Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
It's only to put people down when they don't think like you. Being blind has nothing to do with it. On 8/17/20, chalt...@gmail.com wrote: > And the blindness community is also accused of over reacting and being too > sensitive, e.g. the reaction to this petition. IMHO, both statements are > prejudicial. The blindness community is no different then the sighted > community, where you have a lot of people who don't care and a lot of people > who are overly sensitive. > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of Davy Cuppens >> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 3:21 AM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Thats the whole problem of the blind community sit back and relax! And do >> nothing! Moan and complain about bugs on forums for the blind and for the >> rest >> DO NOTHING Nothing at all! >> I live in Belgium and 3 of the most read newspapers in Flanders are >> totally 100% >> inaccessible with voiceover!!! Whenever you open an article the app will >> close >> when using voiceover. >> >> I am the only blind chap that lodged a complaint against the app >> distributors but >> standing alone I can do nothing, therefore I urge people on the list not >> to tell but >> even bomb bomb and bomb again Apples's servers with our accessibility >> bug >> reports! >> >> I have called an Apple employee about the brail bug that when typing >> numbers >> and hearing voiceover speaking other signs or the bug with the phone >> trying to >> unlock the screen when listening to music with wired earpads, they got >> very few >> reports about that. >> For those so I guess 97% of the community being reluctant to report errors >> I'd >> advice maybe to buy a perkins brail machine again for typing purposes and >> an >> abacus as a calculator. >> Davy >> Davy >> -Oorspronkelijk bericht- >> From: Peter Logan >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 3:01 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Can't agree more .. I also installed the beta .. without reading the >> release notes >> .. so it's on me .. not Apple .. and I will wait for it to get fixed .. >> I'm not going to >> scream and holler at Apple for my stupidity .. >> Everyone needs to just relax .. Until this go around .. there wasn't even >> a Watch >> beta .. >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of Donna Casteen >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 2:17 AM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition was >> started >> because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install >> beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device! >> Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the >> beta >> version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions >> of >> any program WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands >> behind their products making them accessible for the blind & those with >> other >> disabilities, does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having >> bugs. >> Nor does this bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public >> beta >> testing process. Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated >> with >> ALL Apple watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of >> the bug. Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on >> fixing >> the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public >> beta >> testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a >> problem >> that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with >> Apple >> watch user(s), who in their poor judgement decided to install the public >> beta on >> a device, in which is used daily. >> >> It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta >> testing >> program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices would >> always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large >> company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very >> small. If >> this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong & >> publically >> criticizing Apple for something that at the time was out of their >> control, but >> Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 >> things 1. >> No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. Apple >> can do >> this by stopping all public beta testing. >> 2. Apple throws in
Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Hi guys, I find the argumentation that Apple does not include BVI in their public betas seems a bit over the top, considering that Apple had warned that the current beta will not be accessible. This can be due to many different variables, including that Apple may be transferring their code base to a new framework that is currently not 100% and requires some more refinements. If you agree to download a beta, the agreement holds for all clauses given by Apple, including warnings, and other bugs that may cause your device not to function until you either a reset or downgrade the OS or a new build comes out. You specifically agree to all these clauses, so complaining after that your device is not working using a beta, I repeat beta installation is like agreeing to participate in a medical trial for some kind of tablet, and you complain after that your bowels are loose. If Apple decided to omit BVI for one build out of many, and have clearly mentioned this, I see no reason for myself to download that beta, since I already have a fully functional device, and trying to go bleeding edge is always an issue no matter what software product. Waiting for the next beta build isn't the end of the world, and life has a lot of other activities to partake in. Isn't it simple just to wait, considering that Apple has given a tremendous amount of time to make mac OS and all its other products accessible on the get go, and that you are going bleeding edge at your own risk? I am a developer myself, and will never install bleeding edge mac OS builds on a critical device as I know I will run the risk of not being able to do certain tasks, because some features are being refined and in that process, some accessibility buttons or features may be temporarily broken. Besides, Apple's commitment to accessibility is not a mystery, and the current switch to a merger between mac OS IOS and others seems like a good direction, that will make our devices clearly more integrated. Finally, if you had purchased the beta and it bricked your device for good, then this might be some justification to be angry, but none of this is the case. Have a great rest of week y'all, Yuma > On 17 Aug 2020, at 4:29 pm, Donna Casteen wrote: > > The reason behind Jonathan creating the petition is twofold: 1. Apple's > warning to voiceover users on Apple watches not to install the beta, leaving > blind individuals unable to beta test. 2. It was brought to Jonathan's > attention that someone had installed the public beta on their watch, > rendering the watch unusable. Even though the petition didn't mention the > above second point. It was part of the basis for starting the petition. Both > points above show that Apple showed a lack of disgard for the blind public > beta testers, by not having a voiceover compatible beta version available for > the Apple watch. > > What confuses me, it seems that blind public beta testers are under the > mindset that sighted public beta testers do not have to deal with major bugs > that render their devices unusable. This isn't true. I suggest that people go > read the developer and beta tester forums on Apple's website. If for no other > reason, to educate yourself. > > >> >> I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, >> says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they >> were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was >> made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to >> a VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted >> then it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and >> dry to me. >> >> -- >> Christopher (AKA CJ) >> Chaltain at Gmail >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >>> Of Simon A Fogarty >>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >>> excluding >>> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >>> >>> Hi Christopher, >>> >>> You should read more into it, >>> >>> The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their >>> primary >>> watch device and voiceover wasn't working >>> >>> Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it >>> is a beta >>> and therefore may cause issues that mean the device wont work correctly, >>> >>> This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims >>> this >>> all on appples attitude towards visually
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
And the blindness community is also accused of over reacting and being too sensitive, e.g. the reaction to this petition. IMHO, both statements are prejudicial. The blindness community is no different then the sighted community, where you have a lot of people who don't care and a lot of people who are overly sensitive. -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of Davy Cuppens > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 3:21 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > Thats the whole problem of the blind community sit back and relax! And do > nothing! Moan and complain about bugs on forums for the blind and for the rest > DO NOTHING Nothing at all! > I live in Belgium and 3 of the most read newspapers in Flanders are totally > 100% > inaccessible with voiceover!!! Whenever you open an article the app will close > when using voiceover. > > I am the only blind chap that lodged a complaint against the app distributors > but > standing alone I can do nothing, therefore I urge people on the list not to > tell but > even bomb bomb and bomb again Apples's servers with our accessibility bug > reports! > > I have called an Apple employee about the brail bug that when typing numbers > and hearing voiceover speaking other signs or the bug with the phone trying to > unlock the screen when listening to music with wired earpads, they got very > few > reports about that. > For those so I guess 97% of the community being reluctant to report errors I'd > advice maybe to buy a perkins brail machine again for typing purposes and an > abacus as a calculator. > Davy > Davy > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > From: Peter Logan > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 3:01 PM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > Can't agree more .. I also installed the beta .. without reading the release > notes > .. so it's on me .. not Apple .. and I will wait for it to get fixed .. I'm > not going to > scream and holler at Apple for my stupidity .. > Everyone needs to just relax .. Until this go around .. there wasn't even a > Watch > beta .. > > > > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of Donna Casteen > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 2:17 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition was started > because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install > beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device! > Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the beta > version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of > any program WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands > behind their products making them accessible for the blind & those with other > disabilities, does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. > Nor does this bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta > testing process. Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with > ALL Apple watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of > the bug. Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing > the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public > beta > testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a problem > that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with > Apple > watch user(s), who in their poor judgement decided to install the public beta > on > a device, in which is used daily. > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta > testing > program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices would > always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large > company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very small. > If > this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong & publically > criticizing Apple for something that at the time was out of their control, > but > Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 > things 1. > No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. Apple can > do > this by stopping all public beta testing. > 2. Apple throws in the towel, giving up on trying to make their products > accessible for such a small population of people. Neither of these scenarios > are > in the best interest of blind iDevice users. > > When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT complain > when
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
I don't think the original post violated any rules about not discussing a beta on this list. The original post wasn’t' talking about any particular feature of a specific beta. Rather it was discussing an Apple policy, namely it's OK to put out a beta that's unusable by all blind people with a warning that blind people shouldn't install the beta, as opposed to sighted users who can install the beta and who may or may not run into an issue making their device unusable. Richard's post was directed at me, where I simply pointed out to a poster asking the moderator to put an end to posts on such frivolous petitions to follow the wishes of the moderator and send their complaints directly to the moderator rather than posting to the list. I wasn't asking for the moderator to intervene myself, and I could care less whether the thread continues or not, since I have a working delete key and email clients that support threads, so in my own mind at least, I wasn't being a hipocrit as Richard said. -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of Davy Cuppens > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 3:27 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > But for that I must say Richard is also right. > This posting was about beta and should have been discussed before first with > the mods of this group. In that point I agree with everyone not liking this > kind of > post. > But please folks do report your problems with Apple and it is good to mention > it > on forums and if bugs are confirmed by others! Please do report to > accessibility > if you want change. > Davy > > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > From: Richard Turner > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 4:44 PM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > At the risk of stepping on toes, all of you who are publicly criticizing > CrazyEyez > are violating the same list rule to write the moderator directly, instead of > posting to the list. > Perhaps the moderator, Mark Taylor, will come back to moderating or appoint > someone else to do so. > > I am simply going to try to mute this thread as it is no longer useful. > Yes, I am doing this publicly but I don't have time to write each individual > to ask > them to cease this nonsense. > > > > Richard > "He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass > himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient > hatreds among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not > granting grace to others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward > Herbert > > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of > sherrywells1...@gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:38 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > Exactly right Christopher. > > As crazyeyez says below, people are dumb. This is true of people like him > or her who insult others over a petition they haven't even bothered to read > for themselves. > > Sherry Wells > > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of > chalt...@gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 5:06 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd > encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post > to this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the > running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, > please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the > list itself." > > I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did > anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such > a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't > participate. Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your > opinion on what someone said about the petition? > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > > > -Original Message- > > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of > > CrazyEyez > > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM > > To: viphone@goo
Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
But for that I must say Richard is also right. This posting was about beta and should have been discussed before first with the mods of this group. In that point I agree with everyone not liking this kind of post. But please folks do report your problems with Apple and it is good to mention it on forums and if bugs are confirmed by others! Please do report to accessibility if you want change. Davy -Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Richard Turner Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 4:44 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org At the risk of stepping on toes, all of you who are publicly criticizing CrazyEyez are violating the same list rule to write the moderator directly, instead of posting to the list. Perhaps the moderator, Mark Taylor, will come back to moderating or appoint someone else to do so. I am simply going to try to mute this thread as it is no longer useful. Yes, I am doing this publicly but I don't have time to write each individual to ask them to cease this nonsense. Richard "He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient hatreds among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not granting grace to others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward Herbert -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of sherrywells1...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:38 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org Exactly right Christopher. As crazyeyez says below, people are dumb. This is true of people like him or her who insult others over a petition they haven't even bothered to read for themselves. Sherry Wells -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of chalt...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 5:06 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post to this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself." I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't participate. Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your opinion on what someone said about the petition? -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of CrazyEyez Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org Honestly, people are dumb. They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something happened. I don't feel bad for you in the least. We should start a petition to remove the idiot who started this whole mess from the list so they don't clog our emails with their wining. Moderator remove this garbage thread please. It shows true stupidity. Where has the comprehension gone? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:16 AM, Donna Casteen wrote: > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This > petition was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s)
Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
The reason behind Jonathan creating the petition is twofold: 1. Apple's warning to voiceover users on Apple watches not to install the beta, leaving blind individuals unable to beta test. 2. It was brought to Jonathan's attention that someone had installed the public beta on their watch, rendering the watch unusable. Even though the petition didn't mention the above second point. It was part of the basis for starting the petition. Both points above show that Apple showed a lack of disgard for the blind public beta testers, by not having a voiceover compatible beta version available for the Apple watch. What confuses me, it seems that blind public beta testers are under the mindset that sighted public beta testers do not have to deal with major bugs that render their devices unusable. This isn't true. I suggest that people go read the developer and beta tester forums on Apple's website. If for no other reason, to educate yourself. > > I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, > says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they > were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was > made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to a > VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted then > it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and dry to > me. > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of Simon A Fogarty >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Hi Christopher, >> >> You should read more into it, >> >> The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their >> primary >> watch device and voiceover wasn't working >> >> Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it is >> a beta >> and therefore may cause issues that mean the device wont work correctly, >> >> This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims >> this >> all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices >> When it >> really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples >> suggestion. >> >> -----Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of chalt...@gmail.com >> Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and >> installed >> the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install the >> beta. >> The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude >> blind people >> from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known >> VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over >> the top, >> but I don't have a problem with this one myself. >> >> -- >> Christopher (AKA CJ) >> Chaltain at Gmail >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of >>> Donna Casteen >>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >>> excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org >>> >>> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition >>> was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING >>> to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is >>> YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta >>> update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they >>> RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The >>> fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making >>> them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does >>> NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug >> prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. >>> Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple >>> watches.
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Your right, but the problem in this case the beta was not accessible. Larry -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Yuma Decaux Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 8:44 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org Just my 50 cents here, but I feel like Apple has been very consistent with including disabled beta testers, in this particular case, the BVI community. I have been beta testing apple software since 2011, and always been included in the program, so I'm not sure where the intent of this petition stems from. If anyone here feels omitted from the program, I'm sure someone in the beta list can recommend you to the program so you can get an invite and start testing. Have a great week, Yuma > On 17 Aug 2020, at 11:24 am, Flor Lynch wrote: > > Yep. > Now imagine if the digital crown didn't work, and sioghted users were told > not to install the public beta for Watch OS7. Does anyone think that they'd > stand for that? > > -Original Message- From: chalt...@gmail.com > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 2:07 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, > says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they > were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was > made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to a > VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted then > it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and dry to > me. > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of Simon A Fogarty >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Hi Christopher, >> >> You should read more into it, >> >> The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to >> their primary watch device and voiceover wasn't working >> >> Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device >> as it is a beta and therefore may cause issues that mean the device >> wont work correctly, >> >> This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and >> blaims this all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users >> of there devices When it really comes down to the users ignorance and not >> listening to apples suggestion. >> >> -----Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of chalt...@gmail.com >> Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and >> installed the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't >> install the beta. >> The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't >> exclude blind people from participating in the public beta because of >> such a serious and known VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of >> petitions are frivolous and over the top, but I don't have a problem with >> this one myself. >> >> -- >> Christopher (AKA CJ) >> Chaltain at Gmail >> >> > -Original Message- >> > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of >> > Donna Casteen >> > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM >> > To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again >> > willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> > >> > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This >> > petition was started because an Apple watch user went against >> > Apple's WARNING to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple >> > device that is YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to >> > have the beta update & installed the beta version on their Apple >> > watch that they RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program >> > WILL have bugs. The fact that App
Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Just my 50 cents here, but I feel like Apple has been very consistent with including disabled beta testers, in this particular case, the BVI community. I have been beta testing apple software since 2011, and always been included in the program, so I'm not sure where the intent of this petition stems from. If anyone here feels omitted from the program, I'm sure someone in the beta list can recommend you to the program so you can get an invite and start testing. Have a great week, Yuma > On 17 Aug 2020, at 11:24 am, Flor Lynch wrote: > > Yep. > Now imagine if the digital crown didn't work, and sioghted users were told > not to install the public beta for Watch OS7. Does anyone think that they'd > stand for that? > > -Original Message- From: chalt...@gmail.com > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 2:07 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, > says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they > were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was > made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to a > VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted then > it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and dry to > me. > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of Simon A Fogarty >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Hi Christopher, >> >> You should read more into it, >> >> The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their >> primary >> watch device and voiceover wasn't working >> >> Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it is >> a beta >> and therefore may cause issues that mean the device wont work correctly, >> >> This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims >> this >> all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices >> When it >> really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples >> suggestion. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of chalt...@gmail.com >> Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and >> installed >> the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install the >> beta. >> The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude >> blind people >> from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known >> VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over >> the top, >> but I don't have a problem with this one myself. >> >> -- >> Christopher (AKA CJ) >> Chaltain at Gmail >> >> > -Original Message- >> > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of >> > Donna Casteen >> > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM >> > To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> > >> > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition >> > was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING >> > to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is >> > YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta >> > update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they >> > RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The >> > fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making >> > them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does >> > NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this > >> > bug >> prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. >
Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Yep. Now imagine if the digital crown didn't work, and sioghted users were told not to install the public beta for Watch OS7. Does anyone think that they'd stand for that? -Original Message- From: chalt...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 2:07 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to a VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted then it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Simon A Fogarty Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org Hi Christopher, You should read more into it, The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their primary watch device and voiceover wasn't working Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it is a beta and therefore may cause issues that mean the device wont work correctly, This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims this all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices When it really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples suggestion. -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of chalt...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and installed the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install the beta. The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude blind people from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over the top, but I don't have a problem with this one myself. -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of > Donna Casteen > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition > was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING > to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is > YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta > update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they > RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The > fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making > them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does > NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this > bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing > the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the > public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing > Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. > The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor > judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is > used daily. > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's > beta testing program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of > the iDevices would always have major bugs, making the iDevices > unusable. Apple is a large company. The population that is blind & who > use Apple products is very small. If this type of placing blame where > it is obvious it does not belong & publically criticizing Apple for > something that at the time was out of their control, but Apple was > working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 things 1. > No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. > Ap
Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
exactly please stop making excuses for Apple. How else would someone test the device. If this was something that gave the sighted people issue this would have been a delayed release. Public beta so why wasn't this done right. Apple also should make the watch down gradable with out needing to send it in. On 8/16/20, chalt...@gmail.com wrote: > I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, > says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they > were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was > made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to > a VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted > then it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and > dry to me. > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of Simon A Fogarty >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Hi Christopher, >> >> You should read more into it, >> >> The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their >> primary >> watch device and voiceover wasn't working >> >> Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it >> is a beta >> and therefore may cause issues that mean the device wont work correctly, >> >> This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims >> this >> all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices >> When it >> really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples >> suggestion. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of chalt...@gmail.com >> Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and >> installed >> the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install >> the beta. >> The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude >> blind people >> from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known >> VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over >> the top, >> but I don't have a problem with this one myself. >> >> -- >> Christopher (AKA CJ) >> Chaltain at Gmail >> >> > -Original Message- >> > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of >> > Donna Casteen >> > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM >> > To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> > >> > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition >> > was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING >> > to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is >> > YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta >> > update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they >> > RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The >> > fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making >> > them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does >> > NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this >> > bug >> prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing >> process. >> > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple >> > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the >> > bug. >> > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing >> > the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the >> > public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing >> > Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. >> > The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor >> > judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is >> > used daily. >&
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to a VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted then it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of Simon A Fogarty > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > Hi Christopher, > > You should read more into it, > > The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their > primary > watch device and voiceover wasn't working > > Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it is > a beta > and therefore may cause issues that mean the device wont work correctly, > > This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims > this > all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices When > it > really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples > suggestion. > > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of chalt...@gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and > installed > the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install the > beta. > The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude > blind people > from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known > VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over the > top, > but I don't have a problem with this one myself. > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > > > -Original Message- > > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of > > Donna Casteen > > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM > > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition > > was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING > > to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is > > YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta > > update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they > > RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The > > fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making > > them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does > > NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug > prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. > > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple > > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. > > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing > > the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the > > public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing > > Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. > > The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor > > judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is used > > daily. > > > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's > > beta testing program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of > > the iDevices would always have major bugs, making the iDevices > > unusable. Apple is a large company. The population that is blind & who > > use Apple products is very small. If this type of placing blame where > > it is obvious it does not belong & publically criticizing Apple for > > something that at the time was out of their control, but Apple was working > toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 things 1. > > No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. > > Apple can
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Hi Christopher, You should read more into it, The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their primary watch device and voiceover wasn't working Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it is a beta and therefore may cause issues that mean the device wont work correctly, This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims this all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices When it really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples suggestion. -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of chalt...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and installed the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install the beta. The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude blind people from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over the top, but I don't have a problem with this one myself. -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of > Donna Casteen > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition > was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING > to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is > YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta > update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they > RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The > fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making > them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does > NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug > prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing > the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the > public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing > Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. > The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor > judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is used > daily. > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's > beta testing program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of > the iDevices would always have major bugs, making the iDevices > unusable. Apple is a large company. The population that is blind & who > use Apple products is very small. If this type of placing blame where > it is obvious it does not belong & publically criticizing Apple for > something that at the time was out of their control, but Apple was working > toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 things 1. > No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. > Apple can do this by stopping all public beta testing. 2. Apple throws > in the towel, giving up on trying to make their products accessible for such > a small population of people. > Neither of these scenarios are in the best interest of blind iDevice users. > > When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT > complain when your device stops working! > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: > mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
At the risk of stepping on toes, all of you who are publicly criticizing CrazyEyez are violating the same list rule to write the moderator directly, instead of posting to the list. Perhaps the moderator, Mark Taylor, will come back to moderating or appoint someone else to do so. I am simply going to try to mute this thread as it is no longer useful. Yes, I am doing this publicly but I don't have time to write each individual to ask them to cease this nonsense. Richard "He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient hatreds among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not granting grace to others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward Herbert -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of sherrywells1...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:38 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org Exactly right Christopher. As crazyeyez says below, people are dumb. This is true of people like him or her who insult others over a petition they haven't even bothered to read for themselves. Sherry Wells -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of chalt...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 5:06 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post to this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself." I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't participate. Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your opinion on what someone said about the petition? -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of > CrazyEyez > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > Honestly, people are dumb. > They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something > happened. > I don't feel bad for you in the least. > We should start a petition to remove the idiot who started this whole > mess from the list so they don't clog our emails with their wining. > Moderator remove this garbage thread please. > It shows true stupidity. > Where has the comprehension gone? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:16 AM, Donna Casteen > wrote: > > > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This > > petition was started > because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER > install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main > device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & > installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & > USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The fact that > Apple is a company that stands behind their products making them > accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does NOT > exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug > prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing > the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the > public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing > Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. > The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor > judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is used > daily. > > > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's > > beta testing > program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices > would always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a > large company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products > is
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Exactly right Christopher. As crazyeyez says below, people are dumb. This is true of people like him or her who insult others over a petition they haven't even bothered to read for themselves. Sherry Wells -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of chalt...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 5:06 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post to this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself." I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't participate. Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your opinion on what someone said about the petition? -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of > CrazyEyez > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > Honestly, people are dumb. > They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something > happened. > I don't feel bad for you in the least. > We should start a petition to remove the idiot who started this whole > mess from the list so they don't clog our emails with their wining. > Moderator remove this garbage thread please. > It shows true stupidity. > Where has the comprehension gone? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:16 AM, Donna Casteen > wrote: > > > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This > > petition was started > because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER > install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main > device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & > installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & > USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The fact that > Apple is a company that stands behind their products making them > accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does NOT > exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug > prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing > the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the > public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing > Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. > The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor > judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is used > daily. > > > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's > > beta testing > program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices > would always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a > large company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products > is very small. If this type of placing blame where it is obvious it > does not belong & publically criticizing Apple for something that at > the time was out of their control, but Apple was working toward fixing: Apple > is in the end going to do 1 of 2 things 1. > No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. > Apple can do this by stopping all public beta testing. 2. Apple throws > in the towel, giving up on trying to make their products accessible for such > a small population of people. > Neither of these scenarios are in the best interest of blind iDevice users. > > > > When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT > > complain > when your device stops working! > > > > -- > > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > > list, or if you > feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners > or moderator
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Donna, Imagine that apple has been released a version for the iphone, with no voiceover enabled. What will you do? Jonathan Mosen started this petition, and he is right. Apple is sending a message that’s blind people is not a priority. I hope, really hope, that’s its just a beta, and will not be an official release or will not move to the iphone. I'm encareging you all to sign this petition at http://chng.it/T8yHvmCwKw Afik. -Original Message- From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Donna Casteen Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 3:51 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org Jonathan, the individual who started the petition, isn't the person who installed the public beta on his Apple watch. The individual who installed the public beta knows Jonathan in someway. I am searching, but can't recall if the individual who installed the public beta complained on a group.io email group or in a Facebook group. The public beta was not accessible to voiceover users for ONLY one week. This voiceover bug occurred 1-2 weeks ago, at the beginning of the public beta testing Or shortly after the public beta testing started. One week not being able to beta test isn't the end of the world. Apple has since fixed the problem to my knowledge, so all is well for voiceover public beta testers who are beta testing using their Apple watch. Those voiceover public beta testers using an iPhone or an iPad was not affected. So voiceover users were NOT excluded in public beta testing altogether. Giving these facts the petition is unwarranted. > > If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd > encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post to > this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the running > of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please > contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list > itself." > > I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did > anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such > a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't participate. > Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your opinion on > what someone said about the petition? > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of CrazyEyez >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Honestly, people are dumb. >> They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something >> happened. >> I don't feel bad for you in the least. >> We should start a petition to remove the idiot who started this whole >> mess from the list so they don't clog our emails with their wining. >> Moderator remove this garbage thread please. >> It shows true stupidity. >> Where has the comprehension gone? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:16 AM, Donna Casteen >> wrote: >>> >>> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This >>> petition was started >> because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER >> install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main >> device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & >> installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & >> USE daily! Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The fact >> that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making them >> accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does NOT >> exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug >> prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process. >> Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple >> watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. >> Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing >> the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the >> public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing >> Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. >> The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor >> judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in
Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
Jonathan, the individual who started the petition, isn't the person who installed the public beta on his Apple watch. The individual who installed the public beta knows Jonathan in someway. I am searching, but can't recall if the individual who installed the public beta complained on a group.io email group or in a Facebook group. The public beta was not accessible to voiceover users for ONLY one week. This voiceover bug occurred 1-2 weeks ago, at the beginning of the public beta testing Or shortly after the public beta testing started. One week not being able to beta test isn't the end of the world. Apple has since fixed the problem to my knowledge, so all is well for voiceover public beta testers who are beta testing using their Apple watch. Those voiceover public beta testers using an iPhone or an iPad was not affected. So voiceover users were NOT excluded in public beta testing altogether. Giving these facts the petition is unwarranted. > > If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd > encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post to > this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the running > of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please > contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list > itself." > > I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did > anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such > a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't participate. > Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your opinion on > what someone said about the petition? > > -- > Christopher (AKA CJ) > Chaltain at Gmail > >> -Original Message- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf >> Of CrazyEyez >> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully >> excluding >> disabled people from public betas · Change.org >> >> Honestly, people are dumb. >> They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something >> happened. >> I don't feel bad for you in the least. >> We should start a petition to remove the idiot who started this whole mess >> from >> the list so they don't clog our emails with their wining. >> Moderator remove this garbage thread please. >> It shows true stupidity. >> Where has the comprehension gone? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:16 AM, Donna Casteen >> wrote: >>> >>> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition was >>> started >> because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install >> beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device! Of >> course, >> this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the beta version on >> their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any >> program >> WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their >> products making them accessible for the blind & those with other >> disabilities, >> does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this >> bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing >> process. >> Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple >> watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. >> Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing the >> voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public beta >> testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a problem >> that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with >> Apple >> watch user(s), who in their poor judgement decided to install the public >> beta on >> a device, in which is used daily. >>> >>> It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta >>> testing >> program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices would >> always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large >> company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very >> small. If >> this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong & >> publically >> criticizing Apple for something that at the time was out of their control, >> but >> Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 >> things 1. >> No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. Apple can >> do >> this by stopping all public beta testing. 2. Apple throws in the towel, >> giving up on >> trying to make their products accessible for such a small population of >> people. >> Neither of these scenarios are in the best interest of blind iDevice users. >>> >>> When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT complain >> when your device
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post to this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself." I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't participate. Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your opinion on what someone said about the petition? -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of CrazyEyez > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > Honestly, people are dumb. > They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something > happened. > I don't feel bad for you in the least. > We should start a petition to remove the idiot who started this whole mess > from > the list so they don't clog our emails with their wining. > Moderator remove this garbage thread please. > It shows true stupidity. > Where has the comprehension gone? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:16 AM, Donna Casteen > wrote: > > > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition was > > started > because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install > beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device! Of course, > this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the beta version on > their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program > WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their > products making them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, > does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this > bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing > process. > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing the > voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public beta > testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a problem > that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with > Apple > watch user(s), who in their poor judgement decided to install the public beta > on > a device, in which is used daily. > > > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta > > testing > program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices would > always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large > company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very small. > If > this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong & publically > criticizing Apple for something that at the time was out of their control, > but > Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 > things 1. > No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. Apple can > do > this by stopping all public beta testing. 2. Apple throws in the towel, > giving up on > trying to make their products accessible for such a small population of > people. > Neither of these scenarios are in the best interest of blind iDevice users. > > > > When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT complain > when your device stops working! > > > > -- > > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > > you > feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > > > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: > mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ > > --- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/9A2DA42F-D0E0-4072-8A23- > 91F22261BFC7%40gmail.com. > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. > >
RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and installed the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install the beta. The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude blind people from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over the top, but I don't have a problem with this one myself. -- Christopher (AKA CJ) Chaltain at Gmail > -Original Message- > From: viphone@googlegroups.com On Behalf > Of Donna Casteen > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully > excluding > disabled people from public betas · Change.org > > I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘♀️ This petition was started > because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install > beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device! Of course, > this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the beta version on > their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily! Beta versions of any program > WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their > products making them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, > does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this > bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing > process. > Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple > watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug. > Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing the > voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public beta > testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a problem > that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with > Apple > watch user(s), who in their poor judgement decided to install the public beta > on > a device, in which is used daily. > > It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta > testing > program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices would > always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large > company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very small. > If > this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong & publically > criticizing Apple for something that at the time was out of their control, > but > Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 > things 1. > No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. Apple can > do > this by stopping all public beta testing. 2. Apple throws in the towel, > giving up on > trying to make their products accessible for such a small population of > people. > Neither of these scenarios are in the best interest of blind iDevice users. > > When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT complain > when your device stops working! > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel > that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators > directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: > mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email > to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/9A2DA42F-D0E0-4072-8A23- > 91F22261BFC7%40gmail.com. -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit
