subject:"Re\: proposal\: drop optical media from release criteria"

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost  wrote:
>
> Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another 
> blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be 
> tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe 
> I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, 
> what would prevent the success of an installation?

We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to
USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot
anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
- pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.

But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to
be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing. But if
we're gonna do that I think it should be netinstall. That has rescue
capability live does not, and it's smaller so it fits the CD and DVD
use case broadly, unlike live which is DVD only due to size. Since all
the netinstalls are in effect based on boot.iso and are all pretty
much identical (branding and default partitioning are differentiated),
as long as boot.iso can successfully boot by optical drive, all the
editions can have a rescue+installer that'll boot them.

-- 
Chris Murphy
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Felix Miata

Harold Dost composed on 2018-09-20 22:35 (UTC-0400):

> Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
> blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be
> tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final.

+1
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Harold Dost

Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be
tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe
I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD,
what would prevent the success of an installation?

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 21:54 Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko 
> wrote:
> >> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >>>
>  That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
>  breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies,
> it's
>  gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not
> recommend
>  a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> >>> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> >>> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> >>> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> >>> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> >>> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> >>> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> >>> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
> >>>
> >> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my
> TDK DVD-RW
> >> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
> >> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting
> on the top of
> >> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
> >> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife
> about the A/C in
> >> the summer).
> >>
> >> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for
> the photos of
> >> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
> > Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
> >
>
> Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your
> upper end
> estimate) I don't think they are that important.  I'll
> check them again in another 15 years.  If I have a DVD drive at that
> time.  :-)
>
> --
> Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell
> them, tell
> them, then tell them what you told them."
>
> ___
> test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Ed Greshko

On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>>>
 That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
 breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
 gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
 a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
>>> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
>>> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
>>> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
>>> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
>>> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
>>> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
>>> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
>>>
>> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
>> DVD-RW
>> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
>> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on 
>> the top of
>> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
>> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about 
>> the A/C in
>> the summer).
>>
>> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
>> photos of
>> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
> Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
>

Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your upper end
estimate) I don't think they are that important.  I'll
check them again in another 15 years.  If I have a DVD drive at that time.  :-)

-- 
Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell
them, then tell them what you told them."



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >
> >> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
> >> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
> >> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
> >> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> > All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> > term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> > years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> > surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> > with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> > while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> > into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
> >
>
> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
> DVD-RW
> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on the 
> top of
> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about the 
> A/C in
> the summer).
>
> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
> photos of
> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.

Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!


-- 
Chris Murphy
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 7:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz  wrote:


That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I
can work with it.

The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD.
You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no
problem.


Somewhere is this thread, this is what I said I do.  I burn the 
netinstall iso to CD...



  And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway,
because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're
gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well
download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what
netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster
than optical media install.


back when I would have a dozen systems with the same OS, I maintained a 
local repo.  Recently I have not.  I should probably set one up for 
C7-armhfp...


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Ed Greshko

On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>
>> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
>> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
>> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
>> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
>

FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
DVD-RW
disks that were written between 2003 and 2005. 
I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on the 
top of
a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about the 
A/C in
the summer).

All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
photos of
one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.

-- 
Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell
them, then tell them what you told them."



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:34 PM Anderson, Charles R  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
>
> Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a 
> PXE boot loader?

Neat idea. Good chance the network is faster than optical media.

-- 
Chris Murphy
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz  wrote:

>
> That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and
> burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I
> can work with it.

The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD.
You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no
problem. And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway,
because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're
gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well
download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what
netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster
than optical media install.

-- 
Chris Murphy
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:

> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.

All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.

-- 
Chris Murphy
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria


Okay,

I see. I always burn the ISOs to DVD and do bare metal installs from 
DVD; so I am testing this criteria every time I install a new drop for 
testing. Well, I have no plans to change my install procedure. I don't 
test every drop, and so far I wait to start testing until the new 
version is branched. Other than that I will certainly report it if I get 
one that will not boot from DVD. Would it be good for me to test a a 
couple of Rawhide drops just after the beginning of each cycle?


I guess, given this, I don't mind if it's no longer a blocker for Beta; 
as long as it is still expected functionality and works in the released 
version.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)


On 9/20/18 5:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.


It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup
device.  It has to work.

Or is this strictly on optical install media?


Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
criteria is this:

"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
written to optical media of an appropriate size"

Matthew is proposing that we drop that.


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 5:45 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:

Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16
Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast.
Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.

I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention
problems, but there is also the issue of loss.

USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.


I have a dozen or so each of 8GB and 16GB uSD cards for testing 
Fedora-armhfp.  They are a mess to organize.  I have tried to setup up 
index cards with 'slots' for the uSD cards that I can write in pencil 
what is current on that card.  This almost works.


Oh and the 4GB cards that only have a uboot on them...

If some has an effective way of organizing uSD cards or similar devices, 
I am interested.


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Adam Williamson

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> > > system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> > > Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
> > Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
> > 
> It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup 
> device.  It has to work.
> 
> Or is this strictly on optical install media?

Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
criteria is this:

"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
written to optical media of an appropriate size"

Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Adam Williamson

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 
> Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. 
> Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.
> 
> I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention 
> problems, but there is also the issue of loss.

USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Anderson, Charles R

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 05:13:42PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > > > > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > > > > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most 
> > > > > IDE-based
> > > > > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am 
> > > > > unable
> > > > > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > > > > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > > > > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
> > > > Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
> > > > contains a PXE boot loader?
> > > > 
> > > PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
> > > or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!
> > No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
> > forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on 
> > your DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the 
> > pxelinux.0 and vmlinuz/initrd images.
> 
> Oh yes.  DHCP option.  Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.
> 
> > 
> > > But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
> > > reasons.
> > You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
> > waiting for any media to burn.
> 
> When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.

There is also iPXE which can boot over the Internet from a CD-ROM:

http://ipxe.org/start

And this, but I'm not sure it is being updated anymore:

https://boot.fedoraproject.org/index
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 5:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.


Will.




That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.

We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at
least.


Show how much I have been paying attention.  But then I am dyslexic and 
ADHD (good excuse as any)!


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Rick Stevens

On 9/20/18 1:35 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
 There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
 USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
 the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
>>> How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
>>> those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
>> We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep
>> costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they
>> get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the
>> applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me
>> I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs
>> before Fedora will no longer support them?
> 
> So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking
> deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the
> audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers
> that don't boot from USB?
> 
> Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora
>  to enable people who care
> about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions
> for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in
> finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally
> in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using
> Fedora infrastructure.
> 
> 
>> Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used
>> DVDs for long term backups too.
> 
> This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not
> necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's
> *likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which
> you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking
> producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.

Ok, so ISO images would still be produced and could be burned to OM
for installation. There just isn't any guarantee (at release) that the
OM would actually boot and one could squawk it if it didn't and not be
poo-poo'd about it. I might be able to survive that, assuming that the
fixes for the unbootability (is that a word?) were timely.

I'm sorry for opening such a storm of messages here. I'm just a bit
sensitive to this as I'm the one that generally gets poked with the
sharp, pointy stick when the defecation hits the impeller around here.
--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-  Never eat anything larger than your head  -
--
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Richard Shaw

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:06 PM Fred Smith 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
> >I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
> >someday.
> >I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box
>
> So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from
> optical media?
>

Please read the whole thread. This has been addressed multiple times
already. No one it taking away your ability to burn an iso, it is simply
removing the TESTING as a blocker for release.

Thanks,
Richard
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.

> That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.

We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at
least.


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?


PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!

No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your 
DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 
and vmlinuz/initrd images.


Oh yes.  DHCP option.  Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.




But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
waiting for any media to burn.


When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Fred Smith

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
>I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
>someday.
>I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box

So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from
optical media?
> 
>El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw <[1]hobbes1...@gmail.com>
>escribió:
> 
>On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller
><[2]mat...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> 
>  Justification:
>  [3]http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables
>  -hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
> 
>Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install
>disk in years.
>Thanks,
>Richard
> 
>  ___
>  test mailing list -- [4]test@lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to
>  [5]test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  [6]https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
>  List Guidelines:
>  [7]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  [8]https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedorapr
>  oject.org
> 
> References
> 
>1. mailto:hobbes1...@gmail.com
>2. mailto:mat...@fedoraproject.org
>3. 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>4. mailto:test@lists.fedoraproject.org
>5. mailto:test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
>6. https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
>7. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>8. 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

> ___
> test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org


-- 
 Fred Smith -- fre...@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us -
   I can do all things through Christ 
  who strengthens me.
-- Philippians 4:13 ---
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Anderson, Charles R

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> > > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> > > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
> > Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a 
> > PXE boot loader?
> > 
> 
> PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
> or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!

No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your 
DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 
and vmlinuz/initrd images.

> But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
waiting for any media to burn.
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most 
IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am 
unable

to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
contains a PXE boot loader?




PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for years 
except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set up a 
kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.


I remember doing that.  Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10?  I did it, and am 
happy I am not anymore.


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria


On 9/20/18 1:50 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and 
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I 
can work with it.


This is only about testing, no changes to the release artifacts in any 
way.  You will still be able to do whatever you currently do.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:42:50PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> >On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> >>I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> >>system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> >>Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
> >Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
> It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a
> backup device.  It has to work.
> Or is this strictly on optical install media?

The release criteria I am proposing dropping is whether anaconda boots from
optical install media.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 4:45 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives 
from reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times 
writing to them.


That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, 
breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, 
it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not 
recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.  What I 
would recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one 
of which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.



We are drifting here.  I like DVD for backup because there are good 
physical storage options for DVD that is lacking for USB.  Plus they are 
cheaper for each backup.  But it is drifting and it has been pointed out 
that this is NOT about dropping operational use of optical media.  WAY 
too early in storage evolution to discuss that!


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria


On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
contains a PXE boot loader?




PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for years 
except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set up a 
kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Felix Miata

Matthew Miller composed on 2018-09-20 14:16 (UTC-0400):

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:

>> Justification: 
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/

> More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
> booting from USB media.

FWIW, context, and acknowledging release criteria is not same thing as purging
functionality:

1-a non-zero number of PCs remaining in service here cannot boot from USB
(actual quantity impractical to ascertain among the large total number)

2-all (probably) PCs in service here have working OM drives (some have floppy
drives, among which one booted from less than a month ago)

3-OM are cheap and easy to buy in required capacities; USB are expensive both in
purchase cost and space waste

4-OM have plenty room to write a legible content catalog, USB the opposite

5-OM are physically easy to library, USB the opposite (disparate shapes and
sizes, with no purpose-made storage containers)

6-I bought two 5.25" DVD writers since the first of this month

7-I have yet to install any OS from USB media

Newer does not equate to better. IOW, USB media is a considerable PITA compared
to OM.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 4:41 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still 
rip

CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just 
yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
not booting will not block the release.


So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.


Fedora is not currently released on optical media.  There will be 
still be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media.  
And if you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely 
get fixed quickly.


That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and 
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I 
can work with it.


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Rick Stevens  wrote:
> On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
>> CDs and DVDs ;-)
>
> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
>

These systems need an isohybrid image written to a USB stick, correct?
Or you mean literally booting off physical optical media?

There's no plan to drop isohybrid for creating the images.


-- 
Chris Murphy
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?



PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On 9/20/18 4:30 PM, Alessio Ciregia wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller 
mailto:mat...@fedoraproject.org>> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.

Indeed.
Again. The proposal is just to remove
the test as a blocking release criteria.

+1 to the proposal

At least I can boot my system from USB to try this.  Well I see that as 
a boot option.  I never really tested it...

I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria


On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from 
reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to 
them.


That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, 
breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's 
gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend 
a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.  What I would 
recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one of 
which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.

It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup 
device.  It has to work.


Or is this strictly on optical install media?

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria


On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
not booting will not block the release.


So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.


Fedora is not currently released on optical media.  There will be still 
be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media.  And if 
you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely get fixed 
quickly.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 4:23 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are 
users of

those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?




We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep 
costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get 
used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications 
we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy 
newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no 
longer support them?


My notebook is a Lenovo x120e.   I have been getting these for years off 
ebay, but it looks like I will upgrade soon to an old 141...




Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used 
DVDs for long term backups too.


The daily Daf from dafhachaim.org is 100-200MB.  The full cycle is ~7.5 
years, with 1.5 years left.  Any almost full box of DVDs.  I also have 
them on a 4TB HD...




Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good 
enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. 
ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.


I have never used one for long term backup.




    Have a Great Day!

    Pat (tablepc)
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Michael Cronenworth


On 9/20/18 3:23 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. 
They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or 
more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it 
sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose 
for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?


Use PXE. I bet your systems support it. Setup Cobbler and never touch physical media 
again.




Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long 
term backups too.


Yikes. I would suggest you invest in other options.



Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good enough 
characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. ESD is a 
particularly important issue in that regard.


I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from reputable 
brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to them.


It's time to move on. Technology eventually advances. You have options. There is no 
doomsday scenario here. :)


___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> >>There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> >>USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> >>the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
> >How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
> >those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
> We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep
> costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they
> get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the
> applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me
> I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs
> before Fedora will no longer support them?

So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking
deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the
audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers
that don't boot from USB?

Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora
 to enable people who care
about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions
for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in
finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally
in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using
Fedora infrastructure.

> Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used
> DVDs for long term backups too.

This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not
necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's
*likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which
you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking
producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Anderson, Charles R

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Alessio Ciregia

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> > system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> > Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
>
> Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
>

Indeed.
Again. The proposal is just to remove
the test as a blocking release criteria.

> +1 to the proposal

Ciao,
A.
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Rick Stevens

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
>> On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>>> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
>>> CDs and DVDs ;-)
>>
>> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
>> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
>> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
> 
> This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
> suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
> not booting will not block the release.

So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.

> What system doesn't boot off USB now?  What do you mean by DVD emulation
> over USB?  That still sounds like not physical optical media.

I manage several data centers with some hundreds of servers. Granted,
the vast majority of them run CentOS, but some do run Fedora. And, as
Fedora goes, eventually so goes CentOS.

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Now, perhaps if I say, "I can't install newer software on them because
they can't boot that media," perhaps they'd relax the purse strings. Not
bloody likely, but perhaps. Changes such as this to the infrastructure
can have repercussions to people like myself that may not be apparent to
those not in my position. Optical media is still necessary for me at
this time.

I'm just putting in my $.02, that's all.
--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-  What's small, yellow and very, VERY dangerous?  The root canary!  -
--
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria



On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?




We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep 
costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get 
used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications 
we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy 
newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no 
longer support them?


Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs 
for long term backups too.


Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good 
enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. 
ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria




On 9/20/18 1:49 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/



I installed F28 with a netinstall CD.

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce 
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system. 
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.


Though it worked with F29-beta, so maybe I should go back and test on F28.

So optical media is important to me.  And it seems it was not tested too 
well for F28


thanks
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:01:40PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> >More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> >targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served
> >by booting from USB media.
> I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the
> install media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much
> cheaper than thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when
> there is no need to.

That's a valid use case, but 4GB USB drives are about $3 in quantities of
10. The cost in time and effort -- and potential release delay -- of testing
this seems higher than that to me. Since this is important to you, are you
able to help with this test case every release cycle?


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria


On 9/20/18 1:01 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install 
media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than 
thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need 
to.


There is nothing stopping you from making physical DVDs from the install 
images that will still be created as ISO files.  And you are still 
welcome to file bugs if they don't work.  The request is just to remove 
the blocking requirement to test them.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16
Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast.
Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.

I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention
problems, but there is also the issue of loss.

Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)

On 9/20/18 3:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
wrote:

Justification:
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/

+1 to dropping the optical media
criterion--

- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
- Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle. -
--
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
> > CDs and DVDs ;-)
> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.

How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria



On 9/20/18 2:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
booting from USB media.



I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install 
media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than 
thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need to.


Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria


On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a 
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media 
not booting will not block the release.


What system doesn't boot off USB now?  What do you mean by DVD emulation 
over USB?  That still sounds like not physical optical media.

___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Rick Stevens

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
> CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  
> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
>>  wrote:
>>> Justification: 
>>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>>
>>
>> +1 to dropping the optical media 
>> criterion--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-   Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle.  -
--
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
>  wrote:
>> Justification: 
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>
>
> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Murphy
> ___
> test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

-- 
Mastering DFS Analytics https://leanpub.com/masteringdfsanalytics

Markovs of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:
> Justification: 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


+1 to dropping the optical media criterion



-- 
Chris Murphy
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Julen Landa Alustiza

I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
someday.

I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box

El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw  escribió:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Justification:
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>
>
> Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk
> in years.
>
> Thanks,
> Richard
> ___
> test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Richard Shaw

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> Justification:
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk
in years.

Thanks,
Richard
___
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to test-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria