Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
d news. Under current FCC rules, if a wireless mike pops up near any of your base stations or customer locations, you have to switch channels so you don't interfer with them. To effectively switch channels, you need a multiband antenna which is TV-antenna sized. If there are no other available channels then you will need to go off the air. 5. You can see how variable and unreliable the channel-switching situation is. It's completely un-workable. Not only will you need to use large antennas to get broadband VHF-UHF capabilities but the propagation characteristics will be different too so what works on one channel might not work on another channel. This example really shows how "the devil is in the details". Sure the FCC allows us to use the TV White Spaces but with rules that practically make TVWS very impractical or un-useable. The FCC just assumed that 1) channels would be available and 2) channel-switching would work. These were bad assumptions for them to make. 6. WISPA has been petitioning the FCC for the last 9 months to get them to adjust their rules to correct the microphone-sensing problem and a few other problems like antenna height restrictions. WISPA's FCC filing today again addressed these needed TVWS rules changes. We will keep hammering away at the FCC until they adjust their rules and make TVWS useable. This is kind of a long answer to the antenna-size question but hopefully it has helped illustrate the situation and what WISPA is doing (for both Members and non-members) to make the otherwise very-valuable TVWS spectrum both available and useable. Respectfully, Jack Unger Chair - WISPA FCC Committee Mike wrote: Thanks Jack. I am looking forward to your insight. Mike Hammett was already so kind by referring to a wiki in a previous post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio) Mike At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's "Spectrum for Broadband" FCC filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context (full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply "dwell" on it. jack Mike wrote: Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized" antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a "do all" antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized" antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Mike" mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: "WISPA General List" mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
and the free-space path loss will be higher but you can pick UHF to keep antenna size down if you want (and if available). 4. Now for the bad news. Under current FCC rules, if a wireless mike pops up near any of your base stations or customer locations, you have to switch channels so you don't interfer with them. To effectively switch channels, you need a multiband antenna which is TV-antenna sized. If there are no other available channels then you will need to go off the air. 5. You can see how variable and unreliable the channel-switching situation is. It's completely un-workable. Not only will you need to use large antennas to get broadband VHF-UHF capabilities but the propagation characteristics will be different too so what works on one channel might not work on another channel. This example really shows how the devil is in the details. Sure the FCC allows us to use the TV White Spaces but with rules that practically make TVWS very impractical or un-useable. The FCC just assumed that 1) channels would be available and 2) channel-switching would work. These were bad assumptions for them to make. 6. WISPA has been petitioning the FCC for the last 9 months to get them to adjust their rules to correct the microphone-sensing problem and a few other problems like antenna height restrictions. WISPA's FCC filing today again addressed these needed TVWS rules changes. We will keep hammering away at the FCC until they adjust their rules and make TVWS useable. This is kind of a long answer to the antenna-size question but hopefully it has helped illustrate the situation and what WISPA is doing (for both Members and non-members) to make the otherwise very-valuable TVWS spectrum both available and useable. Respectfully, Jack Unger Chair - WISPA FCC Committee Mike wrote: Thanks Jack. I am looking forward to your insight. Mike Hammett was already so kind by referring to a wiki in a previous post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio) Mike At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context (full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply dwell on it. jack Mike wrote: Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
se Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Mike" mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: "WISPA General List" mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the "white space" is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: "Gino Villarini" mailto:g...@aeronetpr.comg...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.comg...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.orgwireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
to correct the microphone-sensing problem and a few other problems like antenna height restrictions. WISPA's FCC filing today again addressed these needed TVWS rules changes. We will keep hammering away at the FCC until they adjust their rules and make TVWS useable. This is kind of a long answer to the antenna-size question but hopefully it has helped illustrate the situation and what WISPA is doing (for both Members and non-members) to make the otherwise very-valuable TVWS spectrum both available and useable. Respectfully, Jack Unger Chair - WISPA FCC Committee Mike wrote: Thanks Jack. I am looking forward to your insight. Mike Hammett was already so kind by referring to a wiki in a previous post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio) Mike At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context (full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply dwell on it. jack Mike wrote: Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
U, only partially. The old TV antennas were combo antennas that usually had a log periodic antenna for VHF and some sort of arrangement for UHF, usually a corner reflector, bow tie or something. Because they were designed to be so wide band, they were huge. Any 700 MHz antenna will be MUCH smaller. TV channel 2 is 54 MHz, where a half wave dipole (or log periodic element) is 8.6 feet long. That would be the longest element on a TV antenna and the reason they were so big. The white space is also called the 700 MHz band. A 700 MHz dipole is 8 inches long, and a 800 MHz dipole is 7 inches long. A 6 element log periodic for this range would be a little over a foot long. Think along the lines of a 900 MHz antenna NOT a VHF TV antenna. Mike At 12:20 AM 10/23/2009, you wrote: A VERY good guide to the whitespaces antenna sizes... are the millions of TV antennas we've been using for 50+ years. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:52 PM To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
The rules are still up in the air, but the last set I heard had us using the entire TV band, save a few reserved channels. The 700 MHz band was the highest set of channels (parts of 698 - 806) that the FCC auctioned off before anything happened with TVWS. http://wireless.fcc.gov/auctions/data/bandplans/700MHzBandPlan.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 4:04 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! U, only partially. The old TV antennas were combo antennas that usually had a log periodic antenna for VHF and some sort of arrangement for UHF, usually a corner reflector, bow tie or something. Because they were designed to be so wide band, they were huge. Any 700 MHz antenna will be MUCH smaller. TV channel 2 is 54 MHz, where a half wave dipole (or log periodic element) is 8.6 feet long. That would be the longest element on a TV antenna and the reason they were so big. The white space is also called the 700 MHz band. A 700 MHz dipole is 8 inches long, and a 800 MHz dipole is 7 inches long. A 6 element log periodic for this range would be a little over a foot long. Think along the lines of a 900 MHz antenna NOT a VHF TV antenna. Mike At 12:20 AM 10/23/2009, you wrote: A VERY good guide to the whitespaces antenna sizes... are the millions of TV antennas we've been using for 50+ years. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:52 PM To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
RE the 30 meter antennas possibly he is referring to the height limits on antennas (and not the size)? The RO document said client antennas had to be 10m AGL, and AP antennas had to be less than 30m. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-260A1.pdf (page 65) -John On Oct 22, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Yes John, thanks. That was what I was referring to. I could not remember the exact height for each, but I could recall one was around 30 meters. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: John Valenti vale...@lir.msu.edu Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:35:56 -0400 RE the 30 meter antennas possibly he is referring to the height limits on antennas (and not the size)? The RO document said client antennas had to be 10m AGL, and AP antennas had to be less than 30m. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-260A1.pdf (page 65) -John On Oct 22, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
I need to proof read my posts a little better, lol. That would be one HUGE antenna. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: John Valenti vale...@lir.msu.edu Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:35:56 -0400 RE the 30 meter antennas possibly he is referring to the height limits on antennas (and not the size)? The RO document said client antennas had to be 10m AGL, and AP antennas had to be less than 30m. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-260A1.pdf (page 65) -John On Oct 22, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized" antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Mike" m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the "white space" is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: "Gino Villarini" g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] O
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.comg...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Not as many may be opposed as you'd think. After all, up until DBS, a significant number of people had those antennas on their house for TV. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: ccrum cc...@dot11net.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 2:08 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Mike, you are certainly correct about the propagation characteristics. This is both good and bad depending on how people plan to deploy. I think that a lot of people are thinking that this space will let you have a self installed, desktop unit because of the NLOS and indoor penetration. My point is that units like these would have trouble on the uplink because they would have low power and possibly negative gain. A yagi, while a good technical solution is visibly unattractive and I know that many of my customers would not allow me to install one. A panel with similar gain characteristics to a yagi will be large (compared to what people are used to) at these frequencies, again a barrier to overcome to convince some customers. I'm not arguing either...30m is way out there, but 24x24 panel is not, and would probably still be pretty low gain, depending on if it is a patch, array of dipoles, or whatever. That size antenna on the roof will be a turn off to a lot of customers. Also, on the towers, to get decent gain (assuming that the power limitations will be very low) on a linearly polarized, broad beam antenna, the antenna will be larger than anything people have seen to date. Yagi's and lp's won't work here. Again a lot will depend on how the networks are designed and deployed, but my feeling is that because of the (assumed) power constraints that will most likely be placed on the band, and the size limitations that will be a necessity on the towers, a given network may well end up with more towers, not fewer as one would assume because of the better propagation characteristics. Lower frequency is not the end all panacea that many are hoping for. Regards, Cameron Mike wrote: Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Due to the number of channels and the likelihood of channel bonding, there's not going to be an antenna that covers from 692 - 698 MHz, then another that covers 686 - 692 MHz. it also depends on the area. Maybe the broadcasters are all sitting on channels 35 - 50, forcing you to use the lower UHF and VHF channels. It is possible (hopefully) that we'll have gear that does 3, 4, 5 channels bonded together. http://www.winegarddirect.com/cview.asp?d=winegard-television-(tv)-antennasc=UHF%20Only%20Antennas That page will have antenna sizes and gains for TV UHF and VHF antenna. A 22x34 only has a 9 - 11.5 dB gain. A 32x27x93 only has 12 - 16 dB gain. Those are only UHF. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 2:06 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Mike, I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's "Spectrum for Broadband" FCC filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context (full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply "dwell" on it. jack Mike wrote: Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized" antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a "do all" antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized" antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Mike" mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: "WISPA General List" mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
I love the dialog. The 34 antenna is a LPDA and wide band. There is going to have to be segmentation in the bands. Very few antenna systems have the wide band characteristics of a log periodic. Maybe that WILL be the normal antenna for the new technology, but it is quite easy to make other types of gain antennas with a smaller footprint. Kind of like we have different versions of 5 GHz antennas, there will no doubt be specific choices for specific portions of the spectrum. Thanks guys for sharing the height thing. Such restrictions on the production plan won't work. If the goal is to allow such use in an urban setting, the modulation technique would have to be able to survive severe multipath. I'll have to think about the AP on the ground and the client on the roof. Does that make sense? It would certainly keep interference to the AP down. Mike At 02:22 PM 10/23/2009, Mike Hammett wrote: Due to the number of channels and the likelihood of channel bonding, there's not going to be an antenna that covers from 692 - 698 MHz, then another that covers 686 - 692 MHz. it also depends on the area. Maybe the broadcasters are all sitting on channels 35 - 50, forcing you to use the lower UHF and VHF channels. It is possible (hopefully) that we'll have gear that does 3, 4, 5 channels bonded together. http://www.winegarddirect.com/cview.asp?d=winegard-television-(tv)-antennasc=UHF%20Only%20Antennas That page will have antenna sizes and gains for TV UHF and VHF antenna. A 22x34 only has a 9 - 11.5 dB gain. A 32x27x93 only has 12 - 16 dB gain. Those are only UHF. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 2:06 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Thanks Jack. I am looking forward to your insight. Mike Hammett was already so kind by referring to a wiki in a previous post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio) Mike At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context (full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply dwell on it. jack Mike wrote: Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
ing to a wiki in a previous post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio) Mike At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's "Spectrum for Broadband" FCC filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context (full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply "dwell" on it. jack Mike wrote: Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized" antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a "do all" antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized" antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Mike" mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: "WISPA General List" mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a des
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Mike, First, take everything I saw about this with a grain of salt, because I'm no expert. From my reading of the RO, there are two types of whitespace device. There is a low power version, that I think is intended to be like a mini-PCI card, installed in a laptop. There are no height restrictions on that. Probably of more interest to us are the higher power devices (up to 4 watts, I think). Those are limited to antenna heights between 10 and 30 meters. I don't think the AP is special, it also has to be minimum 10m high. So it couldn't be on the ground. Personally, I wonder about this 10m minimum. Since all the devices are networked, I would argue that maybe 50% of an APs clients could be lower. One of the higher radios could pick up a new tv signal and force the whole AP to move channels. That would avoid the silly looking large antenna 15' above a single story ranch house roof. Perhaps if this stuff takes off, we could argue for that in the future. (or maybe I'm all wrong, since I'm more a software guy) -John On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:01 PM, Mike wrote: Thanks guys for sharing the height thing. Such restrictions on the production plan won't work. If the goal is to allow such use in an urban setting, the modulation technique would have to be able to survive severe multipath. I'll have to think about the AP on the ground and the client on the roof. Does that make sense? It would certainly keep interference to the AP down. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
I don't know why Microsoft would even want to include Dell in any of that, they have the muscle to wipe everyone but Google out of the way. But if Microsoft is involved, poor service and failed applications will soon follow. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:23 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Holy cow! Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Yes but out here in BFE, they can get dialup on very bad phone lines, Wild Blue or cell card. Offering 512k in a market such as mine will have them beating down your doors. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
6 MHz is correct. Self-install is unlikely. Mobile is highly questionable. Gino Villarini wrote: IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: "Jack Unger" jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Spectrum is spectrum. 6 MHz of space at 300 MHz is just as fast as 6 MHz at 5 GHz or 600 GHz. That said, each TV channel is 6 MHz and the radio must support bonding (in my opinion) to be useful. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:58 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
What do you mean? Whitespace is like a 6 mhz channel. Put QAM64 on that, and you are pushing like 10 mbps per sector. Whitespace will give you everthing 900Mhz did, except less interference (In hopes), more NLOS coverage, and many cases MANY more channels. Sure whitespace wont be living in the 20mbps to the home world, but still, the benefit is huge. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
are there not many spaces? I think this first test is just one channel Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:22 AM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: What do you mean? Whitespace is like a 6 mhz channel. Put QAM64 on that, and you are pushing like 10 mbps per sector. Whitespace will give you everthing 900Mhz did, except less interference (In hopes), more NLOS coverage, and many cases MANY more channels. Sure whitespace wont be living in the 20mbps to the home world, but still, the benefit is huge. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
This is primarily going to be useful for rural areas. In large cities there will be few or NO channels available. The more rural you are, the more unused TV channels will be available. Jerry Richardson wrote: are there not many spaces? I think this first test is just one channel Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:22 AM, "Tom DeReggi" wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: What do you mean? Whitespace is like a 6 mhz channel. Put QAM64 on that, and you are pushing like 10 mbps per sector. Whitespace will give you everthing 900Mhz did, except less interference (In hopes), more NLOS coverage, and many cases MANY more channels. Sure whitespace wont be living in the 20mbps to the home world, but still, the benefit is huge. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Scott Carullo" sc...@brevardwireless.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: "Jack Unger" jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- --
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
A VERY good guide to the whitespaces antenna sizes... are the millions of TV antennas we've been using for 50+ years. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:52 PM To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
