[ZION] another approach
I do not know if this idea has any merit, but wanted to get your opinions. granted, it may not hold water with some of our faith, and probably less water with those who are not of our persuasion or are secular in their orientation. perhaps we are taking the wrong approach in determining what is consitutional/not constitutional in this current debate over same sex marriage. maybe a better approach would be to ask if the Church supports the particular item or not. would it be correct/valid to say that if the church supports a matter regarding the law of the land, then that particular item is also constitutional? Bob Taylor ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Testing legality
Hello, Jim thanks for your response. evidently age and education have not sharpened my writing skills very much. everything you stated was/is true-- historically, the Church has not fared well in the hands of the U.S. legal system. However, I was asking the opposite question: would it be correct/valid to say that if the church supports a matter regarding the law of the land, then that particular item is also constitutional? I hope this makes my question a bit more clear. Bob Taylor In my view, the restoration has a poor record of success when it comes to testing the laws of the land in court. For more than 150 years it has been a dismal and discouraging effort for the saints of God to importune the courts for redress. In legal matters regarding everything from trivial personal harassment lawsuits against Joseph Smith, on up to the testing of the constitutionality of federal anti-polygamy laws, the church has waged and consistently lost many important legal battles through the courts at every level. Having personally sustained my own significant trauma at the handling of the courts, I shrink from the very suggestion that we might obtain any kind of satisfying judgement in the several legal matters currently concerning the general body of the church. But, notwithstanding my own reticence, and even in the face of confusion within the ranks regarding these matters, we are clearly obligated to follow the consistent counsel of the brethren in this matter. The saints have always been instructed to make every effort to work within the law. We believe in honoring and sustaining the law of the land. In many instances throughout church history, church members have been horribly abused at the hands of the system which should have protected them. Yet they always continued to press for justice and sound judgement. I can see no other alternative. In the case of the assault on marriage laws, I honestly believe it may be a futile effort. But we ought to follow the example set by our stalwart predecessors, in exhausting every recourse to obtain legal settlement of the current issues. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] another approach
Jim-- thank you for articulating what I was trying to say. perhaps if I hang out more with the members of Zion, some of that may rub off on me. Bob Taylor Bob, I do see your point about constitutionality. It is an interesting idea. If I understand correctly, you are imagining what would result if we begin from an axiomatic assumption that church doctrines reflect the true constitutional ideal, and we might use this standard for judging whether laws are constitutionally sound. I think your suggestion basically meshes with my own thinking on such matters. It is far more important to me to consider the counsel of prophets of God, in deliberating on of matters of justice. It truly seems like things would be a lot different if there were enough judges who applied this kind of vision and discernment. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Defend Marriage Petition, more information, installment 2
I have not followed the issue in detail over the past years as you evidently have, so I am not very well informed. what I can tell you though, is that a reporters job is to make sure that the story can stand alone, , unless the srticle indicates it is part of a series. Proctors comments about the information being buried, in my opinion, are valid. we sure do not hear any comments about this study from main stream news sources in our area. respectfully Bob Taylor What it indicates, Bob, is that Ms. Proctor is a half-baked reporter herself. -Original Message- From: Rusty Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Defend Marriage Petition, more information, installment 2 Dear Zionistas-- here's a follow up to my initial transmission http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040303more.html Bob Taylor Dear Zionistas this article, while supplying no really new information, certainly confirms my previous suspicions regarding the printed media in our country. while this does not necessarily indicate a media conspiracy, I would say it indicates they at least think alike on this particular topic. http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040301press.html Last week two long-anticipated studies were released on the sexual abuse scandal that has plagued the Catholic Church, and it is hard to believe that the reporters from the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, and the Washington Times were at the same press conference, because they certainly didnt get the same story. By Maurine Jensen Proctor Bob Taylor *** *** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown *** *** /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://lists.topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.b6crSN.cnJ0YXls Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^- --- * * There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown * * / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Defend Marriage Petition, more information, installment 2
Dear Zionistas-- here's a follow up to my initial transmission http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040303more.html Bob Taylor Dear Zionistas this article, while supplying no really new information, certainly confirms my previous suspicions regarding the printed media in our country. while this does not necessarily indicate a media conspiracy, I would say it indicates they at least think alike on this particular topic. http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040301press.html Last week two long-anticipated studies were released on the sexual abuse scandal that has plagued the Catholic Church, and it is hard to believe that the reporters from the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, and the Washington Times were at the same press conference, because they certainly didnt get the same story. By Maurine Jensen Proctor Bob Taylor ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://lists.topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.b6crSN.cnJ0YXls Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^ ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Small World of the Church
Valerie-- what a great story! I think this would make a great thread-- The Small World of the Church. To start things off, here's one that just happened in our family. Our oldest son, Chuck, is serving in the Tennessee Nashville Mission and was just transfered to Clarksville TN where he got a new companion and participated in a transfer conference. Flashback; for several years some of our early morning seminary classes were held in the teachers home. my wife would help by picking up kids and taking them to the teachers home (this was before she launched her seminary teaching career). One young man, who was not especially active, needed a ride, so my wife would leave extra early to get him because he lived out of the way. The teacher specifically asked my wife to pick him up, because he probably would not make the class. There were days, when Alan would not be ready, or was sleeping in, sometimes a couple of days in a row, when my wife would wonder-- what am I doing this for, he doesn't care about seminary. After that year the boy moved back with his family and we lost contact with him. back to transfer conference; in my sons own words I got my new comp yesterday. His name is Elder Klienman. But wait, yesterday at the transfer meeting in nashville you will never guess who I saw. Go ahead guess... I ran into Elder Drone!!! You remember him? Remember Allen that we took to seminary and stuff?? He is in MY MISSION It was so crazy when we saw each other. I still cant believe it. He has been out for about 13 or so months. It was awesome!!! it is indeed a much smaller world when you are a member of the Lords Church. anyone else want to volunteer a story? Bob Rusty Taylor ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Does anyone know?
Cousin Bill-- I know very little about Rugby and how it compares with soccer or American Football. My Dad played Rugby when in college, upset a player on the opposing team and got smacked in the nose for irritating the player. I put Rugby in the same arena as soccer for the demands it makes on the players. Bob Taylor At 09:14 AM 11/14/2003 +0900, Cousin Bill wrote: I mean, it isn't like we're talking about a real sport like . Rugby? Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Good Feelings
John all the others on this list I too hope good feelings can always be maintained on ZION. I will be the first to admit that good feelings are hard to deal with when your medium is the printed word. I have had more than my share of apologizing to people upset thru e-mails I sent which were not carefully thought out or proof read before sending. the term rip roaring discussion causes me some concern-- I favor the approach we always shared with our kids-- if you are having a good time, stop to make sure that everyone else is having a good time also. Bob Taylor One of the things I love about the Zion list is the feeling that we are all good friend even though we disagree about a lot of things. Even Marc Schindler, who was as close to a Marxist as I ever met on this list argued with me and the rest of us as if he felt a deep affection for us. Wouldn't you agree. I really hope that as we slam Ron Scott, and get slammed in return, we can all keep some good feelings towards each other. We don't have to dislike someone just because he disagrees with us. I'm sure there is a lot that we can do to engender good feelings on the list and still have a rip-roaring discussion, aren't you? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Soccer Rules!
Soccer in my personal opinion requires a lot more of everything than almost any other sport, and with all due respect to foot ball fans, there is no comparison between the two in terms of the physical and mental demands-- soccer wins easily; foot ball-- the players get to take all sorts of breaks. soccer-- you run the whole time, 45 minute? halves and don't have the benefit of protective padding like our football players do. if you can't crawl off the field due to an injury, they will stop the game long enough to get you out of the way, and then it's back to the game :) while it is true that normal size people can play soccer- for example, i was chief bench warmer on my college team- to make any headway in the sport, you have to be good. the rest of the world plays soccer like we play baseball-- they are crazy about it. a few months ago we had a demonstration womanes game (I think) here in Seattle-- people flew in from Europe by the 1000's to see the game, and it was not even a league game ! if you really want to drive dull nails into your head-- well, that's your choice, but personally, I find soccer a lot more fun to watch than baseball or football. instead of nails, try flaming bamboo splinters under your fingernails :) just my opinion. Bob Taylor From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't feel the way you do about football, soccer and baseball. Professional football in this country cannot be played by ordinary people. They have to be giants. It is the same way with basketball: the best players are virtually freaks. But normal sized people can play soccer. -- Exactly my point. Soccer is a wimpy sport that anyone can play. Well, almost anyone. I'm so wimpy I probably couldn't play it. -- As for baseball, well... when my kids all got stuck out in right field while the coaches kid got to be pitcher I learned that baseball, softball actually, wasn't much of a sport except for a favored few. When I put my kids in soccer they all got to play their guts out every minute that they were in good enough shape to play. -- Grampa Bill never let any of us kids play sports. He thought that we wouldn't study if we were playing. I guess I showed him. I didn't study anyway. :-) At the time I wasn't too concerned about not playing sports, but now I wish I had done something. I will admit that those who play soccer seem to have a good time. I personally don't see how you can call it shooting when the kicked ball goes no where near the goal. So I will grant you a point on soccer perhaps being a fun game to play. But I think I would rather drive dull nails into my temples than to have to sit through watching a soccer match. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
I'm a lawful good elf fighter. Ha! I said I didn't like lawyers, but I guess I got lawful because I choose justice. I'm not a DD player, but I do play Magic the Gathering, much to my husband's chagrin. My boys got me going. My favorite creatures are elves - I love elf decks, even though they aren't the best or strongest. What an interesting survey. Rusty And I'm a Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf Bard. . . val On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:41:29 +0900 Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: New thread attempt number 2. The topic of Dungeons and Dragons has come up before. Someone forwarded this to me, so I thought I would forward it to you guys. If you've never played DD then you might not understand what you come out as. But this link shows you what alignment, race, and class you would be. http://twinrose.net/dandchar.php It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. I don't know but what it picked me out pretty well. Give it a try. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Tom wrote--- The development of the church was leapfrogged a hundred years by polygamy. In my completely unverifiable opinion. does anyone on the list have some figures for the actual number of menb that were practicing polygamy, versus the total number of marriage age men in the church during that time? Unless that's what the Lord decrees, in which case it's just the way it is. However I have no sense of it coming back, certainly no desire to see it. But I am curious how we are going to square the circle of proselyting those corners of the world where it is in good standing. just my opinion-- just because the practice may be legal in a country does not mean that the church will authorize its members in that country to follow the practice. not exactly comparable, but I recall President Hinckley, in a Priesthood meeting, telling the brethren that when you join the church, you leave behind (are supposed to) any customs or practices that are not in keeping with church doctrine. Bob Taylor ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
John-- I have to take exception to your comments, and need to ponder this passage of scripture a bit more, for neither fit my experience with my previous church. the Presbyterian Church did nothing but prepare me to accept the fullness of the Gospel when I heard it. maybe I was not diligent enough to merit being exposed to their opposition to the LDS Church? maybe too young to recognize lies and deceit when I heard it? or any number of other things, but the bottom line is that they lined me up to accept the fullness of the Gospel. what's wrong with that? Bob Taylor Esperanza and I were reading the Book of Mormon this evening and I came upon a chapter that just doesn't seem to harmonize with current list and Church attitudes towards other churches. Aren't we supposed to liken the scriptures unto ourselves? Sometimes it is pretty hard. --- 2 Nephi Chapter 28 Many false churches shall be built up in the last days---They shall teach false and vain and foolish doctrines---Apostasy shall abound because of false teachers---The devil shall rage in the hearts of men---He shall teach all manner of false doctrines. [...] 3. For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's' and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--- [...] 9. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10. And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. 11. Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. --- I understood all of this when I left the Baptist Church. That is why I became a Mormon. But today if I say anything like the Lord is saying in this chapter of 2 Nephi, I get a big argument and someone invariably starts talking about how these other churches prepare people for our missionaries. Well, I don't see it that way. These other churches are the whole reason there was a Great Apostasy in the first place. These false churches are the only reason there was any need for a Restoration. They don't prepare others for membership in our Church, except possibly by setting a bad example, one to be avoided by converting to Mormonism. They do the very best they can to prepare their members to slam their doors in our faces when our missionaries come knocking. Where have I gone wrong? Why can't I get all luvy-duvy towards these other churches the way so many of my fellow saints are? Why does 2 Nephi 28 seem so true to me and all the go along to get along talk that I hear among my fellow saints sounds so much like a slick politician that wants everybody to like him? I'm sick of hearing about how much truth there is in these other churches. I want to hear someone call them what they are: false churches. That is what the Book of Mormon calls them. Hate the sin and love the sinner. I understand that. But why do I have to be accepting of a false church in order to be loving towards its deluded, lied to, and oppressed members? I can love a Catholic without loving his church. The same goes for a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Buddhist or Moslem. Reading 2 Nephi 28 and then reading these Internet email discussion lists, Zion included, causes me considerable cognitive dissonance. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
Paul-- your posting should certainly liven up things on Zion for a while :) I am not very articulate, and certainly am not a scriptorian. that said, here's my take on your comment. the two churches are still here, but I think you are mistaken in stating that the LDS position has changed. we still hold to the same doctrine that we always have taught. President Hinckley, from the start has encouraged all of us, and led out by example, to befriend those not of our faith in as many ways as possible. I think that what President Hinckley is trying to demonstrate to us is that it is possible to adhere to your own doctrine, and still be helpful and friendly to those not of our faith. I will leave the doctrinal discussion to others. looking forward to the pending discussion. Bob Taylor The Catholics are using the Mormon building for their own release time seminary per Church News article. I'm sure the relationship between the LDS and Catholic church will grow and strengthen because of things like this. I'm hoping that it will put us on a road of mutual respect and appreciation that will last for a long time until the future. What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
When I first heard of this incident, my gut reaction was anger and disgust at the streetpreachers. However, as I thought of it, I told Bob that what should be done at the next Conference (figuring that they will be there again, being offensive again) is everyone going to Conference should buy a single flower - one per person - and tape a message to the stem, saying, The Lord loves you.. Then, walk by these people on purpose and lay the flower at their feet and smile sweetly at them. Can you imagine these people with mound of tens of thousands of flowers around them?! Let them be the irrational ones. Let us rise above it and be the examples of Christ. That would be something to take a picture of, wouldn't it? I don't know if the media would pick it up, but one can only hope. Even if they didn't, it would be very satisfying to know that we didn't descend to their level. And, as has been noted, the Lord will deal with them in His own time. We just need to be patient enough to let Him do that. As offensive as it is to see someone desecrating temple garments, the garments themselves aren't what is sacred - they are a symbol of our devotion to God. But they only have any real significance when actually worn by someone that is true to the covenants made with God. Rusty Well, here I might agree with you. If your going to do it, a full swing with a large print quad in a tote would do a lot of damage, and might be worth it. It might make them think twice before doing their disgusting thing. On the other hand, I think that what should happen at the next conference is for everyone who passes - I mean EVERYONE - to stop, smile, say hello, shake their hand, pat their back, etc. NOTHING in this world would irritate them more than this. Can you say apoplectic stroke??? I knew you could! Jon ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] off-topic, entertainment center
this is off topic, but Zion has been such a great resource, I would appreciate your help on this item. please respond off-list so this does not clutter up the discussions. our existing stereo system (tuner, speakers, tape deck) is almost 20 years old and we would like to get a new set-up. we would appreciate suggestions for catalogs or stores we might contact as we research this subject. thank you Bob Taylor ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
Dear fellow Zioners-- with all these postings about breaking the charter?-- have we broken it yet? Bob Taylor Well, here I might agree with you. If your going to do it, a full swing with a large print quad in a tote would do a lot of damage, and might be worth it. It might make them think twice before doing their disgusting thing. On the other hand, I think that what should happen at the next conference is for everyone who passes - I mean EVERYONE - to stop, smile, say hello, shake their hand, pat their back, etc. NOTHING in this world would irritate them more than this. Can you say apoplectic stroke??? I knew you could! Jon - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter? Jon Spencer wrote: In the US, their actions are protected speech. While the actions of the two members in response to this provocation are understandable from an emotional point of view, the members who took the garments away probably exercised poor judgment. We are not a people of martyrs. We have endured many things and hope to endure all things. In my opinion, there are many better ways to spend one's time serving the Lord than dealing with a theft charge. I personally think an assault and battery charge would have been more appropriate. And one could wear the jail time as a badge of honor. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] One by Leo Tolstoy
I think Tolstoy was right on with that ocmment. sounds a lot like King Benjamins comments about serving. Bob Taylor I ran across this quote from Leo Tolstoy the other day. Rather than saying what I thought about it, I would like to put it out to the list and hear what you might have to say. It is within my power either to serve God or not to serve him. Serving him, I add to my own good, and the good of the whole world. Not serving him, I forfeit my own good, and deprive the world of that good, which was in my power to create. Leo Tolstoy Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] More Lists
Stacy-- just sign up for Scouts-L and Scouts-LDS list-serve on Yahoo-- that should more than meet your goals-- at least when I was on there I was getting about 50-100 postings per day. if that's not enough, sign up for the other Scouting related lists. Bob Taylor The DiabetesWorld list at Yahoo Groups generates 20 or 30 messages about twice a day. But we could easily get 50 to 100 posts a day on Zion. All you have to do is speak up for or against any particular candidate for any particular political office -- just as long as that particular candidate has strong opinions on any number of hot topics. Or we could just have another food fight. *jeep! ~~Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. Gus Segar via Popeye -- Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. I'm finding these days that Zion isn't listing enough traffic. I'd like to see a list that generates about 20 or 30 more messages. Where can I find such a list? Stacy. The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] How Do You Interpret Hymn 220 In The Light of Earthly ReligiousJu
you are refering to verse 2, Who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly?, yes? 1. Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk on judging, I wish I could provide an exact reference for his address. He stated we are all called upon all the time to make judgements. 2. the scriptures do not prohibit judgement, only unrighteous judgement. 3. Bishops and other church leaders, in my understanding, do not act as judges for themselves, but for the church. Bob Taylor As I was listening to this popular hymn I found myself wondering if it contradicts judgment which must automatically be made by bishops, stake Presidents and the like. What are your takes on this sort of thing? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown Mrs. Rusty Taylor - Poulsbo, WA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) website -- http://pacific.telebyte.com/~brtaylor/ ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo
More sophisticated? They like to think so, but they are just more worldly, and farther from the principles that lead to life. They will persecute us, using us (and other believers in Christ and Jews) as the scapegoats for the ills of the world. If only we would believe as they do, if only we would shed the archaic beliefs in some being beyond this world and understand that we just need to tolerate our differences and not hold to such a hardline doctrine, then we would understand that we can all achieve a higher level of being and of peace by working together... Of course, we know that this line will be a twisting of the truth and those who continue to hold onto the iron rod will be persecuted as the cause of so many problems. They will make special laws that WILL persecute us, despite their mantra of tolerance. They've done it before. They'll do it again. I believe we have seen the beginnings of this already. The pieces are being placed. Both sides (good and evil) have a master plan. But that doesn't matter. We only need to hold to the rod. ** For those of you who are long-time Zion members, you may remember me - Rusty Taylor. I've been on John's lists off and on since the beginning... anyone else remember the awesome cyber-food fights we had? Well, I've been teaching Seminary for the last 4 years and didn't have time to do that and be on this list. Now, I'm done for a while. I need a break. Our oldest son has left on his mission and our younger son will be a senior in high school this year. I want to spend more time with him before he goes on his mission. For those of you who don't know me - I joined the Church at 16 with my parents and younger 2 sisters (an older brother was away at college at the time and has never joined). We were baptized at the Joseph Smith Memorial in Sharon, VT. I went to school at BYU and went on a mission to Sapporo, Japan. Then I met my husband, Bob - we got married, moved to Alaska and ended up in Kotzebue. That's where we met John and Esperanza. After 6 years and adopting our sons, we moved back to the lower 48, and have lived on the Kitsap Peninsula (across the Puget Sound from Seattle) ever since. I work for the local school district. I don't have a Church calling at the moment. I'm looking forward to being part of Zion, again. Yoroshiku onegai itashimasu! Sis. Rusty Persecution against the Saints does not have to assume the same form as those overt violent acts against the Church in the Nauvoo period. Even more hateful and vindictive injustice was weighed against the Church after it was established in the Rocky Mountains. The extent of the bureacratic and legalistic punishment of the Church by the US Government during that period is difficult to fathom. Such predations could easily be revisited in the near future. It seems that all the motivation required during the earlier period of anti-Mormon aggression was the manipulation of public sentiment by powerful people in high places. Are people any more sophisticated today? ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown Mrs. Rusty Taylor - Poulsbo, WA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) website -- http://pacific.telebyte.com/~brtaylor/ ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
