Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
No problem. We really need this spectrum, as was the reason for my ramblings on the cybertelecom list about Rhetoric on Comcast vs. ATT. All they were talking about was the duoply and how the FCC is going to go before Congress so they have the authority to treat all ISP's as telcos. I was trying to make the point that (1) the FCC needs to realize there are other ISP's out there besides cable companies and telcos, and (2) To not auction off the whitespace spectrum because it will just end up in the hands of the duoply. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:30:49 -0400 Scottie that is a great link. Thankyou Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This may have already been answered or may not be exactly what you are looking for, but: http://showmywhitespace.com/ shows what is available. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:51:26 -0400 I probably wont get to it today, but I'll find the google earth overlay that I had that showed it, and post it to the list shortly. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Tom, Could you give us a hint how we would find this info? Randy It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivnerj...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnesst...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 239.770.6203 end_of_the_skype_highlighting m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Scottie that is a great link. Thankyou Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This may have already been answered or may not be exactly what you are looking for, but: http://showmywhitespace.com/ shows what is available. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:51:26 -0400 I probably wont get to it today, but I'll find the google earth overlay that I had that showed it, and post it to the list shortly. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Tom, Could you give us a hint how we would find this info? Randy It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivnerj...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnesst...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 239.770.6203 end_of_the_skype_highlighting m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Is anyone using these freqs? -RickG On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote: This may have already been answered or may not be exactly what you are looking for, but: http://showmywhitespace.com/ shows what is available. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:51:26 -0400 I probably wont get to it today, but I'll find the google earth overlay that I had that showed it, and post it to the list shortly. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Tom, Could you give us a hint how we would find this info? Randy It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivnerj...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnesst...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 239.770.6203 end_of_the_skype_highlighting m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
The area you described below should be fit for this TV whitespace. However in my area there are better options since we have far fewer trees. A combination of 3.65ghz, 2.4ghz, and 900mhz will get me to every customer in my area. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Jenkins Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC You might have a lot of pigs, but I am guessing you haven't dealt with forest. I have areas where it takes a 200ft tower to mostly beat the foliage. And there are 150ft pine trees every 10-15ft everywhere. Customers have anywhere from 20 to 100 acre properties. Most customers cannot see their neighbors house. Also you can travel 1 mile in some areas and the elevation can change over 1000ft. The next major ridgeline or mountain is about every 4 miles. 900mhz with clean spectrum does not work in most of these areas at less than 1 mile. Whitespace will make it so a lot of houses in the rural areas around here (Northern California) can get Internet faster than 28.8bps dialup. Mike Hammett wrote: On the contrary, with proper equipment availability, the band will be quite a benefit, but I suggest that we not underestimate the negatives and overestimate the positives. I would call myself rural, but not desolate. ;-) There's 2400 pigs on this property, no less than 100k pigs within a 1.5 mile radius, approximately 1M pigs in the county. Providing adequate current\next generation speeds to a 100 home subdivision or town is just as much of a pain due to foliage for me as it is for anyone else. I'd much rather point a TV sector from an existing tower or two than construct an 80' tower to overcome foliage before I can use equipment in legacy bands. This method reduce the points of failure and permits more sophisticated support systems (power backup, backhaul, security, etc.) than building little towers everywhere I want to serve a few houses. It also allows me to reach into new markets before I can justify the cost of setting up a full tower using legacy bands. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Mike, I would suggest that you not use this band if it does not meet your needs. I tend to not use 5.8 in my area as 5.8 does not meet my needs. Your needs appear to be different from mine. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: So we're regressing to a bunch of high powered omnis? Maybe I don't understand how much of a God-send sync is, but if it's that great, why is the default Canopy setup 6x 60* sectors instead of a single omni? (I'm not saying sync is bad, I wish everything had sync). I don't really give a hoot about the higher power. Regular power levels will give me the penetration I need. I'll run out of mbit/s long before I run out of dB. I am aware that more rural areas need the higher power. As many people are looking to penetrate the foliage domain of a populated town or subdivision as there are looking to traverse a sparse forest. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:02 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC At 20watts, you probably won't need a 15db antenna. :) With lightly licensed, you probably won't need a sector. (less interference). With GPS timing (ala moto/cell gear) you will have less self-interference. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
This may have already been answered or may not be exactly what you are looking for, but: http://showmywhitespace.com/ shows what is available. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:51:26 -0400 I probably wont get to it today, but I'll find the google earth overlay that I had that showed it, and post it to the list shortly. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Tom, Could you give us a hint how we would find this info? Randy It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivnerj...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnesst...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 239.770.6203 end_of_the_skype_highlighting m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
I probably wont get to it today, but I'll find the google earth overlay that I had that showed it, and post it to the list shortly. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Tom, Could you give us a hint how we would find this info? Randy It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivnerj...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnesst...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
That may well be the case, but that doesn't mean anything I said was wrong. Whitespaces still won't go through the mountains. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Matt Jenkins m...@smarterbroadband.net Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 2:52 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC You might have a lot of pigs, but I am guessing you haven't dealt with forest. I have areas where it takes a 200ft tower to mostly beat the foliage. And there are 150ft pine trees every 10-15ft everywhere. Customers have anywhere from 20 to 100 acre properties. Most customers cannot see their neighbors house. Also you can travel 1 mile in some areas and the elevation can change over 1000ft. The next major ridgeline or mountain is about every 4 miles. 900mhz with clean spectrum does not work in most of these areas at less than 1 mile. Whitespace will make it so a lot of houses in the rural areas around here (Northern California) can get Internet faster than 28.8bps dialup. Mike Hammett wrote: On the contrary, with proper equipment availability, the band will be quite a benefit, but I suggest that we not underestimate the negatives and overestimate the positives. I would call myself rural, but not desolate. ;-) There's 2400 pigs on this property, no less than 100k pigs within a 1.5 mile radius, approximately 1M pigs in the county. Providing adequate current\next generation speeds to a 100 home subdivision or town is just as much of a pain due to foliage for me as it is for anyone else. I'd much rather point a TV sector from an existing tower or two than construct an 80' tower to overcome foliage before I can use equipment in legacy bands. This method reduce the points of failure and permits more sophisticated support systems (power backup, backhaul, security, etc.) than building little towers everywhere I want to serve a few houses. It also allows me to reach into new markets before I can justify the cost of setting up a full tower using legacy bands. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Mike, I would suggest that you not use this band if it does not meet your needs. I tend to not use 5.8 in my area as 5.8 does not meet my needs. Your needs appear to be different from mine. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: So we're regressing to a bunch of high powered omnis? Maybe I don't understand how much of a God-send sync is, but if it's that great, why is the default Canopy setup 6x 60* sectors instead of a single omni? (I'm not saying sync is bad, I wish everything had sync). I don't really give a hoot about the higher power. Regular power levels will give me the penetration I need. I'll run out of mbit/s long before I run out of dB. I am aware that more rural areas need the higher power. As many people are looking to penetrate the foliage domain of a populated town or subdivision as there are looking to traverse a sparse forest. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:02 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC At 20watts, you probably won't need a 15db antenna. :) With lightly licensed, you probably won't need a sector. (less interference). With GPS timing (ala moto/cell gear) you will have less self-interference. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
The methodology the FCC uses to measure spectrum (channel) width is such that a 7 mhz channel actually means one of our 10 mhz channels for OFDM. Understand that there's simple less energy radiated at the edges of the channel, due to the way modulation works, and so they measure the channel width as being some many mhz from the center - X number of DB down. Thus, we can use 802.11a @ 5,10, or 20 mhz channel, and it fits their requirements for 3.5, 7, and 14 mhz channel widths. So, to not be industry contrary, we should ask for 3.5, 7, 14, and 28 mhz channels. ++ Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy 541-969-8200 509-386-4589 ++ -- From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC 6MHz is a weird channel size for our industry traditionally but in 5MHz ~25Mbps aggregate would be comfortable. -Hal On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:39 -0700, Ryan Spott wrote: Hey Steve, I use the cable-cos as an example. They get 30Mbit/sec for 6Mhz. (at least using docsis) ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
L-R Ryan, John, Alex, Jack and Stephen. ryan On Apr 5, 2010, at 5:41 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
I second everybody else's enthusiasm and appreciation for the committee's efforts here. This is one of the primary reasons we are a WISPA member and I recommend annual we continue contributing to this group. Thanks again guys! Dylan -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
The bandwidth of the radio frequency channel is the major factor that determines the performance capabilities for data transmission and reception and not the actual radio frequency of the radio channel. There is no difference in the amount of data, or the data speeds that can be transmitted in the same amount of radio frequency bandwidth, regardless of the radio frequency band. Transmitting more data at higher data rates requires greater radio frequency bandwidth. Realistically, some innovative techniques would need to be used. Three 1 MHz segments, even in similar, if not contiguous spectrum would be infinitely usable. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Even assuming we would only have access to the lower VHF portion of the bands, a 6.3 dBi antenna is a simple, non-intrusive radiator. Commercial antennas are available now for 6 meters to give you an idea of sizes and get you thinking about what the maximum effort would be. The propagation on these bands could be the enemy as well as the black magic, but let me at 'em; we can make it work. Again, innovation will be key to usage. Here is a loop antenna made for 50 MHz. Properly mounted, they are barely visible from the street. I installed a stacked pair of these in a deed restricted area and nobody knew they were there. http://www.m2inc.com/index2.html Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Hey Steve, I use the cable-cos as an example. They get 30Mbit/sec for 6Mhz. (at least using docsis) ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
A Couple questions. First, I would agree, any Whitespace spectrum is good spectrum for us, and better than none. But, why does the FCC keep hypothetically asking us what about VHF channels 1-x the lower part of the band? I think when we met with Blair, the lower portion of VHF also came up briefly. 1. Are they asking us, because they plan to give the rest to someone else :-( 2. Are they asking because others are requesting the higher portions of the band, that are more advantageous?And wondering whether we consider the lower portions more or less advantageous for our use? 3. Is there something wrong or more encombersome with Bands 1-X (7?), that we dont know about or do know about? 4. Is VHF ch 1-X (7?) more advantageous, becaue its a band more widely available in more places in the US? (For example, I think some free channels exist in Band 1-7 for the DC area, but I'd need to go back and check to verify). 5. How will our Antenna size requirements vary for this portion of the band? I guess my point is What do we as WISPs really think about the VHF ch 1-X (7?) compared to the other portions of the Whitespace band? If the FCC is hypothetically putting the lower bands out there, what do we want to do about it? Should we make an official statement asking for that part of the band, to feed the FCC thoughts for allocation that potentially are already being considered, to increase the chances of prompt release? Or should we continue pushing for the complete band? Also After reading the report, it was clear that the FCC trip was highly advantageous and a lot was accomplished. I also recognize that the FCC will not disclose their full intent on their intent record. But have we learned anything more than we knew from our meeting with Blair, as far as how Whitespace will progress? Did we get any updates on the Broadcaster's database development for Whitespace? Is this still in motion towards progress? Or has anything gotten stalled relating to the database work, because of the possible Whitespace re-organization and re-consideration that potentially could still be occuring? I think we need to make sure the FCC recognizes a couple things and we need to be cautious what we do about it Any Whitespace given to unlicensed will not likely ever be used for Cellular phone cell sites, obviously. They'd want fully licenced for that. But that does not mean that large carriers wont use unlicensed Whitespace for special applications, expecially public safety. UNlicensed has the unique abilty to go anywhere with little advanced planning, and carriers can use that advantage to their benefit, just the same as WISPs can. And they do. The wide use of Proxim Lynx radios (that use the full 5.8G band per 1 link) by Telcos is proof of that. With some carriers pushing for Whitespace Backhaul, it viable that they'd try to use Whitespace UNlicensed for backhaul just the same. Part of the attraction of TV Whitespace was not only its propogation characteristics, but also the large number of channels, so there was enough to go around for multiple palyers. If unlicensed Whitespace is only allocated in a small capacity, our industry would continue to get plagued with risk, with little room to move to, if interference ever occured. So it scares me when I hear things like, what do you think about the first 7 channels? It could mean, say goodbye to the rest? It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
6MHz is a weird channel size for our industry traditionally but in 5MHz ~25Mbps aggregate would be comfortable. -Hal On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:39 -0700, Ryan Spott wrote: Hey Steve, I use the cable-cos as an example. They get 30Mbit/sec for 6Mhz. (at least using docsis) ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Wimax in 3.65 is 7MHz IIRC... ? With this sort of bandwidth, and the channel bonding ?that is possible? this could be a real game changer.. SD video streams top out at 1.5mbps, HD is between that at 8mbps (ESPN requires a CIR of 8mbps) Suddenly triple-play is available... with no wire. Expect hard core competition. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.netwrote: 6MHz is a weird channel size for our industry traditionally but in 5MHz ~25Mbps aggregate would be comfortable. -Hal On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:39 -0700, Ryan Spott wrote: Hey Steve, I use the cable-cos as an example. They get 30Mbit/sec for 6Mhz. (at least using docsis) ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
In-line ... A Couple questions. 3. Is there something wrong or more encombersome with Bands 1-X (7?), that we dont know about or do know about? We know the size of radiators in the lower portion would be greater. However, lower frequencies propagate better, and a half wave element shows a higher voltage than the voltage at higher frequencies, so gain tradeoffs are partially negated. 5. How will our Antenna size requirements vary for this portion of the band? Each segment would have to have a radiator designed for that segment -- optimally. I guess my point is What do we as WISPs really think about the VHF ch 1-X (7?) compared to the other portions of the Whitespace band? I'd much rather have 300 MHz, 500 MHz or higher, but in rural areas, lower frequencies would work quite well in my opinion. If the FCC is hypothetically putting the lower bands out there, what do we want to do about it? Reach for the ring and don't look back! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Tom, Could you give us a hint how we would find this info? Randy It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivnerj...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnesst...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
(As the lights come on and the eyes brighten) OK so now I get it. The Carrier frequency and the bandwidth is just the pipe. What we need to worry about is the floor noise, the carrier we attach to and what compression technology we use on that carrier which determines the speed and throughput. I've been in the PC business to long and had the higher freq = more throughput had that assumption since there is lower throughput on 900Mhz. Need to go back to my radio classes from college. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF channels is the overall higher noise level which is certainly an issue but not a deal killer for us. I am guessing that our use of the lowest VHF channels would require more forward error correction to provide high quality service. In my opinion this is a minor annoyance to be able to have coverage to 100% of my potential customer base. John Scrivner On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
On 4/5/2010 11:02 AM, Tom DeReggi wrote: A Couple questions. First, I would agree, any Whitespace spectrum is good spectrum for us, and better than none. But, why does the FCC keep hypothetically asking us what about VHF channels 1-x the lower part of the band? I think when we met with Blair, the lower portion of VHF also came up briefly. 1. Are they asking us, because they plan to give the rest to someone else :-( 2. Are they asking because others are requesting the higher portions of the band, that are more advantageous?And wondering whether we consider the lower portions more or less advantageous for our use? 3. Is there something wrong or more encombersome with Bands 1-X (7?), that we dont know about or do know about? 4. Is VHF ch 1-X (7?) more advantageous, becaue its a band more widely available in more places in the US? (For example, I think some free channels exist in Band 1-7 for the DC area, but I'd need to go back and check to verify). 5. How will our Antenna size requirements vary for this portion of the band? Hey Tom... a six meter vertical is long - a half wave is about 8.6 feet.(6m is 50-54mHz) so a quarter wave vertical is 4.3'. Add more gain gets bigger. Look at the elements in a TV yagi to get a feel for the low-band (2-6) element size. ALso, most tv antennas are not that directional on lo-band; hi-band (7-13) usually has more gain and directionality. But would I want to be able to use that spectrum? Absolutely. snip Leon No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2792 - Release Date: 04/05/10 02:32:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Leon: Innovation will be key. Yes, a 6 meter vertical is large. But, what if you bent that quarter wave into an odd shape? Think fractals, cloverleafs, and other HORIZONATL elements. Comparing what we'd HAVE to use compared to a TV Yagi is apples to oranges. Besides, most TV antennas I have ever met are Log Periodic Dipole arrays, NOT Yagis. Why? Because they have to be engineered to operate in the ENTIRE TV spectrum, NOT a 6 MHz segment. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Channel 2 (54-60 MHz) 102 259cm Channel 3 (60-66 MHz) 92 234cm Channel 4 (66-72 MHz) 83 211cm Channel 6 (82-88 MHz) 72 183cm A typical antenna for low-band VHF: http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/Y5-2-6.pdf from http://www.antennacraft.net/Yagi.html Ugly? Yes. Cheap (for now)? Yes Broadband with penetration: Heck yes. :) ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Leon D. Zetekoff wa4...@arrl.net wrote: On 4/5/2010 11:02 AM, Tom DeReggi wrote: A Couple questions. First, I would agree, any Whitespace spectrum is good spectrum for us, and better than none. But, why does the FCC keep hypothetically asking us what about VHF channels 1-x the lower part of the band? I think when we met with Blair, the lower portion of VHF also came up briefly. 1. Are they asking us, because they plan to give the rest to someone else :-( 2. Are they asking because others are requesting the higher portions of the band, that are more advantageous?And wondering whether we consider the lower portions more or less advantageous for our use? 3. Is there something wrong or more encombersome with Bands 1-X (7?), that we dont know about or do know about? 4. Is VHF ch 1-X (7?) more advantageous, becaue its a band more widely available in more places in the US? (For example, I think some free channels exist in Band 1-7 for the DC area, but I'd need to go back and check to verify). 5. How will our Antenna size requirements vary for this portion of the band? Hey Tom... a six meter vertical is long - a half wave is about 8.6 feet.(6m is 50-54mHz) so a quarter wave vertical is 4.3'. Add more gain gets bigger. Look at the elements in a TV yagi to get a feel for the low-band (2-6) element size. ALso, most tv antennas are not that directional on lo-band; hi-band (7-13) usually has more gain and directionality. But would I want to be able to use that spectrum? Absolutely. snip Leon No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2792 - Release Date: 04/05/10 02:32:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
On 4/5/2010 12:18 PM, Mike wrote: Leon: Innovation will be key. Yes, a 6 meter vertical is large. But, what if you bent that quarter wave into an odd shape? Think fractals, cloverleafs, and other HORIZONATL elements. Comparing what we'd HAVE to use compared to a TV Yagi is apples to oranges. Besides, most TV antennas I have ever met are Log Periodic Dipole arrays, NOT Yagis. Why? Because they have to be engineered to operate in the ENTIRE TV spectrum, NOT a 6 MHz segment. Hey Mike... I was just using the size as a reference as well as the tv antenna. THe longest elements on a TV antenna is 6m. yes log periodic is the correct terminology :-) but its still a yagi of sorts. I agree that innovation will be the key. remember the top part of lo-band is 88 mHz. There is probably a way to build a multi-TV channel antenna. Look at HF verticals or vhf/uhf mobile antennas. leon No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2792 - Release Date: 04/05/10 02:32:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
I've driven this often, but ATPC should be on every device that engages in 2 way communications. Every... single... one. Don't tell me it's expensive to do, I can buy a new $10 cell phone out of contract that does it. Without proper ATPC, high power on low frequencies will travel forever in both intended and unintended areas. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 11:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Depends on the distance and the obstructions. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Would you rather have more power than you need or not enough? We also propose use of automatic transmitter power control so we only use as much power as we need. jack Kurt Fankhauser wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
While it wouldn't need to cover the entire range, I'd expect at a most separate UHF and VHF antenna... otherwise you're way too specific and would need to stock too many different antenna models. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:23 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
The transmit frequency has nothing to do with how much data you can send, it's the channel size. Channel 2 will move as much data as channel 50. TVBD will have limited use if you can't bond at least 3 channels together, closer to 6. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:55 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving customers more bandwidth and faster service. Yes it would cut through trees and I would love it. But at 2-3X dialup speed? The upper bands are definitely better but then you lower your penetration (800 Mhz). Someone enlighten me here. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:24 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Think innovation. Remove or move a segment of a certain element design and you've modified the resonant frequency. With things I have in my barn I could design and build a turnstile with tunable elements. Think trombone with specific markings. Broadband antennas by design need be larger than an antenna designed for a specific segment. From everything I know about antenna design, this is NOT a deal breaker. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC While it wouldn't need to cover the entire range, I'd expect at a most separate UHF and VHF antenna... otherwise you're way too specific and would need to stock too many different antenna models. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:23 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular sense. I know some of the discussion in the past on this list led some to believe an antenna would look like a big TV log periodic, but it just isn't so. A TV antenna is by necessity a broadband device, and as such is BIG to handle a RANGE of frequencies. A turnstile or other narrow band antenna could be built to blend with the aesthetics of a home or business. Heck, if this comes to pass, I may go into the antenna building business just for this usage. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
At 20watts, you probably won't need a 15db antenna. :) With lightly licensed, you probably won't need a sector. (less interference). With GPS timing (ala moto/cell gear) you will have less self-interference. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
So we're regressing to a bunch of high powered omnis? Maybe I don't understand how much of a God-send sync is, but if it's that great, why is the default Canopy setup 6x 60* sectors instead of a single omni? (I'm not saying sync is bad, I wish everything had sync). I don't really give a hoot about the higher power. Regular power levels will give me the penetration I need. I'll run out of mbit/s long before I run out of dB. I am aware that more rural areas need the higher power. As many people are looking to penetrate the foliage domain of a populated town or subdivision as there are looking to traverse a sparse forest. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:02 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC At 20watts, you probably won't need a 15db antenna. :) With lightly licensed, you probably won't need a sector. (less interference). With GPS timing (ala moto/cell gear) you will have less self-interference. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Mike, I would suggest that you not use this band if it does not meet your needs. I tend to not use 5.8 in my area as 5.8 does not meet my needs. Your needs appear to be different from mine. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: So we're regressing to a bunch of high powered omnis? Maybe I don't understand how much of a God-send sync is, but if it's that great, why is the default Canopy setup 6x 60* sectors instead of a single omni? (I'm not saying sync is bad, I wish everything had sync). I don't really give a hoot about the higher power. Regular power levels will give me the penetration I need. I'll run out of mbit/s long before I run out of dB. I am aware that more rural areas need the higher power. As many people are looking to penetrate the foliage domain of a populated town or subdivision as there are looking to traverse a sparse forest. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:02 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC At 20watts, you probably won't need a 15db antenna. :) With lightly licensed, you probably won't need a sector. (less interference). With GPS timing (ala moto/cell gear) you will have less self-interference. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
You're not going to need 15 dBi. Link budgets are way different at VHF than Microwave. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Antenna gain is just as much about where the power is as where it isn't. It's a much more effective use of my equipment to focus the energy out in a 8 or 10 degree E plane than it is to shoot it at the moon or at the base of the tower. I also can't very well engineer my network around sources of interference if it's listening in all directions. IF these devices have sync, it still doesn't help against other sources that aren't synced such as an uncooperative competitor, different technology (whether competitor, TV station, spurious emission, etc.) Even with all these safeguards for the TV stations, I'd still rather not point a sector using the same frequency as a TV station towards that station's contour unless I have to... just being a friendly neighbor. A link budget is still a link budget. All that's different is the amount of free space loss and attenuation by various objects. I'd rather have quiet radios and big antennas than vice versa. We'd be a completely different use of these bands. Typical uses are broadcast or two-way systems where cells and capacity aren't of concern. Our *ULTIMATE* goal is to get as many mbit/s to as many customers as profitably as we can. Frequency, radio power, and radiation patterns dictate how many people get the mbit/s your gear is capable of. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC You're not going to need 15 dBi. Link budgets are way different at VHF than Microwave. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
I was sent a private post asking what system, if I was designing it, I would deploy. Respecting that post, I'll just answer here. I think a form of spread spectrum technology, perhaps using coherent radios would be just the thing. Some of the best algorithms give those whose function it is to intercept and analyze heartburn. But there is a way around that. If use of the segments were subject to a sort of licensing light, where the operator has demonstrated ability to provide CALEA data by user if subpoenaed, a compromise could be found. A properly designed coherent system could use 200 watts and only raise the measurable local noise floor a portion of a dB or so. If each coherent band comprised 6 MHz chunks across 50 or 100 MHz, a simple (mechanically) antenna at the CPE end could be designed. Some sort of daisy, or fractal, or whatever elements could be designed and phased to exhibit circular polarization of whichever sense you desired. These are all just brainstorming ideas and in no way constitute a completely though out plan. My math may be off by a factor of 10. LOL Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Circular polarization is used to prevent picket fencing - the signal dropping out repeatedly as one moves through areas where reflections meet to create a null in the signal. And you pay a price for that because the receive antennas are not circularly polarized. So there's a polarization mismatch. Greg On Apr 5, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Mike wrote: Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
2.5GHz or MHz? On Apr 4, 2010, at 5:06 PM, RickG wrote: Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more than 30 miles away with multi-megabit connections. Give me power! On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Theoretically, if you have the circular sense of a circularly polarized signal wrong, you will have infinite loss. However, typically, due to distortions in the atmosphere and multipath, you will end up with an elliptical signal with an E-field vector component greater in one direction than the other. Using a linearly polarized antenna for a circularly polarized signal shows a theoretical loss of 3 dB. My experiments showed this loss to be both greater and lesser than that, depending on the path. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Greg Ihnen Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 3:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Circular polarization is used to prevent picket fencing - the signal dropping out repeatedly as one moves through areas where reflections meet to create a null in the signal. And you pay a price for that because the receive antennas are not circularly polarized. So there's a polarization mismatch. Greg On Apr 5, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Mike wrote: Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of aluminum parts, not panels like we are used to using now. I predict circular polarity will be the norm. Why? Because theoretically, a receive antenna of opposite circular sense exhibits infinite loss. My experiments have shown that reality is less, but you CAN expect at least 30 to 40 dB of isolation. The same 6 MHz segment could be reused on the same tower. The phasing harness on the CPE antenna would have to set to either left hand or right hand circular polarization. Friendly Regards, Mike Mike Gilchrist Disruptive Technologist Advanced Wireless Express P.O. Box 255 Toledo, IA 52342 239.770.6203 m...@aweiowa.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg you to find it. Even well hidden, you would. Now, give me a few hours to build a narrow band antenna with similar gain in ANY 6 MHz segment of the same bands, and let me try to hide it. Do you think I could hide it well enough you wouldn't find it? I know I can. My point is, the antenna which will be needed for any segment of the whitespace will be much less intrusive than the LPDA (or Yagi) being used for comparison. This is great dialogue. I hope we are faced with the challenge of deploying in these bands. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
GHz. I dont think MHz would carry much data? On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: 2.5GHz or MHz? On Apr 4, 2010, at 5:06 PM, RickG wrote: Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more than 30 miles away with multi-megabit connections. Give me power! On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Probably not but it has some other uses! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_frequency Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:02 AM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: GHz. I dont think MHz would carry much data? On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: 2.5GHz or MHz? On Apr 4, 2010, at 5:06 PM, RickG wrote: Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more than 30 miles away with multi-megabit connections. Give me power! On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more than 30 miles away with multi-megabit connections. Give me power! On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Let me guess...Hybrid Technologies. I tried to lease space from Heartland to launch the same system but they would not get me access to their spectrum under any terms. Spectrum is the key. Scriv On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 4:36 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more than 30 miles away with multi-megabit connections. Give me power! On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Thats right. Worked well but costs were too high for our customer base so it never took off. On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 8:18 PM, John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com wrote: Let me guess...Hybrid Technologies. I tried to lease space from Heartland to launch the same system but they would not get me access to their spectrum under any terms. Spectrum is the key. Scriv On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 4:36 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more than 30 miles away with multi-megabit connections. Give me power! On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
JACK, Thank you and your team for all your hard work and travels and time away from your networks! Excellent changes and Excellent Presentation. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 4:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
I second Chuck. Looks very good. Chuck Profito wrote: JACK, Thank you and your team for all your hard work and travels and time away from your networks! Excellent changes and Excellent Presentation. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 4:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Scott Reed Sr. Systems Engineer GAB Midwest 1-800-363-1544 x2241 1-260-827-2241 Cell: 260-273-7239 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC
Depends on the distance and the obstructions. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Would you rather have more power than you need or not enough? We also propose use of automatic transmitter power control so we only use as much power as we need. jack Kurt Fankhauser wrote: 20 watt radio's? Going into lets say a 6db antenna? Your looking at 80 watts. Is this really necessary? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC This would be UP TO 20 watts at the radio. We explained how 900 works for most of us. (it sorta does... mostly) ryan On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: The 20 watt power output request. Is this for total ERP or at the radio? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:17 PM To: memb...@wispa.org; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC Last Wednesday, March 31, the WISPA FCC Committee assisted by the WISPA Promotions Committee met with top managers of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) at FCC Headquarters in Washington D.C. to discuss the status of WISPA's TV Whitespaces filings. The following Members represented WISPA. Ryan Spott, Alex Phillips, John Scriver, and Jack Unger. The WISPA Team was assisted by Steve Coran of Rini/Coran LLC in Washington. All Team Members made valuable contributions to the effort and we all feel that the meeting went well. Our goal was to ask the FCC take favorable action soon on WISPA's Petitions to adjust the TV Whitespace rules by making corrections to several problem areas, thereby making WISP use of the Whitespaces more practical and more successful. I'm attaching a more detailed report (.doc file) and also the official written filing (PDF) that WISPA is required to make after every meeting with the FCC. A copy of our FCC PowerPoint presentation is also required to be part of our written filing. To easily view our presentation, please rotate the attached PDF clockwise 90 degrees in your Adobe Reader viewer. Your questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. Respectfully Submitted, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Committee Chair 818-227-4220 -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
