Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Arlen Beiler]

Hi Jeremy,
It sounds like I didn't come across very clearly. I apologise. Hopefully
this will help clarify.

Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and
the core idea again is one file.

I think here you are referring to the configuration where the server serves
a full TW HTML file to the browser. That’s not the only configuration that
is supported.


I was actually referring to noteself and TW5 in the sky as well. Tank would
be an exception. Perhaps I should look that one up again.


I don’t understand the comparison to Mediawiki. TiddlyWiki doesn’t have the
same goals as MediaWiki. Why would it? We already have MediaWiki, so I’m
not interested in re-inventing it. TiddlyWiki is trying to do something
different.


I'm comparing it to MediaWiki because that is what I know. I would like to
find a way to implement multi-user. Maybe I should broaden my horizons :)

So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold
up. It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just
as fast.

I think we’re coming from the same place here: the plethora of different
configurations that TiddlyWiki supports means that we can be confident that
it can be adapted to keep working into the far future.


That was actually the thrust of the entire email. Obviously it didn't come
across very clearly. My apologies :)

I was basically trying to say that is is very single file oriented (whereas
MediaWiki is very database oriented) therefore it is easy to switch
platforms (browsers themselves aren't going anywhere). Anything can serve
one file -- especially one that can generate itself.

The NodeJS system can generate almost anything. So between those two we
should be good.

Best wishes to you too :) I appreciate all the effort you've put into
Tiddlywiki :)

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Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Arlen

> 
> The tiddlywiki architecture is inherently single file.

I’d respectfully disagree with that statement.

TiddlyWiki 5 has a chicken and egg architecture: the Node.js configuration is 
the chicken; the egg that it produces is the standalone single file 
configuration. But note the relationship: the Node.js configuration creates the 
single file configuration, not the other way around.

So, the archetypal form of TiddlyWiki is the Node.js configuration.

The key characteristic that is shared by both configurations is the idea of 
keeping all data in memory (quite a popular architecture in this decade). But 
that’s something that can be changed: the store is pluggable and can be 
replaced.


> This is why it is so hard to get multi-user configured properly. You would 
> have to virtually dismantle tiddlywiki and put it together differently to get 
> anything as static as Wikipedia. 

That sounds like a non-sequitor. There are a number of missing pieces for the 
multi user configuration where TW runs in the browser, as have been 
acknowledged and listed elsewhere. You seem to be referencing the architecture 
whereby individual static pages are generated (rather than shipping a full TW 
to the browser). I’m not aware of any major omissions there.

> Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and the 
> core idea again is one file.

I think here you are referring to the configuration where the server serves a 
full TW HTML file to the browser. That’s not the only configuration that is 
supported.

> If you load a tiddlywiki, the chances are that the entire thing will slowly 
> get loaded as you browse if it was Wikipedia.

Here I think you’re talking about lazy loading?

I don’t understand the comparison to Mediawiki. TiddlyWiki doesn’t have the 
same goals as MediaWiki. Why would it? We already have MediaWiki, so I’m not 
interested in re-inventing it. TiddlyWiki is trying to do something different.

> There are many options going forward, and almost all of them are very single 
> file oriented when setup correctly.

I don’t quite understand why you think that “almost all of them are very single 
file oriented”?

> So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold up. 
> It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just as fast.

I think we’re coming from the same place here: the plethora of different 
configurations that TiddlyWiki supports means that we can be confident that it 
can be adapted to keep working into the far future.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> 
> My thoughts,
> -Arlen
> 
> On Mar 22, 2017 3:21 PM, "@TiddlyTweeter"  > wrote:
> Ciao Danielo  
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 12:51:15 UTC+1, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
> 
> Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ. Would 
> you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
> 
> Sure. If it is helpful. 
>  
> 3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs but 
> your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB in a 
> standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you 
> interested in that).
> 
> That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages of 
> TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time to 
> properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be able 
> to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
> 
> In the context of the current thread I am very appreciative of your answer. I 
> think its obvious, in a way, that one person following an interest can't 
> easily support carrying forward of their work other than in a very delimited 
> way. They just don't have the time.
> 
> But, also, from my point of view it also looks like, in some ways, good 
> things in TW that might well support wide use by non-specialists, get used by 
> a few, and never reach a critical mass. I'm observing this phenomena and 
> thinking about it. 
> 
> Its amazing the number of WAYS that TW can be got to work. But actually 
> forming an overview of them, one that you could communicate to others, is not 
> so easy.
> 
> Just thoughts
> 
> Best wishes
> Josiah
> 
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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Arlen Beiler]

The tiddlywiki architecture is inherently single file. This is why it is so
hard to get multi-user configured properly. You would have to virtually
dismantle tiddlywiki and put it together differently to get anything as
static as Wikipedia.

Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and
the core idea again is one file. If you load a tiddlywiki, the chances are
that the entire thing will slowly get loaded as you browse if it was
Wikipedia.

There are many options going forward, and almost all of them are very
single file oriented when setup correctly.

So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold
up. It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just
as fast.

My thoughts,
-Arlen

On Mar 22, 2017 3:21 PM, "@TiddlyTweeter"  wrote:

> Ciao Danielo
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
> On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 12:51:15 UTC+1, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>>
>>
>> Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ.
>> Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
>>
>
> Sure. If it is helpful.
>
>
>> 3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs
>>> but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB
>>> in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you
>>> interested in that).
>>>
>>
>> That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages
>> of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time
>> to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be
>> able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
>>
>
> In the context of the current thread I am very appreciative of your
> answer. I think its obvious, in a way, that one person following an
> interest can't easily support carrying forward of their work other than in
> a very delimited way. They just don't have the time.
>
> But, also, from my point of view it also looks like, in some ways,* good
> things in TW that might well support wide use by non-specialists, get used
> by a few, and never reach a critical mass.* I'm observing this phenomena
> and thinking about it.
>
> Its amazing the number of WAYS that TW can be got to work. But actually
> forming an overview of them, one that you could communicate to others, is
> not so easy.
>
> Just thoughts
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Danielo  

Thanks for your response.

On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 12:51:15 UTC+1, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>
>
> Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ. 
> Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
>

Sure. If it is helpful. 
 

> 3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs 
>> but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB 
>> in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you 
>> interested in that).
>>
>
> That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages 
> of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time 
> to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be 
> able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
>

In the context of the current thread I am very appreciative of your answer. 
I think its obvious, in a way, that one person following an interest can't 
easily support carrying forward of their work other than in a very 
delimited way. They just don't have the time.

But, also, from my point of view it also looks like, in some ways,* good 
things in TW that might well support wide use by non-specialists, get used 
by a few, and never reach a critical mass.* I'm observing this phenomena 
and thinking about it. 

Its amazing the number of WAYS that TW can be got to work. But actually 
forming an overview of them, one that you could communicate to others, is 
not so easy.

Just thoughts

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Josiah

Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ. 
Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
 

> 1 - its unclear how exactly to sign up to Cloudant. And whether they will 
> CHARGE your Credit Card. Do you need to pay to just test?
>

Those are two questions actually. About how to sign up to Cloudant, there 
is a video. I should spend some time making it remarkable. Regarding the 
second question, Cloudant DO NOT require any Credit Card to sign up, and 
they will not charge you anything unless you hit some (quite generous) 
milestones.
 

2 - its unclear what in NoteSelf is the TW "Evernote Replacement" and what 
> could be used other ways.
>

For me being able to store notes, checklist, bookmarks, all in one place 
and have them synched between devices is the part that replaces Evernote.
 

>
> 3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs 
> but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB 
> in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you 
> interested in that).
>

That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages 
of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time 
to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be 
able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
 

Regards

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Danielo

*I agree with all you write. All the components are mature and work.*

WHY is it so difficult to get started?

1 - its unclear how exactly to sign up to Cloudant. And whether they will 
CHARGE your Credit Card. Do you need to pay to just test?

2 - its unclear what in SelfNote is the TW "Evernote Replacement" and what 
could be used other ways.

3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs but 
your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB in a 
standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you 
interested in that).

*4 - I suspect that the PouchDB mechanism could solve a lot hassle that 
people have with saving TW. I think it deserves a lot of attention.*

Best wishes
Josiah





On Tuesday, 21 March 2017 18:32:54 UTC+1, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>
> Hello @Mat
>  
>
>> I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll 
>> try to plug NoteSelf  when it is relevant. 
>> ;-)
>>
>
> Thanks!
>  
>
>>
>> As for using it, I can't talk for others but the FAQ reads:
>>
>> [...]Can I use for production/very important things?
>>>
>>> I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is 
>>> still on Beta stage, and [...]
>>>
>>
>> So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the 
>> non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the 
>> saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll 
>> eventually publish it and then it's already there.
>>
>
> That is a disclaimer. As I said, I use it everyday without any problem or 
> data loss. But I don't want anyone to trust it 100% like a comercial 
> product and then come back to me with any inquiry if they mess it up. In 
> any case All the technologies behind NoteSelf are quite mature, PouchDB is 
> a widespread project, TiddlyWiki is on stable stage and CouchDB is a very 
> mature product too.
>
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello @Mat
 

> I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll 
> try to plug NoteSelf  when it is relevant. 
> ;-)
>

Thanks!
 

>
> As for using it, I can't talk for others but the FAQ reads:
>
> [...]Can I use for production/very important things?
>>
>> I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is 
>> still on Beta stage, and [...]
>>
>
> So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the 
> non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the 
> saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll 
> eventually publish it and then it's already there.
>

That is a disclaimer. As I said, I use it everyday without any problem or 
data loss. But I don't want anyone to trust it 100% like a comercial 
product and then come back to me with any inquiry if they mess it up. In 
any case All the technologies behind NoteSelf are quite mature, PouchDB is 
a widespread project, TiddlyWiki is on stable stage and CouchDB is a very 
mature product too.

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Arlen Beiler]

Lost admin,
Do you mean that TiddlyChrome app isn't working or were you talking about
the download router?
Thanks,
-Arlen

On Mar 17, 2017 12:52 PM, "Mat"  wrote:

> @Danielo
>
> I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about
>> it.
>
>
> I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll
> try to plug NoteSelf  when it is relevant.
> ;-)
>
> As for using it, I can't talk for others but the FAQ reads:
>
> [...]Can I use for production/very important things?
>>
>> I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is
>> still on Beta stage, and [...]
>>
>
> So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the
> non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the
> saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll
> eventually publish it and then it's already there.
>
> @everyone
> Now, it would be very useful if we could choose saver for download #1755
>  so people more
> easily could easily try out various solutions considering that many people
> are now working alternatives for saving or hosting, I think it would make
> sense to prioritize this issue. A later step might be to mesh it with the
> export function, e.g so people can save static tids to a blog.
>
>
> <:-)
>
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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Mat]

@Danielo

I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about it.


I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll 
try to plug NoteSelf  when it is relevant. ;-)

As for using it, I can't talk for others but the FAQ reads:

[...]Can I use for production/very important things?
>
> I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is 
> still on Beta stage, and [...]
>

So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the 
non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the 
saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll 
eventually publish it and then it's already there.

@everyone
Now, it would be very useful if we could choose saver for download #1755 
 so people more 
easily could easily try out various solutions considering that many people 
are now working alternatives for saving or hosting, I think it would make 
sense to prioritize this issue. A later step might be to mesh it with the 
export function, e.g so people can save static tids to a blog.


<:-)

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Danielo Rodríguez]

El viernes, 17 de marzo de 2017, 15:16:50 (UTC+1), Lost Admin escribió:
>
> I looked at it. It looks interesting. I liked the idea. I couldn't find 
> any instructions on how to set-up my own server to host my own.
>

I want to add subtitles and some voice explanations, and add it to the main 
page, but here is a 2 min video with a small  how-to

https://youtu.be/Oc5lNND8dZE 

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Lost Admin]

I looked at it. It looks interesting. I liked the idea. I couldn't find any 
instructions on how to set-up my own server to host my own.

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 4:28:32 AM UTC-4, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>
> Thank you Josiah for mentioning NoteSelf.
> I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about 
> it.
>
> It has all the three ootions: autosave on your local browser , manual 
> download option and automatic synchronization to a remote databases. 
>
> I use it daily both at my work and my mobile phone. On my work I use it on 
> chrome, while on my mobile phone I use the Android app (available on this 
> forum ) and I never had a problem . I never had to remember which one was 
> my latest version , I never had to wait until Dropbox synchronizes it to my 
> new location , I never had to melt two files searching for the most recent 
> editions of each. None of those problems , and you have a seamless 
> experience both on mobile and desktop browsers. You don't even need to 
> install the Android app if you don't want, the online version provides also 
> an app-like experience .
>
> As I said several times, I have created this for myself, but after a while 
> I realized that maybe others could benefit from it so I have released. It's 
> sad that so few people is using it .
>
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Lost Admin]

I posted the link. It turns out it stopped working on current versions of 
Chrome because Google altered functionality for security reasons. I'm using 
an older version of Chrome (because my employer hasn't upgraded yet, so it 
works for me).

The link is https://github.com/Arlen22/tiddly-chrome-app
NOTE: I'm not the author, just a user.

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 5:04:11 PM UTC-4, Mat wrote:
>
> I could swear someone posted a link above to some Chrome extension.. or at 
> least mentioned on, but since I can't find it;
>
> Downloads Overwrite Already Existing File 
> 
>  
> and on github  
> - 
> a quick glance at the code gives the impression of something extremely 
> lightweight!
>
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Thank you Josiah for mentioning NoteSelf.
I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about it.

It has all the three ootions: autosave on your local browser , manual download 
option and automatic synchronization to a remote databases. 

I use it daily both at my work and my mobile phone. On my work I use it on 
chrome, while on my mobile phone I use the Android app (available on this forum 
) and I never had a problem . I never had to remember which one was my latest 
version , I never had to wait until Dropbox synchronizes it to my new location 
, I never had to melt two files searching for the most recent editions of each. 
None of those problems , and you have a seamless experience both on mobile and 
desktop browsers. You don't even need to install the Android app if you don't 
want, the online version provides also an app-like experience .

As I said several times, I have created this for myself, but after a while I 
realized that maybe others could benefit from it so I have released. It's sad 
that so few people is using it .

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Mat]

Possibly also of interest: Downloads Router 
 
Chrome Extension to (perhaps) always have TW files go to a designated local 
folder.

<:-)



On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 10:04:11 PM UTC+1, Mat wrote:
>
> I could swear someone posted a link above to some Chrome extension.. or at 
> least mentioned on, but since I can't find it;
>
> Downloads Overwrite Already Existing File 
> 
>  
> and on github  
> - 
> a quick glance at the code gives the impression of something extremely 
> lightweight!
>
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Mat]

I could swear someone posted a link above to some Chrome extension.. or at 
least mentioned on, but since I can't find it;

Downloads Overwrite Already Existing File 

 
and on github  
- 
a quick glance at the code gives the impression of something extremely 
lightweight!


<:-)

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Arlen & all

Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> What if we would combine the best of both words?
>

I do think that is something in all this. Perhaps it not so cut and dry?

Personally I am very interested in Danielo's ongoing project of a TW that 
BOTH can auto-save into Browser Storage (into an automatically created 
local database), rather than using the Download Saver mechanisms.  It can 
also be synced with a remote database. Once that is done you can use it 
from more than one location. Basic info here: https://noteself.github.io/

I haven't had time, nor have I the competence, to thoroughly test it, but I 
think it is very suggestive to see something concrete like that actually 
seems to work.

Its in some ways, potentially, a demonstration of how the "on-line" and 
"off-line" can be crossed. I think its interesting to look at in the 
context of Jeremy's comments.

Best wishes
Josiah 

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Lost Admin]

The challenge with any solution that involves more than using a web browser 
is that some of us won't be able to use it. I suspect this group is a small 
sub-set of TiddlyWiki users, so your idea still has merit and, I think, 
should be pursued.

I use TiddyWiki at work because most of the information sources and tools I 
need to look things up are on slow sharepoint sites (is there such a thing 
as a fast sharepoint?). So, I copy the stuff I need from sharepoint into a 
local TiddlyWiki.

I'm technically savvy enough to confidently install node.js on my work 
computer but I'm not allowed to. I shouldn't even be able to except I need 
escalated privileges for one of the tasks I have to do. But, the company's 
desktop IDS would catch if I installed node.js without permission (which I 
won't get). Fortunately, add-ins for Chrome are allowed (and they haven't 
updated Chrome yet, so it still works). Sadly, I'm not allowed Firefox (I 
don't know why).

When they update Chrome, I will need to switch how I use TiddyWiki and have 
a slew of index(n).html files to sort through.


At home, I don't have this problem. I have a small server (Intel NUC) that 
provides me with a tiddlywiki server (apache, php, and store.php). But, the 
average non-technical user wouldn't be able to do that.

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:53:57 AM UTC-4, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to 
> load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the 
> changes back to the server.
>
> node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder
>
> Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory 
> listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want. 
>
> It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save 
> changes back to the server.
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Arlen Beiler  > wrote:
>
>> What if we would combine the best of both words?
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM, @TiddlyTweeter > > wrote:
>>
>>> Ciao all ...
>>>
>>> The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that 
>>> Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be 
>>> more productive in public ... 
>>>
>>> Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
>>>
>>> Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with 
 TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture. 
>>>
>>> It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people. 
>>>
>>> The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those 
 problems melt away. Simple. 
>>>
>>> If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of 
 working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing 
 on the planet that can help them, 
>>>
>>> and it comes with a learning curve.  *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into 
>>> that one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too?? 
>>>
>>> Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) 
>>> that I think is worthy of much attention.
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> Josiah
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
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>>> an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com .
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>>> .
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f64623ef-ab8c-4cb9-ac65-cba804474888%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Arlen Beiler]

Are you allowed to use portable apps? I am thinking of something that would
not require installation.

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:44 PM, Lost Admin  wrote:

> The challenge with any solution that involves more than using a web
> browser is that some of us won't be able to use it. I suspect this group is
> a small sub-set of TiddlyWiki users, so your idea still has merit and, I
> think, should be pursued.
>
> I use TiddyWiki at work because most of the information sources and tools
> I need to look things up are on slow sharepoint sites (is there such a
> thing as a fast sharepoint?). So, I copy the stuff I need from sharepoint
> into a local TiddlyWiki.
>
> I'm technically savvy enough to confidently install node.js on my work
> computer but I'm not allowed to. I shouldn't even be able to except I need
> escalated privileges for one of the tasks I have to do. But, the company's
> desktop IDS would catch if I installed node.js without permission (which I
> won't get). Fortunately, add-ins for Chrome are allowed (and they haven't
> updated Chrome yet, so it still works). Sadly, I'm not allowed Firefox (I
> don't know why).
>
> When they update Chrome, I will need to switch how I use TiddyWiki and
> have a slew of index(n).html files to sort through.
>
>
> At home, I don't have this problem. I have a small server (Intel NUC) that
> provides me with a tiddlywiki server (apache, php, and store.php). But, the
> average non-technical user wouldn't be able to do that.
>
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:53:57 AM UTC-4, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to
>> load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the
>> changes back to the server.
>>
>> node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder
>>
>> Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory
>> listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.
>>
>> It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save
>> changes back to the server.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Arlen Beiler  wrote:
>>
>>> What if we would combine the best of both words?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM, @TiddlyTweeter 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Ciao all ...

 The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
 Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
 more productive in public ...

 Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...

 Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with
> TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture.

 It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.

 The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
> problems melt away. Simple.

 If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of
> working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing
> on the planet that can help them,

 and it comes with a learning curve.  *(Layout edited slightly by me)*


 There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into
 that one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??

 Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy)
 that I think is worthy of much attention.

 Best wishes
 Josiah

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>>>
>>>
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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Arlen Beiler]

Any thoughts?

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Arlen Beiler  wrote:

> I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to
> load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the
> changes back to the server.
>
> node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder
>
> Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory
> listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.
>
> It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save
> changes back to the server.
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Arlen Beiler  wrote:
>
>> What if we would combine the best of both words?
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM, @TiddlyTweeter > > wrote:
>>
>>> Ciao all ...
>>>
>>> The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
>>> Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
>>> more productive in public ...
>>>
>>> Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
>>>
>>> Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with
 TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture.
>>>
>>> It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
>>>
>>> The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
 problems melt away. Simple.
>>>
>>> If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of
 working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing
 on the planet that can help them,
>>>
>>> and it comes with a learning curve.  *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into
>>> that one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
>>>
>>> Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy)
>>> that I think is worthy of much attention.
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> Josiah
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
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>>> an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms
>>> gid/tiddlywiki/f64623ef-ab8c-4cb9-ac65-cba804474888%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Arlen Beiler]

I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to
load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the
changes back to the server.

node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder

Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory
listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.

It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save changes
back to the server.

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Arlen Beiler  wrote:

> What if we would combine the best of both words?
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM, @TiddlyTweeter 
> wrote:
>
>> Ciao all ...
>>
>> The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
>> Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
>> more productive in public ...
>>
>> Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
>>
>> Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
>>> stem from the single file architecture.
>>
>> It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
>>
>> The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
>>> problems melt away. Simple.
>>
>> If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working
>>> offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the
>>> planet that can help them,
>>
>> and it comes with a learning curve.  *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
>>
>>
>> There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into that
>> one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
>>
>> Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) that
>> I think is worthy of much attention.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Josiah
>>
>> --
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>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
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>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms
>> gid/tiddlywiki/f64623ef-ab8c-4cb9-ac65-cba804474888%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Arlen Beiler]

What if we would combine the best of both words?

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM, @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> Ciao all ...
>
> The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
> Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
> more productive in public ...
>
> Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
>
> Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
>> stem from the single file architecture.
>
> It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
>
> The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those problems
>> melt away. Simple.
>
> If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working
>> offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the
>> planet that can help them,
>
> and it comes with a learning curve.  *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
>
>
> There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into that
> one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
>
> Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) that
> I think is worthy of much attention.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
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> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/tiddlywiki/f64623ef-ab8c-4cb9-ac65-cba804474888%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
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>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao all ...

The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that 
Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be 
more productive in public ... 

Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...

Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki 
> stem from the single file architecture. 

It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people. 

The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those problems 
> melt away. Simple. 

If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working 
> offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the 
> planet that can help them, 

and it comes with a learning curve.  *(Layout edited slightly by me)*


There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into that 
one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too?? 

Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) that I 
think is worthy of much attention.

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Jon]

Excellent.

Regards
Jon

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 13:10:16 UTC, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone, 
>
> It’s a shame to see this thread go a little off the rails as this is an 
> important and interesting discussion — which may be why it has aroused such 
> passions. That passion is itself an important component of the TiddlyWiki 
> community: for many of us, using and working on TiddlyWiki is deeply 
> intertwined with our lives, and so it’s natural to have strongly held 
> opinions about it. 
>
> Nonetheless, we all have to pay attention to how we behave in order to 
> keep things civil and fun. That means that we criticise ideas, not people; 
> that we start with the assumption that everyone is participating in good 
> faith, and we understand that the ambiguities and exigencies of online 
> communication can have inadvertent side effects. 
>
> We should never lose sight of what we have in common. This community is a 
> living example of how an incredibly diverse group of people can come 
> together and help one another. 
>
> Best wishes 
>
> Jeremy 
>
>
> > On 15 Mar 2017, at 00:48, Ákos Szederjei  > wrote: 
> > 
> > Dear Eric! 
> > 
> > Who said YOU are not being able to resolve it, or YOU do not want too, 
> because 
> > other feature are deemed more important? Really... 
> > The world is not revolving around you. This list is about TW and not 
> about 
> > your capabilities. What you do or want I could care less. It is not that 
> you 
> > will resolve the issue of the plug in on your own. If you are the sole 
> > developer of this issue I profoundly apologise. 
> > 
> > Talking about making stuff up? You claimed that the 4 step solution of 
> yours 
> > is the same as if the plug in is used. Really? I just closed a Tiddly in 
> old 
> > FF and it auto saved. The same, sure, and my microwaves make video 
> > recordings... 
> > 
> > Fortunately, I am not really dependent on the offline functionality for 
> my wiki. 
> > Your argumentation (or the lack of it) convinced me to switch now to 
> another 
> > wiki and not wait for a solution for TW' saving problem. 
> > 
> > Good luck with your endeavour! 
> > 
> > Ákos 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mittwoch, 15. März 2017 00:56:53 CET Eric Shulman wrote: 
> >> On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:35:46 PM UTC-7, Ákos Szederjei wrote: 
> >>> I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able 
> to 
> >>> resolve 
> >> 
> >> it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more 
> >> 
> >>> important. 
> >> 
> >> It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but... 
> >> 
> >> I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important" 
> >> 
> >> DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!! 
> >> 
> >> Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get 
> to 
> >> MAKE STUFF UP about what I said. 
> >> 
> >> YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP! 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 
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> an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com . 
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> . 
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> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/2546852.q7A4t5DQJh%40michael-pc. 
>
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
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>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy, Pmario, Mat & others ...

Thanks for pointing out the drift in the wrong direction. I agree its not 
terribly construction. 

My apologies to Eric if I came over as aggressive.  

I think my point is actually a broader one that I will try to present in a 
later post. 

By way of thoughts on thsi: The file-saving issues that me and others have 
presented quite passionately matter, I think, still. BUT they need 
contextualing in my opinion lest it looks like a conflict over ONE point. 
It isn't really. And the useful* context is Jeremy's second statement*. 

It is THAT, more than anything, that interested me personally to try and 
open up more.

Very best wishes to all
Josiah

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 14:10:16 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone, 
>
> It’s a shame to see this thread go a little off the rails as this is an 
> important and interesting discussion — which may be why it has aroused such 
> passions. That passion is itself an important component of the TiddlyWiki 
> community: for many of us, using and working on TiddlyWiki is deeply 
> intertwined with our lives, and so it’s natural to have strongly held 
> opinions about it. 
>
> Nonetheless, we all have to pay attention to how we behave in order to 
> keep things civil and fun. That means that we criticise ideas, not people; 
> that we start with the assumption that everyone is participating in good 
> faith, and we understand that the ambiguities and exigencies of online 
> communication can have inadvertent side effects. 
>
> We should never lose sight of what we have in common. This community is a 
> living example of how an incredibly diverse group of people can come 
> together and help one another. 
>
> Best wishes 
>
> Jeremy 
>
>
> > On 15 Mar 2017, at 00:48, Ákos Szederjei  > wrote: 
> > 
> > Dear Eric! 
> > 
> > Who said YOU are not being able to resolve it, or YOU do not want too, 
> because 
> > other feature are deemed more important? Really... 
> > The world is not revolving around you. This list is about TW and not 
> about 
> > your capabilities. What you do or want I could care less. It is not that 
> you 
> > will resolve the issue of the plug in on your own. If you are the sole 
> > developer of this issue I profoundly apologise. 
> > 
> > Talking about making stuff up? You claimed that the 4 step solution of 
> yours 
> > is the same as if the plug in is used. Really? I just closed a Tiddly in 
> old 
> > FF and it auto saved. The same, sure, and my microwaves make video 
> > recordings... 
> > 
> > Fortunately, I am not really dependent on the offline functionality for 
> my wiki. 
> > Your argumentation (or the lack of it) convinced me to switch now to 
> another 
> > wiki and not wait for a solution for TW' saving problem. 
> > 
> > Good luck with your endeavour! 
> > 
> > Ákos 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mittwoch, 15. März 2017 00:56:53 CET Eric Shulman wrote: 
> >> On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:35:46 PM UTC-7, Ákos Szederjei wrote: 
> >>> I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able 
> to 
> >>> resolve 
> >> 
> >> it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more 
> >> 
> >>> important. 
> >> 
> >> It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but... 
> >> 
> >> I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important" 
> >> 
> >> DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!! 
> >> 
> >> Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get 
> to 
> >> MAKE STUFF UP about what I said. 
> >> 
> >> YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP! 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com . 
> > To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com 
> . 
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. 
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/2546852.q7A4t5DQJh%40michael-pc. 
>
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>
>

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Re: Re: [tw] Voicing Futures ...

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hello Everyone,

It’s a shame to see this thread go a little off the rails as this is an 
important and interesting discussion — which may be why it has aroused such 
passions. That passion is itself an important component of the TiddlyWiki 
community: for many of us, using and working on TiddlyWiki is deeply 
intertwined with our lives, and so it’s natural to have strongly held opinions 
about it.

Nonetheless, we all have to pay attention to how we behave in order to keep 
things civil and fun. That means that we criticise ideas, not people; that we 
start with the assumption that everyone is participating in good faith, and we 
understand that the ambiguities and exigencies of online communication can have 
inadvertent side effects.

We should never lose sight of what we have in common. This community is a 
living example of how an incredibly diverse group of people can come together 
and help one another.

Best wishes

Jeremy


> On 15 Mar 2017, at 00:48, Ákos Szederjei  wrote:
> 
> Dear Eric!
> 
> Who said YOU are not being able to resolve it, or YOU do not want too, 
> because 
> other feature are deemed more important? Really...
> The world is not revolving around you. This list is about TW and not about 
> your capabilities. What you do or want I could care less. It is not that you 
> will resolve the issue of the plug in on your own. If you are the sole 
> developer of this issue I profoundly apologise.
> 
> Talking about making stuff up? You claimed that the 4 step solution of yours 
> is the same as if the plug in is used. Really? I just closed a Tiddly in old 
> FF and it auto saved. The same, sure, and my microwaves make video 
> recordings...
> 
> Fortunately, I am not really dependent on the offline functionality for my 
> wiki. 
> Your argumentation (or the lack of it) convinced me to switch now to another 
> wiki and not wait for a solution for TW' saving problem. 
> 
> Good luck with your endeavour! 
> 
> Ákos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mittwoch, 15. März 2017 00:56:53 CET Eric Shulman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:35:46 PM UTC-7, Ákos Szederjei wrote:
>>> I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able to
>>> resolve
>> 
>> it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more
>> 
>>> important.
>> 
>> It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but...
>> 
>> I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important"
>> 
>> DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!
>> 
>> Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get to
>> MAKE STUFF UP about what I said.
>> 
>> YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP!
> 
> -- 
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> "TiddlyWiki" group.
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[tw] Voicing Futures ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter. 
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants 
to read / comment ... *

*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving? 

Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous 
Firefox 57? 

WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons? 

WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"? 

Best wishes 
Josiah


*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5 
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they 
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous 
full review. 


*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well, I'm 
pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit). 

I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of 
TW. 

No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite. 
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most 
folk. 

On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what 
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting 
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted. 

I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point of 
view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still work 
in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox 57 
- Compatability Milestone 


*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki 
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most 
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those 
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the 
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then 
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes 
with a learning curve. That’s life.

*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML file 
experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t think 
that’s possible.

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