RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules ?????
Matt, Most Radar systems are built with extremely sensitive receivers and extremely high gain antennas that can detect things like a double echo which means it can receive the signal that was generated by itself and then bounced back to the antenna not once but multiple times. In many cases is also designed to sit there in a passive mode to detect other signals and not give out it's own position which gives an enemy an easy target to attack. Some of it is used to direct weapons to it's proper targets, some if it as navigation aids for military aircraft the just like civilian air travel. Do you want to let WISP's be responsible for disabling some of that technology? Please do not get this list started thinking that WISP's and or the manufacturers are much smarter in radio engineering than a government agency who has spent billions of dollars in research and construction of radio systems that are partially responsible for the incredibly cheap radios we have today. Most of what we use on the air today has been in use or manufactured in one form or another by the government since the 60's. You haven't heard of it because for most of those years it was considered part of a national secret and any of us who did know about it are not allowed (including the manufacturers) to say a thing about it. RF Engineering, complex radio systems and digital modulation techniques have been around for much longer that you realize, where do you think many of the geniuses who built this stuff got their experience in the first place? Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: Matt Larsen - Lists [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 2:32 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules ? I think everyone is missing the real problem with 5.4ghz. How big of a piece of crap is our military radar that a $49 minipci wireless card and a homemade pringles antenna can render it useless??? ;^) Matt Larsen vistabeam.com J. Vogel wrote: Fair enough. I might have been a little on the touchy side myself there. In the context of what I had been reading, particularly a comment about how the use of 5.4 was going to require someone to install another phone line just to handle complaints from the DoD, coupled with the current excitement around the list that some WISPs have *gasp* been using un-certified gear, it appeared to me that your question might have been motivated by suspicion in that regard. Thanks for the clarification. John Vogel -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] per customer computer pricing
We block all P2P traffic (thanks to MT). I tell this to my customers upfront, it says so in our TOS in bold. We are running with a 3meg all you can eat fibre connection to the internet. The gov in Canada is trying to find a way to collect royalties from the ISP, who then will collect it from their clients, just like we collect their GST (general sales tax) and PST (provincial sales tax). Right now not even I can download from P2P and that is way it is going to stay, we don't even allow bit-torrent. Most times these things are used in an illegal context. You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca Office Phone: 905 349-2084 Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm skype cajeptha Mac Dearman wrote: The way I make them understand is that I tell them that I have hundreds of businesses (call them by name) that use less than 3gigs of data transfer a month. I also tell them that it is relatively impossible for them to even get close to 2 gigs of transfer by sending emails, general surfing, goggling...etc without hitting the P2P stuff downloading movies music. We do limit p2p on this network as well as limit residential threads onto the internet. We have always shaped the P2P on the network as a whole, but only in the last 2 months have we limited the connections. I must confess that it brought the bandwidth utilization down by 7mbps. That is a TRAMATIC difference! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of rabbtux rabbtux Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] per customer computer pricing Yes, but how do you explain what 5G/month is to the average sub?? They worry because they don't see this with the 'big boys' that advertize don't sevre their area. Do you find it takes alot more selling/education for each sub? On 2/17/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tell my residential subs that we don't care if they have a hundred PCs. We don't have a cap on bandwidth that is available, but we do tell them that with each subscription is included 5gigs of data transfer per month. We sale bandwidth for a living and it is metered just like electricity and water. Help yourself to all you want, but it is not a free for all or a buffet where you can eat all you want for the low low price of $8.99. I realize I will probably get a scalding rebuke over my 5gigs, but I don't have copper in the ground or FTTH to allow a Hogs feast on my bandwidth. I run a very successful WIRELESS ISP and the BH pipes and APs are all limited in the amount of data they can carry. That is not my fault, but it is my problem and that is how I deal with it! I never have a complaint and I sell a fantastic service. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Nash Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 12:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] per customer computer pricing We just tell them that the fact that they have more computers will inevitably increase the expected bandwidth usage. We're flexible on it. Essentially, if we have a customer that is clearly a business setup, we charge more. If it is an ultra-geek setup, we'll charge it. If it's a mom pop shop that just so happens to go over the threshold, we don't worry about it. Mark Nash Network Engineer UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: rabbtux rabbtux [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:45 AM Subject: [WISPA] per customer computer pricing I noticed that many WISPs have plans based on how many customer computers are hooked up to the customer's service. How does that work? Your installer counts computers initially, but then what? I have several power users with 5-10 computers and would like to move them to another plan, but need to understand how others do it. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: NON U.S. and Canada WISPs? was RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules ...
If we want WISPA to be the IEEE of the world, then all this FCC (US) stuff must be taken off the general list. You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca Office Phone: 905 349-2084 Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm skype cajeptha Patrick Leary wrote: Sam, you are right. During this whole thread I have been reflexive about assuming U.S. and I did assume you discussing it from a U.S. standpoint. I was wrong to assume that and I apologize. To all non-U.S. (well, this really does include Canada since the domains share so much in common from a UL standpoint), this must indeed be mind numbing. What would be VERY interesting would be for the non-North American WISPs to tell us their opinions about compliance relative to their regions. I have assumptions there too, but MUCH less knowledge and experience so the better part of valor is shut up and listen. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Tetherow Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about beingsticker conscious or not?? You know Patrick, I for the most part have respect for you and your opinion, but when it comes to this issue you are so blinded by it you don't even stop to think about your reply. I stated it that way because I have absolutely no idea if rabbtux rabbtux is in the US or not. It is a gmail account so it could be anywhere world wide. They stated that they were looking for something that would work with an MT/SR5 combination so I replied that if the sticker is not important (which it probably isn't since they are use an MT/SR5 as the AP) they could use a RB112 and CM9 with good result. I added on the fact that Tranzeo makes eqiupment that will meet their specifications and is FCC approved so that they (and others) know that there is certified equipment that meet their criteria. I will echo Mark's (?) comment from somewhere in the fact that in the certified realm there isn't much that comes close to the flexibility and power of either StarOS or MT. The problem with the Premium CPE is that it attaches to a Premium PROPRIETARY AP. The power of StarOS and MT is in the fact that the user is not stuck buying everything from a single manufacturer. If PCEngines EOLs a model of wrap board there is always gateworks or MT. If StarOS adds a new advanced routing protocol MT users can switch with only the change of an AP and gain the full advantage and in some cases they doesn't even have to change AP hardware. If Smartbridges equipment goes to crap you can change to Senao, if Senao EOLs a CPE you can switch to Tranzeo. In the Premium world if Trango decides to EOL a line of equipment or manufacturing quality tanks you are stuck with: 1. buy refurb/used equipment 2. hang dual APs to handle new growth 3. swap equipment around in your network so that vendor/product A is on the east side of your coverage area... 4. Replace CPEs with new line of product There is a LOT more to the certified debate than the fact that Motorola, Trango and Alvarion have finally gotten CPE price down to $200. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Patrick Leary wrote: Sticker conscious? So this is what we've become as an industry? Following the very clear laws, which were once again just reiterated to us after another in a long chain of WISP visits, or not has now been reduced to simply being sticker conscious or not sticker conscious? Why not go further and call yourself Illegal and proud or just I don't give a ? Let's not have any more gee, I can't afford to be legal! That's not an argument that is credible today, with the range from legal cheap to premium CPE running from about $170 to sub-$300 -- that's cheap. My God, 5.4 is going to be a massive mess. OET will have to install a special phone line just to handle the incoming DoD complaint calls. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Tetherow Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] cost effective reliable 5.8G cpe suggestions? RB112+CM9+Rootenna if you are not sticker conscious. If you are sticker conscious I use the Tranzeo TR5a-24/20 with MT/CM9 setups and they work great. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless rabbtux rabbtux wrote: Not to stir the fcc sticker debate, but what gear is out there today that is compatable with a MT/SR5 access point? Looking for lower cost CPEs for 1-5 mile deployments. Thanks -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules ?????
Hi, The following question seems germaine to this thread. Who would I talk to at the FCC about the following: -- if I want to use equipment from an overseas-based manufacturer, where would I go to or who could I talk to at the FCC to know certification procedures, equipment allowed or not in licensed or unlicensed spectrum? -- is there a list of FCC approved manufacturers? Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] VOIP Suggestions
We are looking to start offering VOIP to our customers. What are your suggestions to get started? Roll our own? Resell somebody elses? Also what things should I avoid, or common mistakes? Thanks for any advice you can give. _ /-\ ndrew -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] No, Patrick, it's not about the stickers...
This could be the same path as the arguments for and against Open Source are taking these days. In the end, Open Source is winning... However, I see a bad apples component to Mark's argument. If the rules are to allow us to mix / match any individually certified components into a whole new component, there will be some idiots out there that will throw an amplifier or whatever else in between, just to be different That's what the FCC is scared of...junk all over the place. I see nothing wrong with piecing together components like Mikrotik, WRAP boards, CM9's, SRx's, etc. as long as we stay within the technical limits of the law. there are those here that will scream at me (us, and don't forget that..) for doing this, and to those I say, go certify it! I have an idea though. Well, a repeat idea. I'm not sure how the certification process works, but wouldn't it be interesting to get all these open source pieces certified by the FCC, and then put it to bed ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 11:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] No, Patrick, it's not about the stickers... On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:32:42 -0800, Patrick Leary wrote Sticker conscious? So this is what we've become as an industry? Following the very clear laws, which were once again just reiterated to us after another in a long chain of WISP visits, or not has now been reduced to simply being sticker conscious or not sticker conscious? Why not go further and call yourself Illegal and proud or just I don't give a ? Let's not have any more gee, I can't afford to be legal! That's not an argument that is credible today, with the range from legal cheap to premium CPE running from about $170 to sub-$300 - - that's cheap. No, Patrick, it's NOT about the sticker. It's about the fact that I can assemble a geek squad of a few people, that, using freely available software and cheap and easily available hardware, can BUILD FOR OURSELVES better priced and 'better suited for WISP use' equipment in a few weeks than Alvarion, Motorola and Trango have managed to do in years. Not only are we better, we're faster, we advance quicker, and we do more with less, AND CAN PRODUCE IT ALL COMPLIANT WITH THE TECHNICAL LIMITS OF THE LAW, faster than any larger company can dream of doing. Why? Because we live in a free country and we have free minds. But we can't do it legally. Why? Because the rules now PREVENT us from doing it and protect the interests of Alvarion and Motorola, rather than enhance the industry. It's because the best and brightest DO NOT build systems. The best and brightest at building sofware are building software. The best and brightest at building cheap radios are doing so. And the rest of us are assembling the parts we need to do the job that NO MAKER OF CERTIFIED GEAR HAS YET TO ASPIRE to, much less produce. WE ARE CAPABLE of putting those bits together, like it or not. That's why Apple Computers based the latest iteration of their operating system on something produced mostly by amateurs and geeks and ordinary schmucksfor FREE. It was better than ANYTHING Apple could pay any number of software engineers to build on their own. Period. Thus, FreeBSD became the basis of OS X. AGain, the capability of the ordinary schmucks proved to be a giant leap ahead of the #2 choice in pc's. My God, 5.4 is going to be a massive mess. OET will have to install a special phone line just to handle the incoming DoD complaint calls. Well, certainly, NOT A ONE OF US ON THIS LIST wants that. But if you wish to become an advocate for this industry, THEN STOP DEMANDING WE STOP BEING CREATIVE AND ADVANCING OUR INDUSTRY AND INSTEAD BE HELD BACK BY YOUR COMPANY AND THE OTHER manufacturers, and start helping us get a legal and regulatory environment that works, instead of one that's hopelessly broken, so we CAN. I hate to break it to you, but if today, Alvarion, Motorola, Trango, and a host of other names like them vanished from the map, the WISP business could and would go on, and we could do it purely with the talents and skills that exist with the individual operators. TURN IT LOOSE instead of attempting to bottle it up. Or is your loyalty purely to the company and not to US? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Tetherow Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] cost effective reliable 5.8G cpe suggestions? RB112+CM9+Rootenna if you are not sticker conscious. If you are sticker conscious I use the Tranzeo TR5a-24/20 with MT/CM9 setups and they work great. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless rabbtux rabbtux wrote: Not to stir the fcc sticker debate,
[WISPA] Getting the sticker.
Anyone understand the full process of getting something certified at the FCC ? I.e. I'd like to send in an RB112 with SR9, pigtail, LMR jumper, and Pac Wireless Yagi to get certified as a combination. And, every other combination I use. As I understand the rules, that would allow me to call that combination legal, as well as giving it a separate product name that I (or anyone I subcontracted) could resell it as, and then put this sticker conscious crap to silence. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] VOIP Suggestions
A few thoughts... :-) If you are going to roll it out on your own, there are open source products that is the easiest way to get started and will realistically handle your first 300-500 users (depending on call ratios). This is a good entry point for an ISP that is focusing on residential accounts. As you scale, using a true proxy (open source such as SER or a commercial product) will be needed. Depending on what you have budgeted to kick off your voip project, your time may be worth skipping the opensource route and looking to outsource or purchase a canned solution. Keep in mind that if you start this yourself, you need to make sure that VoIP is going to be a major piece of your business. If you think the FCC filing for a WISP is a pain, wait until you see what the FCC throws you as an interconnected VoIP provider. Additionally, you must make provisions for e911 services, and negotiate origination/termination agreements if you are not going to be facilities based. When we started a little over two years ago, the tier 1 vendors wouldn't even pay attention to us until we passed the 4 million minute per month mark. I have seen many startup ITSPs that spent way too much time negotiating fractions of a cent on origination/termination costs while neglecting things that mattered more at that point. It is important that you utilize the highest quality routes you have available. Saving a half a cent a minute doesn't mean that much to a VoIP provider if your minutes are not that great to begin with. If you are not facilities based, and you cannot work directly with a Teir 1 provider, make sure you understand how the traffic is routed once it hits your provider. A simple traceroute to a providers proxy means nothing. Focus on quality termination for your clients, once your volume is up, negotiate further discounts. When it comes to termination/origination, you get what you pay for as a startup bidding the business out to the lowest cost per minute provider. A few questions for you: - Are you looking to roll VoIP out to residential or business clients - What regions are you looking to offer VoIP in. If you have the NPA-NXX it would be helpful - What equipment (if any) have you already purchased for this project - Have you put together any pricing models are do you have an idea what your local market will accept? _ Don Annas 336.510.3800 x111 336.510.3801 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.TriadTelecom.com _ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:33 AM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] VOIP Suggestions We are looking to start offering VOIP to our customers. What are your suggestions to get started? Roll our own? Resell somebody elses? Also what things should I avoid, or common mistakes? Thanks for any advice you can give. _ /-\ ndrew -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
Steve Stroh wrote: Mark: You're overlooking one critical difference between PCs and Wireless systems. PCs are UNintentional radiators, with radiated power levels that are very, very low. Wireless systems are intentional radiators, at significant power levels, and through unintended mixing, have the potential to disrupt other communications systems, including critical systems like public safety. This is a very real fear of the FCC, borne out over nearly 100 years of experience now with the evolution of wireless technology. These things DO happen, and having a proliferation of unlicensed systems out there with significant power levels (EIRP) can cause havoc. When a WISP slaps together a system, do they hook it up to a spectrum analyzer to insure that substantially all the radiated energy is contained within the desired band? No, they don't. When a WISP slaps together a certified system do they hook it up to a spectrum analyzer? Do they spot check their existing equipment with a spectrum analyzer? Faulty/failing hardware is where most of the real interference issues are going to come from. Well, that and every crappy cordless phone/baby monitor/microwave oven... Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Um, the FCC is getting innovation and advancement - look at Clearwire. When there weren't Clearwire, NextWave, Sprint Nextel and ATT actively deploying Broadband Wireless Internet Access, the FCC needed WISPs. Now they've got those big players starting to deploy and they can point to them as a success story for Broadband Wireless Internet Access. Thanks, Steve On Feb 16, 2007, at Feb 16 11:38 PM, wispa wrote: I'd say that that's probable. Further, I'd say that at least 75% of those who did or do not don't even know about it. Especially, if you're a non- wireless ISP, exactly why would you know about it? Wireless guys are more likely to have some knowlege of the FCC.. non-wireless... The FCC is foreign and irrelevant to them. If the government officials take it personal, we're doomed. We're all doomed. If they see things as must get them under our control then there's no longer any good going to happen. It becomes adversary vs adversary. Let me predict that form 445 will get perhaps HALF that response. Again, who's even going to know? I think that's the wrong approach, and along with you, I sincerely doubt it can be gotten past a regulatory body. I suggested component, rather than assembly certification. This way there IS a responsible party. The maker of the equipment is responsible if it is not within spec, and the user is responsible if the user fails to follow the rules concerning EIRP and out of band emissions. Look, there's GOOD precedent for this. Do any of you remember when PC's had to be FCC certified? In the FCC's own terminology - in their own words, even - assemblies using normally compliant parts can be considered compliant and require only a DoC, or Declaration of Conformity. No testing needed. For instance, the SAME mini-pci card the FCC wants certified as an assembly with a WRAP board is perfectly legal to stuff into a laptop with nothing other than a DoC by the maker of the laptop! The only thing this would require... is some specific guidelines from the FCC for component certification by the manufacturer, and the ability for us to file DoC with the FCC for obviously legal assemblies that obviously comply with the intentional radiator standards, because we file for combinations of parts with CERTIFIED behavior and it would be almost simplistic to both do and oversee. So, WOULD I file DoC's on the parts combinations I'd like to use, and then sticker them so * I * am responsible for those? Of course. If Wistron Neweb wants to sell 500K CM-9's let them certify their behavior. Let PacWireless certify the patterns and gain of thier antennas. Let Ubiquiti certify the behavior of SR-9's and SR-2's. It makes little sense to test, retest, re-retest over and over and over, the same basic parts to the same standards. If Wistron's mini-pci fails to perform as spec'd, is it the fault of ... Builder X, who certified the assembly? Or the fault of Wistron? If PacWireless antennas are sold as 21 db gain and are really 27, is that the fault of Builder X or PacWireless? If accountability is what they want, THIS IS IT. Again, the grey area you talk about concerning the use of identical parts of a different brand is actually resolved, from a regulatory viewpoint, rather than being gray. THIS I would argue, not that individual unknown parts be assembled and then magically declared conforming. Like it's going to matter if the case is made of aluminum, steel, or stainless, and whether it's 6X8 or 16X12 as to whether the EIRP, out of band emissions, and so on, meet the legal requirements. Of course it does not. Again, this process of using compliant parts with a DoC on file would be a great way to solve ALL of this. The FCC
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
Tom DeReggi wrote: ! --- SNIP --- 4) We discussed the option for self/group effort to certifying gear combinations. It won't be an option that will be viable. It must be a Manufacturer that applied for equipment certification, as there must be an accountable/responsible/liable party. A group applying for certification, would have to take liabilty and prove their ability to be able to be accountable. I'm not the police and not going to tell you what to use, but any way you slice it, make your own StarOS / Mikrotik gear is illegal (non-certified) in the US. The only way to not be illegal, is to buy it from a manufacturer that has certified their combination, or you become a manufacturer yourself and apply for certification of your combination. The fact that XYZ certified the combination, does not make your combination certified. UNLESS you convince XYZ to be responsible and liable for the compliance of the gear that you bought elsewhere. A MPCI card and antenna is not enough to be a certified system. There are other components involved like Main boards and cases, and testing gear during the QC stage to verify compliance. So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless ! --- SNIP --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP Suggestions
Andrew Niemantsverdriet wrote: We are looking to start offering VOIP to our customers. What are your suggestions to get started? Roll our own? Resell somebody elses? Also what things should I avoid, or common mistakes? Thanks for any advice you can give. _ /-\ ndrew It depends on whether you are selling to Resi or Biz. Due to E-911, LNP and call quality, you may want to partner with a local CLEC. (LNP is the ability to port the customer's number, so that they can keep it with you. No one wants to give up their phone number). Why partner? PRI inter-connect to the PSTN will provide you with great call quality for your clients. The less time your call is on the Internet, the better the quality. (You can control call quality on your network). Most ISP's won't see more than 500 customers unless they have 5000 BB customers now - and want to hump on selling it. Boingo just announced a $7.95 wi-fi VoIP offering, so Resi voice is getting close to zero (Skype now costs a few dollars per year). White label is better because YOU don't have to become a VOIP expert, just a VoIP installer and marketer. Even with 300 clients, you will be spending a great deal of time keeping the voice rolling - the Asterisk box running, the LNP, e-911, 411, billing, O/T, etc. It depends on your commitment to the project. And how will you market it? Upsell is usually between 5-10%. VZ is blowing millions in advertising on FiOS to get a take rate they say is 12-15% (depending on the report). Just a few thoughts for you. I can certainly take you through a decision tree to help you find out what is best suited for you right now and help you plan for growth. Thank you. Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. - NSP Strategist We Help ISPs Connect Communicate 813.963.5884 http://www.marketingIDEAguy.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP Suggestions
Thanks for the reply Don, To answer your questions: 1. We are looking at offering service to mostly residential customers but some small business users have expressed interest. I doubt we will do any of our large business customers until we get everything working. 2. The regions that I am looking at are: 406 628 and then the Billings MT region, these two initially 3. No pricing models yet but judging by competitors $20-$40 / month for residential is the going rate. This is an all you can eat type plan. We are hoping to fall in the middle at $30/month but that is all subject to change. I do have some experience with Asterisk (we also build PBX's for business) but I am not sure that is what I want. It seems hard to scale. We have not purchased anything yet in terms of hardware. We do have some parts and pieces laying around as replacement parts for any of our installed PBX's but most of those are just Digium TDM400p with FXO modules but I don't think 4 phone lines is going to get us very far :) So ideally I want something that can sit in our NOC and do the job, but outsourcing might be the best choice for ease of maintenance. I can control the traffic all the way to our NOC so I can ensure good QoS at least to there. Our NOC is located at a Tier 2 provider. We have tried to partner with them but they said they won't be ready until this summer. A year ago they said it would be summer 2006. So basically I am not holding my breath. On 2/19/07, Don Annas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few thoughts... :-) If you are going to roll it out on your own, there are open source products that is the easiest way to get started and will realistically handle your first 300-500 users (depending on call ratios). This is a good entry point for an ISP that is focusing on residential accounts. As you scale, using a true proxy (open source such as SER or a commercial product) will be needed. Depending on what you have budgeted to kick off your voip project, your time may be worth skipping the opensource route and looking to outsource or purchase a canned solution. Keep in mind that if you start this yourself, you need to make sure that VoIP is going to be a major piece of your business. If you think the FCC filing for a WISP is a pain, wait until you see what the FCC throws you as an interconnected VoIP provider. Additionally, you must make provisions for e911 services, and negotiate origination/termination agreements if you are not going to be facilities based. When we started a little over two years ago, the tier 1 vendors wouldn't even pay attention to us until we passed the 4 million minute per month mark. I have seen many startup ITSPs that spent way too much time negotiating fractions of a cent on origination/termination costs while neglecting things that mattered more at that point. It is important that you utilize the highest quality routes you have available. Saving a half a cent a minute doesn't mean that much to a VoIP provider if your minutes are not that great to begin with. If you are not facilities based, and you cannot work directly with a Teir 1 provider, make sure you understand how the traffic is routed once it hits your provider. A simple traceroute to a providers proxy means nothing. Focus on quality termination for your clients, once your volume is up, negotiate further discounts. When it comes to termination/origination, you get what you pay for as a startup bidding the business out to the lowest cost per minute provider. A few questions for you: - Are you looking to roll VoIP out to residential or business clients - What regions are you looking to offer VoIP in. If you have the NPA-NXX it would be helpful - What equipment (if any) have you already purchased for this project - Have you put together any pricing models are do you have an idea what your local market will accept? _ Don Annas 336.510.3800 x111 336.510.3801 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.TriadTelecom.com _ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:33 AM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] VOIP Suggestions We are looking to start offering VOIP to our customers. What are your suggestions to get started? Roll our own? Resell somebody elses? Also what things should I avoid, or common mistakes? Thanks for any advice you can give. _ /-\ ndrew -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] No, Patrick, it's not about the stickers...
Rick Smith wrote: This could be the same path as the arguments for and against Open Source are taking these days. In the end, Open Source is winning... However, I see a bad apples component to Mark's argument. If the rules are to allow us to mix / match any individually certified components into a whole new component, there will be some idiots out there that will throw an amplifier or whatever else in between, just to be different That's what the FCC is scared of...junk all over the place. And that would be different from now? If an operator does not want to abide by the rules the component changes aren't going to make a difference. I don't see how the component rule would be a bad thing, if it is possible to certify radio/software/antenna sets. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless I see nothing wrong with piecing together components like Mikrotik, WRAP boards, CM9's, SRx's, etc. as long as we stay within the technical limits of the law. there are those here that will scream at me (us, and don't forget that..) for doing this, and to those I say, go certify it! I have an idea though. Well, a repeat idea. I'm not sure how the certification process works, but wouldn't it be interesting to get all these open source pieces certified by the FCC, and then put it to bed ? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: NON U.S. and Canada WISPs? was RE: [WISPA] Following the FCCrules ...
? The IEEE is a (mostly) worldwide society of engineers who create standards. ETSI is the European version with less international relevance. There are official liaisons between the groups for various standards groups. Neither of these are trade groups and neither drive any standards that are created (that happens by trade groups like the Wi-Fi Alliance and the WiMAX Forum). WISPA is a trade group as it is made up of owners or principals of commercial providers. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl A jeptha Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 5:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: NON U.S. and Canada WISPs? was RE: [WISPA] Following the FCCrules ... If we want WISPA to be the IEEE of the world, then all this FCC (US) stuff must be taken off the general list. You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca Office Phone: 905 349-2084 Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm skype cajeptha Patrick Leary wrote: Sam, you are right. During this whole thread I have been reflexive about assuming U.S. and I did assume you discussing it from a U.S. standpoint. I was wrong to assume that and I apologize. To all non-U.S. (well, this really does include Canada since the domains share so much in common from a UL standpoint), this must indeed be mind numbing. What would be VERY interesting would be for the non-North American WISPs to tell us their opinions about compliance relative to their regions. I have assumptions there too, but MUCH less knowledge and experience so the better part of valor is shut up and listen. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Tetherow Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about beingsticker conscious or not?? You know Patrick, I for the most part have respect for you and your opinion, but when it comes to this issue you are so blinded by it you don't even stop to think about your reply. I stated it that way because I have absolutely no idea if rabbtux rabbtux is in the US or not. It is a gmail account so it could be anywhere world wide. They stated that they were looking for something that would work with an MT/SR5 combination so I replied that if the sticker is not important (which it probably isn't since they are use an MT/SR5 as the AP) they could use a RB112 and CM9 with good result. I added on the fact that Tranzeo makes eqiupment that will meet their specifications and is FCC approved so that they (and others) know that there is certified equipment that meet their criteria. I will echo Mark's (?) comment from somewhere in the fact that in the certified realm there isn't much that comes close to the flexibility and power of either StarOS or MT. The problem with the Premium CPE is that it attaches to a Premium PROPRIETARY AP. The power of StarOS and MT is in the fact that the user is not stuck buying everything from a single manufacturer. If PCEngines EOLs a model of wrap board there is always gateworks or MT. If StarOS adds a new advanced routing protocol MT users can switch with only the change of an AP and gain the full advantage and in some cases they doesn't even have to change AP hardware. If Smartbridges equipment goes to crap you can change to Senao, if Senao EOLs a CPE you can switch to Tranzeo. In the Premium world if Trango decides to EOL a line of equipment or manufacturing quality tanks you are stuck with: 1. buy refurb/used equipment 2. hang dual APs to handle new growth 3. swap equipment around in your network so that vendor/product A is on the east side of your coverage area... 4. Replace CPEs with new line of product There is a LOT more to the certified debate than the fact that Motorola, Trango and Alvarion have finally gotten CPE price down to $200. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Patrick Leary wrote: Sticker conscious? So this is what we've become as an industry? Following the very clear laws, which were once again just reiterated to us after another in a long chain of WISP visits, or not has now been reduced to simply being sticker conscious or not sticker conscious? Why not go further and call yourself Illegal and proud or just I don't give a ? Let's not have any more gee, I can't afford to be legal! That's not an argument that is credible today, with the range from legal cheap to premium CPE running from about $170 to sub-$300 -- that's cheap. My God, 5.4 is going to be a massive mess. OET will have to install a special phone line just to handle the incoming DoD complaint calls. Patrick
RE: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] Following theFCC rules ?????
Mario, Most of what you are looking for is located on the FCC Web site under the Office of Engineering and Technology section. To certify something or to understand the certification procedures, you can go directly to the cert labs: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm To find what equipment is allowed (or not allowed, which is easier to narrow down in a search), search the equipment authorization database: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm The link above is the same to find approved manufacturers. There is no one list since there are thousands of companies under Part 15 alone (remember, Part 15 covers gazillions of consumer devices too). Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Pommier Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] Following theFCC rules ? Hi, The following question seems germaine to this thread. Who would I talk to at the FCC about the following: -- if I want to use equipment from an overseas-based manufacturer, where would I go to or who could I talk to at the FCC to know certification procedures, equipment allowed or not in licensed or unlicensed spectrum? -- is there a list of FCC approved manufacturers? Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] FollowingtheFCC rules ?????
thanks patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] FollowingtheFCC rules ? Mario, Most of what you are looking for is located on the FCC Web site under the Office of Engineering and Technology section. To certify something or to understand the certification procedures, you can go directly to the cert labs: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm To find what equipment is allowed (or not allowed, which is easier to narrow down in a search), search the equipment authorization database: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm The link above is the same to find approved manufacturers. There is no one list since there are thousands of companies under Part 15 alone (remember, Part 15 covers gazillions of consumer devices too). Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Pommier Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] Following theFCC rules ? Hi, The following question seems germaine to this thread. Who would I talk to at the FCC about the following: -- if I want to use equipment from an overseas-based manufacturer, where would I go to or who could I talk to at the FCC to know certification procedures, equipment allowed or not in licensed or unlicensed spectrum? -- is there a list of FCC approved manufacturers? Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
George Rogato wrote: Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. Then if DLink can certify a PCMCIA card with drivers for use with any SBC (a laptop). Then why are people saying we cannot certify a CM9 and a RouterOS drivers and a couple of antennas (Rootenna, PW dish, etc) and then slap them into any SBC? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. That would be uncertified. This is not a debatable point. This would be taking a consumer device, which is built to permit self-installation into a device for which the FCC says there must be a professional installation. These are the most confusing parts of the rules for novices, but basically if you are installing for another end user, you are assumed to be professional, which actually imposes certain liabilities and responsibilities on you. Further, this would void the certification EVEN if it still met the manufacturer specs because, for better of worse, only the OEM manufacturer can self-certify antenna changes. George, you were in the room at the FCC with me when they told us this so you know it. It is impossible to forget since Marlon pounded them about for most of the meeting but they would not budge that only a manufacturer can pick and chose additional antennas and then only antennas of equal or less power AND with similar specs (relative to emissions on sidelobs, etc.). Really all that was done in that ruling was to make the permissive change rules more simple. None of this was done for the protection of the manufacturers, but rather to make sure the FCC had one throat to choke. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] VOIP Suggestions
Do you have any CLECs in your market that understand the LNP game (such as Telcove or TWTelecom)? If Telcove is in the area, then starting out facilities based would be very easy as they have worked very closely w/ Vonage and other ITSPs and understand the VoIP service provider market. Otherwise, you will want to look at someone who has a directly relationship with a provider such as legacy Level 3 that can provide your originating DIDs. I would probably look at bringing in the lowest cost PRI that you can find for local termination (not originating any numbers on that unless it is with telcove). You will find that most of your traffic is local calls and it doesn't make since to pay per minute when you can just dump them on a local PRI. All of your LD and inbound would be originated/terminate via SIP in this model by interfacing with a provider that has Teir one agreements. I will be happy to discuss pricing with you off list if you would like to look at Triad Telecom for that. Non facilities based origination in your market is a littler pricier as most of the regions fall into 2nd and 3rd bands as far as origination pricing per minute. Here is what I see. Your most economical locations to service from an origination standpoint will be: BILLINGS BRIDGER COLUMBUS FROMBERG HARDIN JOLIET LAUREL RED LODGE Since this is mostly residential, you could easily service these areas and maintain a very profitable cost model: BELGRADE BOZEMAN BUTTE CLYDE PARK COLSTRIP COOKE CITY CUT BANK DILLON GALLATIN GATEWAY GARDINER GLENDIVE GREAT FALLS HELENA LEWISTOWN LIVINGSTON MANHATTAN MILES CITY MISSOULA SHELBY SIDNEY THREE FORKS WEST YELLOWSTONE WILSALL May I ask who your current IP provider is. Also, do you have an IP that I might be able to trace too? Thanks. - Don -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP Suggestions Thanks for the reply Don, To answer your questions: 1. We are looking at offering service to mostly residential customers but some small business users have expressed interest. I doubt we will do any of our large business customers until we get everything working. 2. The regions that I am looking at are: 406 628 and then the Billings MT region, these two initially 3. No pricing models yet but judging by competitors $20-$40 / month for residential is the going rate. This is an all you can eat type plan. We are hoping to fall in the middle at $30/month but that is all subject to change. I do have some experience with Asterisk (we also build PBX's for business) but I am not sure that is what I want. It seems hard to scale. We have not purchased anything yet in terms of hardware. We do have some parts and pieces laying around as replacement parts for any of our installed PBX's but most of those are just Digium TDM400p with FXO modules but I don't think 4 phone lines is going to get us very far :) So ideally I want something that can sit in our NOC and do the job, but outsourcing might be the best choice for ease of maintenance. I can control the traffic all the way to our NOC so I can ensure good QoS at least to there. Our NOC is located at a Tier 2 provider. We have tried to partner with them but they said they won't be ready until this summer. A year ago they said it would be summer 2006. So basically I am not holding my breath. On 2/19/07, Don Annas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few thoughts... :-) If you are going to roll it out on your own, there are open source products that is the easiest way to get started and will realistically handle your first 300-500 users (depending on call ratios). This is a good entry point for an ISP that is focusing on residential accounts. As you scale, using a true proxy (open source such as SER or a commercial product) will be needed. Depending on what you have budgeted to kick off your voip project, your time may be worth skipping the opensource route and looking to outsource or purchase a canned solution. Keep in mind that if you start this yourself, you need to make sure that VoIP is going to be a major piece of your business. If you think the FCC filing for a WISP is a pain, wait until you see what the FCC throws you as an interconnected VoIP provider. Additionally, you must make provisions for e911 services, and negotiate origination/termination agreements if you are not going to be facilities based. When we started a little over two years ago, the tier 1 vendors wouldn't even pay attention to us until we passed the 4 million minute per month mark. I have seen many startup ITSPs that spent way too much time negotiating fractions of a cent on origination/termination costs while neglecting things that mattered more at that point. It is important that you utilize the highest quality routes you have available. Saving a half a cent a minute doesn't mean that
Re: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] FollowingtheFCC rules ?????
DITO. Rick Smith wrote: thanks patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] FollowingtheFCC rules ? Mario, Most of what you are looking for is located on the FCC Web site under the Office of Engineering and Technology section. To certify something or to understand the certification procedures, you can go directly to the cert labs: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm To find what equipment is allowed (or not allowed, which is easier to narrow down in a search), search the equipment authorization database: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm The link above is the same to find approved manufacturers. There is no one list since there are thousands of companies under Part 15 alone (remember, Part 15 covers gazillions of consumer devices too). Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Pommier Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] Following theFCC rules ? Hi, The following question seems germaine to this thread. Who would I talk to at the FCC about the following: -- if I want to use equipment from an overseas-based manufacturer, where would I go to or who could I talk to at the FCC to know certification procedures, equipment allowed or not in licensed or unlicensed spectrum? -- is there a list of FCC approved manufacturers? Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA]FollowingtheFCC rules ?????
By the way, in this business many companies have been sold, merged, or otherwise changed names so when you perform a generic search, use more than the name. So the name under which something was certified, may now reflect a difference company name and the database search might not locate it. Ideally, you want to use the company's first three characters of its grantee code. You can find these on the back of any of its certified radios or you can call them and simply ask, What's your FCC grantee code? Any legal company will know exactly what you mean. For example, ours is LKT Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:29 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA]FollowingtheFCC rules ? thanks patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] FollowingtheFCC rules ? Mario, Most of what you are looking for is located on the FCC Web site under the Office of Engineering and Technology section. To certify something or to understand the certification procedures, you can go directly to the cert labs: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm To find what equipment is allowed (or not allowed, which is easier to narrow down in a search), search the equipment authorization database: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm The link above is the same to find approved manufacturers. There is no one list since there are thousands of companies under Part 15 alone (remember, Part 15 covers gazillions of consumer devices too). Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Pommier Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: using equipment from overseas companies Re: [WISPA] Following theFCC rules ? Hi, The following question seems germaine to this thread. Who would I talk to at the FCC about the following: -- if I want to use equipment from an overseas-based manufacturer, where would I go to or who could I talk to at the FCC to know certification procedures, equipment allowed or not in licensed or unlicensed spectrum? -- is there a list of FCC approved manufacturers? Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
Mark: But, the FACT of the matter is by slapping together that collection of pieces to make a radio that you will deploy for commercial, revenue service as a telecommunications service provider is ILLEGAL. You make a compelling case that the pieces parts systems you're describing are far more innovative than what's currently on the market from the larger vendors... but ultimately irrelevant. That you don't THINK putting together pieces parts radios for use in the US without going through the formality of FCC certification as a system SHOULD be illegal is irrelevant. Thanks, Steve On Feb 18, 2007, at Feb 18 09:07 PM, wispa wrote: On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:52:04 -0800, Patrick Leary wrote George, ones person's innovation is something that might another person nothing but migraines. If you think you getting cutting edge innovation and state of the art technology from the uncertified manufacturers I don't know what to tell you except your technology exposure may be a bit narrow. But Patrick, it's NOT uncertified manufacturers as if we're talking about some big greedy corporation. Unless you refer to me. Or the guy down the street. Or even the woman over in the next town. Or THOUSANDS of people all over the world who find that what they want to do is either not supported by something off the shelf, or never even conceived by some engineer, or didn't make it past the marketing and budgeting departments. Download an open and free bit of Linux. Buy a surplus CPU board. Buy whatever radio module you want or need. Put it in a box and VIOLA, you already have more features most WISP Network operators wnat, than Alvarion can figure out how to put in a box. Does it have cutting edge RF qualities? Nope. Does it have Cisco quality routing? Nope. Does it have -100 to +200 degree temperature range? Nope. But, none of those are required. I don't have to the BEST rf front end and features to be successful. I just have to have to have the ones I find necessary, and the ability to get those things changed I need changed. And these people are endlessly exploring and refining mesh networks, customer controls, routing, etc, etc... and THEY NEVER STOP. So, if I want the lowest priced VL stuff to route and do NAT at the customer's end, will Alvarion build it in for me? No? Gee, that's already in the FREE stuff. Huh. Next time you whine that there's uncertified manufacturers, you're talking about the workshops, desks, garages, offices, or even spare bedrooms of THOUSANDS and thousands of people spread all around the country. And we shoulid NOT be stifled by a rigid and corporate-centric regulatory straightjacket. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Writing about BWIA again! - http://www.bwianews.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
And lately my nights are filled with the goodnight show ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-554-6620 www.roadstarinternet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit You must not have little kids like I do! They got me up nice and early at 6:30 AM today. I would not know recognize a weekend morning without Sagwa or Clifford the Big Red Dog. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit First off Patrick, we will be going to the carpet in a few minutes when I get my thoughts collected. I just woke up an hour ago and am sometimes a little sluggish in the early hours. 2nd, Dlink, Linksys and Netgear all have antennas listed on their sites for use with their units. I may be wrong, but I would ass u me that they have been certified. But do your due diligense and check first to make sure. :) George Patrick Leary wrote: If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. That would be uncertified. This is not a debatable point. This would be taking a consumer device, which is built to permit self-installation into a device for which the FCC says there must be a professional installation. These are the most confusing parts of the rules for novices, but basically if you are installing for another end user, you are assumed to be professional, which actually imposes certain liabilities and responsibilities on you. Further, this would void the certification EVEN if it still met the manufacturer specs because, for better of worse, only the OEM manufacturer can self-certify antenna changes. George, you were in the room at the FCC with me when they told us this so you know it. It is impossible to forget since Marlon pounded them about for most of the meeting but they would not budge that only a manufacturer can pick and chose additional antennas and then only antennas of equal or less power AND with similar specs (relative to emissions on sidelobs, etc.). Really all that was done in that ruling was to make the permissive change rules more simple. None of this was done for the protection of the manufacturers, but rather to make sure the FCC had one throat to choke. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses.
OT RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
:) Nothing like cuddling up with the girls while they are still in their footy PJs. Of course, the dog likes to pile in too. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit And lately my nights are filled with the goodnight show ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-554-6620 www.roadstarinternet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit You must not have little kids like I do! They got me up nice and early at 6:30 AM today. I would not know recognize a weekend morning without Sagwa or Clifford the Big Red Dog. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit First off Patrick, we will be going to the carpet in a few minutes when I get my thoughts collected. I just woke up an hour ago and am sometimes a little sluggish in the early hours. 2nd, Dlink, Linksys and Netgear all have antennas listed on their sites for use with their units. I may be wrong, but I would ass u me that they have been certified. But do your due diligense and check first to make sure. :) George Patrick Leary wrote: If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. That would be uncertified. This is not a debatable point. This would be taking a consumer device, which is built to permit self-installation into a device for which the FCC says there must be a professional installation. These are the most confusing parts of the rules for novices, but basically if you are installing for another end user, you are assumed to be professional, which actually imposes certain liabilities and responsibilities on you. Further, this would void the certification EVEN if it still met the manufacturer specs because, for better of worse, only the OEM manufacturer can self-certify antenna changes. George, you were in the room at the FCC with me when they told us this so you know it. It is impossible to forget since Marlon pounded them about for most of the meeting but they would not budge that only a manufacturer can pick and chose additional antennas and then only antennas of equal or less power AND with similar specs (relative to emissions on sidelobs, etc.). Really all that was done in that ruling was to make the permissive change rules more simple. None of this was done for the protection of the manufacturers, but rather to make sure the FCC had one throat to choke. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43).
RE: [WISPA] No, Patrick, it's not about the stickers...
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:35:37 -0800, Patrick Leary wrote ...But if you wish to become an advocate for this industry,... LOL, but for better of for worse Mark, that happened a long time ago. As for the FCC protecting Alvarion's interests. Don't make me choke with laughter. The FCC could care a less about the welfare of our company Patrick, you need to parse your reading better. I did not say that the FCC is protecting you. I said the rule structure is protecting the big guys from the small guys, and it needs to be changed. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Getting the sticker.
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:40:14 -0500, Rick Smith wrote Anyone understand the full process of getting something certified at the FCC ? No, but what I do know, is that it's several thousand dollars per test routine. Then, when you're done, the ONLY people who can sticker it, is the guy that bought the testing. Thus, if YOU do it, only YOU can assemble and sticker the stuff. Even I follow, EXACTLY what you did to get certified it isn't legal unless you're willing to stand behind the combination and sticker it as built by you. And EVERY change of any kind, if it's a new pigtail, new enclosure, new brand of antenna, new software All requires the whole process again. The FCC has, for other purposes, for both intentional and unintentional radiators, the ability to use DoC, or Declaration of Conformity, which is all about using known commodity parts, which are compliant, assembled, and is considered compliant because they recognize the parts are. I.e. I'd like to send in an RB112 with SR9, pigtail, LMR jumper, and Pac Wireless Yagi to get certified as a combination. And, every other combination I use. As I understand the rules, that would allow me to call that combination legal, as well as giving it a separate product name that I (or anyone I subcontracted) could resell it as, and then put this sticker conscious crap to silence. The rules are such that you're not really going to want to do this. You'll have to provide for the fact that people might try to change that CM9 for a WLM54AG and then it's illegal. Or they might need to use grids instead of a panel, or want a rootenna instead. Then there's the AP use, where EVERY combination has to be certified separately with each sector or omni, blah, blah. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:25:19 -0600, Sam Tetherow wrote Steve Stroh wrote: When a WISP slaps together a system, do they hook it up to a spectrum analyzer to insure that substantially all the radiated energy is contained within the desired band? No, they don't. When a WISP slaps together a certified system do they hook it up to a spectrum analyzer? Do they spot check their existing equipment with a spectrum analyzer? Faulty/failing hardware is where most of the real interference issues are going to come from. Well, that and every crappy cordless phone/baby monitor/microwave oven... You hit it. We don't check everything we put up. For that matter, the manufacturers don't check them all either. They merely test the prototype and the rest are assumed good. The certified component idea would put the onus on the various manufacturers to assure that ongoing QC would keep things compliant. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:58:02 -0800, Steve Stroh wrote Mark: But, the FACT of the matter is by slapping together that collection of pieces to make a radio that you will deploy for commercial, revenue service as a telecommunications service provider is ILLEGAL. But Steve, many of these people are NOT deploying a commercial service provider. Some of them are just hobbyists. Some of them are just networking their back yard. Some of them are building community free networks. Some of them are doing it to make money. Some of them are just doing it because they can and find it fun and intersting. Patrick called ALL of these illegal manufacturers. You make a compelling case that the pieces parts systems you're describing are far more innovative than what's currently on the market from the larger vendors... but ultimately irrelevant. How's it irrelevant? I make no claims that because it's a good idea or workable, that the law can't be followed. I'm arguing that it's a change we should try to get done. That you don't THINK putting together pieces parts radios for use in the US without going through the formality of FCC certification as a system SHOULD be illegal is irrelevant. It's relevant, as to why we should lobby for change, Steve. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Getting the sticker.
Please correct this logic where applicable: So why can't WISPA pay to get an MT Box certified with a high gain antenna, and all WISPA members can then be "assemblers": buy radio cards antennas of equal or lesser gain, put them together and print out a sheet of avery "WISPA Certified" stickers? This would be a very EMPOWERING thing, and isn't that intent of WISPA? wispa wrote: On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:40:14 -0500, Rick Smith wrote Anyone understand the full process of getting something certified at the FCC ? No, but what I do know, is that it's several thousand dollars per test routine. Then, when you're done, the ONLY people who can sticker it, is the guy that bought the testing. Thus, if YOU do it, only YOU can assemble and sticker the stuff. Even I follow, EXACTLY what you did to get certified it isn't "legal" unless you're willing to stand behind the combination and sticker it as built by you. And EVERY change of any kind, if it's a new pigtail, new enclosure, new brand of antenna, new software All requires the whole process again. The FCC has, for other purposes, for both intentional and unintentional radiators, the ability to use DoC, or Declaration of Conformity, which is all about using known commodity parts, which are compliant, assembled, and is considered compliant because they recognize the parts are. I.e. I'd like to send in an RB112 with SR9, pigtail, LMR jumper, and Pac Wireless Yagi to get certified as a combination. And, every other combination I use. As I understand the rules, that would allow me to call that combination legal, as well as giving it a separate "product name" that I (or anyone I subcontracted) could resell it as, and then put this "sticker conscious" crap to silence. The rules are such that you're not really going to want to do this. You'll have to provide for the fact that people might try to change that CM9 for a WLM54AG and then it's illegal. Or they might need to use grids instead of a panel, or want a rootenna instead. Then there's the AP use, where EVERY combination has to be certified separately with each sector or omni, blah, blah. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Time off from WISPA
John, Sorry for your families loss, Take the time off, you have dedicated so much to WISPA and our needs. See you in March. Ron Wallace -Original Message- From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:20 AM To: 'WISPA General List', [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] Time off from WISPA Guys I am taking a vacation from WISPA for a while. I am scheduled to speak in D.C. before New America's caucus at the Senate Office Building before Commerce Committee on this Thursday to lobby for unlicensed access to TV channel spectrum. My Mother-in-law just died unexpectedly about 3 hours ago. I am moving my entire office and NOC over the next 3 days (so far only moved the core router and a couple of extraneous switches, bandwidth appliance, etc.) We still have a mountain of work to complete to have the office moved and completely online on by Feb. 26th which will be the first day at our new office location (and happens to be my birthday). I am now in the process of planning a family funeral and expecting family and such in while I am doing all the rest. I will not be sending anything to this group except possibly requests for support to TV channel space comments and such until Feb 27. I will not be handling any WISPA related business until that time. If anyone has issues that need resolved regarding WISPA billing then email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For email system administration technical support please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For web site issues email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For list issues please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To direct issues to the board you can email a form with your request via the link at http://www.wispa.org. I think I may extend this vacation from WISPA to be as long as March 1. I will not be logging into this email account until then and prefer to be left alone until after that time. I will be unsubscribing from the WISPA lists until my return. I will trust all of you to bring me up to speed on any issues requiring my direct involvement once I return to these lists in March. Kindest regards, John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
No little kids here. Mine are all grown. One is the admin for OregonFAST.net and the other 2 are pc techs here as well. 2 of them are actually owners of this business. My wife mentioned having another but at 49, I'm thinking thats not a good thing. George Patrick Leary wrote: You must not have little kids like I do! They got me up nice and early at 6:30 AM today. I would not know recognize a weekend morning without Sagwa or Clifford the Big Red Dog. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit First off Patrick, we will be going to the carpet in a few minutes when I get my thoughts collected. I just woke up an hour ago and am sometimes a little sluggish in the early hours. 2nd, Dlink, Linksys and Netgear all have antennas listed on their sites for use with their units. I may be wrong, but I would ass u me that they have been certified. But do your due diligense and check first to make sure. :) George Patrick Leary wrote: If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. That would be uncertified. This is not a debatable point. This would be taking a consumer device, which is built to permit self-installation into a device for which the FCC says there must be a professional installation. These are the most confusing parts of the rules for novices, but basically if you are installing for another end user, you are assumed to be professional, which actually imposes certain liabilities and responsibilities on you. Further, this would void the certification EVEN if it still met the manufacturer specs because, for better of worse, only the OEM manufacturer can self-certify antenna changes. George, you were in the room at the FCC with me when they told us this so you know it. It is impossible to forget since Marlon pounded them about for most of the meeting but they would not budge that only a manufacturer can pick and chose additional antennas and then only antennas of equal or less power AND with similar specs (relative to emissions on sidelobs, etc.). Really all that was done in that ruling was to make the permissive change rules more simple. None of this was done for the protection of the manufacturers, but rather to make sure the FCC had one throat to choke. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
Hi George, 49 here also, when do you turn 50? -Dee Alaska Wireless Systems 1(907)240-2183 Cell 1(907)349-2226 Fax 1(907)349-4308 Office www.akwireless.net - Original Message - From: George Rogato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:06:43 -0900 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit No little kids here. Mine are all grown. One is the admin for OregonFAST.net and the other 2 are pc techs here as well. 2 of them are actually owners of this business. My wife mentioned having another but at 49, I'm thinking thats not a good thing. George Patrick Leary wrote: You must not have little kids like I do! They got me up nice and early at 6:30 AM today. I would not know recognize a weekend morning without Sagwa or Clifford the Big Red Dog. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit First off Patrick, we will be going to the carpet in a few minutes when I get my thoughts collected. I just woke up an hour ago and am sometimes a little sluggish in the early hours. 2nd, Dlink, Linksys and Netgear all have antennas listed on their sites for use with their units. I may be wrong, but I would ass u me that they have been certified. But do your due diligense and check first to make sure. :) George Patrick Leary wrote: If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. That would be uncertified. This is not a debatable point. This would be taking a consumer device, which is built to permit self-installation into a device for which the FCC says there must be a professional installation. These are the most confusing parts of the rules for novices, but basically if you are installing for another end user, you are assumed to be professional, which actually imposes certain liabilities and responsibilities on you. Further, this would void the certification EVEN if it still met the manufacturer specs because, for better of worse, only the OEM manufacturer can self-certify antenna changes. George, you were in the room at the FCC with me when they told us this so you know it. It is impossible to forget since Marlon pounded them about for most of the meeting but they would not budge that only a manufacturer can pick and chose additional antennas and then only antennas of equal or less power AND with similar specs (relative to emissions on sidelobs, etc.). Really all that was done in that ruling was to make the permissive change rules more simple. None of this was done for the protection of the manufacturers, but rather to make sure the FCC had one throat to choke. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
in 12 more months :) W.D.McKinney wrote: Hi George, 49 here also, when do you turn 50? -Dee Alaska Wireless Systems 1(907)240-2183 Cell 1(907)349-2226 Fax 1(907)349-4308 Office www.akwireless.net - Original Message - From: George Rogato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:06:43 -0900 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit No little kids here. Mine are all grown. One is the admin for OregonFAST.net and the other 2 are pc techs here as well. 2 of them are actually owners of this business. My wife mentioned having another but at 49, I'm thinking thats not a good thing. George Patrick Leary wrote: You must not have little kids like I do! They got me up nice and early at 6:30 AM today. I would not know recognize a weekend morning without Sagwa or Clifford the Big Red Dog. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit First off Patrick, we will be going to the carpet in a few minutes when I get my thoughts collected. I just woke up an hour ago and am sometimes a little sluggish in the early hours. 2nd, Dlink, Linksys and Netgear all have antennas listed on their sites for use with their units. I may be wrong, but I would ass u me that they have been certified. But do your due diligense and check first to make sure. :) George Patrick Leary wrote: If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. That would be uncertified. This is not a debatable point. This would be taking a consumer device, which is built to permit self-installation into a device for which the FCC says there must be a professional installation. These are the most confusing parts of the rules for novices, but basically if you are installing for another end user, you are assumed to be professional, which actually imposes certain liabilities and responsibilities on you. Further, this would void the certification EVEN if it still met the manufacturer specs because, for better of worse, only the OEM manufacturer can self-certify antenna changes. George, you were in the room at the FCC with me when they told us this so you know it. It is impossible to forget since Marlon pounded them about for most of the meeting but they would not budge that only a manufacturer can pick and chose additional antennas and then only antennas of equal or less power AND with similar specs (relative to emissions on sidelobs, etc.). Really all that was done in that ruling was to make the permissive change rules more simple. None of this was done for the protection of the manufacturers, but rather to make sure the FCC had one throat to choke. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: OT RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit
Yeah, I'm just on the tail end of that time with my kids...they still like to be tucked though. It's great being a Daddy! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: OT RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit :) Nothing like cuddling up with the girls while they are still in their footy PJs. Of course, the dog likes to pile in too. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit And lately my nights are filled with the goodnight show ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-554-6620 www.roadstarinternet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit You must not have little kids like I do! They got me up nice and early at 6:30 AM today. I would not know recognize a weekend morning without Sagwa or Clifford the Big Red Dog. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit First off Patrick, we will be going to the carpet in a few minutes when I get my thoughts collected. I just woke up an hour ago and am sometimes a little sluggish in the early hours. 2nd, Dlink, Linksys and Netgear all have antennas listed on their sites for use with their units. I may be wrong, but I would ass u me that they have been certified. But do your due diligense and check first to make sure. :) George Patrick Leary wrote: If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. That would be uncertified. This is not a debatable point. This would be taking a consumer device, which is built to permit self-installation into a device for which the FCC says there must be a professional installation. These are the most confusing parts of the rules for novices, but basically if you are installing for another end user, you are assumed to be professional, which actually imposes certain liabilities and responsibilities on you. Further, this would void the certification EVEN if it still met the manufacturer specs because, for better of worse, only the OEM manufacturer can self-certify antenna changes. George, you were in the room at the FCC with me when they told us this so you know it. It is impossible to forget since Marlon pounded them about for most of the meeting but they would not budge that only a manufacturer can pick and chose additional antennas and then only antennas of equal or less power AND with similar specs (relative to emissions on sidelobs, etc.). Really all that was done in that ruling was to make the permissive change rules more simple. None of this was done for the protection of the manufacturers, but rather to make sure the FCC had one throat to choke. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Brief report from FCC visit Sam Tetherow wrote: So are you saying that a PCMCIA card with software and internal antenna is not certified? No one has yet to answer this question for me. Is it legal for Best Buy to sell DLink/Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/... pcmcia cards for laptops? What about USB dongles? If they are legal how is they can certify a card and drivers, but we can't certify a minipci with software? If your talking boxed units like netgear, dlink, and linksys sell, Of course they are certified. Is the certification void if it was torn apart and had a bigger antenna and amplifier added, probably not, unless it is to their certified specs. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190).
[WISPA] Fw: [Ham-80211] Re: 2.4 GHz remote broadcast
Oh brother! marlon - Original Message - Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] Re: 2.4 GHz remote broadcast Steve wrote: Are all forms of Ham communications on 5.2 5.4 limited to 1W eirp or only high-speed data/video?Short answer: Max achievable EIRP is 946.4 Kilo-watts for Part 97, or obviously the minimum necessary to carry out the communications, just like any other thing in ham radio.Nothing overlaps at 5.2 GHz... more so 5.6 5.7 see these links:http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/pwr.html http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/allocations.html Awesome resource, thanks! These were VERY amusing to read, especially the EIRP! 900 MHz (non spread spectrum i.e 802.11g) 1500 watts (per 97.313) 14 dBd yagi 37.8 Kilo-watts What sort of surplus amplifier hardware is available for 900MHz and at what sort of prices, please? I hate to think of the price tag on a 1.5KW 900MHz amp! 2.4 GHz (non spread spectrum i.e. 802.11g) 1500 watts (per 97.313) 24 dBi partial parabolic 376.8 Kilo-watts Generating 1.5KW on 2.4GHz is not within the reach of the average Ham, even 150W may be tough, though that still equals 37.7KW EIRP! :-) The 3.3GHz transverter http://www.ubnt.com/sr3_faq.php4 is interesting for many reasons: 1. It interfaces with the Atheros Linux MadWiFi driver. 2. It takes a consumer off-the-shelf 2.4 GHz 802.11 hardware and puts it on the 3.3GHz Ham band. 3. 100W x 25 dBi dish = 31.6 Kilo-watts EIRP!! Questions: 1. What is this device likely to cost? 2. Are amplifiers available surplus and what are they likely to cost? 3. Same question re. high gain 3.3GHz antennas and the associated cables/waveguides? 4. Distance and signal toleration in bad weather? It is so much fun to learn new things in Ham radio! -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] For those in business just about a year...
Couple questions for you: 1) How did you get funding ? 2) How many customers are you up to so far ? 3) How many installations per month / week / day ? 4) How did they find you ? Advertising methods... I'm in the middle of rebuilding my company from the disaster it's been in because of a deadbeat partner, and these questions (and more) came up at a meeting of the minds tonight. I figured no better place to get the answer than existing WISPs. Offlist, if need be. This will be private for me only, just for information. thanks R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
