productive board. It is certainly impossible to
please everybody all the time, facilitators I've worked with in other
groups at least give the opportunity for more voices to be heard.



 The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid staff
 can do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are things that
 volunteers don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t happen at all, but
 are still very important for a functioning organization. Having paid staff
 isn’t about deprecating volunteer involvement, it’s about plugging the
 gaps. It’s not a perfect solution but the alternative is to rely on
 companies to do many of these things, and that really isn’t perfect either.


Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff
on an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers
while attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January
it was the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the
manure. Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours,
grooming horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously
look at what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is
appropriate hire people to do it.



 In terms of the mechanics,

 1. Change the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s
 best addressable map”

While I think addresses are important, I'm not sure this is really a
rallying cry. Having tools that make it easier to import addresses and
collect them will certainly assist with the usability of the map.


 2. The board figures out how to voluntarily shrink to 3-5 people, and,
 meets in person 2-4 times a year

3. Consulting with the community on exact roles and remit, hire 1-3 people
 [*]

This consultation process is important and I don't think one the community
can do on our own. There are plenty of groups that could assist, some of
which I've worked with directly before in other groups.

Regarding your [*] regarding funding I completely agree. If anything the
OSMF has turned away funding over the years, maybe not in as direct a way
as someone trying to hand them a check (though I could see that might have
happened) but communities with less impact on the world receive way more
funding easily than the OSMF currently does.

I do think at some point it would be good to speak at length about
funding often when discussing funding I feel there is not much knowledge
about the different ways that could be approached. Seeking funding for a
project such as OSM is not a new thing and there are many other groups we
could learn from. There are people that are willing to help if we simply
asked.

Best,

-Kate


 Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3
 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better,
 we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map
 ever again,

Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

Hi Kate,

Replies in-line.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do think
 however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF membership
 isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I frequently
 have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board elections)
 are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow the
 flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For example
 most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or legal
 matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not a bad
 thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.

I think you're connecting board membership with officer positions and
that doesn't need to be connected.

It's possible (and often preferable) to have a board of people who
oversee the officers but are not one of them. That also gives you
flexibility because your board can say We will nominate so-and-so to
be CEO and so-and-so to be CFO, rather than using terms like
President and Treasurer. It also means the board positions can be
equal, if the board so chooses.

I think that this argument of separation of concerns makes a lot of
sense, I think that board members should be members, but officers may
not need to be.

 Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
 Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff on
 an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers while
 attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January it was
 the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the manure.
 Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours, grooming
 horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously look at
 what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is appropriate
 hire people to do it.

Yes, and adding on, some recognition would also be nice, even for volunteers.

Last month I received an extremely nasty, rude email from someone
about actions that I took as part of my DWG duties. That email
insulted me, attacked my sexuality, was vaguely threatening to my
fiancee, etc. and the board was CCed by the original author. None of
the board members or members of management team (who was also CCed)
said a word about it.

This kind of dismissal for our feelings as individuals as we put work
into the project is really disheartening.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

I want to actually apologize for one mis-statement. Michael Collinson
from the MT actually was very good about this and one-on-one, board
members who I speak with have been kind/supportive,

I want to also point out that this is not about me getting recognition
for my work on OSM, but about the general lack of support that the
volunteers can get from the board, when just a pat on the back would
be nice.

The board is under incredible stress and strain, and they're
volunteers like the rest of us, but there's a ton of work being done
by groups like the Operations Team, the License Working Group, the
Management Team, the Communications Working Group, the Data Working
Group, etc. All of these folks deserve more support and recognition.

- Serge

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Kate,

 Replies in-line.

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do think
 however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF membership
 isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I frequently
 have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board elections)
 are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow the
 flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For example
 most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or legal
 matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not a bad
 thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.

 I think you're connecting board membership with officer positions and
 that doesn't need to be connected.

 It's possible (and often preferable) to have a board of people who
 oversee the officers but are not one of them. That also gives you
 flexibility because your board can say We will nominate so-and-so to
 be CEO and so-and-so to be CFO, rather than using terms like
 President and Treasurer. It also means the board positions can be
 equal, if the board so chooses.

 I think that this argument of separation of concerns makes a lot of
 sense, I think that board members should be members, but officers may
 not need to be.

 Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
 Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff on
 an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers while
 attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January it was
 the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the manure.
 Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours, grooming
 horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously look at
 what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is appropriate
 hire people to do it.

 Yes, and adding on, some recognition would also be nice, even for volunteers.

 Last month I received an extremely nasty, rude email from someone
 about actions that I took as part of my DWG duties. That email
 insulted me, attacked my sexuality, was vaguely threatening to my
 fiancee, etc. and the board was CCed by the original author. None of
 the board members or members of management team (who was also CCed)
 said a word about it.

 This kind of dismissal for our feelings as individuals as we put work
 into the project is really disheartening.

 - Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map


Serge

I want to apologize in case you missed explicit support from me (and the
board), it was likely just a miscommunication given that the person in
question lambasted essentially everybody that he had ever had contact
with and you in discussion suggested that we simply ignore him.

Simon


Am 22.10.2014 22:54, schrieb Serge Wroclawski:
 I want to actually apologize for one mis-statement. Michael Collinson
 from the MT actually was very good about this and one-on-one, board
 members who I speak with have been kind/supportive,

 I want to also point out that this is not about me getting recognition
 for my work on OSM, but about the general lack of support that the
 volunteers can get from the board, when just a pat on the back would
 be nice.

 The board is under incredible stress and strain, and they're
 volunteers like the rest of us, but there's a ton of work being done
 by groups like the Operations Team, the License Working Group, the
 Management Team, the Communications Working Group, the Data Working
 Group, etc. All of these folks deserve more support and recognition.

 - Serge

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Kate,

 Replies in-line.

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do think
 however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF membership
 isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I frequently
 have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board elections)
 are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow the
 flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For example
 most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or legal
 matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not a bad
 thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.
 I think you're connecting board membership with officer positions and
 that doesn't need to be connected.

 It's possible (and often preferable) to have a board of people who
 oversee the officers but are not one of them. That also gives you
 flexibility because your board can say We will nominate so-and-so to
 be CEO and so-and-so to be CFO, rather than using terms like
 President and Treasurer. It also means the board positions can be
 equal, if the board so chooses.

 I think that this argument of separation of concerns makes a lot of
 sense, I think that board members should be members, but officers may
 not need to be.

 Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
 Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff on
 an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers while
 attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January it was
 the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the manure.
 Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours, grooming
 horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously look at
 what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is appropriate
 hire people to do it.
 Yes, and adding on, some recognition would also be nice, even for volunteers.

 Last month I received an extremely nasty, rude email from someone
 about actions that I took as part of my DWG duties. That email
 insulted me, attacked my sexuality, was vaguely threatening to my
 fiancee, etc. and the board was CCed by the original author. None of
 the board members or members of management team (who was also CCed)
 said a word about it.

 This kind of dismissal for our feelings as individuals as we put work
 into the project is really disheartening.

 - Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

Simon,

Thanks for that. I want to make it clear that my frustration is not
based on any one incident, but rather that I just wish the board did
more to recognize the hard work of the dozens of individuals who
volunteer hours of their time to this project in so many ways.

I feel that the working groups often get short shrift. The board gets
a lot of attention (positive and negative) but it's the working groups
(and a special and emphatic emphasis on the work of Operations Team)
that make OSM possible.

The DWG gets a lot of abuse thrown at us, and I think something in
Kate's email really spoke to that idea of fun. I've never considered
the work I do for the DWG to be fun. I find it stressful and
frustrating. Sometimes I find it sad, but never fun.

We may need a staff to do certain jobs, but whether we do decide to
hire a staff or not, it'd be great if the volunteers we do have now
got a bit more recognition for their hard work.

- Serge

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:

 Serge

 I want to apologize in case you missed explicit support from me (and the
 board), it was likely just a miscommunication given that the person in
 question lambasted essentially everybody that he had ever had contact
 with and you in discussion suggested that we simply ignore him.

 Simon


 Am 22.10.2014 22:54, schrieb Serge Wroclawski:
 I want to actually apologize for one mis-statement. Michael Collinson
 from the MT actually was very good about this and one-on-one, board
 members who I speak with have been kind/supportive,

 I want to also point out that this is not about me getting recognition
 for my work on OSM, but about the general lack of support that the
 volunteers can get from the board, when just a pat on the back would
 be nice.

 The board is under incredible stress and strain, and they're
 volunteers like the rest of us, but there's a ton of work being done
 by groups like the Operations Team, the License Working Group, the
 Management Team, the Communications Working Group, the Data Working
 Group, etc. All of these folks deserve more support and recognition.

 - Serge

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Kate,

 Replies in-line.

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do 
 think
 however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF membership
 isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I frequently
 have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board elections)
 are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow the
 flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For example
 most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or legal
 matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not a bad
 thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.
 I think you're connecting board membership with officer positions and
 that doesn't need to be connected.

 It's possible (and often preferable) to have a board of people who
 oversee the officers but are not one of them. That also gives you
 flexibility because your board can say We will nominate so-and-so to
 be CEO and so-and-so to be CFO, rather than using terms like
 President and Treasurer. It also means the board positions can be
 equal, if the board so chooses.

 I think that this argument of separation of concerns makes a lot of
 sense, I think that board members should be members, but officers may
 not need to be.

 Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
 Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff 
 on
 an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers 
 while
 attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January it 
 was
 the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the manure.
 Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours, grooming
 horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously look at
 what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is appropriate
 hire people to do it.
 Yes, and adding on, some recognition would also be nice, even for 
 volunteers.

 Last month I received an extremely nasty, rude email from someone
 about actions that I took as part of my DWG duties. That email
 insulted me, attacked my sexuality, was vaguely threatening to my
 fiancee, etc. and the board was CCed by the original author. None of
 the board members or members of management team (who was also CCed)
 said a word about it.

 This kind of dismissal for our feelings as individuals as we put work
 into the project is really disheartening.

 - Serge
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[OSM-talk] SotM 2014 program and AGM

2014-10-22 Per discussione Rob Nickerson

Hi all,

The program for SotM 2014 is now available. This includes the date and time
of the Annual General Meeting of the OSM Foundation.

SotM:
http://stateofthemap.org/program

AGM:
http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Annual_General_Meetings/14

I'd like to thank everyone involved in pulling this years program together,
including all who submitted a talk for consideration, the evaluation team,
and the local sotm team for putting the final program together (it's no
small task to try to put talks of a similar theme together within the
limits of time and available rooms).

Best,
Rob
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[OSM-talk] Applications to the Local Chapter Agreement

2014-10-22 Per discussione Rob Nickerson

Simon,

I note in [1] that there are now three applications to the Local Chapter
Agreement [2] and these are being processed now.

In light of the current discussions on transparency and holding the board
to account, can I ask whether it possible to disclose these just in case
there are any other local groups that feel they represent the geographic
regions included in the first three applications.

Also I'm curious :-)

Best,
Rob

[1]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2014-October/002697.html
[2] http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_OSMF_Chapters
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

Am 22.10.2014 23:38, schrieb Kate Chapman:
 ...

 I was not suggested the entire board would be non-affiliated.  There
 are different approaches to this and you can look at other
 organizations with mixed boards. Checks and balances are possible,
 especially with a membership.
Just to clarify. My reference to non-affiliated was as in: not working
for a company or organisation with a direct financial or other interest
in OSM, or in other words the a prototypical  OSM contributor.

Simon



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[OSM-talk] A Better strikeMap\strike community

2014-10-22 Per discussione Rob Nickerson

Kate Chapman wrote:


 What would you like the board to do to recognize the work of the
volunteers?


Hi Kate,

Personally I don't want a pat on the back, but I would like to more
prominently see the OSMF board actively supporting the community.

For example, In my view we are long overdue some work to the community
portals of OSM. We've had iD and the redesign of the main website, but
communication channels have seen little attention recently and in my
opinion are not supporting a healthy community.

Earlier today I read the scope of the CWG [1]. I quote:

The group will do some analysis of the different channels, and areas where
problems can be seen, e.g. signal-to-noise ratio of community discussions,
and possibly develop some ideas for making improvements.

I would like to pick this up and push it forward bringing in aspects such
as diversity, a code of conduct, some way to tackle the increasing levels
of spam on the OSM Diary feature and making community discussion a more
prominent feature accessible via the front page. However I am only willing
to do this if I can see that my effort has a chance of actually going
somewhere. This means that if we were to identify some requirements such as
a need for funding to build something, or getting a change to the main
website, or (shock-horror) sending a single email to all registered members
asking them if they'd like to join a email subscription, I would at least
be heard by the board. Right now I'm not sure I would.

(In regards to that last one I know I wouldn't be supported because I've
raised it before and got nowhere. And getting a sotm banner on osm.org can
be an uphill battle too!)

Regards,
Rob

[1] http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Communication_Working_Group
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Re: [OSM-talk] Applications to the Local Chapter Agreement

Hi Rob

 I had the feeling that I had announced something outside of the board,
but that may simply be a figment of my imagination. Applications have
been received from Iceland, Italy and Japan.  All three have the honor
and the pain of having to beta test the procedure, mainly providing us
with some additional documentation. I'm sure translating the respective
articles is the main issue, but I can't see how minimal due diligence
can be avoided without creating a liability nightmare.

There are further organisations that have indicated their willingness to
join us and I would expect a few more applications in the next couple of
months.

Simon


Am 22.10.2014 23:41, schrieb Rob Nickerson:
 Simon,

 I note in [1] that there are now three applications to the Local
 Chapter Agreement [2] and these are being processed now.

 In light of the current discussions on transparency and holding the
 board to account, can I ask whether it possible to disclose these just
 in case there are any other local groups that feel they represent the
 geographic regions included in the first three applications.

 Also I'm curious :-)

 Best,
 Rob

 [1]
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2014-October/002697.html
 [2] http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_OSMF_Chapters



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Re: [OSM-talk] A Better strikeMap\strike community

Am 23.10.2014 00:42, schrieb Rob Nickerson:
  However I am only willing to do this if I can see that my effort has
 a chance of actually going somewhere. This means that if we were to
 identify some requirements such as a need for funding to build
 something, or getting a change to the main website,
Rob, this is obviously not well known, so I'll just restate it again.

in every budget process I've been involved in the OSMF up to now, the
board has literally begged (via the MT) for budgets from the working
groups and projects to be supported. That has with the exception of the
OWG (capex for hardware) and the LWG (trademark registrations) not
resulted in any echo at all (the LWG doesn't even really count).

No guarantees that everything will be approved by the MT and board,, but
if you don't ask you are going to get exactly 0. Not quite true btw :-)
we have in the past tried allocating at least small budgets regardless
of what the WGs have asked for, didn't work, the funds were never used.

.
 or (shock-horror) sending a single email to all registered members
 asking them if they'd like to join a email subscription, I would at
 least be heard by the board. Right now I'm not sure I would.

 (In regards to that last one I know I wouldn't be supported because
 I've raised it before and got nowhere. And getting a sotm banner on
 osm.org http://osm.org can be an uphill battle too!)


Very touchy issue, there are just a lot of legal and cultural issues
involved. I wouldn't take reservations about doing it with mail as a no
to the idea of more communications to users, just experience turning on
blinking red lights.

My personal preference would be to implement the News sidebar/drop
down as originally intended in the redesign of the website. 2nd choice
some kind of opt in on sign up system for information mails, won't work
well retroactively and you will find whole countries not ticking such a
box. I'm sure there are more ideas that might work better.

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione christian.pietz...@googlemail.com

Kate,

That's a great question. I recently joined the CWG, so maybe its my
job now to fix this, but I feel like generally there's a deep seated
communication problem in OSM.

On one hand you have the vast majority of mappers who don't know what
the OSMF is, or if they do, probably aren't members.

Then we have the OSM community who sticks around and is participatory.
Sadly if you look at the current candidates for the board, most of
them have never even been in a working group. I think the one
exception may actually be Frederik, who is currently serving on the
board. It illustrates a series of serious problems (perhaps I should
expand on that on another thread).

As for what the OSMF can do... generally be more communicative and
supportive with the people that keep the project going. As Simon
points out, there's a budge proposal period, but I think that the OSMF
could be doing more analysis with the WG's. Sometimes it's not clear
when you're in the middle of something that it could be solved with
money (vs time/effort).

I just think that the discussion regarding the OSMF, and paid staff
especially, ignores the fact that a great deal of work is done today
by people who are happy to do it (as I am) but feel that the board
could hilight this work, get more volunteers involved, and encourage
those who want to lead to be participatory in the organization.

- Serge

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:
 Hi Serge,

 What would you like the board to do to recognize the work of the volunteers?
 Within HOT for example we've learned culturally people don't necessarily
 even want the same type of recognition. I'm sorry I should have sent you a
 message regarding the tirade, it was not empathic of me. I honestly only
 read the first paragraph and then ignored it as I thought I was supposed to
 do. From a human perspective however I should have talked you.

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:

 Simon,

 The DWG gets a lot of abuse thrown at us, and I think something in
 Kate's email really spoke to that idea of fun. I've never considered
 the work I do for the DWG to be fun. I find it stressful and
 frustrating. Sometimes I find it sad, but never fun.


 I think within volunteering there are a couple different aspects that cause
 people to help. Fun is only one variable. If a job is really important for
 an organization such as the DWG for example people will do it because it is
 necessary, not because it is fun. In my example of working on a farm, there
 were volunteers who would come do very not fun jobs because they knew they
 were needed. There were also jobs that it was extremely hard to get people
 to help.



 We may need a staff to do certain jobs, but whether we do decide to
 hire a staff or not, it'd be great if the volunteers we do have now
 got a bit more recognition for their hard work.


 As I stated before I'm a bit unsure how to respond to this. I suppose one
 thing we can say now is everyone is a volunteer and not getting any
 recognition! Anyway, what I mean by that is I'm unsure exactly what people
 want. I appreciate the working groups and the jobs that people do that I
 would never have the patience to do. The fact that the servers run, we don't
 get shutdown because of data licensing and all out edit wars don't destroy
 the map is a testament to everyone that spends hours volunteering.

 -Kate


 - Serge

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
  Serge
 
  I want to apologize in case you missed explicit support from me (and the
  board), it was likely just a miscommunication given that the person in
  question lambasted essentially everybody that he had ever had contact
  with and you in discussion suggested that we simply ignore him.
 
  Simon
 
 
  Am 22.10.2014 22:54, schrieb Serge Wroclawski:
  I want to actually apologize for one mis-statement. Michael Collinson
  from the MT actually was very good about this and one-on-one, board
  members who I speak with have been kind/supportive,
 
  I want to also point out that this is not about me getting recognition
  for my work on OSM, but about the general lack of support that the
  volunteers can get from the board, when just a pat on the back would
  be nice.
 
  The board is under incredible stress and strain, and they're
  volunteers like the rest of us, but there's a ton of work being done
  by groups like the Operations Team, the License Working Group, the
  Management Team, the Communications Working Group, the Data Working
  Group, etc. All of these folks deserve more support and recognition.
 
  - Serge
 
  On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  Hi Kate,
 
  Replies in-line.
 
  On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com
  wrote:
 
  I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I
  do think
  however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF

Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Maps for townland plotting

2014-10-22 Per discussione Donal Diamond

Uploaded:
http://mapwarper.net/maps/4820

Good Luck!

D


On 22 October 2014 16:52, Mark Tully markjtu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could I please request 20/21 NW

 Thanks,
 Mark

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Donal Diamond donal.diam...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  IRL-GSGS-3906-26-21-NE-Clane.tif  uploaded
 
  http://mapwarper.net/maps/4800
 
  D
 
  On 20 October 2014 16:45, John Kennedy jkenned...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   Impressive work. I would like to request
26/21 NE
  
   Thx,
- John
  
   On 19 October 2014 21:42, Patrick Matthews mullinalag...@gmail.com
   wrote:
Thanks Donal
   
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Donal Diamond 
  donal.diam...@gmail.com
wrote:
   
On 19 October 2014 16:47, Patrick Matthews mullinalag...@gmail.com
 
wrote:
   
 I would like to request

 20-27-NW,
 20-27-SW,
 20-27-SE,
 23-27-SW.

   
Done:
   
   
   
   
  
 
 http://mapwarper.net/maps?field=titlequery=IRL-GSGS-3906-20-27show_warped=0
   
   
   
  
 
 http://mapwarper.net/maps?field=titlequery=IRL-GSGS-3906-23-27show_warped=0
   
Donal
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[Talk-br] Reunião semanal OSM Brasil

2014-10-22 Per discussione Thierry Jean

Caros,
 
O Gotomeeting é uma ferramenta mais estável e fácil de usar. Me emprestaram uma 
licença para fazer nossa reunião de hoje. A aplicação mobile Gotomeeting 
funciona muito bem. É só baixar o app e inserir o ID do meeting: 834-747-365
 
1.  Please join my meeting.
https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/834747365
2.  Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended.  Or, 
call in using your telephone.
Dial +1 (872) 240-3312
Access Code: 834-747-365
Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting
Meeting ID: 834-747-365
GoToMeeting® 
Online Meetings Made Easy®

Thierry Jean
+55 11 99607 1319


 
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Re: [Talk-br] Lombadas no OSM

2014-10-22 Per discussione Gian Piero Castagno


Gostei também,
so acrescentar para o sonorizador traffic_calming=rumble_strip:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_calming%3Drumble_strip

Abraços
Gian Piero
On 21/10/2014 09:36, Gerald Weber wrote:

Ficou ótimo!

Prático e direto ao assunto como este tipo de documentação deve ser. 
Gostei muito.


Desconheço sinônimos ou apelidos para sonorizador, mas mapear este tipo de 
estrutura me parece um preciosismo. Diferente de mapear lombadas que às 
vezes são de difícil visualização, principalmente à noite. Neste caso ter 
um alerta é bastante interessante. Além do mais lombadas também servem de 
referência (depois da lombada vire à direita).


abraço

Gerald



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[Talk-is] Access Address Register licence mini-revision

2014-10-22 Per discussione Svavar Kjarrval

CC: talk-is  Tryggvi Björgvinsson

Greetings legal-talk list.

There is an upcoming mini-revision of a user licence for the database
called Access Address Register (Icelandic: staðfangaskrá) which is
maintained by Registers Iceland. The plan in the long run is to
implement a more open government licence which has yet to be finished.
In the meantime, there might be cause to patch the current licence.

For this process, I would like to gather any comments regarding which
parts of the licence could be improved in order for it to conform with
OSM's Contributor Terms and/or any ambiguityin that regard. The current
licence is located at
http://www.skra.is/fasteignaskra/stadfangaskra/user-licence/

Do you have any comments you would like for me to convey?

With regards,
Svavar Kjarrval



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[Talk-de] Wochenaufgabe KW 43/44 Recycling

Hallo
ich darf verkünden, dass es, nachdem wir es die letzten Wochen zeitlich
neben der Wochennotiz nicht geschafft haben eine Wochenaufgabe auf die
Beine zu stellen, nun wieder eine gibt.
Wochenaufgabe KW 43/44 Recycling
http://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2014/10/9581
Ich wünsch euch viel Spaß und werde versuchen die Fortschritte einmal am
Tag zu dokumentieren.

Damit wir die Wochenaufgabe in Zukunft wieder regelmäßiger bereitstellen zu
können, suchen wir noch immer Leute, die daran mitarbeiten wollen. Am
besten melden sich Interessenten unter blog(at)openstreetmap.de

mfg
Hedaja
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[Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Roland Ramthun

Hallo Leute,

die Karte auf http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html ist seit
mindestens gestern Nachmittag defekt.

Ich erinnere mich, dass es mal ein Repository mit den Webseite-Quellen
gab, kann es aber momentan nicht finden.

Daher bin ich dankbar für Hinweise, wo das Repository ist und was evtl.
kaputt sein könnte bzw. eine Reparatur.

Vielen Dank und beste Grüße, Roland

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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Peter Schmidt

Hallo,

kannst du vielleicht sagen, was an der Seite nicht geht? Ich bin etwas
bewandelt in dem Gebiet von HTML, JS und PHP... Ich würde mir das mal
anschauen. Wenn du sagen würdest, was defekt ist, könnte ich den Fehler
einfacher finden.

Gruß
Peter

P.S. Benutze doch zur Not openstreetmap.org
Am 22.10.2014 15:23 schrieb Roland Ramthun o...@roland-ramthun.de:

 Hallo Leute,

 die Karte auf http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html ist seit
 mindestens gestern Nachmittag defekt.

 Ich erinnere mich, dass es mal ein Repository mit den Webseite-Quellen
 gab, kann es aber momentan nicht finden.

 Daher bin ich dankbar für Hinweise, wo das Repository ist und was evtl.
 kaputt sein könnte bzw. eine Reparatur.

 Vielen Dank und beste Grüße, Roland

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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Michael Reichert

Hallo Roland,

Am 2014-10-22 um 15:21 schrieb Roland Ramthun:
 die Karte auf http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html ist seit
 mindestens gestern Nachmittag defekt.
 
 Ich erinnere mich, dass es mal ein Repository mit den Webseite-Quellen
 gab, kann es aber momentan nicht finden.
 
 Daher bin ich dankbar für Hinweise, wo das Repository ist und was evtl.
 kaputt sein könnte bzw. eine Reparatur.

Die liegt im internationalen SVN unter
http://svn.openstreetmap.org/sites/www.openstreetmap.de/var/www/www.openstreetmap.de/

Viele Grüße

Michael


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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Sven Geggus

Roland Ramthun o...@roland-ramthun.de wrote:

 die Karte auf http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html ist seit
 mindestens gestern Nachmittag defekt.

Ich vermute, dass das mit der kaputten Platte auf dem devserver
zusammenhängt auf dem dieses komische iLike OSM läuft.

Sven

-- 
AMZN US won't let me buy MP3s b/c I have UK credit cards. Amazon UK won't   
let me buy MP3s b/c I'm in the US. P2P doesn't care. Go copyright!
(Cory Doctorow)
/me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Sven Geggus

Sven Geggus li...@fuchsschwanzdomain.de wrote:

 Ich vermute, dass das mit der kaputten Platte auf dem devserver
 zusammenhängt auf dem dieses komische iLike OSM läuft.

Das wars ich hab das fürs Erste mal im Quellcode auskommentiert.

Gruss

Sven

-- 
Microsoft ist offenbar die einzige Firma, die in der Lage ist, ein mit
Office nicht kompatibles Bürosoftwarepaket einzuführen.
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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Caronna


Am 22.10.2014 um 15:28 schrieb Peter Schmidt:

kannst du vielleicht sagen, was an der Seite nicht geht? Ich bin etwas
bewandelt in dem Gebiet von HTML, JS und PHP... Ich würde mir das mal
anschauen. Wenn du sagen würdest, was defekt ist, könnte ich den Fehler


zumindest bei mir kommt auch ne leere Seite.
auf .org ist aber alles in Ordnung

Grüße aus der Eifel
Steffen


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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Peter Schmidt

Hallo,

es geht jetzt auf einmal wieder!

Gruß
Peter
Am 22.10.2014 15:44 schrieb Sven Geggus li...@fuchsschwanzdomain.de:

 Roland Ramthun o...@roland-ramthun.de wrote:

  die Karte auf http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html ist seit
  mindestens gestern Nachmittag defekt.

 Ich vermute, dass das mit der kaputten Platte auf dem devserver
 zusammenhängt auf dem dieses komische iLike OSM läuft.

 Sven

 --
 AMZN US won't let me buy MP3s b/c I have UK credit cards. Amazon UK won't
 let me buy MP3s b/c I'm in the US. P2P doesn't care. Go copyright!
 (Cory Doctorow)
 /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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[Talk-de] Recycling Containerbezeichnung

2014-10-22 Per discussione Helmut Kauer

Griaß eich,
im Landkreis TS gibt es Container für Weißblech und Kronkorken, Alu und 
Schrott werden auf den Wertstoffhöfen gesammelt. Kommt auch daher, 
dass in die Container nur Grüner Punkt soll. Die anderen Fraktionen 
werden auch anders abgerechnet.
Am ehesten sollte wohl 
recycling:sheet_metal=yes/no 
gewalzte Bleche 

passen, jedoch werden damit die meisten Kartennutzer nichts anfangen 
können.

Habt Ihr einen Tip für mich?

Danke
Helmut



-- 
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Bodelschwinghstraße 35
83301 Traunreut
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Re: [Talk-de] Recycling Containerbezeichnung

2014-10-22 Per discussione Helmut Kauer

Griaß eich,
hat sich erledigt. Wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil:
recycling:cans

Helmut

Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 16:10:45 schrieb Helmut Kauer:
 Griaß eich,
 im Landkreis TS gibt es Container für Weißblech und Kronkorken, Alu und
 Schrott werden auf den Wertstoffhöfen gesammelt. Kommt auch daher,
 dass in die Container nur Grüner Punkt soll. Die anderen Fraktionen
 werden auch anders abgerechnet.
 Am ehesten sollte wohl
 recycling:sheet_metal=yes/no
 gewalzte Bleche
 
 passen, jedoch werden damit die meisten Kartennutzer nichts anfangen
 können.
 
 Habt Ihr einen Tip für mich?
 
 Danke
 Helmut

-- 
Helmut Kauer
Bodelschwinghstraße 35
83301 Traunreut


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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Sven Geggus

Peter Schmidt ungespielts@gmail.com wrote:

 es geht jetzt auf einmal wieder!

Siehe m28cj1$4eg$1...@home.geggus.net

Gruss

Sven

-- 
Ich fürchte mich nicht vor der Rückkehr der Faschisten in der Maske der
Faschisten, sondern vor der Rückkehr der Faschisten in der Maske der
Demokraten (Theodor W. Adorno)
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Re: [Talk-de] OSM/Mapillary mapping party in Karlsruhe 26. November?

2014-10-22 Per discussione Peter Neubauer

Danke Sven für den Tipp!

/peter

2014-10-20 17:01 GMT+02:00 Sven Geggus li...@fuchsschwanzdomain.de:
 Peter Neubauer pe...@neubauer.se wrote:

 ich wollte nur Fragen ob es interessierte OSM-Mitglieder in Karlsruhe gibt

 http://lists.openstreetmap.de/mailman/listinfo/karlsruhe

 Stammtisch ist eine Woche früher am 19.11.

 Gruss

 Sven

 --
 We don't know the OS that God uses, but the Vatican uses Linux
(Sister Judith Zoebelein, Vatican Webmaster)

 /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] Karte auf openstreetmap.de defekt

2014-10-22 Per discussione Wolfgang Hinsch

Hi,

Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 13:48:17 schrieb Sven Geggus:
 Sven Geggus li...@fuchsschwanzdomain.de wrote:
  Ich vermute, dass das mit der kaputten Platte auf dem devserver
  zusammenhängt auf dem dieses komische iLike OSM läuft.
 
 Das wars ich hab das fürs Erste mal im Quellcode auskommentiert.
 

Von mir aus kann es auskommentiert bleiben. Wer brauchts?

Gruß, Wolfgang

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Re: [Talk-it] Oneway vs access=no


Il 10/21/2014 10:39 PM, Any File scrisse:

Però nel caso in questione non saprei proprio dire se è senso unico o
meno. Ma finora avevo sempre pensato che fosse senso unico.
(ed ammetto che raramente guardo se ci sia il cartello senso unico,
dove dall'altra parte c'è un cartello divieto di accesso).


Quella strada secondo me non e' a senso unico. Ci possono entrare i 
tram, i taxi, i mezzi di soccorso, i ciclisti.
100 metri dopo la strada ha delle restrizioni diverse ma in generale le 
auto private possono percorrerla nei 2 sensi. E se non vedessi i 
cartelli non ti accorgeresti di una discontinuita' tra i 2 tratti.
All'imbocco da Canova-Melzi d'Eril c'e' un divieto d'accesso per alcuni 
tipi di veicoli ma la strada resta a doppio senso.


Non c'e' separazione fisica tra i 2 sensi, non ci sono cordoli.

Impostarla a senso unico e' anche fuorviante per chi guarda la mappa. Se 
io ciclista vedo la mappa, ritengo che quello sia un senso unico e 
faccio un altro percorso.


ciao
maxx

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Re: [Talk-it] Oneway vs access=no

2014-10-22 8:09 GMT+02:00 emmexx emm...@tiscalinet.it:

Quella strada secondo me non e' a senso unico. Ci possono entrare i tram,
i taxi, i mezzi di soccorso, i ciclisti.

se c'è un senso unico per le macchine è oneway=yes, poi per gli eccezioni
si mettono eccezioni, tipo oneway:tram=no o oneway:psv=no ecc.

100 metri dopo la strada ha delle restrizioni diverse ma in generale le
auto private possono percorrerla nei 2 sensi. E se non vedessi i cartelli
non ti accorgeresti di una discontinuita' tra i 2 tratti.

come sappiamo probabilmente tutti, il cartello rilevante per un oneway è
questo:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senso_unico#mediaviewer/File:Senso_Unico_left.jpg
mentre questo
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senso_unico#mediaviewer/File:Italian_traffic_signs_-_senso_vietato.svg
non è un oneway da solo, vuol dire soltanto che a quel punto non si può
andare in quella direzione.

Impostarla a senso unico e' anche fuorviante per chi guarda la mappa. Se io
ciclista vedo la mappa, ritengo che quello sia un senso unico e faccio un
altro percorso.

se la strada è taggata come oneway:bicycle=no mi aspetterei da una mappa
_per bici_ di non mostrarmi un senso unico (o di farmi capire in un altro
modo che posso comunque prendere la strada in bici). Quando vado in
macchina e vedo una strada che non è a senso unico nella mappa, ma lo è
nella realtà, mi si creano delle difficoltà. I particolari di access e
oneway servono sopratutto per i router, che devono avere informazioni
corrette, il rendering non potrà mai indicare per tutti i tipi di veicoli
l'accessibilità relativa.

ciao,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-it] Oneway vs access=no

Il 10/22/2014 09:56 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer scrisse:

2014-10-22 8:09 GMT+02:00 emmexx emm...@tiscalinet.it
mailto:emm...@tiscalinet.it:

Quella strada secondo me non e' a senso unico. Ci possono entrare i
tram, i taxi, i mezzi di soccorso, i ciclisti.

se c'è un senso unico per le macchine è oneway=yes, poi per gli
eccezioni si mettono eccezioni, tipo oneway:tram=no o oneway:psv=no ecc.

Martin, e' la stessa strada per cui qualche giorno fa avevi risposto il
contrario! :-)

La strada e' indicata con segnaletica orizzontale come preferenziale
(righe gialle, scritte TRAM TAXI) per una ventina di metri, dall'imbocco
al primo passo carraio.

Infatti non c'e' il cartello di senso unico ma quello di divieto
d'accesso. Come si sposa questo con cio' che hai scritto sopra?

se la strada è taggata come oneway:bicycle=no mi aspetterei da una mappa
_per bici_ di non mostrarmi un senso unico (o di farmi capire in un
altro modo che posso comunque prendere la strada in bici). Quando vado
in macchina e vedo una strada che non è a senso unico nella mappa, ma lo
è nella realtà, mi si creano delle difficoltà. I particolari di access e
oneway servono sopratutto per i router, che devono avere informazioni
corrette, il rendering non potrà mai indicare per tutti i tipi di
veicoli l'accessibilità relativa.

Quindi Mapnik non e' una mappa per bici? E' una mappa per auto?

A mio parere le difficolta' si creano piu' per i ciclisti che non per
gli automobilisti. Il ciclista si prepara il percorso prima (guardando
la mappa), l'automobilista usa il router che lo guida e gli evita di
arrivare ad imboccare una strada che non puo' percorrere.

ciao
maxx

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Re: [Talk-it] Velocizzare ricalco nodi esistenti

2014-10-22 Per discussione Simone Saviolo

Il giorno 21 ottobre 2014 12:10, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 ha scritto:


 2014-10-21 11:53 GMT+02:00 Max1234Ita max1234...@gmail.com:


 Questa del tasto F non la sapevo ancora. ho provato e... *E' FANTASTICOOO!
 8-) 8-) 8-)*

 Dannate foreste dell'Alto Oltrepo Pavese... A ME! :-p


 spero proprio che non fa botto questo sistema di duplicare ways, perché
 oltre a pesare sul db crea il prossimo incubo per chi deve aggiustare o
 modificare questi ways sovraposti. Non metto in dubbio che ci sono i casi
 d'uso sensati per questa funzione, ma le foreste a mio avviso non rientrano
 in questi casi.


Dissento. Vedi ad esempio qui [1] : se per tutti questi campi avessi usato
delle relazioni (nel primissimo pezzo l'avevo fatto), non solo ci avrei
messo una vita, ma avrei anche creato dati MOLTO più pesanti.

Facciamo il caso semplice di tutti campi quadrangolari (ci discostiamo poco
in realtà):
- senza relazioni: 4 nodi per campo MENO I NODI IN COMUNE, una way per
campo che fa riferimento ai nodi
- con relazioni: gli stessi nodi, ma quattro way per campo (che fanno
riferimento a due soli nodi ciascuna), e una relazione per campo che fa
riferimento alle way.

Se poi i margini dei campi fossero sfalsati (incrocio a T), una way
dovrebbe essere spezzata in due, creando altre way aggiuntive, che vanno
aggiunte nelle relazioni.

Quindi in realtà mi viene da dire: usiamo i multipoligoni *solo per aree
molto estese*, che comunque non andrebbero create. Ad esempio mi viene
l'orticaria a vedere queste foreste [2].

Ciao,

Simone

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/45.32327/8.36639
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/45.6194/8.2229
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Re: [Talk-it] Velocizzare ricalco nodi esistenti

2014-10-22 10:44 GMT+02:00 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com:


 spero proprio che non fa botto questo sistema di duplicare ways, perché
 oltre a pesare sul db crea il prossimo incubo per chi deve aggiustare o
 modificare questi ways sovraposti. Non metto in dubbio che ci sono i casi
 d'uso sensati per questa funzione, ma le foreste a mio avviso non rientrano
 in questi casi.


 Dissento. Vedi ad esempio qui [1] : se per tutti questi campi avessi usato
 delle relazioni (nel primissimo pezzo l'avevo fatto), non solo ci avrei
 messo una vita, ma avrei anche creato dati MOLTO più pesanti.



scusa Simone, ma non vedo foreste ;-)
io lo farei dipendere dal numero di nodi in comune. Per 1-2 (forse 3-4)
segmenti non farei una relazione, se sono di più, si. (Quindi per edifici
spesso non ha senso, per campi spesso non ha senso).




 Quindi in realtà mi viene da dire: usiamo i multipoligoni *solo per aree
 molto estese*, che comunque non andrebbero create. Ad esempio mi viene
 l'orticaria a vedere queste foreste [2].




non è un domanda della dimensione, è da guardare quanto sia complesso
(quantità di nodi). Per campi di questa forma continuerò di usare
relazioni: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.94385/12.25004

ciao,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-it] Oneway vs access=no

2014-10-22 10:27 GMT+02:00 emmexx emm...@tiscalinet.it:

se c'è un senso unico per le macchine è oneway=yes, poi per gli
 eccezioni si mettono eccezioni, tipo oneway:tram=no o oneway:psv=no ecc.


 Martin, e' la stessa strada per cui qualche giorno fa avevi risposto il
 contrario! :-)
 ...
 Infatti non c'e' il cartello di senso unico ma quello di divieto
 d'accesso. Come si sposa questo con cio' che hai scritto sopra?



per me non c'è contraddizione, avevo scritto se c'è un senso unico per le
macchine, ovviamente se non c'è quel senso unico per le macchine, non è
oneway...


Quindi Mapnik non e' una mappa per bici? E' una mappa per auto?



in sostanza si.

ciao,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-it] Oneway vs access=no


Il 10/22/2014 11:01 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer scrisse:


per me non c'è contraddizione, avevo scritto se c'è un senso unico per
le macchine, ovviamente se non c'è quel senso unico per le macchine,
non è oneway...


Il wiki non parla di macchine:

The oneway tag is used to indicate the access restriction on highways 
and other linear features as appropriate. This means that this tag 
should be used when this way can only be used in one direction. Note 
that a no entry sign prohibiting entry from one side or across one point 
of the road, does not automatically imply that the entire road is oneway 
(look for oneway signs along the road). 


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway

ciao
maxx

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Re: [Talk-it] Oneway vs access=no

2014-10-22 11:22 GMT+02:00 emmexx emm...@tiscalinet.it:

 per me non c'è contraddizione, avevo scritto se c'è un senso unico per
 le macchine, ovviamente se non c'è quel senso unico per le macchine,
 non è oneway...


 Il wiki non parla di macchine:



si, chiedo scusa, ero impreciso, macchine, moto, motorini, furgoni,
furgoncini, camion, cingolati, ... in generale tutti i veicoli.
Ovvero, oneway si mette quando c'è il segno del senso unico. Per evventuali
eccezioni si mette dei tags aggiuntivi.

ciao,
Martin
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[Talk-it] Contest Open-Matera

2014-10-22 Per discussione Francesco Piero Paolicelli

http://dati.comune.matera.it/blog/?p=43

Divertitevi 

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Re: [Talk-it] Contest Open-Matera

2014-10-22 Per discussione Francesca Valentina

Bello! Ma un mese per fare un'app?!
Il 22/Ott/2014 11:53 Francesco Piero Paolicelli pierso...@gmail.com ha
scritto:

 http://dati.comune.matera.it/blog/?p=43

 Divertitevi

 Inviato da iPhone

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Re: [Talk-it] Opendata regione Umbria

2014-10-22 Per discussione Freddi

Ci sono novità sul fronte ecografico catastale dell'Umbria?


Maurizio Napolitano-3 wrote
,non so se si
 può intraprendere la strada della richiesta di accesso tramite
 convenzione come fatto con la regione Toscana.
 
 Secondo me si ma anche di più di questo visto che la Regione Umbria e
 partita con un progetto concreto sul tema agenda digitale dal nome
 LibreUmbria

La regione Umbria, come tutti gli enti, ha molte anime. Ho avuto contatti di
lavoro con l'ufficio del Piano Urbanistico Territoriale, che credo gestisca
l'ecografico (i responsabili sono gli stessi), e non si sono dimostrati
molto aperti.
Non credo sia un caso che abbiano messo solo il wms e nessun tipo di
download, al contrario di tutti gli altri dataset presenti sul portale.
In ogni caso mi metto a disposizione per qualsiasi azione che richieda una
presenza fisica sul posto.

Andrea Fredduzzi



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Re: [Talk-it] Toponomastica e specifiche ISTAT

2014-10-22 Per discussione cascafico

Gli aggregati dei civici delle vari amministrazioni comunali recentemente
aperti dalla regione FVG necessitano di revisione. FVG ha circa
1.600/430.000 nomi da controllare.

Ho selezionato questi 1.600, tanti ma non infiniti, pensando ad un editing
manuale, crowded. Mi chiedo però (e chiedo alla ML nazionale) se sia il
caso o meno di anticipare quello che le amministrazioni dovrebbero fare a
breve, secondo la guida operativa [1] emessa da Agenzia Entrate  ISTAT.

Standardizzare i nomi alla fonte dovrebbe essere prioritario, in quanto una
semplice punteggiatura genererebbe parecchi no_match con il preesistente
OSM, e quindi addr privi di streetname.

La procedura che avevo in mente:

1- creare le query per standardizzare la fonte (abbreviazioni, correzioni,
upper/lower case, numerazioni)
2- ogr2ogr per: risolvere il multipart2singlepart dello shp regionale,
applicare le query sopra
3- org2osm per mappare i tag
4- eseguire una no_match per identificare errori residui:
  se in OSM, creare una OSM note
  se nella fonte aggiungere una query di correzione e ritornare a 2-

[1]
http://wwwt.agenziaentrate.gov.it/mt/ServiziComuniIstituzioni/GO_PortaleComuni_estratto_Toponomastica_24042014.pdf



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[Talk-it] Una mappa migliore Fwd: [OSM-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Cristian Consonni

(Rinomino l'oggetto in italiano per attirare di più l'attenzione ed
evitare il cross posting)

Steve dice:
* dobbiamo concentrarci sugli indirizzi
* in 3 anni diventeremo la migliore mappa del mondo sotto gni aspeto
* abbiamo bisogno di board (per OSMf) più snello e funzionante,
possibilmente affiancato da uno staff.

Che ne dite?

Ciao,

C


-- Forwarded message --
From: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
Date: 2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00
Subject: [OSM-talk] A Better Map
To: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org,
t...@openstreetmap.org Talk t...@openstreetmap.org


Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time
making maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun. It’s a neat hobby
and we’re making the world a slightly better place.

You need the right environment for things to be fun. Someone has to
install the toys in the playground. Someone needs to pay for the
slides and install the swings so that the kids can run around. Then
someone else needs to fix them when they fail and make sure you don’t
break your neck unexpectedly.

In the past I’ve tried hard to make OSM a fun playground, by doing
things like taking all the warning labels off and letting people do
whatever they like. Things like open tagging or letting anyone edit,
which were crazy ideas in 2004. I’ve also at times been responsible
for it not being fun. Partly because I was a kid learning the hard way
and partly because sometimes you need to make decisions.

I agree that in some ways OSM isn’t a fun playground right now. But
that doesn’t mean it can’t be again.

We had a lot of fun with our swings and our slides. But now there are
a lot more people to join the fun from far away places and we’re
older. Maybe we now prefer bumper cars and video games to the old
swings and slides.

We should keep the swings and the slides. People new to the playground
will still enjoy them. But we should also build a bumper car arena and
maybe a video game arcade. Sometimes we might go back and play on the
slide too. We need some new skills to build these new toys.

Together, we need a mission and then a couple of course corrections to
make it happen.

I think addressing should be our mission. We built the worlds best
display map already. We won. If you print out any OSM map of
practically anywhere, it’s the best. But we can’t find anything on it
without comprehensive and global addressing information. It’s the
hidden data behind the map we now need to go after. All the other
things we need to do are also good things. Diversity in all it’s
forms, faster servers, better tools, easier documentation and more.

A clear mission provides a framework and guidance for achieving those
things. “Map more stuff” got us very, very far. But now, we should
focus on what’s stopping us replacing proprietary maps. And that is
addressing.

How would we go achieve that?

There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the
board bandwidth.

The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard
to achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for
five minutes in a conversation on some issue, you use over half an
hour. In an hour-long meeting that means you can barely discuss two
things. Ignoring all the other issues, just the pure mechanics shows
you how hard it is to talk through something let alone achieve a
consensus. The board needs to be 3 people. 5 at maximum.

Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most
people aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they
need to please everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend
meetings because they have a day job and other life commitments. The
board needs to meet in person regularly with a facilitator and also
have guidance about what it means to be on a board. We can’t expect
volunteers to naturally figure all this stuff out by themselves and
then also devote the time to also achieve goals.

The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid
staff can do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are
things that volunteers don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t
happen at all, but are still very important for a functioning
organization. Having paid staff isn’t about deprecating volunteer
involvement, it’s about plugging the gaps. It’s not a perfect solution
but the alternative is to rely on companies to do many of these
things, and that really isn’t perfect either.

In terms of the mechanics,

1. Change the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The
world’s best addressable map”
2. The board figures out how to voluntarily shrink to 3-5 people, and,
meets in person 2-4 times a year
3. Consulting with the community on exact roles and remit, hire 1-3 people [*]

Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3
years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly
better, we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody

Re: [Talk-it] Aiuto:lettera da inviare a comune siciliano per l'apertura dei dati

2014-10-22 Per discussione Germano Massullo

Sto integrando parti della tua lettera in e-mail PEC che sto inviando a
vari comuni.
Grazie

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[Talk-it] Cportal

2014-10-22 Per discussione sabas88

Ciao,
diversi uffici tecnici di comuni hanno adottato questo portale
http://www.cportal.it/
es. http://www.albenga.cportal.it/Cartografia.aspx
Che in diversi casi offre il download di piccole aree dai vari tematismi.
Ho provato a scrivere qualche giorno fa per chiedere se sono conformi al
CAD e se è possibile mettere a disposizione i download in versione
completa, ma non hanno ancora risposto.

Se qualcuno ha tempo / voglia di prender contatti telefonici...

Ciao,
Stefano
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Re: [Talk-it] Una mappa migliore Fwd: [OSM-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione Luca Delucchi

On 22 October 2014 14:23, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com wrote:
 (Rinomino l'oggetto in italiano per attirare di più l'attenzione ed
 evitare il cross posting)

 Steve dice:
 * dobbiamo concentrarci sugli indirizzi

per me  ognuno mappa ciò che vuole, non devono essere date direttive e
soprattutto non posso ne vedere ne sentire “The
world’s best addressable map”

 * in 3 anni diventeremo la migliore mappa del mondo sotto gni aspeto

anche qui non sono sono del tutto d'accordo, continuo a vedere cose in
giro per l'Italia che mi fanno piangere (alcune sono dovute ad import
automatici, altre ad inesperienza dei mappatori), se pensiamo alla
mappa mondiale probabilmente è anche vero ma se andiamo a cercare
elementi specifici si rischia di fare figuracce. Infine non è
possibile non avere il formato poligonale tra le tipologia di elementi
esistenti nel db

 Che ne dite?


soprattutto riguardo il primo punto spero che Steve non stia cercando
di indirizzare OSM verso qualcosa che possa servire ai suoi datori di
lavoro.

 Ciao,

 C



-- 
ciao
Luca

http://gis.cri.fmach.it/delucchi/
www.lucadelu.org

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Re: [Talk-it] Una mappa migliore Fwd: [OSM-talk] A Better Map

2014-10-22 Per discussione sabas88

2014-10-22 14:23 GMT+02:00 Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com:

 (Rinomino l'oggetto in italiano per attirare di più l'attenzione ed
 evitare il cross posting)

 Steve dice:
 * dobbiamo concentrarci sugli indirizzi


Certo, è là che c'è il cash $$$


 * in 3 anni diventeremo la migliore mappa del mondo sotto gni aspeto


Solo se continuano ad arrivare tizi pagati per fare QA ed inserire la roba
pallosa :-)


 * abbiamo bisogno di board (per OSMf) più snello e funzionante,
 possibilmente affiancato da uno staff.


I sistemisti sono pagati o sono su base volontaria? Nel secondo caso
bisognerebbe incominciare da loro ad assumere...


 Che ne dite?

 Ciao,

 C


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
 Date: 2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00
 Subject: [OSM-talk] A Better Map
 To: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org,
 t...@openstreetmap.org Talk t...@openstreetmap.org


 Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time
 making maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun. It’s a neat hobby
 and we’re making the world a slightly better place.

 You need the right environment for things to be fun. Someone has to
 install the toys in the playground. Someone needs to pay for the
 slides and install the swings so that the kids can run around. Then
 someone else needs to fix them when they fail and make sure you don’t
 break your neck unexpectedly.

 In the past I’ve tried hard to make OSM a fun playground, by doing
 things like taking all the warning labels off and letting people do
 whatever they like. Things like open tagging or letting anyone edit,
 which were crazy ideas in 2004. I’ve also at times been responsible
 for it not being fun. Partly because I was a kid learning the hard way
 and partly because sometimes you need to make decisions.

 I agree that in some ways OSM isn’t a fun playground right now. But
 that doesn’t mean it can’t be again.

 We had a lot of fun with our swings and our slides. But now there are
 a lot more people to join the fun from far away places and we’re
 older. Maybe we now prefer bumper cars and video games to the old
 swings and slides.

 We should keep the swings and the slides. People new to the playground
 will still enjoy them. But we should also build a bumper car arena and
 maybe a video game arcade. Sometimes we might go back and play on the
 slide too. We need some new skills to build these new toys.

 Together, we need a mission and then a couple of course corrections to
 make it happen.

 I think addressing should be our mission. We built the worlds best
 display map already. We won. If you print out any OSM map of
 practically anywhere, it’s the best. But we can’t find anything on it
 without comprehensive and global addressing information. It’s the
 hidden data behind the map we now need to go after. All the other
 things we need to do are also good things. Diversity in all it’s
 forms, faster servers, better tools, easier documentation and more.

 A clear mission provides a framework and guidance for achieving those
 things. “Map more stuff” got us very, very far. But now, we should
 focus on what’s stopping us replacing proprietary maps. And that is
 addressing.

 How would we go achieve that?

 There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the
 board bandwidth.

 The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard
 to achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for
 five minutes in a conversation on some issue, you use over half an
 hour. In an hour-long meeting that means you can barely discuss two
 things. Ignoring all the other issues, just the pure mechanics shows
 you how hard it is to talk through something let alone achieve a
 consensus. The board needs to be 3 people. 5 at maximum.

 Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most
 people aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they
 need to please everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend
 meetings because they have a day job and other life commitments. The
 board needs to meet in person regularly with a facilitator and also
 have guidance about what it means to be on a board. We can’t expect
 volunteers to naturally figure all this stuff out by themselves and
 then also devote the time to also achieve goals.

 The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid
 staff can do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are
 things that volunteers don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t
 happen at all, but are still very important for a functioning
 organization. Having paid staff isn’t about deprecating volunteer
 involvement, it’s about plugging the gaps. It’s not a perfect solution
 but the alternative is to rely on companies to do many of these
 things, and that really isn’t perfect either.

 In terms of the mechanics,

 1. Change the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The
 world’s best

Re: [Talk-it] Oneway vs access=no