Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2019-07-08 Thread Matthew Miller
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:02:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Yes. In the midst of a home move, so I'll try to get to this ... soonish. If
> > I don't, and you remember before I do, pleaes remind me :)
> Ahoy Matt, this is your reminder :)

After I get through all these flock talks! :)

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2019-07-08 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sun, 2018-11-18 at 11:15 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 03:20:10PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 14:16 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > > Justification: 
> > > > http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
> > > 
> > > More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> > > targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served 
> > > by
> > > booting from USB media.
> > 
> > So we had a long and interesting discussion of this, then...kinda lost
> > it in the f29 release rush (and because I suck). Matt, do you want to
> > take a look at how the discussion came out and make a revised (or, if
> > you think it best, just...restated) proposal that we can move forward
> > with? Thanks!
> 
> Yes. In the midst of a home move, so I'll try to get to this ... soonish. If
> I don't, and you remember before I do, pleaes remind me :)

Ahoy Matt, this is your reminder :)
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Adam Williamson
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-11-18 Thread Matthew Miller
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 03:20:10PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 14:16 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > Justification: 
> > > http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
> > 
> > More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> > targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
> > booting from USB media.
> 
> So we had a long and interesting discussion of this, then...kinda lost
> it in the f29 release rush (and because I suck). Matt, do you want to
> take a look at how the discussion came out and make a revised (or, if
> you think it best, just...restated) proposal that we can move forward
> with? Thanks!

Yes. In the midst of a home move, so I'll try to get to this ... soonish. If
I don't, and you remember before I do, pleaes remind me :)

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-11-16 Thread Adam Williamson
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 14:16 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Justification: 
> > http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
> 
> More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
> booting from USB media.

So we had a long and interesting discussion of this, then...kinda lost
it in the f29 release rush (and because I suck). Matt, do you want to
take a look at how the discussion came out and make a revised (or, if
you think it best, just...restated) proposal that we can move forward
with? Thanks!
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-23 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/22/18 4:48 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Sat, 2018-09-22 at 11:06 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:30 AM Adam Williamson
 wrote:


Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
all (since optical media are *slow*).

If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?

I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
anything but testing this).

This kind of disproportionate shift of a criterion's burden is
inappropriate. It also sticks in my craw when bugs like this are
discovered late.

In theory if you test the released beta, and a nightly early on in
freeze, there shouldn't be a regression in the final release that'd
cause only optical boot failures.

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice...:P
I think I was the one,  or at least one of the ones that got burned by 
the F21 OM bug.  That was a pain to get F21 installed.  That was on this 
notebook, and I still get this weird message on boot up.  It does not 
seem to affect anything and better let sleeping dogs lie. Also I think 
that was the last install I did from the full DVD; I only had 768Kb DSL 
connectivity at the time.  I switched to Netinstall when I switched to 
Comcast and got 5Gb business (they have since 'upgraded' me to 25Gb at 
no cost).


That said, first week of October, I will get a 'new' notebook, and test 
out the netinstall iso on a CD.



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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-22 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sat, 2018-09-22 at 11:06 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:30 AM Adam Williamson
>  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
> > around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
> > for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
> > all (since optical media are *slow*).
> > 
> > If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
> > seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
> > 
> > I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
> > able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
> > reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
> > purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
> > I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
> > out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
> > anything but testing this).
> 
> This kind of disproportionate shift of a criterion's burden is
> inappropriate. It also sticks in my craw when bugs like this are
> discovered late.
> 
> In theory if you test the released beta, and a nightly early on in
> freeze, there shouldn't be a regression in the final release that'd
> cause only optical boot failures.

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice...:P
-- 
Adam Williamson
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-22 Thread Chris Murphy
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:30 AM Adam Williamson
 wrote:

> Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
> around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
> for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
> all (since optical media are *slow*).
>
> If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
> seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
>
> I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
> able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
> reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
> purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
> I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
> out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
> anything but testing this).

This kind of disproportionate shift of a criterion's burden is
inappropriate. It also sticks in my craw when bugs like this are
discovered late.

In theory if you test the released beta, and a nightly early on in
freeze, there shouldn't be a regression in the final release that'd
cause only optical boot failures.

I'm a +1 to entirely dropping the criterion.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread stan
On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:56:07 -0400
"pmkel...@frontier.com"  wrote:

> BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
> serve the installs?

I think you are mixing two different install methods.  There is a
netinstall image, that has a barebones Fedora that gets installed, and
allows the installation of all other software from the
Fedora repositories over the internet.  I use this because it is small,
and I just install the barebones and some essential packages like vim
and such.  I then boot into the newly installed Fedora and install what
I want from the repositories.  This used to be possible to do by
installing a small file in /boot, bfo.lkrn, and booting directly from
the image that was desired.
https://boot.fedoraproject.org/index
Unfortunately, as Charles said, it doesn't seem to work anymore.  It
was great.  Just put a stanza in grub.cfg, boot and select it, and
everything was downloaded from the internet.  No need for media at
all.  I suppose it just got to be too much trouble to maintain.  It
doesn't crash or anything, but I think the links are out of date.

menuentry 'Boot BFO' --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os {
linux16 /bfo.lkrn
}

There is also a net install using a central server for many machines.
That is what Samuel was referring to.  All the machines are installed
using a script and a standard image, pulling everything off the local
network instead of the internet.  I don't think that is what you want
if you were installing from DVD.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/21/18 3:40 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/21/18 12:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of 
servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there 
doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of 
Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and 
failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and 
kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.


Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server.  If you 
eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.


There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.


Oh, in this long email thread, I've lost track of people.  I thought 
you were the person I was discussing PXE with earlier.  As Adam 
mentioned, for a basic network install, you can use USB.  But in 
general, however you are currently installing with a DVD, you can do 
the same with a USB stick.  Just write the iso image to it.


For this list, this has really been an involved thread.

I was the one you were talkiong to about PXE earlier.  Not pmkelly.

That said, If you put the Netinstall iso image on a bootable media 
(bootable for your system), and have decent net access speed, you let 
Netinstall do its thing to get everything NOT on the iso image from the 
repos.  Nothing to maintain locally.  Just potentially a lot of 
downloads if you do a lot of build testing.


Minimally, you can build a local apache server and rsync the current 
repos to that.  Then point the Netinstall there.


Of course you need IP access in both cases which means DHCP etc.

About time to sign off for the weekend and Sunday night starts Succos, 
so not much from me until Wednesday.


Have a good time all.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Matthew Miller
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:35:17PM -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> >BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup
> >to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge
> >of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and
> >there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy
> >of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files
> >and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing
> >and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public
> >directory.
> Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server.  If you
> eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to
> help.

Doing a PXE install means that. But doing a network install booting from a
USB stick (or, eh, a CD/DVD) doesn't need any local infrastructure. Just a
route to Fedora mirrors.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/21/18 12:39 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/21/18 3:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of 
servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there 
doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of 
Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and 
failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept 
the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.


Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server.  If you 
eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.


There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.


You mean remote access to the repos won't work as it does for the 
production netinstall?


Not that I have too much of a problem rsyncing the updates, but I have 
always done my netinstalls from the mirrors.


Just to be clear, I was referring to setting up a PXE boot network 
install, not a standard boot off a DVD or USB drive.  The web server is 
needed to load the installer image, although possibly that could be 
loaded over tftp as well.  Also the kickstart file would be on the web 
server if you use one.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/21/18 12:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of 
servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there 
doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 
28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. 
After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the 
commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.


Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server.  If you 
eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.


There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.


Oh, in this long email thread, I've lost track of people.  I thought you 
were the person I was discussing PXE with earlier.  As Adam mentioned, 
for a basic network install, you can use USB.  But in general, however 
you are currently installing with a DVD, you can do the same with a USB 
stick.  Just write the iso image to it.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/21/18 3:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of 
servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there 
doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of 
Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and 
failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept 
the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.


Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server.  If you 
eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.


There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.


You mean remote access to the repos won't work as it does for the 
production netinstall?


Not that I have too much of a problem rsyncing the updates, but I have 
always done my netinstalls from the mirrors.



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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers 
(now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to 
be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I 
tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple 
tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff 
in one of the PCs Public directory.


Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server.  If you 
eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.


There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 14:56 -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> 
> On 9/21/18 1:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
> > > Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
> > 
> > Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
> > around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
> > for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
> > all (since optical media are *slow*).
> > 
> > If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
> > seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
> > 
> > I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
> > able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
> > reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
> > purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
> > I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
> > out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
> > anything but testing this).
> > 
> > If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be
> > more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people
> > speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped
> > in and run the test before.
> > 
> 
> Well, I know I'm an exception, I only test workstation live, I don't 
> test every drop, and I know that no one is requiring me to, but I 
> actually spend money on DVD media to help out with testing. Yes, I know 
> that someday DVDs will go away and I'll have to figure out this network 
> install thing, but for right now I use them because it's what I'm 
> comfortable doing.

Thanks for that.

> BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
> serve the installs?

I am not sure what you mean by 'network install' exactly. If you mean
PXE stuff, you don't need to know that to replace DVDs. You can just
replace DVDs with a USB stick.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:24:56PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> Ok, so ISO images would still be produced and could be burned to OM
> for installation. There just isn't any guarantee (at release) that the
> OM would actually boot and one could squawk it if it didn't and not be
> poo-poo'd about it. I might be able to survive that, assuming that the
> fixes for the unbootability (is that a word?) were timely.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

> I'm sorry for opening such a storm of messages here. I'm just a bit
> sensitive to this as I'm the one that generally gets poked with the
> sharp, pointy stick when the defecation hits the impeller around here.

Heh, thanks. I can relate :)

-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Matthew Miller
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 02:23:24PM +0200, Kamil Paral wrote:
> Speaking for I believe most of the QA team: "We'd be happy to". Testing
> optical boot is a major PITA. The decision is not ours, though, but I
> assume it belongs to the groups owning the media currently blocking optical
> boot. Which is Spins SIG for Everything netinst and Workstation WG for
> Workstation Live [1] (to be clear, nothing else is currently covered by
> that criterion, just those two images).
> 
> One more thing, Matthew, are you proposing we drop this for F30, or
> immediately for F29?

Immediately for F29, because realistically if it comes down to this as the
only issue, I will advocate very passionately for releasing anyway. 


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread pmkel...@frontier.com



On 9/21/18 1:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:

Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?


Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
all (since optical media are *slow*).

If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?

I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
anything but testing this).

If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be
more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people
speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped
in and run the test before.



Well, I know I'm an exception, I only test workstation live, I don't 
test every drop, and I know that no one is requiring me to, but I 
actually spend money on DVD media to help out with testing. Yes, I know 
that someday DVDs will go away and I'll have to figure out this network 
install thing, but for right now I use them because it's what I'm 
comfortable doing.


BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to 
serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers 
(now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to 
be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I 
tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple 
tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff 
in one of the PCs Public directory.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 13:52 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:30 PM Adam Williamson
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
> > > Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
> > 
> > Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
> > around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
> > for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
> > all (since optical media are *slow*).
> > 
> > If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
> > seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
> > 
> > I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
> > able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
> > reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
> > purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
> > I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
> > out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
> > anything but testing this).
> > 
> > If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be
> > more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people
> > speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped
> > in and run the test before.
> > --
> > Adam Williamson
> > Fedora QA Community Monkey
> > IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
> > http://www.happyassassin.net
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> 
> I want to make sure that I'm on the same page.
> 
> Based on:
> > Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
> > the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
> > criteria is this:
> > "Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
> > written to optical media of an appropriate size"
> > Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
> 
> Would it be calculable based on the ISO size whether it would author
> correctly (only in terms of size) with out needing to burn it to a
> real disk? Then burning to a disk would not be necessary, but prevents
> the image from becoming overly bloated.

No. See the other subthread where a couple of bugs from the Fedora 21
era showed that it's possible for ISO files to boot fine from USB, or
when attached to a VM, but not boot when written to an actual optical
disc.

We already have a size check test which is automated, but just ensuring
the ISO file is not larger than a physical CD or DVD is not sufficient
to be sure it actually boots.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Harold Dost
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:30 PM Adam Williamson
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
> > Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
>
> Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
> around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
> for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
> all (since optical media are *slow*).
>
> If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
> seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
>
> I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
> able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
> reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
> purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
> I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
> out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
> anything but testing this).
>
> If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be
> more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people
> speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped
> in and run the test before.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
> http://www.happyassassin.net
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I want to make sure that I'm on the same page.

Based on:
>Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
> the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
> criteria is this:

> "Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
> written to optical media of an appropriate size"
> Matthew is proposing that we drop that.

Would it be calculable based on the ISO size whether it would author
correctly (only in terms of size) with out needing to burn it to a
real disk? Then burning to a disk would not be necessary, but prevents
the image from becoming overly bloated.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/21/18 1:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:

Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?

Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
all (since optical media are *slow*).

If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?

I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
anything but testing this).

If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be
more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people
speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped
in and run the test before.
My challenge is a physical system to test on.  I can do armv7 testing; I 
have 3 Cubies here on my desk for various tests, and it is easy to swap 
out media.


But x86_64 testing?  I only have my 2 Lenovo x120e systems.  I am going 
to have to test k3b writing again and if the bug is not fixed (it is in 
F29), implement Ed's workaround already as that is the only thing I need 
my old F24 system for.  And it is OK for testing as the fan is dying.


I have to hit ebay up for a Lenovo x141.  So perhaps mid-next month I 
can do some netinstall testing from OM.


Oh, yesterday I found out that my Juniper firewall uses some old TLS 
crypto that FF on F28 does not like.  So I either have to upgrade its 
firmware, turn off TLS, or disable this FF check.  ARGH!  Shows how long 
it has been since I have had to log in and check something on it. That 
SSG5 just runs.




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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Adam Williamson
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
> Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?

Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media
around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media
for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them
all (since optical media are *slow*).

If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever
seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?

I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being
able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly
reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the
purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact
I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go
out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for
anything but testing this).

If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be
more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people
speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped
in and run the test before.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Harold Dost
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:33 AM Kamil Paral  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:17 AM Chris Murphy  wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost  wrote:
>> >
>> > Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another 
>> > blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be 
>> > tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe 
>> > I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, 
>> > what would prevent the success of an installation?
>>
>> We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to
>> USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot
>> anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
>> - pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.
>>
>> But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to
>> be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing.
>
>
> There is one difference. Those criteria that we block on yet don't test (at 
> all or in full extent) in the QA team are usually those that are too 
> impractical to test centrally. Ensuring that all important printer drivers 
> work falls into that category, similarly to ensuring all important graphics 
> cards work, etc. There's no way without community involvement we could ever 
> cover everything important.
>
> Optical booting is a different story, that can be tested, and quite easily 
> (making sure it works on one system usually means it works everywhere - 
> although there have been exceptions to the rule in the past), it just takes 
> annoyingly long. And unlike broken printers or to a certain extent broken 
> graphical drivers, we can't fix this with an update, we'd have to create a 
> new compose (and make another full round of testing), which we never do. So 
> although I'd love to get rid of optical media testing, if we keep it in the 
> criteria, I'm not comfortable with ignoring it inside the QA team and I 
> believe the test coverage for it would still need to be considered mandatory 
> in that case.
>
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+1
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Kamil Paral
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:17 AM Chris Murphy 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost  wrote:
> >
> > Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
> blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be
> tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe
> I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD,
> what would prevent the success of an installation?
>
> We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to
> USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot
> anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
> - pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.
>
> But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to
> be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing.


There is one difference. Those criteria that we block on yet don't test (at
all or in full extent) in the QA team are usually those that are too
impractical to test centrally. Ensuring that all important printer drivers
work falls into that category, similarly to ensuring all important graphics
cards work, etc. There's no way without community involvement we could ever
cover everything important.

Optical booting is a different story, that can be tested, and quite easily
(making sure it works on one system usually means it works everywhere -
although there have been exceptions to the rule in the past), it just takes
annoyingly long. And unlike broken printers or to a certain extent broken
graphical drivers, we can't fix this with an update, we'd have to create a
new compose (and make another full round of testing), which we never do. So
although I'd love to get rid of optical media testing, if we keep it in the
criteria, I'm not comfortable with ignoring it inside the QA team and I
believe the test coverage for it would still need to be considered
mandatory in that case.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-21 Thread Kamil Paral
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:17 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Justification:
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>
> More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served
> by
> booting from USB media.
>

Speaking for I believe most of the QA team: "We'd be happy to". Testing
optical boot is a major PITA. The decision is not ours, though, but I
assume it belongs to the groups owning the media currently blocking optical
boot. Which is Spins SIG for Everything netinst and Workstation WG for
Workstation Live [1] (to be clear, nothing else is currently covered by
that criterion, just those two images).

One more thing, Matthew, are you proposing we drop this for F30, or
immediately for F29?

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/29/ReleaseBlocking
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Chris Murphy
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost  wrote:
>
> Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another 
> blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be 
> tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe 
> I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, 
> what would prevent the success of an installation?

We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to
USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot
anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
- pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.

But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to
be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing. But if
we're gonna do that I think it should be netinstall. That has rescue
capability live does not, and it's smaller so it fits the CD and DVD
use case broadly, unlike live which is DVD only due to size. Since all
the netinstalls are in effect based on boot.iso and are all pretty
much identical (branding and default partitioning are differentiated),
as long as boot.iso can successfully boot by optical drive, all the
editions can have a rescue+installer that'll boot them.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Felix Miata
Harold Dost composed on 2018-09-20 22:35 (UTC-0400):

> Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
> blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be
> tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final.

+1
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Harold Dost
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be
tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe
I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD,
what would prevent the success of an installation?

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 21:54 Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko 
> wrote:
> >> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >>>
>  That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
>  breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies,
> it's
>  gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not
> recommend
>  a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> >>> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> >>> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> >>> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> >>> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> >>> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> >>> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> >>> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
> >>>
> >> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my
> TDK DVD-RW
> >> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
> >> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting
> on the top of
> >> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
> >> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife
> about the A/C in
> >> the summer).
> >>
> >> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for
> the photos of
> >> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
> > Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
> >
>
> Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your
> upper end
> estimate) I don't think they are that important.  I'll
> check them again in another 15 years.  If I have a DVD drive at that
> time.  :-)
>
> --
> Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell
> them, tell
> them, then tell them what you told them."
>
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Ed Greshko
On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>>>
 That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
 breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
 gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
 a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
>>> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
>>> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
>>> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
>>> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
>>> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
>>> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
>>> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
>>>
>> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
>> DVD-RW
>> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
>> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on 
>> the top of
>> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
>> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about 
>> the A/C in
>> the summer).
>>
>> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
>> photos of
>> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
> Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
>

Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your upper end
estimate) I don't think they are that important.  I'll
check them again in another 15 years.  If I have a DVD drive at that time.  :-)

-- 
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them, then tell them what you told them."



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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Chris Murphy
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >
> >> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
> >> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
> >> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
> >> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> > All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> > term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> > years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> > surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> > with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> > while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> > into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
> >
>
> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
> DVD-RW
> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on the 
> top of
> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about the 
> A/C in
> the summer).
>
> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
> photos of
> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.

Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!


-- 
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 7:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz  wrote:


That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I
can work with it.

The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD.
You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no
problem.


Somewhere is this thread, this is what I said I do.  I burn the 
netinstall iso to CD...



  And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway,
because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're
gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well
download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what
netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster
than optical media install.


back when I would have a dozen systems with the same OS, I maintained a 
local repo.  Recently I have not.  I should probably set one up for 
C7-armhfp...


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Ed Greshko
On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>
>> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
>> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
>> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
>> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
>

FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
DVD-RW
disks that were written between 2003 and 2005. 
I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on the 
top of
a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about the 
A/C in
the summer).

All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
photos of
one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.

-- 
Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell
them, then tell them what you told them."



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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Chris Murphy
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:34 PM Anderson, Charles R  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
>
> Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a 
> PXE boot loader?

Neat idea. Good chance the network is faster than optical media.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Chris Murphy
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz  wrote:

>
> That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and
> burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I
> can work with it.

The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD.
You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no
problem. And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway,
because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're
gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well
download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what
netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster
than optical media install.

-- 
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Chris Murphy
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:

> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.

All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.



-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread pmkel...@frontier.com

Okay,

I see. I always burn the ISOs to DVD and do bare metal installs from 
DVD; so I am testing this criteria every time I install a new drop for 
testing. Well, I have no plans to change my install procedure. I don't 
test every drop, and so far I wait to start testing until the new 
version is branched. Other than that I will certainly report it if I get 
one that will not boot from DVD. Would it be good for me to test a a 
couple of Rawhide drops just after the beginning of each cycle?


I guess, given this, I don't mind if it's no longer a blocker for Beta; 
as long as it is still expected functionality and works in the released 
version.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)


On 9/20/18 5:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.


It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup
device.  It has to work.

Or is this strictly on optical install media?


Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
criteria is this:

"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
written to optical media of an appropriate size"

Matthew is proposing that we drop that.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 5:45 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:

Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16
Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast.
Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.

I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention
problems, but there is also the issue of loss.

USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.


I have a dozen or so each of 8GB and 16GB uSD cards for testing 
Fedora-armhfp.  They are a mess to organize.  I have tried to setup up 
index cards with 'slots' for the uSD cards that I can write in pencil 
what is current on that card.  This almost works.


Oh and the 4GB cards that only have a uboot on them...

If some has an effective way of organizing uSD cards or similar devices, 
I am interested.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Adam Williamson
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> > > system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> > > Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
> > Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
> > 
> It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup 
> device.  It has to work.
> 
> Or is this strictly on optical install media?

Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
criteria is this:

"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
written to optical media of an appropriate size"

Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
-- 
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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Adam Williamson
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 
> Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. 
> Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.
> 
> I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention 
> problems, but there is also the issue of loss.

USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Anderson, Charles R
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 05:13:42PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > > > > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > > > > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most 
> > > > > IDE-based
> > > > > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am 
> > > > > unable
> > > > > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > > > > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > > > > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
> > > > Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
> > > > contains a PXE boot loader?
> > > > 
> > > PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
> > > or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!
> > No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
> > forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on 
> > your DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the 
> > pxelinux.0 and vmlinuz/initrd images.
> 
> Oh yes.  DHCP option.  Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.
> 
> > 
> > > But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
> > > reasons.
> > You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
> > waiting for any media to burn.
> 
> When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.

There is also iPXE which can boot over the Internet from a CD-ROM:

http://ipxe.org/start

And this, but I'm not sure it is being updated anymore:

https://boot.fedoraproject.org/index
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 5:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.


Will.




That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.

We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at
least.


Show how much I have been paying attention.  But then I am dyslexic and 
ADHD (good excuse as any)!


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Rick Stevens
On 9/20/18 1:35 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
 There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
 USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
 the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
>>> How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
>>> those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
>> We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep
>> costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they
>> get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the
>> applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me
>> I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs
>> before Fedora will no longer support them?
> 
> So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking
> deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the
> audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers
> that don't boot from USB?
> 
> Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora
>  to enable people who care
> about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions
> for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in
> finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally
> in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using
> Fedora infrastructure.
> 
> 
>> Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used
>> DVDs for long term backups too.
> 
> This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not
> necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's
> *likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which
> you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking
> producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.

Ok, so ISO images would still be produced and could be burned to OM
for installation. There just isn't any guarantee (at release) that the
OM would actually boot and one could squawk it if it didn't and not be
poo-poo'd about it. I might be able to survive that, assuming that the
fixes for the unbootability (is that a word?) were timely.

I'm sorry for opening such a storm of messages here. I'm just a bit
sensitive to this as I'm the one that generally gets poked with the
sharp, pointy stick when the defecation hits the impeller around here.
--
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Richard Shaw
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:06 PM Fred Smith 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
> >I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
> >someday.
> >I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box
>
> So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from
> optical media?
>

Please read the whole thread. This has been addressed multiple times
already. No one it taking away your ability to burn an iso, it is simply
removing the TESTING as a blocker for release.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.

> That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.

We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at
least.


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?


PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!

No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your 
DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 
and vmlinuz/initrd images.


Oh yes.  DHCP option.  Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.




But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
waiting for any media to burn.


When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Fred Smith
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
>I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
>someday.
>I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box

So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from
optical media?
> 
>El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw <[1]hobbes1...@gmail.com>
>escribió:
> 
>On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller
><[2]mat...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> 
>  Justification:
>  [3]http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables
>  -hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
> 
>Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install
>disk in years.
>Thanks,
>Richard
> 
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> References
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>2. mailto:mat...@fedoraproject.org
>3. 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Anderson, Charles R
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> > > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> > > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
> > Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a 
> > PXE boot loader?
> > 
> 
> PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
> or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!

No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your 
DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 
and vmlinuz/initrd images.

> But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
waiting for any media to burn.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most 
IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am 
unable

to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
contains a PXE boot loader?




PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for years 
except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set up a 
kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.


I remember doing that.  Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10?  I did it, and am 
happy I am not anymore.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/20/18 1:50 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and 
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I 
can work with it.


This is only about testing, no changes to the release artifacts in any 
way.  You will still be able to do whatever you currently do.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:42:50PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> >On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> >>I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> >>system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> >>Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
> >Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
> It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a
> backup device.  It has to work.
> Or is this strictly on optical install media?

The release criteria I am proposing dropping is whether anaconda boots from
optical install media.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 4:45 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives 
from reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times 
writing to them.


That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, 
breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, 
it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not 
recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.  What I 
would recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one 
of which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.



We are drifting here.  I like DVD for backup because there are good 
physical storage options for DVD that is lacking for USB.  Plus they are 
cheaper for each backup.  But it is drifting and it has been pointed out 
that this is NOT about dropping operational use of optical media.  WAY 
too early in storage evolution to discuss that!


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
contains a PXE boot loader?




PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for years 
except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set up a 
kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Felix Miata
Matthew Miller composed on 2018-09-20 14:16 (UTC-0400):

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:

>> Justification: 
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/

> More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
> booting from USB media.

FWIW, context, and acknowledging release criteria is not same thing as purging
functionality:

1-a non-zero number of PCs remaining in service here cannot boot from USB
(actual quantity impractical to ascertain among the large total number)

2-all (probably) PCs in service here have working OM drives (some have floppy
drives, among which one booted from less than a month ago)

3-OM are cheap and easy to buy in required capacities; USB are expensive both in
purchase cost and space waste

4-OM have plenty room to write a legible content catalog, USB the opposite

5-OM are physically easy to library, USB the opposite (disparate shapes and
sizes, with no purpose-made storage containers)

6-I bought two 5.25" DVD writers since the first of this month

7-I have yet to install any OS from USB media

Newer does not equate to better. IOW, USB media is a considerable PITA compared
to OM.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 4:41 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still 
rip

CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just 
yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
not booting will not block the release.


So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.


Fedora is not currently released on optical media.  There will be 
still be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media.  
And if you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely 
get fixed quickly.


That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and 
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I 
can work with it.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Chris Murphy
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Rick Stevens  wrote:
> On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
>> CDs and DVDs ;-)
>
> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
>

These systems need an isohybrid image written to a USB stick, correct?
Or you mean literally booting off physical optical media?

There's no plan to drop isohybrid for creating the images.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?



PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 4:30 PM, Alessio Ciregia wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller 
mailto:mat...@fedoraproject.org>> wrote:


On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.


Indeed.
Again. The proposal is just to remove
the test as a blocking release criteria.

+1 to the proposal


At least I can boot my system from USB to try this.  Well I see that as 
a boot option.  I never really tested it...


I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from 
reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to 
them.


That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, 
breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's 
gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend 
a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.  What I would 
recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one of 
which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.

It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup 
device.  It has to work.


Or is this strictly on optical install media?

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
not booting will not block the release.


So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.


Fedora is not currently released on optical media.  There will be still 
be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media.  And if 
you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely get fixed 
quickly.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 4:23 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are 
users of

those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?




We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep 
costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get 
used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications 
we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy 
newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no 
longer support them?


My notebook is a Lenovo x120e.   I have been getting these for years off 
ebay, but it looks like I will upgrade soon to an old 141...




Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used 
DVDs for long term backups too.


The daily Daf from dafhachaim.org is 100-200MB.  The full cycle is ~7.5 
years, with 1.5 years left.  Any almost full box of DVDs.  I also have 
them on a 4TB HD...




Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good 
enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. 
ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.


I have never used one for long term backup.




    Have a Great Day!

    Pat (tablepc)
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Michael Cronenworth

On 9/20/18 3:23 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. 
They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or 
more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it 
sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose 
for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?


Use PXE. I bet your systems support it. Setup Cobbler and never touch physical media 
again.




Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long 
term backups too.


Yikes. I would suggest you invest in other options.



Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good enough 
characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. ESD is a 
particularly important issue in that regard.


I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from reputable 
brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to them.


It's time to move on. Technology eventually advances. You have options. There is no 
doomsday scenario here. :)


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> >>There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> >>USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> >>the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
> >How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
> >those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
> We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep
> costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they
> get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the
> applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me
> I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs
> before Fedora will no longer support them?

So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking
deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the
audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers
that don't boot from USB?

Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora
 to enable people who care
about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions
for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in
finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally
in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using
Fedora infrastructure.


> Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used
> DVDs for long term backups too.

This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not
necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's
*likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which
you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking
producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Anderson, Charles R
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Alessio Ciregia
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> > system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> > Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
>
> Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
>

Indeed.
Again. The proposal is just to remove
the test as a blocking release criteria.

> +1 to the proposal

Ciao,
A.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Rick Stevens
On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
>> On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>>> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
>>> CDs and DVDs ;-)
>>
>> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
>> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
>> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
> 
> This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
> suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
> not booting will not block the release.

So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.

> What system doesn't boot off USB now?  What do you mean by DVD emulation
> over USB?  That still sounds like not physical optical media.

I manage several data centers with some hundreds of servers. Granted,
the vast majority of them run CentOS, but some do run Fedora. And, as
Fedora goes, eventually so goes CentOS.

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Now, perhaps if I say, "I can't install newer software on them because
they can't boot that media," perhaps they'd relax the purse strings. Not
bloody likely, but perhaps. Changes such as this to the infrastructure
can have repercussions to people like myself that may not be apparent to
those not in my position. Optical media is still necessary for me at
this time.

I'm just putting in my $.02, that's all.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread pmkel...@frontier.com


On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?




We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep 
costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get 
used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications 
we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy 
newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no 
longer support them?


Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs 
for long term backups too.


Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good 
enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. 
ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Robert Moskowitz



On 9/20/18 1:49 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/



I installed F28 with a netinstall CD.

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce 
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system. 
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.


Though it worked with F29-beta, so maybe I should go back and test on F28.

So optical media is important to me.  And it seems it was not tested too 
well for F28


thanks
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:01:40PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> >More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> >targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served
> >by booting from USB media.
> I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the
> install media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much
> cheaper than thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when
> there is no need to.

That's a valid use case, but 4GB USB drives are about $3 in quantities of
10. The cost in time and effort -- and potential release delay -- of testing
this seems higher than that to me. Since this is important to you, are you
able to help with this test case every release cycle?


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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/20/18 1:01 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install 
media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than 
thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need 
to.


There is nothing stopping you from making physical DVDs from the install 
images that will still be created as ISO files.  And you are still 
welcome to file bugs if they don't work.  The request is just to remove 
the blocking requirement to test them.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread pmkel...@frontier.com
Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 
Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. 
Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.


I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention 
problems, but there is also the issue of loss.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)


On 9/20/18 3:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/



+1 to dropping the optical media 
criterion--

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
> > CDs and DVDs ;-)
> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.

How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?


-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread pmkel...@frontier.com


On 9/20/18 2:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
booting from USB media.



I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install 
media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than 
thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need to.


Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a 
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media 
not booting will not block the release.


What system doesn't boot off USB now?  What do you mean by DVD emulation 
over USB?  That still sounds like not physical optical media.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Rick Stevens
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
> CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  
> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
>>  wrote:
>>> Justification: 
>>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>>
>>
>> +1 to dropping the optical media 
>> criterion--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
>  wrote:
>> Justification: 
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>
>
> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Chris Murphy
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:
> Justification: 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


+1 to dropping the optical media criterion



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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Julen Landa Alustiza
I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
someday.

I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box

El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw  escribió:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Justification:
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>
>
> Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk
> in years.
>
> Thanks,
> Richard
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Richard Shaw
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> Justification:
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk
in years.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

2018-09-20 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Justification: 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/

More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
booting from USB media.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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