Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Hey Jackie I agree with you and think maybe I just didn't explain myself properly. A guy in high school who has made a site for his uncle and one for his soccer team is not going to be able to charge the same rate as someone who has been developing site professionally for a number of years. I completely agree with that point: rate should be based on quality of workmanship. This covers any service industry; architects, doctors, tilers, masseurs and web developers. But a developer's rate should be based on a broad range of factors, from the ability to guide the client through the process of designing a solution that fits their requirements through to the ability to implement the design effectively using whatever technologies are suitable. Web standards are a small but significant aspect of this and web standards are not always the right fit for every client. The idea that you can charge more for a site because it validates is missing the point entirely. Your site might be better than the one created by export to web from photoshop, but standards probably have very little to do with this difference. I'm sitting here now after work has officially finished and I'll be here for a while yet. Its not an exceptional day, I spend a lot of time outside of work hours learning. Tonight I might learn something that I don't know now and I might end up using that in a site I build tomorrow, but should I charge more for it? No way. The site might be of a slightly higher quality and all of these incremental changes in quality may add up to more happy clients and better sites in a portfolio. One day this might all add up to the point where I (or my accountant) realise that I can safely increase my rate. Or it might result in me winning a job because of my standards experience that I wouldn't have otherwise got. There's my reward. But until then I'll keep it where it is and keep learning how to build better sites. Knowledge of standards is very important but if you go to Bob's Pizza shop and think you can explain why you are 20% more expensive than that guy down the street by telling him the site you make will validate you're in for a rude surprise. Cheers Mark * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Could not agree more! End of the day validating a site is the least of you worries, unless that is what the client overall wants. To be honests i wouldnt even charge extra for a valid site, as in my eyes any true web developer should make sure it validates anyway, as it shows they know what there doing. I've currently taken on a great contract job with a uk council, and due to them requiring great w3c skills and bobby compatibility my skills in standards and css has got me a great job at nearly triple my normal rate! On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:19 , Mark Stanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: Hey Jackie I agree with you and think maybe I just didn't explain myself properly. A guy in high school who has made a site for his uncle and one for his soccer team is not going to be able to charge the same rate as someone who has been developing site professionally for a number of years. I completely agree with that point: rate should be based on quality of workmanship. This covers any service industry; architects, doctors, tilers, masseurs and web developers. But a developer's rate should be based on a broad range of factors, from the ability to guide the client through the process of designing a solution that fits their requirements through to the ability to implement the design effectively using whatever technologies are suitable. Web standards are a small but significant aspect of this and web standards are not always the right fit for every client. The idea that you can charge more for a site because it validates is missing the point entirely. Your site might be better than the one created by export to web from photoshop, but standards probably have very little to do with this difference. I'm sitting here now after work has officially finished and I'll be here for a while yet. Its not an exceptional day, I spend a lot of time outside of work hours learning. Tonight I might learn something that I don't know now and I might end up using that in a site I build tomorrow, but should I charge more for it? No way. The site might be of a slightly higher quality and all of these incremental changes in quality may add up to more happy clients and better sites in a portfolio. One day this might all add up to the point where I (or my accountant) realise that I can safely increase my rate. Or it might result in me winning a job because of my standards experience that I wouldn't have otherwise got. There's my reward. But until then I'll keep it where it is and keep learning how to build better sites. Knowledge of standards is very important but if you go to Bob's Pizza shop and think you can explain why you are 20% more expensive than that guy down the street by telling him the site you make will validate you're in for a rude surprise. Cheers Mark The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
To follow up on Jackie and Mark's comments, I adopt the What the market will bear rule. And, similarly, I spend nearly all my 'leisure' hours learning better, more efficient, more eloquent methods of both standards compliance and accessible site development. And I don't consider charging more. I simply make my pitch and explain that as a result of my skillsets, client sites are more accessible to a greater Internet audience. Period. All the verbiage over standards and accessibility compliance is a polite curio across the business table. Provided both my and my clients' principle agendas are met - how much does it cost and what will be the likely (increase in, if an upgrade) conversion rate, and we both leave the bargaining table satisfied, I can get on with the job of delivering. Most clients don't give a damn about what goes on under the hood. They want the site to reflect their company in a professional light, meet the business model and deliver as great a return on investment as possible. What will actually determine your costings base is the volume of work - the number of active clients you have in your portfolio - and the number of working hours you are willing to pull each week, assuming you adopt a minimum income model. These are the inputs to the How much to charge equation. Alter either of these and your rate will vary, irrespective of whether you offer standards-compliant, accessible sites. But. By adopting standards-compliant development you will naturally become more proficient and skilled, i.e. faster and better equipped to deliver capable sites whose performance metrics reflect your (professional) rates. The perceived value you bring to the bargaining table will increase; you can cut a better deal. In other words, you will be judged by your work and be rewarded accordingly. You can then reduce your working hours and maintain a similar income because what you deliver works well and you charge accordingly. It's the old Return on Investment (ROI) model. Intrinsic to all but vanity sites is the need to generate traffic. This becomes fundamentally more efficient with standards-compliant accessible sites because the inherently light and slick markup makes your site more easily ingested by the search engines whose SERPs algorithms will favour well-featured semantically tight copy and reward you and your clients with better visibility on the Web. That's the primary input to the conversion game: visibility. Once a visitor hits your site accessibility kicks in. A standards-compliant, accessible site will be far 'stickier' because fewer surfers are likely to turn away in disgust or frustration; your site will work equally well in archaic browsers and on a variety of devices as it does on the latest P4 Explorer 6-based mega-depth monitor platform. And no, I'm not confusing accessibility with usability. They are different fields of expertise but both are underpinned and enhanced by standards-compliance. So, visibility brings the traffic; accessibility maintains the traffic. Visitors with physical and/or cerebral impairments (a huge market when you consider many pensioners fall into this audience) will more likely bookmark and return because the site is usable. These are the basic commonsense arguments for promoting standards-compliant and accessible development. But to return to the point: should you charge more? Yes. Because your development practices will ensure your clients earn a better ROI. In the business world that's all that matters. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Neerav wrote: My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that As I see it, Web standards allows you to charge more and less at the same time. Since you're offering better quality, it makes sense to charge more for your services. However, since development time is less, the cost to the client will be less. $50/hr x 20hr = $1000 $60/hr x 15hr = $900 A win-win scenario. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
In a perfect world, but we always no when it comes to standards unless your keeping it simple i would never quote a hourly rate. Would rather go flat fee and get a even medium and make sure i get the job done, and keep the client happy and willing to come back... take http://authors.aspalliance.com/aylar/ViewPasteCode.aspx?PasteCodeID=2651 For example, it worked in FireFox but then as normaly! It kicked up a fuss and i spent a while getting it to work :S * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Mordechai Peller wrote: However, since development time is less, the cost to the client will be less. You say that as though the time savings are an undeniable fact. In my experience using CSS increases the initial template build and testing time but decreases the time taken to develop individual pages. As such, the time savings only really start to manifest themselves on medium to large scale jobs. For small scale jobs, it can actually take longer and thus be more costly. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Andy Budd wrote: You say that as though the time savings are an undeniable fact. In my experience using CSS increases the initial template build and testing time but decreases the time taken to develop individual pages. As such, the time savings only really start to manifest themselves on medium to large scale jobs. For small scale jobs, it can actually take longer and thus be more costly. I suppose I was thinking more along the terms of mid sized and up. It also depends on the complexity of the design. For a simple design the extra template development time should be small enough that there should still be some savings. In general, the advantages of standards increases as the size and intended reach of a site increases * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
*Nods approvingly* Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk You say that as though the time savings are an undeniable fact. In my experience using CSS increases the initial template build and testing time but decreases the time taken to develop individual pages. As such, the time savings only really start to manifest themselves on medium to large scale jobs. For small scale jobs, it can actually take longer and thus be more costly. Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Hi The slightly OT thread [WSG] Budget Design, made me think of an idea which is very relevent to all members of WSG .. My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Hello, Well I have. I'm still a high school student and therefore have no real qualifications other than experience. However people have seen my work and still come to me for design jobs. I charge less (again due to qualifications) but one of the main reasons people still contact me for design contracts even though they know my age and such is that I design by web standards. Nan Zhong Neerav wrote: Hi The slightly OT thread [WSG] Budget Design, made me think of an idea which is very relevent to all members of WSG .. My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Our web agency has been promoting the versatility of sites built to web standards instead of the our sites validate or the you could be threatened with legal action one day argument. Telling clients that their site will reach a larger audience, be forward compatible, or can be viewed better on handheld devices than table based layouts seems to be more convincing. We find that we don't have to charge much more for XHTML/CSS than we used to for table based designs because in most cases the development process is faster. Although it has been a steep learning curve (and still is) :) Luke Moulton My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? -- Neerav Bhatt * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
www.MACCAWS.org Thats a good reason to produce standards compliant websites. I recently had one job which the coding was easy, the actual complexity of the detail which was so high it was just a to big a job for me to do :( But the person who offered me the job, saw my site and emailed me. What was the significant factor, have you seen my site? www.t94xr.net.nz Camz - Original Message - From: Nan Zhong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more? Hello, Well I have. I'm still a high school student and therefore have no real qualifications other than experience. However people have seen my work and still come to me for design jobs. I charge less (again due to qualifications) but one of the main reasons people still contact me for design contracts even though they know my age and such is that I design by web standards. Nan Zhong Neerav wrote: Hi The slightly OT thread [WSG] Budget Design, made me think of an idea which is very relevent to all members of WSG .. My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
www.MACCAWS.org Thats a good reason to produce standards compliant websites. I recently had one job which the coding was easy, the actual complexity of the detail which was so high it was just a to big a job for me to do :( But the person who offered me the job, saw my site and emailed me. What was the significant factor, have you seen my site? www.t94xr.net.nz Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
On 01/06/2004, at 11:46 AM, Neerav wrote: So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? Yes. Every business needs to create a point of difference between itself and it's competitors to stand out. This would be one way to do it. Specials prices, stunning sample designs, pre-built code and templates to save the client money, quick turn-around times, money back guarantees, proven track records and proven experience would all also be valid ways of differentiating yourself from your competitors. But be careful, if every web firm suddenly promotes itself as being standards compliant, then there is no longer a differentiation. How many web form websites have you seen with this line? We create visually stunning, easy to use websites with intuitive user interfaces which load quickly Yep. Uh-huh. We all all say that. It might buy you a few months of differentiation, but I'm still not sure that the average client cares about standards -- they care about price design far above usability, accessibility and standards in my experience, and so they should. But what will the home page look like? :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Hey Guys This is a service industry, provide cost based on how much the will cost you to do (i.e. long the work takes you to do). Implementing standards may save you time or add extra development time. For example I feel that CSS based design takes less time and as such should cost less that a design that has font tags hidden graphics everywhere. Sure the client gets a better end result, but this is a competitive advantage to you not something that you want to be charging more for. A site can be made significantly accessibile by just developing it properly in the first instance. No extra hours should be required to get pretty close to A level compliance. If AAA level compliance is a stated requirement for a project then extra time will be needed to put in the extra coding and testing effort - this should be costed on just like any other work. Learning curve is your problem, hours spent on development is your clients problem. Cheers Mark * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
mark said: For example I feel that CSS based design takes less time and as such should cost less that a design that has font tags hidden graphics everywhere.(etc etc) Mark... my accountant would have you marched straight to the nearest wall and shot for saying that. Why on earth should we bother to learn the new skills and spend nights crying with frustration in the attempt to build valid accessible sites when financially its going to cost us money!. We dont pay other professional people, say a doctor or a solicitor or hairdresser, less because of his/her knowledge and skill... we pay them what the job is worth...and thats the way it should be as far as i am concerned. I am not charging more for valid sites, I am charging what the job is worth, if i can get the job out faster and more efficiently then good for me... i deserve to be rewarded. No client should be charged for a learning curve, i agree with that wholeheartedly and have never charged for time spent nutting out new skills. However there has to be a value for a site, and just because we have studied and learned new skills to enable us to give the client a better site should not mean we are then given a financial slap in the face for our hard won additional skills. The first few valid sites i built took me 4 times as long to build using css rather than tables and I lost money and sanity hand over fist on those jobs. Now i am starting to reap the benefits of my newfound skills (still not where they should be i hasten to add - but getting there) and I feel no need to justify the value i place on them. My client benefits and so will I. Jackie Reid * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
