Re: [Texascavers] Sac Actun and Dos Ojos connected

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

"Dry" cavers have considered Sac Actun and Dos Ojos to have been connected for 
a few years now. The connection was by way of a dry segment, which diving 
purists might not have counted. According to Jim Coke (QRSS), this new 
connection is an underwater one, so now everyone agrees that they're connected. 
And the connected length is 347 km! 263 km was just the Sac Actun side.

Here's another link to the new connection: 
.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Tue, 16 Jan, 2018 at 12:29 PM, gpassmore--- via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: gpassmore@mac.comApparently a system length of 263 kilometers is nw 
official based on the January 10th connection of Sac Actun and Dos Ojos.  Maybe 
this is already well known to many of you cavers, but it was news to me.  :-) 


Reference https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/underwater-cave-is-worlds-biggest/ ___
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[Texascavers] Article about Tom Iliffe.

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

There's an online article about Tom Iliffe and his career as a cave-diving 
biologist at 
.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net
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Re: [Texascavers] Resumideros del estado Guerrero

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Mixtlancingo is the name of the river that flows into the caves. The town name 
given on the SMES map is Coaxtlahuacán, Guerrero. It's a long way from there to 
Morelos. ;-)

Mark


On Sun, 31 Dec, 2017 at 12:57 PM, David via Texascavers 
<texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
 

Mark,


That is probably it.


However, the town of Mixtlancingo is in the state of Morelos.


SMES was the group that I was referring to.   SMES showed a photo of the 
borehole passage were they ran out of rope ( during a presentation at the 
Mexpeleo in Acahuzotla ).


The passage had whitewater rapids flowing into darkness below.  ( water always 
flows downstream for you young cavers - unless there is some hydrogeological 
pressure forcing it against gravity )


I had assumed that cave was in the area above the town Chilpancingo in the 
state of Guerrero.   That karst area is a promising place to retire as a caver 
- if you dont mind the bandito-politics.


On Dec 31, 2017 10:09 AM, "Mark Minton via Texascavers" 
<texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>> wrote:




David,


Did you mean Mixtlancingo? If so, you've been scooped! SMES explored those 
resumideros and published an article and maps in AMCS Activities Newsletter no. 
25 (2002).


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net<mailto:mmin...@caver.net>


On Sun, 31 Dec, 2017 at 12:32 AM, David via Texascavers 
<texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>> wrote:



the Number One cave on my bucket list is just 2 hours from there - "Resumidero 
de Mixtlacingo."  Imagine the Medina River sinking into a big hole and only one 
group of cavers has tried to rappel into it only to find another waterfall into 
a dark abyss.
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[Texascavers] Mixtlancingo

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

David,


Did you mean Mixtlancingo? If so, you've been scooped! SMES explored those 
resumideros and published an article and maps in AMCS Activities Newsletter no. 
25 (2002).


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Sun, 31 Dec, 2017 at 12:32 AM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:



the Number One cave on my bucket list is just 2 hours from there - "Resumidero 
de Mixtlacingo."  Imagine the Medina River sinking into a big hole and only one 
group of cavers has tried to rappel into it only to find another waterfall into 
a dark abyss.
 ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Just reminiscing - part 1 of 3

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Rolf Adams was a fantastic caver and all around really nice guy. I had the 
pleasure of caving with him several times, including at Cueva Cheve in 1989. 
There is a photo of Rolf, Noel Sloan and me on the cover of the NSS history 
book "Caving in America". We were supposed to represent "modern" cavers, as 
compared to the other photo on the cover showing cavers from 1940. Ironically, 
at that time none of the three of us were NSS members. Rolf was Australian and 
not a member; I had not yet joined, and Noel's membership had lapsed. (The book 
is no longer available from the NSS, but it is on eBay: 
.)



Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Sun, 24 Dec, 2017 at 5:11 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: CaveTex
Cc: dlocklea...@gmail.com
A personal story from David Locklear from December of 1989.
( a very fuzzy memory from 18 years ago)



I have ever told this whole story - at least not in detail - just in parts.


Background:   Australian caver Rolf Adams ( who would later drown in Florida 
scuba training for a caving expedition ) was hanging out in Austin 
semi-permanently caving full-time..  He had finished his math studies at a 
university in Australia and had climbed El Capitan and sone lots of caving.    
He was the most technical caver that I had ever met, and I assumed he could 
lead or climb as good as Alejandro Villagomez.   He and I had caved previously 
once over Thanksgiving in The El Cielo, mostly ridgewalking camping, swimming 
and taking in the Huastecan culture.   


[ Sidenote:   I actually sincerely believed his name was Wallaby Adams until 
reading his obituary in the NSS News two years later. ]


In November of 89, I was laid-off from a civil engineering company where I 
worked drafting on mylar with ink pens. and Leroy set roads ( new suburban 
boulevards ).   I had never been laid off.   In those days, unlike today, I was 
a total moron, and I had no earthly idea what it meant to be laid off.   In my 
case, I had an extreme stroke of luck ( for once ) in that when I arrived at 
The Texas Unemployment Office, my bosse's boss was in line right next to me.


So I left Houston and went to the UT Grotto meeting.   ( In those days, still 
being an A.S.S. caver, I referred to it as the "t.u. Grotto." )


Rolf was there with his girlfriend from Australia.  He introduced her as Dr. 
Anne Gray.    She was a cute blonde with long frizzy hair about 25 years old.   
[I think this might be her on Facebook 


https://www.facebook.com/anne.gray.144 ]


Rolf announced he was heading on a ridgewalking adventure near Tehuacan, Puebla 
in search of the highest cave entrance in the western hemisphere.


I think our remote spot is now a tourist site:



San Bernardino Lagunas
Vicente Guerrero, Puebla, Mexico


https://goo.gl/maps/Zer3ueTFVt32


Some Austin cavers found a tiny yellow beat-up Datsun pickup with camper-shell 
on the back.


Rolf was content to have me tag along, but unknown to me, his girlfriend had 
possibly been wanting a simple quite trip with just the two of them.   She did 
not know me at all, like Rolf did.  And she and I never hit it off.   In 
hindsight, I should have bailed on them, at some point before reaching Puebla.
But they had no business travelling alone like that where they were going.


Maybe to be continued


Feel free to correct me, or add to Part One, if you knew Rolf or Anne.









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Re: [Texascavers] Ammo can - Part 2

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

If you want to keep things protected and dry, the best choice is usually the 
Curtec drum  
(commonly called Darren drum). These are lightweight, waterproof, very robust, 
and can be used as camp seats as well as ferried through sumps. I carry one in 
my pack on every cave trip.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Fri, 22 Dec, 2017 at 6:18 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: CaveTex
Cc: dlocklea...@gmail.com

From David Locklear,

I shopped hard and analyzed each ammo can that I could find in stores, and the 
winner was the one shown below:


    Kobalt # 0666039


For $ 9.98 ( $ 10.80 with tax in Texas )


The other reasonable choices were the metal can, the olive-green heavy-duty 
plastic one ( sold at Northern Tool ), or the white or orange heavy-duty 
plastic ( sold in the marine section of Academy ).


I had a fancy one already, (made of aluminum ), but did not see that in stores, 
and that was not what I was looking for this time.


This one is strictly for road-trips, and will have all those small things you 
need on a road-trip, similar to a caver's pack.   In fact this ammo can is 
suitable for caving, where you need to protect something from dust and 
humidity. 


I expect this ammo can to last many years.  The plastic hinge on the lid should 
be the first thing to fail.


This ammo can will eventually get covered in Gorilla duct-tape and then some 
caving stickers. 


Cheers ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Spring Creek Cave open January 6

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

You can often buy good used wet suits from dive shops that sell off their older 
rental suits. This often happens in the fall. We used to get them that way 
regularly in Austin. Below is a message from a shop in Maine that's selling 
used suits now.


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


From: Frank Mooney [mailto:fr...@crabapplewhitewater.com] 
Subject: Used Wetsuits for Caving
Hello Grotto President or Representative
-

Our family runs a whitewater rafting company and sells used wetsuits
to cavers in our off-season. We have contacted NSS members for over
ten years and made lots of folks happy with good wetsuits at a
reasonable cost ... much better than buying new and expensive suits
just to beat up in the caves!

We have an array of wetsuit sizes from Youth Sizes to 4XL. Suits are in
solid shape - no holes, bad zippers,etc - we turn our entire stock of over
400 wetsuits over every few seasons with sales like this. Manufacturers of
our suits include Northwest River Supplies, Atlan Productions and
Henderson. We can meet individual and group orders. To determine sizing,
we ask for height and weight and we are good at working it out to get the
right size to the cavers. Prices generally range from $30-50 per piece.

If interested, please forward this message to members of your grotto.
We have sold hundreds of suits to cavers by using the NSS website.

Frank M
CrabApple Whitewater, Inc
fr...@crabapplewhitewater.com
www.crabapplewhitewater.com
413-625-2288
-

On Thu, 7 Dec, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Dessie Pierce via Texascavers 
 wrote:

To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: des...@dessiep.com
Do we need to RSVP or can we just show up? I really want to go!
---

Dessie Pierce, MA
Licensed Professional Counselor 
Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
Wellness Counseling Center of Texas
2626 South Loop West Suite 380
Houston, Texas 77054
office: 713-568-9506
fax: 713-588-2390
cell: 832-341-8880
des...@dessiep.com
dessiep.com

On 2017-11-13 2:36 pm, Bill Steele via Texascavers wrote:

Texas cavers:

DFW Grotto has had a project of thoroughly exploring and mapping Spring Creek 
Cave, north of Boerne, the past few years. We are getting close to finishing. 

Our next trip will be on Saturday, January 6. This is an invitation to join us. 
We will meet at the gate to Cave With a Name (CWAN) promptly at 9:00 a.m. that 
Saturday morning. A wetsuit is MANDATORY. One could be rented from a dive shop. 

The cave has deep water through about half of the suggested tourist route, but 
swim fins are not necessary. You can pull yourself along on the walls. A map 
will be provided showing the suggested route to the Shower Stall waterfall, a 
scenic destination. 
Good photographs and videos can be had if your gear is packed in a totally 
waterproof container. 

Camping at CWAN on Saturday night is encouraged. We will have a roaring 
campfire and Texas caver-style camaraderie.

Questions? Ask. 

Bill Steele 
cwilliamste...@gmail.com
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Re: [Texascavers] Tentative road-trip

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Those are pretty ambitious goals for a guy who hasn't done much caving lately, 
especially vertical. Even getting to either of those would take significant 
effort and time. Both are long drops. Good luck!



Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net



On Thu, 30 Nov, 2017 at 4:38 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

From David Locklear


I hope to re-attempt the road-trip that I had hoped to do over Thanksgiving.





Possible destination ideas:


Bop the entrance of La Joya de Salas.  


Bop the top pit in Cueva del Abra. ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Contact Info

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Denise,

Bill Liebman
P.O. Box 11
Cass, WV 24927
304-456-3433 home
caver2...@sunlitsurf.com


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Sun, 26 Nov, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Denise P via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: TexasCavers
Cc: pepabe...@hotmail.com

Paging Bill Liebman, or anyone who has his contact info. Please reply off list.


Thanks,
Denise ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Cuatro Cienagas question

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

You don't need to go far from Bustamante for good swimming. Just go out 
Bustamante Canyon to one of the swimming holes in the semi-developed park at 
the headwaters, or pull off at any one of many unofficial pools downstream of 
the park.


There is also a commercialized swimming hole on the road from Villaldama (just 
south of Bustamante) to Sabinas Hidalgo called, I believe, Ojo de Agua. Another 
swimming hole is in Lampazos to the north, also imaginatively called Ojo de 
Agua, but it was sort of a dump last time I was there (admittedly quite some 
time ago).

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Sat, 18 Nov, 2017 at 2:41 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: CaveTex
Cc: dlocklea...@gmail.com
Could someone who has been to Cuatro Cienagas in the past 5 years please email 
me privately
any travel tips or suggestions in that area.


dlocklea...@gmail.com


I heard swimming is no longer permitted there.  If so, what else is there to do 
?


I am just daydreaming at the moment wondering if a quickie adventure is 
feasible.


What is the best swimming hole within 100 miles of Bustamante ? ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Doug Allen

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Leslie Bell did just that a couple of hours before your post!



On Wed, 8 Nov, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Stephen Gutting via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: stephengutting2@gmail.comCan someone send an obituary for Doug, or at least 
a photo?
Thanks,

Steve
 ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Just for fun

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Wild guess: Bruce Morgan (Sleaseweasel)



Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Wed, 11 Oct, 2017 at 10:43 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: CaveTex
Cc: dlocklea...@gmail.com
Mystery Caver - October 2017 ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Cave Diving in Budapest :

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Molnár János is the longest actively thermal cave in the world, at something 
like 5 - 6 miles as best as I can determine. It's almost entirely underwater, 
as the article points out. Here in Virginia we're actively exploring Warm River 
Cave, which is a bit over 3.5 miles long at present and does not require scuba. 
Unfortunately the cave is closed for recreational caving.


These caves are real anomalies. Warm River has average air and water 
temperature of around 70 degrees in an area where caves are typically more like 
54. However the many streams in the cave vary dramatically in temperature. The 
historic Hot Stream is in the 80s, but in the new section we have discovered 
infeeders up to 100 degrees, and in some places the air temperature is up to 80 
degrees. It's actually too hot, which is rare for a cave. We gave a 
presentation on Warm River Cave at the NSS Convention in Missouri a couple of 
years back.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Mon, 14 Aug, 2017 at 3:48 AM, 'Jerry' via Southwestern Cavers of the 
National Speleological Society  wrote:
 

To: swrcav...@googlegroups.com; Texascavers@texascavers.com

What It's Like to Cave Dive in Budapest 
http://www.scubadiving.com/what-its-like-to-cave-dive-in-budapest




Jerry
jerryat...@aol.com
 ___
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Re: [Texascavers] cave tours in the news

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

It's pretty bad, IMHO. For example:

>Visitors will see thousands of stalactites, stalagmites and rare shield 
>formations throughout the gigantic cave. They were created when water rushing 
>through the cave, washed away the softer rock. Minerals in the dripping water 
>are left behind, creating the dramatic formations during a very slow process

Makes it sound like caves are formed by mechanical erosion rather than 
dissolution.

>"Stalacmite or stalagtite, average is it takes 125 years for one inch to 
>grow." Garrison said.


Nice spelling, even though he got it right in the preceding paragraph.

Interestingly, local cavers are resurveying Grand and Fountain Caves. There's a 
trip this coming weekend. Grand does have spectacular shields.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Wed, 2 Aug, 2017 at 8:50 AM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: CaveTex
Cc: dlocklea...@gmail.com
What grade would you give this reporter for the new story below ?  An "A+" 
??    Or an "F -" ??

http://wric.com/2017/08/02/its-a-completely-different-world-morgan-dean-explores-the-grand-caverns/
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Re: [Texascavers] TPWD sign

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

I also do not know the identity of the hidden caver in the orange helmet, but 
my guess would be Tom Shope. For the record, proper spellings are Bockelman and 
Thiesse. I have no idea who took the photo, but might be able to find out if I 
dig a bit.


As to Nancy's red box, that's the once-ubiquitous Koehler Wheat Lamp battery 
(lead-acid). Now we use lithium-ion Sten batteries the size of a match box. I 
don't miss those days at all! :-)

Mark


On Wed, 26 Jul, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Mary Thiesse via Texascavers wrote:
 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: wpipistrelle@yahoo.comYou're right David except I have to say I'm not sure 
who's hiding.
Mary TZ

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 12:04 PM, David via Texascavers wrote:

I would say that is Wayne Bockleman and Mary Theisse and Nancy Weaver.
The helmet in the back looks like Don Broussard But that is just a crazy guess.

On Jul 26, 2017 12:13 PM, "Diana Tomchick via Texascavers" wrote:

Mark, I recognize you in the photo, but I'm not sure who the other people are,
so please help us out.
Diana
 ___
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Re: [Texascavers] cavers in the news

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

That article claims that Meghalaya "harbours some of the longest and deepest 
cave systems in the world." Rather overstated in my opinion, since a check of 
Bob Gulden's World Long Cave list  puts the 
longest cave in India at no. 99 in the world and the second longest at no. 179. 
There are no Indian caves among the 242 in the World Deep list 
.


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Wed, 12 Jul, 2017 at 11:02 AM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: CaveTex
Cc: dlocklea...@gmail.com
Cavers in the news:


http://indianewengland.com/2017/07/italian-speleologist-set-explore-meghalayas-caves/
 ___
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Re: [Texascavers] my unsubscribe call may result in a new caver in India!

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Logan,


I have a book called "Caves of India & Nepal" by H. Daniel Gebauer, published 
around 1983. If it's still available, it might be a good place for your friend 
to get acquainted with caves in India. There have been several recent 
expeditions to various parts of India, especially Meghalaya. There was even a 
talk about that area at the International Exploration session at this years' 
NSS Convention in NM.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Tue, 11 Jul, 2017 at 12:29 AM, Logan McNatt via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: TSS Extended; Texas Cavers; Cave NM
Cc: lmcn...@austin.rr.comi want to share an unusual phone conversation I had 
today. As one of the Texas Speleological Survey Directors, I sometimes get 
unsolicited "Small Business" mailings to TSS c/o my address. Got one today from 
Dell, so I called to unsubscribe. The representative needed the exact address 
info to cancel it. Gave it to him, and of course had to spell Speleological. 
Asked him if he knew what it meant, and of course he didn't.

When I told him it was the study and exploration of caves, he said "Wow, that 
sounds interesting. I enjoy trekking in the wilderness." I asked him where he 
lives--India. He asked more questions, so I gave him several website links 
(e.g. Sotano de las Golondrinas), which he looked at while we were talking. 
Told him I'm not familiar with caves in India. I thought we could get cut off 
at any time, so reached for the closest thing at hand-- my copy of Atlas of The 
Great Caves of the World (Courbon, Chabert, Bosted, and Lindsley, 1989). We 
talked for about 20 minutes, and he said he was going to search online for 
caving groups in India. He is 24 years old, personable, and eager to learn and 
experience a new adventure. He actually gave me his email and asked me to send 
any more info I could.

So, cavers, please send any contacts, references, and suggestions regarding 
cavers and caves in India to me. I don't want to give out his email address, 
but will forward them to him. Based on our brief conversation and his attitude, 
I think he has strong potential to become a hardcore caver.

Thanks,

Logan McNatt
Austin, TX
NSS 11274 RL (FE)
 ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Underground chamber world’s fourth largest - La Muñeca Fea in Puebla, Mexico :

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

That big room, Muñeca Fea, is not a new discovery. The cave it is in is called 
Tlamanictli and t was found by a Belgian expedition back in 1999. They reported 
then that they had found a huge room, but because of limited lighting they 
didn't know how big. Laser scanning provided its true dimensions this year.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Sun, 9 Jul, 2017 at 9:57 AM, PRESTON FORSYTHE via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: pns_...@bellsouth.net

Yes, that was a great morning wake-up read about the huge rooms and systems, 
thanks to Gustavo, Sprouse and others. When I moved to TX the fall of 1972 I 
was able to join Blake and Watson and others for the exploration and survey of 
Precipicio west of Bustamante.. Another huge room, plus for awhile it made the 
20 deepest in Mexico, a little under 1,000 ft. deep.


Thanks Blake,


Preston in KY






On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:18 AM, James Jasek via Texascavers 
 wrote:



Wow!  What a fantastic find. Thanks for posting 

James Jasek

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 9, 2017, at 12:47 AM, Jerry via Texascavers 
> wrote:

Underground chamber world’s fourth largestExpedition into La Muñeca Fea 
revealed the enormous size of Puebla cave room

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/mexicolife/underground-chamber-worlds-fourth-largest/

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Re: [Texascavers] Consumer tip - smartphones

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

I have a device (not a phone) with a USB C connector and it works fine. The 
biggest advantage to USB C is that the connector can be plugged in either way 
up - no more figuring out which way to plug it in. USB C cables are indeed 
typically more expensive in stores, but can be had cheaply online, like most 
any other cable.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Thu, 6 Jul, 2017 at 9:23 AM, cathywinfrey7 via Texascavers 
 wrote:



Thanks, David. 
I was wondering how those new connectors were working in the real world.


 Original message 
From: David via Texascavers 
Date:07/05/2017 8:44 PM (GMT-06:00) 
To: CaveTex 
Cc: David 
Subject: [Texascavers] Consumer tip - smartphones 


Cavers should spend their money caving and not on frivolous things like new 
smartphones and Toyota Sequoias.   


Some of the new Android smartphones use a new type of fancy connector that 
allow you to easily insert the charge cord. Sounds great.   Right ??


It has been my experience these  "Type-C USB" cords fail faster than the older 
micro-USB.   These cords start at $ 22 ( with tax ) at Best Buy.


I would not recommend these phones to cavers who are very frugal.  Meaning the 
LG G6.  I also bet the connection inside the phone is just as cheesy, meaning 
avoid the cheap phones like ZTE and Alcatel that use this.   I suspect that 
manufacturing the oval-like shape of the connector is difficult.


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Re: [Texascavers] semi-final Road-Trip report

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

David,


Give your old car to NPR via the Vehicle Donation Program. They'll take 
anything, even cars that don't run, and get something for it. If you abandon 
the car in Mexico you'll end up on their shit list and be banned from bringing 
in a vehicle in the future.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Tue, 27 Jun, 2017 at 1:01 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

I must get rid of my Camry as soon as I have other transportation..   Does 
anybody want to buy a beat-up abused Camry ?   I plan to abandon it in Mexico 
in front of my niece's house in about 2 weeks and take the bus home.


David Locklear
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Re: [Texascavers] Some photos

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Totally not true! You just have to be crafty. ;-)


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Mon, 19 Jun, 2017 at 11:54 PM, Scott Boyd via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: scottd...@gmail.com
No caver has ever been able to get that close to Bill's backpack...



On Jun 19, 2017 9:47 PM, "Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers" 
> wrote:


Thanks David!  Keep the pics coming.


No selfie with the Steele clan?  make sure you slip a rock into Bill's 
backpack...



Scott D. Boyd
GPS Technician - TX, LA, AR, OK & MS
Professional Transportation, Inc. ___
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Re: [Texascavers] electronic communication in caves

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

We've been using a version of that single-wire, earth-return cave telephone 
(Michie Phone) in Cheve and J2 for many years. They're great! At J2 in 2013 we 
had a line all the way from the bottom of the cave (-1200 m) to our base camp 
on top of the mountain a kilometer from the entrance. Communication was crisp 
and clear. This year we'll be using it at Cheve to talk from surface base camp 
to divers camped beyond Sump 1 at -1400 m. It greatly simplifies logistics to 
know in real time what's happening and what supplies are needed.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net





On Sat, 28 Jan, 2017 at 8:00 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com


The article below is 3-1/2 years old, but I do not recall seeing it.

http://www.linetop.co.uk/creg/creg_j082.pdf
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Re: [Texascavers] caving in the news

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

It seems this guy doesn't know much about modern batteries and LED lights. He's 
apparently still using carbide because he says rechargeable batteries only last 
5-6 hours and then you have to carry the dead weight of spent batteries. But 
with good, rechargeable 18650 lithium-ion batteries modern LED lamps can go 24 
hours or more on way less weight than carbide and give far more light. I'd be 
surprised if Flittermouse Grotto is that far behind the times...



Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net


On Mon, 23 Jan, 2017 at 5:55 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com

http://www.lincolntimesnews.com/2017/01/23/vale-resident-details-adventures-caving/


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[Texascavers] Bat Speak

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

The scientific journal "Nature" has an interesting article about a new in-depth 
study of bats' genes being started to learn about their complex vocalizations. 
You can read it at 
.


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net




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Re: [Texascavers] The Texas Caver

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  We actually did that back in the ‘90s. Every grotto had a
correspondent that wrote summaries of trip reports given at their meetings and
then sent them to the Texas Caver editor. Each TC issue had a section on Grotto
Reports or some such, with a paragraph or two from each grotto that sent in
something. I did it for UTG for a while. Seemed like a good idea to me, but I
don’t think it lasted very long. Not sure why – I guess many correspondents got
lazy, moved away, etc. Shouldn’t be hard to reinstate if interest is high
enough, and it would be easier now with email.
Mark Minton

mmin...@caver.net 

On Fri, 28 Oct, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Charles Loving via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

To: Cavers Texas

Another stupid idea of mine. I don't have a clue as to how many grottos there 
are or caver clubs. Each one should elect a scribe and send the e-mail reports 
to a central place. Editor in chief. You can send photos too. This is a picture 
of Crash Kennedy being eaten by Godzilla at Dimbulb Cave in  Lower Slobovia.


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Re: [Texascavers] Laptop question for cave mapping

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  The few people I've seen actually using a computer in-cave for mapping
have used something smaller than a laptop, like a PDA (Palm Pilot, etc.)
or even an old Android cell phone. I wonder how an actual laptop would
hold up.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, October 27, 2016 1:24 pm, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers wrote:
> I'm preparing to purchase a new Windows laptop that will be used for
> cave mapping, along with other tasks.
>
> Is there any particular reason why I might want to get a laptop with a
> touch screen? It appears to me that it only adds extra weight to the
> laptop without adding great functionality (I personally love to use a
> computer mouse, and would use an externally attached drawing tablet for
> drawing).
>
> Comments or suggestions are welcome,
>
> Diana

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Re: [Texascavers] The Texas Caver

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Here in the East at least one publication, The Potomac Caver, (from the
non-NSS- affiliated Potomac Speleological Club) does exactly what Bill
Mixon suggested. The editor gathers articles and trip reports that are
posted on various email lists and elsewhere, and reprints them. I think
very little of the content is written specifically for the newsletter.
There are also usually a few photos included because either the trip
reports contained them or gave web links to online galleries. Everything
is in black and white. This does indeed provide a good, if not complete,
archive of reports, especially covering Germany Valley (Hellhole,
Memorial Day Cave) where a lot of PSC members are active.

  I don't know how much time the editor spends on the bimonthly
newsletter, but she spends almost no time trying to drum up articles. I
see no reason why this couldn't be done for the Texas Caver, at least
until it gets back on its feet.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, October 26, 2016 4:02 pm, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:
>
> Quite aside from problems with the timeliness and quality of the Texas
> Caver, I am concerned about its very nature. It seems to be intended,
> these days, to be a picture magazine, not a record of Texas caving. I
> guess I'm old-fashioned, but I don't think that posting something worth
> recording about Texas caving to Facebook or the Texas Cavers e-mail list
> fulfills our obligation to history. The Texas Caver ought to strive to be
> a permanent record of what's gone on. I'd love to see all those on-line
> reports about Colorado Bend, Government Canyon, and similar project
> weekends or TCMA work days printed in the Caver. I don't care if they are
> in 9-point type at the back with no illustrations at all. They will at
> least be in the NSS, TSS, etc. libraries on paper (and perhaps on the web,
> too) in fifty years. Can the same thing be guaranteed by the archive of
> the Texas Caver list or some grotto's Facebook page?

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Re: [Texascavers] cavers in the news

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I visited Eagle Cave in July this year. Who knew there were caves in the
Adirondacks?! There is no limestone in sight, but a few caves similar to
Enchanted Rock do exist.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, September 28, 2016 3:40 am, David via Texascavers wrote:
> a news story from the Adirondacks
>
> On Sept. 21 at 12:23 p.m.
>
> DEC Ray Brook Dispatch received a call from a man reporting that his
> caving partner sustained a head injury while caving in Eagle Cave on
> Chimney Mountain.

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[Texascavers] Fwd: NSS Cave Vandalism Deterrence Reward Commission

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Possibly useful information on cave vandalism.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

 Original Message 
Subject: NSS Cave Vandalism Deterrence Reward Commission
From:Sarah Richards
Date:Fri, September 16, 2016 7:55 pm
--

Hello, fellow cavers,

In case you're not already aware, the NSS offers a reward for information
that leads to the legal conviction of cave vandals anywhere in the United
States. The NSS will consider a reward of up to $1000 cash for *information
leading to a local, state, or federal conviction* of any person or persons
*for acts of cave vandalism*.

The Cave Vandalism Deterrence Reward Commission oversees this reward. I
have recently been appointed as the new Chairman of the Commission, and I
have five other NSS members on my committee representing different regions
of the U.S.

Today, I'm writing to make sure that you know that this reward exists and
tell you what you need to know about it!

Please:

1. If you see vandals in the act of vandalizing a cave or otherwise
are able to track down the identities of cave vandals, report it to the
appropriate local authorities. You may need to cite your local cave
protection laws, so here's a link to cave protection laws for all the
states that have them: https://caves.org/committee/conservation/pdf/
StateCaveProtectionLaws.pdf

2. If you see something, say something.

3. If your assistance leads to a conviction, we want to hear about it:

o *E-mail* - Please contact us at vandalismdeterre...@caves.org (also on
the CC line of this message)

o *Web page* - https://caves.org/committee/conservation/vandalism.shtml
(soon to be updated)

o *Facebook* - Yup, we also have a presence there, "Cave Vandalism
Deterrence."  Check it out.

Lastly, please help spread the word that this reward exists. You might let
your fellow grotto members know about this reward. You're also welcome to
forward this message to other grottos & regions, *though I'd appreciate if
you first removed my e-mail address*.  My info is in the Members' Manual
for any NSS member to find.

As you know, cavers are our eyes & ears underground to keep vandalism in
check. The NSS takes vandalism seriously, and it wants to reward those who
are helping to put an end to it.

Cave softly!
Sarah Richards
Chair, NSS Cave Vandalism Deterrence Reward Commission

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Re: [Texascavers] Authors of scientific articles

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  As a scientist, I generally agree with the need for multiple "authors",
including people who had nothing to do with actually writing an article.
However it does seem to have gotten a bit out of control and now people
are listed as authors who should more correctly be listed in the
Acknowledgments.
  As cavers, we do not follow this trend. Caving articles, even about
whole expeditions, are usually authored by no more than three people,
and usually just one or two. Typically every member of the expedition
was important, and they should be mentioned by name in the text, but I
don't think they should be listed as authors.

Geary,
  Long lists of authors have been a hallmark of physics papers for
decades. I have a paper from 1989 (Physical Review Letters) with 188
authors. The list took up the entire first page of the article. And that
was long before the CERN Large Hadron Collider came into being. As huge
collaborations in physics and astronomy become more common, long author
lists are, sadly, likely to become ever more common.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:46 pm, via Texascavers wrote:
> That said, it is often the case that the relative value of an article is
> inversely proportional to the number of authors cited. Given the current
> frenzy to publish and be recognized for Pd work, it would not be
> surprising if the number of authors exceeded the length of the article.
>
> Jerry Atkinson.
>
> On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:27 pm, Geary Schindel via Texascavers wrote:
>> Diana,
>>
>> Very well said, I was thinking of replying also but you hit the nail on
>> the head. Most research these days are a collaboration between many
>> scientists and laboratories. I think the best example I've seen is some
>> of the Super Collider work that might have 150 authors for a paper.
>>
>> Geary Schindel
>> gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Texascavers On Behalf Of Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:16 PM
>> To: Cave Tex
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article
>>
>> Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.
>>
>> It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs.
>> In fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for
>> writing much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.
>>
>> It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or
>> more of the following:
>>
>> Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the
>> experiment Collecting data Analyzing data Presenting data (in graphical,
>> written or other forms such as videos, etc.) Supervising the people that
>> collect, analyze and present the data Drawing important conclusions from
>> the data and testing new hypotheses that result from this all-important
>> step Writing the text of the final document
>>
>> You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors-as they
>> are the ones that are legitimately responsible for the final published
>> work. If there are any questions about what is presented in the work,
>> everyone knows who is responsible.
>>
>> We call this transparency, which unfortunately is lacking in other
>> important human endeavors.
>>
>> Diana
>>
>> **
>> Diana R. Tomchick
>> Professor
>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry University of Texas
>> Southwestern Medical Center
>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>> Rm. ND10.214A
>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>>
>>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Cavers Texas wrote:
>>>
>>> Wow! Fourteen alleged authors for an article with eight paragraphs.
>>> How many of those people do you think were really authors, i.e.,
>>> writers? How many of them were just bottle washers? -- Mixon

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Re: [Texascavers] animal tracks in caves

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Must've been a dream. I was one of the principal explorers of Diamante,
and I've never heard of this before. For one thing, there are
essentially no stream passages in Diamante, and no mud islands that I'm
aware of.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Fri, August 26, 2016 1:41 pm, David via Texascavers wrote:
> I recall a story from them early 1980's of cavers finding footprints of a
> creature on a mud island in a stream passage that looked like the creature
> was 3 feet tall and walked upright based on the size and gate of the
> tracks.
>
> I believe the cave was Cueva del Diamante in the El Abra just north of the
> town of Ciudad Valles.
>
> Did I dream this or was it a joke or a hoax ?
>
> David Locklear
> dlocklea...@gmail.com

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Re: [Texascavers] Research finds porcupines are prominent in many south-central Texas caves

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I've seen porcupines in Texas caves as far back as the '80s. I also
remember a couple of times that there were unusually large numbers of
dead porcupines on the highways in central and west Texas. It was like
they were involved in mass migrations and got caught in the crossfire.
(I've similarly seen large numbers of migrating tarantulas, with lots
smashed on the roads in Texas.)

  Interestingly, we also found a couple of porcupine carcasses very near
the Last Bash entrance to J2 in Oaxaca, Mexico. That particular entrance
is _way_ out in the boonies, so whatever the porcupines were doing
there, it was unlikely to be related to human activity. Maybe they just
like caves. :-)

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, August 25, 2016 9:15 pm, Marvin and Lisa via Texascavers wrote:
> And I can say they have been common in Government Canyon caves for
> years. However, just in the last couple of years have I seen increased
> amounts of road-killed porcupines around Spring Branch.
>
> Marvin Miller
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf
> Of Jerryatkin via Texascavers
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 8:01 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Research finds porcupines are prominent in
> many south-central Texas caves
>
> They're quite common (hence the Porcupine Grotto) in the western Edwards
> Plateau caves.
>
> Jerry Atkinson.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:54 PM, Don Arburn via Texascavers
>>  wrote:
>>
>> A couple live in Deep.
>>
>> --Don
>>
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Jerryatkin via Texascavers
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.theeagle.com/landandlivestockpost/agrilifetoday/research-f
>>> inds-porcupines-are-prominent-in-many-south-central-texas/article_7cf
>>> be577-b3dd-581d-9d44-e2b136b331aa.html
>>>
>>> Jerry Atkinson.

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Re: [Texascavers] Charlie Yates, old SWT caver, passed

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Logan,

  I knew Charlie Yates only peripherally. I remember asking him about a
lead in some West Texas cave (maybe HT Miers or one of the Langtry
caves) back in the '80s. He was very forthcoming, even though he didn't
know me personally. He seemed to be glad that old leads were being
pursued. He will indeed be missed.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, August 11, 2016 9:14 pm, Logan McNatt via Texascavers wrote:
> Just got the sad news that Charlie Yates died several days ago of a
> probable heart attack. He was an active caver in the Southwest Texas
> (SWT) Grotto in San Marcos from ca. 1970 through the mid-1970s. I've
> contacted all the old SWT cavers and friends in my address book, and
> will send an update with the time and place of the funeral when that is
> known.
>
> If you were a member of the SWT Grotto and/or knew Charlie, please email
> me so I can add you to the list for updates.
> He will be missed by those who knew him.
>
> Logan McNatt
> lmcn...@austin.rr.com

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Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Periscope downloads

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Thanks, Katie! Where does David plan to archive these? I hope someone
will put that video up on YouTube or Vimeo as has been suggested.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Mon, August 8, 2016 12:09 pm, Katherine Arens wrote:
>To all:
>David McKenzie found this — you might want it . . .
>k
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: David McKenzie 
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: [Texascavers] Periscope
>> Date: August 7, 2016 at 15:48:20 CDT
>> To: Katherine Arens 
>>
>> It took me only a couple of minutes to find this web page:
>>
>> https://scoperchat.com/forum/tw
>>
>> That led me to a free Windows program, named youtube-dl.exe (source code
>> also available), that allowed me to to download the 46 minute Fernando
>> Hernandez talk. An 81 MB mp4 video was produced. Evidently this is a
>> safe method. I’ll go ahead and get the other four for archiving.
>>
>> --David

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Re: [Texascavers] Nuevo Laredo

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  We cross at Nuevo laredo on the way to and from Huautla every year,
sometimes at Colombia and sometimes at the main crossing in town. It
hasn't been a problem, and we never see anything out of the ordinary.
However, we make a point of crossing in daylight, and we don't drive at
night in general. We take toll roads whenever possible. There are now
good roads throughout most of Mexico, and travel is much faster and
safer than it used to be on the old, narrow, two-lane highways. Tolls
are expensive (about $100 one way to Huautla), but worth it.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, August 4, 2016 3:45 am, David via Texascavers wrote:
> Do Texas cavers still pass thru the bordertown of Nuevo Laredo on
> their way to Bustamante ?
>
> If so, here is a travel-safety-related story:
-
> I guess the point to this post is not to travel off the beaten path
> there at night.

> I can't remember the last time I crossed at the Columbia Bridge.It
> was probably 20 years ago.

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Re: [Texascavers] NSS convention Registration

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I have asked the Registration Chairperson to please post the list of
registrants, so far to no avail. That list has traditionally been
published so that people could check who they might know that was coming
as well as that their own registration had been recorded properly.
Unfortunately it seems the organizers of this convention don't seem to
know much about the way NSS Conventions are typically organized. One
wonders whether they have ever been to one before. For example, they
scheduled a band other than the Terminal Syphons to play at the
Wednesday night Campground Party. :-(

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Tue, July 12, 2016 8:26 pm, C Tiderman via Texascavers wrote:
> Mark,
> You can get a lot of what you are looking for at the web site.
> Unfortunately, there is not a who's coming list.

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Re: [Texascavers] 1966 NSS Convention Photos

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Speaking of being young, last spring in Huautla we inadvertently
rediscovered one of the entrances to Nita Nanta. It wasn't immediately
recognizable because the roads and trails had changed, and land use
around the entrances had gone from farm fields to forest. The cave was
resurveyed to a known connection with main Nita Nanta, at which point it
became obvious what had happened. There they found a couple of our old
self-drive bolts and were able to unscrew the bolt on one and brought it
out. It was amazingly unrusted in spite of not being stainless steel and
having lived in a cave for 35 years. We determined that that bolt had
been set a couple of months before one member of the 2016 expedition
(Zeb Lilly) had even been born. There's a good chance that I set that
bolt. There aren't many activities where you can find people of such
different ages still actively participating in field work. :-)

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Mon, July 11, 2016 5:18 pm, Bill Bentley - ca...@caver.net via
Texascavers wrote:
>
> I was 6 years old!
-
>
>> On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:55 PM, TexasCavers 
>> wrote:
>>
>> In 1966 --- 50 years ago this month --- the NSS convened at Sequoia
>> National Park, California.

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Re: [Texascavers] 1966 convention photos

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I didn't know John Cooper personally, but a couple of years ago we made
a connection between a couple of caves in Burnsville, Virginia and found
his NSS number and others carbided on the wall near the connection point.
We looked them up and remarkably most of those old-timers were still alive
and remembered the cave. John was surprised we had made the connection,
which they knew was close but was out of reach until modern technology
for widening came on the scene. He helped us identify one of the other
people whose NSS number we had found. John died in 2015, as Ediger pointed
out last fall.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Mon, July 11, 2016 7:44 pm, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:

> Definitely John Cooper, but I think maybe the guy in the striped shirt is
> Don Cournoyer.
> --
> Speaking of Cooper, his caving memoirs should be out before too long. I
> did some editing and the design and layout of the 362-page book. NSS
> tentatively to publish it. Title is "Cave of the Boa Constrictors."

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Re: [Texascavers] 1966 NSS Convention Photos

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  When I started organized caving in 1968 I had neither tent nor sleeping
pad. I'm not sure I even knew sleeping pads existed! My sleeping bag was
one of those bulky old Coleman kapok bags. I had an army-surplus poncho
that I threw over me if it rained. I got plenty wet inside due to
condensation, but it wasn't as bad as the rain itself. That was the way
I camped on my first trip to Mexico in December of the same year, when
we stopped at Devils Sinkhole on the way south, which was also my first
experience with bump gates. I think I got a tent and air mattress soon
after.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Mon, July 11, 2016 4:55 pm, Carl Kunath via Texascavers wrote:
> In 1966 --- 50 years ago this month --- the NSS convened at Sequoia
> National Park, California.
> It was the 25th Anniversary of the NSS and it was a little bit special in
> that regard.
--
> I'm not sure who the sleeping cavers are, but I do note that there
> are no tents and, with one exception, no air mattresses or sleeping pads.
> Cavers were extra tough in those days.

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Re: [Texascavers] Citing previous posts

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I second Geary's response. On the rare occasion that a thread is
something I want to keep for the long term, I appreciate having all of
the relevant emails quoted so that I only have to keep one email, rather
than a bunch of them to get back to the earlier conversation. It costs
almost nothing in storage or download time to include the extra text,
and it's easy to stop reading as soon as you're up to speed on the
discussion. On the other hand, I agree that quoting unrelated material
is useless and distracting.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sun, July 10, 2016 11:46 am, Geary Schindel via Texascavers wrote:
--
> However, I did want to point out something related to deleting the
> replies to the replies from previous posts. Considering that I get a
> ton of emails every day from a huge assortment of folks and receive
> the Texas Caves as individual posts and not the daily digest, I
> actually appreciate having the original email thread at the bottom of
> the post as it allows me to place the responder's comments in context
> - sort of like a complete reference. I don't know how many emails I get
> from folks that have deleted the original post they are replying to and
> you can't make any sense of the post without reading the entire thread.
> By that time, I've usually deleted the original post so don't have a
> clue what they are talking about or can't find it.

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Re: [Texascavers] related to Bata Boots

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I haven't used Bata Boots for several years, but I was unaware of the
change of manufacturer to Onguard and now, apparently, Dunlop. Bata
still exists , but they no longer seem
to make the classic "Bata" boot that cavers used. When I was buying them
(bulk purchases for UT Grotto), I got them from Gemplers
.
Gemplers still carries them, but made by Onguard/Dunlap.

  It would be nice if the sole had better grip. We used to call them Bata
skis. Thanks for the update.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, June 30, 2016 1:50 am, David via Texascavers wrote:
> A few years ago, I was told that a company called Onguard was the the
> distributor for Bata Boots or Bata style boots.
>
> http://www.safeshoes.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/o/n/ong86104.jpg
>
> ( a.k.a. Polyblend 6" Plain Toe workshoe with cleated outsole )
>
> For some weird reason, I got an email today from Onguard saying they
> were bought out by Dunlop Boots.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://www.onguardindustries.com/content/index.cfm?sID=33=48
>
> Anyways, you can order these boots at the following email:
>
> orders-...@dunlopboots.com
>
> specify "plain toe" or you will get a "steel toe," and I think most
> cavers agree that steel toe is NOT what you want. Also, you want to
> wear neoprene socks in these if you are river caving,
> so you want them a size larger than what you would normally wear.
>
> The advantage to these boots is that they provide more ankle
> protection than a pull-up style rubber boot. And this brand has a
> more rugged sole for better grip.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/ONGUARD-86103-Polyurethane-Polyblend-Workshoe/dp/B00127Y2D6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1467265629=8-1=polyblend+plain+toe+6%22
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Onguard-Polyblend-6-Plain-Toe-Work-Boots-Mens-Sizes-/220652099903?var==item335fe3d93f:m:mK1KTzYF3OhBGNQ2JpKWj_g
>
> David Locklear
> NSS # 27639

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Re: [Texascavers] Old Rope

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

On Mon, June 27, 2016 1:29 pm, David via Texascavers wrote:

> All of my PMI caving ropes are old now, but have been in nylon sacks
> in a dry rental storage unit for over nearly 20 years. So not sure if
> I would use them in a pit or not. My 600 foot rope only has been in one
> dry cave entrance.

  As long as those ropes have been stored as described and not exposed to
acids, alkalies, bleach, etc., I would certainly use them. I use
20-year-old rope frequently.
  Just recently I got some rope test results from a TAG caver (Jim
Youmans) who had used and abused some of his caving ropes after they
were retired from caving. In spite of having been used to tow things and
left out in the sun and soaked  in water, the tests came back
astonishingly strong; certainly good enough for continued use even in
caving.
  If you don't want those ropes, David, I'll take them. ;-)

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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[Texascavers] New Cave Paintings in Mexico

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Newly discovered "cave" paintings are creating quite a stir in Mexican
archaeology circles. I suspect the "caves" in question are really just
rock shelters; Burgos is east of Linares and north of Cd. Victoria.


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] A question and a comment concerning Cass

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

On Thu, June 23, 2016 12:35 pm, Sleazeweazel via Texascavers wrote:
--
> As to Cass being cold and wet, that's a fact! There used to be a sign by
> the drop announcing that you would die if you went down by the waterfall.
> That left the belay loft where you could easily get stuck coming back up
> because the  rope could easily get wedged in an impassible crack.

  That old sign is still there! Everyone has used the Belay Loft in recent
times. There are various bolts set there, and the best ones keep the
rope out of any slots. All that is needed is a pad where the rope passes
over a ledge not far below the rig point. The rest of the drop is free.
Alas, the Cass main entrance has been closed for several years. :-(

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Was one of the other caves on Laubach's place called Steam Cave? That
was one of the first Texas caves I ever visited, while passing through
on my first trip to Mexico in 1968 (I'm old, too...). ;-)

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, June 23, 2016 12:25 pm, Sam Young via Texascavers wrote:

> Question:  Wasn't "Laughbach" the name of the land owner?  He had some
> more caves on his place and we had access to those.    Sam Young

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Re: [Texascavers] Cass Cave

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Unfortunately, Cass Cave has been closed to general caving for several
years. Even when we did the resurvey for the monograph David referenced
, it was otherwise
closed. Occasional work trips may be arranged by special permission for
a select few, but recreational trips are not allowed. Please do not
attempt to go there.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, June 22, 2016 7:10 pm, David via Texascavers wrote:
> I have been in about two dozen vertical caves, and probably 3 dozen, if
> you count all the trips to the same cave. One of those was Cass Cave.
>
> Cass Cave was the most fun vertical cave that I have been on in
> the States. There is a not cave that much fun within a 15 hour drive of
> Houston that is accessible to cavers at the present time.
> ( 21 hours 15 minutes from Austin, according to Google )
>
> I would recommend to all cavers to add Cass Cave to their Bucket List,
> and plan on spending several days of tourist activities in Pocohontas
> County, West Virginia.
>
> Unfortunately, to go to Cass Cave from Texas would require at least a 4
> day weekend, and 5 days would still be stressful, unless you flew to
> Charleston, West Virginia and rented a car. I presume there is a
> specific contact person or group to contact to ask for a trip
> invitation. I can only guess they would want you to have 3 years of
> caving experience and own your own vertical gear. Right ?
>
>  https://www.wvass.org/images/mono4.jpg
>
> CaverBob, list Cass Cave as the 186th deepest cave in the States.
>
> You do need to plan on being cold and wet, but as long as you stay
> moving or do not get stuck in the same spot, then you won't be
> uncomfortable, unless your metabolism doesn't like cold and wet caves.
> ( cold by Texas standards, I mean )
>
> West Virginia is so nice, someone should write a song about it.
>
> David Locklear
>
> Ref:
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3964012,-79.9428927,15z
>
> http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/assets/0002/7189/pocahontas1200ap_huge.jpg?1362774275
>
> http://www.yellowmaps.com/usgs/topomaps/drg24/30p/o38079d8.jpg

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Re: [Texascavers] Old Caving Photo

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I have no idea who took the picture. It's an old Polaroid print that I
scanned. All that's written on the back is "Cuetzalan field house
Christmas 1980". I have no log from that trip, and don't even know who
all was along.

Mark

On Tue, June 21, 2016 10:19 pm, Nancy Weaver via Texascavers wrote:
> so who took the picture?
>
> nancy
>
>> On Jun 20, 2016, at 3:22 PM, Mark Minton via Texascavers
>> <texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Attached is a photo showing cavers in the Cuetzalan (Puebla, Mexico)
>> field house in 1980, about 35 years ago. Whom do you recognize? Of those
>> present, I think only a few are still caving at all, and maybe only one
>> actively. The same field house also served a Mexican scout troop and we
>> found their stash of caving gear: fiberglass helmets and Butterfly
>> carbide lamps. ¡Siempre Listo!
>>
>> Mark Minton
>> mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Rick Rigg

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Rick Rigg went to Huautla in 1982 (worked on Nita Nashi). He was also
active in a few other areas of Mexico for a while. Before that he was
active in BCCS (Butler Cave) in Virginia while living in Pennsylvania,
and then did some alpine caving in the west after moving to Idaho.
  After he quit caving, Rick became heavily involved in kayaking and river
running out West. He was on the 2-week, 200-mile trip I did with Blake
Harrison, George Love, Rene Shields, etc. on the Middle Fork and Main
Salmon Rivers in 1999.

Mark

On Tue, June 21, 2016 10:59 am, Bill Steele via Texascavers wrote:
> Rick Rigg went to Huautla once when I wasn't there, I think in 1981. He
> was originally from PA but moved to Idaho. He's probably 7 or so years
> older than me and hasn't done much in many years. I've never been caving
> with him
>
> How's Marley doing?
>
> Bill
>
>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
>> <texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>>
>> I find it highly amusing that Norm Pace, the National Academy of
>> Sciences member and a MacArthur Fellow, was the only one that looked
>> like a science nerd, albeit a happy one.
>>
>> Who was Rick Rigg? I've never heard anyone talk about him.
>>
>> Diana
>>
>> **
>> Diana R. Tomchick
>> Professor
>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>> Rm. ND10.214A
>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>>
>>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 1:14 AM, texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for posting, Mark! Although I don't remember posing with those
>>> boy scout helmets and Butterfly lamp boxes, I do have many fond
>>> memories of that trip and the Cuetzalan area.
>>> The cavers pictured are:
>>> Top row: left to right me (Frank Binney), you (Mark Minton), Lisa
>>> Wilk
>>> Bottom row: Norm Pace, Bill Liebman, Rick Rigg
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> Frank Binney
>>> Frank Binney & Associates
>>> Interpretive Planning and Media Development
>>> P.O. Box 258
>>> Woodacre, CA 94973
>>> 415.488.1200 Voice
>>> 415.488.1500 Fax
>>> 415.999.0556 Mobile
>>> fr...@frankbinney.com
>>>
>>> On 6/20/16, 6:22 PM, "Texacavers on behalf of Mark Minton via
>>> Texascavers" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attached is a photo showing cavers in the Cuetzalan (Puebla, Mexico)
>>>> field house in 1980, about 35 years ago. Whom do you recognize? Of
>>>> those present, I think only a few are still caving at all, and maybe
>>>> only one actively. The same field house also served a Mexican scout
>>>> troop and we found their stash of caving gear: fiberglass helmets
>>>> and Butterfly carbide lamps. ¡Siempre Listo!
>>>>
>>>> Mark Minton
>>>> mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Old Caving Photo

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Frank (and Bill Steele, who responded privately) got them all right.
It's too bad no one is seriously working the Cuetzalan area these days.
There are still plenty of good leads, but activity pretty much halted
after the British fiasco in 2004, over 12 years ago. :-(

Mark

On Tue, June 21, 2016 2:14 am, Frank Binney via Texascavers wrote:
>
> Thanks for posting, Mark! Although I don't remember posing with those
> boy scout helmets and Butterfly lamp boxes, I do have many fond memories
> of that trip and the Cuetzalan area.
> The cavers pictured are:
> Top row: left to right me (Frank Binney), you (Mark Minton), Lisa Wilk
> Bottom row: Norm Pace, Bill Liebman, Rick Rigg
> Frank
>
> Frank Binney
> Frank Binney & Associates
> Interpretive Planning and Media Development
> P.O. Box 258
> Woodacre, CA 94973
> 415.488.1200 Voice
> 415.488.1500 Fax
> 415.999.0556 Mobile
> fr...@frankbinney.com
>
> On 6/20/16, 6:22 PM, "Texacavers on behalf of Mark Minton via
> Texascavers" wrote:
>
>>  Attached is a photo showing cavers in the Cuetzalan (Puebla, Mexico)
>>field house in 1980, about 35 years ago. Whom do you recognize? Of those
>>present, I think only a few are still caving at all, and maybe only one
>>actively. The same field house also served a Mexican scout troop and we
>>found their stash of caving gear: fiberglass helmets and Butterfly
>>carbide lamps. ¡Siempre Listo!
>>
>>Mark Minton
>>mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Link to special issue of Journal of Earth Sciences (BGM), Large Karst Systems of the World

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  The contents are also available in English at
. It's annoying that there
doesn't seem to be a way to download the entire issue as a single
document, and I couldn't find any way to download the front matter
listed in the Index.

  Nonetheless, some good stuff in there, although it's certainly overreach
to claim they are covering anywhere near all of the large karst systems
of the world, while nevertheless covering some rather insignificant
ones.

Mark Minton

On Sun, June 19, 2016 11:40 pm, John Lyles wrote:
> While the contents are listed in Spanish, English readers can see from
> the titles whats available for download. The reports are bilingual.
>
> http://www.igme.es/boletin/ultimoNum.htm

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Re: [Texascavers] a caver question

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

On Mon, June 20, 2016 7:32 am, Mark Alman wrote:
>-
> When it's 100+ outside, caving is about the last thing on my mind.
>
> (Yes, there IS more to life than caving.)

  Actually, I think that is exactly the right time to go caving! Where
else do you get free air conditioning? I remember one Fourth of July
weekend we had a trip into Honey Creek. It was blazing hot outside and
thousands of people were sweltering at Willie Nelson's Picnic. We were
basking in the cool water and wondering why anyone would want to be
outside...

Mark Minton

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[Texascavers] Lesotho Cave History

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  CNN story about burial caves in Lesotho, southern Africa:


Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Unsigned Posts

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Actually, the headers on most of the recent Texascaver posts do give the
name of the sender. For instance Jim Kennedy's showed up in my inbox as
"Crash Kennedy via Texascavers"  (see reply
header below). What is _not_ shown is the sender's email address, so
it's not possible to reply personally - you have to reply to the list.
Nevertheless, I agree that it is common courtesy to sign your emails,
and to provide an email address.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Tue, May 24, 2016 9:16 pm, Crash Kennedy via Texascavers wrote:
> But CaveTex strips out the senders name, so it just shows up as being from
> texascavers.com.  Therefore, if you (and everyone else) fails to put your
> name at the end of your posting, none of us know the author.  It's a
> common courtesy.
>
> Jim Kennedy

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Re: [Texascavers] Devils Sinkhole trip

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  As the inimitable Mike Boon once said in his old age, "the mind is
willing but the body ain't."

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, March 31, 2016 8:44 pm, Charles Loving via Texascavers wrote:
> Good idea. It has been a long, long time since I even considered
> descending into a pit. The knees refuse to cooperate any more. The
> youthful mind is deterred by the aged body.

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Re: [Texascavers] March Government Canyon Karst Project Report

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Marvin, et al.,

  The climb out of the tight fissure in Lilyhammer Cave sounds like a
perfect place for a spike or two. For the last couple of years in VA and
WV we have been using 8-inch by 3/8-inch landscape spikes for foot- and
handholds on climbs. These are available at Lowe's for about .50 each.
 We
use the same size drill bit that we use for bolts. The only thing to be
careful about is that the spike is placed so that it is out of the way
when sliding down, so that no one gets impaled on it. They're a lot more
convenient than a cable ladder or rope and vertical gear in many
situations.
  I gave a Lightning Talk about using these spikes, or nails as we usually
call them, at last year's NSS Convention in Missouri. At some point
we'll write an article on the technique for the "NSS News".

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sat, March 26, 2016 9:28 pm, Marvin and Lisa via Texascavers wrote:
> Government Canyon Karst Project Report
>
> March 5 & 6, 2016
---
> Lilyhammer Cave Survey Team
>
> It was a clean-washed vertical fissure in solid rock - obviously the
> drain for the pit. The top of the fissure looked very tight for a
> vertical passage - easy going down with gravity's help but hell coming
> back up. There was some slope to the wall 1.5 m down that might provide
> something to push off of on the way up. I knew Kevin had gone down and
> come up once so I wasn't too concerned. Kevin went down first and I
> invited Sarah to go next. She followed him down the fissure but then
> was unwilling to free climb the next "20 ft" (6 m) pit. She came back
> up and, as I had feared, had trouble with the top part. Her head was
> through the hole but she couldn't find purchase to push her body through.
> After she struggled a bit she called for Kevin to come up below her and
> provide a foothold. With that she had no further trouble.

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[Texascavers] Caves in National Parks

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  There was a collection of stories about Jewel and Wind Caves in the Los
Angeles Times last month:
.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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[Texascavers] Monica Ponce

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

There's an interview with Mexican caver Monica Ponce in the Spanish
journal Gota a Gota at

(https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4JcDrAba_RPRmdoSHpabkV0bFU/view).

Mark Minton


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Re: [Texascavers] Rope inquiry

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Herman,

  What brand of rope is it, and what is your cost? I can think of a
project or two that might be interested. 10mm is the sweet spot between
heavy, stiff 11mm and light, not-very-abrasion-resistant 9mm.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Fri, December 11, 2015 7:05 pm, Herman Miller via Texascavers wrote:
> I still have 1k feet of clean unused 10m rope for sale at cost;  never
> seen the light of day, just thought I'd have been speaking a lot more
> Spanish on my caving trips then what I am now.

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Re: [Texascavers] Big and Texas

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Not necessarily. What about Kickapoo
Caverns?

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Fri, December 11, 2015 12:39 pm, Nico Escamilla via Texascavers wrote:
> Big and texas cant go together in a sentence if its cave related... I
> thought people knew that
>
> Nico

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Re: [Texascavers] Tags for Rigging Anchors

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Such ID tags for anchors have been discussed many times over the years,
but I've never seen them implemented. I don't know why - probably too
much trouble to coordinate, produce and distribute such tags.

  The circumstances where rigging tags would be useful are variable. In an
on-going project, there is usually enough institutional memory to know
at least roughly when anchors were set and how good they are. In all of
the projects I have been involved with in the last 20 years or so, we
have adopted stainless steel bolts, hangers and quick links. As long as
stainless anchors are set properly and kept tight, they last essentially
forever. In these situations, tags are not needed.

 In popular sport caves, on the other hand, one typically has no idea
where anchors came from. This is the situation where some sort of ID
would be most useful, but unless one group took it upon themselves to rig
and maintain permanent anchors on specific routes, there would be no
consistency or trust engendered. This leads to bolt forests at pitch
heads and rapid depletion of optimal rigging sites.

  In order to prevent such a proliferation of bolts, there has been a
program in England and perhaps elsewhere in Europe to install long
glue-in anchors on popular underground routes. These are well-publicized
so that people know they are reliable. Even then, I don't know whether
or not they put ID tags on those anchors. Another consideration is who
pays for such anchors. They aren't cheap.

  The reality is that no matter whether there is a tag or not, stainless,
glue-in or whatever, there will always be people who do not trust an
anchor they have no personal knowledge of. In caves with no access
control, I think bolt proliferation is likely inevitable, especially
given that they are now so easy to install with power drills.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sun, October 25, 2015 12:04 pm, Robert B via Texascavers wrote:
>
> Seeking opinions...
>
> Within the greater vertical caving community... what are peoples
> opinion to adding a "Tag Plate" to rigging anchors. Especially in a
> cave where a route may justify using or placing rigging at same
> general location.
>
> The Tag Plate would be made from an aluminum strip (maybe another
> material ???) and have such information as placement date, bolt
> manufacturer, type, diameter, depth. Anchor information could be put
> on there too, but may not be needed as one can more easily inspect
> the anchor.
>
> Maybe add a 'Tag #' that could be included in survey notes and map.
>
> This 'Tag Plate' would attach to the anchor/bolt in some manner as to
> not obstruct use. Some sort of wire maybe??? Think heavy industry.
> Every piece of equipment is Tagged.
>
> If a project agrees ahead of time to use the same type of bolts and
> anchors, then Tags could be made ahead of time and installed as
> rigging crew sets each point.
>
> Consider this...
> You are on the rigging team. You come to a point in a cave where you
> must set some anchors.
> You notice three (3) other full sets of anchors.They may be in very
> good looking condition and the location is perfect... BUT???
> Who set these?
> When or how old are they?
> What kind of bolt did they use?
> Is the bolt deep enough, strong enough?
> Is it stainless? Galvanized?
> Is there corrosion due to dissimilar metals that I cant see?
>
> Would a 'Tag' help you in these situations?
> Other info to add to Tag?
>
> Rob Bisset

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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I have heard it said that if you explore a cave but do not survey, take
photos and/or write it up, then it didn't happen. That may be true from
the perspective of the wider caver community and posterity, but the
effect on the cave will likely be irrevocable. Unless no one ever goes
there again, then some time in the future when other cavers rediscover
your scoop, they will find footsteps where there should be none. Very
few caves are active enough to erase all evidence of prior human
passage. When those future cavers see that someone has been there before
them, they will wonder who and when, and it will at least somewhat
diminish their triumph. I've been in that situation, and though those
were still significant discoveries, I always wonder who was there before
and why no record was made.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Drones for rigging

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  There is a TED talk that discusses and demonstrates really cool
quadcopter stuff using a closed GPS-type system that might work
underground: 
http://www.ted.com/talks/raffaello_d_andrea_the_astounding_athletic_power_of_quadcopters?language=en

Mark

On Mon, September 28, 2015 11:10 am, Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers wrote:
> Here's one I've been thinking of purchasing. They indicate they will have
> a proximity sensor option in the future:
> http://www.ascentaerosystems.com/sprite. Combine it with the live control
> panel and we might just have a 'cave capable' drone for checking out high
> leads.
>
> Wm
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf
> Of Mark Minton via Texascavers
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:00 AM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Drones for rigging
>
>   Here is a link to a (no doubt pricey) "collision-proof" drone:
> <http://www.flyability.com/>. The cage likely reduces payload for other
> things, but it might at least work with a video camera for recon, even if
> it couldn't do any rigging. Another lightweight option would be to use a
> drone to simply drape a string over a suitable anchor (if one could be
> found) and use that to pull up a rope later. Something similar was done
> years ago using a helium balloon for Top of the Cross in Carlsbad.
>
> Mark
>
> On Sun, September 27, 2015 11:19 pm, Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers
> wrote:
>>
>> There are a lot of factors when dealing with obstacles around you
>> while flying.  If I know I'm going to be flying near walls or other
>> things that could interrupt the props, I have prop guards that I can be
>> put on.
>>
>> I have smacked a canyon wall once, while "ridge walking" using my
>> drone, luckily it survived, even after falling 20 feet and hitting a
>> large rock at the bottom, but I was very lucky and no, didn't have the
>> guards on that time.
>>
>> Terrain/obstacle avoidance would be a nice feature of a drone, give me
>> sensors to let me know how far away I am on 3 axis and I'd be happy :)
>> Even if it cost a bit of weight and lowered my flight time.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Mixon Bill via Texascavers
>> <texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You'll notice that the video of using a drone for rigging has nicely
>>> padded walls, presumably to protect the drone. Just yesterday I was
>>> talking to a profession film maker who uses drones on his projects.
>>> He said drones and canyons don't go well together, at least not when
>>> the drone is carrying an expensive video camera. I would think trying
>>> fly a drone anywhere near a cave wall would be a big problem. --
>>> Mixon

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Re: [Texascavers] Drones for rigging

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Here is a link to a (no doubt pricey) "collision-proof" drone:
. The cage likely reduces payload for other
things, but it might at least work with a video camera for recon, even
if it couldn't do any rigging. Another lightweight option would be to
use a drone to simply drape a string over a suitable anchor (if one
could be found) and use that to pull up a rope later. Something similar
was done years ago using a helium balloon for Top of the Cross in
Carlsbad.

Mark

On Sun, September 27, 2015 11:19 pm, Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers wrote:
>
> There are a lot of factors when dealing with obstacles around you while
> flying.  If I know I'm going to be flying near walls or other things
> that could interrupt the props, I have prop guards that I can be put on.
>
> I have smacked a canyon wall once, while "ridge walking" using my drone,
> luckily it survived, even after falling 20 feet and hitting a large rock
> at the bottom, but I was very lucky and no, didn't have the guards on
> that time.
>
> Terrain/obstacle avoidance would be a nice feature of a drone, give me
> sensors to let me know how far away I am on 3 axis and I'd be happy :)
> Even if it cost a bit of weight and lowered my flight time.
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Mixon Bill via Texascavers
>  wrote:
>
>> You'll notice that the video of using a drone for rigging has nicely
>> padded walls, presumably to protect the drone. Just yesterday I was
>> talking to a profession film maker who uses drones on his projects.
>> He said drones and canyons don't go well together, at least not when
>> the drone is carrying an expensive video camera. I would think trying
>> fly a drone anywhere near a cave wall would be a big problem. -- Mixon

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[Texascavers] Drones for rigging

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Here's a video from a European caving forum showing drones being used to
rig a rope bridge strong enough for humans to cross. This could have
practical application for caving, at least if you could see well enough
and trust the anchors.

.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] John Cooper

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I didn't know John Cooper personally, but a year and a half ago we made
a connection between a couple of caves in Burnsville, Virginia and found
his NSS number carbided on the wall near the connection point. We looked
him up and sent him an email with the news. He responded positively and
remembered his trip there. He was surprised we had made the connection,
which they knew was close but was out of reach until modern technology
for widening came on the scene. Too bad he's gone.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, September 9, 2015 12:33 pm, Gill Ediger via Texascavers wrote:
>
> Some of you older Texas and NSS cavers will remember John Cooper. He died
> a few days ago. I got the following note yesterday:
> 
>  In case you hadn't heard of it yet, here is a link to his obituary.
>
> John's obituary and tributes can be viewed at:
>
>  http://www.tributes.com/obituary/show/John-Edward-Cooper-102801040
>
> --Ediger

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Re: [Texascavers] SuperSpeleOlympics

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Here are a couple of ideas that might work in a special speleolympics.
Many years ago at OTR in West Virginia there was an obstacle "rope"
climb. In addition to lengths of  rope with different diameters and a
couple of knots, it also included a length of chain and a piece of water
pipe with a faucet on a tee in the middle. Obviously the only way to
climb it was with Prusik knots, but even then it was amusing to watch.
  An idea that Yvonne and I recently came up with but haven't tried to
implement yet, is to construct a "cable" ladder with bungee cords
instead of rope or metal cables. If the right stiffness of bungee could
be found, the ladder might stretch enough when loaded that reaching from
rung to rung would be very difficult, not to mention the recoil from
unloading the rungs below. Should be fun to experiment with.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Mon, August 31, 2015 1:18 pm, Don Arburn via Texascavers wrote:
> "Advanced SpeleOlympics"?
>
> An intriguing idea has surfaced for this years TCR. This idea may
> incorporate elements of a re-belay course, CaveSim, squeezebox, water
> feature and possibly short adverse survey.
> "SuperSpeleOlympics"?
>
> The concern is twofold: it may not happen again (CaveSim availability and
> cost), and concern for those who would normally do Speleolympics but who
> don't have adequate vertical skills.
>
> Can we get regular Speleolympics Officials from the past involved in this
> topic?
>
> Discuss:
>
> --Ringmaster

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[Texascavers] Fwd: Measuring Strike and Dip With a DistoX

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Greg Springer of WVACS has developed an easy method for measuring strike
and dip in a cave using a DistoX. See his email below, forwarded with
permission.

Mark Minton

 Original Message 
Subject: Measuring Strike and Dip With a DistoX
From:Greg wvdirtboy wvdirt...@gmail.com
Date:Sat, August 22, 2015 3:41 pm
--

Measuring Strike and Dip with a DistoX2
By Greg Springer

Cave development is strongly influenced by folds and faults. Caves passages
often trend parallel to folds or, as a geologist would say, along strike.
And, just as often, cave passages will go down the side of a fold or, more
properly, down dip. Knowing the strike and dip of rocks is quite useful
for inferring where to dig or look for suspected passages. As a result,
cavers sometimes measure strike and dip using Bruntons or similar
instruments, but few cavers own Bruntons or know where to steal one.

Fortunately, measuring strike and dip can now easily and accurately be
measured with a DistoX or X2 and the number of DistoXs in circulation has
skyrocketed in recent years. The measurement process is simple:

1. Find an exposed bedding surface (top or bottom of a rock bed).
See diagram here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilikegooglebetter/20607560279

2. Pick a spot on the bedding surface, take a shot, and write down the
result (all three numbers).

3. Hold the DistoX at the same location as was used for the first shot,
but shoot a foot or more away from the first (see diagram). Widely spaced
points will usually yield a more reliable result because they average
across roughness on the measured surface.

4. Pick and shoot a third spot such that the three points form a
triangle.

5. After the trip, download an Excel workbook from the West Virginia
Association for Cave Studies at
http://www.wvacs.org/files/3PointStrikeAndDip.xlsx (just type the address
into your browser).

6. Enter the three unprocessed shots into the worksheet labeled From
DistoX Shots and the strike and dip values will automatically appear in
highlighted cells. Alternatively, you can enter the shots into your cave
database program of choice and enter the NEZ coordinates of the shots
(stations) into a second worksheet provided (From NEZ Coordinates) in the
file. There are no formulas to enter; just type the shots in the indicated
cells. It is as simple as that, but don't forget to adjust the strike for
magnetic declination.

Curious minded people can view the formulas in the Excel spreadsheet if
they want the gory mathematical details of the procedure. Those who sketch
with tablets may want to adapt the math or spreadsheet such that it will
run in an app and thus allow strike and dip values to be obtained while
still underground. Enjoy!

Greg SpringerMeasuring Strike and Dip with a DistoX2By Greg SpringerCave development is strongly influenced by folds and faults. Caves passages often trend parallel to folds or, as a geologist would say, along “strike”. And, just as often, cave passages will go down the side of a fold or, more properly, “down dip”. Knowing the strike and dip of rocks is quite useful for inferring where to dig or look for suspected passages. As a result, cavers sometimes measure strike and dip using Bruntons or similar instruments, but few cavers own Bruntons or know where to steal one.Fortunately, measuring strike and dip can now easily and accurately be measured with a DistoX or X2 and the number of DistoXs in circulation has skyrocketed in recent years. The measurement process is simple:1.     Find an exposed bedding surface (top or bottom of a rock bed). See diagram here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilikegooglebetter/206075602792.     Pick a spot on the bedding surface, take a shot, and write down the result (all three numbers).3.     Hold the DistoX at the same location as was used for the first shot, but shoot a foot or more away from the first (see diagram). Widely spaced points will usually yield a more reliable result because they average across roughness on the measured surface.4.     Pick and shoot a third spot such that the three points form a triangle.5.     After the trip, download an Excel workbook from the West Virginia Association for Cave Studies at http://www.wvacs.org/files/3PointStrikeAndDip.xlsx (just type the address into your browser).6.     Enter the three unprocessed shots into the worksheet labeled “From DistoX Shots” and the strike and dip values will automatically appear in highlighted cells. Alternatively, you can enter the shots into your cave database program of choice and enter the NEZ coordinates of the shots (stations) into a second worksheet provided (“From NEZ Coordinates”) in the file. There are no formulas to enter; just type the shots in the indicated cells. It is as simple as that, but don’t forget to adjust the strike for magnetic declination.Curious 

Re: [Texascavers] book review: cave rescue manual

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Back in the '80s, some Swiss cavers on a recon mission on Cerro Rabon
(highlands east of Huautla, Oaxaca, Mexico) did a 200-meter drop on 8-mm
rope. They were used to skinny rope, but that was extreme even for them.
Afterwards they said, Our eyes were very wide! 8-mm rope gets really
small when you weight it on a rack or bobbin...

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Fri, August 21, 2015 4:05 pm, Les Ward via Texascavers wrote:
 Let me know when you'd like to take me on a trip that involves 9mm rope.
 I'll pretend I've never seen it before, just for the joy of being on it.
 I'll even bring some other flashing light guys with me. Though, be
 warned, two of us are ones that got strange looks from NCRC instructors as
 we did a 30' muenter hitch rap on 8mm. (It's what we had available)
 Anyway, nice write up.

 Les Ward

 P.S. We don't like the parasites either

 Sent from my iPhone...

 On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:14, Mixon Bill via Texascavers
 texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:

 Manual of U.S. Cave Rescue Techniques, third edition, edited by Anmar
 Mirza. National Cave Rescue Commission, 2015. ISBN 237230362.
 Approximately 250 pages, 8.5 by 11 inches, softbound, $50.

 This book, a much-needed and thorough revision of the 1988 second
 edition, is a bound version of a collection of chapters, with pages
 numbered independently, that are used in looseleaf form during
 cave-rescue courses offered by the National Cave Rescue Commission of
 the NSS. The thirty-six chapters have version numbers, like software,
 ranging from 1.2 to 2.3, and presumably the looseleaf versions have been
 evolving and will continue to do so, but it is valuable that a bound
 book is available for permanent reference. Twenty authors are listed,
 plus whoever wrote the thirteen anonymous chapters. The numerous
 illustrations are clear and a lot better than those in the second
 edition.

 The National Cave Rescue Commission is charged with coordination between
 cavers and civil agencies, and a large fraction of its training
 customers are professional emergency personnel, so catering to them is
 not surprising. There are references to local protocols and Form 205 and
 even a few mentions of half-inch rope, which cavers haven't used since
 the Manila Age. I'd like to be there when a fireman encounters a
 9-millimeter rope hanging in a pit.

 But there is a lot in the book that should be of interest even to cavers
 who hope never to be involved in a 911 emergency situation. There are
 succinct descriptions of various vertical systems and a good discussion
 of knots. A lot of the material about rigging is pertinent to any
 vertical caving, as long as one recognizes what some of it is important
 only when one is lifting a loaded litter with attendant. There is little
 about first-aid beyond stopping major blood loss and preventing
 hyperthermia, but realistically there is little that can be done in the
 cave. CPR is not likely to work in cases of trauma. There is a chapter
 on small-party self-rescue, and a lot of other things in the book are
 relevant to that, too, such as ways of lowering a person immobilized on
 rope besides the dangerous and last-resort pickoff. One thing worth
 noting is that a Gibbs-type ascender, rather than the toothed-cam sort,
 is preferable for many hauling uses, and a caving party might have a
 couple along, plus a small pulley or so, even if none is part of
 anyone's climbing system. Of course a large part of the book is devoted
 to packaging a patient in a litter and hauling it out of the cave. If it
 comes to that, the guys with flashing lights and their parasites the
 press will almost certainly be involved.

 I recommend the Manual of U.S. Cave Rescue Techniques to any serious
 caver, perhaps to be read selectively. Some precautions are in order.
 Parts will appeal most to caves who were in the military and enjoyed it,
 the reader will frequently encounter more than just a whiff of lawyers,
 and anyone who knows that a patient should have their is not good
 English will be driven mad.
 -Bill Mixon


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Re: [Texascavers] trip report: Punkin Cave survey expedition #24

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Jim,

  I share your pain about recovering survey stations. I have been party to
several connections that relied on old stations, usually carbided, but
few people are equipped to mark such stations nowadays. As you pointed
out, flagging tape is obviously not secure due to mice, crickets, etc.
White-Out or nail polish seems to hold up well, but physical markers
like metal tags or stakes is best. Bolts or even just bolt holes are
also good, although the latter can be filled with mud after floods. It
will be interesting to see how connections made years or even decades
later are verified in the future.

  I also share your concern about retaining project members long enough to
preserve institutional memory. Not only are leads lost, but the route to
leads is also lost. Leads that are obscure or only marginally obvious
are especially difficult to relocate, since their significance may not
be apparent even after a resurvey. Long-term participation and detailed
survey notes and trip reports are key.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, August 20, 2015 6:08 pm, Crash Kennedy via Texascavers wrote:
 A couple of weeks ago Yaz decided to visit her family in San Luis Potosi­.
 I was between projects and had some time on my hands.  So I got the wild
 idea to head to Carta Valley for a week and survey as much of Punkin Cave
 as I could. I talked to Ben Hutchins, who said he and Carrie were
 interested, and he had some time available.  At the UT Grotto meeting I
 got a few more hits, so the expedition was on!

 David Ochel said he could make it for the first part of the week.  We
 both drove up Monday, got settled in to the cabin, worked on the outhouse
 for a bit, and planned our strategy for the next day.  On Tuesday 4
 August, David and I rigged the small entrance and were in the cave
 relatively early.  We headed directly to some leads I had left from my
 survey with Tone and Chains in June.  We quickly mopped up some leads,
 determined that a few more needed a little shaving, and moved some rocks
 so that I could retrieve the hammer I dropped in June.  We found several
 more good leads that need additional work.  We also mapped the Neglected
 Room that we (re-) found in June.  It had been previously discovered by
 ZA survey team (G. Schindel, A. Schindel, and A. Croskrey) in March 2014,
 but not surveyed.  We left a few hairy leads that were heading into blank
 spots on the map, since there were just two of us and we had no backup.
 All told, in 7 hours we made 19 shot for a total of 43.68m (or 2.30m per
 shot).  We got out in time for an awesome dinner, movie, and gin  tonics.

 The next day, Wednesday, David had to leave, so I had the place to myself
 until the next wave arrived that evening.  I worked on the outhouse some
 more, repaired the two broken benches, and generally tidied up the cabin.
 I took a nice walk, had a nap, and just generally read and relaxed.  After
 a while Ben, Carrie, and Hazel Hutchins arrived from San Marcos, bringing
 Ron Rutherford with them.  Dinner and drinks again ensued, and some more
 incredible stargazing tool place, before everyone  got settled into their
 respective rooms.

 Thursday morning, 6 August, dawned bright and early, as it is wont to do
 in August.  Ben, Ron, and I headed back to the Neglected Room to mop up
 some more remaining leads, while Carrie stayed cool in the cabin and
 watched Hazel.  We first went to a lead off QB2 that looked like it
 should connect to ZA8, which I enlarged on Tuesday.  Sure enough, we
 found the awkward climb, shot three shots, and tied in to the 2014
 station.  We were on a roll.  Next we mapped the obvious connection from
 ZA6 to our AF50 from Tuesday.  13 more meters in the bag.  I talked Ben
 into climbing up into a small lead that David and I passed on, and we got
 another 5m.  Meanwhile, Ron was working on some good breakdown leads at
 the edge of the known map, but couldn't quite make them go.  Ben and I
 mapped another short connection, QB6 to ZA5.  We then surveyed down into
 a big hall at the end of Matt and Saj's survey from June.  This room
 (Refrigerator Room) was super cold, with a very strong breeze blowing out
 of a too-tight hole through which we could see big blackness.  We'll have
 to come back with better tools, as this goes off the map in a very good
 direction.  One short side passage off the Refrigerator Room was
 completed, then we packed up and headed down to Windy City.  There, off
 of WM28, David and I found some unsurveyed leads that we tackled to
 finish out our day.  Ron got excluded from part of the passage, but we
 eventually mapped 24m in this area before everything got too tight.  When
 we got back and plotted out surveys, it was clear that we were heading
 south along the western flank of the cave, towards the Mortuary Room
 surveys.  Could we possibly attack it from that side as well?  We ended
 the 8-hour day after 36 shots, having put 79.43m in the survey book
 (2.21m per shot).

 On Friday 7 

Re: [Texascavers] Texas Caver

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Thanks, Jill. The PDF version of issue 2 works well, but the ePub
version is a repeat of issue 1. I tried changing the 01 to a 02 in the
URL link, but that didn't work either (404 error - Not Found).

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sun, August 9, 2015 8:53 pm, Jill Orr via Texascavers wrote:
 The newest edition of the Texas Caver is online

 jill orr

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Re: [Texascavers] Global Underwater Explorers

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  There's a difference between having standards for
performance/proficiency and mandating the type of equipment one uses. As
Fofo said, some expeditions require participants to pass a rebelay
course, but none that I've been on specify what type of vertical gear
you must use. As long as you pass the course in a safe and timely
manner, you're in. Rack or bobbin are equally popular. Some people use a
Mitchell on rebelays, even though the more common system by far is frog.
But certain body types don't function well with frog, and if you have
one of those, you learn an alternative.

  It is nice to be able to borrow equipment from team members, and one
should be at least somewhat familiar with different systems, but I would
balk at being told I had to have specific brands or types of gear.

Mark

On Wed, August 5, 2015 1:49 pm, Fofo via Texascavers wrote:
 Hi Bill.

 There is a little bit of this happening in caving too. On any given
 weekend the gear the type of gear that people take into a cave is very
 different, everyone has their personal preferences.

 But on expedition caving there is more uniformity in equipment. You
 don't see someone using a Mitchell system, another one with a Texas and
 someone else with a Frog. The way that people cross rebelays is more or
 less standardized, with some expeditions setting up mini courses outside
 of the cave to make sure that people are crossing rebelays in a safe and
 efficient way.

 That is more or less what GUE wants to do. So that any diver from any
 part of the world can meet with another GUE diver and she will be
 confident that if there is any need (for donating gas, for example) this
 other diver will react in a specific way and there should be no confusion.

 The standards are rather long, but it's more like having a book
 describing how to rig a rebelay and how to cross it so that a caver from
 Washington can team up with a caver from Argentina and move as a team
 knowing that they will be using the same kind of signals and same
 techniques (which make it easier to look at someone and know if
 something is off, instead of trying to figure out first what this other
 person is trying to do).

 Sorry for the long reply!

 - Fofo

 On 05/08/15 9:28, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:
 Sure, one would like to know that one's diving buddies are qualified and
 using equipment that is more or less familiar to you, so you can spot
 problems or help in an emergency; that is their argument. But it can be
 carried to extremes. See
 http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/standards
 and the link there to a nearly 100-page list of training and equipment
 standards. I suspect (hope) that many cave divers would not find that
 much regimentation congenial. For example, their equipment standard does
 not appear to permit side-mounts, which have come to be seen as pretty
 much essential for a lot of cave diving. (That standard may be sometimes
 honor'd in the breach.) Rebreather divers must use a GUE-approved
 rebreather.

 Global Underwater Explorers clearly consider themselves an elite bunch.
 Others may disagree, or if they agree (certainly they have some
 impressive accomplishments), be put off by it. -- Mixon

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[Texascavers] Bolt Hangers on Sale

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  For anyone interested in bolt hangers, Fixe is currently having a sale.
You can get 100 stainless steel 3/8 hangers for $195 plus shipping:
http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=67faa5c76154c98391524647aid=2635b16bbbe=5764f0b017.
I just ordered a batch.

Mark Minton



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Re: [Texascavers] TSA magazine

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Jill,

  The point is, we'd like a higher resolution version available as
standard PDF. The ePub version is not universally accessible at present.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sat, May 2, 2015 8:21 pm, Jacqueline Thomas via Texascavers wrote:
 All,
 On the webpage with links to the Texas Caver, the 3rd link down is to the
 .pdf version. It's a low resolution version, but it is the garden variety
 .pdf that most of us can access. Jacqui

 Jacqui Thomas
 jlrtho...@verizon.net

 On May 2, 2015, at 3:37 PM, via Texascavers wrote:

 While I support new technologies as they become appropriate to the
 members of TSA, I think we need to also supply the older PDF format of
 the Texas Caver for some time to come. The ePub format, for those not
 familiar with it, is an open E-book format made for readers. It is
 portable to many hardware readers, though not to Kindles apparently.

 Jerry.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 26, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Jill Orr via Texascavers
 texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:

 The current issue of the TSA magazine is available online. Issues were
 passed out at the TSA convention this past weekend and those not
 attending will be mailed or passed out at your grotto meeting if you
 regularly attend.

 image001.png

 jill orr
 graphic design
 210.931-4633
 jillorr.businesscatalyst.com

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Re: [Texascavers] Soak your rope?

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Frank, et al.

  Sorry for the late response. I've been in Huautla for the past three weeks.

  I was always of the pre-soak your rope camp myself, for exactly the
reasons stated. However when we recently inquired of PMI about that
practice, they recommended against it. PMI said that every time a rope
gets wet it loses some of its strength. That said, I think the
advantages of preshrinking may outweigh the slight loss of strength,
especially for a rope that may get wet repeatedly in a cave anyway. In
any event, I thought I'd share the official view.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

Thanks Chris, Jerry and Nancy for your quick and informative responses.
I’m a “pre-soak your rope” believer now!
-Frank Binney

From: Texas Cavers Texascavers@texascavers.com
Reply-To: Texas Cavers Texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 12:19 PM
To: Texas Cavers Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Soak your rope?

its a really good way to avoid having a long rope soak and shrink itself
on a cave trip as happened in Mexico when our brand new first drop rope
lost 10 % (as advertised)  of its length while we were cave camping. 
good news was that I headed out early, noticed how little rope was at
the bottom of drop and had Don B add a safety onto it.  scary news was:
that knot was 60 feet in the air when the rest came out.

nancy
On Apr 14, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Frank Binney via Texascavers
texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:

 Is soaking and drying a new caving rope prior to use now the recommended
 procedure?
I don’t remember this as a protocol from back in the day, but someone
suggested presoaking to a young caver friend out here who recently bought
1200 ft of static rope for a Golondrinas trip.
Perhaps it’s a way to pre-shrink and/or stiffen the rope for easier
ascending?
-Frank Binney

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Re: [Texascavers] TSA magazine

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Jill,

  Would you please post the current Texas Caver to the Members Area of the
TSA web site in ordinary PDF format at higher resolution? My computer
will not read the epub format; I always get an error when I try to open
Adobe Digital Editions (Windows XP). Thanks!

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sun, April 26, 2015 10:23 pm, Jill Orr via Texascavers wrote:
 The current issue of the TSA magazine is available online. Issues were
 passed out at the TSA convention this past weekend and those not attending
 will be mailed or passed out at your grotto meeting if you regularly
 attend.

 jill orr

 graphic design

 210.931-4633

 jillorr.businesscatalyst.com

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Re: [Texascavers] UT/USS Grotto meeting 4/1!

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Yvonne Droms and I plan to be at the meeting, or at least at the Posse
afterwards if our plane is delayed. We'll be passing through on our way
to Mexico (Huautla).

Mark Minton

On Sat, March 28, 2015 9:52 pm, Mimi Alexander via Texascavers wrote:
 Evening, cavers!

 At the grotto meeting this Wednesday, Ron Ralph will be talking about
 Seminole Canyon State Park and Historic Site, including discussion about
 the areas archaeology and the excavation of Seminole Sink!

 The meeting, hosted by the University Speleological Society, is at
 7:45pmin *Burdine
 136*. Follow this link to a map of where the building is located on the
 University of Texas campus:
 http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/bur.html

 For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
 www.utgrotto.org

 Officer contact, trip reports, event calendar, and new caver training
 links
 to beginner trips or vertical rope training are available.

 Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo  www.saopaulos.net  for
 happy hour specials. Attendance by cavers varies but this area is the best
 place to park and meet folks walking over to the meeting.  Then after the
 USS meeting, we continue with the decades long tradition to reconvene for
 burgers, beer, and tall tales of caving at Posse East.  www.posse-east.com

 Cheers,
 Mimi Alexander
 UT Grotto Vice Chair
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Re: [Texascavers] .rar file

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Bill,

  I can open it, as can probably anyone with a modern Windows computer
since .RAR is a Windows format. The files are compressed, so the opened
result will likely be larger, possibly much larger.

Mark

On Wed, March 18, 2015 12:15 pm, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:
 Someone in Mexico sent me an .rar file that I can't open. It is 4.1 MB.
 Can someone open it and convert to something else? I can e-mail it to you.
 -- Mixon

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Re: [Texascavers] Remembering Mr. Spock

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Ernie,

  You missed your opportunity to give the Vulcan salute and say, Live
long and prosper!

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Fri, February 27, 2015 3:23 pm, via Texascavers wrote:
 When the movie, Star Trek-the Motion Picture was filmed, I as working
 for Boss Films, a special effects studio in Los Angeles. There were two
 days of fliming close-ups of Mr. Spock, one scene where he had bright
 lights flashing at this face. I had been asked if I had any large
 flashbulbs they could use for the shoot, and I did. It was the remenants
 of flashbulbs and a reflector I had dragged through some of the caves in
 Cuetzalan, Mexico while doing some cave photography. There was a worry
 that some of the bulbs could be cracked, in which case they would explode
 when fired, but luckily, none of them did during the several takes it
 took to film it. I worked in the darkroon and there was a sliding door
 leading to the front office and a hallway. As I opened the door one day,
 I was startled to find Lenard Nimoy leaning against the wall smoking a
 cigarette; he was in costume with his pointy ears, and all I could think
 of saying was, Hi, I understand you are from Boston. How lame, but
 still a notable recollection.

--Ernie Garza

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[Texascavers] SubTropolis

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  There was a story on NPR's Market Place on Wednesday about an abandoned
limestone mine turned into an underground secure industrial park.
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/subtropolis-yeah-its-pretty-underground.
I'd heard of such places before, and in fact anyone who went to the NSS
Convention in Indiana in 2007 attended the photo salon and banquet in
such a facility. This one in Kansas City is apparently the largest in
the world. Full story at
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-02-04/welcome-to-subtropolis-the-business-complex-buried-under-kansas-city.

Mark

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Re: [Texascavers] mystery NSS News article

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Bill,

  If you read the entire article, you'll see in the second-to-last
paragraph it says, This is a work trip; anyone wishing to sign on for
any part of the time should contact me, John Bridges, Cascade Caverns,
Route 1 Box 57A, Boerne, Texas 78006...

So, the author must be John Bridges.

Mark

On Tue, February 24, 2015 1:06 pm, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:
 The October 1975 NSS News contains an article titled A Report on Las
 Grutas del Palmito (Bustamante). The article is unsigned; the first three
 paragraphs are copied below (from OCR of scan--excuse the errors). Anybody
 know who wrote that? I'm compiling a bibliography of Mexico items in the
 NSS News over the years. -- Mixon

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[Texascavers] International Exploration session announcement

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Speakers requested for the International Exploration session
2015 NSS Convention in Waynesville, MO
Deadline: April 15th, 2015

  Have you been caving outside of the United States?  Come share your
underground adventures in exotic lands with your fellow cavers.
The International Exploration Session at NSS Conventions
is one of the most well attended of all sessions.  It is a great venue
to present your new discoveries to a wide and appreciative audience.

  Please consider coming to the 2015 NSS Convention in Waynesville, MO.
this summer (July 13-17) and join our Session to show your stuff.
The International Exploration session takes place all day on Wednesday,
July 15 and provides 15 to 30 minutes for each presentation,
depending on the amount of material you have.

  Please submit an abstract of 250 words or less describing your
presentation to mminton at caver.net by April 15. Don't delay - this
session always fills up.  Submit early to assure your spot.

  Please feel free to distribute this message widely. See you in Missouri!

Mark Minton
mminton at caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] website of vertical devices

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Logan,

  Thanks for posting this link. Gary had his collection posted online for
several years, but took the pages down a few years ago. It's nice to see
them back up again. Thanks, Gary!

Mark

On Fri, February 13, 2015 12:36 pm, Logan McNatt via Texascavers wrote:
 Dr. Gary Storrick (NSS 12967FE, Michigan) has a website showing every
 type of vertical device (ascenders, descenders, belay, and
 miscellaneous) that he has been able to collect. Over 1900 items and
 constantly increasing. You will recognize many of them commonly used in
 caving. Many others are not familiar to cavers, and some are truly
 unique, imaginative, or downright bizarre. Check out the photos and
 other info:

 http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

 Thanks to Gary Storrick for creating this website, and to Bill Steele
 for telling me about it today.

 Logan McNatt (NSS 11274FE, Texas)
 lmcn...@austin.rr.com

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[Texascavers] Google Earth Pro

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Google Earth Pro is now free. Used to cost $399. See
http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2015/01/google-earth-pro-is-now-free.html.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Spelunking draws tourists to caverns in Mexican Gulf state

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  The story of Sotano de Tomasa Kiahua (caver spelling) is in AMCS
Activities Newsletter No. 12, p. 62-66 (1982), available for free
download at http://www.mexicancaves.org/nl/12.html.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, January 28, 2015 5:28 am, Jerry via Texascavers wrote:

 Tourism promotion in the Zongolica Sierra and the exploration of the
 region's deep caverns in the Mexican Gulf state of Veracruz will be part
 of the National Speleology Congress from Jan. 30 to Feb. 2, organizers
 said.

 The deepest cavern in the Zongolica region reaches 375 meters (1,230 feet)
 down in the Sotano de Tomasa Quiahua, a shaft named for a woman who fell
 in and whose remains were recovered years later by French explorers,
 according to local lore.

 Zongolica is known as the Himalaya of caverns due to its challenging
 shafts, many of which have yet to be explored, Pedro Pablo Cruz Cano, of
 the organizing committee, told Efe.

 Participants will study the Zongolica area in general, will discuss
 technical issues and examine the adoption of safety measures in caverns to
 have sustainable tourism and prevent impacts on phreatic mantles, he said.
 The goal is to show the general public the attraction caves have for
 visitors, Cruz said, referring to economic expectations in the region,
 one of Mexico's most marginalized areas.

 Currently, the Zongolica caves receive, on average, one group of visitors
 a month, and promoters hope to increase the number of spelunkers from
 Mexico and other countries. There is a need for promotion since there is
 one visit per month, and that's why we brought the Congress to Zongolica,
 to make it better known, Cruz said.

 Cruz acknowledged the paucity of infrastructure since the municipality is
 small and there are few hotels.
 Tourism and spelunking could benefit hotels, restaurants and the
 communities in cities like Orizaba and Cordoba, the main access routes to
 the Zongolica Sierra, he said.

 Cruz emphasized that speleologists working in the region have the
 equipment required to safely guide tourists through the intricate network
 of caves and rivers on the Zongolica. EFE

 http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2015/01/27/spelunking-draws-tourists-to-caverns-in-mexican-gulf-state/

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Re: [Texascavers] El Sotano del Barro jeep expedition

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Bill Mixon beat me to it. The coordinates for El Sotano are 21 18 39 N,
99 40 02 W. I had heard some years ago that there was a better way to
hike to El Sotano from a then-new road rather than the original route,
which started at the highway at the bottom of the mountain.
  It's too bad Google Earth has not yet incorporated overlays of Mexican
topo maps now that the latter are freely available on the web. US topo
map overlays have been available for several years.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sat, January 24, 2015 10:36 am, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:
 Google Earth shows a road to within 2.5 km of Sotano de El Barro. It
 branches off of one of apparently better quality (yellow line instead
 of white) that is within 3 km. No idea the condition of the roads,
 though. -- Mixon

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[Texascavers] Volcano in Colima, Mexico

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  A volcano in Colima, Mexico erupted on Wednesday. There is a cool video
of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHNQB8-mvQw. There are
also longer versions if you search for volcan Colima on YouTube.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Underground bike park in Kentucky's Mega Cavern

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I'd say even less impact than the mine in Indiana. There they drove
trucks and buses around underground. Presumably that doesn't happen as
much in a bike park. ;-)

Mark

 On Fri, January 23, 2015 1:56 am, Stephen Fleming via Texascavers wrote:
 Being an abandoned mine, no impacts at all and certainly nothing like
 the mine itself may have had.

 I'd say any potential for impacts would be about the same or less than
 the NSS had at the 2007 convention doing its photo salon and banquet in
 a limestone mine remade as a warehouse.

 Stephen

 On 01/22/2015 18:40, Linda Starr wrote:
 What will the developers think of next? More ways to make a buck off
 of remaking the environment. Sure, it's cool, but what about the
 impacts on the earth?
 Linda Starr


 On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Lee H. Skinner skin...@thuntek.net
 mailto:skin...@thuntek.net wrote:

  In a limestone mine: Phase 1 of 3 will have over 5 miles of bike trails.

  http://grist.org/list/this-new-underground-bike-park-totally-rules/

  Lee

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[Texascavers] Fish Under the Ice in Antarctica

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Not exactly caving, but certainly a remote and extreme environment. Fish
and other marine life have been observed in a small slice of liquid
water 740 meters below the ice in Antarctica:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/discovery-fish-live-beneath-antarctica1/.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] another reporter story

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

On Mon, January 19, 2015 12:57 pm, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:
 One of the more entertaining interviews has one TV
 reporter asking Ron Kerbo if the rescue personnel had enough food,
 water, and air. Kerbo just calmly assumed him that they did.

  That was Bryant Gumbel on the Today show. When that show was
broadcast, while we were still in Carlsbad, everyone groaned, especially
at the air comment.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Reporters

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Bill Mixon's comment reminds me of something that happened during Emily
Mobley's rescue at Lechuguilla in 1991. The place was a total zoo with
reporters running around at all hours of the day and night. (Including a
Japanese TV reporter doing a live broadcast from the parking lot at 2
a.m.) Ron Kerbo was run ragged, and when one reporter asked him a
particularly asinine question, he looked her in the eye and said,
Excuse me, ma'am, but you must have mistaken me for someone who gives a
shit! and walked off. It was priceless, but surely never made it into
print or on the air.

Mark

On Sun, January 18, 2015 10:01 pm, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:
 One of my fantasies is to somehow become newsworthy and have the
 opportunity to tell a reporter who is asking stupid or nosey (of
 course) questions to fuck off. Unfortunately live interviews are
 broadcast with delays.

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[Texascavers] Fun in Moab

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Fun in Moab:

http://www.redbull.com/us/en/adventure/stories/1331698545913/discover-the-pentagon-the-best-multi-line-slackline?wtk=us28linkId=11725551

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] reporters

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  My experience with reporters has generally been less accommodating than
George's. Most have not been willing to allow me to review their work
before publication. A couple of notable exceptions have been The New
Yorker and National Geographic, both of which seem to be very
conscientious about fact checking and getting things right.
Unfortunately even then inaccuracies manage to make their way into the
final piece. I suspect that George and others are right - the subject
may be so foreign that they don't really understand the implications of
their errors, or care. Sigh.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Sun, January 18, 2015 3:22 pm, George Veni via Texascavers wrote:

 ask to review the draft article for technical accuracy,

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Re: [Texascavers] NSS video salon question

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Mallory,

  The video you want is called Abigail's Underground and can be previewed
on the 2014 Video Salon page at
http://caves.org/committee/salons/Video_2014_Winners.shtml. A DVD can
be ordered here: https://caves.org/service/avlibrary/dvd_catalog.htm.
  I watched a bit of it during the Convention, but found it too bizarre to
follow and frankly, not very interesting. :-(

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, January 15, 2015 9:05 pm, Mallory Mayeux via Texascavers wrote:
 Hello cavers!

 Can anyone point me in the right direction on where to find NSS video salon
 entries? I was wondering if the NSS had any sort of online database of
 low-res video clips. I've found on their website where entrants can check
 off a box to give the NSS permission to publish their entries but not
 where they're actually published.

 Also, if anyone went to the NSS convention this past summer and remembers
 a particular video that I'm looking for--it featured a little Raggedy-Ann
 type doll trudging through a cave. I couldn't understand what the actors
 were saying, or what it was even about, but it was bizarre and hilarious
 and my life is better somehow for having seen it. I'm looking for it, hence
 my question. If anyone happens to remember anything about it, like who
 submitted it, their grotto affiliation or the name of the video, I'd so
 appreciate it.

 Thanks!

 Mallory Mayeux

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[Texascavers] Fwd: DistoX2s For Sale

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Attention surveyors:

  John Harman has been assembling Disto X2 digital survey instruments for
a few months now. These units are fantastic! They are waterproof (IP-65)
and contain a rechargeable lithium-polymer battery that reduces the need
for recalibration. (The first calibration is already done.) They are
also Bluetooth enabled so they can communicate directly with a PDA for
digital in-cave sketching. They are pricey, but so wonderful that I
think they are totally worth it. I've been using one for a couple of
months now and never looked back.

   Below is John's recent post from the NSS Cartography Facebook feed.

Mark

Surveyors - we just finished and shipped our most recent batch of DistoX2
units today. We've already received 3 orders for the next batch and will be
starting that build within the next couple weeks. If you'd like one of
these amazing instruments send me a private message on here, or e-mail to
jharm...@gmail.com.

The per unit cost is $615 + shipping. The way the process works is we send
you a purchase order form to fill out, which you return to us. We then
procure all the materials, assemble the unit, test it, and calibrate it.
Once the instrument is fully qualified and calibrated we send you an
invoice for the cost of the instrument plus shipping. You pay the invoice
and we ship the instrument.

We fully warrant the device against manufacturing defects and will repair
broken devices for a standard lab fee.

Please don't hesitate to contact me for more info. - John Harman

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Re: [Texascavers] some Boon info

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

   I have a story about Mike Boon and Caña. During the 1980 Polish rescue
in San Agustín (the one Boon wrote the booklet about that Bill Mixon
mentioned), Boon prepared a duffel bag to be sent down the cave for his
use when he was slated to go to camp a couple of days later. Whoever
was assigned to sherpa the duffel in picked it up and complained at the
weight. The caver opened the bag and right on top was a gallon plastic
jug of caña! He took it out and carried in the rest of the bag. When
Boon found out his caña had been left behind, he was pissed. You had
no right! he said.
   Boon definitely loved his caña. The above was especially ironic because
he was constantly berating people for carrying too much stuff. (Here's
a quote from his booklet, referring to Bill Liebman: He was carrying
an enormous bag, because wherever Americans go they always carry
enormous bags; no one's ever been able to determine what's in 'em yet.
Apparently it wasn't caña...) Boon himself carried so little that he
was constantly borrowing things and bumming food and carbide from our
enormous bags.

   To answer Preston, J. M. Boon is John Michael Boon.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Tue, December 23, 2014 12:12 pm, Ernie Garza wrote:
 Mike must have celebrated
 that evening with his favorite drink, Cana, a powerful sugar cane
 distilate mixed with Tang. But when he did that, look out, for one never
 knew what could happen next!

 Ernie Garza

On Tue, December 23, 2014 6:01 pm, Preston Forsythe wrote:
 JM Boon was a real character and his book on free diving sump after sump
 was either madness or cutting edge. RIP..By the way what was Mike's first
 namePreston in KY

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[Texascavers] New Bat Echolocation Strategy

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Some old-world fruit bats that do not echolocate by vocalizations can
nevertheless perform crude echolocation by clicking their wings. See
article in Current Biology (subscription only):
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2814%2901425-0.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Cloud Room

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

   How about Pasaje Superior? There is a Pasaje Superior and Pasaje
Inferior in Sótano de La Joya de Salas.

Mark
mmin...@caver.net

On Fri, December 19, 2014 2:17 pm, Nico Escamilla via Texascavers wrote:
 Gill, I just posted a picture of the formations on your fb wall, and
 corredor would be the right word, I'd use pasillo to describe some part of
 a house

 El dic 19, 2014 12:08 PM, Gill Ediger via Texascavers
 texascavers@texascavers.com escribió:

 I just consulted my paper copy of the map and notice that  I'd penciled in
 above the title 'Birthday Passage' the name 'Corredor Superior', which to
 me meant 'Upper Passage' at the time. I've come to discover that the word
 'corredor' isn't usually used that way in Spanish. The proper term should
 probably be 'pasillo'. Eh, Nico?
 --Ediger

   On Friday, December 19, 2014 11:25 AM, Gill Ediger gi...@att.net
wrote:

 I'm not familiar with the name Cloud Room and don't have account access
 to the photo sent with your post, Nico. Can somebody snag that pic and
post
 it in the clear? I will try to compare it to any photos I might have. I
 think I shot all those in BW so may not have them readily to hand. We had
 a room called the Snow Room which was just about the first feature on
the
 right after going through the access crawlway from the balcony into the
 BDP. There were some rather large mammiform formations toward the back of
 the passage--developed underwater--which might be construed as clouds.
 The quoted statement, the speleothems found in that newly found part of
 the cave  seems to not be referencing their 'discovery' of the passage
 but simply a term to indicate that it was discovered more recently than
the
 main part of the cave, as if citing something called the New
Discovery 40
 years after its discovery. It has to be blatantly obvious to anyone
 visiting the BDP that it has had plenty of cavers exploring it and
 leaving foot prints in the mud and mud streaks all over the formations.
 When I first climbed up to the balcony in ~1969 there was already a set of
 footprints in the mud. But the crawlway leading to the rest of the BDP
 had not been violated, being on the floor and under a low ledge and not at
 all obvious. Whoever had preceded me had not bent over far enough to see
 it. After some time (months or years) I heard of a trip by TR Evans, Terry
 Raines, and another on which one of them (Terry, I think) had climbed up
 to the balcony but found no going passage.
 --Ediger

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Re: [Texascavers] Cloud Room

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

Nico,

   I think you're right. The photo looks like something in the Birthday
Passage, known for 30 years or more to Texans. It's a sporting and
exposed climb to get up there, so maybe the coahuilense thought it
hadn't been done. Hopefully they won't get credit for long, once
someone points out the true history of the cave.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, December 17, 2014 10:00 pm, Nico Escamilla via Texascavers wrote:
 While browsing the news today I found an article on the El Norte website
 about in Grutas del Palmito aka Bustamante, said article talks about the
 new discoveries made in the cave by members of the asociacion coahuilense
 de espeleologia, or aceac using a drone to film upper levels of the cave
 and mentioned the uniqueness of the speleothems found in that newly found
 part of the cave

 The reason why Im using quotes is because the article features a prominent
 picture of the Cloud Room, and correct me if Im wrong but, hasnt that part
 of the cave been explored for decades? Heck, I was even there almost 10
 years ago

 Looks like someone is taking undeserved credit here..

 link to the article Descubren nuevos salones en grutas Félix Barrón
 Monterrey, México (17 diciembre 2014).- Una investigación realizada
 recientemente por especialistas de la Asociación Coahuilense de
 Espeleologí­a en las Grutas de Bustamante descubrió nuevos salones con
 formaciones únicas en el País. A través de un dron, que captó
 imágenes en
 la parte superior de las grutas, exploradas hasta ahora en un 10 por
 ciento, reveló espeleotemas que comprueban la antigüedad de la
 formación y
 su importancia. Tiene todo tipo de espeleotemas registrados, espeleotemas
 únicos en México y al aparecer en Latinoamérica, expresó en rueda de
 prensa Ana Gabriela Morales, presidenta de la Asociación Coahuilense de
 Espeleología. Leer más:
 http://www.elnorte.com/aplicacioneslibre/preacceso/articulo/default.aspx?id=421027v=5urlredirect=http://www.elnorte.com/aplicaciones/articulo/default.aspx?id=421027v=5#ixzz3MDGsMFIL
 but its by subscription only

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Re: [Texascavers] Cloud Room

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Just found the Texas Caver article about the Birthday Passage in Palmito
(Bustamante), complete with map, thanks to Bill Mixon's list of Mexico
items in TC at http://www.mexicancaves.org/library/TCbiblio.html. It
was the January, 1970 issue, so it's been known for about 45 years.
There's nothing on the map called the Cloud Room, although there is a
Grapefruit Room. That's likely too far back for a drone to have reached,
though. It's been too long since I was there to remember where else such
formations might have been visible.

Mark
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, December 18, 2014 12:59 pm, Mark Minton via Texascavers wrote:
 Nico,

I think you're right. The photo looks like something in the Birthday
 Passage, known for 30 years or more to Texans. It's a sporting and
 exposed climb to get up there, so maybe the coahuilense thought it
 hadn't been done. Hopefully they won't get credit for long, once
 someone points out the true history of the cave.

 Mark Minton
 mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, December 17, 2014 10:00 pm, Nico Escamilla via Texascavers wrote:
 While browsing the news today I found an article on the El Norte website
 about in Grutas del Palmito aka Bustamante, said article talks about the
 new discoveries made in the cave by members of the asociacion
coahuilense
 de espeleologia, or aceac using a drone to film upper levels of the cave
 and mentioned the uniqueness of the speleothems found in that newly found
 part of the cave

 The reason why Im using quotes is because the article features a prominent
 picture of the Cloud Room, and correct me if Im wrong but, hasnt that part
 of the cave been explored for decades? Heck, I was even there almost 10
 years ago

 Looks like someone is taking undeserved credit here..

 link to the article Descubren nuevos salones en grutas Félix Barrón
 Monterrey, México (17 diciembre 2014).- Una investigación realizada
 recientemente por especialistas de la Asociación Coahuilense de
 Espeleologí­a en las Grutas de Bustamante descubrió nuevos salones con
 formaciones únicas en el País. A través de un dron, que captó
 imágenes en
 la parte superior de las grutas, exploradas hasta ahora en un 10 por
 ciento, reveló espeleotemas que comprueban la antigüedad de la
 formación y
 su importancia. Tiene todo tipo de espeleotemas registrados, espeleotemas
 únicos en México y al aparecer en Latinoamérica, expresó en rueda de
 prensa Ana Gabriela Morales, presidenta de la Asociación Coahuilense de
 Espeleología. Leer más:
 http://www.elnorte.com/aplicacioneslibre/preacceso/articulo/default.aspx?id=421027v=5urlredirect=http://www.elnorte.com/aplicaciones/articulo/default.aspx?id=421027v=5#ixzz3MDGsMFIL
 but its by subscription only

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[Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

George,

   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
Maybe they should be put into a special members only area where NSS
members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
looks like it might have been for naught. :-(

Mark

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