Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
My best experiences have been when the designer has full reign to do what they need on the CSS/HTML front on a blank canvas-- obviously after doing wireframes with something like OmniGraffle, Balsamiq or Fireworks. It helps if they add things like static error messages or a highlighted tab so the wicket developer gets a sense of when they will probably do some kind of onComponentTag override to change a class or HTML attribute, etc. Things that screw up designers IMO are repeaters... it's hard sometimes for them to know to what degree the layout structure is created on the server side. For instance I really like the DataBrowser component where it provides pagination, sorting, zebra stripes, etc, but the designer just sees a table wicket:id=sometable and thats it. Obviously they can still style it but the entire structure is hidden from them. OTOH ListViews and others expose more structure to the designer which makes them feel closer to home. It's all a tradeoff really. The biggest rule I give is to just know that any tag with wicket:id in it means that behavior to some extent is controlled on the server side so beware. I like this model as a developer since I really enjoy taking a nice looking static page and making it come alive, as opposed to my own crappy HTML since I can't design worth beans. I've also found subtleties where you really want the design up front, one concrete example was a tabbed pane. In one case the styles were applied as ul li class=selectedaone/a/li ... /ul or another as ul li a class=...one/a /li These are subtleties that the designer can change on the fly rather easily, but in wicket it makes a huge difference. I wouldn't want to force the decision on the designer, this should be their choice. But this is just my 2 cents Jason Igor Vaynberg wrote: really? because we have quiet the opposite experience. we take a wireframe prototype, build it, and have the designer go in afterwards and pretty it up. with only a couple of hours of wicket-related training the designers know what to touch and what not to touch. -igor On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:15 PM, John Armstrong siber...@siberian.org wrote: Its amazing what designers can screw up :) Design can have a huge impact on code. This peaceful co-existence can really only occur if you let the designers go first. If you start with wicket you will either A) tell your designers to go to h*ll daily or B) spend hours and hours re-factoring to meet their 'whims'. The separation of html/code is wonderful in wicket and a key reason I use it and advocate for it but its no substitute for good planning and a 'design first' mentality. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Dave B d...@davebolton.net wrote: While my Wicket usage is very basic at the stage, one of the attractive parts is the code and logic is completely separate to the layout. So your designers can do all the fine tuning and magic without screwing up your work. Cheers, Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
I would just give the artist the freedom to do what ever he wants... and then just refactor what's necessary afterwards. ** Martin 2009/10/27 Ashley Aitken mrhat...@mac.com: Hi All, Just a quick question. Can someone please provide some pointers to Wicket-specific or general CSS information on how best to produce Web pages (dynamic pages generated with Wicket) that a graphics designer can then come in and produce appropriate graphics and CSS style sheets for? I would like to be able to write a Wicket app before the graphic design and detailed layout of the site is done. Of course, some hierarchical organisation of content will be specified but exact locations of items will not. I'm assuming I'd just use lots of divs and CSS classes or similar? I'm no expert in CSS but I've seen what pages look like when a CSS style sheet is missing and assume I will be generating something like that with Wicket. In this case, I guess I could just generate the HTML files by hand, or would people suggest some I use some tool? Thanks for any assistance, pointers, suggestions. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia Skype/iChat: MrHatken (GMT + 8hrs!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
I wouldn't do it. The churn of implementing a UI before its designed is huge. In my opinion your better off watching cartoons for the month it takes the UI to be developed because you'll most likely waste that month trying to adapt your UI implementation to the reality of what is developed by the 'designer'. Unless you really have a solid UI concept it can be more efficient to wait. You can use the time to build your backend business logic, your datastore, your workflow maps and (gasp) assist with the UI development by lending an engineering perspective etc etc. For us Wicket is the end of the process, not the beginning. That may be controversial but it works well for us. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Martin Makundi martin.maku...@koodaripalvelut.com wrote: I would just give the artist the freedom to do what ever he wants... and then just refactor what's necessary afterwards. ** Martin 2009/10/27 Ashley Aitken mrhat...@mac.com: Hi All, Just a quick question. Can someone please provide some pointers to Wicket-specific or general CSS information on how best to produce Web pages (dynamic pages generated with Wicket) that a graphics designer can then come in and produce appropriate graphics and CSS style sheets for? I would like to be able to write a Wicket app before the graphic design and detailed layout of the site is done. Of course, some hierarchical organisation of content will be specified but exact locations of items will not. I'm assuming I'd just use lots of divs and CSS classes or similar? I'm no expert in CSS but I've seen what pages look like when a CSS style sheet is missing and assume I will be generating something like that with Wicket. In this case, I guess I could just generate the HTML files by hand, or would people suggest some I use some tool? Thanks for any assistance, pointers, suggestions. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia Skype/iChat: MrHatken (GMT + 8hrs!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
Thanks Martin and John. I realise that most projects start with Web/GUI storyboards and perhaps even fully graphically designed pages and then add the dynamic stuff. However, I think my situation is somewhat the reverse. I want to design the logical interface myself, header, footers, navigation, and page contents, the hierarchy of contents including any text, but then have the graphic designer make it beautiful. I'm hoping to make it possible for them to do this with a CSS file, and some images (logos, buttons, etc.) I am wishing to know what I can do in the HTML pages I construct to make this most possible, easy, efficient etc. I don't mind the fact that when I am developing the app my pages will not look right, hopefully they will be logically clear, in fact I would prefer that, so I can focus on the logical interface rather than design specifics. As I mentioned, I think of it as creating the pages but leaving the CSS file empty (or at most some basic default). Does that make sense? Sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. Thanks, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
It makes sense what you are asking and it can be done. If you logically construct your div structure and liberally apply divs/spans so that your eventually CSS implementor can uniquely address any element on the page. More spans/divs will be better. For example, if you have an area of the page that has Firstname Lastname Address city, state, postal code my advice would be to wrap it all up with unique id's div div firstname /div div lastname /div div address /div div city /div div state /div div postal /div /div This gives your designer a fighting chance of manipulating the required page elements via CSS later. You can always strip unused tags later. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Ashley Aitken mrhat...@mac.com wrote: Thanks Martin and John. I realise that most projects start with Web/GUI storyboards and perhaps even fully graphically designed pages and then add the dynamic stuff. However, I think my situation is somewhat the reverse. I want to design the logical interface myself, header, footers, navigation, and page contents, the hierarchy of contents including any text, but then have the graphic designer make it beautiful. I'm hoping to make it possible for them to do this with a CSS file, and some images (logos, buttons, etc.) I am wishing to know what I can do in the HTML pages I construct to make this most possible, easy, efficient etc. I don't mind the fact that when I am developing the app my pages will not look right, hopefully they will be logically clear, in fact I would prefer that, so I can focus on the logical interface rather than design specifics. As I mentioned, I think of it as creating the pages but leaving the CSS file empty (or at most some basic default). Does that make sense? Sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. Thanks, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
Oh and don't use an automated tool. It'll add far too much extraneous noise to your files that will complicate the CSS skinning you are after later. Hand code it and then move it around in CSS by hand. This is my opinion. I know our CSS team hates it when someone sends them something done in a design app since it breaks their standard toolsets (browser tweaks etc). Its inefficient but thats the tax to be paid for get ahead of the design process. Another alternative that I have used is to design my UI in a tool like iPlotz (awesome btw), exporting the result and sending that off to HTML/CSS implementation @ RentACoder. It lets you 'design' a UI and gets you 'logically designed html' without the expense of the designer off the bat. Figure a few days to develop the mock-up and a week + $100 to implement the HTML/CSS and get you developing in Wicket without the CSS headaches. This may fit your process much better. Drop me a line off the list if you want a list of great RAC CSS folks that I use regularly. J On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:27 AM, John Armstrong siber...@siberian.org wrote: It makes sense what you are asking and it can be done. If you logically construct your div structure and liberally apply divs/spans so that your eventually CSS implementor can uniquely address any element on the page. More spans/divs will be better. For example, if you have an area of the page that has Firstname Lastname Address city, state, postal code my advice would be to wrap it all up with unique id's div div firstname /div div lastname /div div address /div div city /div div state /div div postal /div /div This gives your designer a fighting chance of manipulating the required page elements via CSS later. You can always strip unused tags later. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Ashley Aitken mrhat...@mac.com wrote: Thanks Martin and John. I realise that most projects start with Web/GUI storyboards and perhaps even fully graphically designed pages and then add the dynamic stuff. However, I think my situation is somewhat the reverse. I want to design the logical interface myself, header, footers, navigation, and page contents, the hierarchy of contents including any text, but then have the graphic designer make it beautiful. I'm hoping to make it possible for them to do this with a CSS file, and some images (logos, buttons, etc.) I am wishing to know what I can do in the HTML pages I construct to make this most possible, easy, efficient etc. I don't mind the fact that when I am developing the app my pages will not look right, hopefully they will be logically clear, in fact I would prefer that, so I can focus on the logical interface rather than design specifics. As I mentioned, I think of it as creating the pages but leaving the CSS file empty (or at most some basic default). Does that make sense? Sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. Thanks, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
RE: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
Hi, I'll weigh in on this discussion if you don't mind. It sounds like you've already made up your mind on how you want to proceed. You can definitely take the approach you describe below, but it removes some of the freedom from the designer if they have to conform to a preconceived styling template that a developer provides. As others had suggested, I would let the designer work in a vacuum (so to speak), coming up with their own styling, and then you can adopt your wicket application to use some or all of the css styling the designer provides. I don't think there is any right answer to this question, its what works best for you and your company. Regards, J.D. -Original Message- From: Ashley Aitken [mailto:mrhat...@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:10 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ... Thanks Martin and John. I realise that most projects start with Web/GUI storyboards and perhaps even fully graphically designed pages and then add the dynamic stuff. However, I think my situation is somewhat the reverse. I want to design the logical interface myself, header, footers, navigation, and page contents, the hierarchy of contents including any text, but then have the graphic designer make it beautiful. I'm hoping to make it possible for them to do this with a CSS file, and some images (logos, buttons, etc.) I am wishing to know what I can do in the HTML pages I construct to make this most possible, easy, efficient etc. I don't mind the fact that when I am developing the app my pages will not look right, hopefully they will be logically clear, in fact I would prefer that, so I can focus on the logical interface rather than design specifics. As I mentioned, I think of it as creating the pages but leaving the CSS file empty (or at most some basic default). Does that make sense? Sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. Thanks, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
Thank you all. So it seems what I am trying to do is not completely impractical. Perhaps though I could let them edit the HTML files as well (as long as they maintain the logical / hierarchical structure I guess). I just wanted to make it easier for them to do things consistently (across pages etc.) and thought CSS styles would be the way to go. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia Skype/iChat: MrHatken (GMT + 8hrs!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
thought CSS styles would be the way to go. Oh, you should definitely use CSS and web standards based markup. You should be able to apply the most basic style to it yourself so you can get the functionality going. Google 3 column layout or something similar for a basic css based layout. While my Wicket usage is very basic at the stage, one of the attractive parts is the code and logic is completely separate to the layout. So your designers can do all the fine tuning and magic without screwing up your work. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Ashley Aitken mrhat...@mac.com wrote: Thank you all. So it seems what I am trying to do is not completely impractical. Perhaps though I could let them edit the HTML files as well (as long as they maintain the logical / hierarchical structure I guess). I just wanted to make it easier for them to do things consistently (across pages etc.) and thought CSS styles would be the way to go. Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia Skype/iChat: MrHatken (GMT + 8hrs!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
Its amazing what designers can screw up :) Design can have a huge impact on code. This peaceful co-existence can really only occur if you let the designers go first. If you start with wicket you will either A) tell your designers to go to h*ll daily or B) spend hours and hours re-factoring to meet their 'whims'. The separation of html/code is wonderful in wicket and a key reason I use it and advocate for it but its no substitute for good planning and a 'design first' mentality. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Dave B d...@davebolton.net wrote: While my Wicket usage is very basic at the stage, one of the attractive parts is the code and logic is completely separate to the layout. So your designers can do all the fine tuning and magic without screwing up your work. Cheers, Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
really? because we have quiet the opposite experience. we take a wireframe prototype, build it, and have the designer go in afterwards and pretty it up. with only a couple of hours of wicket-related training the designers know what to touch and what not to touch. -igor On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:15 PM, John Armstrong siber...@siberian.org wrote: Its amazing what designers can screw up :) Design can have a huge impact on code. This peaceful co-existence can really only occur if you let the designers go first. If you start with wicket you will either A) tell your designers to go to h*ll daily or B) spend hours and hours re-factoring to meet their 'whims'. The separation of html/code is wonderful in wicket and a key reason I use it and advocate for it but its no substitute for good planning and a 'design first' mentality. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Dave B d...@davebolton.net wrote: While my Wicket usage is very basic at the stage, one of the attractive parts is the code and logic is completely separate to the layout. So your designers can do all the fine tuning and magic without screwing up your work. Cheers, Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
Totally divergent now but its an interesting topic. We segment our Designers, HTML implementors and Java developers. Thats probably the key difference. Our designers work in photoshop or illustrator to pretty exacting requirements. This lets us contract out design work to a variety of firms specific to the task/project and they don't have to concern themselves with our requirements. Lots cheaper for us and at the end of the 'Creative Process' we are usually very locked on what is going to be implemented, how it will look and how it all interacts. We then have a stable of devs around the world who convert the layered Photoshop document to CSS very cheaply and very quickly and know how to work to our exact requirements. We usually dismiss the entire design/html team after the initial delivery which is often months before the project is completed. We just don't need them for that project after that stage. For us I've just found it cheaper and more efficient to entirely separate these teams and thats actually a big reason I picked wicket. It lets me do that very easily. $5k for the design process, $200 to convert it to HTML and a month or two of coding by a single developer and you launch, its very assembly line and predictable for me. So I think its a workflow diff. If your Designer is actually a really solid hybrid Designer/CSS Person you can get a good workflow going but I find them an expensive luxury that I (in my business) can't afford anymore. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Igor Vaynberg igor.vaynb...@gmail.com wrote: really? because we have quiet the opposite experience. we take a wireframe prototype, build it, and have the designer go in afterwards and pretty it up. with only a couple of hours of wicket-related training the designers know what to touch and what not to touch. -igor On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:15 PM, John Armstrong siber...@siberian.org wrote: Its amazing what designers can screw up :) Design can have a huge impact on code. This peaceful co-existence can really only occur if you let the designers go first. If you start with wicket you will either A) tell your designers to go to h*ll daily or B) spend hours and hours re-factoring to meet their 'whims'. The separation of html/code is wonderful in wicket and a key reason I use it and advocate for it but its no substitute for good planning and a 'design first' mentality. John- On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Dave B d...@davebolton.net wrote: While my Wicket usage is very basic at the stage, one of the attractive parts is the code and logic is completely separate to the layout. So your designers can do all the fine tuning and magic without screwing up your work. Cheers, Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Wicket HTML before graphics design with CSS ...
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Ashley Aitken mrhat...@mac.com wrote: Hi Igor (et al.), On 28/10/2009, at 12:21 PM, Igor Vaynberg wrote: we take a wireframe prototype, build it, and have the designer go in afterwards and pretty it up. Great, that is what I was hoping for. Any tips on how to do this so that it is easier for the designers? be sure to enable idebugsettings().setOutputMarkupContainerClassName(true), this will make it very easy for the designers to identify which file is responsible for generating any bit of markup they want to tweak. also, be sure there is an easy way for the designer to launch an uptodate build. we keep a set of scripts in our root svn folder that run svn update and launch the app in a mode that creates a new database and populates it with test data. to set up a designer we perform an initial svn checkout, and they are good to go. this means the designer can work on a live app (thanks to wicket's markup reloading feature) and immediately see their changes, and more importantly, if they borked anything. there are times when the designer goes back to the dev team and asks to have a bit of functionality added here and there, like a dynamic css class on a specific tag, etc. the turnaround is usually pretty quick and once the dev checks in the change the designer simply uses the above mentioned script to update their build and move forward. this allows the devs and the designers to pretty much work in parallel past the initial wireframe implementation. Anything special we need to do wrt page layout, CSS, etc.? not really. once you turn on the the debug setting above and explain to your designer how tags like wicket:child, wicket:extend, and wicket:link work they can get around pretty well. eg our guy uses textmate to edit the html files and that works great for him. -igor I'm happy to do the logical UI design, I just want them to be able to make it pretty (as you say). Cheers, Ashley. -- Ashley Aitken Perth, Western Australia mrhatken at mac dot com Skype Name: MrHatken (GMT + 8 Hours!) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
