Re: [Wikimedia-l] Qualities for the next long-term WMF executive director

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:21 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> If the research results about qualities of effective managers have been
> generally consistent for 30 years, then I wonder why so many managers in so
> many organizations today have mediocre skills in those areas.
>

​I'd hazard a guess that it's because there are more management positions -
many, many more - out there in the world then there are stellar managers.



> I also wonder, in WMF's case, what can be done to ensure that the next ED
> is robustly skilled in those areas.
>

​This is a good question, hopefully this will be documented during the
search.

-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Qualities for the next long-term WMF executive director

[Pine W]

If the research results about qualities of effective managers have been
generally consistent for 30 years, then I wonder why so many managers in so
many organizations today have mediocre skills in those areas.

I also wonder, in WMF's case, what can be done to ensure that the next ED
is robustly skilled in those areas.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Risker]

I agree with Craig on the most reasonable interpretation of the limited
commentary from the Board in recent weeks.  Indeed, it would be quite
normal, even expected, to include a mutual non-disparagement clause in any
separation agreement, which by its very nature is confidential.

Risker/Anne



On 7 March 2016 at 01:50, Craig Franklin  wrote:

> To be honest, I consider it unlikely that Patricio or anyone else is going
> to discuss HR matters at length in public, even when they concern Lila, and
> especially when they could potentially be interpreted as negative towards a
> particular identifiable individual.  For legal reasons, it might be the
> case that the BoT will let Lila have as dignified an exit as possible from
> the organisation, without putting a whole bunch of information into the
> public domain about how they regarded her performance.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> On 7 March 2016 at 16:39, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>
> > +1. I would also very much appreciate Patricio explaining whether the
> > "full confidence of the board" actually meant the full confidence:
> > IOW, that a vote was taken and everyone unanimously agreed that Lila's
> > continuation was the best thing.
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Qualities for the next long-term WMF executive director

[Risker]

Well, the traits mentioned in the BI article are so commonplace in
management literature (I can remember studying basically that same list
almost 30 years ago) that they're kind of like mom and apple pie.  There's
a bit less emphasis on command and control, and a bit more human interest
emphasis, but these supposedly effective traits have been set down on paper
for over a generation now.  There's nothing new in what Facebook finds
makes an effective manager. And more particularly, what's talked about in
that article is so generic it could apply equally to a factory, a
commercial enterprise, or a non-profit.

It strikes me that the key question the Board needs to think about is
whether they want a manager, a leader or a visionary.

Risker/Anne

On 7 March 2016 at 01:48, Pine W  wrote:

> On the topic of researching what makes someone a successful CEO (as opposed
> to a manager who may or may not be a CEO), it's interesting that the
> resources that I've found on the Internet tend to describe current trends
> in management fads (which aren't particularly helpful in our situation,
> IMO) and/or traits of people who have been promoted to CEO (which are not
> necessarily synonymous with traits that make someone *successful *as a
> CEO).
>
> My hunch is that traits of successful CEOs may vary a bit depending on the
> nature of the organization. Some skills are likely to be similar (such as
> communication, accounting, business law, and market research) while others
> may be quite different (for example, the CEO of General Motors probably
> needs to have a different reservoir of industry-specific knowledge than the
> CEO of the Humane Society.) Also, the mentalities of organizations can be
> quite different, for example the CEO of Microsoft is probably very
> interested in growing market share for a wide array of existing product
> lines, while the chief executive of a specialty pharmaceutical research
> company may be far more focused on R for a small batch of high-risk,
> high-potential products that have yet to come to market.
>
> Narrowing the focus to the more specific case of the WMF CEO, it seems to
> me that the skills listed in the BI article are a good place to start. We
> might also be interested in mission alignment, cultural fit, knowledge of
> the legal and fundraising landscapes, and familiarity with open source
> technologies that WMF uses. As others have mentioned, the CEO and the CTO
> are distinct roles; it seems to me that if we get a solid CTO then we can
> de-emphasize the the technical skills in the CEO search and focus on the
> wide array of other skills that would be valuable for the CEO.
>
> Pine
>
>
>
>
>
> mama
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Greg Grossmeier 
> wrote:
>
> > 
> > > Food for thought:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-best-managers-exhibit-these-7-behaviors-2016-1
> >
> > I think that is great food for thought for managers of teams,
> > definitely.
> >
> > I'm not sure it applies to managers of managers or executives; only
> > because those positions weren't a part of this investigation.
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > --
> > | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> > | identi.ca: @gregA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Craig Franklin]

To be honest, I consider it unlikely that Patricio or anyone else is going
to discuss HR matters at length in public, even when they concern Lila, and
especially when they could potentially be interpreted as negative towards a
particular identifiable individual.  For legal reasons, it might be the
case that the BoT will let Lila have as dignified an exit as possible from
the organisation, without putting a whole bunch of information into the
public domain about how they regarded her performance.

Cheers,
Craig

On 7 March 2016 at 16:39, Oliver Keyes  wrote:

> +1. I would also very much appreciate Patricio explaining whether the
> "full confidence of the board" actually meant the full confidence:
> IOW, that a vote was taken and everyone unanimously agreed that Lila's
> continuation was the best thing.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Qualities for the next long-term WMF executive director

[Pine W]

On the topic of researching what makes someone a successful CEO (as opposed
to a manager who may or may not be a CEO), it's interesting that the
resources that I've found on the Internet tend to describe current trends
in management fads (which aren't particularly helpful in our situation,
IMO) and/or traits of people who have been promoted to CEO (which are not
necessarily synonymous with traits that make someone *successful *as a CEO).

My hunch is that traits of successful CEOs may vary a bit depending on the
nature of the organization. Some skills are likely to be similar (such as
communication, accounting, business law, and market research) while others
may be quite different (for example, the CEO of General Motors probably
needs to have a different reservoir of industry-specific knowledge than the
CEO of the Humane Society.) Also, the mentalities of organizations can be
quite different, for example the CEO of Microsoft is probably very
interested in growing market share for a wide array of existing product
lines, while the chief executive of a specialty pharmaceutical research
company may be far more focused on R for a small batch of high-risk,
high-potential products that have yet to come to market.

Narrowing the focus to the more specific case of the WMF CEO, it seems to
me that the skills listed in the BI article are a good place to start. We
might also be interested in mission alignment, cultural fit, knowledge of
the legal and fundraising landscapes, and familiarity with open source
technologies that WMF uses. As others have mentioned, the CEO and the CTO
are distinct roles; it seems to me that if we get a solid CTO then we can
de-emphasize the the technical skills in the CEO search and focus on the
wide array of other skills that would be valuable for the CEO.

Pine





mama

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Greg Grossmeier  wrote:

> 
> > Food for thought:
> >
> >
> http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-best-managers-exhibit-these-7-behaviors-2016-1
>
> I think that is great food for thought for managers of teams,
> definitely.
>
> I'm not sure it applies to managers of managers or executives; only
> because those positions weren't a part of this investigation.
>
> Greg
>
> --
> | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> | identi.ca: @gregA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Oliver Keyes]

+1. I would also very much appreciate Patricio explaining whether the
"full confidence of the board" actually meant the full confidence:
IOW, that a vote was taken and everyone unanimously agreed that Lila's
continuation was the best thing.

I note that Patricio, despite being Chairman of the board, and a
trustee selected from within the movement, has not participated in
this list's discussion of the crisis, or the list at all, since
January. This is very disappointing.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:36 AM, SarahSV  wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:11 PM, jytdog  wrote:
>
>> How do we work out what actually happened, and how do we resolve the
>> contradictions?
>>
>
> Several people have asked Jimmy to release his 30 December 2015 email to
> James, in which he apparently explains in part why James was removed.
>
> Jimmy said on 28 February that he would know within a few days' whether it
> was okay to publish it. [1]  James has said that nothing needs to be kept
> secret for his sake. [2]
>
> It would be good to have an update regarding that email.
>
> Sarah
>
> [1]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082685.html
> [2]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082815.html
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[SarahSV]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:11 PM, jytdog  wrote:

> How do we work out what actually happened, and how do we resolve the
> contradictions?
>

​Several people have asked Jimmy to release his 30 December 2015 email to
James, in which he apparently explains in part why James was removed.

Jimmy said on 28 February that he would know within a few days' whether it
was okay to publish it. [1]  James has said that nothing needs to be kept
secret for his sake. [2]

It would be good to have an update regarding that email.

Sarah

[1]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082685.html
[2]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082815.html
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[jytdog]

Thanks for the kind replies.

The thing I really want to surface here, is the harder thing.

It seems to me that what has gone on around James Heilman's dismissal, has
some things to do with basic board processes being poor, and poorly
executed, for sure, but also.. and this is the hardest part of all - we
have the behavior of individuals, within that flawed context.  Flawed
behavior, that was possible in the context of poor processes poorly carried
out.  But flawed behavior.  I had a boss who liked to say "You can't
legislate morality."  when we were talking about strategic decisions and
policies. A lot comes down to the choices that individuals make about what
to do or say.

The really hard thing is that we have on the one hand the board stating
very clearly that it was unanimous back in November with regard to Lila,
and James writing, "it was not unanimous".  We have the board saying that
James' dismissal had nothing - nothing - to do with transparency, and James
saying that this was absolutely relevant to the conflicts that led to his
dismissal.

I don't know about others, but I find these contradictions to be almost
unbearable.  It is really obvious to me that if the past is going to be
laid to rest so that we can move forward with all these people still in the
community - so that we can move forward as a community - these
contradictions need to be resolved.  Which means that individuals have some
hard choices, as do we as a community.

How do we work out what actually happened, and how do we resolve the
contradictions?

We talk a lot about our values.  Is there room for forgiveness, so if it
turns out that people have made public misrepresentations, there is room
for them to come out and say "Yes that thing I said wasn't true, forgive
me?"  Or do we hold this kind of behavior unforgiveable and people who have
misrepresented things need to go?  Part of me hopes that there is some
truth in what everybody has said, a la Rashomon.   But with such frank
contradictions, it is hard to get there.

How do we work this out?  That is the question I would love us to tackle.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Anthony Cole  wrote:

> Recordings of board meetings will be of value to future historians.
>
> Anthony Cole
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Pete Forsyth 
> wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > Whether to record meetings is a separate question from whether to release
> > the recordings publicly.
> >
> > We have seen a lot of disagreement among Trustees recently. That's a
> > massive and *entirely avoidable* distraction for the movement. Please,
> > start recording the meetings -- if only for the benefit of Trustees and
> > their (understandably fallible) memories.
> >
> > And please revisit the question of whether or not to release some of
> those
> > video recordings publicly -- but not urgently. That part can wait until
> > after some more pressing things have been sorted out.
> >
> > I have yet to hear a good argument why recording meetings (irrespective
> of
> > whether the recordings are made public) would be a bad thing.
> >
> > -Pete
> > [[User:Peteforsyth]]
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 7:15 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 9:58 AM, jytdog  wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > This is my first posting here.  Sorry if I do anything wrong.
> > > >
> > > > I wanted to note here the following post from James Heilman:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082816.html
> > > >
> > > > And I guess this one too
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082763.html
> > > >
> > > > I fully understand what folks have said about the unworkability of
> > > > videotaping meetings, and I also understand and appreciate what
> Risker
> > > > wrote about minutes being legal documents that need to reviewed and
> > > > approved by all.
> > > >
> > > > At the same time, some enduring record seems essential.  Recordings
> > that
> > > > are not made public, but that can be used to verify when things like
> > the
> > > > above happen?  So not open, but recorded?
> > > >
> > > > What is really hard about those two posts, is the irresolvable
> > > differences
> > > > in statements that were made about those events.  Really hard.
> > >
> > > I agree.
> > >
> > > Start recording now, for private use of the board and associated staff
> > > to save them time and so at least the internal disputes are about what
> > > was meant rather than what was actually said.
> > >
> > > And push the "open" part part of this topic until further down the
> > > road, when there is a little more bandwidth to evaluate it properly.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John Vandenberg
> > >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Qualities for the next long-term WMF executive director

[Greg Grossmeier]

> Food for thought:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-best-managers-exhibit-these-7-behaviors-2016-1

I think that is great food for thought for managers of teams,
definitely.

I'm not sure it applies to managers of managers or executives; only
because those positions weren't a part of this investigation.

Greg

-- 
| Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
| identi.ca: @gregA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |

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[Wikimedia-l] Qualities for the next long-term WMF executive director

[Pine W]

Food for thought:

http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-best-managers-exhibit-these-7-behaviors-2016-1

Looking forward to further discussions in the weeks and months ahead,

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedians of Colorado User Group

[Alex Wang]

Congrats! Excited to learn more about your activities.

Cheers,

Alex

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Sydney Poore  wrote:

> Congratulations!! Look forward to hearing more about your projects.
>
> Warm regards,
> Sydney
> On Mar 6, 2016 4:57 PM, "Carlos M. Colina"  wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > On behalf of the Afffiliations Committee, I am glad to announce the
> > recognition of a new Wikimedia User Group in the United States:
> Wikimedians
> > of Colorado User Group [1]
> >
> > Among their objectives are organizing meetups of wikimedians in Colorado,
> > plus organizing events to promote our projects in the state, especially
> in
> > educational institutions and libraries.
> >
> > Let's give our colleagues a warm welcome! :-)
> >
> > 1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Colorado_User_Group
> > --
> > "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> > junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> > Carlos M. Colina
> > Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> > 
> > Member, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> > Phone: +972-52-4869915
> > Twitter: @maor_x
> > ___
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>



-- 
Alexandra Wang
Program Officer
Project & Event Grants
Wikimedia Foundation 
+1 415-839-6885
Skype: alexvwang
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedians of Colorado User Group

[Sydney Poore]

Congratulations!! Look forward to hearing more about your projects.

Warm regards,
Sydney
On Mar 6, 2016 4:57 PM, "Carlos M. Colina"  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> On behalf of the Afffiliations Committee, I am glad to announce the
> recognition of a new Wikimedia User Group in the United States: Wikimedians
> of Colorado User Group [1]
>
> Among their objectives are organizing meetups of wikimedians in Colorado,
> plus organizing events to promote our projects in the state, especially in
> educational institutions and libraries.
>
> Let's give our colleagues a warm welcome! :-)
>
> 1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Colorado_User_Group
> --
> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> Carlos M. Colina
> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve
> 
> Member, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> Twitter: @maor_x
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedians of Colorado User Group

[Richard Symonds]

Fantastic! Great to see communities spreading over the mid-US. Can't wait
to see a MO group!

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

On 6 March 2016 at 21:57, Carlos M. Colina  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> On behalf of the Afffiliations Committee, I am glad to announce the
> recognition of a new Wikimedia User Group in the United States: Wikimedians
> of Colorado User Group [1]
>
> Among their objectives are organizing meetups of wikimedians in Colorado,
> plus organizing events to promote our projects in the state, especially in
> educational institutions and libraries.
>
> Let's give our colleagues a warm welcome! :-)
>
> 1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Colorado_User_Group
> --
> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> Carlos M. Colina
> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve
> 
> Member, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> Twitter: @maor_x
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedians of Colorado User Group

[Carlos M. Colina]

Dear all,

On behalf of the Afffiliations Committee, I am glad to announce the 
recognition of a new Wikimedia User Group in the United States: 
Wikimedians of Colorado User Group [1]


Among their objectives are organizing meetups of wikimedians in 
Colorado, plus organizing events to promote our projects in the state, 
especially in educational institutions and libraries.


Let's give our colleagues a warm welcome! :-)

1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Colorado_User_Group
--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua 
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."

Carlos M. Colina
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | 
www.wikimedia.org.ve 

Member, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Katy Love to direct WMF Resources team

[Liam Wyatt]

On 26 February 2016 at 16:54, Maggie Dennis  wrote:

> That said, the role Katy had previously filled will be an open new hire,
> with opportunities for all to apply. It'll just take a little bit of time
> to put the hiring packet together.
>

Following up on Maggie's comment, applications for the position of "Program
Office, Annual Plan Grants" has now been published:
https://boards.greenhouse.io/wikimedia/jobs/178375?t=rf31sp#.VtyZbJMrKMQ

[note, that this is also offered as 'San Francisco or Remote' meaning that
the successful applicant doesn't necessarily have to work from the WMF
office]

-Liam

wittylama.com
Peace, love & metadata
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Luis Sanabria]

Hello!

The pages were marked for translation but no notification was sent out
asking for help with them. A mass message to the translators via Meta and
an email to the translators mailing list might help to get extra help with
the translations.

Regards,
Luis
El 06/03/2016 03:56, "John Mark Vandenberg"  escribió:

> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
> wrote:
> > On 2016-03-06 09:26, Gnangarra wrote:
> >>
> >> You would think though that someone who wanted to represent all of the
> >> affiliates would endeavor to have their statement translated into as
> many
> >> languages as possible to ensure their message got heard by the most
> amount
> >> of people, even if they did it themselves using one of the many
> >> translation
> >> programs available.
> >>
> >> The affiliates if they are transparent will be asking for input from
> their
> >> members as to who they should be supporting, I'd consider it as
> important
> >> but also a courtesy to all communities
> >>
> >
> > Do we have a list of languages into which the statements REALLY need to
> be
> > translated? I would say, with all due respect, that translating it to
> > Swedish and Dutch is rather a waste of time, whereas translating for
> example
> > to Spanish and Italian might indeed help.
>
> We could use the same list of languages as the process for the
> community elected/selected seats?
>
> This is also being discussed at
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016#Messy_list
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Nikola Kalchev]

The voters do not have to know English. The board members of a national
organisation do things for which they might or might not need knowledge of
foreign languages. As antanana pointed out, five of seven board members of
Wikimedia Ukraine know English. The situation is similar in other chapters.
Obviously those who know English take care of international projects, but
the others must have the possibility to read about all the candidates,
because they are also representatives of their community. I am quite sure
that each affiliate will be able to find a person to translate the resumes
from English into their own language, but I am also quite sure that not
everybody would like to do it in the volunteer time.

Лорд Бъмбъри / Nikola Kalchev

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com

<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:56 AM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
> wrote:
> > On 2016-03-06 09:26, Gnangarra wrote:
> >>
> >> You would think though that someone who wanted to represent all of the
> >> affiliates would endeavor to have their statement translated into as
> many
> >> languages as possible to ensure their message got heard by the most
> amount
> >> of people, even if they did it themselves using one of the many
> >> translation
> >> programs available.
> >>
> >> The affiliates if they are transparent will be asking for input from
> their
> >> members as to who they should be supporting, I'd consider it as
> important
> >> but also a courtesy to all communities
> >>
> >
> > Do we have a list of languages into which the statements REALLY need to
> be
> > translated? I would say, with all due respect, that translating it to
> > Swedish and Dutch is rather a waste of time, whereas translating for
> example
> > to Spanish and Italian might indeed help.
>
> We could use the same list of languages as the process for the
> community elected/selected seats?
>
> This is also being discussed at
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016#Messy_list
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Gnangarra]

Agree with John here

we are talking about two distinct needs one is the candidates being able to
communicate within the boards hence the need for english,

the second which is equally important is the need for Affiliates to be able
to engage their community in the decision process and its here where
translations are necessary

On 6 March 2016 at 17:44, John Mark Vandenberg  wrote:

> The affiliates should be engaging their members and their broader
> ccommunit/stakeholders in this process, and to do that the members should
> have translated material to evaluate.
>
> --
> John
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>



-- 
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[John Mark Vandenberg]

The affiliates should be engaging their members and their broader
ccommunit/stakeholders in this process, and to do that the members should
have translated material to evaluate.

--
John
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Is it a written rule that one needs to know English to participate in
Wikimedia's governance?

If it isn't, then the word "need" must not be used about it. If it is, it
must be changed (and that would be a topic for a different thread).

English is an important practicality, but demanding it goes again the
Internationalism guiding principle. Most people in the world don't know
English.

Nat points out an important problem correctly. Rejecting it outright is
wrong.

Whether her proposed solution is right? - I'm not sure, because the
resources are limited, and we do try to stick to volunteers whenever
possible. Also, from experience, paid translation of Wikimedia materials
tends to be bad - professional translators who aren't Wikimedians are
remarkably bad at understanding our jargon (and I don't blame them!)

A reasonable compromise, which doesn't require a lot of discussion, for the
current case is to find a list of eligible voters who don't know English
and to proritize their languages somehow. Also, I'd imagine that a
potential board member should be able to find somebody to translate at
least her or his page ;)

The Foundation could think of a better way to accommodate this better in
the future; at the very least, prepare the lists of required languages
earlier.
בתאריך 6 במרץ 2016 09:45,‏ "Gerard Meijssen" 
כתב:

> Hoi,
> I am the last one to say that multi-linguality is not important. However,
> given that the affiliates board is selected by an organisation that NEEDS
> to communicate in English, I disagree.
>
> It is vital for people of the affiliates to have a reasonable understanding
> of English and when they do not, this is not the place to start remedying
> it.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 6 March 2016 at 08:36, attolippip  wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > As you are (probably) aware, the 2016 affiliate-selected Board seats
> > process has started already. And I do think that the process is broken
> > somewhere [1]. The democracy principles even in my country, though it is
> > far from being a role model for transparency and governance, state that
> > people are equal and they have rights and responsibilities. But the
> process
> > at the moment is not fair and equal footing is not provided for. It is
> > great to have dedicated friends across the Movement that can translate
> your
> > statement into German or Chinese, but as long as not all statements are
> > translated into the languages used in all affiliates eligible to vote, I
> > deem the process broken.
> >
> > Thus I formally request that WMF spend enough resources to have all
> > nominations pages translated into all languages requested by the
> affiliates
> > eligible to vote [2] [3] and all languages used already by the nominees.
> I
> > am sure that the three facilitators cannot provide it. And there are
> limits
> > to what volunteers can do [4] or how fast. If WMF refuses, I am going to
> > use my own money [5], it costs 150 UAH (around 6 USD) to have a page
> > translated into Swedish, for example :) I can manage 7 pages translated
> > into as many languages as my personal budget will allow, but I shall do
> it
> > fairly at least, so we won’t have Susanna’s statement only in English and
> > Spanish, while Osmar’s is also in German, Catalan and French. WMF spends
> > considerable resources (mostly in staff time) on supporting the three
> > "community-elected" seats, but these two seats are not lesser board seats
> > than the three "community" ones.
> >
> > The nominees write their statement in English. Nothing wrong with that,
> of
> > course. But for a tiny little (and big) thing: not everybody understands
> it
> > well enough to make an informed choice. But even among seven board
> members
> > of Wikimedia Ukraine, two DO NOT SPEAK English, so they can read the
> > statements only if they [the statements] are translated into Ukrainian.
> > They have no choice, actually. In discussing whether to endorse my
> > candidacy, they either have to believe the rest of the Board members
> that I
> > am the most wonderful candidate and the others are just not as wonderful
> > and that’s it, or they are to ignore the Board meeting where this
> decision
> > is to be made. They can spend time editing Wikipedia or reading instead.
> >
> > And beyond the language issue, there is the informing and participation
> > issue: I am not sure how this process is organised in other affiliates,
> and
> > how you make your decisions to vote for this or that possibility (in
> terms
> > of this, I believe that there are seven possibilities presented at the
> > moment, by us, as nominees. So you can accept or decline what we seven
> > offer). You (actually) do not know us and if we are going to be great or
> > poor as Board members of WMF, and if we are the right-for-the-moment
> > choice, but you are going to choose. Are you really going to choose just
> > based on your personal contacts? Remember, in most 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2016-03-06 09:26, Gnangarra wrote:

You would think though that someone who wanted to represent all of the
affiliates would endeavor to have their statement translated into as 
many
languages as possible to ensure their message got heard by the most 
amount
of people, even if they did it themselves using one of the many 
translation

programs available.

The affiliates if they are transparent will be asking for input from 
their
members as to who they should be supporting, I'd consider it as 
important

but also a courtesy to all communities



Do we have a list of languages into which the statements REALLY need to 
be translated? I would say, with all due respect, that translating it to 
Swedish and Dutch is rather a waste of time, whereas translating for 
example to Spanish and Italian might indeed help.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Gnangarra]

You would think though that someone who wanted to represent all of the
affiliates would endeavor to have their statement translated into as many
languages as possible to ensure their message got heard by the most amount
of people, even if they did it themselves using one of the many translation
programs available.

The affiliates if they are transparent will be asking for input from their
members as to who they should be supporting, I'd consider it as important
but also a courtesy to all communities

On 6 March 2016 at 15:44, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am the last one to say that multi-linguality is not important. However,
> given that the affiliates board is selected by an organisation that NEEDS
> to communicate in English, I disagree.
>
> It is vital for people of the affiliates to have a reasonable understanding
> of English and when they do not, this is not the place to start remedying
> it.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 6 March 2016 at 08:36, attolippip  wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > As you are (probably) aware, the 2016 affiliate-selected Board seats
> > process has started already. And I do think that the process is broken
> > somewhere [1]. The democracy principles even in my country, though it is
> > far from being a role model for transparency and governance, state that
> > people are equal and they have rights and responsibilities. But the
> process
> > at the moment is not fair and equal footing is not provided for. It is
> > great to have dedicated friends across the Movement that can translate
> your
> > statement into German or Chinese, but as long as not all statements are
> > translated into the languages used in all affiliates eligible to vote, I
> > deem the process broken.
> >
> > Thus I formally request that WMF spend enough resources to have all
> > nominations pages translated into all languages requested by the
> affiliates
> > eligible to vote [2] [3] and all languages used already by the nominees.
> I
> > am sure that the three facilitators cannot provide it. And there are
> limits
> > to what volunteers can do [4] or how fast. If WMF refuses, I am going to
> > use my own money [5], it costs 150 UAH (around 6 USD) to have a page
> > translated into Swedish, for example :) I can manage 7 pages translated
> > into as many languages as my personal budget will allow, but I shall do
> it
> > fairly at least, so we won’t have Susanna’s statement only in English and
> > Spanish, while Osmar’s is also in German, Catalan and French. WMF spends
> > considerable resources (mostly in staff time) on supporting the three
> > "community-elected" seats, but these two seats are not lesser board seats
> > than the three "community" ones.
> >
> > The nominees write their statement in English. Nothing wrong with that,
> of
> > course. But for a tiny little (and big) thing: not everybody understands
> it
> > well enough to make an informed choice. But even among seven board
> members
> > of Wikimedia Ukraine, two DO NOT SPEAK English, so they can read the
> > statements only if they [the statements] are translated into Ukrainian.
> > They have no choice, actually. In discussing whether to endorse my
> > candidacy, they either have to believe the rest of the Board members
> that I
> > am the most wonderful candidate and the others are just not as wonderful
> > and that’s it, or they are to ignore the Board meeting where this
> decision
> > is to be made. They can spend time editing Wikipedia or reading instead.
> >
> > And beyond the language issue, there is the informing and participation
> > issue: I am not sure how this process is organised in other affiliates,
> and
> > how you make your decisions to vote for this or that possibility (in
> terms
> > of this, I believe that there are seven possibilities presented at the
> > moment, by us, as nominees. So you can accept or decline what we seven
> > offer). You (actually) do not know us and if we are going to be great or
> > poor as Board members of WMF, and if we are the right-for-the-moment
> > choice, but you are going to choose. Are you really going to choose just
> > based on your personal contacts? Remember, in most cases administrators
> are
> > chosen more objectively, as it is almost impossible to get to know them
> > first personally. They are ‘judged’ by their deeds before, during and
> > after… Were you going to ask your communities what they think about the
> > candidates? And the members of your affiliate? If not, please consider
> this
> > option. We do have a sad example of an appointed Board member being not
> > accepted by us, as the Community.
> >
> > I am sorry for the long letter. I do believe I have a right to request
> (and
> > suggest) this. I was a part of a team that made sure that the Ukrainian
> > community REALLY knows about the elections so the eligible users on UKWP
> > have voted [6] [7] And we really worked to make that happen. As you can
> > see, Board 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
You need at least to be able to understand it in the written format. To be
blunt in the final analysis it is officials who elect these seats.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 6 March 2016 at 09:20, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
> You don’t have to be able to communicate in English to vote for the
> representative who needs to communicate in English
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: Sunday, 06 March 2016 9:45 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS
>
> Hoi,
> I am the last one to say that multi-linguality is not important. However,
> given that the affiliates board is selected by an organisation that NEEDS
> to communicate in English, I disagree.
>
> It is vital for people of the affiliates to have a reasonable
> understanding of English and when they do not, this is not the place to
> start remedying it.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 6 March 2016 at 08:36, attolippip  wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > As you are (probably) aware, the 2016 affiliate-selected Board seats
> > process has started already. And I do think that the process is broken
> > somewhere [1]. The democracy principles even in my country, though it
> > is far from being a role model for transparency and governance, state
> > that people are equal and they have rights and responsibilities. But
> > the process at the moment is not fair and equal footing is not
> > provided for. It is great to have dedicated friends across the
> > Movement that can translate your statement into German or Chinese, but
> > as long as not all statements are translated into the languages used
> > in all affiliates eligible to vote, I deem the process broken.
> >
> > Thus I formally request that WMF spend enough resources to have all
> > nominations pages translated into all languages requested by the
> > affiliates eligible to vote [2] [3] and all languages used already by
> > the nominees. I am sure that the three facilitators cannot provide it.
> > And there are limits to what volunteers can do [4] or how fast. If WMF
> > refuses, I am going to use my own money [5], it costs 150 UAH (around
> > 6 USD) to have a page translated into Swedish, for example :) I can
> > manage 7 pages translated into as many languages as my personal budget
> > will allow, but I shall do it fairly at least, so we won’t have
> > Susanna’s statement only in English and Spanish, while Osmar’s is also
> > in German, Catalan and French. WMF spends considerable resources
> > (mostly in staff time) on supporting the three "community-elected"
> > seats, but these two seats are not lesser board seats than the three
> "community" ones.
> >
> > The nominees write their statement in English. Nothing wrong with
> > that, of course. But for a tiny little (and big) thing: not everybody
> > understands it well enough to make an informed choice. But even among
> > seven board members of Wikimedia Ukraine, two DO NOT SPEAK English, so
> > they can read the statements only if they [the statements] are
> translated into Ukrainian.
> > They have no choice, actually. In discussing whether to endorse my
> > candidacy, they either have to believe the rest of the Board members
> > that I am the most wonderful candidate and the others are just not as
> > wonderful and that’s it, or they are to ignore the Board meeting where
> > this decision is to be made. They can spend time editing Wikipedia or
> reading instead.
> >
> > And beyond the language issue, there is the informing and
> > participation
> > issue: I am not sure how this process is organised in other
> > affiliates, and how you make your decisions to vote for this or that
> > possibility (in terms of this, I believe that there are seven
> > possibilities presented at the moment, by us, as nominees. So you can
> > accept or decline what we seven offer). You (actually) do not know us
> > and if we are going to be great or poor as Board members of WMF, and
> > if we are the right-for-the-moment choice, but you are going to
> > choose. Are you really going to choose just based on your personal
> > contacts? Remember, in most cases administrators are chosen more
> > objectively, as it is almost impossible to get to know them first
> > personally. They are ‘judged’ by their deeds before, during and after…
> > Were you going to ask your communities what they think about the
> > candidates? And the members of your affiliate? If not, please consider
> > this option. We do have a sad example of an appointed Board member being
> not accepted by us, as the Community.
> >
> > I am sorry for the long letter. I do believe I have a right to request
> > (and
> > suggest) this. I was a part of a team that made sure that the
> > Ukrainian community REALLY knows about the elections so the eligible
> > users on UKWP have voted [6] [7] 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

[Peter Southwood]

Hi Gerard,
You don’t have to be able to communicate in English to vote for the 
representative who needs to communicate in English
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Gerard Meijssen
Sent: Sunday, 06 March 2016 9:45 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Access and Participation in the ASBS

Hoi,
I am the last one to say that multi-linguality is not important. However, given 
that the affiliates board is selected by an organisation that NEEDS to 
communicate in English, I disagree.

It is vital for people of the affiliates to have a reasonable understanding of 
English and when they do not, this is not the place to start remedying it.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 6 March 2016 at 08:36, attolippip  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> As you are (probably) aware, the 2016 affiliate-selected Board seats 
> process has started already. And I do think that the process is broken 
> somewhere [1]. The democracy principles even in my country, though it 
> is far from being a role model for transparency and governance, state 
> that people are equal and they have rights and responsibilities. But 
> the process at the moment is not fair and equal footing is not 
> provided for. It is great to have dedicated friends across the 
> Movement that can translate your statement into German or Chinese, but 
> as long as not all statements are translated into the languages used 
> in all affiliates eligible to vote, I deem the process broken.
>
> Thus I formally request that WMF spend enough resources to have all 
> nominations pages translated into all languages requested by the 
> affiliates eligible to vote [2] [3] and all languages used already by 
> the nominees. I am sure that the three facilitators cannot provide it. 
> And there are limits to what volunteers can do [4] or how fast. If WMF 
> refuses, I am going to use my own money [5], it costs 150 UAH (around 
> 6 USD) to have a page translated into Swedish, for example :) I can 
> manage 7 pages translated into as many languages as my personal budget 
> will allow, but I shall do it fairly at least, so we won’t have 
> Susanna’s statement only in English and Spanish, while Osmar’s is also 
> in German, Catalan and French. WMF spends considerable resources 
> (mostly in staff time) on supporting the three "community-elected" 
> seats, but these two seats are not lesser board seats than the three 
> "community" ones.
>
> The nominees write their statement in English. Nothing wrong with 
> that, of course. But for a tiny little (and big) thing: not everybody 
> understands it well enough to make an informed choice. But even among 
> seven board members of Wikimedia Ukraine, two DO NOT SPEAK English, so 
> they can read the statements only if they [the statements] are translated 
> into Ukrainian.
> They have no choice, actually. In discussing whether to endorse my 
> candidacy, they either have to believe the rest of the Board members 
> that I am the most wonderful candidate and the others are just not as 
> wonderful and that’s it, or they are to ignore the Board meeting where 
> this decision is to be made. They can spend time editing Wikipedia or reading 
> instead.
>
> And beyond the language issue, there is the informing and 
> participation
> issue: I am not sure how this process is organised in other 
> affiliates, and how you make your decisions to vote for this or that 
> possibility (in terms of this, I believe that there are seven 
> possibilities presented at the moment, by us, as nominees. So you can 
> accept or decline what we seven offer). You (actually) do not know us 
> and if we are going to be great or poor as Board members of WMF, and 
> if we are the right-for-the-moment choice, but you are going to 
> choose. Are you really going to choose just based on your personal 
> contacts? Remember, in most cases administrators are chosen more 
> objectively, as it is almost impossible to get to know them first 
> personally. They are ‘judged’ by their deeds before, during and after… 
> Were you going to ask your communities what they think about the 
> candidates? And the members of your affiliate? If not, please consider 
> this option. We do have a sad example of an appointed Board member being not 
> accepted by us, as the Community.
>
> I am sorry for the long letter. I do believe I have a right to request 
> (and
> suggest) this. I was a part of a team that made sure that the 
> Ukrainian community REALLY knows about the elections so the eligible 
> users on UKWP have voted [6] [7] And we really worked to make that 
> happen. As you can see, Board elections may be of great importance to 
> the whole community. So (at least) informing your own members is important, I 
> believe.
>
> Best regards,
>
> antanana / Nataliia Tymkiv
>
> Wikimedia Ukraine
>
> [1] There is a question about the ‘turnout in this selection process’
>
>