Re: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
On 10 Feb 2009, at 17:57, Richard Smedley wrote: I'm suggesting 500 or 600 wholly new web apps, designed to cover the whole curriculum. A framework would be specified, and commissions given to *UK* developers - including bids from schools. Of course the EU won't let us do it, but there's probably a creative way to frame the tender process. After all, other countries manage. Mark Shuttleworth is developing a set of education material coursework that can be freely distributed. I met someone at the Over The Air event last year who had been working on it, based out of South Africa of course but intended for worldwide distribution. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
A postscript: Anyone interested in helping to improve the IT situation in schools (through FOSS) may be interested in membership of Schoolforge-UK. http://groups.google.com/group/sf-uk-discuss/about The website contains many case studies, and the (low traffic) mailing list a number of interesting threads on the subject. SF-UK is also involved in organising events such as FLOSSIE (Free Libre & Open Source Software in Education) - the next one takes place in July. Cheers, - Richard - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 23:15 +, Christopher Woods wrote: > different in its model, aiming itself as it does as a social enterprise for > the voluntary and educational sectors. How many schools do you serve in > your > locality? (just curious...) Your model obviously works exceptionally well > for what you do, but I wonder how big your client base is versus how big it > could potentially be if you supported every school in the area - you could > get very big, very fast, or the ground could open up for competition and > aside from lower costs to the end users, there might be an even greater > disparity in levels of support or the kinds of solutions delivered. As I said in the previous e-mail, school support doesn't scale well. We work through schools to reach families on the wrong side of the digital divide, and also to work with local community organisations, but don't bother offering IT support to the education market - it simply isn't worth it :-/ > > The model of maintaining individually-installed apps over > > several discrete PCs was all very well in the 80s, and > > possibly the 90s, but how long before schools catch up with > > the rest of the world. PCs in schools are mandated to teach > > curriculum areas - this can easily be delivered through 500 - > > 600 web apps. The whole curriculum. A small investment from > > government (less than 1% of the UK's annual school IT spend) > > would get all of these apps written. Released under the GNU > > GPL, they would be tweaked and improved by thousands of > > teachers and students. > > > > Given web apps, designed to work with standards-compliant > > browsers, it becomes irrelevant which platform is used to > > view them, save on grounds of cost and maintainability. The > > obvious choice then is LTSP. > > > Personal opinion: 95% of web apps just don't cut it. If you're talking > about I'm suggesting 500 or 600 wholly new web apps, designed to cover the whole curriculum. A framework would be specified, and commissions given to *UK* developers - including bids from schools. Of course the EU won't let us do it, but there's probably a creative way to frame the tender process. After all, other countries manage. > If I was a teacher I would hate it hate it hate it > if I couldn't teach a class because the main host server was bogged down > with too many intensive tasks, or it fell over or lagged out or needed > to be failed over for some reason. Look at some real world LTSP in schools. Skegness http://schoolforge.org.uk/index.php/Skegness_Grammar have multiple application servers, and seem to have experienced zero downtime so far. > to be desired. If I was speccing a school's IT, I don't think thin clients > would get much way past the first round of planning unless some incredibly > well-designed thin client solutions were brought to my attention (and then > you're talking equivalent prices for thin clients as you would for regular > MiniATX desktops). As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, thin clients have a long life (average 8 to 9 years). A point used by Sun in its sales - and the result can be seen in at least one high street bank, and many other large businesses. > I'm still personally very sceptical of thin client solutions, I don't think > their capabilities ar sufficient to satisfy all the potential uses for > educational machines. Music and video editing obviously need their own high-power PCs. > And I wouldn't like to have all that total reliance on > just a handful of extremely powerful servers; it's bad enough when the > Internet proxy server goes down or the network drive can't be accessed > because the Active Directory is having a fit, but to have a classful of > children sitting in front of dumb terminals when the primary host server > for that classroom's client machines goes down? Wuh oh. Last year Salford University moved its School of Computing to thin client - it's saved them no end of problems. Single-point-of-failure risks are easily addressed, but 100s of individual machines will always be a pain :-( In many (most?) of the school labs that I have visited, half of the (Windows) PCs are not working properly - e.g. CD tray will not open - due to creative play from the students (e.g. constantly opening and closing the tray). A malfunctioning PC is an expensive piece of junk. A broken thin client at Skegness Grammar goes in the recycling, and a new one comes out of the cupboard: 30 seconds later it's up and running. > There must be > some reason other than bloody-mindedness that makes schools keep on going > for full-PC solutions time after time though... When you don't know enough to make a purchasing decision, you just buy what everyone else does. Going any other way takes a brave Head Teacher, and Heads have enough on their plates. > I do aim to do more work in > the educational sector as my own business gets going in the next few years, > and I want to offer all kinds of viable solutions as long as they w
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 12:20, Neil Aberdeen wrote: Interesting as all these discussions are schools will have what's given to them and supported under BSF monoploy IT provision (see http://www.edugeek.net/wiki/index.php/List_of_awarded_ICT_contracts) unless there is resistance and/or failure (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7841850.stm) That only applies to England, not Scotland. It looks like Wales is devolved as well. So move to the North or the West :-) f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Interesting as all these discussions are schools will have what's given to them and supported under BSF monoploy IT provision (see http://www.edugeek.net/wiki/index.php/List_of_awarded_ICT_contracts) unless there is resistance and/or failure (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7841850.stm) Gareth Davis wrote: Something not being discussed, is that there can be any amount of take up of open source platforms within a school - you don't have to go 100%. Way back in my sixth form days (1996) between the Head of Learning Resources, a former student who was now at university and myself - we replaced the ageing Econet/SJ MDFS network with Ethernet and Slackware Linux fileservers over a period of several months. The Acorn Archimedes and Risc PC boxes all had Omniclient to NFS mount the Linux filestores, and the Win 3.1/95 PCs used Samba. The Linux boxes also provided the usual central network services such as DNS, DHCP, email and a proxy server to allow internet access. Later we managed to convince the local cable TV company to give us a 2Mbps/G703 circuit between us and the local university for next to nothing to replace the ISDN line coming out of one of the servers. With the central infrastructure changed it really didn't matter what the machines ran. At the time it made sense that the rooms teaching vocational courses used Windows OS and Microsoft applications, and other areas could continue to use the Acorn machines as the software was perfectly up to the job. If you could format a document in say, Impression Publisher on an Acorn, then using Microsoft Word or Wordperfect on a PC afterwards really wasn't a big learning curve. Although some of the Acorn Risc PCs did have Intel coprocessor cards so could run Windows 95 as well as Risc OS. Quite what they are using now I don't know, I expect Active Directory has made things a little more complicated to maintain the single sign on environment we had set up then. Things have moved on in the last 12 years, but I think if Acorn were still in existence then schools probably would still be using them, as the skills are transferable - and the machines are designed to be used in an classroom environment. But once they were no longer available schools had a choice, either bring in another platform to teach 'transferable skills' (Mac, or PC/Linux), or get the PC/Windows platform and teach the 'correct' skills first time. As has already been mentioned, the knowledge of the staff has to be taken into account so chances are PC/Windows was the comfortable choice. But schools have already made a transition away from Risc OS to Windows, so another transition may not be out of the question. IMHO if the Linux environment was as well developed as it is today when Acorn closed down, then I can see how a lot of schools could have moved straight across. As it was common practise to teach 'transferable skills' from a non Windows platform then. Now I think there would have to be some very clear cut benefits to convince schools and parents that it was a good idea. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
> -Original Message- > From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk > [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Richard Smedley > Sent: 09 February 2009 18:32 > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk > Subject: RE: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state > schools FOSS > PCs in schools are mandated to teach > curriculum areas - this can easily be delivered through 500 - > 600 web apps. The whole curriculum. A small investment from > government (less than 1% of the UK's annual school IT spend) > would get all of these apps written. Released under the GNU > GPL, they would be tweaked and improved by thousands of > teachers and students. > You mean like BBC Jam? Can't see how this idea wouldn't end up in the European Court for the same reasons. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Something not being discussed, is that there can be any amount of take up of open source platforms within a school - you don't have to go 100%. Way back in my sixth form days (1996) between the Head of Learning Resources, a former student who was now at university and myself - we replaced the ageing Econet/SJ MDFS network with Ethernet and Slackware Linux fileservers over a period of several months. The Acorn Archimedes and Risc PC boxes all had Omniclient to NFS mount the Linux filestores, and the Win 3.1/95 PCs used Samba. The Linux boxes also provided the usual central network services such as DNS, DHCP, email and a proxy server to allow internet access. Later we managed to convince the local cable TV company to give us a 2Mbps/G703 circuit between us and the local university for next to nothing to replace the ISDN line coming out of one of the servers. With the central infrastructure changed it really didn't matter what the machines ran. At the time it made sense that the rooms teaching vocational courses used Windows OS and Microsoft applications, and other areas could continue to use the Acorn machines as the software was perfectly up to the job. If you could format a document in say, Impression Publisher on an Acorn, then using Microsoft Word or Wordperfect on a PC afterwards really wasn't a big learning curve. Although some of the Acorn Risc PCs did have Intel coprocessor cards so could run Windows 95 as well as Risc OS. Quite what they are using now I don't know, I expect Active Directory has made things a little more complicated to maintain the single sign on environment we had set up then. Things have moved on in the last 12 years, but I think if Acorn were still in existence then schools probably would still be using them, as the skills are transferable - and the machines are designed to be used in an classroom environment. But once they were no longer available schools had a choice, either bring in another platform to teach 'transferable skills' (Mac, or PC/Linux), or get the PC/Windows platform and teach the 'correct' skills first time. As has already been mentioned, the knowledge of the staff has to be taken into account so chances are PC/Windows was the comfortable choice. But schools have already made a transition away from Risc OS to Windows, so another transition may not be out of the question. IMHO if the Linux environment was as well developed as it is today when Acorn closed down, then I can see how a lot of schools could have moved straight across. As it was common practise to teach 'transferable skills' from a non Windows platform then. Now I think there would have to be some very clear cut benefits to convince schools and parents that it was a good idea. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH > -Original Message- > From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk > [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mr I Forrester > Sent: 09 February 2009 14:24 > To: BBC Backstage > Subject: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used > in state schools free and open source > > Seen this in my mailbox a few times today, sure you will all > find this interesting... > > "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the > primary operating system used in state schools free and open source" > > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools/ > > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To > unsubscribe, please visit > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 10:41, Lee Stone wrote: Get office ultimate 2007 for £38.95 - I believe this is the second year they've done it now as I took advantage of it last year as a student. It certainly makes it a lot more affordable. That would mean running Windaes and me having to support it so no thanks :-) f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
If the home/school copy works out at £33 each, you might as well look at purchasing from www.theultimatesteal.com Get office ultimate 2007 for £38.95 - I believe this is the second year they've done it now as I took advantage of it last year as a student. It certainly makes it a lot more affordable. The one office I use quite a bit at the university has only open office as the office suite on one of the computers. It's amazing how many people it drives mad, to the point they refuse to use it and try to swap with the person on the machine with the whole microsoft office suite on it. Perhaps we have to start using these alternatives earlier on for them to be accepted. Lee 2009/2/10 Fearghas McKay > > On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: > > >> "Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to >> schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office." >> >> It is cheaper but not that cheap... >> > > At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there was a > site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. Which > probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the floppies. > > The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is £99, inc > VAT, so £33 a user. > > >f > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ >
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10/02/2009 10:24, "Fearghas McKay" wrote: >> I was basing it on purchasing a single copy. Purchasing a site wide >> license >> for say 500 desktops would see significant savings. >> > > Which was Adam's point. Indeed, the figures I included on the first email were just an example >> The Home/Student edition is cheaper but that's not for schools to >> use, it's >> for the students to have on their own laptops which they aren't >> allowed to >> connect to the school wifi... > > ?? > > Well I had better remove the copies off my son's desktop and tell him > not to connect to his school network with the laptop... > > Really ? Do you have a citation for that? My reading of the licence > didn't not include those restrictions on the Mac version, albeit a > couple of years ago when we purchased the software. The copy on your son's computer is fine, he is a student after all. It is a Home/Student Edition. When I say not for School + mean a school could not use it as a base install throughout their class rooms as it would be being licensed to a business (the school) not an individual user. As for connecting his laptop to WiFi I was being slightly tongue in cheek as most schools won't let kids on the network with their own machine due to security restrictions.
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:51, Alun Rowe wrote: I was basing it on purchasing a single copy. Purchasing a site wide license for say 500 desktops would see significant savings. Which was Adam's point. The Home/Student edition is cheaper but that's not for schools to use, it's for the students to have on their own laptops which they aren't allowed to connect to the school wifi... ?? Well I had better remove the copies off my son's desktop and tell him not to connect to his school network with the laptop... Really ? Do you have a citation for that? My reading of the licence didn't not include those restrictions on the Mac version, albeit a couple of years ago when we purchased the software. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
The cost of school licences is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of lifetime subscription. Microsoft may be many things, but they aren't stupid..! Phil On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Fearghas McKay wrote: > > On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: > > >> "Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to >> schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office." >> >> It is cheaper but not that cheap... >> > > At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there was a > site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. Which > probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the floppies. > > The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is £99, inc > VAT, so £33 a user. > > >f > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > -- http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com
RE: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in stateschools free and open source
> It goes deeper than this; currently there is no place in the > national curriculum to teach kids to touch type. So even > though they will most likely spend a large part of their time > on a keyboard no one thinks it appropriate to teach them an > effective way to do that. Bet they know who was the king of England in 1658 though :) [1] We place some interesting priorities on education. It took years to get even basic cooking skills on the educational menu, and even now it's often shoved into hour long classes where no one has time to do anything properly. I didn't learn cookery at school. Bit I did make a coat hook in metalwork... [1] Actually they don't but there's plenty of people who would place that knowledge above typing skills. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
On 10/02/2009 09:36, "Rob Myers" wrote: > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Alun Rowe wrote: > >> //personal rant coming up... >> >> For any open source software (Linux for example) to really work on the >> network en mass we need to about user experience. Currently I've yet to see >> an attractive/user friendly piece of FOSS. > > Anecdotally, I find that Inkscape is much better usability wise than > Illustrator, and that Firefox is much less awful than IE's menu bar > idiocy. There are obviously exceptions to prove the rule :) > Be careful what you wish for: the current KDE 4 train wreck came from > the developers focussing on "user experience". It's an interface so > godawful that everyone I have seen use it has been personally offended > by it. ;-) The problem with usability is that everyone has their own way of doing things! > The desktop user experience with Free Software is getting much better. > For me personally it's become a non issue over the last two years > (before then I might have agreed with you more). It is getting better but it's still not 'Dad' proof (My dad has an extremely short fuse when it comes to computers having programmed them since he left school (with punch cards!) through to RPG based Advanced 36's). Once my dad is happy using them then the revolution may begin! > But for many people, "usability" equals familiarity; making it work as > badly as Windows. ;-) Firstly, not everything about Windows is bad, but I grant you lots of it is! Secondly I'm not sure that people want it to be just like Windows. Lots of people try Macs and complain for about 30 minutes about it then when you try to take the machine away at the end of the day they threaten you with violence... People WILL move but it has to be BETTER rather than different.
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
I was basing it on purchasing a single copy. Purchasing a site wide license for say 500 desktops would see significant savings. The Home/Student edition is cheaper but that's not for schools to use, it's for the students to have on their own laptops which they aren't allowed to connect to the school wifi... On 10/02/2009 09:44, "Fearghas McKay" wrote: > > On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: > >> >> ³Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices >> to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license >> for Office.² >> >> It is cheaper but not that cheap... > > At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there > was a site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. > Which probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the > floppies. > > The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is > £99, inc VAT, so £33 a user. > > f > > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > > > This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the > individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that > is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you > are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this > message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from > your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. > > Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as > information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or > incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for > any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, > that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is > required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented > are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the > company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: “Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office.” It is cheaper but not that cheap... At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there was a site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. Which probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the floppies. The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is £99, inc VAT, so £33 a user. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Alun Rowe wrote: > //personal rant coming up... > > For any open source software (Linux for example) to really work on the > network en mass we need to about user experience. Currently I've yet to see > an attractive/user friendly piece of FOSS. Anecdotally, I find that Inkscape is much better usability wise than Illustrator, and that Firefox is much less awful than IE's menu bar idiocy. The free desktop experience has become more unified as the Mac one has become more fragmented. > Whilst the software (once you've > worked out how to use it) is extremely effective IMO user experience is a > big part of the software which usually gets overlooked in FOSS scenarios. I > think FOSS can have a huge future but the community need to think about user > experience then it will be taken more seriously. Be careful what you wish for: the current KDE 4 train wreck came from the developers focussing on "user experience". It's an interface so godawful that everyone I have seen use it has been personally offended by it. ;-) The desktop user experience with Free Software is getting much better. For me personally it's become a non issue over the last two years (before then I might have agreed with you more). But for many people, "usability" equals familiarity; making it work as badly as Windows. ;-) - Rob. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
"I think FOSS can have a huge future but the community need to think about user experience then it will be taken more seriously." FWIW I've just come back from FOSDEM (open source community event in Brussels), and there are plenty of open source projects now putting usability at the top of their requirements list - and are hiring accordingly. These include Ubuntu, Firefox (of course!), Drupal and Mediawiki. Those are just the ones I know about. Hopefully we'll see some positive results in the coming months and years. Phil On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Alun Rowe wrote: > > > > On 09/02/2009 23:15, "Christopher Woods" wrote: > > unless some incredibly > > well-designed thin client solutions were brought to my attention (and > then > > you're talking equivalent prices for thin clients as you would for > regular > > MiniATX desktops). > > I'm not sure that a thin client can, as you suggest, handle the > requirements > of a school's media department, in this instance you would place a > desktop/tower instead. > > We run a mixed client setup for a number of housing associations in the UK > where the majority of users (admin/management etc), who do not require huge > graphics capability, run with a Wyse terminal and the planning department > (for example) will have a well specced Dell machine. > > As you suggest a decent thin client will cost you as much as a MiniATX > machine BUT it has much lower power consumption and have a potential life > of > 8 years or more. Typically a PC if having to run Windows will be lifed at > 3 > years. So after 3 years where a typical Windows environment will be > replaced in toto we are simply adding more power to our VMWare server pool. > > > I'm still personally very sceptical of thin client solutions, I don't > think > > their capabilities ar sufficient to satisfy all the potential uses for > > educational machines. And I wouldn't like to have all that total reliance > on > > just a handful of extremely powerful servers; it's bad enough when the > > Internet proxy server goes down or the network drive can't be accessed > > because the Active Directory is having a fit, but to have a classful of > > children sitting in front of dumb terminals when the primary host server > for > > that classroom's client machines goes down? Wuh oh. > > You can run multiple head servers and backend pool for a TS environment. > > > Maybe my mistrust is misplaced, and thin clients are actually really > quite > > good at most things now... Perhaps my perception of them, like many other > > peoples', is part of the problem which needs to be addressed. There must > be > > some reason other than bloody-mindedness that makes schools keep on going > > for full-PC solutions time after time though... > > Really? In my experience school IT staff are generally beholden to RM or > similar and do as they are told. RM would see a MASSIVE drop in hardware > sales if they pushed people onto thin client do to the reasons I list > above. > So I can't see them doing it anytime soon... > > >I do aim to do more work in > > the educational sector as my own business gets going in the next few > years, > > and I want to offer all kinds of viable solutions as long as they work > well > > for everybody. Do you really think that setups like the LTSP are as > > competitive as regular networks of fairly powerful x86 machines and > central > > file/print/etc servers for secondary school environments? (not being > sarkies > > here, genuinely interested to know your thoughts and prepared to do a lot > of > > reading if you have suggested starting points). > > I've unfortunately not had enough experience of a pure FOSS network and > would definintely like to see more. My IT company are always looking to > improve things! The couple of Ubuntu servers we run for Web Services/SVN > etc are wonderfully reliable. But... > > //personal rant coming up... > > For any open source software (Linux for example) to really work on the > network en mass we need to about user experience. Currently I've yet to > see > an attractive/user friendly piece of FOSS. Whilst the software (once > you've > worked out how to use it) is extremely effective IMO user experience is a > big part of the software which usually gets overlooked in FOSS scenarios. I > think FOSS can have a huge future but the community need to think about > user > experience then it will be taken more seriously. > > -- http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
³Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office.² It is cheaper but not that cheap... For example: MS Office single license = £43 + £25 Software assurance Windows Server Standard (Single License) = £85 + £42 software assurance ³Parents have an expectation that MS Office will be taught in the classroom as it is what they know and use in their work place.² Most parents I know are not that worried about what is used but they are concerned about compatibility with their home machine etc. ³The majority of schools have limited IT resources and might have limited experience of using and securing Linux and other open source software. They could be substantial costs in retraining staff.² Yes they would have limited experience but nothing a bit of training wouldn¹t cover IMO. ³I totally agree that opensource has a great to offer schools with applications like Moodle, Audacity and many others, but currently I don't think many schools are ready for Linux/Ubuntu and OpenOffice.² I don¹t think most users would care if you ran Ubuntu/OpenOffice. Beyond that we come back to my argument regarding the user interface where, unfortunately, most of the open source software loses out big time! Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
Re: [backstage] Make the primary OS used in state schools FOSS
On 09/02/2009 23:15, "Christopher Woods" wrote: > unless some incredibly > well-designed thin client solutions were brought to my attention (and then > you're talking equivalent prices for thin clients as you would for regular > MiniATX desktops). I'm not sure that a thin client can, as you suggest, handle the requirements of a school's media department, in this instance you would place a desktop/tower instead. We run a mixed client setup for a number of housing associations in the UK where the majority of users (admin/management etc), who do not require huge graphics capability, run with a Wyse terminal and the planning department (for example) will have a well specced Dell machine. As you suggest a decent thin client will cost you as much as a MiniATX machine BUT it has much lower power consumption and have a potential life of 8 years or more. Typically a PC if having to run Windows will be lifed at 3 years. So after 3 years where a typical Windows environment will be replaced in toto we are simply adding more power to our VMWare server pool. > I'm still personally very sceptical of thin client solutions, I don't think > their capabilities ar sufficient to satisfy all the potential uses for > educational machines. And I wouldn't like to have all that total reliance on > just a handful of extremely powerful servers; it's bad enough when the > Internet proxy server goes down or the network drive can't be accessed > because the Active Directory is having a fit, but to have a classful of > children sitting in front of dumb terminals when the primary host server for > that classroom's client machines goes down? Wuh oh. You can run multiple head servers and backend pool for a TS environment. > Maybe my mistrust is misplaced, and thin clients are actually really quite > good at most things now... Perhaps my perception of them, like many other > peoples', is part of the problem which needs to be addressed. There must be > some reason other than bloody-mindedness that makes schools keep on going > for full-PC solutions time after time though... Really? In my experience school IT staff are generally beholden to RM or similar and do as they are told. RM would see a MASSIVE drop in hardware sales if they pushed people onto thin client do to the reasons I list above. So I can't see them doing it anytime soon... >I do aim to do more work in > the educational sector as my own business gets going in the next few years, > and I want to offer all kinds of viable solutions as long as they work well > for everybody. Do you really think that setups like the LTSP are as > competitive as regular networks of fairly powerful x86 machines and central > file/print/etc servers for secondary school environments? (not being sarkies > here, genuinely interested to know your thoughts and prepared to do a lot of > reading if you have suggested starting points). I've unfortunately not had enough experience of a pure FOSS network and would definintely like to see more. My IT company are always looking to improve things! The couple of Ubuntu servers we run for Web Services/SVN etc are wonderfully reliable. But... //personal rant coming up... For any open source software (Linux for example) to really work on the network en mass we need to about user experience. Currently I've yet to see an attractive/user friendly piece of FOSS. Whilst the software (once you've worked out how to use it) is extremely effective IMO user experience is a big part of the software which usually gets overlooked in FOSS scenarios. I think FOSS can have a huge future but the community need to think about user experience then it will be taken more seriously.
