Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Peter Southwood]

This is the point I was working on. I also have no confident answer to this 
problem, but have a gut feel it is somewhere in between the extremes. There is 
also the point that most people have some choice in where they live, though I 
do not have any useful suggestion of how that should be factored into the 
calculation. San Francisco does seem to be a rather expensively arbitrary 
choice of address, which may be influencing the way the foundation operates. 
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Dan Garry (Deskana)
Sent: 12 September 2020 18:38
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job 
ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 12:39, Nathan  wrote:

> Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get
> roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?
>

I don't know. Maybe.

Within the US, there are markets where decent, experienced software
engineers earn half of what a software engineer in San Francisco would
earn, and they would also probably have a comparable quality of life.
Outside the US, there are markets out there where the going rate
for decent, experienced software engineers is 15 times less than the going
rate for a software engineer in San Francisco. Due to the relative decrease
in purchasing power, the salary that's 15 times lower gives these people a
good quality of life comparable to (or possibly even better than) life in
San Francisco. Is it exploiting them to pay them 15 times less given that
their quality of life is the same, or even higher, than people in San
Francisco? Would it be fair to people in San Francisco, or other locations,
to do this? Should the Wikimedia Foundation pay people in this market 15
times more than they would earn at another company? As Gergő said, would
that be a responsible use of donor funds?

I don't have the answer to these questions. They are very hard questions
where there is no obviously correct answer.

Dan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Dan Garry (Deskana)]

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 22:23, Michael Peel  wrote:

> This seems to be a restriction against employers asking for someone’s
> salary history, not against including the expected salary range in a job
> advert.


Yes. Apologies, the "undoubtedly not doing this" written in my earlier
email was a bit unclear. Thanks for the clarity.

Dan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Dan Garry (Deskana)]

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 12:39, Nathan  wrote:

> Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get
> roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?
>

I don't know. Maybe.

Within the US, there are markets where decent, experienced software
engineers earn half of what a software engineer in San Francisco would
earn, and they would also probably have a comparable quality of life.
Outside the US, there are markets out there where the going rate
for decent, experienced software engineers is 15 times less than the going
rate for a software engineer in San Francisco. Due to the relative decrease
in purchasing power, the salary that's 15 times lower gives these people a
good quality of life comparable to (or possibly even better than) life in
San Francisco. Is it exploiting them to pay them 15 times less given that
their quality of life is the same, or even higher, than people in San
Francisco? Would it be fair to people in San Francisco, or other locations,
to do this? Should the Wikimedia Foundation pay people in this market 15
times more than they would earn at another company? As Gergő said, would
that be a responsible use of donor funds?

I don't have the answer to these questions. They are very hard questions
where there is no obviously correct answer.

Dan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Michael Peel]

This seems to be a restriction against employers asking for someone’s salary 
history, not against including the expected salary range in a job advert. 
Having occasionally looked at WMF job adverts, it’s always seemed odd to me 
that the salary ranges haven’t been mentioned at all (my occasional questions 
about this went unanswered). Personally, I would never apply for a position 
that doesn’t have an advertised salary range, and I can only imagine how this 
would affect those that aren’t white men. It’s probably particularly important 
in the case of San Francisco to figure out if it would even be a practical 
living wage.

Thanks,
Mike

> On 11 Sep 2020, at 12:00, Dan Garry (Deskana)  wrote:
> 
> Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco
> as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
> organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my
> knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can
> confidently state that it won't be done now.
> 
> There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the Foundation.
> One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
> applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
> wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case
> the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
> meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging
> diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up more
> junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range
> can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the right
> balance is.
> 
> Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see.
> 
> Dan
> 
> [1]:
> https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx
> 
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating 
> wrote:
> 
>> Good morning everyone!
>> 
>> There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least
>> salary ranges, on job ads.
>> 
>> An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not disclosing
>> expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary, is
>> harmful to equity in the workplace.
>> 
>> Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
>> because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their
>> salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
>> 
>> It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who
>> have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again, more
>> commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds) also
>> have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
>> norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
>> barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to apply
>> for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your current
>> employment?)
>> 
>> I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
>> mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed
>> to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary. However,
>> I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the
>> expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
>> commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
>> 
>> Thanks for reading,
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> (1): https://showthesalary.com/
>> (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Gergő Tisza]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:44 AM Chris Keating 
wrote:

> There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least
> salary ranges, on job ads.
> (...)
> I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed
> to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary. However,
> I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the
> expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
> commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
>

FWIW, the WMF does at least disclose its salary ranges internally to staff,
which I think does a lot to help with more equitable compensation. I hope
they will disclose publicly some day; until then, if you work at the WMF,
you can help by entering your salary into transparency projects like
Glassdoor [1].

Also, executive compensation is public due to US legal requirements for
charitable organizations, and is tracked on meta [2]. Probably not that
helpful to most candidates, but might be used to calibrate overall pay
levels compared to other organizations.

[1]
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Wikimedia-Foundation-Salaries-E38331.htm
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Gergő Tisza]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:25 AM Gnangarra  wrote:

> I'd hope that the WMF when hiring people in what was considered third world
> or in areas of socially deprived wages that it would pay at least to US
> standards as a matter of principle that employees doing similar jobs should
> basically be treated equally regardless of location.  That where the pay
> and conditions exceed the US the WMF should be ensuring that people there
> are being paid comparable salaries for the similar positions in that
> location, US wages and conditions arent the best for many of their
> positions but that should be no excuse for hiring people at lower
> conditions.
>
> Socially the biggest issue is the exploitation of cheap labour because
> companies can, the WMF should be doing better than that if truly believes
> in equality in the movement
>

One could make the argument that the WMF contributes magnitudes more to
global equity by its work on the Wikimedia mission than by paying staff
members, so having half as many staff members for twice the wage in cheaper
regions is an extremely poor trade-off for advancing equity.
(Of course, by the same line of reasoning, San Francisco would be a highly
questionable choice for headquarters.)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Gnangarra]

I'd hope that the WMF when hiring people in what was considered third world
or in areas of socially deprived wages that it would pay at least to US
standards as a matter of principle that employees doing similar jobs should
basically be treated equally regardless of location.  That where the pay
and conditions exceed the US the WMF should be ensuring that people there
are being paid comparable salaries for the similar positions in that
location, US wages and conditions arent the best for many of their
positions but that should be no excuse for hiring people at lower
conditions.

Socially the biggest issue is the exploitation of cheap labour because
companies can, the WMF should be doing better than that if truly believes
in equality in the movement


On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 20:11, Nathan  wrote:

> I'm sure it will vary considerably. Does that matter? When measuring
> internal equity, do we measure based on how expensive of a  lifestyle each
> employee leads?
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:46 AM Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Should they? Their cost of living expenses may vary considerably.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Nathan
> > Sent: 11 September 2020 13:39
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries
> on
> > job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get
> > roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San
> Francisco
> > > as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
> > > organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my
> > > knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can
> > > confidently state that it won't be done now.
> > >
> > > There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the
> > Foundation.
> > > One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
> > > applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
> > > wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which
> case
> > > the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
> > > meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging
> > > diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up
> > more
> > > junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary
> range
> > > can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the
> > right
> > > balance is.
> > >
> > > Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to
> > > see.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > [1]:
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-
> > updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx
> > <
> https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx
> >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating <
> chriskeatingw...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Good morning everyone!
> > > >
> > > > There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at
> > > least
> > > > salary ranges, on job ads.
> > > >
> > > > An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not
> > > disclosing
> > > > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current
> > salary,
> > > is
> > > > harmful to equity in the workplace.
> > > >
> > > > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
> > > > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating
> their
> > > > salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
> > > >
> > > > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates
> > who
> > > > have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into
> (again,
> > > more
> > > > commonly white men with privileged social and educational
> backgrounds)
> > > also
> > > > have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
> > > > norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
> > > > barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to
> > apply
> > > > for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your
> > > current
> > > > employment?)
> > > >
> > > > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> > > > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is
> > disclosed
> > > > to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.
> > > However,
> > > > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose
> > the
> > > > expected 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Peter Southwood]

On one side it would be nice to pay equal rate for equal work, on the other
would be equal personal benefit for equal work. Then there is the economics
of getting value for money, and the politics of diversity. It is a tricky
issue.
Cheers,
P

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
Of Nathan
Sent: 11 September 2020 14:10
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on
job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

I'm sure it will vary considerably. Does that matter? When measuring
internal equity, do we measure based on how expensive of a  lifestyle each
employee leads?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:46 AM Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Should they? Their cost of living expenses may vary considerably.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Nathan
> Sent: 11 September 2020 13:39
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries
on
> job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity
>
> Dan,
>
> Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get
> roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) 
> wrote:
>
> > Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San
Francisco
> > as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
> > organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my
> > knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can
> > confidently state that it won't be done now.
> >
> > There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the
> Foundation.
> > One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
> > applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
> > wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which
case
> > the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
> > meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging
> > diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up
> more
> > junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary
range
> > can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the
> right
> > balance is.
> >
> > Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to
> > see.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > [1]:
> >
> >
>
>
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-
> updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx
>

> >
> > On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Good morning everyone!
> > >
> > > There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at
> > least
> > > salary ranges, on job ads.
> > >
> > > An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not
> > disclosing
> > > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current
> salary,
> > is
> > > harmful to equity in the workplace.
> > >
> > > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
> > > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating
their
> > > salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
> > >
> > > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates
> who
> > > have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again,
> > more
> > > commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)
> > also
> > > have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
> > > norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
> > > barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to
> apply
> > > for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your
> > current
> > > employment?)
> > >
> > > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> > > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is
> disclosed
> > > to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.
> > However,
> > > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose
> the
> > > expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of
their
> > > commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
> > >
> > > Thanks for reading,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > (1): https://showthesalary.com/
> > > (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Nathan]

I'm sure it will vary considerably. Does that matter? When measuring
internal equity, do we measure based on how expensive of a  lifestyle each
employee leads?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:46 AM Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Should they? Their cost of living expenses may vary considerably.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Nathan
> Sent: 11 September 2020 13:39
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on
> job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity
>
> Dan,
>
> Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get
> roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) 
> wrote:
>
> > Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco
> > as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
> > organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my
> > knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can
> > confidently state that it won't be done now.
> >
> > There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the
> Foundation.
> > One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
> > applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
> > wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case
> > the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
> > meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging
> > diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up
> more
> > junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range
> > can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the
> right
> > balance is.
> >
> > Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to
> > see.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > [1]:
> >
> >
>
> https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-
> updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx
> 
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Good morning everyone!
> > >
> > > There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at
> > least
> > > salary ranges, on job ads.
> > >
> > > An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not
> > disclosing
> > > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current
> salary,
> > is
> > > harmful to equity in the workplace.
> > >
> > > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
> > > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their
> > > salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
> > >
> > > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates
> who
> > > have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again,
> > more
> > > commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)
> > also
> > > have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
> > > norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
> > > barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to
> apply
> > > for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your
> > current
> > > employment?)
> > >
> > > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> > > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is
> disclosed
> > > to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.
> > However,
> > > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose
> the
> > > expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
> > > commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
> > >
> > > Thanks for reading,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > (1): https://showthesalary.com/
> > > (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Chris Keating]

Glad to see this is prompting some discussion!

Dan -

Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco
> as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
> organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this.
>

Very glad to hear it!


>
> There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the Foundation.
> One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
> applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
> wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case
> the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
> meaningless.


That's a fair point. Though it would be possible for the WMF to be clearer
about this - if a post is advertised but  it could end up at several
different pay scales based on how senior a post it ends up being, that
could be noted. And the method by which salary for non-SF-based roles is
calculated could also be explained... "On our US Office scale this role
would pay $50-60k, but as candidates could be appointed anywhere in the
world we adjust salaries based on the cost of living where you are
located". I'm guessing the WMF has developed a systematic method of doing
this somehow.

Thanks,

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Peter Southwood]

Should they? Their cost of living expenses may vary considerably. 
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
Of Nathan
Sent: 11 September 2020 13:39
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on
job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

Dan,

Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get
roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana)  wrote:

> Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco
> as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
> organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my
> knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can
> confidently state that it won't be done now.
>
> There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the
Foundation.
> One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
> applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
> wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case
> the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
> meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging
> diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up
more
> junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range
> can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the right
> balance is.
>
> Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to
> see.
>
> Dan
>
> [1]:
>
>
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-
updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx
>
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating 
> wrote:
>
> > Good morning everyone!
> >
> > There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at
> least
> > salary ranges, on job ads.
> >
> > An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not
> disclosing
> > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary,
> is
> > harmful to equity in the workplace.
> >
> > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
> > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their
> > salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
> >
> > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who
> > have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again,
> more
> > commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)
> also
> > have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
> > norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
> > barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to
apply
> > for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your
> current
> > employment?)
> >
> > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is
disclosed
> > to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.
> However,
> > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose
the
> > expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
> > commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
> >
> > Thanks for reading,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > (1): https://showthesalary.com/
> > (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
> > ___
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> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Nathan]

Dan,

Shouldn't two candidates for the same position for the same company get
roughly the same salary, regardless of where they live?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 7:00 AM Dan Garry (Deskana)  wrote:

> Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco
> as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
> organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my
> knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can
> confidently state that it won't be done now.
>
> There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the Foundation.
> One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
> applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
> wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case
> the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
> meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging
> diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up more
> junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range
> can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the right
> balance is.
>
> Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to
> see.
>
> Dan
>
> [1]:
>
> https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx
>
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating 
> wrote:
>
> > Good morning everyone!
> >
> > There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at
> least
> > salary ranges, on job ads.
> >
> > An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not
> disclosing
> > expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary,
> is
> > harmful to equity in the workplace.
> >
> > Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
> > because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their
> > salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
> >
> > It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who
> > have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again,
> more
> > commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds)
> also
> > have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
> > norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
> > barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to apply
> > for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your
> current
> > employment?)
> >
> > I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> > mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed
> > to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary.
> However,
> > I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the
> > expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
> > commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
> >
> > Thanks for reading,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > (1): https://showthesalary.com/
> > (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Dan Garry (Deskana)]

Asking candidates for their current salary is prohibited in San Francisco
as of July 2018 [1] which means that, as a San Francisco based
organisation, the Foundation will undoubtedly not be doing this. To my
knowledge, this wasn't done by the Foundation before either, but we can
confidently state that it won't be done now.

There are some complexities in disclosing salary ranges for the Foundation.
One practice that can be used for encouraging diversity in candidate
applications is to specify that a position is open to candidates with a
wide range of experience and in all locations in the world, in which case
the salary range posted will be so large that it will basically be
meaningless. On the other hand, another good practice for encouraging
diversity is to source internally for senior positions, which opens up more
junior roles that can be sourced externally, in which case a salary range
can be more meaningful and helpful. It's hard to figure out what the right
balance is.

Regardless, more public transparency in salary banding would be good to see.

Dan

[1]:
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/san-francisco-bans-salary-history-questions.aspx

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 10:44, Chris Keating 
wrote:

> Good morning everyone!
>
> There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least
> salary ranges, on job ads.
>
> An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not disclosing
> expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary, is
> harmful to equity in the workplace.
>
> Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
> because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their
> salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
>
> It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who
> have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again, more
> commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds) also
> have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
> norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
> barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to apply
> for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your current
> employment?)
>
> I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed
> to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary. However,
> I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the
> expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
> commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
>
> Thanks for reading,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> (1): https://showthesalary.com/
> (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
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> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Jan Ainali]

This is a very interesting topic and I am intrigued by how the Humanitarian
OpenStreetMap Team has their salary models transparent on their website:
https://www.hotosm.org/salaries
Perhaps there is something to copy from that as well?

/Jan Ainali


Den fre 11 sep. 2020 kl 11:44 skrev Chris Keating <
chriskeatingw...@gmail.com>:

> Good morning everyone!
>
> There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least
> salary ranges, on job ads.
>
> An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not disclosing
> expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary, is
> harmful to equity in the workplace.
>
> Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
> because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their
> salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.
>
> It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who
> have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again, more
> commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds) also
> have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
> norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
> barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to apply
> for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your current
> employment?)
>
> I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
> mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed
> to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary. However,
> I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the
> expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
> commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
>
> Thanks for reading,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> (1): https://showthesalary.com/
> (2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Foundation and affiliates disclosing salaries on job ads & the effect of this on workplace equity

[Chris Keating]

Good morning everyone!

There's a campaign(1) for nonprofits to disclose the salaries, or at least
salary ranges, on job ads.

An increasing body of evidence(2) shows that practices like not disclosing
expected pay, and requiring applicants to disclose their current salary, is
harmful to equity in the workplace.

Not disclosing salaries affects pay levels within the organisation -
because white men are usually relatively confident in negotiating their
salaries upwards, so tend to end up with a better deal.

It can also affect the diversity of candidates who apply. Candidates who
have stronger networks within the industry they're moving into (again, more
commonly white men with privileged social and educational backgrounds) also
have clear expectations because they are 'in the know' about industry
norms, while people who don't, find the lack of salary information a
barrier to application. (After all, why take the time and effort to apply
for a job when you have no idea how the likely pay compares to your current
employment?)

I know practices vary within the movement - I believe the WMF never
mentions salaries on ads, and I don't know whether the range is disclosed
to applicants or not - some chapters I know do advertise a salary. However,
I'd urge all entities within the movement that hire staff to disclose the
expected salary ranges for posts they are advertising, as part of their
commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.

Thanks for reading,

Chris



(1): https://showthesalary.com/
(2): e.g. at https://showthesalary.com/resources/
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