Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Rossi's behavior is quite coeherent with a soft-paranoid version. Scam is not defendable. let's imagine the option. MY say, there are no clients, or fake client (actor, friend of scam). if no client, no cash from clients. (as say MV here) where from ? from investors ? no public share sales... where is the scam ? no room for it. if client is real : - that client agree to pay billions if it works, big bucks. - he have to be suspicious because he know that CF is officially a scam or a mistake. at least shareholders ask him for Due Diligence. - he can pay a billion, so he cam pay a good lab engineer, and even a magician to check all. - he can bring meters - he was accepted to supervise the experiment touching the pipes and boxes, allowed to installe meters where possible, outside only, but Rossi cannot refuse any reasonabledemand - the client have put meters every where useful for him - he have checked all he want out of the boxes - he use also his own body captors (noise, heat, smell) to confirm mesures - saying that the client can bee fooled by wet steam, is taking him stupid. the client is not a scientist, but a business engineer prepared to see a fraud. - however he might don't care about the precision of measure, provides that +/- 20% it is what he want... even having half the power is a happy end... you don't drop your chicken if it produce only small golden eggs. so: - if the machine consume much, sure he know it , - if it has stored heat in thermal mass, he can feel it (smell, room temp, IR rays, thermometers) however: - rossi and the client don't care about us... like in poker, if you don't pay, you don't see. moreover we are not even on the table. - doubt is good for Rossi and his client, because it slow competitors and finance market reaction. - rossi is a man who fight against the unbelief, the trash mafia, the government politicians and ecologists, nearly get ruined, get to jail, see the physicists community treat regular scientific studies as fraud without considering facts... he cannot be easily trusting... he have to be paranoid, rebel, stubborn, dubious, the behavior of Rossico seems strange, but first it can be analyzed logical if you assert that there is a running pattent and commercial war. but I'm even thinking that all Rossi behavior is not only rational, but simply emotional... he have so much pain, hate, furor, pride, fear, that his behavior is more like the one of a wild roof cat than a bedroom cat. anyway, his behavior is far from a plain old scam. at worst he might be (badly) lying about the performance of his baby... it is a bit what he did, and admit, about the instability of his reactor. NI partneship is thus a good business answer (as an engineer I'll do the same, to fight DGT, or else as my former schoolmates and Eng. schools). as I say befor, the proposed scenarii for scam, error, and so on ar not credible... as incredible as the 9/11 complot. too many people in the scam, too much complex for the goal, to much budget... should go to Occam's Barber Shop.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Cude's careful examination of the details of the October 28 demo prove that excess heat was specifically not established by the data, according to his obvious, simple analysis of how fast a large increase in reactor core temperature could heat the large thermal mass of the cooling water flow -- proponents are ignoring or talking past his points, which he has clarified patiently over and over in recent weeks. I agree Rossi is deluded and caught up in many neurotic patterns. within mutual service, Rich Murray On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:02 AM, Alain dit le Cycliste alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi's behavior is quite coeherent with a soft-paranoid version. Scam is not defendable. let's imagine the option. MY say, there are no clients, or fake client (actor, friend of scam). if no client, no cash from clients. (as say MV here) where from ? from investors ? no public share sales... where is the scam ? no room for it. if client is real : - that client agree to pay billions if it works, big bucks. - he have to be suspicious because he know that CF is officially a scam or a mistake. at least shareholders ask him for Due Diligence. - he can pay a billion, so he cam pay a good lab engineer, and even a magician to check all. - he can bring meters - he was accepted to supervise the experiment touching the pipes and boxes, allowed to installe meters where possible, outside only, but Rossi cannot refuse any reasonabledemand - the client have put meters every where useful for him - he have checked all he want out of the boxes - he use also his own body captors (noise, heat, smell) to confirm mesures - saying that the client can bee fooled by wet steam, is taking him stupid. the client is not a scientist, but a business engineer prepared to see a fraud. - however he might don't care about the precision of measure, provides that +/- 20% it is what he want... even having half the power is a happy end... you don't drop your chicken if it produce only small golden eggs. so: - if the machine consume much, sure he know it , - if it has stored heat in thermal mass, he can feel it (smell, room temp, IR rays, thermometers) however: - rossi and the client don't care about us... like in poker, if you don't pay, you don't see. moreover we are not even on the table. - doubt is good for Rossi and his client, because it slow competitors and finance market reaction. - rossi is a man who fight against the unbelief, the trash mafia, the government politicians and ecologists, nearly get ruined, get to jail, see the physicists community treat regular scientific studies as fraud without considering facts... he cannot be easily trusting... he have to be paranoid, rebel, stubborn, dubious, the behavior of Rossico seems strange, but first it can be analyzed logical if you assert that there is a running pattent and commercial war. but I'm even thinking that all Rossi behavior is not only rational, but simply emotional... he have so much pain, hate, furor, pride, fear, that his behavior is more like the one of a wild roof cat than a bedroom cat. anyway, his behavior is far from a plain old scam. at worst he might be (badly) lying about the performance of his baby... it is a bit what he did, and admit, about the instability of his reactor. NI partneship is thus a good business answer (as an engineer I'll do the same, to fight DGT, or else as my former schoolmates and Eng. schools). as I say befor, the proposed scenarii for scam, error, and so on ar not credible... as incredible as the 9/11 complot. too many people in the scam, too much complex for the goal, to much budget... should go to Occam's Barber Shop.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Rich, JC does say a lot of things about Oct. 28, mostly having to climb mirrors because, really, he does not seem to have ever so much as boiled water in a pot, and the data from Oct. 28 are particularly few. Regardless, he has only the secret investors bound to tight secrecy contracts as hypothesis for whom Rossi is trying to defraud. And, if what he says is correct, Rossi must be scamming somebody or planning to scam somebody. That is the part I don't see. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com wrote: Cude's careful examination of the details of the October 28 demo prove that excess heat was specifically not established by the data, according to his obvious, simple analysis of how fast a large increase in reactor core temperature could heat the large thermal mass of the cooling water flow -- proponents are ignoring or talking past his points, which he has clarified patiently over and over in recent weeks. I agree Rossi is deluded and caught up in many neurotic patterns. within mutual service, Rich Murray On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:02 AM, Alain dit le Cycliste alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi's behavior is quite coeherent with a soft-paranoid version. Scam is not defendable. let's imagine the option. MY say, there are no clients, or fake client (actor, friend of scam). if no client, no cash from clients. (as say MV here) where from ? from investors ? no public share sales... where is the scam ? no room for it. if client is real : - that client agree to pay billions if it works, big bucks. - he have to be suspicious because he know that CF is officially a scam or a mistake. at least shareholders ask him for Due Diligence. - he can pay a billion, so he cam pay a good lab engineer, and even a magician to check all. - he can bring meters - he was accepted to supervise the experiment touching the pipes and boxes, allowed to installe meters where possible, outside only, but Rossi cannot refuse any reasonabledemand - the client have put meters every where useful for him - he have checked all he want out of the boxes - he use also his own body captors (noise, heat, smell) to confirm mesures - saying that the client can bee fooled by wet steam, is taking him stupid. the client is not a scientist, but a business engineer prepared to see a fraud. - however he might don't care about the precision of measure, provides that +/- 20% it is what he want... even having half the power is a happy end... you don't drop your chicken if it produce only small golden eggs. so: - if the machine consume much, sure he know it , - if it has stored heat in thermal mass, he can feel it (smell, room temp, IR rays, thermometers) however: - rossi and the client don't care about us... like in poker, if you don't pay, you don't see. moreover we are not even on the table. - doubt is good for Rossi and his client, because it slow competitors and finance market reaction. - rossi is a man who fight against the unbelief, the trash mafia, the government politicians and ecologists, nearly get ruined, get to jail, see the physicists community treat regular scientific studies as fraud without considering facts... he cannot be easily trusting... he have to be paranoid, rebel, stubborn, dubious, the behavior of Rossico seems strange, but first it can be analyzed logical if you assert that there is a running pattent and commercial war. but I'm even thinking that all Rossi behavior is not only rational, but simply emotional... he have so much pain, hate, furor, pride, fear, that his behavior is more like the one of a wild roof cat than a bedroom cat. anyway, his behavior is far from a plain old scam. at worst he might be (badly) lying about the performance of his baby... it is a bit what he did, and admit, about the instability of his reactor. NI partneship is thus a good business answer (as an engineer I'll do the same, to fight DGT, or else as my former schoolmates and Eng. schools). as I say befor, the proposed scenarii for scam, error, and so on ar not credible... as incredible as the 9/11 complot. too many people in the scam, too much complex for the goal, to much budget... should go to Occam's Barber Shop.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
I'm not sure anyone has pointed out the IP advantages to Rossi of selling his initial plants to the US military. Unlike the Chinese army or the Iranian republican guard, the US military is not in the business of reverse engineering, or of lowest cost procurement. For mission critical components, they can pretty much purchase what they need, subject to it fitting into the petty cash requirement. When your HVAC cost in two theaters of water is 20 billion plus (http://www.npr.org/2011/06/25/137414737/among-the-costs-of-war-20b-in-air-conditioning), a few millions for Rossi devices is modest. Petty, even. This gets Rossi devices into the field for testing and use by a willing customer. This moves him _far_ down the curve towards broad utility. Engineering is always best tested in the field, the muddier the field -- the better. And once tested -- and eventually acknowledged -- by such a customer, his IP prospects improve dramatically. From both an intellectual and a political point of view. I am not going to speculate which is most important. As for Rossi's declarations of not having the military for a customer, if you are in high technology they _will_ be a customer if you have a competitive product. Filtering through Rossi's declarations about this, and imagining what he was thinking (as opposed to what he translated into English), one could read I won't sell this as weapons technology, but if it keeps soldiers warm or cold or more effective, that's OK with me. If that sounds like rationalization, welcome to the world of getting things done on a shoe string as an entrepreneur. “He must needs go that the Devil drives.” Shakespeare: All’s Well That-Ends Well, i. 3. Let's hope that his bargain is not Faustian. -- Sean
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
That's enough with the personal attacks. So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their identity secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October 28th test? Am I clear? On Nov 25, 2011, at 2:49, Marcello Vitale mvit...@ucsbalum.net wrote: MY says there is no client. Let me explore the logical consequences of this revelation. Because it's a fact. MY said it, and it fits Occam's razor, which says (I am sure I don't need to remind you) that whatever MY points to as the simplest theory, is indeed true. Therefore, October 28 was all a big show, with actors and dancers. Yet, Rossi is not turning around and selling retail, or selling stocks. Not making money in any way. Not using the advertisement he paid for, if you will. It's as if a company would launch a huge ad campaign, but not put the advertised product in stores. Buy my ecat! Available 2013! Please, don't send money now! Ah, sure, except he is already making money: from those secret investors bound to strict secrecy agreements who paid him in secret money drawn in a secret currency nobody else knows about, which of course would at least explain the financial crisis. Then, why did Rossi have to make that show, anyway? Show the investors he is selling? Then they would start asking for a return on the investment. No, no, the RD money leeches are always just a few weeks away from a salable product. It doesn't compute. Maybe he just wanted to laugh at us? Or maybe he wanted to make sure MY, certainly his most feared competitor, was kept busy writing about it and not do any work? But if Rossi is a scammer, the competitor of a scammer is another scammer. OK, I guess I'm onto something, I think all the passages in the logical chain do make sense, if one starts from the assumption that Rossi is a scammer, arriving to the conclusion that MY is also a scammer seems almost unavoidable. Which water car are you selling, MY? MY theory is the simplest! :- :-) :-) On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. OK. So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a living. If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the mechanism. You can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary. You can examine it first non-destructively any way you want including the examination Rossi forbade Celani to do during a demo. I can't believe for enough money you couldn't break anything Rossi could put in. And remember, Rossi is limited by safety issues. Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to them as his flagship client? My theory is the simplest: that there is no client.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Rossi has said the 1st customer does US military research, their 1 MW E-Cat is installed in the US and they have ordered 13 more. Who they are working for is anybodies guess. To me it seems clear they were hired to test the E-Cat at a place away from Rossi (who did the install, is doing the maintenance and has virtually unlimited access to the plant) and write a detailed report for their client. AG On 11/26/2011 2:35 AM, Charles Hope wrote: That's enough with the personal attacks. So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their identity secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October 28th test? Am I clear? On Nov 25, 2011, at 2:49, Marcello Vitale mvit...@ucsbalum.net mailto:mvit...@ucsbalum.net wrote: MY says there is no client. Let me explore the logical consequences of this revelation. Because it's a fact. MY said it, and it fits Occam's razor, which says (I am sure I don't need to remind you) that whatever MY points to as the simplest theory, is indeed true. Therefore, October 28 was all a big show, with actors and dancers. Yet, Rossi is not turning around and selling retail, or selling stocks. Not making money in any way. Not using the advertisement he paid for, if you will. It's as if a company would launch a huge ad campaign, but not put the advertised product in stores. Buy my ecat! Available 2013! Please, don't send money now! Ah, sure, except he is already making money: from those secret investors bound to strict secrecy agreements who paid him in secret money drawn in a secret currency nobody else knows about, which of course would at least explain the financial crisis. Then, why did Rossi have to make that show, anyway? Show the investors he is selling? Then they would start asking for a return on the investment. No, no, the RD money leeches are always just a few weeks away from a salable product. It doesn't compute. Maybe he just wanted to laugh at us? Or maybe he wanted to make sure MY, certainly his most feared competitor, was kept busy writing about it and not do any work? But if Rossi is a scammer, the competitor of a scammer is another scammer. OK, I guess I'm onto something, I think all the passages in the logical chain do make sense, if one starts from the assumption that Rossi is a scammer, arriving to the conclusion that MY is also a scammer seems almost unavoidable. Which water car are you selling, MY? MY theory is the simplest! :- :-) :-) On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com mailto:lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. OK. So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a living. If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the mechanism. You can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary. You can examine it first non-destructively any way you want including the examination Rossi forbade Celani to do during a demo. I can't believe for enough money you couldn't break anything Rossi could put in. And remember, Rossi is limited by safety issues. Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to them as his flagship client? My theory is the simplest: that there is no client.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their identity secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October 28th test? Where did you hear that the purchaser insisted on the publicity? As far as I know only Rossi wanted publicity, and not much of that. He did not get much, because he did not reveal much. That does not seem to bother him. I think most of the invitations to the Oct. 28 event were presents to his friends. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their identity secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October 28th test? Where did you hear that the purchaser insisted on the publicity? As far as I know only Rossi wanted publicity, and not much of that. He did not get much, because he did not reveal much. That does not seem to bother him. I think most of the invitations to the Oct. 28 event were presents to his friends. You mean like the invitation to Peter Svensson, the AP reporter who wrote no report about it?* *
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: As far as I know only Rossi wanted publicity, and not much of that. He did not get much, because he did not reveal much. That does not seem to bother him. I think most of the invitations to the Oct. 28 event were presents to his friends. You mean like the invitation to Peter Svensson, the AP reporter who wrote no report about it?* * I do not know if Svensson is a friend of Rossi's, but yes, that is what I meant when I said Rossi did not get publicity because he did not reveal much. There was no much for Svensson to report, as I have pointed out several times. Lewan published only a short report. At LENR-CANR.org I added a few sentences and a link to Lewan. On one sense this was an historic event, but from the point of view of an organization like the AP it was not newsworthy. Without knowing the name of customer and the particulars there is no story here. If an AP reporter had been present at the first test of a transistor at Bell Labs on Dec. 24, 1947, I doubt the reporter would have anything newsworthy to say. It did not look like much and it did not prove much, from a mass media point of view. No one could have predicted it would become a practical technology on that day. Many other breakthroughs were needed, such as zone refining, and it was not a foregone conclusion they would be made. Here is Brattain's lab notebook from that day: http://www.porticus.org/bell/pdf/brattain_lab_notebook.pdf It is unassuming, and matter-of-fact. It resembles Fioravanti's HVAC test sheet from Oct. 28. Notice that they did not confirm it was an amplifier until Dec. 24, by observing oscillations. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: On one sense this was an historic event, but from the point of view of an organization like the AP it was not newsworthy. If they had believed this was really a one megawatt nuclear fusion reactor using nickel and hydrogen as fuel in low temperature nuclear reaction, you bet your bippy it would be news -- BIG news. Without knowing the name of customer and the particulars there is no story here. Correct. But that's because it was not credible. If an AP reporter had been present at the first test of a transistor at Bell Labs on Dec. 24, 1947, I doubt the reporter would have anything newsworthy to say. It did not look like much and it did not prove much, from a mass media point of view. Bad analogy -- if the E-cat were real, this could have been a spectacular demonstration with lots of steam and noise and spouting and fuss. It's not a transistor. It's a MEGAWATT PLANT. The steam should have powered some sort of engine, heated a room, lifted some weights, done SOMETHING. And the generator should have been shut down (Rossi could have and should have powered his instruments from the mains through a metered supply). There would have been something to see if the machine really was powered by cold fusion instead of diesel.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
I wish Peter Hagelstein replied: That's OK, Mr Rossi, fine! No more public test! Let me put it this way: would you let me test before buy as you advertise?!. That would have put AR in the corner, no escape. Is MIT afraid of being fouled ending up paying $2M for a scam? If it works those $2M would have been a great investment. Business 101... All of this seems a drama where actors keep forgetting the script! mic 2011/11/24 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. Rossi realizes it and is pumping (intended) out as many as he can hoping to make his nest egg. If all is real, Rossi will not get a patent here, but he could likely make a few million before the pipeline gets clogged with competitors. I understand what he is doing and recommend he continues. If all this is really real, the window for AR will close in a few months. T
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
As a potential purchaser, I have had no problems with Rossi agreeing for us to test our E-Cat. $2m is pocket change for MIT. I suggest there a lot more that went on than what has been revealed. Many US based LENR firms will be doing everything they can, calling up all their IOUs to slow Rossi down. It is just business after all. AG On 11/24/2011 7:35 PM, Michele Comitini wrote: I wish Peter Hagelstein replied: That's OK, Mr Rossi, fine! No more public test! Let me put it this way: would you let me test before buy as you advertise?!. That would have put AR in the corner, no escape. Is MIT afraid of being fouled ending up paying $2M for a scam? If it works those $2M would have been a great investment. Business 101... All of this seems a drama where actors keep forgetting the script! mic 2011/11/24 Terry Blantonhohlr...@gmail.com: It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. Rossi realizes it and is pumping (intended) out as many as he can hoping to make his nest egg. If all is real, Rossi will not get a patent here, but he could likely make a few million before the pipeline gets clogged with competitors. I understand what he is doing and recommend he continues. If all this is really real, the window for AR will close in a few months. T
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official from the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the state. What did he expect the official to say? It was obvious they would ask him to have the reactors tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone else imagine that officials in Massachusetts will do business with him, or allow him to sell reactors, without first having MIT vet his claims? That's delusional! If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
but good way to generate PR that will attract more credulous investors -- strike a bold pose of independence, thumbing nose at the establishment... just helping Mary Yugo... On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:51 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official from the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the state. What did he expect the official to say? It was obvious they would ask him to have the reactors tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone else imagine that officials in Massachusetts will do business with him, or allow him to sell reactors, without first having MIT vet his claims? That's delusional! If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
That is really a stain in his reputation, at least for a few months. I was going to put my name in the 10K e-cat market research... Not anymore. It doesn't matter if he really has something real if he cannot prove that he can provide a reliable, functional and safe product. 2011/11/24 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
My question: Did Sen. Bruce Tarr ask Rossi any questions to which Rossi provided surprising (to B. Tarr) answers? When an attorney calls a witness, he knows the answers before he asks the questions. The same applies to public hearings where an elected official invests his political capital in calling a witness. It is understandable, perhaps, why Hagelstein didn't act as an attorney or politician, and Rossi was open to give him a surprising answer (even though it was consistent with his other recent statements). On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Someone from Boston just called me to say that Rossi met with Peter Hagelstein at the state capital, and Rossi said exactly what he's been saying all along: No more tests. Let the customers decide. Etc. Peter offered to do a pure black box tests but Rossi turned him down. In other words it was a waste of time and an embarrassment. The state representative probably regrets he ever heard of the man. Why did Rossi even go? What was he thinking? He does at least make it clear that he cannot reveal anything about this because he has no patent. He does not actually say I do not want widespread publicity because I have no patent -- I want to cash in while I can but I am pretty sure that is what he is thinking. What else? He is between a rock and a hard place. On a different subject . . . Assuming Rossi actually did sell that one megawatt react to someone in the US, it is likely to be the US military. No other entity would think of operating a nuclear reactor of unknown etiology without a permit and without any UL certification. Rossi's statement that there will be no more testing is ridiculous. Before he sells to ordinary customers there will have to be a ton of testing by UL and many safety agencies, as I have often pointed out. Defkalion understands this. They have often cited the need for thorough testing and approval before they can begin selling. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 8:51 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. I dunno. Assuming they paid for the ticket, it was a cheap way for him to meet with his business buddies in NH. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Jed said .But he was meeting with an elected official from the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the state. Uh, Jed, MIT is private. Or maybe you meant UMass? On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official from the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the state. What did he expect the official to say? It was obvious they would ask him to have the reactors tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone else imagine that officials in Massachusetts will do business with him, or allow him to sell reactors, without first having MIT vet his claims? That's delusional! If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Jed sez: If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. I suspect Rossi would beg to differ. Seems to me that Rossi has always been operating on Rossi time. From Terry, I dunno. Assuming they paid for the ticket, it was a cheap way for him to meet with his business buddies in NH. :-) His ticket wuz paid for??? Wow! Sign me up! ;-) But more seriously, it seems more sensible for me to speculate that Rossi was on another one of his business fishing trips - feeling out the waters so to speak. Meanwhile, we all have a pretty good idea of what Rossi thinks of the so-called importance of achieving academic/scientific credibility. A great irony in all of this is the fact that achieving scientific credibility, for now, could actually end up hindering his current business plans, at least in the short term. That seems to be a potential modus operandi that might explain his eccentric behavior, a behavior that seems to drive certain Vort members (and the scientific community) to distraction. ;-) Meanwhile, we all wait with baited breath to see what kind of a dog and pony show Defkalion plans on unveiling soon... to a theatre near you. Will they impress us, or disappoint us? We have been disappointed so many times before. I'm sure we probably are in store for more disappointment before the fat lady finally gets on stage to sing. In the meantime I recommend that at least for today we all sit at the table and pass the meat and gravy amongst each other, secure in the knowledge that the adventure continues. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Happy T-day to the US folk. Don't overdo it :-))) On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:54 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Jed sez: If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. I suspect Rossi would beg to differ. Seems to me that Rossi has always been operating on Rossi time. From Terry, I dunno. Assuming they paid for the ticket, it was a cheap way for him to meet with his business buddies in NH. :-) His ticket wuz paid for??? Wow! Sign me up! ;-) But more seriously, it seems more sensible for me to speculate that Rossi was on another one of his business fishing trips - feeling out the waters so to speak. Meanwhile, we all have a pretty good idea of what Rossi thinks of the so-called importance of achieving academic/scientific credibility. A great irony in all of this is the fact that achieving scientific credibility, for now, could actually end up hindering his current business plans, at least in the short term. That seems to be a potential modus operandi that might explain his eccentric behavior, a behavior that seems to drive certain Vort members (and the scientific community) to distraction. ;-) Meanwhile, we all wait with baited breath to see what kind of a dog and pony show Defkalion plans on unveiling soon... to a theatre near you. Will they impress us, or disappoint us? We have been disappointed so many times before. I'm sure we probably are in store for more disappointment before the fat lady finally gets on stage to sing. In the meantime I recommend that at least for today we all sit at the table and pass the meat and gravy amongst each other, secure in the knowledge that the adventure continues. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Jed we don't know what happened at those meetings. All you have revealed it what one person said. There is a LOT more going on here that has been revealed. Rossi is old school Southern European and keeps his cards VERY close to his chest. Yanks blast everything all over the web. Very different styles of doing business. BTW Rossi has no problems with me doing Black Box testing of a E-Cat and he knows I'm on Vortex. It's real, so you doubters get over it. You are wrong. AG On 11/25/2011 12:21 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official from the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the state. What did he expect the official to say? It was obvious they would ask him to have the reactors tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone else imagine that officials in Massachusetts will do business with him, or allow him to sell reactors, without first having MIT vet his claims? That's delusional! If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: BTW Rossi has no problems with me doing Black Box testing of a E-Cat and he knows I'm on Vortex. It's real, so you doubters get over it. You are wrong. We doubters will only be wrong if you actually get an E-cat to test-- black box or otherwise. Do you have a schedule yet?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
You are way beyond being an open minded doubter. AG On 11/25/2011 7:40 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: BTW Rossi has no problems with me doing Black Box testing of a E-Cat and he knows I'm on Vortex. It's real, so you doubters get over it. You are wrong. We doubters will only be wrong if you actually get an E-cat to test-- black box or otherwise. Do you have a schedule yet?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: You are way beyond being an open minded doubter. Why? You have never seen an actual E-cat in person have you? You have never touched one much less tested one? What makes you so sure you will ever get one to test? Nobody else has done an independent test *ever* and has reported on it. Why are you special?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
A friend wrote to me: Only Andrea could meet with a senator to ask for financial incentives to build a factory and refuse to allow them to test, huh? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
I have read almost all the papers, looked very carefully at all the videos and photographs, observed how the mains power was applied and saw the Blue Box and E-Cat sat on tables that would eliminate any hidden external power source. There was a single mains connection to the Blue Box and the power being consumed via that power point was measured. If you take the time to look, you can see what I saw. Additionally had there not been ONE single Ni-H LENR research paper showing significant excess heat then I would be very skeptical. But that is NOT the case. There are more than ample papers that easily convince me that Ni-H LENR reactions are real. Going from the fact that Ni-H LENR reactions are real, it is not a big leap in faith that Rossi has worked since 2007 on enhancing the Ni-H reaction to the level he has produced today. It is so easy for you, who has probably never gotten your hands dirty in doing product development, to invent hypothetical BS to try to discredit the hard won yards of work Rossi and Focardi have done. AG On 11/25/2011 7:52 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: You are way beyond being an open minded doubter. Why? You have never seen an actual E-cat in person have you? You have never touched one much less tested one? What makes you so sure you will ever get one to test? Nobody else has done an independent test *ever* and has reported on it. Why are you special?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Heh! When I was a Technical Manager at ITT our lab reported directly to Park Ave headquarters. Our new (we had 5 in as many years) technical director went to a critical meeting in Brussels, and came back gloating about how he had thrashed them. A week later we were reporting to Brussels. - Original Message - Rossi is old school Southern European and keeps his cards VERY close to his chest. Yanks blast everything all over the web. Very different styles of doing business.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Marcello Vitale mvit...@ucsbalum.net wrote: Uh, Jed, MIT is private. Or maybe you meant UMass? You are right. It is a 19th century land grant college, like Cornell. Technically private but a lot of it is tied in with the state. (Cornell has schools entirely funded by New York, and annual funding, and it offers reduced tuition for New York state residents -- or it used to,anyway.) So much of MIT is funded by the government I forgot that it is officially private. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
We don't know that was what went down. AG On 11/25/2011 8:03 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: A friend wrote to me: Only Andrea could meet with a senator to ask for financial incentives to build a factory and refuse to allow them to test, huh? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
So far, nobody seems to be able to predict Rossi's actions as well as Mary can. The rest of us are stumped, but her hypothesis explains the behavior. On Nov 24, 2011, at 17:07, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: We don't know that was what went down. AG On 11/25/2011 8:03 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: A friend wrote to me: Only Andrea could meet with a senator to ask for financial incentives to build a factory and refuse to allow them to test, huh? - Jed
[Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet. There is no need for the pseudosceptics to look for conspiracy theories.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote: Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet. There is no need for the pseudosceptics to look for conspiracy theories. Complete nonsense. That issue is easily solved by black box testing using a reliable and trusted friend of cold fusion or a university laboratory with secret clearance. And while Rossi would have to keep his hands and instruments out of such tests, there is no reason why he or his people could not be there to protect his IP during the testing. I am sure he doesn't sleep with a gun in front of his laboratory every night. He also doesn't build megawatt plants by himself. So Rossi has to trust some people. Why not trust a university to do a quick test with proper safeguards for the IP? It happens all the time. The explanation also does not explain why Rossi did not take the advice of sympathetic people like Jed Rothwell to improve his test methods. Equally relevant, there is no protection of IP whatever if Rossi really sold a system as he claims. In that instance, the customer can easily take apart the devices and submit them to analysis and reverse engineering. If there are written agreements, it's low risk to break them, especially if it's done in a foreign country and far away. There is a lot of money to be made by that sort of activity and without a doubt, someone will do it if the E-cat is real and Rossi actually sells them. Again, Rossi can't stand guard in front of a customer's E-cat. And agreements will not protect him, especially absent a patent. The idea that secrecy motivates Rossi because of a need to protect IP is way less likely than that the motivation is simply that he's committing fraud.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
some peopl here imagin that rossi can be a scammer... It does not seems credible, according tou his strange behavior itself. if you try to profile him from his behavior, you find more a weak-paranoid style persister in process com. He does not behave like the usual weak-sociopath style promoter in process com... one can undestand his paranoid tendencies if you accept that he have fighet for his uncommon (crasy) idias, and have been screwed by the systems and some good citizens (mafia?) in his first business... his visible oack of sociopathic skils, lack of seduction, commercial behavior, theatrical show, make him probably bad in manipulation, politic, and sale. probably he have also a weak passive-agressive style rebel, that make hime choose against everybody opinion projects... also making him break relationships in a lunatic way... his behavior with defkalion, breaking, talking, telling how he tried to manipulate DGT... is a bit pathetic, between paranoia and teanager rebelion... anyway to do that job, so long, so crazy, despite critics , persister and rebel competences are needed... for a scam you need more sociopath carpet-saler. his lack of rigor in communication and measures, mean a bad competence in obsessionnal style thinker in proces com... asuming my profiling is right, the behavior of rossi is quite logic. I'm not suprised that he is bad in sale, in business relation, in measures... however he is anoug stubborn and crazy to keep working on a suicidal project and succeed... after that his weak paranoia (a bit a kind of realism, knowing his situation) will make him secret, unstable partner... other competences will make hime not a good engineer... don't ask to someone who fight againt the systems for 20 years, and get to jail because of that, to be an easy man. 2011/11/24 Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet. There is no need for the pseudosceptics to look for conspiracy theories.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
I have not found any strange behavior in my commercial dealings with Rossi. I totally understand and accept what he asks of his customers and he accepts my requirements on him. I know he works 16 hours a day as I do (if needed) as there are about 8 hours a day when there is no almost immediate email response. The commercial offerings and terms he has made to me, TOTALLY eliminate any chance of fraud. I agree that he is wasting his time engaging type kickers and those in sheep's clothing asking for tests when all they really seek is to steal his IP. AG On 11/25/2011 9:47 AM, Alain dit le Cycliste wrote: some peopl here imagin that rossi can be a scammer... It does not seems credible, according tou his strange behavior itself. if you try to profile him from his behavior, you find more a weak-paranoid style persister in process com. He does not behave like the usual weak-sociopath style promoter in process com... one can undestand his paranoid tendencies if you accept that he have fighet for his uncommon (crasy) idias, and have been screwed by the systems and some good citizens (mafia?) in his first business... his visible oack of sociopathic skils, lack of seduction, commercial behavior, theatrical show, make him probably bad in manipulation, politic, and sale. probably he have also a weak passive-agressive style rebel, that make hime choose against everybody opinion projects... also making him break relationships in a lunatic way... his behavior with defkalion, breaking, talking, telling how he tried to manipulate DGT... is a bit pathetic, between paranoia and teanager rebelion... anyway to do that job, so long, so crazy, despite critics , persister and rebel competences are needed... for a scam you need more sociopath carpet-saler. his lack of rigor in communication and measures, mean a bad competence in obsessionnal style thinker in proces com... asuming my profiling is right, the behavior of rossi is quite logic. I'm not suprised that he is bad in sale, in business relation, in measures... however he is anoug stubborn and crazy to keep working on a suicidal project and succeed... after that his weak paranoia (a bit a kind of realism, knowing his situation) will make him secret, unstable partner... other competences will make hime not a good engineer... don't ask to someone who fight againt the systems for 20 years, and get to jail because of that, to be an easy man. 2011/11/24 Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co mailto:cr...@overunity.co Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet. There is no need for the pseudosceptics to look for conspiracy theories.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
2011/11/25 Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co: Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet. This is unfortunate but true point. The economical benefit for Rossi to keep everything in secret is gargantuan. Because if he can keep everything in secret he could come up with decisive technological advantage and get long term dominant share in the markets with or without patent protection. This way he could gather several hundred gigadollar revenues, depending on how fast he can scale up mass-production. With this kind of Slim-like potential property, Rossi could do whatever he wants to the world. If I were a Rossi, I would end all the absolute poverty from the Earth, using ecat sales revenues to finance global basic income. World is curious place, that sometimes single ambitious person can do alone more than the rest of the world population put together. –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Complete nonsense. That issue is easily solved by black box testing using a reliable and trusted friend of cold fusion or a university laboratory with secret clearance. You misunderstand. The technical issues would be resolved, but this would probably not help resolve his patent and intellectual property problems. It would probably make them worse. As McKubre says, Rossi is trying to keep things ambiguous to fend off the competition. Without a patent he will have nothing. He needs time to get a patent, get more funding, and pull ahead of his competition. Why not trust a university to do a quick test with proper safeguards for the IP? It happens all the time. Because there would be no business advantage to doing this. The explanation also does not explain why Rossi did not take the advice of sympathetic people like Jed Rothwell to improve his test methods. It does explain this. I agree with Mike McKubre and others about his motivations. Look, I do not think this is a good business strategy. I admit he faces a tough situation with few good choices. However, you are completely wrong when you say this is crazy behavior, or there is no reason for it, or it is unprecedented. It makes sense as a business strategy. You may not like it, but it makes sense. You apparently have little understanding of business or intellectual property, so you probably do not understand why this make sense. Equally relevant, there is no protection of IP whatever if Rossi really sold a system as he claims. Yes, there is. Or there could be, anyway, with a patent pending and a good sales contract. If he sold the reactors to the U.S. military he has nothing to worry about. Those people are scrupulously honest, in my experience. In that instance, the customer can easily take apart the devices and submit them to analysis and reverse engineering. If there are written agreements, it's low risk to break them, especially if it's done in a foreign country and far away. This may be the case, but Rossi needs money. He has no good choices here. It is between bad and worse. The rest of us are in no position to second-guess his business strategy. The idea that secrecy motivates Rossi because of a need to protect IP is way less likely than that the motivation is simply that he's committing fraud. You think that because you do not understand intellectual property and you are predisposed to think it is fraud. There is no evidence of fraud here. None whatever. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: We don't know that was what went down. Nothing much went down. I would have heard from Hagelstein and others if anything interesting had happened. I do not think there are any secret arrangements underway. Elected officials do not make secret business arrangements. Rossi said no tests. That was the end of the conversation. No sane elected official would endorse a technical claim or move to allocate state funding to Rossi without testing. That is unthinkable. I understand why Rossi does not want tests. He is trying to keep his results ambiguous. However, until he decides to allow tests, he should not visit elected officials and waste their time. He should not waste Hagelstein's time. He damn well should have known they cannot do business with him without tests. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Complete nonsense. That issue is easily solved by black box testing using a reliable and trusted friend of cold fusion or a university laboratory with secret clearance. You misunderstand. The technical issues would be resolved, but this would probably not help resolve his patent and intellectual property problems. It would probably make them worse. As McKubre says, Rossi is trying to keep things ambiguous to fend off the competition. SNIP I'm curious. How do you think Rossi protects his IP when he sells 100 of the E-cats in a batch to an unnamed client. Do you think he can be assured that nobody at that client's establishment (and it would have to be of some size to accomodate and test much less use a megawatt generator) -- do you think nobody there will want to earn megabucks by stealing Rossi's IP while Rossi isn't around? The A-bomb's Manhattan Project was well known and understood by the Russians through spies despite its unprecedented secrecy as to the details of the physics package or bomb core. Even if the client is military, Rossi has no reason to think his secrets are safe. The only safe thing he could have done was nothing until he had the patent protection. If the client is private, any employee could rip off Rossi, even if the company didn't it which would be far from assured. The risk is much greater than the risk involved in submitting a proper patent app including disclosures and getting proper tests, neither of which Rossi has ever done. There is no smoking gun for fraud. But Rossi behaves exactly and consistently like free energy scammers who in the past ripped off millions from investors. The only difference is that he is bolder with what he allows to be tested but he always sets rigid bounds that make the test inconclusive-- he's just better and more clever at it than scammers like Steorn.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat system, feeding a heat engine system that will deliver Ac kWs from the heated diathermic oil. We will then feed enough of the generated Ac kWs back into the E-Cat to maintain it in power mode while using the excess Ac kWs generation to light up a few BIG lights and leave it running for a few days. We then have a E-Cat proof system in a 20 ft container that we can demo to conservative politicians and power industry guys. The rest will be history. AG On 11/25/2011 11:05 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: We don't know that was what went down. Nothing much went down. I would have heard from Hagelstein and others if anything interesting had happened. I do not think there are any secret arrangements underway. Elected officials do not make secret business arrangements. Rossi said no tests. That was the end of the conversation. No sane elected official would endorse a technical claim or move to allocate state funding to Rossi without testing. That is unthinkable. I understand why Rossi does not want tests. He is trying to keep his results ambiguous. However, until he decides to allow tests, he should not visit elected officials and waste their time. He should not waste Hagelstein's time. He damn well should have known they cannot do business with him without tests. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat system, feeding a heat engine system that will deliver Ac kWs from the heated diathermic oil. We will then feed enough of the generated Ac kWs back into the E-Cat to maintain it in power mode while using the excess Ac kWs generation to light up a few BIG lights and leave it running for a few days. We then have a E-Cat proof system in a 20 ft container that we can demo to conservative politicians and power industry guys. The rest will be history. That would be good. When do you expect delivery of the E-cat portion of the system?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious. How do you think Rossi protects his IP when he sells 100 of the E-cats in a batch to an unnamed client. I answered that question already. Please reread my message. There is no smoking gun for fraud. But Rossi behaves exactly and consistently like free energy scammers who in the past ripped off millions from investors. He also behaves exactly like a legitimate businessman who does not have a patent, and is having difficulty getting one. Everyone knows it is difficult to get a patent for cold fusion. As far as I know, it is impossible in the U.S. You have often pointed to behavior by Rossi and others and said this is what a scammer does. You fail to notice that the examples you give are also what ordinary, legitimate business people do. You said that having a web site and an order form is suspicious. You said there is nothing in the order form that indicates other people have ordered the product before. Order forms never indicate that. To put it in abstract terms: When you point to attribute A and say it distinguishes condition X from Y, you should first check to be sure that A does not fit X or Y equally well. In this venn diagram, you are pointing to C and saying it is part of A but not B: [image: image.png] - Jed image.png
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
You mean he's changed his mind on selling you a 100KW? Instead, he'll work with and sell you a custom version of a multi-cat? (Alternative universe : you hinted that you have a yacht, so he knows you're an easy mark) - Original Message - We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat system
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I understand why Rossi does not want tests. He is trying to keep his results ambiguous. However, until he decides to allow tests, he should not visit elected officials and waste their time. He should not waste Hagelstein's time. He damn well should have known they cannot do business with him without tests. He may waste their time, but it drums up interest in his ECAT. Rossi would never waste his own time. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud. AG On 11/25/2011 11:21 AM, Alan Fletcher wrote: You mean he's changed his mind on selling you a 100KW? Instead, he'll work with and sell you a custom version of a multi-cat? (Alternative universe : you hinted that you have a yacht, so he knows you're an easy mark) - Original Message - We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat system
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud. OK, I'll bite. Why not? And again, when is this test expected to take place?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
What we need is for the entire system (E-Cat and Heat Engine) to fit into a single container. When we agree on the design, we propose to ship our container (with the diathermic oil friendly heat engine installed) to the E-Cat factory and have the E-Cat half of the container populated. Then we will link the 2 sub systems, get it all working and perform a closed loop test as indicated. After the test is passed, we will pay Rossi for the E-Cats. He fully understand that and has basically agreed to the process. Our course we need to finalize the details, need to get it down on paper, signed and money paid into the Escrow account. I have no doubts this will happen. Now it is just an engineering job to put it all together and to get everything into a container, probably a 40 fter, make a workable and liveable layout (probably put in a R/C A/C system to keep it cool inside, a few lights, desks and PCs, etc) that we can drop ship and quickly do self contained demos anywhere we desire. Probably put up a sign saying: Come and have a look. No wires or tubes or radiation or pollution or noise but running for days on a tiny amount of Hydrogen while lighting up a few BIG lights. AG On 11/25/2011 11:15 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat system, feeding a heat engine system that will deliver Ac kWs from the heated diathermic oil. We will then feed enough of the generated Ac kWs back into the E-Cat to maintain it in power mode while using the excess Ac kWs generation to light up a few BIG lights and leave it running for a few days. We then have a E-Cat proof system in a 20 ft container that we can demo to conservative politicians and power industry guys. The rest will be history. That would be good. When do you expect delivery of the E-cat portion of the system?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
WTF? I take it you did not read what our setup is to be and that you do not understand what closed loop means? AG On 11/25/2011 11:46 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud. OK, I'll bite. Why not? And again, when is this test expected to take place?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Rossi has offered to install 1 MW of E-Cats into one half of our supplier 40 ft container, which will have the heat to Ac kW conversion system in the other half. Delivery of the 1 MW diathermic oil E-Cat system is 3 months as per his usual quote. We are now searching for suitable diathermic oil to Ac kW conversion systems. AG On 11/25/2011 12:05 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: WTF? I take it you did not read what our setup is to be and that you do not understand what closed loop means? AG On 11/25/2011 11:46 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud. OK, I'll bite. Why not? And again, when is this test expected to take place?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious. How do you think Rossi protects his IP when he sells 100 of the E-cats in a batch to an unnamed client. I answered that question already. Please reread my message. He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. There is no smoking gun for fraud. But Rossi behaves exactly and consistently like free energy scammers who in the past ripped off millions from investors. He also behaves exactly like a legitimate businessman who does not have a patent, and is having difficulty getting one. Everyone knows it is difficult to get a patent for cold fusion. As far as I know, it is impossible in the U.S. But Rossi says it's not cold fusion. The patent application he tried lacked the catalyst. How can he get protection for the catalyst if he doesn't reveal it in the application? Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to them as his flagship client?
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. Well, perhaps he does, but as I said, dealing a large, highly reputable institution is a better guarantee. As far as I know, it is impossible in the U.S. But Rossi says it's not cold fusion. It does not matter what he says it is. I am sure the P.O. and everyone else will recognize it is cold fusion. Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to them as his flagship client? I suppose he changed his mind. That is his prerogative. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.comwrote: On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. OK. So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a living. If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the mechanism. You can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary. You can examine it first non-destructively any way you want including the examination Rossi forbade Celani to do during a demo. I can't believe for enough money you couldn't break anything Rossi could put in. And remember, Rossi is limited by safety issues. Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to them as his flagship client? My theory is the simplest: that there is no client.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: WTF? I take it you did not read what our setup is to be and that you do not understand what closed loop means? No, I do. And I read what you wrote. And yes, a test of the E-cat in which it ran without outside power for a long time and powered lights (or some other load) is exactly what is needed. The point was that far as I know, nobody knows you. I guess you could establish your and your companies credentials and credibility but I don't think you've done that. Thank you for the time estimate. I am guessing that by three months from now, Rossi will have a new story and you will not have a new E-cat but, as always, time will tell.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
MY says there is no client. Let me explore the logical consequences of this revelation. Because it's a fact. MY said it, and it fits Occam's razor, which says (I am sure I don't need to remind you) that whatever MY points to as the simplest theory, is indeed true. Therefore, October 28 was all a big show, with actors and dancers. Yet, Rossi is not turning around and selling retail, or selling stocks. Not making money in any way. Not using the advertisement he paid for, if you will. It's as if a company would launch a huge ad campaign, but not put the advertised product in stores. Buy my ecat! Available 2013! Please, don't send money now! Ah, sure, except he is already making money: from those secret investors bound to strict secrecy agreements who paid him in secret money drawn in a secret currency nobody else knows about, which of course would at least explain the financial crisis. Then, why did Rossi have to make that show, anyway? Show the investors he is selling? Then they would start asking for a return on the investment. No, no, the RD money leeches are always just a few weeks away from a salable product. It doesn't compute. Maybe he just wanted to laugh at us? Or maybe he wanted to make sure MY, certainly his most feared competitor, was kept busy writing about it and not do any work? But if Rossi is a scammer, the competitor of a scammer is another scammer. OK, I guess I'm onto something, I think all the passages in the logical chain do make sense, if one starts from the assumption that Rossi is a scammer, arriving to the conclusion that MY is also a scammer seems almost unavoidable. Which water car are you selling, MY? MY theory is the simplest! :- :-) :-) On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. OK. So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a living. If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the mechanism. You can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary. You can examine it first non-destructively any way you want including the examination Rossi forbade Celani to do during a demo. I can't believe for enough money you couldn't break anything Rossi could put in. And remember, Rossi is limited by safety issues. Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to them as his flagship client? My theory is the simplest: that there is no client.
[Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
Someone from Boston just called me to say that Rossi met with Peter Hagelstein at the state capital, and Rossi said exactly what he's been saying all along: No more tests. Let the customers decide. Etc. Peter offered to do a pure black box tests but Rossi turned him down. In other words it was a waste of time and an embarrassment. The state representative probably regrets he ever heard of the man. Why did Rossi even go? What was he thinking? He does at least make it clear that he cannot reveal anything about this because he has no patent. He does not actually say I do not want widespread publicity because I have no patent -- I want to cash in while I can but I am pretty sure that is what he is thinking. What else? He is between a rock and a hard place. On a different subject . . . Assuming Rossi actually did sell that one megawatt react to someone in the US, it is likely to be the US military. No other entity would think of operating a nuclear reactor of unknown etiology without a permit and without any UL certification. Rossi's statement that there will be no more testing is ridiculous. Before he sells to ordinary customers there will have to be a ton of testing by UL and many safety agencies, as I have often pointed out. Defkalion understands this. They have often cited the need for thorough testing and approval before they can begin selling. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
I do not know if the UL certifies industrial boilers, but I am sure someone does. It seems they do small scale generators, maybe not the biggies: http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/power/microturbines/tests/ I am sure that Rossi reactors scaled for home use will require UL certification. You will not be able to buy home insurance without it. Certification is not a magic wand that automatically prevents problems. Someone certified the Fukushima reactors and the seawall. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On 2011-11-23 22:31, Jed Rothwell wrote: Someone from Boston just called me to say that Rossi met with Peter Hagelstein at the state capital, and Rossi said exactly what he's been saying all along: I actually had some hope for this meeting. It looks like I'll have to lower my expectations next time. But surely this isn't the whole story, is it? I doubt Rossi went there just to say hello. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
From Jed: ... Why did Rossi even go? What was he thinking? He does at least make it clear that he cannot reveal anything about this because he has no patent. He does not actually say I do not want widespread publicity because I have no patent -- I want to cash in while I can but I am pretty sure that is what he is thinking. What else? He is between a rock and a hard place. I'm puzzled. Maybe I missed something crucial about the itinerary. I thought one of the reasons Rossi went was to see if he could to drum up some corporate interest in his technology for the state of Massachusetts. Sign'a here, please! If so, I wonder if any corporate interests were present. I wonder if any were interested kicking a few tires for themselves. Just wondering. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: I'm puzzled. Maybe I missed something crucial about the itinerary. I thought one of the reasons Rossi went was to see if he could to drum up some corporate interest in his technology for the state of Massachusetts. I do not know why he went, but his conduct will win him the Frozen Boot Award. I cannot understand why he does these things! I have not heard from Peter Hagelstein. Not sure I want to. Poor Peter! Imagine being subjected to that in front of a state representative. I would be mortified. Maybe there is more to it. I just heard this in a 5-minute phone call. Summary: He said the same stuff he has been saying all along in his blog and in the magazines. Well, at least he is consistent. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
From Jed ... Maybe there is more to it. I just heard this in a 5-minute phone call. Summary: He said the same stuff he has been saying all along in his blog and in the magazines. Well, at least he is consistent. IMHO, (and granted it might be an incorrect opinion) I can't help but speculate that Rossi didn't go there just to turn Hagelstein's offer down. Since Rossi has continued to be stalwart in his refusal to perform science on his technology - methinks there probably IS more to this stew than a snub. I suspect Rossi's stew involves fishing around for additional corporate interest. I wonder if any nibbled. Follow the money! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
2011/11/23 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Someone from Boston just called me to say that Rossi met with Peter Hagelstein at the state capital, and Rossi said exactly what he's been saying all along: No more tests. Let the customers decide. Etc. Peter offered to do a pure black box tests but Rossi turned him down. In other words it was a waste of time and an embarrassment. The state representative probably regrets he ever heard of the man. Why did Rossi even go? What was he thinking? Indeed this is a puzzle. Right now it seems that if Defkalion is anything more than big words, then there might be the saddest thing possible for Rossi that Defkalion steals the show with first public validation test of commercial scale cold fusion reactor. And Rossi is just mentioned in reference notes. Also Ahern and Miles may be ready to steal the credits from Rossi. I think that Rossi has went just too far with his commercial market oriented philosophy. It was good idea to fix the errors of Fleischmann and come into publicity only with proper proofs for commercial validity of the technology, but enough is enough. He should have published everything in October. –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. Rossi realizes it and is pumping (intended) out as many as he can hoping to make his nest egg. If all is real, Rossi will not get a patent here, but he could likely make a few million before the pipeline gets clogged with competitors. I understand what he is doing and recommend he continues. If all this is really real, the window for AR will close in a few months. T
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I cannot understand why he does these things! I can. Well, at least he is consistent. About that he is. On other things he's consistently inconsistent. I am sure that Rossi reactors scaled for home use will require UL certification. You will not be able to buy home insurance without it. I don't think UL or any other consumer certification applies to any type of nuclear reactor or a device that requires a nuclear reaction. Maybe it's OK for tiny amounts of radiation as in fire alarms. I'm not sure how commercial neutron generators (which can be hazardous), civilian nuclear reactors for ships (there was IIRC at least one) and such things as medical therapy radiation machines are regulated but I'd imagine it'd fall to whatever agency does that sort of thing.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
I agree with Terry on this. I see no other way for Rossi to make money than to try to sell as many big items as he can before somebody much better than him at manufacturing comes into the game. Anything else is a distraction. I'll add that corporations go to statehouses to ask for tax breaks :-. It was MIT that should not have been there, throwing a wrench in the well-oiled machine of public officials' lobbying. Killjoys :-(( Ah, and as far as certification: no radioactive materials appear to be used. In first approximation, it would fall under the domain of the various nuclear safety agencies only if SIGNIFICANT amounts of ionizing radiation are emitted. The old cathode tube TVs never did. The shielding from the screen was sufficient.
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Marcello Vitale mvit...@ucsbalum.net wrote: I agree with Terry on this. I see no other way for Rossi to make money than to try to sell as many big items as he can before somebody much better than him at manufacturing comes into the game. Anything else is a distraction. Let me see if I understand this. It's as if Jonas Salk should have insisted on making little batches of polio vaccine in his lab and selling them to protect millionaire's families from polio rather than giving the vaccine to large companies so everyone could have it? Salk became a millionaire of course and his institute in La Jolla, California is now world renown for biomedical research and the recipient of hundreds of millions of dollars in grants. Hardly a loss for Salk. If Rossi really has table top fusion at a practical level, it is idiotic to sell the clumsy, leaky, bizarre and kludgy looking devices he has shown thus far. They guarantee that a buyer will take one apart and reverse engineer it or leak the secrets for big bucks. He should ally himself with a rich protector and go for the gold. If he has something, of course, and it's a mighty big if at this point.
