Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

On 16/11/2018 11:50, Mark Thomas wrote:
> On 16/11/2018 09:37, Richard HO wrote:
>> Hi, Mark
>>
>> I used to be a JEE application server developer and developed it for
>> three years. I am also a blogger at the same time. 
>> My article will be posted to the WeChat subscription account.
>> Currently, there are more than 15,000 subscribers. Content will be read
>> by all  followers.
>>
>> This morning, I posted an article about the translation of Tocmat
>> internationalization information and error messages. 
>> Our target language is Simplified Chinese. So, many developers have
>> joined in and everyone works together.
> 
> Ah. That explains the influx of email to my inbox for all those new
> contributors.
> 
>>  At noon, the progress of Chinese translation has reached 10%.
> 
> Excellent!
> 
>> WechatIMG551.jpeg
>>   But in the afternoon, I suddenly found that the progress became 3%, 
>>
>>   and I saw your name in the contributor. 
>>   
>>
>>   Excuse me, did you clear some content?
> 
> I'm fairly sure it wasn't me. The UI isn't great for telling who deleted
> stuff but I see translations that are ~10 hours old that have been
> deleted. That was the middle of the night for me and I was asleep so I'm
> fairly sure I didn't delete anything.
> 
>> Is the translated content unqualified? 
> 
> Not as far as I am concerned. I think someone (and I can't tell who)
> accidentally pressed the "Flush All Translations" button which wipes
> everything out.
> 
> As project admin I have the option to restore those. Based on what you
> have written I'll try doing that. I'll do an export first though in case
> the restoration causes any other data to be lost.

OK. Anything that had been re-translated should not have been changed. A
total of 188 translations were recovered putting simplified Chinese at a
very impressive 17%.

I'll work on getting those added into the Tomcat code base.

Mark

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Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

On 16/11/2018 09:37, Richard HO wrote:
> Hi, Mark
> 
> I used to be a JEE application server developer and developed it for
> three years. I am also a blogger at the same time. 
> My article will be posted to the WeChat subscription account.
> Currently, there are more than 15,000 subscribers. Content will be read
> by all  followers.
> 
> This morning, I posted an article about the translation of Tocmat
> internationalization information and error messages. 
> Our target language is Simplified Chinese. So, many developers have
> joined in and everyone works together.

Ah. That explains the influx of email to my inbox for all those new
contributors.

>  At noon, the progress of Chinese translation has reached 10%.

Excellent!

> WechatIMG551.jpeg
>   But in the afternoon, I suddenly found that the progress became 3%, 
> 
>   and I saw your name in the contributor. 
>   
> 
>   Excuse me, did you clear some content?

I'm fairly sure it wasn't me. The UI isn't great for telling who deleted
stuff but I see translations that are ~10 hours old that have been
deleted. That was the middle of the night for me and I was asleep so I'm
fairly sure I didn't delete anything.

> Is the translated content unqualified? 

Not as far as I am concerned. I think someone (and I can't tell who)
accidentally pressed the "Flush All Translations" button which wipes
everything out.

As project admin I have the option to restore those. Based on what you
have written I'll try doing that. I'll do an export first though in case
the restoration causes any other data to be lost.

Mark


> 
> 
> 
> 3abc.jpg
> translator.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> Mark Thomas mailto:ma...@apache.org>> 于2018年11月12
> 日周一 下午7:49写道：
> 
> All,
> 
> Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
> the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
> like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
> Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
> service for managing the translation of resource files.
> 
> The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
> could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
> adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.
> 
> If you would like to contribute in this way then the
> The Tomcat project can be found here:
> 
> https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl
> 
> Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
> interested, please sign up and start contributing.
> 
> Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
> the Apache License version 2.
> 
> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
> next Tomcat 9 release.
> 
> If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark
> 
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> 
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> 
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Re: Translation help wanted

[Richard HO]

Hi, Mark

I used to be a JEE application server developer and developed it for three
years. I am also a blogger at the same time.
My article will be posted to the WeChat subscription account.
Currently, there are more than 15,000 subscribers. Content will be read by
all  followers.

This morning, I posted an article about the translation of Tocmat
internationalization information and error messages.
Our target language is Simplified Chinese. So, many developers have joined
in and everyone works together.
 At noon, the progress of Chinese translation has reached 10%.

[image: WechatIMG551.jpeg]
  But in the afternoon, I suddenly found that the progress became 3%,

  and I saw your name in the contributor.


  Excuse me, did you clear some content?

Is the translated content unqualified?



[image: 3abc.jpg]
[image: translator.jpg]



Richard


Mark Thomas  于2018年11月12日周一 下午7:49写道：

> All,
>
> Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
> the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
> like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
> Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
> service for managing the translation of resource files.
>
> The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
> could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
> adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.
>
> If you would like to contribute in this way then the
> The Tomcat project can be found here:
>
> https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl
>
> Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
> interested, please sign up and start contributing.
>
> Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
> the Apache License version 2.
>
> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
> next Tomcat 9 release.
>
> If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>
>

Re: Translation help wanted

[Woonsan Ko]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:02 PM André Warnier (tomcat)  wrote:
>
> Ok, I take it back. I don't think there's an AI smart enough to translate 
> this one :

+1. ;-)

While translating only 3% for Korean, I already met some challenging
items and it was not easy to find right words.
In my case, it was helpful to look up the source code as well in that case.

For example,

Unable to replicate out data for a AbstractReplicatedMap.get operation
java.org.apache.catalina.tribes.tipis.zzz.abstractReplicatedMap.unable.get

The first line is the English message, and the second is a hint for
the message key. Just remove before "zzz." and find
"abstractReplicatedMap.unable.get" in the .java files from [1]. Then
the message can be better understood, or we could get a better
translation than the default one.

AI is cheap at the moment. Cheap word is cheap to readers.

Regards,

Woonsan

[1] https://github.com/apache/tomcat.git

>
> "The attribute directive (declared in line [{1}] and whose name attribute is 
> [{0}], the
> value of this name-from-attribute attribute) must be of type 
> java.lang.String, is
> "required" and not a "rtexprvalue"."
>
> On 13.11.2018 18:54, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:
> > On 13.11.2018 18:12, Mark Thomas wrote:
> >> Removing the [OT] marker as I think this is very much on topic.
> >>
> >> On 13/11/2018 15:33, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:
> >>> Holy Smoke (Fumée Sacrée | Sagrado Humo | Heilige Rauch) !
> >>> How many messages are in that code ?
> >>
> >> Currently there are 2747 unique terms.
> >>
> >>> Seems time to add some AI-translate add-on to the code.
> >>
> >> That is supported but it has to be paid for. That was something I was
> >> thinking about. I have 10k characters of free translation (POEditor uses
> >> either Google translate or Microsoft Automatic Translation) with my
> >> POEditor account. The Tomcat messages average ~67.5 characters per
> >> message so those free credits should be able to translate just under 150
> >> messages.
> >>
> >> To put it another way, automatic translation of the 2000 untranslated
> >> French messages would cost less than $10 USD.
> >>
> >> Hmm. The Tomcat project has a little over GBP 800 in the bank to cover
> >> the up front costs of the next Tomca,t conference.
> >>
> >> Here is a thought. I try automatic translation of as many French
> >> messages as I can with the 10k free characters. You review them (you can
> >> filter by automatic translation and then mark them as proof read). If
> >> you think the automatic translations are worthwhile, I get the PMC to
> >> vote on spending some of that money on automatic translation. For
> >> example, if we spent ~$55 we could do automatic translation for just
> >> over 10 complete languages.
> >>
> >> Are you up for that?
> >>
> >
> > I was half-kidding, but what I was really thinking of, was a Valve which 
> > would use some AI
> > to translate the messages going out, on-the-fly.
> >
> > The vast majority of the messages which I've seen so far (and attempted to 
> > translate to
> > French), are error messages, which either go to the logs (in majority I 
> > presume), or to
> > the user as some kind of error response (of which the status codes should 
> > be identifiable).
> > A good number of terms in them (50% ?) are either untranslatable, or should 
> > not be
> > translated because they point to Classnames and the like (so, "reserved 
> > words").
> > The rest looks like a limited vocabulary and "filler" words, such as "can", 
> > "cannot",
> > "disallowed", "parameter", "directory", "request", "response", "committed" 
> > ..
> > The majority of the messages also look like they would make sense only to a 
> > public of
> > programmers, which are used to deal with english-speaking-only programming 
> > languages (only
> > Java in this case), and (I believe) are not so picky about the finer points 
> > of style or
> > syntax (well, at least not the ones I know) ;-).
> > The thing is also that one really needs such a translation only when things 
> > go wrong or
> > during development/testing, so it could be turned off (default) and on only 
> > when needed,
> > using some dynamic parameter e.g. (the Manager, anyone ?).
> >
> > That all looks to me like it may make sense, and it should not be so 
> > difficult, to apply
> > some automated (and optional) translation to them on-the-fly.  And such a 
> > thing may save
> > *a lot* of maintenance and contributed time over the years, don't you think 
> > ?
> >
> > Note that this is not in any way meant to denigrate the enthousiasm and 
> > literary talent of
> > the people having contributed so far. But let's face it : due to the very 
> > nature of the
> > beast itself, to the length limit etc., most of what comes out looks like 
> > Denglish or
> > Frenglish or Spanglish anyway (and has to be so, to be really helpful). So 
> > maybe we might
> > as well bite the bullet..
> > Also, AI sounds hot again nowadays, and having the first Apache software 

Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

On 13/11/2018 18:08, Olaf Kock wrote:
> 
> On 13.11.18 18:12, Mark Thomas wrote:
>>
>>> Seems time to add some AI-translate add-on to the code.
>> That is supported but it has to be paid for. That was something I was
>> thinking about. I have 10k characters of free translation (POEditor uses
>> either Google translate or Microsoft Automatic Translation) with my
>> POEditor account. The Tomcat messages average ~67.5 characters per
>> message so those free credits should be able to translate just under 150
>> messages.
> 
> 
> We've been using automatic translation in Liferay for a while, but IMHO
> this didn't work out well.
> 
> Machine translations lack the context, and are rarely right (and
> accurate), but typically confusing, sometimes hillarious, partly rude
> and rather unhelpful. More than that: If even new terms will be
> automatically translated in the future, translators will always have to
> go through *everything* and identify the newly automatically translated
> strings. Not fun.
> 
> I'd recommend to not even consider it. At Liferay, which has
> considerable user-facing UI, this was a quick start, that triggered
> corrections once there was a wonky automatic translation. Plus, after a
> while we introduced a mechanism to identify newly translated strings.
> Without that, it's hard to maintain.

We do have this. POEditor will filter to show only automated
translations and we can mark them as proof-read once they have been checked.

Is any one willing to try this? If so, for which language?

Mark

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RE: Translation help wanted

[Caldarale, Charles R]

> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:ch...@christopherschultz.net] 
> Subject: Re: Translation help wanted

> There is no need to have an en-BR, en-US and eu-AU when simply "en" will
work.

Might need an en-EastEnders or en-Yorkshire though...

  - Chuck


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Re: Translation help wanted

[Dave Fisher]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 13, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Christopher Schultz 
>  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> All,
> 
>> On 11/13/18 10:39, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:
>>> On 13.11.2018 13:32, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the
 Tomcat source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of
 new/updated translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get
 any updates into the next Tomcat 9 release.
 
>>> 
>>> Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from
>>> but in Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway
>>> :D
>>> 
>> 
>> You could add "French (B)" though.  There's more of us than
>> Monégasques, and we have some words all our own, for instance in
>> the numbers category. I'm sure the Swiss would agree.
>> 
>> Just kidding..
> 
> Here's the thing: lots of countries have their own dialects of various
> languages, but the root language is really the same. Nobody in Quebec
> is going to read "standard" French and misunderstand "our boat is
> sinking and we are all going to die" for "we are performing an
> existential thought-experiment"[1].
> 
> If the "standard" translation is done well, we don't need fr-* where *
> is every country where the French language is spoken. Imagine fr-US-NO
> where "NO" is "New Orleans" which speaks ... an odd assortment of
> pidgin languages that sound kind of French-y. We don't need an
> explosion of translations. There is no need to have an en-BR, en-US
> and eu-AU when simply "en" will work.
> 
> I'm sure that's the case for most other languages in the world.
> 
> There is a significant argument for zh-CN and zh-TW/zh-HK because
> mainland China almost exclusively uses Simplifies Chinese while TW/HK
> still use Traditional, and there really is a big difference, there.
> But I think that's an exception to the general rule.

The others are pt and pt-BR. 

> 
> When providing a translation for a particular language, try not to use
> colloquialisms that will only be understood by the people who live in
> your own city. This could easily happen in English if the Brits all
> used British slang for everything, which is completely indecipherable
> to Americans, etc. But it really shouldn't come up very often. There
> is always a clear way of saying something without resorting to slang.
> 
> If you are tempted to use slang, remember that not everyone will be
> able to read it. And if English is the primary language from which
> these translations will come, then using slang there will probably
> turn into something which (literally) does not translate well into
> another language. So, stick to standard, boring language, here.
> 
> - -chris
> 
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR0lWICH3rY
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RE: Translation help wanted

[Caldarale, Charles R]

> From: André Warnier (tomcat) [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] 
> Subject: Re: Translation help wanted

> Ok, I take it back. I don't think there's an AI smart enough to translate
this one :

> "The attribute directive (declared in line [{1}] and whose name attribute
is [{0}], the 
> value of this name-from-attribute attribute) must be of type
java.lang.String, is 
> "required" and not a "rtexprvalue"."

Maybe we should translate it to English first...

  - Chuck

"This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put."
(probably Churchill, in The Strand magazine)


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Re: Translation help wanted

[Olaf Kock]

On 13.11.18 18:12, Mark Thomas wrote:



Seems time to add some AI-translate add-on to the code.

That is supported but it has to be paid for. That was something I was
thinking about. I have 10k characters of free translation (POEditor uses
either Google translate or Microsoft Automatic Translation) with my
POEditor account. The Tomcat messages average ~67.5 characters per
message so those free credits should be able to translate just under 150
messages.



We've been using automatic translation in Liferay for a while, but IMHO 
this didn't work out well.


Machine translations lack the context, and are rarely right (and 
accurate), but typically confusing, sometimes hillarious, partly rude 
and rather unhelpful. More than that: If even new terms will be 
automatically translated in the future, translators will always have to 
go through *everything* and identify the newly automatically translated 
strings. Not fun.


I'd recommend to not even consider it. At Liferay, which has 
considerable user-facing UI, this was a quick start, that triggered 
corrections once there was a wonky automatic translation. Plus, after a 
while we introduced a mechanism to identify newly translated strings. 
Without that, it's hard to maintain.


My 2 cents,

Olaf



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Re: Translation help wanted

[tomcat]

Ok, I take it back. I don't think there's an AI smart enough to translate this 
one :

"The attribute directive (declared in line [{1}] and whose name attribute is [{0}], the 
value of this name-from-attribute attribute) must be of type java.lang.String, is 
"required" and not a "rtexprvalue"."


On 13.11.2018 18:54, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:

On 13.11.2018 18:12, Mark Thomas wrote:

Removing the [OT] marker as I think this is very much on topic.

On 13/11/2018 15:33, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:

Holy Smoke (Fumée Sacrée | Sagrado Humo | Heilige Rauch) !
How many messages are in that code ?


Currently there are 2747 unique terms.


Seems time to add some AI-translate add-on to the code.


That is supported but it has to be paid for. That was something I was
thinking about. I have 10k characters of free translation (POEditor uses
either Google translate or Microsoft Automatic Translation) with my
POEditor account. The Tomcat messages average ~67.5 characters per
message so those free credits should be able to translate just under 150
messages.

To put it another way, automatic translation of the 2000 untranslated
French messages would cost less than $10 USD.

Hmm. The Tomcat project has a little over GBP 800 in the bank to cover
the up front costs of the next Tomca,t conference.

Here is a thought. I try automatic translation of as many French
messages as I can with the 10k free characters. You review them (you can
filter by automatic translation and then mark them as proof read). If
you think the automatic translations are worthwhile, I get the PMC to
vote on spending some of that money on automatic translation. For
example, if we spent ~$55 we could do automatic translation for just
over 10 complete languages.

Are you up for that?



I was half-kidding, but what I was really thinking of, was a Valve which would 
use some AI
to translate the messages going out, on-the-fly.

The vast majority of the messages which I've seen so far (and attempted to 
translate to
French), are error messages, which either go to the logs (in majority I 
presume), or to
the user as some kind of error response (of which the status codes should be 
identifiable).
A good number of terms in them (50% ?) are either untranslatable, or should not 
be
translated because they point to Classnames and the like (so, "reserved words").
The rest looks like a limited vocabulary and "filler" words, such as "can", 
"cannot",
"disallowed", "parameter", "directory", "request", "response", "committed" ..
The majority of the messages also look like they would make sense only to a 
public of
programmers, which are used to deal with english-speaking-only programming 
languages (only
Java in this case), and (I believe) are not so picky about the finer points of 
style or
syntax (well, at least not the ones I know) ;-).
The thing is also that one really needs such a translation only when things go 
wrong or
during development/testing, so it could be turned off (default) and on only 
when needed,
using some dynamic parameter e.g. (the Manager, anyone ?).

That all looks to me like it may make sense, and it should not be so difficult, 
to apply
some automated (and optional) translation to them on-the-fly.  And such a thing 
may save
*a lot* of maintenance and contributed time over the years, don't you think ?

Note that this is not in any way meant to denigrate the enthousiasm and 
literary talent of
the people having contributed so far. But let's face it : due to the very 
nature of the
beast itself, to the length limit etc., most of what comes out looks like 
Denglish or
Frenglish or Spanglish anyway (and has to be so, to be really helpful). So 
maybe we might
as well bite the bullet..
Also, AI sounds hot again nowadays, and having the first Apache software which 
implements
an automatic on-the-fly translator-assistant for messages should be a hit, no ?

As a final marketing spiel, I would add that the inevitable initial vagaries of 
the
AI-assistant, would probably add much enjoyment to the arduous task of 
debugging one's
code. And if one can switch the language on the fly, it may even fulfill some 
educational
purpose.



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Re: Translation help wanted

[tomcat]

On 13.11.2018 18:12, Mark Thomas wrote:

Removing the [OT] marker as I think this is very much on topic.

On 13/11/2018 15:33, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:

Holy Smoke (Fumée Sacrée | Sagrado Humo | Heilige Rauch) !
How many messages are in that code ?


Currently there are 2747 unique terms.


Seems time to add some AI-translate add-on to the code.


That is supported but it has to be paid for. That was something I was
thinking about. I have 10k characters of free translation (POEditor uses
either Google translate or Microsoft Automatic Translation) with my
POEditor account. The Tomcat messages average ~67.5 characters per
message so those free credits should be able to translate just under 150
messages.

To put it another way, automatic translation of the 2000 untranslated
French messages would cost less than $10 USD.

Hmm. The Tomcat project has a little over GBP 800 in the bank to cover
the up front costs of the next Tomca,t conference.

Here is a thought. I try automatic translation of as many French
messages as I can with the 10k free characters. You review them (you can
filter by automatic translation and then mark them as proof read). If
you think the automatic translations are worthwhile, I get the PMC to
vote on spending some of that money on automatic translation. For
example, if we spent ~$55 we could do automatic translation for just
over 10 complete languages.

Are you up for that?



I was half-kidding, but what I was really thinking of, was a Valve which would use some AI 
to translate the messages going out, on-the-fly.


The vast majority of the messages which I've seen so far (and attempted to translate to 
French), are error messages, which either go to the logs (in majority I presume), or to 
the user as some kind of error response (of which the status codes should be identifiable).
A good number of terms in them (50% ?) are either untranslatable, or should not be 
translated because they point to Classnames and the like (so, "reserved words").
The rest looks like a limited vocabulary and "filler" words, such as "can", "cannot", 
"disallowed", "parameter", "directory", "request", "response", "committed" ..
The majority of the messages also look like they would make sense only to a public of 
programmers, which are used to deal with english-speaking-only programming languages (only 
Java in this case), and (I believe) are not so picky about the finer points of style or 
syntax (well, at least not the ones I know) ;-).
The thing is also that one really needs such a translation only when things go wrong or 
during development/testing, so it could be turned off (default) and on only when needed, 
using some dynamic parameter e.g. (the Manager, anyone ?).


That all looks to me like it may make sense, and it should not be so difficult, to apply 
some automated (and optional) translation to them on-the-fly.  And such a thing may save 
*a lot* of maintenance and contributed time over the years, don't you think ?


Note that this is not in any way meant to denigrate the enthousiasm and literary talent of 
the people having contributed so far. But let's face it : due to the very nature of the 
beast itself, to the length limit etc., most of what comes out looks like Denglish or 
Frenglish or Spanglish anyway (and has to be so, to be really helpful). So maybe we might 
as well bite the bullet..
Also, AI sounds hot again nowadays, and having the first Apache software which implements 
an automatic on-the-fly translator-assistant for messages should be a hit, no ?


As a final marketing spiel, I would add that the inevitable initial vagaries of the 
AI-assistant, would probably add much enjoyment to the arduous task of debugging one's 
code. And if one can switch the language on the fly, it may even fulfill some educational 
purpose.




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Re: Translation help wanted

[Christopher Schultz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

All,

On 11/13/18 10:39, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:
> On 13.11.2018 13:32, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the
>>> Tomcat source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of
>>> new/updated translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get
>>> any updates into the next Tomcat 9 release.
>>> 
>> 
>> Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from
>> but in Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway
>> :D
>> 
> 
> You could add "French (B)" though.  There's more of us than
> Monégasques, and we have some words all our own, for instance in
> the numbers category. I'm sure the Swiss would agree.
> 
> Just kidding..

Here's the thing: lots of countries have their own dialects of various
languages, but the root language is really the same. Nobody in Quebec
is going to read "standard" French and misunderstand "our boat is
sinking and we are all going to die" for "we are performing an
existential thought-experiment"[1].

If the "standard" translation is done well, we don't need fr-* where *
is every country where the French language is spoken. Imagine fr-US-NO
where "NO" is "New Orleans" which speaks ... an odd assortment of
pidgin languages that sound kind of French-y. We don't need an
explosion of translations. There is no need to have an en-BR, en-US
and eu-AU when simply "en" will work.

I'm sure that's the case for most other languages in the world.

There is a significant argument for zh-CN and zh-TW/zh-HK because
mainland China almost exclusively uses Simplifies Chinese while TW/HK
still use Traditional, and there really is a big difference, there.
But I think that's an exception to the general rule.

When providing a translation for a particular language, try not to use
colloquialisms that will only be understood by the people who live in
your own city. This could easily happen in English if the Brits all
used British slang for everything, which is completely indecipherable
to Americans, etc. But it really shouldn't come up very often. There
is always a clear way of saying something without resorting to slang.

If you are tempted to use slang, remember that not everyone will be
able to read it. And if English is the primary language from which
these translations will come, then using slang there will probably
turn into something which (literally) does not translate well into
another language. So, stick to standard, boring language, here.

- -chris

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR0lWICH3rY
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Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

Removing the [OT] marker as I think this is very much on topic.

On 13/11/2018 15:33, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:
> Holy Smoke (Fumée Sacrée | Sagrado Humo | Heilige Rauch) !
> How many messages are in that code ?

Currently there are 2747 unique terms.

> Seems time to add some AI-translate add-on to the code.

That is supported but it has to be paid for. That was something I was
thinking about. I have 10k characters of free translation (POEditor uses
either Google translate or Microsoft Automatic Translation) with my
POEditor account. The Tomcat messages average ~67.5 characters per
message so those free credits should be able to translate just under 150
messages.

To put it another way, automatic translation of the 2000 untranslated
French messages would cost less than $10 USD.

Hmm. The Tomcat project has a little over GBP 800 in the bank to cover
the up front costs of the next Tomcat conference.

Here is a thought. I try automatic translation of as many French
messages as I can with the 10k free characters. You review them (you can
filter by automatic translation and then mark them as proof read). If
you think the automatic translations are worthwhile, I get the PMC to
vote on spending some of that money on automatic translation. For
example, if we spent ~$55 we could do automatic translation for just
over 10 complete languages.

Are you up for that?

Mark

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Re: Translation help wanted

[Rémy Maucherat]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 4:39 PM André Warnier (tomcat) 
wrote:

> On 13.11.2018 13:32, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:
> >
> >> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
> >> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> >> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
> >> next Tomcat 9 release.
> >>
> >
> > Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from but in
> > Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway :D
> >
>
> You could add "French (B)" though.  There's more of us than Monégasques,
> and we have some
> words all our own, for instance in the numbers category. I'm sure the
> Swiss would agree.
>
> Just kidding..
>

Users can add languages, so no problem :)

Rémy

Re: Translation help wanted

[Ludovic Pénet]

Le mardi 13 novembre 2018 à 16:39 +0100, André Warnier (tomcat) a
écrit :
> On 13.11.2018 13:32, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the
> > > Tomcat
> > > source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> > > translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into
> > > the
> > > next Tomcat 9 release.
> > > 
> > 
> > Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from
> > but in
> > Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway :D
> > 
> 
> You could add "French (B)" though.  There's more of us than
> Monégasques, and we have some 
> words all our own, for instance in the numbers category. I'm sure the
> Swiss would agree.
> 
> Just kidding..
I was seriously wondering if it was worth adding French (Quebec), as
our cousins from the other side of the Atlantic like to translate
*everything* in French.

Well, let them request... :-)

Ludovic


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Re: Translation help wanted

[tomcat]

On 13.11.2018 13:32, Rémy Maucherat wrote:

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:


I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
next Tomcat 9 release.



Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from but in
Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway :D



You could add "French (B)" though.  There's more of us than Monégasques, and we have some 
words all our own, for instance in the numbers category. I'm sure the Swiss would agree.


Just kidding..



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[OT] Re: Translation help wanted

[tomcat]

Holy Smoke (Fumée Sacrée | Sagrado Humo | Heilige Rauch) !
How many messages are in that code ?
Seems time to add some AI-translate add-on to the code.

On 13.11.2018 14:50, Mark Thomas wrote:

On 13/11/2018 12:32, Rémy Maucherat wrote:

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:


I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
next Tomcat 9 release.



Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from but in
Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway :D


Done. I wasn't sure about that one. Currently, any contributor can add a
new language. I left it open to let the community set the direction.

More generally...

I don't have any fixed rules in mind for when I'll a new language to the
Tomcat source code but the bar was set pretty low for what we had before
POEditor was being used. My gut feeling is 1-2% is sufficient.

I've just completed the first set of updates. It might be worth checking
the commits on the dev list (e.g. [1]) to make sure I haven't messed
anything up.

The community generated over 300 new translations yesterday which is
fantastic - and new translators continue to join. If you haven't
already, please spread the word.

I'm planning on making any Tomcat committers that sign up, admins for
the project.

Mark


[1] https://tomcat.markmail.org/thread/d5gt43lhgiw2miyc

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Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

On 13/11/2018 14:35, Arjuna Bandara wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I've visited your website,but could not found my native language 'Sinhala'.
> If your system capable of adding new languages please let me know.

It isn't my system. It isn't even the ASF's system. It is an externally
provided service. Neither I nor anyone else at the ASF has control over
which languages are supported by POEditor - although the list does seem
fairly comprehensive.

I think what you are looking for is "Sinhalese" which is available.

Mark


> 
> Regards
> Arjuna
> 
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 5:19 pm Mark Thomas,  wrote:
> 
>> All,
>>
>> Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
>> the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
>> like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
>> Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
>> service for managing the translation of resource files.
>>
>> The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
>> could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
>> adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.
>>
>> If you would like to contribute in this way then the
>> The Tomcat project can be found here:
>>
>> https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl
>>
>> Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
>> interested, please sign up and start contributing.
>>
>> Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
>> the Apache License version 2.
>>
>> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
>> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
>> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
>> next Tomcat 9 release.
>>
>> If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>>
>>
> 


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Re: Translation help wanted

[Arjuna Bandara]

Hi Mark,

I've visited your website,but could not found my native language 'Sinhala'.
If your system capable of adding new languages please let me know.

Regards
Arjuna

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 5:19 pm Mark Thomas,  wrote:

> All,
>
> Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
> the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
> like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
> Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
> service for managing the translation of resource files.
>
> The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
> could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
> adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.
>
> If you would like to contribute in this way then the
> The Tomcat project can be found here:
>
> https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl
>
> Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
> interested, please sign up and start contributing.
>
> Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
> the Apache License version 2.
>
> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
> next Tomcat 9 release.
>
> If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>
>

Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

On 13/11/2018 12:32, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:
> 
>> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
>> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
>> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
>> next Tomcat 9 release.
>>
> 
> Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from but in
> Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway :D

Done. I wasn't sure about that one. Currently, any contributor can add a
new language. I left it open to let the community set the direction.

More generally...

I don't have any fixed rules in mind for when I'll a new language to the
Tomcat source code but the bar was set pretty low for what we had before
POEditor was being used. My gut feeling is 1-2% is sufficient.

I've just completed the first set of updates. It might be worth checking
the commits on the dev list (e.g. [1]) to make sure I haven't messed
anything up.

The community generated over 300 new translations yesterday which is
fantastic - and new translators continue to join. If you haven't
already, please spread the word.

I'm planning on making any Tomcat committers that sign up, admins for
the project.

Mark


[1] https://tomcat.markmail.org/thread/d5gt43lhgiw2miyc

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Re: Translation help wanted

[Rémy Maucherat]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:

> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
> next Tomcat 9 release.
>

Ok. Could you remove "French (MC)" ? No idea where it comes from but in
Monaco they do standard French, and it's too small anyway :D

Rémy

Re: Translation help wanted

[Woonsan Ko]

I've just started Korean as well this morning. :-)
It's only 0.87% now, but it will be done together collectively.

Cheers,

Woonsan

-
[Korean translation]
저도 방금 막 한국어 번역을 오늘 아침에 시작했습니다. ^^
아직 0.87%밖에 안되지만, 함께 완성할 수 있으리라 생각합니다.

그럼,

고운산 드림.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:58 AM Mark Thomas  wrote:
>
> On 12/11/2018 13:44, Geraldo Netto wrote:
> > Hi Mark/Friends,
> >
> > Anyone from Brazil/Portugal to help with translation?
> > I just started :)
>
> I am truly amazed. I sent this email out ~ two hours ago and we already
> have over 130 new and/or improved translations and the count is
> increasing as I type this. I've updated my query a few times to get some
> different views and every time I do that, the total translation count is up.
>
> Please do spread the word about this opportunity to contribute to Apache
> Tomcat.
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Mark
>
> >
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> >
> > Geraldo Netto
> > Sapere Aude => Non dvcor, dvco
> > http://exdev.sf.net/
> >
> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 12:49, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> >
> >> All,
> >>
> >> Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
> >> the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
> >> like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
> >> Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
> >> service for managing the translation of resource files.
> >>
> >> The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
> >> could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
> >> adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.
> >>
> >> If you would like to contribute in this way then the
> >> The Tomcat project can be found here:
> >>
> >> https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl
> >>
> >> Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
> >> interested, please sign up and start contributing.
> >>
> >> Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
> >> the Apache License version 2.
> >>
> >> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
> >> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> >> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
> >> next Tomcat 9 release.
> >>
> >> If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
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Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

On 12/11/2018 14:12, André Warnier (tomcat) wrote:
> On 12.11.2018 14:58, Mark Thomas wrote:
>> On 12/11/2018 13:44, Geraldo Netto wrote:
>>> Hi Mark/Friends,
>>>
>>> Anyone from Brazil/Portugal to help with translation?
>>> I just started :)
>>
>> I am truly amazed. I sent this email out ~ two hours ago and we already
>> have over 130 new and/or improved translations and the count is
>> increasing as I type this. I've updated my query a few times to get some
>> different views and every time I do that, the total translation count
>> is up.
>>
>> Please do spread the word about this opportunity to contribute to Apache
>> Tomcat.
>>
> 
> I've been quite busy in French in the last half-hour. It's quite a
> difficult exercise though, because a lot of technical terms do not have
> a good translation in other languages than English.  It ends up sounding
> very poetic, but I'm wondering what is the target public, and how much
> that will really help them when such a message pops up.
> Sounds a bit like a Spanish restaurant menu translated for English
> tourists.
> 
> E.g. "InputStream" ==> "Flux d'entrée" ? (or "Flux d'entrée
> (InputStream)" ?)

When it comes to a class name (i.e. something you might need to search
for in the source code) I'd lean towards:

"InputStream" ==> "Input Stream (Flux d'entrée)"

But, keep in mind I am a native English speaker who has always found
learning foreign languages difficult so I am probably not the best
person to advise on this. I would do with what you think is best. There
is always scope for further tweaking at a later date.

It is probably worth mentioning something from the dev@ thread where
some of the nuts and bolts of how to do this were discussed. It is easy
for a user for force a particular translation if they wish. There are a
couple of ways to do it depending on exactly what the desired outcome is.

Mark

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Re: Translation help wanted

[tomcat]

On 12.11.2018 14:58, Mark Thomas wrote:

On 12/11/2018 13:44, Geraldo Netto wrote:

Hi Mark/Friends,

Anyone from Brazil/Portugal to help with translation?
I just started :)


I am truly amazed. I sent this email out ~ two hours ago and we already
have over 130 new and/or improved translations and the count is
increasing as I type this. I've updated my query a few times to get some
different views and every time I do that, the total translation count is up.

Please do spread the word about this opportunity to contribute to Apache
Tomcat.



I've been quite busy in French in the last half-hour. It's quite a difficult exercise 
though, because a lot of technical terms do not have a good translation in other languages 
than English.  It ends up sounding very poetic, but I'm wondering what is the target 
public, and how much that will really help them when such a message pops up.

Sounds a bit like a Spanish restaurant menu translated for English tourists.

E.g. "InputStream" ==> "Flux d'entrée" ? (or "Flux d'entrée (InputStream)" ?)



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Re: Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

On 12/11/2018 13:44, Geraldo Netto wrote:
> Hi Mark/Friends,
> 
> Anyone from Brazil/Portugal to help with translation?
> I just started :)

I am truly amazed. I sent this email out ~ two hours ago and we already
have over 130 new and/or improved translations and the count is
increasing as I type this. I've updated my query a few times to get some
different views and every time I do that, the total translation count is up.

Please do spread the word about this opportunity to contribute to Apache
Tomcat.

Thanks all,

Mark

> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Geraldo Netto
> Sapere Aude => Non dvcor, dvco
> http://exdev.sf.net/
> 
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 12:49, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> 
>> All,
>>
>> Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
>> the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
>> like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
>> Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
>> service for managing the translation of resource files.
>>
>> The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
>> could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
>> adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.
>>
>> If you would like to contribute in this way then the
>> The Tomcat project can be found here:
>>
>> https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl
>>
>> Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
>> interested, please sign up and start contributing.
>>
>> Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
>> the Apache License version 2.
>>
>> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
>> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
>> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
>> next Tomcat 9 release.
>>
>> If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>>
>>
> 


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Re: Translation help wanted

[Geraldo Netto]

Hi Mark/Friends,

Anyone from Brazil/Portugal to help with translation?
I just started :)


Kind Regards,

Geraldo Netto
Sapere Aude => Non dvcor, dvco
http://exdev.sf.net/

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 12:49, Mark Thomas  wrote:

> All,
>
> Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
> the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
> like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
> Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
> service for managing the translation of resource files.
>
> The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
> could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
> adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.
>
> If you would like to contribute in this way then the
> The Tomcat project can be found here:
>
> https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl
>
> Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
> interested, please sign up and start contributing.
>
> Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
> the Apache License version 2.
>
> I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
> source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
> translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
> next Tomcat 9 release.
>
> If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>
>

Translation help wanted

[Mark Thomas]

All,

Apache Tomcat includes some translations for error messages and parts of
the user interface - primarily the Manager web application. We would
like to improve the coverage and quality of these translations.
Accordingly, the Tomcat project has been set up on POEditor, a web-based
service for managing the translation of resource files.

The aim is that anyone who wants to contribute to the translations (it
could be anything from fixing a typo in an existing translation to
adding support for a new language) can create an account and contribute.

If you would like to contribute in this way then the
The Tomcat project can be found here:

https://poeditor.com/join/project/NUTIjDWzrl

Anyone should be able to join up as a contributor. If you are
interested, please sign up and start contributing.

Note: All contributions will be taken as being made under the terms of
the Apache License version 2.

I'm aiming to export the translations on a regular basis to the Tomcat
source code. How regularly will depend on the rate of new/updated
translations but as a minimum, I'm aiming to get any updates into the
next Tomcat 9 release.

If you have any difficulties or questions, please ask here.

Thanks,

Mark

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org