[ZION] JS quote
At this time, the truth on the guilty should not be told openly, strange as this may seem, yet this is a policy. We must use precaution in bringing sinners to justice, lest in exposing these heinous sins we draw the indignation of a Gentile world upon us (and, to their imagination, justly too). It is necessary to hold an influence in the world, and thus spare ourselves an extermination; and also accomplish our end in spreading the Gospel, or holiness, in the earth. If we were brought to desolation, the disobedient would find no help. There are some who are obedient, yet men cannot steady the arkmy arm cannot do itGod must steady it. To the iniquitous show yourselves merciful. I am advised by some of the heads of the Church to tell the Relief Society to be virtuous, but to save the Church from desolation and the sword; beware, be still, be prudent, repent, reform, but do it in a way not to destroy all around you. I do not want to cloak iniquityall things contrary to the will of God, should be cast from us, but don't do more hurt than good, with your tonguesbe pure in heart. Jesus designs to save the people out of their sins. Said Jesus, "Ye shall do the work, which ye see me do." These are the grand key-words for the society to act upon. If I were not in your midst to aid and counsel you, the devil would overcome you. I want the innocent to go freerather spare ten iniquitous among you, than condemn one innocent one. "Fret not thyself because of evildoers." God will see to it. (May 26, 1842.) DHC 5:19-21. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976], 239.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Teaching Correct Principle
After much pondering, Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: I know what you are saying and agree in principle, but please read this carefully and see if the phrase "puffed up with their own " in the last two sentences doesn't jump out at you? Signaturus rhetoric! Do you really feel that way? I can see where you are coming from, Elmer. And you are probably right that I need to be more humble. But after a while a guy gets tired of being misunderstood even though he is speaking the truth. Speaking the truth should never prompt an argument and bad feelings. When I mean to point a finger, and make things personal, then I'll let everyone know. Until then I recommend that those who might be offended read a little more carefully and see if I have singled them out in mere paraphrasing the scriptures and the writings of the prophets. Usually they will find that I have not. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] When a Girl Marries
Chet: Just for grins, I wonder if anyone here is old enough to recognize the source for our subject line? ___ Must come from the famous quote by Helen Rowland: When a girl marries, she exchanges the attentions of many men for the inattention of one. [grin] I'll leave it to you to figure out if I was actually old enough to remember, but I always prefered the CBS Radio Mystery theater over those other old radio shows, although another very interesting thought did cross my mind. I wonder if there are any other radio soap operas that actually broadcast on all three of the major networks, CBS, NBC, and ABC, as that one did for 19 years. That would be quite an accomplishment, almost as good as being on both the Red and the Blue Networks, don't you think? Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: I look at it this way: There are two kinds of Christians; those who have the fullness and those who don't. Celestial Christians = Latter-day Saints Terrestrial Christians = Baptists, Catholics, and the rest In this way we can believe our General Authorities when they refer to other churches as "Christians" and still have the title of "true Christians" all to ourselves. How about that, JWR? Sounds good to me. I still prefer the terms "true Christian" and "false Christian." It stirs up more discussion. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Muslim Extremists
It *is* cute, but also fallacious. You can't tell in advance if an 17-40 year old male Muslim is an extremist or not, that's the problem. This jokes takes it for granted that extremism is what's being screened for, when it isn't. Naturally there's an association between the two, but no causative element. There are other extremists around, too, like the IRA. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > I'm forwarding this from another list. I thought it was pretty funny in a > morbid sort of way. > > --- > >Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following Multiple Choice > >test. (The events are actual cuts from past history. They actually happened! > >Do you remember?) > > > > > >1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by: > >a. Olga Corbitt > >b. Sitting Bull > >c. Arnold Schwartzeneger > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by: > >a. Lost Norwegians > >b. Elvis > >c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40. > > > > > >3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by: > >a. John Dillinger > >b. The King of Sweden > >c. The Boy Scouts > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by: > >a. A pizza delivery boy > >b. Pee Wee Herman > >c. Geraldo Rivera > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old > >American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by: > >a. The Smurfs > >b. Davy Jones > >c. The Little Mermaid > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver > >trying to rescue passengers was murdered by: > >a. Captain Kid > >b. Charles Lindberg > >c. Mother Teresa > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by: > >a. Scooby Doo > >b. The Tooth Fairy > >c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by: > >a. Richard Simmons > >b. Grandma Moses > >c. Michael Jordan > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by: > >a. Mr. Rogers > >b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems > >c. The World Wrestling Federation > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to > >take > >out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the > >US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers. > >Thousands of people were killed by: > >a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd > >b. The Supreme Court of Florida > >c. Mr. Bean > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > > > >11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against: > >a. Enron > >b. The Lutheran Church > >c. The NFL > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by: > >a. Bonny and Clyde > >b. Captain Kangaroo > >c. Billy Graham > >d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 > > > > > >Nope, .I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do > >you? > >So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly muslim raghead > >fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be > >allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of > >80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with > >proper identification, Secret > >Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year-old > >Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning former Governors. > > \\\ > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do
Re: [ZION] True Christians
potential converts. :-) "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 09:49 12/5/2002 -0900, BLT wondered : > > >For years we referred to those outside the Church as "gentiles." Then > >that word wasn't good enough, so we stated saying "nonmember." Even that > >term is considered too politically incorrect. So what do we call them today? > > Lost > > Till the ever helpful > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] True Christians
Perhaps we need two different definitions: Christ-like, and Christian? "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Mark Gregson favored us with: > >What do we know about being a true Christian? Not much, really, because > >God has never revealed any definition for "true Christian". He has given > >the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom, however, and if you > >want that to be your definition of "true" then fine. It doesn't mean that > >one is perfectly keeping all the commandments here in this life. By the > >revealed requirements in D&C 76 and elsewhere, there are probably very > >many living now who qualify. > > This thread has gone further than I ever intended. I know there are many > wonderful, kind, and unselfish people in the world. I was not referring to > them. I was addressing those who claim that Mormons aren't Christians. > > For years we referred to those outside the Church as "gentiles." Then that > word wasn't good enough, so we stated saying "nonmember." Even that term > is considered too politically incorrect. So what do we call them today? > > Bruce R. McConkie frequently spoke of "apostate Christendom" to refer to > non-Mormon Christians. He also used the word "sectarian." I've thought > that "potential members" might work. How about "future > investigators?" Brothers and sisters might also work. I have often > preferred "traditional Christian" as opposed to "nontraditional Christian." > > But to those who want to call us a cult and say that we aren't Christians, > I want to make it perfectly clear that it is they who are not > Christians. Only one church on earth teaches true Christianity, and it > isn't the anti-Mormons or the traditional Christians that support them in > their work. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described > intellectuals" --Uncle Bob > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] True Christians
I look at it this way: There are two kinds of Christians; those who have the fullness and those who don't. Celestial Christians = Latter-day Saints Terrestrial Christians = Baptists, Catholics, and the rest In this way we can believe our General Authorities when they refer to other churches as "Christians" and still have the title of "true Christians" all to ourselves. How about that, JWR? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Teaching Correct Principle
At 09:13 12/5/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: Yet almost every true idea, principle, philosophy or behavior indicts someone. They take it personal. They falsely assume that you are targeting them or a loved one when all you are trying to do is teach the correct principle. I wish others could do as well as I do in making the distinction between teaching correct principle and finger pointing. I guess it just takes more intelligence than most people possess. John, I know what you are saying and agree in principle, but please read this carefully and see if the phrase "puffed up with their own " in the last two sentences doesn't jump out at you? Signaturus rhetoric! Do you really feel that way? Till the hiding under the carpet now // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
At 09:49 12/5/2002 -0900, BLT wondered : For years we referred to those outside the Church as "gentiles." Then that word wasn't good enough, so we stated saying "nonmember." Even that term is considered too politically incorrect. So what do we call them today? Lost Till the ever helpful // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Hell" aint cussin'!
>>> Chet favored us with the following: >And every Protestant church I've dealt with has the >doctrine that True Christians will be neutered angels >in Heaven, with no more feeling for their spouse than >one would have for a faithful brother or sister. If that is what they are expecting, and desire, then they'll get it. That's the terrestrial kingdom in a nutshell! I believe, however, that if they would just allow the Spirit to whisper to their hearts how much more wonderful it would be to have their family for eternity, then perhaps many would grasp onto that and learn of the true Church. Ol' Scratch seems to be doing quite a number on families these days however, and it makes it a little tougher for people to see past their family problems and see their families for what they could really be: a source of true happiness and joy forever. Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] "Hell" aint cussin'!
John W. Redelfs wrote: > that hell, whatever that means, is going to be a crowded place My understanding of Hell, as a literal place, comes from Alma Jr's experience while in his famous coma. To me - and I imagine to many people - not being able to have their wife and children with them would be hell. And every Protestant church I've dealt with has the doctrine that True Christians will be neutered angels in Heaven, with no more feeling for their spouse than one would have for a faithful brother or sister. Superamalgamated bummer! *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Me, I want a hula hoop.
> > Regardless, in 1836 when the revelation was given, Alvin still had not > > been baptized For that matter, neither had Theodore or Simon. I'm pretty sure that Leonardo had been, though Clyde Crashcup had Word of Wisdom problems. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:11:16 -0900 "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: > >So, until you get your eating habit under control, you aren't > following > >the D&C, and this means you aren't a true Christian because you > aren't > >following the prophets? I definitely wouldn't be considered one > under > >your definition, either, since there are many things I struggle > with and > >do not follow perfectly. > > > >JWR: > > > A Christian, by my definition, is one who follows Christ. And > since it > > is impossible to follow Christ without following those whom Christ > has > > sent to lead, namely President Hinckley, all nonmembers and many > members > > do not qualify as true Christians. --JWR > > Here you are committing two errors in your logic. First, you are > taking my > position to an extreme that I never intended. Second, you are > setting up a > straw man in doing so by assuming something that I never said. I > never > said that a person had to follow the prophets perfectly to be a true > Christian. > > When a person rejects the authorized messengers whom the Savior has > sent, > he is rejecting the Savior. It is the same. Who are these > authorize > messengers? I speak of our missionaries, prophets and apostles. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === Boy O boy, the Zion list is is just like them debate boards. Kind of fun too. :-) he he ;-) Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: You are thinking of the short mortal term we live in. All will bow the knee and profess Christ as Lord. The majority of them will eventually accept Christ, and though they may not merit the Celestial Kingdom, they still will accept the gospel someday. It is just that they will not have the ability to live all of the gospel, and so will not be celestial material. Even we will have to go through a perfecting and learning period before receiving godhood (DC 130). If one must be exalted before being a true Christian, then no one (not even Christ) was a true Christian as a mortal. I do not believe that eventually the majority of them will accept Christ, nor do I believe you can establish this claim as scriptural. On the contrary, Jesus said: 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat; 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (3 Nephi 14:13-15) How do you get "majority" from this? It clearly says that most people will not find the "narrow" way that leads to life. And if the various ministers and professional clergymen of other churches are not "false prophets," then who are the false prophets? You know. I think our disagreement on this and related issues stems from your desire to see everyone, or almost everyone saved. I don't think this is a righteous desire. It denies the concept of moral agency and the fact that many will choose the wrong. Only when we realize that keeping the commandments, including baptism, is the only road to salvation, do we have a good reason for keeping them. The scriptures do clearly establish that those who believe in Christ, and receive an authorized baptism will be "saved," and those who do not will be damned. This teaching that most people will be saved is not scriptural. If you think that it is, please show me your supporting evidence from scripture and the teachings of the modern prophets. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Teaching Correct Principle
According the Matthew 7:3, we are not to "judge" our fellow man. And according the Moroni 7:15 we are commanded to judge between right and wrong. This creates a problem for some who don't read carefully, or who jump to unwarranted conclusions about a writers intent. We are not to judge people. But we are supposed to judge ideas, principles, philosophies and behaviors. Judging the good from the evil is one of the most important reasons we are in mortality. Yet almost every true idea, principle, philosophy or behavior indicts someone. They take it personal. They falsely assume that you are targeting them or a loved one when all you are trying to do is teach the correct principle. I wish others could do as well as I do in making the distinction between teaching correct principle and finger pointing. I guess it just takes more intelligence than most people possess. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
"There can be no real and true Christianity, even with good works, unless we are deeply and personally committed to the reality of Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of the Father, who bought us, who purchased us in the great act of atonement." Spencer W. Kimball, The SaviorThe Center of Our Lives, Tambuli, Dec. 1979, 1 Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] True Christians
After much pondering, Mark Gregson favored us with: What do we know about being a true Christian? Not much, really, because God has never revealed any definition for "true Christian". He has given the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom, however, and if you want that to be your definition of "true" then fine. It doesn't mean that one is perfectly keeping all the commandments here in this life. By the revealed requirements in D&C 76 and elsewhere, there are probably very many living now who qualify. This thread has gone further than I ever intended. I know there are many wonderful, kind, and unselfish people in the world. I was not referring to them. I was addressing those who claim that Mormons aren't Christians. For years we referred to those outside the Church as "gentiles." Then that word wasn't good enough, so we stated saying "nonmember." Even that term is considered too politically incorrect. So what do we call them today? Bruce R. McConkie frequently spoke of "apostate Christendom" to refer to non-Mormon Christians. He also used the word "sectarian." I've thought that "potential members" might work. How about "future investigators?" Brothers and sisters might also work. I have often preferred "traditional Christian" as opposed to "nontraditional Christian." But to those who want to call us a cult and say that we aren't Christians, I want to make it perfectly clear that it is they who are not Christians. Only one church on earth teaches true Christianity, and it isn't the anti-Mormons or the traditional Christians that support them in their work. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Muslim Extremists
I'm forwarding this from another list. I thought it was pretty funny in a morbid sort of way. --- Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following Multiple Choice test. (The events are actual cuts from past history. They actually happened! Do you remember?) 1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by: a. Olga Corbitt b. Sitting Bull c. Arnold Schwartzeneger d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by: a. Lost Norwegians b. Elvis c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40. 3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by: a. John Dillinger b. The King of Sweden c. The Boy Scouts d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by: a. A pizza delivery boy b. Pee Wee Herman c. Geraldo Rivera d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by: a. The Smurfs b. Davy Jones c. The Little Mermaid d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by: a. Captain Kid b. Charles Lindberg c. Mother Teresa d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by: a. Scooby Doo b. The Tooth Fairy c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by: a. Richard Simmons b. Grandma Moses c. Michael Jordan d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by: a. Mr. Rogers b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems c. The World Wrestling Federation d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by: a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd b. The Supreme Court of Florida c. Mr. Bean d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against: a. Enron b. The Lutheran Church c. The NFL d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by: a. Bonny and Clyde b. Captain Kangaroo c. Billy Graham d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 Nope, .I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly muslim raghead fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year-old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning former Governors. \\\ To unsubscribe, send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
At 08:37 12/5/2002 -0900, BLT scares us all: --- Mark Gregson --- Joseph Smith had the vision in 1836 in the Kirtland temple. In the vision he saw his father, mother and Alvin in the celestial kingdom. However, his father and mother were still alive when Joseph Smith had the vision. Therefore, the vision was of the future, after Alvin's temple work would have been completed. No one enters the Celestial Kingdom without baptism if they die after reaching the age of accountability. In my view, Mark is right. And Gary is still determined to avoid that fact that hell, whatever that means, is going to be a crowded place since "few" will find the narrow way that leads to life. Oh, man, I HATE crowds. Guess I'd better get busy. Till the scurrying // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
--- Gary Smith --- Regardless, in 1836 when the revelation was given, Alvin still had not been baptized, but was considered by God good enough to be in a vision of the Celestial Kingdom. This tells me that the man was accepted as a 'true' Christian. --- Mark Gregson --- Joseph Smith had the vision in 1836 in the Kirtland temple. In the vision he saw his father, mother and Alvin in the celestial kingdom. However, his father and mother were still alive when Joseph Smith had the vision. Therefore, the vision was of the future, after Alvin's temple work would have been completed. No one enters the Celestial Kingdom without baptism if they die after reaching the age of accountability. In my view, Mark is right. And Gary is still determined to avoid that fact that hell, whatever that means, is going to be a crowded place since "few" will find the narrow way that leads to life. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
> Regardless, in 1836 when the revelation was given, Alvin still had not > been baptized, but was considered by God good enough to be in a vision of > the Celestial Kingdom. This tells me that the man was accepted as a > 'true' Christian. I have no idea what God condsiders a true Christian (or rather, how "true" one has to be before one is "true enough"). Alvin was clearly a very good man. He believed Joseph Smith and encouraged him. Nonetheless your logic does not follow. The vision was of the future. If you saw a currently wicked person in a vision in the Celestial Kingdom would you say that they were a sufficiently good Christian? No, you would say that the person will repent sometime in the future and thus be admitted. Clearly, what Joseph Smith saw coupled with other revelation shows that Alvin would be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom because he was righteous _and_ someone would do his temple work. What do we know about being a true Christian? Not much, really, because God has never revealed any definition for "true Christian". He has given the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom, however, and if you want that to be your definition of "true" then fine. It doesn't mean that one is perfectly keeping all the commandments here in this life. By the revealed requirements in D&C 76 and elsewhere, there are probably very many living now who qualify. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: So, until you get your eating habit under control, you aren't following the D&C, and this means you aren't a true Christian because you aren't following the prophets? I definitely wouldn't be considered one under your definition, either, since there are many things I struggle with and do not follow perfectly. JWR: > A Christian, by my definition, is one who follows Christ. And since it is impossible to follow Christ without following those whom Christ has sent to lead, namely President Hinckley, all nonmembers and many members do not qualify as true Christians. --JWR Here you are committing two errors in your logic. First, you are taking my position to an extreme that I never intended. Second, you are setting up a straw man in doing so by assuming something that I never said. I never said that a person had to follow the prophets perfectly to be a true Christian. When a person rejects the authorized messengers whom the Savior has sent, he is rejecting the Savior. It is the same. Who are these authorize messengers? I speak of our missionaries, prophets and apostles. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "A liberal in the Church is merely one who does not have a testimony." --President Harold B. Lee === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Two Towers
Gary Smith wrote: > The only one I'm aware of is the Back to the Future Series. Episodes 2 > and 3 were made simultaneously. However, they aren't as complicated as > the LOTR, and they only did two episodes at once, not all three. Same thing with *the Three Musketeers* and *the Four Musketeers* which were shot simultaneously (though further shooting was later accomplished, and lots of remixing). Superman 1 & 2 (really 4 & 5 since there were three Superman movies in the 1940s & 1950s, but I digress) were shot simultaneously, but then the Saalkinds fired Richard Donner and Richard Lester reshot most of Superman 2, making it more comical. (Did the Saalkinds have a policy of hiring only directors named "Richard"?) *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] True Christians
Gary Smith wrote: > So, until you get your eating habit under control, you aren't following > the D&C, and this means you aren't a true Christian because you aren't > following the prophets? I definitely wouldn't be considered one under > your definition, either, since there are many things I struggle with and > do not follow perfectly. I didn't see anything in John's definition indicating a true Christian follows Christ and those he sends PERFECTLY. By definition, a Christian is a sinner in need of repentance -- but is a person who recognizes their imperiled condition and admits it. But a true Christian DOES need to follow Christ, no matter how weakly or how often he/she falls down and has to be helped up again. A not-so-true Christian would profess to follow Christ and then not even try to follow him or those he sends. A not-so-true would even reject many of the words of Christ, ignoring those which are too difficult for whatever reason. A not-so-true (I may have coined a new and useful term here) would certainly be more concerned about social pressures than about following the fullness of the gospel. Here's a wonderful example: my mother-in-law is one of the most wonderful people God ever sent to Earth. She has suffered much (mostly due to here LOUSY choices in husbands) and has given much. She has a firm belief in the Book of Mormon and a testimony that his church is true. But for the past 12 years, she has not joined the church. Initially, it was because her then-husband threatened her and the bishop with his pistol. Since then, it's been because it would be bad for business, her other daughter (Cherie's sister) would have a hard time with it, etc, etc, etc. Ma certainly loves Christ. But she doesn't love him enough to sacrifice All Things. Does this make her a Christian who avoids hard doctrine (as many did who fell away from Jesus when he preached hard doctrine)? Does this make her a not-so-true Christian? What about Latter-day Saints who are not willing to sacrifice All Things? What if Abraham had not been willing to sacrifice All Things? It's tough, this "following Christ" thing. Even his apostles kept falling asleep on the job. And I really can't see how one can follow Christ and reject him when his teachings get too tough and still consider oneself a Christian. But I don't have to figure that out (though it puzzles me) because that's NOT MY JOB. I have too much concern about following him myself, and following whenever I come across hard doctrine which requires sacrifice or which I don't understand. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] When a Girl Marries
Jon Spencer wrote: > Now this really IS wonderful. Thanks for a great start to my day (well, > I > taught seminary today, so a great continuation!). And I don't see any > flames. > > Jon Thank you, Jon. We're still kinda floating around in clouds from it all. Just for grins, I wonder if anyone here is old enough to recognize the source for our subject line? *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
