Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Devin Ceartas wrote: Yikes! Seriously, no sparse zones? That wasn't in the Bible book I don't think. This is a pretty big deal! Is this list the best place to follow to learn such things? Yes, this has been discussed on this alias in the past. Also, Dan Price blogged about this here: http://blogs.sun.com/dp/date/20080512 This is described in the OpenSolaris Bible on p. 732, second to last paragraph. Since software management for zones on OpenSolaris is still evolving, it would be helpful for us if you could describe what problems the lack of a sparse zone will cause you. Thanks, Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
gz wrote: Double Yiekes!!. All my customers use an SOE of sparce zones (With Solaris 10 of course) so if that is really the case it will be a problem for them to migrate to OpenSolaris if/when that becomes neccessary. Something like this could have serious concequences down the track and should be communicated to the field/customers real quick. This has been discussed here previously. What problems will it cause for your customers migration? The fact that there is no upgrade from S10 to OpenSolaris seems like it would be a bigger issue. We're looking at the solaris10 brand as one tool to aid with this, but of course those zones would also have to be whole-root. The solaris10 brand project does include support for p2v and v2v tools. Since the content of the next release of Solaris is nowhere near being finalized yet, it is premature to communicate anything to customers about what the final release will look like. Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
guess is that the memory sharing benefits of sparse zones are relatively small in most cases. May be I am wrong here, it seems that with sparse zone and single binary for all zone there must be same memory sharing!!! On 05/18/09 09:59, Jerry Jelinek wrote: Devin Ceartas wrote: The problems this may cause me are largely theoretical at this point, as I'm just beginning to ramp my OpenSolaris use up. My concern is conserving RAM, which full vs. sparse zones may or may not effect, I don't know, and with ease of management. My use case is running multiple instances of the same underlying web application for multiple clients. Keeping the core portions of the web app in common should help in maintaining it. Using sparse zones seemed like an easier solution than re-architecting the app to refactor the common parts into a webservices component. The webapp components are relatively small, so I'm not overly worried about storage space. Overall the idea of stable, secure containment which is lighter weight than full virtualization is attracting me to OpenSolaris, so I imagine it will be a win in efficiency regardless f the sparse/full question. Thanks for the write-up. It is helpful for us to know what peoples concerns are for the sparse vs. whole root configurations. As you point out, even with whole root zones, you do realize all of the other efficiencies of the zones model. I don't think we've collected any data on the memory sharing differences of sparse vs. whole root. It would depend on how many common pages there were across the zones. I think our guess is that the memory sharing benefits of sparse zones are relatively small in most cases. Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Hung-Sheng Tsao wrote: guess is that the memory sharing benefits of sparse zones are relatively small in most cases. May be I am wrong here, it seems that with sparse zone and single binary for all zone there must be same memory sharing!!! I don't know what single binary you are talking about. If all of the sparse zones are running the same applications then there would sharing. If they are running different applications or even running common apps at different times, then there would be little sharing. The core OS daemons would be shared, but that isn't going to account for much. Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
I don't know what single binary you are talking about. If all of the sparse zones are running the same applications then there would sharing. If they are running different applications or even running common apps at different times, then there would be little sharing. The core OS daemons would be shared, but that isn't going to account for much. And all libraries. Casper ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Jerry Jelinek gerald.jeli...@sun.com wrote: Thanks for the write-up. It is helpful for us to know what peoples concerns are for the sparse vs. whole root configurations. Our application make and destroy zones as needed. We've built up a set of tools to create, clone, and tear down zones. We're concerned more with how fast we can build one and move one, than in how much memory we're saving by sharing in-memory footprints. (At one time this was a point to be made but I don't think anyone ever made any measurement, I could be wrong.) To make ipkg zones, we'd have to have access to a repository or maintain a local one (to date I don't think anyone's done this yet, right? The default repo is still at a opensolaris.org space.) Machines behind air gaps may never be able to run OS, and if they do, we'd have a harder time making zones on the fly for them. 1. ipkg zones take longer to build 2. and require an internet connection CT -- http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430218916 --- Pro OpenSolaris - The breakfast of champions. ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Steffen Weiberle wrote: I have been doing all on Solaris next testing using Nevada, as all the tools I know work, and my understanding of installation and configuration applies to that as well as Solaris 10. Now I am playing with 2009.06 and some 'simple' things don't work as expected. I couldn't copy a sysidcfg file into zonepath/root/etc/ as that is no longer mounted after an install. The 'correct' operation is to detach a newly created zone, copy the file in, and attach. I was surprised how long the attach took! Scripts will definitely have to change. This is tracked as: 3979 zone fs only available from Global zone, when zone is booted You can ready the zone to workaround this for now. Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Christine Tran wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Jerry Jelinek gerald.jeli...@sun.com wrote: Thanks for the write-up. It is helpful for us to know what peoples concerns are for the sparse vs. whole root configurations. Our application make and destroy zones as needed. We've built up a set of tools to create, clone, and tear down zones. We're concerned more with how fast we can build one and move one, than in how much memory we're saving by sharing in-memory footprints. (At one time this was a point to be made but I don't think anyone ever made any measurement, I could be wrong.) To make ipkg zones, we'd have to have access to a repository or maintain a local one (to date I don't think anyone's done this yet, right? The default repo is still at a opensolaris.org space.) Machines behind air gaps may never be able to run OS, and if they do, we'd have a harder time making zones on the fly for them. 1. ipkg zones take longer to build 2. and require an internet connection Installing from a repo is orthogonal to the sparse vs. whole root discussion. That is tracked as: 1947 Offline zone creation is impossible If you want to install zones quickly you should be using cloning. That would also solve the offline issue. I don't think anyone ever thought installing a zone with SVr4 pkging was fast. It is important to remember that zones on OpenSolaris are a work in progress. What we have now is not what the final implementation will look like. For sparse zones, that is totally up to IPS. If IPS doesn't support sparse zones, then we won't be able to do that on OpenSolaris. However, there are many different reasons to use sparse zones, memory, disk space, security, etc., and we can probably solve all of those needs using other techniques. For example ZFS deduplication will bring a lot to whole-root zones on OpenSolaris. So, it is important for us to know what the real need is, and not simply fixate on sparse zones as the only solution. Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Installing from a repo is orthogonal to the sparse vs. whole root discussion. That is tracked as: 1947 Offline zone creation is impossible I'm not complaining, just describing what's important to me (and my shop) re:zones going forward. This thread started out as no sparse zone on OS, sorry to have interrupted. CT -- http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430218916 --- Pro OpenSolaris - The breakfast of champions. ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
On 05/18/09 11:31, Jerry Jelinek wrote: Steffen Weiberle wrote: I have been doing all on Solaris next testing using Nevada, as all the tools I know work, and my understanding of installation and configuration applies to that as well as Solaris 10. Now I am playing with 2009.06 and some 'simple' things don't work as expected. I couldn't copy a sysidcfg file into zonepath/root/etc/ as that is no longer mounted after an install. The 'correct' operation is to detach a newly created zone, copy the file in, and attach. I was surprised how long the attach took! Scripts will definitely have to change. This is tracked as: 3979 zone fs only available from Global zone, when zone is booted You can ready the zone to workaround this for now. Just tried that by first 'sys-unconfig' in the zone, and that was much faster!! That seems like a good intermediate step between install and boot on configuring a new zone. I originally could only imagine the reason for not doing the mounts when the zone is not booted is to avoid a huge set of ZFS mounts for zones that are not running. However, I see three ZFS file systems for a zone, and this is without any Live Upgrade (beadm) operation. Two are legacy, so visible via 'zfs', yet not mounted. Now I guess this keeps the Solaris mount behavior similar to that in S10, only shows mounts for running zones (since zonepaths typically were within an existing UFS file system, and thus mountpoint). Steffen Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Steffen Weiberle wrote: I originally could only imagine the reason for not doing the mounts when the zone is not booted is to avoid a huge set of ZFS mounts for zones that are not running. However, I see three ZFS file systems for a zone, and this is without any Live Upgrade (beadm) operation. Two are legacy, so visible via 'zfs', yet not mounted. Now I guess this keeps the Solaris mount behavior similar to that in S10, only shows mounts for running zones (since zonepaths typically were within an existing UFS file system, and thus mountpoint). The reason that the zone's datasets are not mounted when the zone is halted is that these mounts are currently managed by the brand hooks. The eventual goal is to enable software management within the zone, just as you have in the global zone. That is, beadm should work, as should 'pkg image-update'. Thus, we must determine the correct dataset to mount at zone boot time. We do not currently have a brand hook to enable us mount the datasets when the system boots. Thus, we have to wait until the zone is first booted. We could leave the dataset mounted after you halt the zone but that might not be the same dataset that will be mounted the next time the zone boots. We need to add a bit more brand infrastructure for this plus improve the existing hooks to make this cleaner. Jerry ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Exactly the question I'm trying to answer. My current solution is multiple OpenBSD instanced in VMWare, and it works great, just wish I could get more instances per physical host. - devin On May 18, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Peter Tribble wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Jerry Jelinek gerald.jeli...@sun.com wrote: Since software management for zones on OpenSolaris is still evolving, it would be helpful for us if you could describe what problems the lack of a sparse zone will cause you. Solaris 10 with sparse root zones provides an excellent virtualization solution. If you want systems that are largely identical (but perhaps with different applications) then it's pretty much optimal, and very resource efficient. The key advantage of using sparse-root is that there's only one OS to manage. With whole-root zones, and other heavier solutions, there's an extra OS image to manage with each virtual system. From an admin perspective, whole- root zones offer no real advantage over xen/vmware, and while I would (and do) run sparse-root zones extensively, I would run Xen or VMware rather than whole-root zones, as they have other capabilities you can leverage. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Solaris 10 with sparse root zones provides an excellent virtualization solution. If you want systems that are largely identical (but perhaps with different applications) then it's pretty much optimal, and very resource efficient. Agreed. The most efficient form of application stacking with complete isolation. The key advantage of using sparse-root is that there's only one OS to manage. That's true in a very large degree to both sparse and whole root zones. The most attractive features of sparse root zones is - trojan horse protection against inherit-pkg-dirs - smaller in size which means you have less to sling around - upgrade on attach covers more (if not all) of the packages - smaller memory footprint due to library sharing - quicker to maintain (less moving parts) If you are not using ZFS then they are faster to install and remove. With whole-root zones, and other heavier solutions, there's an extra OS image to manage with each virtual system I think you are over estimating the heft of a whole root zone a bit. It's not a complete system image and there aren't that many more things to consider than a sparse root zone. The variability of packing and patching is about it. Everything else is the same. Slightly larger memory footprint which may or may not matter in your environment. Some of the additional girth can be offset by using ZFS and cloning. When ZFS gets dedup it will be very welcome in these environments. From an admin perspective, whole-root zones offer no real advantage over xen/vmware, and while I would (and do) run sparse-root zones extensively, I would run Xen or VMware rather than whole-root zones, as they have other capabilities you can leverage. The decision point between whole and sparse root zones is whether or not the application writes can be contained in a few directories rather than spraying all over /usr. If it is a manageable number (which should be most of the cases), sparse is the way to go. If not then try to figure out how to constrain the directories the apps write to, and then punt to whole root. VMs like Xen, VMware and LDOMs do one thing, zones do another. Nothing prevents you from combining them to get the best of both worlds. A lot of folks miss this point because their application OS doesn't have application isolation capabilities like zones and think VMs are the answer. They are part of an answer. Bob ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Devin Ceartas wrote: Is it possible to install into root zone and just have individual config files in several sparse zones for different instances of Apache, MySQL? yes, opensolaris put amp binary in /usr/apacheY /usr/mysql /usr/php etc but the configuration files and htdocs are in /etc/ or /var etc. if U use the blastware.org then all pkgs are install under /opt/csw If U use coolstack 1.3.1 then all pkgs are installed under /opt/coolstack for web stack 1.4 https://cds.sun.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/CDS-CDS_SMI-Site/en_US/-/USD/viewproductdetail-start?productref=web-stack-1.4-oth-...@cds-cds_smi all under /opt/webstack please see this link for MySql in solaris containers http://wikis.sun.com/display/BluePrints/Running+MySQL+Database+in+Solaris+Containers some example of apache in zone http://it.toolbox.com/wiki/index.php/Creation_of_sample_zone_in_Solaris_for_hosting_apache -- devin On May 16, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Julien Beauviala wrote: Hello, Installing the AMP stack (as in `pfexec pkg install AMP`) in a sparse zone (osol 111a) will fail, because /usr isn't available. Is there a way get around that, short of compiling everything by hand to some other place within the sparse zone ? Thanks. j. ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org begin:vcard fn:Dr. Hung-Sheng Tsao (LaoTsao) n:Tsao;Hung-Sheng org:GEH;GEH NE US adr:;;400 Atrium DR;somerset;nj;08873;usa email;internet:hung-sheng.t...@sun.com title:Sr SE tel;work:18773190460 tel;fax:18773190460 tel;cell:9734950840 note;quoted-printable:grid-aces=0D=0A= cluster-aces=0D=0A= TS AMB=0D=0A= blade_expert url:http://blogs.sun.com/hstsao version:2.1 end:vcard ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Yikes! Seriously, no sparse zones? That wasn't in the Bible book I don't think. This is a pretty big deal! Is this list the best place to follow to learn such things? -- devin On May 17, 2009, at 11:50 PM, Dan Price wrote: On Sat 16 May 2009 at 07:02PM, Julien Beauviala wrote: Hello, Installing the AMP stack (as in `pfexec pkg install AMP`) in a sparse zone (osol 111a) will fail, because /usr isn't available. Is there a way get around that, short of compiling everything by hand to some other place within the sparse zone ? Julien, At present we don't support sparse zones in OpenSolaris. So in the short term, at least, we've tried to ensure that zones are relatively compact by default. Unlike the whole-root zones in Nevada, a default, whole-root zone in 2009.06 is just about 140MB, regardless of the contents of the global zone. That said, the software will allow you to configure sparse zones, and won't warn you that this is generally a bad idea right now-- that's my fault, and I apologize. You're seeing the effects of OpenSolaris existing as a derivative of Nevada, but with significant changes. As a result, things are rough at some of the edges. I would recommend that you install the default zone (which is whole root) and simply add your AMP stack to that. Everything should work smoothly, and if not, please let us know. -dp -- Daniel Price, Solaris Kernel Engineeringhttp://blogs.sun.com/dp ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Double Yiekes!!. All my customers use an SOE of sparce zones (With Solaris 10 of course) so if that is really the case it will be a problem for them to migrate to OpenSolaris if/when that becomes neccessary. Something like this could have serious concequences down the track and should be communicated to the field/customers real quick. gz Devin Ceartas wrote: Yikes! Seriously, no sparse zones? That wasn't in the Bible book I don't think. This is a pretty big deal! Is this list the best place to follow to learn such things? -- devin On May 17, 2009, at 11:50 PM, Dan Price wrote: On Sat 16 May 2009 at 07:02PM, Julien Beauviala wrote: Hello, Installing the AMP stack (as in `pfexec pkg install AMP`) in a sparse zone (osol 111a) will fail, because /usr isn't available. Is there a way get around that, short of compiling everything by hand to some other place within the sparse zone ? Julien, At present we don't support sparse zones in OpenSolaris. So in the short term, at least, we've tried to ensure that zones are relatively compact by default. Unlike the whole-root zones in Nevada, a default, whole-root zone in 2009.06 is just about 140MB, regardless of the contents of the global zone. That said, the software will allow you to configure sparse zones, and won't warn you that this is generally a bad idea right now-- that's my fault, and I apologize. You're seeing the effects of OpenSolaris existing as a derivative of Nevada, but with significant changes. As a result, things are rough at some of the edges. I would recommend that you install the default zone (which is whole root) and simply add your AMP stack to that. Everything should work smoothly, and if not, please let us know. -dp -- Daniel Price, Solaris Kernel Engineeringhttp://blogs.sun.com/dp ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org -- | George Zisis | Ph: +61 2 9466 9445 | | Senior Systems Engineer | FAX: +61 2 9466 9410| | Sun Microsystems Australia | email: g...@sun.com | | Web http://11gz.com , Http://nasdev.com http://blogs.sun.com | ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
[zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Hello, Installing the AMP stack (as in `pfexec pkg install AMP`) in a sparse zone (osol 111a) will fail, because /usr isn't available. Is there a way get around that, short of compiling everything by hand to some other place within the sparse zone ? Thanks. j. ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [zones-discuss] pkg install AMP in a sparse zone
Is it possible to install into root zone and just have individual config files in several sparse zones for different instances of Apache, MySQL? -- devin On May 16, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Julien Beauviala wrote: Hello, Installing the AMP stack (as in `pfexec pkg install AMP`) in a sparse zone (osol 111a) will fail, because /usr isn't available. Is there a way get around that, short of compiling everything by hand to some other place within the sparse zone ? Thanks. j. ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ zones-discuss mailing list zones-discuss@opensolaris.org
