Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
In reply to Axil Axil's message of Wed, 19 Mar 2014 22:43:10 -0400: Hi, [snip] What temperature does this sublimation process occur at? WO3 sublimates at 550 ºC in air. On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:51 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Axil Axil's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:10:37 -0400: Hi, [snip] Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. Tungsten does not vaporize. It doesn't even melt. Instead, it oxidizes in the flame, and the oxide sublimates. I have seen this first hand. When a piece of copper metal (e.g. copper pipe) is placed in the flame, the copper melts and a droplet of molten copper will hang from the end. With a tungsten rod, there is no droplet. Note in the video that there no droplets of molten tungsten fall onto the plate below. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
http://www.free-energy-info.com/MorayKing.pdf Some information on HHO from Moray King. I like the idea of isolating the water clusters through hydrogen evaporation. Or maybe use a molecular sleeve to trap the water clusters. That would be a good test of the nano crystal theory when used to excite a catalytic converter into combustion by using only nano particles and not hydrogen. On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 11:10 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: In the case of HHO ... I'm not convinced that there even is an HHO distinct from H2O, although I do get a guilty pleasure out of following some of the accounts of what it is supposed to be able to do. Eric
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
In reply to Axil Axil's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:10:37 -0400: Hi, [snip] Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. Tungsten does not vaporize. It doesn't even melt. Instead, it oxidizes in the flame, and the oxide sublimates. I have seen this first hand. When a piece of copper metal (e.g. copper pipe) is placed in the flame, the copper melts and a droplet of molten copper will hang from the end. With a tungsten rod, there is no droplet. Note in the video that there no droplets of molten tungsten fall onto the plate below. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
What temperature does this sublimation process occur at? On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:51 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Axil Axil's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:10:37 -0400: Hi, [snip] Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. Tungsten does not vaporize. It doesn't even melt. Instead, it oxidizes in the flame, and the oxide sublimates. I have seen this first hand. When a piece of copper metal (e.g. copper pipe) is placed in the flame, the copper melts and a droplet of molten copper will hang from the end. With a tungsten rod, there is no droplet. Note in the video that there no droplets of molten tungsten fall onto the plate below. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is the energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant flow and one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen [which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and the electrical energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant enough to account for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well taken. Fran From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is just the burning of hydrogen in oxygen. But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C in heat vaporize tungsten at (5930 °C, 10706 °F). This does not add up unless there is LENR involved. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is the energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant flow and one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen [which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and the electrical energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant enough to account for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well taken. Fran *From:* Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM *To:* vortex-l *Subject:* EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It has never taken any commercial format. I have a few questions though: 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it comes to COP. 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that correct? I am OK with a lesson in basics:) Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. Even if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It has never taken any commercial format. I have a few questions though: 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it comes to COP. 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that correct? I am OK with a lesson in basics:) Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
I don't think the tungsten is vaporizing - at least there's no evidence that supports that contention. In the example video, the surface of the rod appears to be melted, so the flame must be at least 3500 C, higher than produced by H2+O combustion. There's enough velocity in the flame to blow the melted surface layer off the rod in small droplets, which might oxidise when they leave the reducing part of the flame. This process progressively continues to thin the rod until it breaks. So the real question raised here is how monatomic hydrogen is created in the system. It's called HHO but the simple electrolysis process as used in typical HHO generators would yield 2H2O - 2H2 + O2. So how does it instead give 2H2O - 4H1 +O2 ? It doesn't seem likely a H2+O flame by itself could disassociate unburned H2, because H2 splitting is highly endothermic. In the Langmuir process the needed energy comes from the electric arc. I suppose there could be plasma fusion somewhere in the flame. It would be nice to check one of these torches for gammas. AlanG On 3/18/2014 8:39 AM, Axil Axil wrote: In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is just the burning of hydrogen in oxygen. But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C in heat vaporize tungsten at (5930 °C, 10706 °F). This does not add up unless there is LENR involved. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com mailto:francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is the energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant flow and one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen [which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and the electrical energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant enough to account for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well taken. Fran *From:*Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com mailto:janap...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM *To:* vortex-l *Subject:* EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. Even if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It has never taken any commercial format. I have a few questions though: 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it comes to COP. 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that correct? I am OK with a lesson in basics:) Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know what you mean with incommensurable quantities. Are you just supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that, it seems without connection to anything. However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful thinking or in worst case scam. Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the loop back and to consumption. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. Even if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It has never taken any commercial format. I have a few questions though: 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it comes to COP. 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that correct? I am OK with a lesson in basics:) Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
What causes HHO explosive/implosive reaction is the same mechanism the makes the Papp engine function. In fact, Papp's first patent for his engine was a closed HHO engine, where water never exited the piston. What is commonly understood today as a HHO engine is an open engine design, where water in the form of HHO is continually fed into the engine. In the experiments conducted by Russ on the Papp engine (the Popper), the Plasma both expanded and then contracted with considerable force. This is a result of the way nano crystals explode and then reform under the influence of pulsed Extreme Ultraviolet (EUV) radiation. Papp used HHO to blow a hole into the floor of the desert where he ripped apart a .75 inch thick stainless steel pipe. R.Mills now says the nascent water powers his latest invention where a huge explosion of water catalyzed by his magic dust takes place. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. Even if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It has never taken any commercial format. I have a few questions though: 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it comes to COP. 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that correct? I am OK with a lesson in basics:) Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote: Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know what you mean with incommensurable quantities. Are you just supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that, it seems without connection to anything. However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful thinking or in worst case scam. Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the loop back and to consumption. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. Even if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It has never taken any commercial format. I have a few questions though: 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it comes to COP. 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that correct? I am OK with a lesson in basics:) Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Thanks James, I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the way you used it. I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned. What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to compare anything. Did I ? I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example. I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote: Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know what you mean with incommensurable quantities. Are you just supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that, it seems without connection to anything. However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful thinking or in worst case scam. Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the loop back and to consumption. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. Even if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It has never taken any commercial format. I have a few questions though: 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 2. Is it not
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Is it possible that some of the tungsten is burning instead of melting? A cutting torch actually burns the steel by adding excess oxygen to the region. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 11:40 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is just the burning of hydrogen in oxygen. But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C in heat vaporize tungsten at (5930 °C, 10706 °F). This does not add up unless there is LENR involved. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is the energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant flow and one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen [which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and the electrical energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant enough to account for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well taken. Fran From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
That is right, Dave. Tungsten oxide is volatile and will vaporize at much lower temperatures than pure tungsten, which makes tungsten look as if it is valorizing. In addition, the quoted max. temperature for H2-O2 combustion is for the temperature of the flame. This is not the maximum possible temperature. If the energy is released on the surface of the W, the temperature could get much higher. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 12:26 PM, David Roberson wrote: Is it possible that some of the tungsten is burning instead of melting? A cutting torch actually burns the steel by adding excess oxygen to the region. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 11:40 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is just the burning of hydrogen in oxygen. But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C in heat vaporize tungsten at (5930 °C, 10706 °F). This does not add up unless there is LENR involved. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is the energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant flow and one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen [which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and the electrical energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant enough to account for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well taken. Fran From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of your hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten. The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame. This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F) On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the evanescent wave. So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question: Do I need to spell this out any further? After giving temperature numbers as though they represented energy or power. I tend to dismiss Axil's asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than their tone -- but this takes the cake. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote: Thanks James, I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the way you used it. I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned. What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to compare anything. Did I ? I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example. I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote: Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know what you mean with incommensurable quantities. Are you just supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that, it seems without connection to anything. However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful thinking or in worst case scam. Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the loop back and to consumption. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. Even if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature. Ed Storms On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: Axil, I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. I have
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
James Ok I am not so sensitive so it is OK- but felt uncalled for as I preempted my weakness:) Hard to follow if you do not say to whom. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question: Do I need to spell this out any further? After giving temperature numbers as though they represented energy or power. I tend to dismiss Axil's asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than their tone -- but this takes the cake. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote: Thanks James, I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the way you used it. I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned. What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to compare anything. Did I ? I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example. I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote: Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know what you mean with incommensurable quantities. Are you just supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that, it seems without connection to anything. However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful thinking or in worst case scam. Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the loop back and to consumption. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Well there have been other recent examples from very authoritative sources: https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg88835.html So I felt a general comment was in order. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote: James Ok I am not so sensitive so it is OK- but felt uncalled for as I preempted my weakness:) Hard to follow if you do not say to whom. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question: Do I need to spell this out any further? After giving temperature numbers as though they represented energy or power. I tend to dismiss Axil's asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than their tone -- but this takes the cake. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote: Thanks James, I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the way you used it. I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned. What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to compare anything. Did I ? I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example. I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote: Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know what you mean with incommensurable quantities. Are you just supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that, it seems without connection to anything. However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful thinking or in worst case scam. Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the loop back and to consumption. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced
Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
Here is an ORNL report from 1952 about heat released by HHO through a catalytic converter: http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1952/3445603529607.pdf Title is: The Reaction Between Hydrogen and Oxygen by Catalysis and the Thermal Reaction - Brad On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 2:50 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Well there have been other recent examples from very authoritative sources: https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg88835.html So I felt a general comment was in order. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote: James Ok I am not so sensitive so it is OK- but felt uncalled for as I preempted my weakness:) Hard to follow if you do not say to whom. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question: Do I need to spell this out any further? After giving temperature numbers as though they represented energy or power. I tend to dismiss Axil's asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than their tone -- but this takes the cake. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote: Thanks James, I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the way you used it. I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned. What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to compare anything. Did I ? I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example. I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote: Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know what you mean with incommensurable quantities. Are you just supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that, it seems without connection to anything. However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful thinking or in worst case scam. Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the loop back and to consumption. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring or heating and air conditioning. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. In the case of HHO, the
