[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Daniel Fjerstad]

DavidRowe, that's awesome! I'm glad it's working out for you.

One thing I might suggest is to try out the Moon Tester extension. It will 
allow you to install SDK extensions. Many of them work out of the box, 
including TiddlyFox 2.0.1. You can find that extension here: 
https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/moon-tester-tool/

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 10:10:08 AM UTC-5, DavidRowe Wtl wrote:
>
> I have downloaded and installed Pale Moon latest version 27.5.0 64bit 
> Windows.  I then installed TiddlyFox extension for Firefox Version 
> 1.0alpha18.1-signed.1-signed Released September 14, 2013 17.5 KiB Works 
> with Firefox for Android 11.0 - 51.*, Firefox 3.5 - 51.* 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/versions/.  The 
> tiddler menu 'save changes' link works exactly like it used to, before the 
> cat version, great.  FF V57 problem solved.
>
> Note the tiddly cat V2 product does not install due to reported use of 
> Jetpack/SDK. Pale Moon offers an unsupported forced install but I had no 
> reason to try that.  I will if some one can tell me what advantage I would 
> have in using it.
>
> I actually feel happier about having a browser just for maintaining my 
> TiddlyWiki's.
>
> I have spent two days generally using Pale Moon and installed other 
> extensions (e.g. ScrapBook) which I can't live without and it works 
> extremely well (not a single failure or rendering issue I noticed).  
>
> 'AdBlock Latitude' (the result of some spat I don't understand the details 
> of between the developers - 
> https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1=6612) worked well too, so 
> I feel quite well set up and sorted.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 21:52:15 UTC+1, Daniel Fjerstad wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been lurking around these pages for a while. Today I've read a few 
>> posts where people are discussing what to do after Firefox discontinues XUL 
>> extensions. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the solution I plan on 
>> using, so I thought I'd share.
>>
>> Pale Moon is a fork of Firefox -- not just a shallow fork, but a true 
>> fork that hasn't shared the same code-base as Firefox for years now. When 
>> Firefox switches over to WebExtensions, it's my understanding that Pale 
>> Moon will be the ONLY browser left on the market with true extensibility; 
>> Other psuedo-forks (Waterfox, Cyberfox, etc) aren't true forks and they 
>> won't be able to fully diverge from Firefox's upstream, due to lack of 
>> skills or resources (IMHO).
>>
>> Pale Moon still works perfectly with many, many Firefox add-ons and will 
>> continue to do so. This includes TiddlyFox!
>>
>> I've used the Moon Tester extension to install TiddlyFox 2.0.1 on 
>> multiple computers, both Windows and Linux. It works perfectly and I don't 
>> see any reason why it won't continue to work perfectly. 
>>
>> I think TiddlyWiki maintainers should at least *mention* the fact that 
>> one can continue to use TiddlyFox+Pale Moon with no problems for the 
>> foreseeable future.
>>
>> In any case, I hope this helps someone!
>>
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[DavidRowe Wtl]

I have downloaded and installed Pale Moon latest version 27.5.0 64bit 
Windows.  I then installed TiddlyFox extension for Firefox Version 
1.0alpha18.1-signed.1-signed Released September 14, 2013 17.5 KiB Works 
with Firefox for Android 11.0 - 51.*, Firefox 3.5 - 51.* 
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/versions/.  The 
tiddler menu 'save changes' link works exactly like it used to, before the 
cat version, great.  FF V57 problem solved.

Note the tiddly cat V2 product does not install due to reported use of 
Jetpack/SDK. Pale Moon offers an unsupported forced install but I had no 
reason to try that.  I will if some one can tell me what advantage I would 
have in using it.

I actually feel happier about having a browser just for maintaining my 
TiddlyWiki's.

I have spent two days generally using Pale Moon and installed other 
extensions (e.g. ScrapBook) which I can't live without and it works 
extremely well (not a single failure or rendering issue I noticed).  

'AdBlock Latitude' (the result of some spat I don't understand the details 
of between the developers - 
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1=6612) worked well too, so I 
feel quite well set up and sorted.



On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 21:52:15 UTC+1, Daniel Fjerstad wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been lurking around these pages for a while. Today I've read a few 
> posts where people are discussing what to do after Firefox discontinues XUL 
> extensions. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the solution I plan on 
> using, so I thought I'd share.
>
> Pale Moon is a fork of Firefox -- not just a shallow fork, but a true fork 
> that hasn't shared the same code-base as Firefox for years now. When 
> Firefox switches over to WebExtensions, it's my understanding that Pale 
> Moon will be the ONLY browser left on the market with true extensibility; 
> Other psuedo-forks (Waterfox, Cyberfox, etc) aren't true forks and they 
> won't be able to fully diverge from Firefox's upstream, due to lack of 
> skills or resources (IMHO).
>
> Pale Moon still works perfectly with many, many Firefox add-ons and will 
> continue to do so. This includes TiddlyFox!
>
> I've used the Moon Tester extension to install TiddlyFox 2.0.1 on multiple 
> computers, both Windows and Linux. It works perfectly and I don't see any 
> reason why it won't continue to work perfectly. 
>
> I think TiddlyWiki maintainers should at least *mention* the fact that one 
> can continue to use TiddlyFox+Pale Moon with no problems for the 
> foreseeable future.
>
> In any case, I hope this helps someone!
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Riz]

That is a neat trick. My previous unsuccessful attempts in this line 
included adding access keys to specific tiddlers to navigate to those 
tiddlers easily. Unfortunately that did not work out. Again, neat trick. 





>>
>> Sure thing. I simply added the logic to implement the accesskey attribute 
>> into the $:/core/modules/widgets/button.js tiddler. You can see a copy of 
>> that here: https://pastebin.com/0rEA3aYZ
>>
>> Then to use it, all you do is modify the (save) button widget call to 
>> include the accesskey attribute with a value corresponding to the key you 
>> wish to be associated with that button. In my case I added accesskey="s" to 
>> the $button widget call in $:/core/ui/Buttons/save-wiki tiddler. You can 
>> see a copy of that here: https://pastebin.com/wbut1Ztz
>>
>> Then you press Alt+Shift+S or Alt+S depending on your browser. See here: 
>> https://www.w3schools.com/tags/att_global_accesskey.asp
>>
>> PS, I found the idea behind this solution on this forum, I think it might 
>> have been Eric Schulman's idea originally.
>>
>>
>>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Daniel Fjerstad]

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 11:19:38 AM UTC-5, Mark S. wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-7, Daniel Fjerstad wrote:
>>
>>
>> Mark S.:
>>
>> >I prefer to be in charge of when the data gets saved. It would be really 
>> nice if TW had a "save" key stroke for the save action, though.
>>
>> I have found a workaround for the fact that there isn't a "Save 
>> Tiddlywiki" shortcut key: I modified $:/core/modules/widgets/button.js to 
>> implement an "accesskey" option.  The "accesskey" property is something 
>> implemented by every browser for buttons, and is usually triggered by 
>> pressing Ctrl-Shift or Alt-Shift and the access key. I can show you my 
>> implementation if you would like.
>>
>>
> Oh yes! Please share! It sounds interesting.
>
> Mark
>

Sure thing. I simply added the logic to implement the accesskey attribute 
into the $:/core/modules/widgets/button.js tiddler. You can see a copy of 
that here: https://pastebin.com/0rEA3aYZ

Then to use it, all you do is modify the (save) button widget call to 
include the accesskey attribute with a value corresponding to the key you 
wish to be associated with that button. In my case I added accesskey="s" to 
the $button widget call in $:/core/ui/Buttons/save-wiki tiddler. You can 
see a copy of that here: https://pastebin.com/wbut1Ztz

Then you press Alt+Shift+S or Alt+S depending on your browser. See here: 
https://www.w3schools.com/tags/att_global_accesskey.asp

PS, I found the idea behind this solution on this forum, I think it might 
have been Eric Schulman's idea originally.


 

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Daniel 

TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>> Pale Moon is largely perceived as a peripheral experiment.
>>
>
Daniel Fjerstad wrote:

> Perception or not, it's an incredibly secure browser that faithfully 
> implements open web standards. What you present is a classic chicken and 
> egg problem: Pale Moon won't get widespread use until it's perceived as 
> being a valid option, and it won't be perceived as a valid option until it 
> has widespread use. 
>

Agreed. As I mentioned, in both this and another thread, part of the issue 
with TW in FF is NOT just TiddlyWiki. It is other extensions too. I don't 
use FF just for TW. I use it as a universal client. So a lot of the issue 
is around having TW work AND other extensions into the future. Pale Moon 
could answer that--maybe. I seriously suspect *narrow focus on TW in 
discussion of saving, as if it were the ONLY thing you did in Firefox, is 
somewhat over-simplifying the real problems for many users of FF*.

Right now I will stick with FF ES--as it works--and will till spring next. 

Come the end of ESR I may look more closely at Pale Moon. I did try it 
before and have to say it was more problematic than standard FF of the time.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-7, Daniel Fjerstad wrote:
>
>
> Mark S.:
>
> >I prefer to be in charge of when the data gets saved. It would be really 
> nice if TW had a "save" key stroke for the save action, though.
>
> I have found a workaround for the fact that there isn't a "Save 
> Tiddlywiki" shortcut key: I modified $:/core/modules/widgets/button.js to 
> implement an "accesskey" option.  The "accesskey" property is something 
> implemented by every browser for buttons, and is usually triggered by 
> pressing Ctrl-Shift or Alt-Shift and the access key. I can show you my 
> implementation if you would like.
>
>
Oh yes! Please share! It sounds interesting.

Mark

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Re: [tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Arlen 

Arlen Beiler wrote:First of all, TiddlyChrome still works. 
https://github.com/Arlen22/tiddly-chrome-app

My apologies Arlen for not including TiddlyChrome on the list I suggested 
earlier. I revised it as below.

Do you know when it will stop working? My understanding is Chrome will 
retire the older style app method TiddlyChrome uses sometime early-ish next 
year? But I can't find an exact date anywhere.

---

You can save TiddlyWiki many ways using ...

- TiddlyServer by Arlen & Mac package by RichardWS (*looks near universal 
and proven*)

- Local WebDav (still emerging, but looking workable).

- TiddlyDesktop (needs updating) [added tx to post by Eneko]

- TiddlyChrome extension (??may cease to work spring next year??) [added tx 
to post by Arlen]

- Beaker Browser (experimental, Mac only at the moment)

- Pale Moon Browser (??needs wider testing??) [added tx to post by Daniel 
Fjerstad]

- Default Saver Tricks (thanks to Mark S., more likely to follow)

- Noteself (a different approach that uses browser storage, not a TW file, 
& *will continue to work in FF*)

- Other methods

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Daniel Fjerstad]

Some interesting replies in this thread. Thanks for the input, everyone.

TiddlyTweeter:

>Pale Moon is largely perceived as a peripheral experiment.

Perception or not, it's an incredibly secure browser that faithfully 
implements open web standards. What you present is a classic chicken and 
egg problem: Pale Moon won't get widespread use until it's perceived as 
being a valid option, and it won't be perceived as a valid option until it 
has widespread use. 

Eneko Gotzon:

>​About the falling of TiddlyFox, TiddlyDesktop is not a good choice​?

Personally, I don't like TiddlyDesktop because I don't want to have to have 
a separate application purely for TiddlyWiki. While it's a valid option in 
a pinch, when I think about optimizing my workflow, that doesn't include a 
separate web browser just for TiddlyWiki. For that reason it's not a 'real' 
option in my mind.

Mark S.:

>I prefer to be in charge of when the data gets saved. It would be really 
nice if TW had a "save" key stroke for the save action, though.

I have found a workaround for the fact that there isn't a "Save Tiddlywiki" 
shortcut key: I modified $:/core/modules/widgets/button.js to implement an 
"accesskey" option.  The "accesskey" property is something implemented by 
every browser for buttons, and is usually triggered by pressing Ctrl-Shift 
or Alt-Shift and the access key. I can show you my implementation if you 
would like.

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 3:52:15 PM UTC-5, Daniel Fjerstad wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been lurking around these pages for a while. Today I've read a few 
> posts where people are discussing what to do after Firefox discontinues XUL 
> extensions. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the solution I plan on 
> using, so I thought I'd share.
>
> Pale Moon is a fork of Firefox -- not just a shallow fork, but a true fork 
> that hasn't shared the same code-base as Firefox for years now. When 
> Firefox switches over to WebExtensions, it's my understanding that Pale 
> Moon will be the ONLY browser left on the market with true extensibility; 
> Other psuedo-forks (Waterfox, Cyberfox, etc) aren't true forks and they 
> won't be able to fully diverge from Firefox's upstream, due to lack of 
> skills or resources (IMHO).
>
> Pale Moon still works perfectly with many, many Firefox add-ons and will 
> continue to do so. This includes TiddlyFox!
>
> I've used the Moon Tester extension to install TiddlyFox 2.0.1 on multiple 
> computers, both Windows and Linux. It works perfectly and I don't see any 
> reason why it won't continue to work perfectly. 
>
> I think TiddlyWiki maintainers should at least *mention* the fact that one 
> can continue to use TiddlyFox+Pale Moon with no problems for the 
> foreseeable future.
>
> In any case, I hope this helps someone!
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[TonyM]

Richard,

Sadly Firefox just terminated loosing the response I had already written 
for you, I have noticed this happen after updates to V56 and is really sad 
when you have not saved your tiddlywiki, one thing in favor of autosave 
inside browsers that is for sure.

I am all for TiddlyServer, the last time I used it it was not so strait 
forward, especially for new users, I will revisit it soon,

If you use the approach I am considering you only have to;
1. Start the tool running (In Startup)
2. Configure the location where you want the tiddlywiki to live outside the 
downloads folder

The browser and file manager access should remain the same. Backups and 
cloning can be supported and people can use there file manger 

I must suggest that I do not think this over complicating at all, Firstly 
here I was responding to the Question/Suggestion by Riz.
Even without the "centennial" process running this is a workable solution 
for some. Riz has identified an OS level way to deal with enforced 
downloads.

Perhaps you cant visualize what I have, including the ability to pack such 
a tool inside TiddlyWiki itself. It need not be complicated as you observe. 
The Possibilities have being only just being identified.

I am always open to constructive criticism, however with respect please be 
careful not to "Dis" a process of exploration, its at the end of our 
journey when we can determine the best solutions, to deal with the save 
problem.

Yours Sincerely
Tony


On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 11:39:46 AM UTC+11, RichardWilliamSmith 
wrote:
>
> "an "always running batch file" can be used to monitor the download folder 
>> and copy updated files to another location if required. You have now made 
>> me think what if the batch-file instead updated the symlink? I am thinking 
>> each time you save an active batch file or windows service renames the 
>> saved file as a new version, updates the symlink on the "symbolic file" 
>> (outside the downloads folder) to the new version filename but retaining 
>> the original name. Next time you save all you have to do is select save in 
>> the dialogue, there is no overwrite prompt as you have removed the original 
>> file."
>
>
> If you use Tiddlyserver there are only two real differences to what you're 
> used to:
>
> 1. You have to start Tiddlyserver
> 2. You navigate to, and open, your wikis using the browser instead of your 
> file-system finder/explorer
>
> Apart from that, it's a complete replacement and offers other features 
> besides, such as backups.
>
> I think you're in danger of seriously over-complicating things in order to 
> avoid the second step. Is there a *really* compelling reason to do so?
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[TonyM]

Mark, 

Mark, Please explain further the workflow you are talking about.

When you save the file (because you had a lot of changes) how do you avoid 
the Download Folder select, overwrite step given it appears this will be 
the only default mechanism.

Have you done a test run to see it working?

Tony

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[RichardWilliamSmith]

>
> "an "always running batch file" can be used to monitor the download folder 
> and copy updated files to another location if required. You have now made 
> me think what if the batch-file instead updated the symlink? I am thinking 
> each time you save an active batch file or windows service renames the 
> saved file as a new version, updates the symlink on the "symbolic file" 
> (outside the downloads folder) to the new version filename but retaining 
> the original name. Next time you save all you have to do is select save in 
> the dialogue, there is no overwrite prompt as you have removed the original 
> file."


If you use Tiddlyserver there are only two real differences to what you're 
used to:

1. You have to start Tiddlyserver
2. You navigate to, and open, your wikis using the browser instead of your 
file-system finder/explorer

Apart from that, it's a complete replacement and offers other features 
besides, such as backups.

I think you're in danger of seriously over-complicating things in order to 
avoid the second step. Is there a *really* compelling reason to do so?

Regards,
Richard

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

As I keep trying to point out, you don't need a continuously running 
*anything*. All you need is a start up script that copies your latest file 
in the download directory to your working directory, and then launches the 
TW file in the browser. For the rest of your session it's just like working 
under TiddlyFox, except that auto-save isn't available.

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 5:20:47 PM UTC-7, TonyM wrote:
>
> Riz,
>
> As I have posted previously an "always running batch file" can be used to 
> monitor the download folder and copy updated files to another location if 
> required. You have now made me think what if the batch-file instead updated 
> the 
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[TonyM]

Riz,

I am using FireFox ESR *(Without invoking tiddlyFox on my test wiki)* but 
Will try the latest FF shortly. 

On Windows 10 I just used the MKLINK in a Run as Administrator command 
Prompt to create a symbolic link where a file stored in the download 
directory has a symbolic link in another folder. The TW5 can be opened from 
either location and using the save (download) mechanism, with save set as 
default for this filetype, you have to indicate the save filename (Folder 
if you have the setting to allow folder selection) but the default is 
usually enough, you then have to respond to the overwrite file prompt. 

Then reloading from either file location the download and the link, will 
show the updated tiddlywiki.

If you have a fixed download folder this should allow you to access your 
tiddlywiki in any folder but always save/via download to the download 
folder (The filename is retained)

As I have posted previously an "always running batch file" can be used to 
monitor the download folder and copy updated files to another location if 
required. You have now made me think what if the batch-file instead updated 
the symlink? I am thinking each time you save an active batch file or 
windows service renames the saved file as a new version, updates the 
symlink on the "symbolic file" (outside the downloads folder) to the new 
version filename but retaining the original name. Next time you save all 
you have to do is select save in the dialogue, there is no overwrite prompt 
as you have removed the original file.

I have given the above scenario a test and it works well (manually) Its key 
advantage is 

   - you can maintain previous versions and simplify the download process.

 Its disadvantages are

   - Autosave is not built in or would cause interruptions to your work 
   flow, 
   - We need to develop an easy to use OS Specific Tool


The truth is if you just allow FF to select download folders, create a 
sub-folder in downloads called  tiddlywiki and save all your wikis there 
using symlinks is not much different.

Food for thought
Tony


On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 5:39:04 AM UTC+11, Riz wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 22:34:35 UTC+5:30, Rob Hoelz wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> That being said, I was looking through the Web Extensions APIs, and it 
>> looks like the downloads API 
>>  
>> could potentially be used to implement some of TiddlyFox's functionality.  
>> It means you would need to keep your tiddlywiki.html file under your 
>> Downloads folder, but it's better than nothing.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>
>
> This is what I was thinking. Have anyone tried to workaround the 
> limitation of Downloads folder? As in, via symlinks? What I meant to say 
> is, if I decide to keep all my TWs in a single folder, and that folder has 
> a symlink in Downloads folder, can Tiddlyfox continue saving?. It would be 
> a hack, but it would be better than nothing.
>
> I have switched my Knowledgebase to TiddlyServer already. However, with 
> all its benefits, it has some comfortable features missing. For example 
> with tiddlyfox I can just download an empty wiki, open it and test 
> something, save it and when done with its use, discard it without a second 
> thought. With TiddlyServer, I have to ensure I add it to the settings 
> files, restart the server and finally remove it when done, or restrict 
> myself to the same path. I hope Arlen would someday look into a feature by 
> which all files in a particular folder is loaded as standalone TW, so we 
> can put the empty file in that folder. Until then, I would miss TFox.
>
>
>
>  
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[TonyM]

Folks,

I think this is an example of the tail wagging the dog, in this case 
security or even only the "perception of security". These changes undermine 
the meaning of the universal client - the browser and don't just handicap 
tiddlywiki users. Any use of HTML and other webpage services locally are at 
risk.

To disenfranchise a large number of plugins and their developers is also a 
risky step.

I assert the problem is also one of creativity. There is no reason why a 
lock and key method could not be used to permit or white list files or 
folders for update access, this could also require separate and independent 
applications and settings on the client OS or plugins not unlike TiddlyFox 
which are required to be installed before such assess (with restrictions) 
is possible. This can even use local administrative to secure and control 
such access.

My Prediction is FireFox will be damaged by this and rather than 
progressing they will be forced to back-peddle, and it will take a few 
generations before appropriate solutions are made available.

Argggh
Tony

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Re: [tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Arlen Beiler]

First of all, TiddlyChrome still works.

https://github.com/Arlen22/tiddly-chrome-app

And are we at Firefox 57 yet in mainstream? I don't think we are yet.

So we are still getting there, basically because it hasn't actually
happened yet. We're getting close and we're getting ready.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Rob Hoelz  wrote:

> HOW do you guide a newbie now? I think its THAT issue that concerns  me
>> most.
>>
>
> Fair point - I don't have an answer for that.  Either way, it is, sadly,
> the end of an era.
>
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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Rob

Indeed ...

Rob Hoelz wrote: 
... the horses have left the barn on this issue.

... so in some ways there is nothing to say as its a *fiat-acompli*. Like 
it or lump it.

However, for Tiddlywiki, I think it has some bearing.

Currently our model of the basic thing is TW "a web-page you can save". 
That is looking under strain. 

HOW do you guide a newbie now? I think its THAT issue that concerns  me 
most. 

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Lost Admin

I think you hit a point with this of lasting relevance.

Lost Admin wrote:
... I, like many of you, thought it was a strength even if it did require 
more diligence on my part...

Users do get aware--so long as they are not cosseted--they need take 
responsibility. 

The problem for TW is we are about to LOSE A PLATFORM. That is is much 
worse than learning basic net caution IMO.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Riz]

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 22:34:35 UTC+5:30, Rob Hoelz wrote:
>
>
>
> That being said, I was looking through the Web Extensions APIs, and it 
> looks like the downloads API 
>  
> could potentially be used to implement some of TiddlyFox's functionality.  
> It means you would need to keep your tiddlywiki.html file under your 
> Downloads folder, but it's better than nothing.
>
> -Rob
>


This is what I was thinking. Have anyone tried to workaround the limitation 
of Downloads folder? As in, via symlinks? What I meant to say is, if I 
decide to keep all my TWs in a single folder, and that folder has a symlink 
in Downloads folder, can Tiddlyfox continue saving?. It would be a hack, 
but it would be better than nothing.

I have switched my Knowledgebase to TiddlyServer already. However, with all 
its benefits, it has some comfortable features missing. For example with 
tiddlyfox I can just download an empty wiki, open it and test something, 
save it and when done with its use, discard it without a second thought. 
With TiddlyServer, I have to ensure I add it to the settings files, restart 
the server and finally remove it when done, or restrict myself to the same 
path. I hope Arlen would someday look into a feature by which all files in 
a particular folder is loaded as standalone TW, so we can put the empty 
file in that folder. Until then, I would miss TFox.



 

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Lost Admin]

It's not "vaguely possible sometime hack". it's definitely possible 
sometimes hack. Although to my knowledge the sometimes has turned out to be 
extremely rare. So, you do have a point.

By modern web browser security standards, the old method is far too open 
with the potential for abuse. Since I suspect Mozilla (they still manage 
Firefox don't they) doesn't want to have to police the add-in library as 
heavily as Apple polices the IOS marketplace, they decided to remove the 
openness of the way extensions work.

The threat is simple, although pretty much unrealized. The architecture of 
XUL pretty much gave the extension developers full access to your computer. 
Which means you have to trust them to write good code. The folks that 
manage the Firefox add-ons website will get a lot of flack if they let an 
extension in that turns out to be a back door into consumer desktops.

Instead of trying to wrap a sandbox around the XUL system, they decided to 
replace it with a more modern and limited framework.

Note: I am not supporting the decision, only providing a bit more context 
behind why they might have decided to go this way. I actually like the 
openness of the old way. I, like many of you, thought it was a strength 
even if it did require more diligence on my part.

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 1:39:41 PM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao Rob
>
> I do understand the concern. But it was pretty much a concern without 
> proven foundation. 
>
> I NEVER, in years, had any problem. AND there is NOTHING I have ever seen 
> that indicates the FF extension system was seriously abused. 
>
> It seems to me that legitimate paranoia got mixed up with "vaguely 
> possible sometime hack". IMO there is a larger story going on beyond basic 
> web security about "Memes Of Modern Thought" that posit threats where they 
> don't, pragmatically, function.
>
> Anyway, its a done deal. AND the issue is WebExtensions at the moment, are 
> no way capable of replacing the previous saving system. 
>
> With TW that's an issue, but not fatal, with many other extensions it is 
> death.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
> Rob Hoelz wrote:
>>
>> I can see where RichardWilliamSmith is coming from - I think Mozilla 
>> realized just how *dangerous *it is for extensions from third party 
>> developers to have unfettered access to various OS services such as files, 
>> especially in this day and age. 
>>
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[codacodercodacoder]

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 12:04:35 PM UTC-5, Rob Hoelz wrote:
>
> I can see where RichardWilliamSmith is coming from - 
>

Me, too.  The way they handled it was indeed poor.  For example, they could 
have made an exception and made FF56 an ESR release but (as yet) not so.  
FF52 is the last ESR with regular addons support.

 

>
> That being said, I was looking through the Web Extensions APIs, and it 
> looks like the downloads API 
>  
> could potentially be used to implement some of TiddlyFox's functionality.  
> It means you would need to keep your tiddlywiki.html file under your 
> Downloads folder, but it's better than nothing.
>

You can change the location of downloads in the preferences (Options) 
settings.  If you want to have the best of both worlds, you can set up 
different profiles for TW files (I do my TW work that way).  Having tested 
this for a few weeks, I quite like it.  I no longer see the loss of 
tiddlyfox as an issue.


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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Rob

I do understand the concern. But it was pretty much a concern without 
proven foundation. 

I NEVER, in years, had any problem. AND there is NOTHING I have ever seen 
that indicates the FF extension system was seriously abused. 

It seems to me that legitimate paranoia got mixed up with "vaguely possible 
sometime hack". IMO there is a larger story going on beyond basic web 
security about "Memes Of Modern Thought" that posit threats where they 
don't, pragmatically, function.

Anyway, its a done deal. AND the issue is WebExtensions at the moment, are 
no way capable of replacing the previous saving system. 

With TW that's an issue, but not fatal, with many other extensions it is 
death.

Best wishes
Josiah

Rob Hoelz wrote:
>
> I can see where RichardWilliamSmith is coming from - I think Mozilla 
> realized just how *dangerous *it is for extensions from third party 
> developers to have unfettered access to various OS services such as files, 
> especially in this day and age. 
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao RichardWilliamSmith wrote:

... it's something of a folly to mourn the obsolescence of software. Tempus 
fugit.

Let's not get too *hastus terminatus* before its time.

The point I was making is a valid one, I think: I use TW in a browser WITH 
other extensions. TW is NOT in isolation. It's simply a fact that FF 
developed an extremely good extensions API that *WebExtensions is a hollow 
shadow of*. Having to CLOSE DOWN FIREFOX extensions is something I do NOT 
want to have to do. It will cause me a lot of work finding another way. 
And, as of yet, I can't see ANY viable justification on limiting file 
saving for those extensions other than some weird ideology that has taken 
hold beyond reason. 

Your idea FF 57 is the Bees Knees is perhaps correct in terms of temporary 
performance improvements. The outcome, as far as I can see, is it will 
steal a few people from Chrome (as it imitates it) whilst throwing its 
uniqueness out the window. 

Lets discuss the usage figures next March.

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: [tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Eneko

GOOD question.

Recently Jeremy Ruston said he will update Tiddly Desktop. At the moment it 
can fail if you use recent CSS as its CSS library is out of date.

I should have probably added to that list (*with the caveat: needs updating*
).

Best wishes
Josiah

Eneko Gotzon wrote:
>
> ​About the falling of TiddlyFox, TiddlyDesktop 
>  is not a good choice​?
>

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Re: [tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Eneko Gotzon]

Hi wonderful coders, and excuse this kind of questions…

​About the falling of TiddlyFox, TiddlyDesktop
 is not a good choice​?

Don't worry answering the question if it's a trivial one.

​Thank you.
-- 
*Eneko Gotzon Ares*
*Izan, egon, egin*
*Donostia – EH, Baskonia, NA Oso*
*Tf *
*(+34) 943 273 431 - (+34) 639 626 858*
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eta soilik hartzaileari zuzentzen zaizkie. Mezu hau hutsegitez jasoz gero
berau ezabatzea eskatzen da eta igorleari horren berri ematea eskertuko
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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[RichardWilliamSmith]

In my opinion it's something of a folly to mourn the obsolescence of 
software. Tempus fugit. Best to just rip off the band aid, download the 
developer edition of Firefox which is already at 57, and never look back. 
It's a much better browser and stands a real chance of clawing back market 
share from Google with average users.

If you think about it, it's probably not a great idea for your browser to 
be able to save things to your disks silently in the background, which is 
what Tiddlyfox was doing, after all. Running a server that specifically has 
permission to save things to disk is the right solution, in my opinion, as 
boring as that may be.

Beaker is experimental, Noteself is quite complicated, the download saver 
has no auto-saving (any other problems are secondary, as you'll know if 
you've ever lost work that you didn't save). Tiddlyserver or possibly 
Webdav will be the right answer for most people, I think.


Regards,
Richard




On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 11:47:58 PM UTC+11, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao Daniel
>
> The issue with Pale Moon is not Pale Moon its about what "works for many". 
> Pale Moon is largely perceived as a peripheral experiment.
>
> TiddlyServer seems pretty damn good for survival. 
>
> And the the fact is you can save several ways...
>
> - Beaker Browser (Mac only at the moment)
>
> - Default Saver Tricks (Thanks to Mark S., more likely to follow)
>
> - TiddlyServer by Arlen & Mac package by RichardWS (*looks near universal 
> and proven*)
>
> - Local WebDav (still emerging, but looking workable).
>
> - Noteself (a different approach that uses browser storage, not a TW file, 
> & *will continue to work in FF*)
>
> - Other methods
>
> That said. I'd like to point to, as I just did in another thread, that the 
> reasons for using TW in a FF system are great. As much to do with 
> everything else than TW per se.  
>
> One does not use a browser to just run one type of web-page. FF XUL 
> supported many types of extension and I think part of the issue even here 
> in this group is mourning the demise of that too???
>
> *IMO, all that said, in the first instance, I still maintain FF ESR is the 
> Best Bet now if you need TW saving or file-saving FF extensions. It will 
> work till spring next year. *
>
> In the interim many things may happen. After that I may look at Pale Moon 
> if I need continuity with my many FF add-ons that may have permanently 
> failed to see if it could be viable.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
> Daniel Fjerstad wrote:
>>
>> One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the solution I plan on using, so I 
>> thought I'd share.
>>
>> Pale Moon is a fork of Firefox -- not just a shallow fork, but a true 
>> fork that hasn't shared the same code-base as Firefox for years now... 
>>
>
>

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[tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Daniel

The issue with Pale Moon is not Pale Moon its about what "works for many". 
Pale Moon is largely perceived as a peripheral experiment.

TiddlyServer seems pretty damn good for survival. 

And the the fact is you can save several ways...

- Beaker Browser (Mac only at the moment)

- Default Saver Tricks (Thanks to Mark S., more likely to follow)

- TiddlyServer by Arlen & Mac package by RichardWS (*looks near universal 
and proven*)

- Local WebDav (still emerging, but looking workable).

- Noteself (a different approach that uses browser storage, not a TW file, 
& *will continue to work in FF*)

- Other methods

That said. I'd like to point to, as I just did in another thread, that the 
reasons for using TW in a FF system are great. As much to do with 
everything else than TW per se.  

One does not use a browser to just run one type of web-page. FF XUL 
supported many types of extension and I think part of the issue even here 
in this group is mourning the demise of that too???

*IMO, all that said, in the first instance, I still maintain FF ESR is the 
Best Bet now if you need TW saving or file-saving FF extensions. It will 
work till spring next year. *

In the interim many things may happen. After that I may look at Pale Moon 
if I need continuity with my many FF add-ons that may have permanently 
failed to see if it could be viable.

Best wishes
Josiah

Daniel Fjerstad wrote:
>
> One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the solution I plan on using, so I 
> thought I'd share.
>
> Pale Moon is a fork of Firefox -- not just a shallow fork, but a true fork 
> that hasn't shared the same code-base as Firefox for years now... 
>

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Re: [tw] Re: Using TiddlyFox into the future

[Arlen Beiler]

That's because there are no other solutions that the community knows of.
But it's people like you mentioning stuff here that brings it to everyone's
attention. I did not know about this and will definitely have to check it
out, even though I've used chrome since it started.

There are a couple possibilities which would involve a combination of
browser extension and native windows application, but they are not very
well researched, especially from a security perspective.

This solution would work in all browsers, but would require quite a bit of
research, at least for me, so I am not planning on exploring that since I
already have TiddlyServer and it is easier for me to develop further if I
focus on one project.

TiddlyServer is built for this specific reason as well. Because I wanted
something to open TiddlyWiki folders and files both and keep everything
organized. And because I just love how light NodeJS is on Windows.

On Oct 3, 2017 6:19 PM, "'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki" <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Actually, I'm not sure the maintainers (really Jeremy) have mentioned
solutions at all except that Jeremy likes the Beaker Browser.
Unfortunately, that only applies to Mac, which is less than half the
desktop platforms. But there's certainly been lot's of discussion on this
forum. I imagine at some point there will be a posting of all working
solutions on TiddlyWiki.com, but technically the changes to FF haven't
occurred yet.

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