IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Hi Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. especially if your systems have a vested interest in some piece of obsolete technology.. but there are two things that strike me as odd here - - IE7 has been around for about 2 years now. It takes about 10 minutes to install IE7 on the desktop (I did one yesterday). 2 employees shouldn't be that difficult ? - the last time I worked in a big corporate environment, upgrades happened with a zap disk - either by choice or because the OS became unusable. The zap would boot up the PC and download an image to the machine, installing the image. A fresh new windows in about 30 minutes. So, time isn't obviously an issue - I think it's more the tying of an application to one browser -- if it's for internal use that's a special case that probably doesn't apply to general public web use. Get enough people hammering on the door and somethings gotta give, I say ;) Cheers James On Monday 04 August 2008 15:54:41 Phillips, Wendy wrote: I would agree. When you have over 20,000 employees and multiple legacy systems, upgrading an OS is a really big deal and you will always be behind the pack. Staff don't have the choice or ability to upgrade. WP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lewis, Matthew Sent: Monday, 4 August 2008 2:05 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue? as to say look at the theory of developing specifics for IE6. There is a gaining movement around to start phasing out IE6 support - look at 37signals, I think they begin IE6 phase out this week or next. They've done their maths and taken a gamble. Hopefully it'll spark something. [snip...] In the end, do you want to spend hours developing hacks for IE6 or just nicely push people into an upgrade path? OT and not much to do with IE6 .png solutions but instead, the ongoing support of IE6 aspect of this thread. I was advised by a lesser Microsoft management bot that many corporate organisations have a 'latest minus one' policy, which means only running up to the previous version of any current browser. This will hopefully mean that when IE8 is fully released many corporate techs will then upgrade to IE7, ideally resulting in a bulk upgrade of the costly IE6. I hope this has some truth. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Another problem is that there are organisations which still have large investments in a legacy O/S (MS included) on which IE7/8 cannot run. So it's not just a time issue for downloading the browser, but upgrading to a new O/S. On Mon, August 4, 2008 8:03 am, James Ellis wrote: Hi Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. especially if your systems have a vested interest in some piece of obsolete technology.. but there are two things that strike me as odd here - - IE7 has been around for about 2 years now. It takes about 10 minutes to install IE7 on the desktop (I did one yesterday). 2 employees shouldn't be that difficult ? - the last time I worked in a big corporate environment, upgrades happened with a zap disk - either by choice or because the OS became unusable. The zap would boot up the PC and download an image to the machine, installing the image. A fresh new windows in about 30 minutes. So, time isn't obviously an issue - I think it's more the tying of an application to one browser -- if it's for internal use that's a special case that probably doesn't apply to general public web use. Get enough people hammering on the door and somethings gotta give, I say ;) Cheers James On Monday 04 August 2008 15:54:41 Phillips, Wendy wrote: I would agree. When you have over 20,000 employees and multiple legacy systems, upgrading an OS is a really big deal and you will always be behind the pack. Staff don't have the choice or ability to upgrade. WP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lewis, Matthew Sent: Monday, 4 August 2008 2:05 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue? as to say look at the theory of developing specifics for IE6. There is a gaining movement around to start phasing out IE6 support - look at 37signals, I think they begin IE6 phase out this week or next. They've done their maths and taken a gamble. Hopefully it'll spark something. [snip...] In the end, do you want to spend hours developing hacks for IE6 or just nicely push people into an upgrade path? OT and not much to do with IE6 .png solutions but instead, the ongoing support of IE6 aspect of this thread. I was advised by a lesser Microsoft management bot that many corporate organisations have a 'latest minus one' policy, which means only running up to the previous version of any current browser. This will hopefully mean that when IE8 is fully released many corporate techs will then upgrade to IE7, ideally resulting in a bulk upgrade of the costly IE6. I hope this has some truth. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl question
A dl is a LIST of definition terms and their description. dt is a definition term to be described (not title). dd is description of the definition term. See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 On Mon, August 4, 2008 4:20 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was under the impression a dl could only contain one dt and one or many dd's. But I have just come across a piece of code that uses multiple dt's in the one dl Upon further investigation, it seems this is legitimate practicebut does it make sense?!?! Semantically, isn't the whole point of a dl to use definition data tags (dd's) to describe a definition title (dt)!? Does it make sense to have multiple definition titles in the same dl?! Or does it make more sense to have a seperate dl for each dt?? __ Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] what you write is what you see [OT?]
my cousin is visiting from oregon and he has the new att iphone. we looked at my web site on it and i must say that i was really surprised. it looked just like it does on a computer. the xhtml and css validate. i used no special css for mobile devices. i'm sure that i have a semantically correct document. this was a big surprise for me. this was the first time i had seen my web site on a cell phone. it was very exciting. i hope that other mobile devices follow suit of the new iphone so coding for developers will be simple, quick and easy and no multiple style sheets for computers and mobile devices. dwain -- Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. At the risk of starting a war, it doesn't sound like you do understand. Before even starting to plan a migration, any decent corporation, of whatever size, must first demonstrate a business advantage to the task. The bigger the organisation is, the more likely they will have a desktop image (XP Pro) that can be applied to any machine they buy in, regardless of what is on it, so neither hardware obsolescence nor the withdrawal of software support holds a big fear for most. The true question is not 'why not upgrade to IE7?' but actually 'why change?'. I can give numerous reasons to upgrade to FF, but no real reasons to upgrade to IE7. As an aside, I am not at all worried by this - it was the longevity of IE4 that did most to make people aware of the alternatives; hopefully IE6 will have the same effect: a little more short-term pain for some long-term gain as they switch to Safari. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] what you write is what you see [OT?]
Dwain said: it looked just like it does on a computer. What did you expect Dwain..lolol What does look awesome is my Wordpress on Plasma 42 on a lounge wall *OMG! Kate - Original Message - From: dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: web standards group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 10:27 AM Subject: [WSG] what you write is what you see [OT?] my cousin is visiting from oregon and he has the new att iphone. we looked at my web site on it and i must say that i was really surprised. it looked just like it does on a computer. the xhtml and css validate. i used no special css for mobile devices. i'm sure that i have a semantically correct document. this was a big surprise for me. this was the first time i had seen my web site on a cell phone. it was very exciting. i hope that other mobile devices follow suit of the new iphone so coding for developers will be simple, quick and easy and no multiple style sheets for computers and mobile devices. dwain -- Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] what you write is what you see [OT?]
On 8/4/08, kate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dwain said: it looked just like it does on a computer. What did you expect Dwain..lolol i really didn't know what to expect, that's why it was such a surprise. i don't know, maybe i expected the css not to work and the page would display would display as xhtml without the css. like i said, i had never seen my web site or any other web site on a mobile device. dwain -- Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Hi Mike No worries, not interested in war, but I do understand. I guess the one big answer about why change is that, over time, sites will just stop working to their full efficiency. There is also the big one called security (or lack of). I hope, but I don't think, that this fabled desktop image would include FF3, Safari 3 or Opera 9.5 as the default browser :D even IE7 gives me the odd grey hair still. I can only think the organisations that can't upgrade are those completely welded to IE6 because their interfaces only work in that browser OR those that are still using Windows 95/98/2000. If their IT setup is structured that way wellthey've got their own hole to dig out of. I guess what I'm getting at is that for new clients or redevelopments, we can do a lot to educate clients and customers and following on from that improve our lot as developers -- maybe even hasten IE6's demise. Thanks! James On Monday 04 August 2008 20:23:10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. At the risk of starting a war, it doesn't sound like you do understand. Before even starting to plan a migration, any decent corporation, of whatever size, must first demonstrate a business advantage to the task. The bigger the organisation is, the more likely they will have a desktop image (XP Pro) that can be applied to any machine they buy in, regardless of what is on it, so neither hardware obsolescence nor the withdrawal of software support holds a big fear for most. The true question is not 'why not upgrade to IE7?' but actually 'why change?'. I can give numerous reasons to upgrade to FF, but no real reasons to upgrade to IE7. As an aside, I am not at all worried by this - it was the longevity of IE4 that did most to make people aware of the alternatives; hopefully IE6 will have the same effect: a little more short-term pain for some long-term gain as they switch to Safari. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] what you write is what you see [OT?]
Hi Dwain, I guess yea, it would have looked messy without the CSS...never thought of that. I hav'nt looked on my Samsung but I did see mine on my old Nokia. which I thought was really cool then. I think you can look at any Web now on a cell phone. I also got word from BT this morning about BTtogo. Its a handset that allows Broadband on the move. http://www.filesaveas.com/bttogo.html Last week I saw that you don't even need a landline as a simcard allows broadband. Technology does'nt keep static. Kate - Original Message - From: dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] what you write is what you see [OT?] On 8/4/08, kate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dwain said: it looked just like it does on a computer. What did you expect Dwain..lolol i really didn't know what to expect, that's why it was such a surprise. i don't know, maybe i expected the css not to work and the page would display would display as xhtml without the css. like i said, i had never seen my web site or any other web site on a mobile device. dwain -- Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl question
To clarify, when people use a definition list for something other than actual definitions and terms, they usually use the dt's and dd's to represent the relationship of the items within the dl. For example - markup for a list of properties for sale: dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl dl dtPhoto of Property/dt dtAddress of Property/dt ddPrice of Property/dd ddBeds and Baths/dd /dl In this case the dt's handle the terms, or way we identify a property - by a picture of it or by address. The dd's handle the attributes of the property: bedrooms, baths, price etc. You can apply this principle to almost any information - sometimes a tabular layout works even better - it just depends on your needs. The dl used in this examples works great on crappy cellphones since its elements stack. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stuart Foulstone wrote: A dl is a LIST of definition terms and their description. dt is a definition term to be described (not title). dd is description of the definition term. See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 On Mon, August 4, 2008 4:20 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was under the impression a dl could only contain one dt and one or many dd's. But I have just come across a piece of code that uses multiple dt's in the one dl Upon further investigation, it seems this is legitimate practicebut does it make sense?!?! Semantically, isn't the whole point of a dl to use definition data tags (dd's) to describe a definition title (dt)!? Does it make sense to have multiple definition titles in the same dl?! Or does it make more sense to have a seperate dl for each dt?? __ Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;fax:886-301-8045 tel;home:609-886-9660 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Ladies and Gentlemen, The opposite is true as well. I don't do work for large entities - only very small local businesses so I can share their own situation. Theres no question in my mind that these entities make up a huge share of computer usage. This typical office I work has computers that fall into these groups: The new computers (usually just a couple reserved for the people on them constantly like secretaries etc) - always Dells with either XP sp2 or Vista. Both have IE7 installed. This covers occasional laptops people bring from home etc too. The normal computers (all Dell Dimensions with celerons and around 3-4 years old) These computers represent the business's major technology investment and all have IE6 and are slow as hell. The old computers (they all seem to still have ONE floating around) that has wither win2000, ME, or 98 (its true!) that are typically hidden in the back of the office. Point being, large organizations making major migrations to ease the burden of web development isn't going to happen at a rate that would please us. Most of these organizations will only migrate if something disastrous happens. I imagine: As CEOs iron out what to do with profits for the year do you really think any one of them are saying I was gonna pocket this money or spend it on my mistress, but instead lets get the work force some new computers, I noticed that images using alpha channels are not displaying properly for the slaves. I say probably not My 2 cents. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] James Ellis wrote: Hi Mike No worries, not interested in war, but I do understand. I guess the one big answer about why change is that, over time, sites will just stop working to their full efficiency. There is also the big one called security (or lack of). I hope, but I don't think, that this fabled desktop image would include FF3, Safari 3 or Opera 9.5 as the default browser :D even IE7 gives me the odd grey hair still. I can only think the organisations that can't upgrade are those completely welded to IE6 because their interfaces only work in that browser OR those that are still using Windows 95/98/2000. If their IT setup is structured that way wellthey've got their own hole to dig out of. I guess what I'm getting at is that for new clients or redevelopments, we can do a lot to educate clients and customers and following on from that improve our lot as developers -- maybe even hasten IE6's demise. Thanks! James On Monday 04 August 2008 20:23:10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. At the risk of starting a war, it doesn't sound like you do understand. Before even starting to plan a migration, any decent corporation, of whatever size, must first demonstrate a business advantage to the task. The bigger the organisation is, the more likely they will have a desktop image (XP Pro) that can be applied to any machine they buy in, regardless of what is on it, so neither hardware obsolescence nor the withdrawal of software support holds a big fear for most. The true question is not 'why not upgrade to IE7?' but actually 'why change?'. I can give numerous reasons to upgrade to FF, but no real reasons to upgrade to IE7. As an aside, I am not at all worried by this - it was the longevity of IE4 that did most to make people aware of the alternatives; hopefully IE6 will have the same effect: a little more short-term pain for some long-term gain as they switch to Safari. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;fax:886-301-8045 tel;home:609-886-9660 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty good for me. Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use then? Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 David Hucklesby wrote: On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:32:16 -0400, Michael Horowitz wrote: The live page is horowitzfamily.net. I'm just learning positioning and this seemed to work. The issue as mentioned earlier was transparency in my image. however I am just learning to do css without tables and really don't know what I should be doing for positioning. Quite honestly in hacking around this worked. I'll be happy to get feedback on better techniques for the future CSS gives you a lot of options for positioning elements on a page. As with all design issues, the best choice is usually a compromise, depending on what you want to achieve. My first choice for positioning elements is often to use margins - including negative margins on occasion. See this CommunityMX article for more: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=b0029 Hope this helps. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort of things. - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty good for me. Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use then? Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 David Hucklesby wrote: On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:32:16 -0400, Michael Horowitz wrote: The live page is horowitzfamily.net. I'm just learning positioning and this seemed to work. The issue as mentioned earlier was transparency in my image. however I am just learning to do css without tables and really don't know what I should be doing for positioning. Quite honestly in hacking around this worked. I'll be happy to get feedback on better techniques for the future CSS gives you a lot of options for positioning elements on a page. As with all design issues, the best choice is usually a compromise, depending on what you want to achieve. My first choice for positioning elements is often to use margins - including negative margins on occasion. See this CommunityMX article for more: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=b0029 Hope this helps. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
Adam... I am sorry but I have to disagree whole heartedly... What is the standards group, if not a place where all people can who choose to, can come and gain guidance and learning to become STANDARDS COMPLIANT??? It would appear that this is exactly what the group is for... I've mentioned this in another thread, where people get all uppity about not exactly web standards content (I think in that example it was discussing Development Platforms...) Regardless we are all professionals, and we are here to help, to learn and to keep up to date, so if somebody with slightly less experience than you asks for assistance, what's the harm in giving that assistance? It doesn't cost you anything and you do end up with a grateful developer/designer - and that's positive networking - again a very big plus for any business. /endOfRant Enjoy all :) David Fuller Developer magickweb Web:http://www.magick.com.au Tel: 0434 728 267 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:08 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort of things. - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty good for me. Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use then? Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 David Hucklesby wrote: On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:32:16 -0400, Michael Horowitz wrote: The live page is horowitzfamily.net. I'm just learning positioning and this seemed to work. The issue as mentioned earlier was transparency in my image. however I am just learning to do css without tables and really don't know what I should be doing for positioning. Quite honestly in hacking around this worked. I'll be happy to get feedback on better techniques for the future CSS gives you a lot of options for positioning elements on a page. As with all design issues, the best choice is usually a compromise, depending on what you want to achieve. My first choice for positioning elements is often to use margins - including negative margins on occasion. See this CommunityMX article for more: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=b0029 Hope this helps. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1589 - Release Date: 8/3/2008 1:00 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and Adams views. If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they must be accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards debating forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our time on what the experts among us may consider to be trivial. Two suggestions; [1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a little less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English when replying; thus to help others along the way. [2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest that they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back when a conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager thread watchers may be keen to know the answer too. I will now return to lurking Regards Ian Chamberlain ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and having a ball. www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk - Original Message - From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:23 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list Adam... I am sorry but I have to disagree whole heartedly... What is the standards group, if not a place where all people can who choose to, can come and gain guidance and learning to become STANDARDS COMPLIANT??? It would appear that this is exactly what the group is for... I've mentioned this in another thread, where people get all uppity about not exactly web standards content (I think in that example it was discussing Development Platforms...) Regardless we are all professionals, and we are here to help, to learn and to keep up to date, so if somebody with slightly less experience than you asks for assistance, what's the harm in giving that assistance? It doesn't cost you anything and you do end up with a grateful developer/designer - and that's positive networking - again a very big plus for any business. /endOfRant Enjoy all :) David Fuller Developer magickweb Web:http://www.magick.com.au Tel: 0434 728 267 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:08 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort of things. - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty good for me. Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use then? Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 David Hucklesby wrote: On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:32:16 -0400, Michael Horowitz wrote: The live page is horowitzfamily.net. I'm just learning positioning and this seemed to work. The issue as mentioned earlier was transparency in my image. however I am just learning to do css without tables and really don't know what I should be doing for positioning. Quite honestly in hacking around this worked. I'll be happy to get feedback on better techniques for the future CSS gives you a lot of options for positioning elements on a page. As with all design issues, the best choice is usually a compromise, depending on what you want to achieve. My first choice for positioning elements is often to use margins - including negative margins on occasion. See this CommunityMX article for more: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=b0029 Hope this helps. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
Well hey everybody... It would appear Andrew has decided to take his comments out of the public view and turn them personal... Please read.. On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:31 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote: group does NOT have to be SPECIFICALLY about web standards Perhaps not, but totally irrelevant attacks on any platform are a waste of everyone's time and energy. Frankly I don't believe anyone on this list learned anything useful from the fact that you don't like macs. So as one professional to another, please keep your comments constructive at least. If you have a reasoned argument as to why the macintosh platform is inimical to web standards, I for one would be interested to hear what you have to say. Otherwise your remark is as useful and informative to this list as your tastes in ice-cream would be. List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. Andrew if you are so afraid of negative comments, don't post at all. My comments were not aimed @ macs or any other platform - get your facts right before you start sprouting your mouth off... I used that development platform as an EXAMPLE of similar discussions had in the past where people got uppity... I was not referring to now.. To paraphrase yourself Andrew If you have something of value, then don't bring it to the forum Why can people not realize that they are not the end all and be all, and my main point was this. Those with less skills than professionals like myself (and Andrew I don't know I haven't seen his work) will ask questions to learn and to grow as developers... If we as a community want a unified web standard and it to be widely used and accepted, we need to encourage, help and support those who are still learning... Why is that so hard for you to fathom Andrew? David Fuller Developer magickweb Web:http://www.magick.com.au Tel: 0434 728 267 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:08 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and Adams views. If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they must be accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards debating forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our time on what the experts among us may consider to be trivial. Two suggestions; [1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a little less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English when replying; thus to help others along the way. [2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest that they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back when a conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager thread watchers may be keen to know the answer too. I will now return to lurking Regards Ian Chamberlain ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and having a ball. www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk - Original Message - From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:23 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list Adam... I am sorry but I have to disagree whole heartedly... What is the standards group, if not a place where all people can who choose to, can come and gain guidance and learning to become STANDARDS COMPLIANT??? It would appear that this is exactly what the group is for... I've mentioned this in another thread, where people get all uppity about not exactly web standards content (I think in that example it was discussing Development Platforms...) Regardless we are all professionals, and we are here to help, to learn and to keep up to date, so if somebody with slightly less experience than you asks for assistance, what's the harm in giving that assistance? It doesn't cost you anything and you do end up with a grateful developer/designer - and that's positive networking - again a very big plus for any business. /endOfRant Enjoy all :) David Fuller Developer magickweb Web:http://www.magick.com.au Tel: 0434 728 267 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:08 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group is meant to be a
Re: [WSG] form from hell - difficult redesign
Hi Kevin I'm no developer, but I can certainly advise on the *design* component of the project, if that would be of some assistance. I have designed GUIs for a travel and hotel booking engines before and as Joe Ortenzi says, I've been doing some research lately on tabular data. Feel free to contact me off-list. Jessica Enders Principal Formulate Information Design http://formulate.com.au Phone: (02) 6116 8765 Fax: (02) 8456 5916 PO Box 5108 Braddon ACT 2612 On 31/07/2008, at 11:09 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hi I've been asked to redesign the gui on a hotel booking engine / room allocation web app. Its basically the busiest example of tabular data ive ever seen - most data in the cells is input. Any Advice on styling an overwhelming amount tabular data? -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
