Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Am 09.12.2011 22:11, schrieb Horace Heffner: Photos are from Alan Fletcher's site, the page with the nifty FEA simulations: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php If air bubbles are collected at the blue side, this would produce rather large errors in thermal coupling: http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/bh_09_manifold_001.jpg I believe, there are so many possibilities for more or less important errors with this arrangement, that even a precise simulation or calculation cannot give a conclusive result. Only improvement of the experiment and repetition can clear this situation. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Dec 9, 2011, at 12:30 PM, David Roberson wrote: A question that seems to need answering is: Why is the black electrical tape wound around the manifold at the location where the thermocouple would possibly hit if pushed downward by the insulation? Is there some purpose for tape in this particular location?http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png It sure looks like an attempt to keep the TC from contacting the metal of the manifold. Dave On Dec 9, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Robert Leguillon wrote: I had assumed at first glance that the to of the thermocouple was held in contact with the manifold by that tape (that it was taking it down). But, then Rossi indicated a position closer to the nut with his finger, and this photo seems to indicate it was floating in the free air: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/LewanTcoupleClose.jpg Does anyone have a photo of the thermocouple while it was attached? The tape (or some of the tape) on the manifold may have simply been stuck there when it was removed from the nut during unwrapping. OTOH, it may have been used to tape the tip of the thermocouple to the manifold. It looks to me the wire could make it to the manifold if it were straight. BTW, I recall seeing a video in which the unwrapping occurred. I read a comment from someone somewhere that said Rossi Jerked the thermocouple wire hard just before unwrapping it, and this was in the first second or so of the video. I saw the video. I couldn't tell for sure. Maybe my memory is failing me on this. I've looked all over for the info. I thought I wrote a post on this, but can not find it. I am sorry I am not able to keep up with all the posts. I am thinking about withdrawing from reading the list for a while again. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Dec 9, 2011, at 11:04 PM, Peter Heckert wrote: Am 09.12.2011 22:11, schrieb Horace Heffner: Photos are from Alan Fletcher's site, the page with the nifty FEA simulations: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php If air bubbles are collected at the blue side, this would produce rather large errors in thermal coupling: http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/bh_09_manifold_001.jpg This is a very good point. If the cross section is correct, there is a pocket that can collect air bubbles. The heat exchanger was probably filled with air at startup, and the orientation shown in the cross section is correct I think. An air pocket should collect there at startup. I believe, there are so many possibilities for more or less important errors with this arrangement, that even a precise simulation or calculation cannot give a conclusive result. Only improvement of the experiment and repetition can clear this situation. Peter Yes, if it can ever be clear. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: The thermoelement on the tape has a bad contact to the metal and measures preferrably the air temperature. This is not a valid test. You have to cover up the thermocouples. Rossi did not leave them open to the air. Of course leaving them open will pick up the air temperature. That is obvious. Yesterday when I removed the foam pipe insulation, the temperature dropped 1.4 to 3°C, even though the TC was still covered with adhesive tape. It began fluctuating, no doubt due to air currents. Putting a layer of tape under the TC in open air might well increase this problem. You have put everything under insulation. I see no point to testing for problems that Rossi cannot possibly have. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Am 09.12.2011 18:59, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: The thermoelement on the tape has a bad contact to the metal and measures preferrably the air temperature. This is not a valid test. You have to cover up the thermocouples. Rossi did not leave them open to the air. I assume that under the surface of the insulation warm air can distribute. Probably the air has the average temp of input and output. The thermoelement would be exposed to this air even if it might be separately glued on with adhesive tape, but not tightly, or if glassfiber was between thermoelement and metal. Remember, for this measurement in Rossis setup there was a typical delta_t measured of 5 degrees. This means, 0.5 degrees is 10% error. The problem would be avoided, if a reasonable delta_t of 30° would be chosen. This is typical for domestic heat radiators and so this would also give a nice customer-oriented demo. rossi has missed this chance. Of course leaving them open will pick up the air temperature. That is obvious. Yesterday when I removed the foam pipe insulation, the temperature dropped 1.4 to 3°C, even though the TC was still covered with adhesive tape. It began fluctuating, no doubt due to air currents. Putting a layer of tape under the TC in open air might well increase this problem. You have put everything under insulation. I see no point to testing for problems that Rossi cannot possibly have. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I assume that under the surface of the insulation warm air can distribute. Then you should please put some insulation over it, leaving some warm air. No more than 1 mm of air. Not ~1 cm. I believe you are wrong about that. I tested for it, and found no such thing. Exposure to ambient air had an immediate, large effect. But making at tent with string, leaving about 1 mm all around, did not affect the measurement. When I say it did not affect it, I mean to within 0.1 deg C. It did not even affect it when I ran cold water through the pipe under the tent. Also there is not probably no trapped air in Rossi's system. Rossi wrapped the insulation tightly, as you see in the video. I doubt there is a 0.1 mm gap between the TC and the metal. Again, because it was tightly wrapped. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
I wrote: On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: The thermoelement on the tape has a bad contact to the metal and measures preferrably the air temperature. This is not a valid test. You have to cover up the thermocouples. Rossi did not leave them open to the air. Of course leaving them open will pick up the air temperature. That is obvious. Yesterday when I removed the foam pipe insulation, the temperature dropped 1.4 to 3°C, even though the TC was still covered with adhesive tape. It began fluctuating, no doubt due to air currents. Putting a layer of tape under the TC in open air might well increase this problem. You have put everything under insulation. I see no point to testing for problems that Rossi cannot possibly have. In other words, there might be a 0.1 mm gap, even though the TC are under tightly wrapped insulation. It is possible that some of the threads from insulation are between the TC and the metal, and maybe that causes a problem. I would be happy to do a test for this. I can clip some insulation, put it under adhesive tape on the metal surface, and put the TC on top of that. That should test both hypotheses at the same time. I would use a metal cup for this, filled with hot water, with the TCs on the outside. I do not have a nifty metal heater. As I said, you have to put insulation over the whole thing or the test is meaningless. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Dec 9, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I assume that under the surface of the insulation warm air can distribute. Then you should please put some insulation over it, leaving some warm air. No more than 1 mm of air. Not ~1 cm. I believe you are wrong about that. I tested for it, and found no such thing. Exposure to ambient air had an immediate, large effect. But making at tent with string, leaving about 1 mm all around, did not affect the measurement. When I say it did not affect it, I mean to within 0.1 deg C. It did not even affect it when I ran cold water through the pipe under the tent. Also there is not probably no trapped air in Rossi's system. Rossi wrapped the insulation tightly, as you see in the video. I doubt there is a 0.1 mm gap between the TC and the metal. Again, because it was tightly wrapped. - Jed The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface and the the pipe that extends between the nut and manifold. It can not be expected the insulation goes down into this gap - it is thus full of air, and exposed to an air temperature that is between the manifold surface temperature and the temperature of the nut surface. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
I wrote: But making at tent with string, leaving about 1 mm all around, did not affect the measurement. When I say it did not affect it, I mean to within 0.1 deg C. I refer to this photo, which now has a caption: http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/T2%20before%20insulating.jpg I put packing tape around the string to ensure that the foam tape would leave a large gap, or tent. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface . . . I do not think so. The insulating material is flexible and fits tightly. Also, the TC is against the flat surface of the nut, and probably it is snugly covered on all sides. HOWEVER, if you think this is a concern, we can test for it. We can make a tent as large as you like, and see if it makes a measurable difference. The string tent I made is probably bigger than anything in your description of Rossi's setup. Also my string tent had a cold water pipe running through it with lots of 16°C water flowing through, 1 cm away from the TC. That seems more extreme than what you are proposing. Heckert can also test for this with some insulation. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Dec 9, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface . . . I do not think so. The insulating material is flexible and fits tightly. Also, the TC is against the flat surface of the nut, I don't think so. The wire is against the nut, but it is not clear the thermocouple tip is. and probably it is snugly covered on all sides. HOWEVER, if you think this is a concern, we can test for it. We can make a tent as large as you like, and see if it makes a measurable difference. The string tent I made is probably bigger than anything in your description of Rossi's setup. Also my string tent had a cold water pipe running through it with lots of 16°C water flowing through, 1 cm away from the TC. That seems more extreme than what you are proposing. Heckert can also test for this with some insulation. - Jed Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Dec 9, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface . . . I do not think so. The insulating material is flexible and fits tightly. Also, the TC is against the flat surface of the nut, I don't think so. The wire is against the nut, but it is not clear the thermocouple tip is. Here is another view of the thermocouple tip after the insulation was removed. You can see it extends out beyond the nut, even though the wire is bent upwards at the time of the photo. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png Here is photo of manifold with thermocouple removed. Air space is probably about 5 mm deep, 2 cm wide? Also threads prevent firm wide area contact. This is from Alan Fletcher's site: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php and probably it is snugly covered on all sides. HOWEVER, if you think this is a concern, we can test for it. We can make a tent as large as you like, and see if it makes a measurable difference. The problem is simulating the nature of the manifold, with its very high thermal conductivity and large contact area between hot and cold sides. Taping together two hoses does not do this. The string tent I made is probably bigger than anything in your description of Rossi's setup. Also my string tent had a cold water pipe running through it with lots of 16°C water flowing through, 1 cm away from the TC. That seems more extreme than what you are proposing. Heckert can also test for this with some insulation. - Jed Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: I don't think so. The wire is against the nut, but it is not clear the thermocouple tip is. Why would he not ensure the tip is up against the flat surface? Wouldn't you do that? I sure would. But okay, let's assume it is protruding out. As you see in the video, the insulating material is flexible tape. It will bend and cover over things. So even if the TC is protruding out, the air pocket around it will be small. Furthermore, even when you make a huge air pocket with a pipe and you run water 34 deg C cooler than your target through it, that makes no measurable difference. So I suggest: 1. You stop fretting about this. OR 2. You propose some test that I or someone else can do to prove or disprove your hypothesis. If you don't like my tent, what do you propose? OR 3. Get a TC and try it yourself. It should not be necessary to get an entire heat exchanger to test this one hypothesis. The experiment should be simplified to include only the specific details being tested such as whether an air pocket can affect TC performance. By the way, if the TC is protruding off the edge of that nut, I expect that would bend the TC into an L shape. These are flexible wires not rods. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Dec 9, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface . . . I do not think so. The insulating material is flexible and fits tightly. Also, the TC is against the flat surface of the nut, I don't think so. The wire is against the nut, but it is not clear the thermocouple tip is. Here is another view of the thermocouple tip after the insulation was removed. You can see it extends out beyond the nut, even though the wire is bent upwards at the time of the photo. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png Here is photo of manifold with thermocouple removed. Air space is probably about 5 mm deep, 2 cm wide? Also threads prevent firm wide area contact. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_2_crop.jpg Photos are from Alan Fletcher's site, the page with the nifty FEA simulations: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php and probably it is snugly covered on all sides. HOWEVER, if you think this is a concern, we can test for it. We can make a tent as large as you like, and see if it makes a measurable difference. The problem is simulating the nature of the manifold, with its very high thermal conductivity and large contact area between hot and cold sides. Taping together two hoses does not do this. The string tent I made is probably bigger than anything in your description of Rossi's setup. Also my string tent had a cold water pipe running through it with lots of 16°C water flowing through, 1 cm away from the TC. That seems more extreme than what you are proposing. Heckert can also test for this with some insulation. - Jed Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.netwrote: The problem is simulating the nature of the manifold, with its very high thermal conductivity and large contact area between hot and cold sides. Taping together two hoses does not do this. Very well put. I think that's the main issue here. If the whole matter is sufficiently important and it's economically feasible to get a heat exchanger similar to Rossi's, that'd be the way to go.
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Am 09.12.2011 19:40, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Heckert can also test for this with some insulation. - Jed Sorry, its only possible when the boss is not around ;-) We are rather busy now, at end of year many customers must use up their budget, if they dont do this they get less next year... Peter
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: Sorry, its only possible when the boss is not around ;-) We are rather busy now, at end of year many customers must use up their budget, if they dont do this they get less next year... sigh That's why there are no curbs at the local military base. Oh, the roads were built with curbs; but, whenever they end the year with leftover budget for base maintenance, they spend it quickly by paving the roads or lose the budget. Now there are no curbs left as they are filled with asphalt. T
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Mary Yugo wrote: The problem is simulating the nature of the manifold, with its very high thermal conductivity and large contact area between hot and cold sides. Taping together two hoses does not do this. Very well put. I think that's the main issue here. You missed the main issue. I was testing for air convection in a pocket. I knew that the two pipes touching would not conduct a significant amount of heat. I believe I said that before, and again today. Granted, there was no significant air convection with that string tent, although I did give the TC some space. My air pocket was larger by far than Rossi's would be, if he has one (which I doubt). Really, this is a non-issue. If someone would like to make a larger tent with a clear path between the hot body and a cold body, please do so. I'm sure you will still find no measurable effect. I could do that if someone would like to recommend a specific method. Not dry ice touching the hot water pipe 1 cm away from the TC. Some reasonable simulation of Rossi's system. The other way to do this is by modeling. Use a computer instead of a real test. Everyone who has done that for the conduction problem has determined it is a non-issue. Actually . . . for the conduction test, an ice pack around a copper pipe of hot water would be easy to arrange . . . That's a stable source of cold, until the ice all melts. One of those blue refrigerator pack things. I wonder how far upstream it should be? Easier than a blowtorch. If the whole matter is sufficiently important and it's economically feasible to get a heat exchanger similar to Rossi's, that'd be the way to go. After some consideration, I do not see what the heat exchanger has to do with these hypotheses. Perhaps it has to do with some other hypothesis. One at a time. Simply the experiment to explore the question. Do not use an entire heat exchanger if all you want to know is whether conduction is a significant fraction of convection in this system. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Dec 9, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface . . . I do not think so. The insulating material is flexible and fits tightly. Also, the TC is against the flat surface of the nut, I don't think so. The wire is against the nut, but it is not clear the thermocouple tip is. Here is another view of the thermocouple tip after the insulation was removed. You can see it extends out beyond the nut, even though the wire is bent upwards at the time of the photo. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png A cropping with the thermocouple tip circled in red is attached. Here is photo of manifold with thermocouple removed. Air space is probably about 5 mm deep, 2 cm wide? Also threads prevent firm wide area contact. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_2_crop.jpg Photos are from Alan Fletcher's site, the page with the nifty FEA simulations: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ inline: ToutClose.jpg
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
A question that seems to need answering is: Why is the black electrical tape wound around the manifold at the location where the thermocouple would possibly hit if pushed downward by the insulation? Is there some purpose for tape in this particular location?http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png It sure looks like an attempt to keep the TC from contacting the metal of the manifold. Dave -Original Message- From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape. n Dec 9, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface . . . I do not think so. The insulating material is flexible and fits tightly. Also, the TC is against the flat surface of the nut, I don't think so. The wire is against the nut, but it is not clear he thermocouple tip is. Here is another view of the thermocouple tip after the insulation was emoved. You can see it extends out beyond the nut, even though the ire is bent upwards at the time of the photo. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png A cropping with the thermocouple tip circled in red is attached. Here is photo of manifold with thermocouple removed. Air space is robably about 5 mm deep, 2 cm wide? Also threads prevent firm wide rea contact. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_2_crop.jpg Photos are from Alan Fletcher's site, the page with the nifty FEA imulations: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php est regards, Horace Heffner ttp://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
I had assumed at first glance that the to of the thermocouple was held in contact with the manifold by that tape (that it was taking it down). But, then Rossi indicated a position closer to the nut with his finger, and this photo seems to indicate it was floating in the free air: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/LewanTcoupleClose.jpg Does anyone have a photo of the thermocouple while it was attached? David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: A question that seems to need answering is: Why is the black electrical tape wound around the manifold at the location where the thermocouple would possibly hit if pushed downward by the insulation? Is there some purpose for tape in this particular location?http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png It sure looks like an attempt to keep the TC from contacting the metal of the manifold. Dave -Original Message- From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape. n Dec 9, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: The air gap the thermocouple extends out into is large. It is a gap that is longitudinally between the nut and the manifold, and radially between the nut outer surface . . . I do not think so. The insulating material is flexible and fits tightly. Also, the TC is against the flat surface of the nut, I don't think so. The wire is against the nut, but it is not clear he thermocouple tip is. Here is another view of the thermocouple tip after the insulation was emoved. You can see it extends out beyond the nut, even though the ire is bent upwards at the time of the photo. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png A cropping with the thermocouple tip circled in red is attached. Here is photo of manifold with thermocouple removed. Air space is robably about 5 mm deep, 2 cm wide? Also threads prevent firm wide rea contact. http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_2_crop.jpg Photos are from Alan Fletcher's site, the page with the nifty FEA imulations: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php est regards, Horace Heffner ttp://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: A question that seems to need answering is: Why is the black electrical tape wound around the manifold at the location where the thermocouple would possibly hit if pushed downward by the insulation? Is there some purpose for tape in this particular location?http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics /111010_1C_crop.png It sure looks like an attempt to keep the TC from contacting the metal of the manifold. Ah. You mean the purpose is to keep the TC in contact with the nut only, and not to conduct too much heat from the manifold. I expect you are right. Black electrical tape is pretty good thermal insulation. So is duct tape, which is similar. Generally speaking, a good electrical insulator is also good at thermal insulation. By the way, Heckert referred to duct tape yesterday. I think he referred to what Americans would call adhesive tape or Scotch tape. Duct tape in the U.S. is heavy gray ultra sticky stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape It is used for all-purpose everything repairs. It was used in Apollo 13 to avoid catastrophe and make an air filter. I have a 20-year-old car in Japan which is held together with the stuff. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Yep, that duct tape is pretty good stuff. I always carry some with me to keep things together and it has come in handy on several occasions. It certainly is possible that the black tape keeps direct contact from occurring between the copper manifold and the TC. Do you think that Rossi was using the insulation to hold the TC to the nut? That would seem to be a little unreliable. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape. David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: A question that seems to need answering is: Why is the black electrical tape wound around the manifold at the location where the thermocouple would possibly hit if pushed downward by the insulation? Is there some purpose for tape in this particular location?http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/111010_1C_crop.png It sure looks like an attempt to keep the TC from contacting the metal of the manifold. Ah. You mean the purpose is to keep the TC in contact with the nut only, and not to conduct too much heat from the manifold. I expect you are right. Black electrical tape is pretty good thermal insulation. So is duct tape, which is similar. Generally speaking, a good electrical insulator is also good at thermal insulation. By the way, Heckert referred to duct tape yesterday. I think he referred to what Americans would call adhesive tape or Scotch tape. Duct tape in the U.S. is heavy gray ultra sticky stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape It is used for all-purpose everything repairs. It was used in Apollo 13 to avoid catastrophe and make an air filter. I have a 20-year-old car in Japan which is held together with the stuff. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote: But, then Rossi indicated a position closer to the nut with his finger, and this photo seems to indicate it was floating in the free air: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/LewanTcoupleClose.jpg Yup. It was held down by other tape and insulation, which has been removed in this photo. You couldn't see it otherwise. Does anyone have a photo of the thermocouple while it was attached? I believe I saw a video or still photos of them unwrapping it . . . You can see in the video it was all bundled up during the run. This video shows only the position after the run, not the unwrapping in progress: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece See the end of the video. Looking at that video, I see nothing wrong with the placement. That's where I would have put it. There was only rubber hose after that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It certainly is possible that the black tape keeps direct contact from occurring between the copper manifold and the TC. Do you think that Rossi was using the insulation to hold the TC to the nut? That would seem to be a little unreliable. Yeah, I am pretty sure I saw a video or still photos of the unwrapping, and there was a bunch of electrical tape holding it in position. It was all bundled up. Seriously, who wouldn't use tape? Why would anyone just use insulation and hope it stayed in place? Let's give Russi the benefit of the doubt here, and assume he has common sense. The video shows electrical tape plastered all over the machine and the heat exchanger (starting at minute 2). Clearly, they buy the stuff in bulk at Cosco. They have a lot of it sitting around. So why would he use only insulation? As I said, the guy knows what he is doing. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:59 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Yep, that duct tape is pretty good stuff. I always carry some with me to keep things together and it has come in handy on several occasions. You have no idea how handy it is: http://www.usmra.com/photos/Duct_Plane/ T
