Re: Fertilizer - Bio - Solids
http://www.omri.org/sludge.pdf http://www.cfe.cornell.edu/wmi/PDFS/Caseforcaution.pdf And see various references at: http://www.cfe.cornell.edu/wmi/ Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bio-Dynamic List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: Fertilizer - Bio - Solids Hi folks! My son has written me asking for help with question regarding a project that he and others are doing in an agricultural production class in the geography department at the university which he attends. Does anyone have any articles or information which you think might be helpful for the question below?? Many thanks! Wayne * we are doing a short presentation in my agricultural production and global food distribution class in which we are to discuss the pros and cons of biosolids (human waste) for agricultural purposes. i thought that you may have some newsletters or something involving this topic so i thought that i would email you and see if you did. if you do happen to have any type of articles would you email them to me. our group is working on the con side of things. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern Expressing the Light http://www.ExpressingTheLight.com A Ministry Dedicated to the Divine Process and Light Expression Essences http://www.LightExpression.com A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Re: mean spirited
A www.google.com search for 'arsenic poultry lawsuit' brought many hits, the first one in Oklahoma and Arkansas: www.nwaonline.net/pdfarchive/2002/december/12/RZ%2012-12-02%20A6.pdf http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030110/daf012_1.html It's my understanding that arsenic is included in chicken feed to increase appetite and improve growth rates. Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Will Brinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: RE: mean spirited Where is this case of arsenic being taken to court? Any particulars would help. William F Brinton Woods End Lab Mt Vernon ME www.woodsend.org --- On Mon 02/10, Deborah Byron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Deborah Byron [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:13:59 -0600 Subject: mean spirited Speaking of citizen groups vs. the poultry industry, a group here (using out of state lawyers, I might add) is suing the big poultry producers regarding the public health hazard caused by arsenic--which enters the soil via chicken litter spread on fields and then becomes airborne in dust. There has been an unusually high rate of pediatric cancer cases recently in small farming communities and one thing that investigations revealed were extremely high levels of arsenic in school air filters. Now why, you might ask, would arsenic be used in poulty houses. The anwer: its put into the feed because it promotes faster bleed-out in chickens when they're processed. And then there's the featherless chicken, developed courtesy of Israeli researchers. Not long ago an arts center here advertised a mural design contest that would capture the local esprit. I envisioned a giant godzilla-sized rooster scratching, pecking and rampaging its way toward Tyson Foods headquarters. Oh well, maybe in devachan.
Re: CT=BDcompost,preps+Alaska humus, forest humus kelp
Hi Merla, Thanks for your note. In fact, I am Frank L Teuton III, and my grandfather, Frank Sr, was the camellia man and my first gardening educator... We had a 15 foot high bush of 'Colonel Fiery' near our house in Maryland that my grandfather had planted, and he had many others on his own property. It was part of his life's work to try to see how far north he could bring camellias, and he worked with people at the National Arboretum in DC on the project...they were just up the river from us. There is one variety out there named 'The Two Marthas', and one of those Marthas was my grandmother. Re hoes and hoeing, here is a little joke I picked up at a recent conference: An old farmer took a look at his weedy fields of vegetables and decided to head down to the local employment office to hire some weeding help. He stepped up to the counter and told the young man there, I want to hire some hoers. The young man looked back, incredulous. Sir, are you saying you want to hire prostitutes?? The farmer shot back, I don't care what religion they are, son, as long as they can get out the weeds! ;-) To keep the thread on-topic, here is an URL about compost tea: http://mars.wiz.uni-kassel.de/tropentag/proceedings/2002/html/node21.html Basilios Papageorgiou, Jürgen Helbig, Carmen Büttner: Ability of Watery Extracts of Composted Organic Waste from Urban Households to Control Airborne Plant Pathogens BASILIOS PAPAGEORGIOU, JÜRGEN HELBIG, CARMEN BÜTTNER Humboldt University Berlin, Institute of Horticultural Sciences, Germany The effect of compost applications on plant health has mainly been investigated regarding soil borne diseases. The few investigations on the effectiveness of shoot treatments with watery compost extracts showed that leaf pathogens were effectively controlled and that different mechanisms seemed to be involved. Additionally to systemically acquired induced resistance, some other antagonistic mechanisms of the microorganisms present in compost extracts were observed, including production of antibiotics, concurrence for nutrients or parasitism. In the present investigation, the effectiveness of watery extracts from composts that were produced from organic household waste in West Africa, was examined using the pathosystem tomato and Alternaria solani. Applications of watery compost extracts successfully suppressed infection of A. solani on tomato. Different factors were checked for their impact on the effectiveness of the extracts and the density of microorganisms present in the extracts. Temperature and frequency of stirring significantly influenced the density of microorganisms and the effectiveness against A. solani. Daily stirring of the compost-water mixture during the extraction period (3 days) increased the density of microorganisms sevenfold and disease incidence was reduced by [27]% as compared to the treatment with only one initial stirring. The incubation of the compost-water mixture at [20]C increased the number of microorganisms in the extract tenfold as compared to mixtures incubated at 30 and [35]C. The extract incubated at [20]C reduced incidence of A. solani by [66]% as compared to the control, whereas the other variants were less effective. The formulation substances cellulose, alginate and xanthan were added to the extracts to increase their effectiveness against the pathogens. The extract enriched with xanthan reduced disease incidence on tomato by [23]% as compared to the extract without formulation substances. Storage duration of the composts after their preparation significantly influenced the density of microorganisms present in the extracts and their effectiveness against A. solani on tomato. Those composts that were stored for a shorter period showed a higher number of microorganisms in the extract and a higher effectiveness of the extracts. Sounds a bit more like Elaine than Will to me... Best, Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Merla Barberie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 6:18 AM Subject: Re: CT=BDcompost,preps+Alaska humus, forest humus kelp Thanks, Frank, I appreciate your good thoughts on this matter. I have a long way to go to come up to snuff on many aspects of our own farming practices as well as the road project. I can see I need to put more time in goal-setting and planning for both. My Dad was raised on a farm in Hickson, TN, and had to come home from school and hoe strawberries until he got nosebleeds. He did not want to make a living as a farmer. He got a job with the Corps of Engineers during the Depression and stayed with that until he retired. He had 100 12 foot high camellias in the back yard and I used to go out there with him and he would show me the blooms on each bush and tell me their variety name. My mother and I would often wear camellias to Sunday School and Church. He also had tomato plants in the small sunny space under
Re: CT=BDcompost,preps+Alaska humus, forest humus kelp
for myself and my son, so my worm mogul industry connections are revealed, and I also had a friend in the states send some worms to Allan...but he never tells me how they are doing, which may explain my special pique with him...;-) Basically Merla, my advice is to go slowly, make sure what you are doing is safe and well founded, and look for the reasons underlying different opinions being offered to you. If at all possible look for data that has been published somewhere when seeking to choose between conflicting opinions. And, when in doubt, try it out, and see what works best for you. 'The way of the old masters, was to find their own way'. Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Merla Barberie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BD Now [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 4:46 PM Subject: CT=BDcompost,preps+Alaska humus, forest humus kelp Experienced BD folks, This is my year for my own BC 500 AND for 24 hr aerobic compost tea. Exactly in what proportion do you combine them? Do you stir the 500 and then put in in the CT for 24 hrs? Do you put it on separately in the ritual way? Allan's post questioned whether CT is needed if you're using BC. I'm confused. The latest posts make me wonder for an instant whether buying a Bitty-O-Later would be a good idea or not. Also a post from Ms. Berkley, possibly on the regulation committee on the NOSB standards in the Compost Tea list/serve files states that CT is considered raw manure. I thought that was not being enforced this year. Am I asking this on the wrong list/serve or can someone answer? I don't want to have my OG certification denied. So much potential--so much confusion! Merla
Insecurity Blues (or Fear and Loathing on the Freedom Trail)
Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid. Step outta line, the man come and take you away. Stop children, what's that sound, everybody look what's going down Find, your cost of freedomburied in the ground. Mother earth will swallow you. Lay your body down. Yeah, let us make it harder and harder for people to access our thoughts and words, gosh, wouldn't it be awful if they read them and thought about them? Free speech should only be for fair weather, when the going gets tough we should all hush up, eh? Hide your love away, baby Maybe while you are hiding away the history of the list, you should change the name from BDNOW! to bd, uh, maybe, sometime No GUTS, no GLORY'twas ever thus (Of course if you want to start an 'inner circle' private email discussion for people who are unwilling to speak out to the internet, you can always do sotill they come for you...) Get up, Stand up! Stand up for your rights! Get up, Stand up! Don't give up the fight! And who could forget: The junta broke the fingers, on Victor Jara's hands, and said to the gentle poet, play your guitar now, if you can, so Victor started singing, until they shot his body down...you can kill a man, but not a song when it's sung the whole world round... Of course I wouldn't want to credit any of the authors of these words, since the small chance that the Office of Total Information Awareness doesn't know who they are would then be obliterated. (Ha ha!) Either stand up and encourage others to do likewise, or close the shop and slink away. Really there is little point holding an internet discussion and keeping it secret, what the heck are you thinking? So, self edit, delete any posts their authors want deleted, and carry on. Or not. Just don't pretend to be courageous if you don't. My two cents, Frank Teuton--hopes he didn't make anyone 'uncomfortable'.;-) 'We must all hang together, or we shall surely hang separately.' ---Benjamin Franklin, who had mad King George in his day too;-) - Original Message - From: Steve Diver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: Re: Personal Security vs National Security I don't have time to read through all the posts, but I got far enough to voice my opinion. Allan, sorry but I don't think much of your idea to move BD-Now to a private space and to expunge the earlier archives. I don't think much of YahooGroups, either. Yet, I will certainly join the private group and post occassionally if that is what you decide to do. The archives are very valuable and they are quick. A person has a whole library of information available by organizing links to the posts. The archives have convenient links instead of those convoluted links. If it is possible, keep the archives at csf.colorado.edu There are stranger and more far out things on the web than Steiner, BD, radionics, and trees as broadcasters. Some people lament that acceptance and widespread adoption of biodynamics is behind the times. BD-Now offers valuable knowledge and technical support for BD. Steve Diver
Fw: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics
- Original Message - From: Frank Teuton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics Dear Dr Benbrook: I appreciate the tone of your post. The problem as I see it, is that a task force on compost issues, including compost tea, was brought together that did not include any of the advocates, advisors, or practitioners of compost tea making, specifically Dr Ingham and some of the firms she works with. I don't pretend to understand the politics of who is in and who is out in creating these groups, but I do know that when you exclude a group of stakeholders from a process such as this, then issue a finding which undermines their work directly, the result is not likely to be a satisfied and happy bunch of campers. Any future body formed about the issues of compost tea should certainly include Dr Ingham or someone who can represent a similar viewpoint. Furthermore, the group should at least attempt to perform a literature review, and conduct a sampling of the various commercially produced products, for both positive and negative aspects. It should not be difficult to access the underlying research such a group relies on for its recommendations. Every effort should be made to be open, to receive and respond to comments, and to clearly state assumptions, research needs, opinions of various task force members, and the basis of recommendations and conclusions. It should also attempt to put these things into clear and simple language so that farmers and other growers as well as consumers understand what is known, what is assumed, and what else needs to be done. Clearly, no one out there has a total, thoroughgoing understanding of all the details of microbial action in water, soil solution, phyllosphere, rhizosphere and solid state environments such as drier soils and composting and vermicomposting environments. Our best researchers, of which Elaine Ingham is certainly one, admit that we are barely scratching the surface in terms of knowing who all the actors are, and knowing exactly what each does. But, as Russel Bulluck used to like to close his posts: The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot be dealt with as a whole with any detail by any one person, and at the same time it plays so important a part in the soil economy that it must be studied. --Sir E. John Russell The Micro-organisms of the Soil, 1923 Indeed in one of his pithier posts on a closely related topic, Russ lays out the reality for us: Here's the good news and the bad news. . . The good news is that pathogenic strains of enteric bacteria (such as the dreaded E. coli O157:H7) produce toxins that require a large energy output, and as such, these organisms are not normally good competitors in the soil environment (being used to the gut of cows, the bugs in the soil no longer have a constant and rich nutrient supply or constant and pleasant 37 degrees C temp). The bad news is that some enteric bacteria will likely be found in soil! We don't live in a sterile environment, but luckily, most of the bacteria in soil (and our food for that matter) are not harmful. Let me say this. . . the food that we eat (be it vegetable, mineral or animal) has bacteria on it or in it. That's right, our food has bacteria in it. . . millions of bacteria. Our skin has bacteria on it, as well as fungi, mites, some nematodes (likely as not), and other bugs that literally make your skin crawl (does everyone feel a little itchy now?). Most bacteria and fungi are not that bad. If they were bad, we'd not be here! http://www.sare.org/htdocs/hypermail/html-home/43-html/0129.html I personally want organic food to be food grown in a living soil, with a full and active foodweb. That means, yes indeed, there will be millions of bacteria on it, of a large diversity, and fungi, and other stuff. That living food is what we all evolved on; it is what we have eaten for countless millennia. People who want or need sterile food should either not buy organic food (or conventional food, either, for that matter) or they should cook the heck out of everything. I think the big bugaboo on compost tea down at the NOSB is fear of 0157. I think every time 0157 is raised as an issue, it should be pointed out that the big breeders of this pathogen are the CAFOs, especially grainfed cattle feedlots. It is true that such operations are sufficiently widespread that 0157 could be on everyone's farm, and that suitable precautions should be taken; see for example: http://www.cog.ca/efgsummer2000.htm#ecoli But it is also true that if we really wanted to greatly reduce 0157 in the environment, we would stop the practice of grainfeeding ruminants. All the costs associated with this practice are now being borne by the larger society, including consumers
Fw: E-Coli
- Original Message - From: Vicki Bess To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: RE: E-Coli Hello, Thanks for the inquiry, sorry your name was not attached so that I could address you personally. I apologize for the delay in response but I have been traveling and this e-mail just came to my attention. I have been an advocate of compost tea use in agriculture for many years and continue to encourage the understanding of compost tea production and efficacy on a scientific basis. There has never been an intent on my part (primary or otherwise) to thwart its use and, quite to the contrary, by understanding and controlling its production, I would hope for increased use and better results. I certainlypromote the use of E.coli-free compost for the production of compost tea. In order to answer the research question concerning the fate of E. coli in compost tea production, however, it is necessary to have E. coli in the compost for that testing. One cannot study the fate of E. coli in a system where it does not exist. While it would be great to think that no one ever makes compost tea using compost with E. coli residuals, the reality is that sometimes there is E. coli remaining in compost, even if at very low levels,and we need to understand what happens during tea production in that case. The only way to control and manage compost tea production is ultimately through understanding the process, which means that it is important to know the impact of nutrients on the microbial constituents. Compost tea is an important tool for agriculture and I think that we can all agree it is critical that we understand how to produce a tea that is both safe and effective. Regards, Vicki Bess [Vicki Bess] -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 5:52 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: E-Coli I read an article by Vicki Bess stating quality of compost is critical in making good compost tea.I agree. That said, why did Vicki ask for compost contaminated with e-coli to prove that adding molasses can breed additional e-coli in the brewed tea? Was it Vicki's primary intent to thwart the use of brewed compost tea for organic gardening by following a procedure designed to make brewed compost tea look bad? Thank-you.
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
of assurance is a way to test for TQC (Tea Quality Compost) that is 99.99% and then some sure. I believe this is not that difficult, could bridge the gap that exists between regulators, their immediate advisors and Elaine, and get us all something we can work with successfully. It is one thing to attack Dennis Avery, who is a bought and paid for attack dog for the chemical industry. It is another to attack people who have made their life's work in and around the organic and biodynamic sectors, such as Will Brinton and Vicki Bess. It is clear that we have had a massive communications breakdown here between the scientists, regulators, the public and the engaged entrepreneurs and practitioners. Much of the blame for that surely lies with NOSB, which has been pretty uncommunicative about all of this, and not open about the process of gathering information or receiving comments on this subject. That lack of transparency set me on edge against the process from the beginning. It still annoys me, and ought to be done away with, so that people can not only know what the recommendations are that are being made, but also how they were arrived at, the reasoning and data that underpin them, and thus be able to cogently challenge those recommendations based on real knowledge of their foundations. But, I am convinced at this juncture that there needs to be a Tea Quality Compost standard for compost tea used on fresh produce within 120 DOH. At the very least, no E. coli ought to be present. That's a position that can unite a large number of supporters, and keep the compost tea movement operating on all cylinders. I think Elaine's core thesis, full foodweb, full aerobicity, appropriate nutrients = E.coli elimination or reduction, will be borne out in time. But since composts can go through the heating phase, still retain low E. coli populations, and not then carry the full foodweb, the ability to verify foodweb needs to be solid. If there is much of a window of error there, we end up playing the negative lottery. So far I have strongly defended this 'Ingham thesis' against critics who don't seem to even understand it, which I find really disappointing. In the interests of trying to get the discussion past the level of 'we are right and they are evil', however, I am now pointing out that those who don't understand it, or disagree with it, are also not without reasons to suggest that poor compost in a compost tea environment could behave not only ineffectively, but dangerously. Process standards alone may not get the job done, and it seems like the only way to build a concensus that will allow compost teas in organic production is to move to performance standards. For those unclear on the distinction, time, temperature and aerobicity standards are process standards; verified no E. coli in the compost is a performance standard. Ingham and Bess both seem to feel this would work, now the question is, what are the other quiet voices in the compost science NOSB community saying, and why are they saying it? It should not be like pulling teeth to find out. And be sure, Lloyd, that if I buy produce grown with compost tea, I will want a good close look at their practices and procedures. Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps - Original Message - From: Frank Teuton What the Bess study purports to do is falsify Elaine's assertion. Bess took 'good enough' compost that had met process standards, put it in a Growing Solutions 25 brewer, measured DO levels throughout, and was able to grow E. coli when simple sugars were added to the mix, under repeated trials. Hi Frank Whats going on here??? Below is direct from one of Elaine's messages and she is talking about the material that Bess requested for her test From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:00 am Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Testing NOP Decision 'The Rexius material used was pre-compost material. Jack Hoeck of Rexius made that clear to me in an e-mail from him. He was asked for material containing E. coli, and that's what he gave them.' and again ' Wil Brinton told me in mid-July (I have the e-mail still) where he told me he'd never heard of 24 hour compost tea. And he was the expert the Compost Task Force was using to tell them about compost tea?' Somebody is bullsh***ing us! Who do you pick ? When I read the Brinton stuff my immediate reaction was this is nothing more than a direct attempt to sabotage the use of compost teas - clearly biased!! Typical science 'set the agenda first then design a test to come up with the appropriate answer' Ditto (only more so) for the work done by Brian Duffy (the closed flask experiment) totally irrelevant to the brewing
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
organic farms. According to Dr. Dale Hancock of Washington State University, E. coli 0157 is widespread in nature, occurring naturally and sporadically in the gastrointestinal flora of humans, cattle, deer, sheep, dogs, horses, birds, and perhaps other species. (13 ) The specific routes by which 0157 arrives on a farm are not known although birds, deer, other wild animals and livestock brought in from other farms are suspected (14). Ruminants appear to be the primary reservoir. Thanks, Merla You're welcome, Frank Teuton
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
scientific prostitute. And please don't endorse his arguments by wishy-washy agreement that we have to beware of coliforms in compost tea. We all have coliforms. I don't think there are any exceptions. Compost teas may have coliforms. Sure. Will Brinton is doubtless right. Big deal. Coliforms are ubiquitous. Scare tactics? Why succumb to them? Please, let's everyone get their brains on. OMRI calls for compost to have 3CFU of E. coli per gram. That is substantially lower than the 1000 MPN/g of fecal coliforms required for unrestricted use of composted biosolids under the EPA regs, for example. Is less than 3 CFU a good enough standard for compost tea? This is what the Compost Tea Task Force will be discussing, no doubt, as NOSB continues to examine the issue. I'm putting on my breastplate and bucklers and flexing my arms, shoulders, torso and legs, preparing to confront the unscientific bastards promoting this agenda. I think they know better, the SBs. Thank God I can laugh. Best, Hugh Lovel Hugh, I doubt tremendously if Will Brinton qualifies as an 'unscientific bastard who knows better' on this issue. Among other things, Elaine cites his works in several places in her Compost Tea Manual, he publishes in Biodynamics, and he's one of the early publishers on the whole phyllosphere concept, and the use of compost tea (as he defines it) in that context. The man certainly has credentials. Let's all forget, or at least set aside, issues of government, competition, and everything else that keeps us from examining the core question: How do we make good health promoting vitality conferring compost tea for foliar application on fresh produce crops within 120 days of harvest? Let's start with Elaine's instructions, and use compost that contains 'NO human pathogens'. Let's be really sure, and test that compost, since we may be growing whatever is in there. That should solve the problem, and satisfy the critics at NOSB. Not everybody makes 'tea quality compost', Hugh. People out there know this, the regulators at NOSB know it, organic inspectors know it. Here's a recent post by Elaine from SANET: November 10, 2002 Let's clarify the different kinds of compost tea that you might be concerned with, and ones that you don't need to be concerned with. If I forget a category, or you see the need to split a category, please chime n - First, if you apply tea made from any source more than 90 to 120 days before the crop surface would be consumed, there are no worries. Second, compost tea made from plant-based, no human waste compost. E. coli is not present in the starting materials, not present in the compost. This category should be of no concern to folks with respect to the human pathogen question. Third, compost tea made with food waste material that could have low levels of E. coli. E. coli is fairly easily reduced to non-detectable levels with this type of compost. Testing might be necessary to document that E. coli is not present in the final compost material, and that it is then safe to apply to food plants. Fourth, manure-based tea is what the E. coli concern is all about. We can make compost tea from manure-based compost without any E. coli in the final tea. BUT people also manage to make compost tea from manure-based compost that contains E. coli. The problem becomes, how do you KNOW that you managed to exit the E. coli from the tea? What are the parameters that allow E.coli (and other human pathogens) to be destroyed? We have done it, but now we need to understand what the important factors are in producing these teas routinely. So, that's where the situation is. Don't go ballistic about compost tea in general. But on plants that you eat without washing the surface of the material you are going to consume, stay away from compost tea made with manure-based compost. Elaine Ingham President, Soil Foodweb Inc. www.soilfoodweb.com Finally, Hugh, let me also say that because the amounts of compost needed to produce compost tea are ridiculously small, compared to normal field application rates, it is more reasonable to seek out the best quality ingredients, use the best practices possible aiming for the highest quality of compost, and pay for the testing of it all, than it would be for other sorts of composting. A few such people in an area could provide 'tea quality compost' to many other people, and share costs that way very reasonably. I think there are solutions in this area that don't require that we gird our loins, demonize those who disagree, and head off to war, in dubious battle. Gotta not give in to the zeitgeist, eh? In times of war, prepare for peace, I say... Frank Teuton
Fw: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics
- Original Message - From: Chuck Benbrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics I have learned much from the ongoing dialogue re compost and compost tea safety and thank the technical experts for taking the time to walk the non-microbiologists among us through the issues/science. I agree there is much more to learn re how to assure compost safety and that the U.S., for certain, has underinvested in this promising technology. Still, the unresolved scientific and food safety issues surrounding compost, and especially compost tea, pose a major challenge for not just the sustainable ag/organic community, but also for FDA/USDA and practising soil microbiologists. I appreciate the passion and knowledge Elaine brings to this issue, and her patience and clarity in many recent posts, but her views are not universally shared among the relatively small group of scientists charged with the responsibility of advising the NOP/USDA re how to move forward with the regulation of compost tea applications under the NOP. I have had a chance to discuss the recent work of the compost tea task force with some of its members and am concerned by the degree to which the work of the task force has come under attack, from a variety of quarters. We all know that some of the most strident enemies of organic agriculture have latched onto compost safety as an Achilles Heel of organic farming and that they will misrepresent the views of scientists, government agencies, the local bartender to make their point and raise concerns. Of course they will also fully exploit any disagreements within the organic community, a process now under way. The NOP/USDA, and the compost task force, have to be cautious and deliberate in moving ahead, and indeed their recent report and decisions could be regarded as consistent with the precautionary principle. There must be a very firm foundation if/when NOP/USDA endorses/permits applications of compost tea under circumstances that might, even very occassionally, result in a heightened risk of E. coli contamination. Anyone who believes that technology and processes now exist, or can readily be developed, that would assure food safety following applications of compost tea should take their case, and data, to the task force and other technical advisory bodies. But as we muddle toward concensus, the conclusions of these bodies must be accepted, even when some among us feel they are wrong. Constructive responses in the face of misguided technical advisory body conclusions is to assure that the committees in the future are composed of open-minded people lacking conflicts of interest; are given the background and data needed to understand the issues they have been asked to review; and to package/present data and information before the committees in clear and compelling ways. The way the organic community deals with potential compost food safety challenges will be among the decisive issues shaping consumer attitudes and interest in seeking out organic food. I hope everyone with scientific/technical skills and experience on these issues will find a way to work cooperatively and together to assure that the pursuit of the disease control and agronomic benefits of compost is carried out with a degree of patience, caution, and humility, recognizing that there is much we do not know and many lessons yet to be learned about the practical control and application of these technologies in the real world. Chuck Benbrook
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Jane Sherry wrote: Jean-Paul did not express interest, I was just lucky enough to be at the farm, ate some wonderful farm food, and mentioned the thread at bdnow. He is well aware of how ridiculous the USDA org regs are as regards e coli, and in fact mentioned that there could not possibly be any e coli in a properly made compost or compost tea! Jean Paul has previously said that he looks to Will Brinton as his composting guru. Brinton, in addition to advising us as to the proper shape of cow horn for prepmaking, is also on record pointing out that there is indeed a substantial possibility that 'properly made' compost and compost tea can have E. coli in it. Look at www.woodsend.org under publications, and make sure you have Adobe Acrobat reader. I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but if you are composting in a hurry, and even following the hot composting regs, you may still end up with fecal coliforms (E.coli and a few others) in the hundreds per gram, and can still brew them up into the thousands per ml. It may not happen every time, but apparently it can happen enough to make compost tea on food crops a sort of negative lottery. For that reason, compost tea advocates across the spectrum suggest that compost tea for fresh produce crops be made from certified compost containing no E.coli, especially no E.coli 0157:H7, the pathogenic form most likely to cause problems, found in a recent USDA study in nearly half the cattle herds in the USA. Yes, in really good compost you won't find E. coli, and yes, in really good compost tea E. coli will be reduced rather than grow. Vermicomposting, which composters who have a long cycle are often doing even without knowing it, will crash E. coli pops in as little as 7-60 days, perhaps due to the presence of certain amoebae that worms carry which find E. coli to be especially tasty...and/or perhaps due to other reasons involving the commensal consortia of microorganisms associated with the earthworms. Does everyone out there have 'really good compost'? Frankly I doubt it. Do the process standards required under the NOSB, or even recommended in Dr Ingham's Compost Tea Manual, always result in 'really good compost'? No, I think they do not. Those standards are designed to produce compost which is below 1,000 MPN per gram of fecal coliforms. Compost containing 100 or less MPN of E. coli (the predominant fecal coliform) has been used in reasonable looking compost tea brewers and been made to grow E.coli following various nutrient additions. This compost is well within the accepted norm of 'properly made compost'. So, while it may be true that many or most 'properly made composts' should contain low or no E. coli and not grow them in compost tea making, it is likely also true that some, perhaps even many 'properly made composts' do contain E. coli and lack the antagonists necessary to reduce E. coli, thus allowing growth to take place when suitable nutrients are added in a compost tea situation. Dr Ingham herself accepts as reasonable the suggestion that compost for tea applications on fresh produce within 120 days of harvest be tested and certified E. coli free. I think she knows that not all 'composts' will qualify. Frank Teuton
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Jane wrote: Certainly, there is going to be bad compost tea along with the good stuff. Uh huh. And, if the bad compost tea is used on the fresh produce, that means there will be a food poisoning outbreak, and dead kids and old people, and that is just, well, tough luck? Or, B, farmers should only make and use compost tea on fresh produce if it is tested and thus known to be pathogen free? Please forgive my lack of 'spiritual evolution' but, in my view, the effort required to use known compost entities is small and the benefit of assurance of tea quality is large, given the potential risks. Somehow, Oh well and Shrug seem to me unacceptable as a response to this possibility. Frank Teuton
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Jane: You sound like the kid who refused to do his homework because 'the universe is expanding'. Yep, there is all sorts of bad stuff out there, the 'gummint' is into it up to its armpits, etc, etc. It is still the case that compost tea can be made well, not so well, and downright badly. It is less obvious than originally put forward how easy it is to do it badly. In trying to tell whether Brinton or Ingham is right about the risk, it is necessary to look at their arguments and data. The Bess experiments at least show it is possible to grow E. coli from stuff that looks like compost (and had passed through the regulatory requirements for 'properly made compost' as far as process is concerned) in something that looks like a compost tea brewer, using recommended nutrients at recommended amounts. From the regulators POV this means 'compost tea' as an unrestricted practice is not acceptable. The restriction of no added nutrients first proposed by the Compost Task Force would eliminate the potential of magnifying foodweb populations through feeding; the other possibility of requiring testing either of the compost or the resulting teas preserves that potential, while imposing other costs. In my opinion, the NOSB was correct in not accepting unrestricted use of compost teas. What needs to happen next is to determine what the necessary safeguards are to permit amplified foodweb culture use for fresh produce growing. It is certainly premature to say 'oh of course it is the evil gummint placing its jackboot on the neck of conscientious compost tea proponents, whose inherent holiness suppresses all pathogen growth of any kind within a 50 meter radius of their passage through the time space continuum.' The science of all this is very far from being settled. I find it remarkable how easily the BD crowd dismisses their own compost scientist's viewpoint and research on this subject. It may be time to take a closer look at this, and be a bit more rigorous and skeptical. Frank Teuton---true, he doesn't lock his doors, but his garage is full of savage attack trained watch worms.which eat E. coli as if it were candy - Original Message - From: Jane Sherry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BdNow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps Oh, well is not at all my response. I am not a scientist, but I bet if you looked up the numbers for those killed or sickened by pathogens in government approved meat (listeria, e coli, etc etc) you'd understand my perspective. I maintain, that this government is NOT to be trusted with my health. It is only a start to certify food is supposedly safe. This government approves all kinds of chemicals are 'safe' to allow industry to dump into my groundwater, earth, air and food. So if you're going to argue that we need government certification, I would argue we need local certification which would be much more meaningful to me. I simply don't trust this government to tell me what is and is not good for me. Shall I go on? What about mercury in children's vaccines? Take your pick. I understand the main intention here is to protect the people from pathogens. But that ain't going to happen. Like our friend down under said, what about the jerk who eats salad after going to the bathroom doesn't have enough sense to wash his hands. This country is lawsuit crazy. This is another good way to make lawyers rich and people poor. Nothing in me is going oh well and shrug about certification. It 's more like oh shit, they're co-opting another good thing to make themselves rich. Jane From: Frank Teuton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:49:39 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps Jane wrote: Certainly, there is going to be bad compost tea along with the good stuff. Uh huh. And, if the bad compost tea is used on the fresh produce, that means there will be a food poisoning outbreak, and dead kids and old people, and that is just, well, tough luck? Or, B, farmers should only make and use compost tea on fresh produce if it is tested and thus known to be pathogen free? Please forgive my lack of 'spiritual evolution' but, in my view, the effort required to use known compost entities is small and the benefit of assurance of tea quality is large, given the potential risks. Somehow, Oh well and Shrug seem to me unacceptable as a response to this possibility. Frank Teuton
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Dear Hugh, The fact that we all carry benign strains of E. coli in our guts, and are colonized therewith shortly after birth, does not mean that there are not virulent strains of E. coli from animal sources that we need to be concerned about. The E. coli 0157:H7 issue is covered in a number of places; one recent paper that is interesting is: http://www.fass.org/fass01/pdfs/Callaway.pdf The infectious dose is indicative of the virulence of pathogenic bacteria, and E. coli O157:H7 has an extremely low infectious dose. In one outbreak the contamination level of E. coli O157:H7 in uncooked hamburger meat was less than 700 cells/patty and some victims ingested very little of the (improperly) cooked meat (Griffin, 1998). The Walkerton water outbreak here in Canada underscored the manure problem associated with 0157:H7: http://www.med.uwo.ca/ecosystemhealth/education/casestudies/walkertonmed.htm Now, Hugh, I am willing to accept that BD folks as a group are at low risk of having and spreading 0157 around. But, the NOSB has to deal with a larger universe of people than that, with composts coming from feedlot animals, and with an influx of newbies who may or may not know their excrement from their waxy shoe protectant, if you catch my reference... Compost tea is new. By that I mean compost tea as Elaine defines it, aerobically amplified and nutrient added. Whatever we should say about the Bess study, she showed that you can grow E. coli in a compost tea environment. For the most part E. coli is simply an indicator for the fate of other pathogens, chosen for its ease of monitoring, but in its 0157 form (and a few others) it is a potent pathogen in its own right, and at very low infective doses. The majority of 0157 outbreaks have been meat related, but several have also occured in salad materials, fruit juices, and sprouts. So, concern that 0157 might pass into compost tea through compost and into the food supply through application of tea and retention on produce surfaces is not absurd. It is reasonable, and a small amount of precautionary activity can ensure that we develop this exciting new tool in agriculture safely and responsibly. This is not a bad thing, nor the end of the world; it just echoes the age old truth that along with greater power ( the ability to quickly multiply the bacterial count of a watery extract of compost a thousand fold) comes greater responsibility ( the need to be even more careful to avoid multiplying a pathogen). I guess this also means, that yes Virginia, it does so matter where your cow pattie comes from;-) I suppose I could say something about stampeding, fear, ignorance, sticking your head in the sand, and really doing your homework on the science of the matter, but I already have enough bad karma for being unpleasant with Jane, so I won't go there But Hugh, there are an awful lot of people out there who think there really is a pathogen problem, including Dr Brinton, and even Elaine herself. Pretending it doesn't exist is not the answer. Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps Dear Frank, The E. coli scare is absurd. I question whether there is a single human on this continent that doesn't have E. coli in their intestines. On the other hand, the HR 157:H7 strain that is so pathogenic is a feed lot breed. It isn't cattle herds on pasture that have it, it is herds in confinement being fed on grain by-products. This produces a chronic diarhea condition in the cattle and hence they get HR157:H7. My local slaughter house that only slaughters local pastured beef gets tested twice a week and has never had any HR157:H7 show up. It is pathetic when fear stampedes people and they ignore the science of the subject. Best, Hugh Lovel Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: Deer and Elk in compost
Hi Stacey, If heat were all that happened in a compost pile, your comment would make sense, but... There is a remarkable process in work in composting. A complex foodweb exists, especially in the cooler range of temperatures, that has a wide range of ability to 'bioremediate' toxins, pathogens and other evil stuff. Vermicomposting has now been accepted by the National Organic Program in the US as a suitable composting method, for example, and in vermicomposting there is no 'hot phase' needed for pathogen destruction (weed seeds are another story). Nonetheless, pathogens are destroyed, by fully microbiological processes. So, whatever the fate of prions in a cooking situation, their fate in a composting situation is much more complex, due to the complex foodweb gauntlet they must run in composting. As I said, I am not aware that this subject has been researched and published upon. But the knowledge that scrapie has been around for centuries, and that humans seem no madder than usual, would indicate that there is something happening in nature to prions that keeps them from simply 'waiting to pounce' upon the next unsuspecting victim. Also, as noted by another poster, it is possible to have various composts with different ingredients. Composted animal products, where there is some doubt, could always be spread in forest systems or other low risk environments, where little human or other animal contact may occur After all, as old Uncle Walt tells us, critters have been living and dying out there for lo, these many years.and here we all still are, eh? Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Stacey Elin Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 3:53 AM Subject: Re: Deer and Elk in compost To explain why I said sure, if cooking at 400 degree temperatures doesnt, then composting process at 140 or wh atever the highest is, won't either. Stacey I'm sure the prions survive the composting process. Straight forward ideas don't survive the composting on this simple list- how can a grain of sand that was once a bit of sugar a few nucleotides? geewiz we'll have to employ Dr Evermore's Forevertron to handle them! Don't drive by Baraboo WI with out an jolt, It's wake ja up! Whoops it' late. L*L Markess
Re: Cats in compost
The reason meat is usually on the no-no list is that it can putrefy, smell bad and attract 'vectors' (undesirable critters from flies to bears). Nonetheless it can be composted. Doing a google search for 'on farm mortality composting' will get you some interesting hits. Critters decompose, but need some extra attention to avoid problems. Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Stacey Elin Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: Re: Cats in compost The reason I found it unusual is that I have read in many places that meat (I suppose they meant cooked meat) should *not* be composted. I'm not quite sure why this advice was given. Sure, waste not want not! That is along with snakes, rats, fish heads, oyster shells, prawn heads, lobster shells, egg shells, telephone directories, newspapers, junk mail and anything else that is available. Cats are a very serious feral animal here. Most Permaculture properties have a cat trap. Should I ever get off my back side and write the book on caring for the land I am pressed to do, I may call it One hundred and one ways to compost a cat. Gil Stacey Elin Rossi wrote: Do I have this right, Gil? You put an occassional dead cat in your compost??? = @@@ Stacey Elin Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://zip.to/anaserene @@@ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Org not com, was searching for OregonBD
www.oregonbd.org - Original Message - From: Patti Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Religion? Dave Robison wrote: The religion thing is difficult to convey without much more interaction. Let me suggest that in the intro to BD class at www.oregonbd.com, we tried to side-step those issues. You can get an idea of the conceptual model behind BD in a scientific sense without needing to be a cult-like true beliver. The idea being to not offend beginners by dumping too much ideology on them. Take a look and see if it helps you understand what BD is about. ~~ Dave, I have tried to access www.oregonbd.com but just get a message unable to locate server. Has this site moved? Patti. ~~~
Re: Compost Tea List
Hey Steve, Allan, et al: Given that cucurbits are notoriously volatile in terms of being up and running full steam one day, and down from a disease the next, crashes in the production thereof are somewhat to be expected from time to time. I must admit to a certain perverse satisfaction that the Great Storch has hit obstacles in his efforts to grow the Great Pumpkin, if only to demonstrate that BD growers are heir to the same problems that can plague everyone else. I salute his candor in 'fessin' up. If Allan and Elaine are right about compost tea, regular apps of compost tea could have prevented Steve's problem. Last year I grew white pumpkins on very rich soil that were packed tight foliage wise, and had no problems with powdery mildew ( I assume this is what Steve means by 'downy' but could be mistaken). In fact I still have one of them, that has kept well past the normal 'due date'.:-) But, as they say here, 'une annee ne resemble pas a une autre' (every year is different). Maybe my pumpkin patch of last year would have been nailed like Steve's this year. Maybe compost tea, or horsetail, or some other stuff applied at the right time would have saved it. You never step in the same river twice, which keeps kayaking from getting too boring, eh? I agree with Steve that spacing matters; nearly everything matters. If he had the same big rains this spring that we did, the stage was set for problems (too much water followed by not enough water = stressed plants). In any community garden plot on the island of Montreal, you can see some extremely tight spacing with high productivity, and due to very rich soil and regular watering, little disease in many cases. I once grew 22 canteloupes in a 4 x 5 space in one of mine! And, I also agree that compost tea is one tool among many, and cannot substitute for other good management practices. Subtle energies, it seems to me, can only go so far in correcting fundamental problems. In my own case, lack of water on deep sandy soil means we need to first and foremost organize ourselves to irrigate our land at least three months of the year. This point was driven home to us clearly by the drought we are now experiencing for the last two months. If I believed in Hugh's rainmaking abilities, I suppose I would order a Field Broadcaster and just ask for rain through it. But, I think instead I will go the more prosaic route, pumps and pipes and sprinklers. O me of little faith! And, while compost tea, properly made, can help with foliar problems, it cannot make up for too much water or not enough water, when these problems are severe. Otherwise people would be fighting floods and droughts with compost tea, which really wouldn't make sense, eh? One nice bonus to regular irrigation is the ability to move the tea to the field through the sprinkler system ( I have expressed my skepticism about the ability of drip systems to handle the tea, although some of the disposable ones might do it, much of the benefit would be lost in filtration). So, the irrigation system can now replace the tractor and sprayer most of the time as the tea delivery system. We also got a lot of mulching done this year, which will pay off down the road. But still, on land that could use two inches of rain a week, water is de rigeur, which means we gotta have it. Frank Teuton---humbly acknowledging that humus needs humidity... - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Compost Tea List In a message dated 8/28/02 6:30:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just the same, I'm very, very, VERY interested in hearing from you what a person could be doing wrong in SEED BED PREPARATION, PLANTING, SOWING, or CULTIVATION that would promote fungal diseases. Well, for instance we had a gorgeous patch of earth and over the fall and winter we had turnips and rudabegahs there. I ate as many as I could and I picked the remainder for the cows. By Winter's end I had stuff the size of soccer balls. The soil has classic bd crumb structure, earthworm every three to four inches, and you could see the fungal filaments in the soil. I thought wow, what a great field for squash or pumpkins this summer. Sure enough pumpkins go in. Planted way to dense. Plants come up and look great, fruit set is incredible. Weather turns nasty hot, dry then rains, turns humid and they get wailed with downy. So now we have three acres of soccerball size pumpkins in August and no vines with leaves left. What a lost opp ortunity...sstorch
Re: ELAIN INGHAM'S BUCKET CT BREWER was Re: Taking Another Step
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/Tea/tea1.htm Another set of instructions. It is also well worth while to buy Elaine's Compost Tea Manual, www.soilfoodweb.com
Re: Farm Vol Conversions
That would be BD by the book with 1/3 soil, eh, Steve? Compost made from organic matter without the big soil addition would fall more into the 800-1200 pound range per cubic yard, I think. People in the 1200-1400 pound per cubic yard have been heard to complain, and look for ways to bring down the density. See: http://mailman.cloudnet.com/pipermail/compost/2001-January/002407.html 3/4 of a ton is 1500 pounds, but 3/4 of a tonne (metric tonne, 2200 pounds) is a hefty 1650 pounds. Anyway, Allan, weigh a bucket of it and multiply by 40.;-) Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Farm Vol Conversions In a message dated 7/26/02 7:55:07 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frank - Remind me: what does a cubic yard of compost usually weigh? -Allan depending on inputs about 2/3-3/4-1 tonne...sstorch
Re: Farm Vol Conversions
Hi Lloyd, I think you meant 202 gallons, not 220. That'd be 40.5 buckets, or about 40 Frank---still standing at 40 buckets, although (white buckets) still need to be measured to know 'zactly how much stuff they hold - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 5:15 AM Subject: Re: Farm Vol Conversions - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 12:36 AM Subject: Farm Vol Conversions Asking this on the fly, hoping someone has already done the math: how many 5-gallon (WHITE) buckets of compost are there in a yard of compost? Thanks -Allan 220USgal /cu yard - 44bucketfuls have fun! LCharles
Wheelbarrows and Carts (wasRe: Farm Vol Conversions)
Now that I am working on an acres scale again, and moving materials about, the issue of how much of what you can get in what size cart thing is ever present. I recently bought a wheeled swivel jack for my trailer (4x6 by 16 high, 32 cubic feet filled flush, more if you mound it) to make it a three wheeled affair that can be hand pushed in the orchard. It can also be pulled by the little lawn tractor we use for spraying, hauling, mowing, etc. Now, we also have a little trailer for the tractor that is about half the size of the big one at 15 cubic feet, still twice the size of even a big wheelbarrow. This too could be tricked out with a third swiveling wheel in front, a pair of cart handles a la David Tresemer (see his Handcart Handbook) and shazam! a big human powered cart! I will say when these things are filled with several hundred pounds or more of stuff it is pleasant to put Ahriman to work to haul them. Even a little lawn tractor can be set to creep forward while you spread compost, rock dust, wood chips, etc, out of the back of the trailersand reins can be made to steer, etc. We disable the rider on safety feature by putting a couple of big rocks in the seat. In the days of the horse, wagon wheel carts holding more than a cubic yard were commonplace, and using Tresemer's plans there is no reason why a two wheeled cart could not be made to haul 800 to 1000 pounds, on level firm ground with good wheels I can pull or push that http://villageearth.org/atnetwork/atsourcebook/chapters/agtools.htm#The%20Ha ndcart%20Handbook Frank Teuton---has carted about a few cubic yards of compost and stuff - comes out at 199.98 us gallon - still no way this is gonna fit in any wheel barrow that I ever saw LCharles
Re: FW: Soil Fertility and Biodiversity in Organic Farming
I think what Steve is getting at, is that this post violated copyright. - Original Message - From: Steve Diver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:44 PM Subject: Re: FW: Soil Fertility and Biodiversity in Organic Farming Moen Creek, this post is not appropriate. You have zipped off a paper from a publisher's web page with little care and with little effort to attributte. It is a mess, it is hard to read snip
Peat and coconut wastes
I can't agree that moving coconut fiber out of the tropics for the benefit of temperate zone agriculture and horticulture is anything but organic matter piracy, frankly. Peat is being laid down in Canada many times faster than it is currently being harvested, and Northern soils accumulate organic matter much more rapidly than do soils in the growth zones of coconut. At the Vermillenium conference in September 2000, Dr Rhada Kale of India was asked by an American vermiculturist if it helped the people of Sri Lanka to buy their coconut coir as a peat substitute, or if it was actually robbing them. Dr Kale replied, without hesitation, It is robbing them. I certainly do agree with Micah that other, preferably local, materials be explored as organic matter sources. Eliot Coleman has an eloquent and informative discussion of these issues in the 2nd edition of The New Organic Grower, in case anyone would like more thoughts on this subject. Frank Teuton Micah wrote: Cordelia, Good luck with your clay soil! Regarding the peat, one thing that a lot of people are not aware of is that the peat industry is causing huge destruction to bogs all over the world, bogs which took millennia to form. Peat is great gardening stuff, organic useful, but it is part of a very complex, rare, and fragile ecosystem which is being rapidly lost. There was a great article about this in the last Oregon Tilth paper; I encourage everyone to explore more renewable substitutes, like coconut fiber or other ag processing by-products, depending on your needs. Just my thoughts on this! Micah
Re: urban manure
Help me here, a serious question 'caue I'm no zoologist: are elephants ruminants? Cud chewing bliss beasts filled with beneficial micro-organisms? -Allan Hind gut fermenters like horses, say the books. Dung ho!
Trouble Brewing: Science, Compost Teas and Organic Certification
Dear NOSB members and those interested in compost teas: I have been informed in the last few days that the process of making amplified aerobic microbial cultures starting with high quality compost, aerated water and nutrients to create a high bacteria and fungal count product useful in horticultural and agriculture has come under doubt, and has been slated to be placed under 120 day restrictions similar to those for raw manure. The reason proposed for this is supposedly that, under certain conditions, a nutrient solution will support growth of 'enteric pathogenic bacterial organisms' such as E.coli and Salmonella spp. I would very much like to see the specific details of the experiments which underly the judgment reached by the National Organic Standards Board Compost Task Force when it issued the following: 2. Compost and Vermicompost teas The use of a liquid compost extract, or compost tea, raises special issues. The preparation and use of compost tea and compost extract has been increasing in the U.S. during recent years. Organic producers especially are interested in compost teas and extracts because the preparations reportedly provide some degree of control of foliar and root pathogenic organisms. Various methods and practices have developed for production of the teas or extracts since the practice originated some years ago in Europe. However, recent research at the USDA Agricultural Research Service's labs in Beltsville, MD and Corvallis, OR shows that certain approaches to compost tea or extract preparation are conducive to growth of enteric bacterial pathogenic organisms, such as enterotoxigenic E. coli and Salmonella. The practices and procedures that lead to pathogen growth in the prepared teas and extracts involve the addition of supplemental nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available (soluble) carbon sources during batch production. The researchers did not observed growth of enteric pathogenic organisms when compost tea or extract was prepared only with water and high quality compost. By high quality compost, they mean compost that has met criteria for destroying pathogenic organisms, i.e., 131ºF for 3 days, or compost that has less than 3 MPN salmonella per 4 grams compost (dry weight) and less than 1000 MPN fecal coliforms. The critical determinant regarding pathogen growth in compost teas and extracts is the addition of the carbon sources like sugars, molasses, or yeast or malt extracts during the brewing phase. Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less than 120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available (soluble) carbon sources. http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/CompostCMTTskFrceRec.pdf This matter was brought to my attention in the pages of Dr. Elaine Ingham's internet newsletter: http://www.soilfoodweb.com/ezinearchives/may2002.html I have been using compost tea for the last two years, using the aerobic/nutrient added method. We are making extensive use of it in an apple orchard, and I use it in landscaping, gardening and lawn care. I have accepted as a working basis the judgment of Dr Ingham that good compost, good aeration and appropriate amounts of nutrients would yield a good quality tea that would offer benefits to plant growth and not pose a significant risk to human health. My results so far have given me no reason to doubt Dr. Ingham's judgment. So, I find this recommendation of the NOSB's Compost Task Force needs closer examination to see if in fact the experiments were properly done and indicate a real problem, or if, as Dr Ingham asserts is likely, they were poorly done and, used as the foundation for judgment, will result in the unnecessary exclusion of a valuable biological technology for organic and other growers. So I would like to have a full, detailed account of the conditions under which these experiments have been carried out. It strikes me as very peculiar that Dr Ingham has not run into pathogen problems in the course of working with hundreds of aerobic, nutrient added brewed compost teas, while other researchers claim to find them. Something in the parameters of the processes must be substantially different for such divergent results to occur. I feel it is crucial for the credibility of the organic movement to make these kinds of scientific decisions as transparent and open to scrutiny as possible. Replication of both positive and negative results and the use of peer-reviewed publications would be very helpful in making clearer what does, and what does not work in the use of microbial cultures, and thus what should be allowed, restricted or excluded under an appropriate regulation regime. All comments and further information are welcome, Frank L. Teuton III, BGS, JD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Shredders for composting
Allan, One way to handle green rye is given in Plowman's Folly by Faulkner, not suitable for your raised bed thing, but then, in me humble opinion, neither is rye, period. A winterkill crop like oats or ryegrass would be better suited especially since you have acres to mow before you sleep, eh? I believe, and someone jump down my throat if I am wrong, that you can make hay out of green rye and then feed it to animals. The hay part means you can save it and feed it only as needed. The animal part means they will work it into a green slurry for you, and then even produce milk, meat, wool, in the bargain. Yeah, you'll get a little less green slurry that way, but believe me, making anything like cereal rye into a green slurry takes more horsepower or patience than most of us likely have, plus your time might be better spent elsewhere. A simpleton's solution might be to mow and leave beside your raised bed for use as a mulch later on. You'll lose some magic to leaching and such, but it'll be right there when you need it.maybe in the fall? In the tractor tool scheme, I think something like a silage chopper might do enough to beat up the stuff for composting well without the overkill implied in 'green slurry', at least to my mind. Re late frosts, if it makes you feel any better (misery loving company and all) they had one in the Niagara region of Ontario too. You should expect late frosts, you know after Blue Ridge comes the 'M' word, eh? At least from time to timebut those vineyards in the Niagara region don't expect it. On to small scale things, I grew rye to maturity once in a small patch, Gene Logsdon-like, and used the dry straw both chopped and wholeboth ways worked to deliver aeration into the green stuff. I certainly agree with what's been said about getting a mix of sizes and shapes of materials for composting. I am, since my youth, a big fan of rameal chipped wood for a bulking agent and fungal food in composting, as well as a dandy mulch for the right crops I have used a 5 HP chipper shredder to cut up straw, and expect it would work best on green rye if fed in bundles, butt end first. Probably also best to feed it right after cutting while the turgor is still there. I would take my screen off completely, letting the front cutter and the hammermills do all the chopping and roughing work. Mixing grassclippings, straw/leaves, and wood chips in about equal volumes, by running them together through this shredder, I never failed to get 150 F temps when I wanted them. Most of the grass clippings go in thin layers on the worm beds now, though, which saves a lot of annoying ahrimanic shredder work. They get sandwiched between layers of leaves for the sake of C:N balancing. The long and short of it, Allan, is there are likely several different things you could do with your mown rye. I agree with you that none of them include incorporating it immediately and then planting soon. I hope for your sake it is far enough along to actually be killed by mowing. There is technology out there of all shapes and sizes, able to shred everything from giant tree roots to little office envelopes. If you just want to scarify the stuff enough so that the 'crobes can get into it, putting it under your macroherd for some time ought to work, and that was just what Sir Albert did. 'Trampled underfoot' isn't just about the subway rush in New York, you know... A layer of green rye, stomp, stomp, stomp, a layer of straw, leaves, or wood chips, stomp, stomp, stomp, some more green rye, stomp, stomp, stomp, a bit of manure falls in, plop, plop, plop-get it? :-) Frank Teuton---has recently been reminded of the power of hooves, from Belgian horses to sheep, and even birds can scratch up compostables a bityou might call it 'macro-comminution' if you've been spending too much time at sites like this one: http://www.earthlife.net/insects/isopoda.html - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:22 AM Subject: Re: Shredders for composting Dear Allan, Why not just mow the rye over with a mower and spray with Barrel Compost and then turn in by spade as a green manure, roots and all. Saves a lot of effort and still aids the soil. Then make a proper compost heap, with your hay and green matter and manure, for later use, and use your last lot of compost turned in with this lot as well on the raised beds. Cheryl Cheryl - Thanks for the suggestions. I'm working with acres here, often by myself. I'm going from covered soil to raised bed that I transplant into almost immediately, hence the raking off of the heavy organic matter, which, incidentally, extension agents in these parts do not feel contribute substantially to organic matter if turned in (roots, which remain in my beds being the greatest contributers and of mass equal to the tops). I do BC the beds right after spading-lifting-tilling. If I had
Re: Siphon Mixer
Actually Loyd these things would be OK for seaweed applications and the like, and if you had really good tea and wanted to get it out while watering, or doing fertigation, etc, it might be fine not for use in low pressure drip systems, but fine for ordinary hose pressures. Not for use with city water though because of the chlorine thing. 16-1 is a pretty high dilution rate for most tea things I could think of, but on a small scale might be just the way to make a little tea go a long way. My tuppence, Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Siphon Mixer - Original Message - From: D To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 2:42 AM Subject: Re: Siphon Mixer To see a siphon mixer go to http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/catalog/index.cfm?page=_ProductDetailsProductId=6401 Thanks Daniel Great little gadget for chemical applications and the like but "not for use as low pressure or low volume" I can't really see where it fits with compost teas/fertilisers Cheers Lloyd Charles
What Will that Brinton guy resort to?
Considering just the use of compost tea as a foliar spray that controls the development of a variety of fungal growths on leaves, how so, Steve? -Allan PS I mean, even Will Brinton resorts to compost tea for this sort of control. Ok Allan, you are connected and tapped in and on good terms with all these folks, Brinton describes teamaking as a 3-8 day process involving occasional stirring for a half an hour, and not needing to be all aerobic all the time, versus Ingham's gotta be oxygenated bubbly imperative. What does Will think of Elaine's tea thang? Obviously she thinks he is off base, eh? Look forward to hearing the dialog between these thinkers Frank Teuton
Re: First Tea Analysis Results
Here is a useful website for finding air pumps, diffusers, etc, and some info: www.aquaticeco.com
Re: First Tea Analysis Results
In my search for 'verstehen' on this whole compost tea thing, it seems to me there are a number of questions that never really get answered. For example, in Elaine's piece in Kitchen Gardener http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/G00030_p3.asp She talks about filling a five gallon bucket half full of compost, then bubbling up air through the compost plus nutrients. But in the larger systems much smaller amounts of compost are used, so the issue of extraction becomes more critical. For my part I do not understand why you can't just scale up the bucket system and use higher powered air systems, for example the sorts you see advertised for ponds, aquaculture and the like, eg: http://www.airdiffusion.com/ http://members.magnet.at/aquaculture/aeration.htm#Ceramic%20Diffusers http://www.faireyceramics.com/cpp/aerationdiffusion/ad1.htm http://www.higherpowersupplies.com/Tanks/Conebottom.htm http://www.stamfordscientific.com/Tube/tube1000.html http://www.mnmonline.com/equip.html It seems to me that the ideal thing would be to have as gentle a high oxygenation system as you could manage, and to put the compost in there in as natural and unsifted a state as possible, then use occasional stirring as an 'extraction' technology, or use stirring before or after the air and water bubbly phase. Simple experiments using just compost and water, then stirring, to determine extraction quality, could be done, and it seems to me, should be done and reported out. But I agree in principle with Steve, why separate the compost from the general process if you can avoid it? The Soil Soup sock thing, which I have, seems needed by the Soil Soup machine to keep chunky stuff from clogging up the mechanism of that device, but aeration through fine bubble diffusion, or even coarse bubble, seems not to need such a creature. If you look around at the commercial tea makers, they seem increasingly to use bubbling, for example: http://www.compara.nl/Compost_Tea_Systems.htm http://www.growingsolutions.com/products.html http://www.composttea.com/100gallon.htm http://www.freedom-organic.com/fo_smartbrewers.html So this obviates, or at least reduces, the need to 'put a sock in it' and allows for the compost to more completely mingle, mix and meander whilst breeding up the microherd oh so joyously. It should also mean that relatively small scale equipment in the 10- 50 gallon range should be available at about the cost of the aeration equipment plus container. With a 100 gallon system from the big boys going for as much as $4000 US, the economies of figuring this out on a DIY basis seem substantial. Some bubblings, Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 6:06 AM Subject: Re: First Tea Analysis Results In a message dated 4/28/02 8:13:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of the early issues of compost tea brewing was compaction that occurs within the compost tea bag. This is commonly solved by inserting and additional aeration nozzle into the tea bag itself. This physically pushes the compost away from compaction and provides direct aeration. I'm very interested in hearing experiences contrary to this and in hearing from Dan, who, as I understand it, uses this method. Try free flowing compost and food in the brewer, intimately in touch with the water... SStorch
Re: Bt
Bt explained in more depth: http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/MagRack/JPR/JPR_22.htm Bt is Bacillus thuringiensis, the subvarieties include kurstaki, israelensis, and san diego, which control lepidopterans, mosquitos and blackflies, and beetles respectively. Frank---has an entemologist friend who flew helicopter missions delivering Bt israelensis around Canadian military bases - Original Message - From: Michael Roboz To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 9:06 PM Subject: Bt Dear Stacey, Christy, Different Bt's work against different organism. eg. Bt thuriengiensis works against all lepidopterans (caterpillars of moths, butterflies) Bt Israelensis works against beetles. Michael
Re: Plant exudates
Google hits on plant root exudates: http://www.uoguelph.ca/~tgraham/exud_tbl.htm http://www.biotech-info.net/fate_effects.html http://www.ls.huji.ac.il/~nurit/photosyn/Nitrogen/Rhizobium-legumeassociatio n.htm - Original Message - From: Jose Luiz Moreira Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 9:30 PM Subject: Plant exudates Dear List members. I wonder if anyone of you would have some handy reference showing that plants do exudate protein as stated in Dr Ingham CD material and many lectures that I have seen. I have been questioned by a researcher down here and standing at Dr Ingham´s side have put my reputation at stake since this questioning was done in the middle of a lecture I was doing for a group of organic growers. I thank in advance any help I can get Regards Jose Luiz
Re: roadside weed control
- Original Message - From: Dave Robison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: roadside weed control Merla, you asked about BD weed control. I'm not sure why you have settled on your prep material but I am concerned. I think you should start with the weed slashing, allepath replanting, etc as others have suggested. This is conventional enough that you will not be the subject of so much ridicule by the establishment. My understanding of the Pfeiffer Field spray is that it prepares a green crop for digestion in the soil, substituting for an active compost pile. This may be helpful if you have a green manure crop and you can't arrange to compost it -- at least that is how I've used it in the past. The FS will help the soil to digest the material and produce a healthy soil. So why do that to the roadside area? Won't you be encouraging more fertility and vigorous weed growth? I don't see the point. Just because FS contains elements of many of the other preps doesn't mean it should be applied -- you may not want to be using fertility enhancing preps at all. Not being local, I hesitate to weigh in too strongly, but generally if you can establish suitable native growth that can keep out the weeds, then using a fertility approach that was geared toward the desired plants could be the right thing to do. Certainly if the soil is poor 'not preps alone' should be your watchword, and the use of compost and/or compost tea could be considered. Equipment to deliver compost effectively might include something like a Rexius Express Blower, www.expressblower.com . I was pleasantly surprised to see one here in Quebec and they can mix seed in with the compost at the point of application. La nature deteste la vide, as the French say, nature abhors a vacuum, and if the botanical space is free, an unwanted plant (aka 'weed') could take up residence, which I gather is the feared and loathed possibility to be avoided. Certainly, in turf management the goal is a 'vigorous stand of grass' that resists weed invasion, and this principle can also apply in different botanical settings as well. Hope that helps a bit, Frank Teuton As for the weed peppers, maybe. They can't hurt tho I don't know how effective they are without a knowledgeable practitioner involved. That is, I don't know how much of the human element needs to be there. But I wouldn't emphasize their use -- the establishment is not going to understand. My concern is that failure to achieve results the first year could be damaging to the public's perception of BD. I suggest sticking with conventional organic techniques and try the BD ideas slowly in order to gain an understanding of what's working and why. == Dave Robison
Re: FWD:Saharasia
the goats will still thrive until they have ate every bush and shrub to the bare roots - have seen this in the Australian bush a number of times with ferals - its not the goats fault - they are the most amazing critters to rejuvenate degraded range land when they are controlled in the appropriate numbers - too many uncontrolled and they become the destroyers - desertification is a management problem pure and simple caused by greed. Goats are experts at gettin out of control too !! Lloyd Charles Also caused by a dingo shortage, too, eh? When we kick out the predators we better be ready to fill in their nicheincluding the whole herd control thing.
Re: FWD:Saharasia
. But I do not buy the simplistic notion that grazing leads, willy nilly, to desertification. How 'bout them turnips at Storch's, eh? Frank Teutondances with paradigms
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Manfred, The copper issue seems to me one where analysis of the soil is needed. Here is a site which has a pretty full set of data: http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/sudbury/ccme_canadian/ Because of the use of copper based fungicides in, especially, orchards, there may be some soils with excessive copper in which the use of copper tools would be ill advised. Swine manures frequently contain copper in amounts and forms that are deleterious to earthworms, and soils which are regularly and heavily treated with such manures would probably not benefit from the use of copper tools. OTOH, copper is often low in soils, and in such soils the use of copper tools may add enough copper to make a positive difference. Looking over the tools in question I noted that they were intended for soils *already* under cultivation, not as primary tillage tools. I wonder if there are sources for the sort of strong alloy tools Steve Storch is talking about. I would still likely want to treat a low copper situation with a naturally rich copper source, matrixed in compost/vermicompost, in relatively precise amounts. Copper tools may have virtues beyond the application of copper to the soil, but I would hesitate to use them unless I knew the soil really needed copper. Frank Teuton lks : I checked with Lee Valley Tools, and apparently they don't carry the copper-button Hoe anymore. I've requested info on their old stock. I remember it more as a large copper rivet whose sloughing-off would be much less imposing than sprinkling around filings of copper, methinks. I did not purchase one at the time because i could not reconcile Frank's similar concern with any copper in the ground without a basis in existing presence , and the voluminous amount --suggested by Schauberger-via -Steve --thru the use of several plowshares at a time. Frank, Steve, : does it repulse worms/microlife, or over-ridingly benefit in water-retention properties? Should we be that concerned as Schauberger seemed to be? The proportion of copper in bronze is obviously less than a pure copper contact. Incidentally, Lee Valley also sold longish copper strips -1-inch wide for slugs in the garden for its electro/chemical reaction. ...manfred
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Frank, et al, - Most cattle feeds are supplemented with copper to the point that are considered to be dangerous to sheep (sheep apparently cannot eliminate cooper appropriately and it eventually becomes toxic in their systems). Does this added copper interfere with the decomposition of cow pies in the pasture? I hate to waffle but the short answer is, I don't know. If the levels are too high, then several members of the detritivore community will be inhibited, according to stuff I read from the site I posted to Manfred and the list earlier. If the levels are just right, everything is beautiful. There definitely is enough copper in commercial swine manure to inhibit earthworm (Eisenia fetida and Eisenia andrei) activity. Precomposting the manure apparently changes the valence of the copper rendering it harmless to the worms. If you made a compost or vermicompost with your cattle manure, and then made a tea from that, and applied it to the pasture, it may contain copper adapted microbes that would hasten the transformation of your fresh manure copper into something local fauna could handle. Sounds like a good question to pose to Elaine, among others. Frank
Re: Copper garden tools
Try this one: http://www.implementations.co.uk/
Re: Sharp Sand for potting mix
- Original Message - From: Aurora Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Sharp Sand for potting mix Tony: Rambler writes: to which i add worm pee How _do_ you get those worms to pee in a cup for you? Usually, when I have asked what people mean by 'worm pee', 'worm wee' or similar terms, further explanation has uncovered that what they mean is leachate from a worm bin. Depending on conditions, leachate can be ok, not so ok, or downright bad. Doc Ingham discusses this at: http://www.soilfoodweb.com/multimedia/compostteamanual.html
Re: Wired! Insect deterrents
I know the REAL biocultivator had a little copper rivet attached to it. Gardena has a similar tool with apparently some sort of copper plating, looks like much higher dosing with copper. I view this way of adding copper to soil with some skepticism. How do you know the soil needs copper? What are the real reasons you might be having fungal disease problems? A penny for your thoughts, and all that Frank 'calling a copper' not his first line of defense - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 4:18 PM Subject: Re: Wired! Insect deterrents Hi! Manfred, Could you post a description of the French Hoe, please? Is it related to the French Coil? I bought a couple of those from the American Dowser's site and then made copies for may own use, as I felt they were grossly over priced. The French Coils boosted the vitality of garden plants and they grew better and bad no pests, compared with controls. Gil Manfred Palmer wrote: Tom: Maybe your example relates to the anti-fungal effect of those metals' trace elements on/in the soil. There is a French Hoe sold locally which has an embedded copper disc which eventually would touch most of a cultivated garden. There has been mention made of a plow with the same feature.But , insects.i dunno ...manfred - Original Message - From: Thomas Schley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 8:50 PM Subject: Wired! Insect deterrents Hi Folks, An acquaintance told me she's heard of people using very thin copper or silver wire to ward off insects and maybe other critters. The wire is strung a few inches above the ground and runs up and down the garden rows. Anyone heard of this? What is the principle behind it? I assume it concentrates energy somehow that insects don't like. Since it doesn't seem to be very common it must have some drawbacks? Or is it just one of those magnificent ideas from the 1960s like smoking banana peels? -Tom
Re: BD 508 as inoculant
Hey Allan, Yeah Elaine does be saying that, eh? My broc has always been real happy in the leaf compost/ wood chippy stuff I have here, and Eliot also notes that rototillering in leaves in the Fall is just dandy for brassicas in the spring, and leaves are sort of fungally foodish. Methinks that my foodweb is feasting fast enough to make all the necessary stuff broc is supposed to need, so that the broc roots have their fill at the smorgasbord. Then again, I have Lumbricus terrestris about every six inches or so here. These guys are the Sam Wittinghams of nutrient cycling. (Sam is the world record holder of human powered vehicles, 80+ mph---who says you need gas?) Elaine also says you can't have too many collembola. I hope she is right about that, as I gave out a whole lot of them with my vermicompost samples the other night, and told people to email Elaine if they had any problems.:-) Best part of the presentation was when someone put their nose into my milkcrate that had quasi-finished vermicompost and its makers in it. It smells like spring, she said happily. Spring, and springtails. Life is good. Frank Teuton Hey, Frank - What about the other side of this, Frank? I understood Elaine to say that we don't want to promote fungi in beds used for annual crops, like brocolli. I think we're coming to see all plants living in relationship with fungi, but doesn't Elaine pursue bacteria for annual vegetables at the expense of fungi? -Allan There are some 100,000 species of fungi, of which only a few are actually problematic, as I understand it. http://www.perspective.com/nature/fungi/ Maybe for the next episode of 'Ask Elaine' we could get her to run them down somewhat for us, and suggest the mundane things she knows of that would encourage the bennies and discourage the baddies. Equisetum to promote beneficial fungi, eh? Very interesting. Frank Allan--- Steve - I've always been very happy using 508 as an anti-fungal spray 508 is not anti-fungal...it sets up the environment for beneficial fungus to grow. Sstorch
Fw: [USCC] Re: Own inspector scolds EPA on sludge
Are we all in the same canoe? What was it Sojourner Truth said? If you draw a small circle that excludes me, I will draw a bigger circle that includes you. Frank - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [USCC] Re: Own inspector scolds EPA on sludge I think the whole argument can be summed up in an American Indian proverb which states that, You can't sink the other person's end of the canoe and keep your end afloat. ___ Compost maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council. Opinions are those of the posters alone and do not necessarily represent the USCC, the Foundation or Board of Directors.
Re: need to unsub
One of the best internet tools out there is www.google.com Do a Google search for lists that interest you, such as BD Now! archives, compost archives etc. A bit of delving will get you to this site: http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/biodynamics/ Where the directions for subbing and unsubbing, as well as access to the archives, can be seen: To join the biodynamics electronic mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Leave the subject line blank. Include the following line: subscribe bdnow Your Name in the body of the mail message. Save the letter of acknowledgement. Some discussion lists put subbing and unsubbing info at the bottom of each message automatically. Still, on these lists, you sometimes find people asking how to subscribe/unsubscribe with the information actually staring them in the face. Probably information overload syndrome.road kill on the information superhighway. Frank Teuton---he doesn't 'get' radionics, but finds it entertaining to 'hear' people speaking through their computers about the evils of instrumentation/machines---we all have our little blind spots, now don't we? ;- - Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 8:50 AM Subject: Re: need to unsub Please let me know how to unsub from this list. Thanks. pat in nm Allan, Lorraine wants to subscribe. At one time I had this information saved, but it now is lost. I recall SANET had this info at the bottom (signature) of many posts. Is there some way to make Subscribe/Unsubscribe info readily available? Best, Hugh
Fw: Organic pathogen control in a rotational grazing system
I fired this one off to Elaine just the other day, this list would be a good place for her to answer, I expect... - Original Message - From: Frank Teuton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 8:23 AM Subject: Organic pathogen control in a rotational grazing system Dear Drs Millner and Ingham: I am a collaborator on a farm pasture project involving rotational grazing of sheep in an apple orchard understory context. In rotational grazing the animals are moved periodically from one section (paddock) of pasture to the next, then once adequate pasture regrowth has occurred, returned to the original paddock for further grazing. (Voisin, Savory, Murphy). At a high stocking rate, this can be highly productive, but also present pathogen problems and the related problem of high refusal rates of pasture in zones of repugnance upon regrazing the original paddocks. So, I am looking for acceptable interventions that can be undertaken between grazings of paddocks that would accelerate manure decomposition *and* achieve significant pathogen reduction. Some possibilities under consideration include: Mechanical removal of manure by rake, sweeper and/or vacuum technologies; Harrowing for manure dispersal enhancing UV and biological remediation; Pasturing poultry immediately after sheep (chickens, turkeys) for 'avian bio-harrowing'; Introduction of substantial numbers of epigeic earthworms (Eisenia fetida and Eisenia andrei cultures) either alone or in a topdressing of compost/vermicompost; Topdressing with compost and/or vermicompost; Application of aerobic tea cultures from compost and/or vermicompost (Ingham) http://www.soilfoodweb.com/multimedia/compostteamanual.html Application of fine rock dust (Millner) http://wsare.usu.edu/sare2000/062.htm Irrigation suitable to deep sand pasture, perhaps including syringing (early afternoon application of small amounts of water for stress relief); And similar practices that would be acceptable in an organic production system, and compatible with animal and plant health in this context. Please note that all apples for human consumption in this system are tree harvested; all drops become exclusively animal fodder. This project is in the brainstorming phase and guidance as to general principles, references to literature, and contact information for researchers looking into this topic would be greatly appreciated. Please feel free to suggest other ideas I may be overlooking! Thanks in advance, Frank Teuton
Re: Clinton not Bush
This is as unlikely a place for a discussion of the life and times of Frank Zappa as I could imagine. Imagine writing a paper entitled 'Rudolf Steiner and Frank Zappa: a BD take on the crux of the biscuit'! No, I don't think 'Dynamo Hum' or 'Cosmic Debris' qualify as new age hits, python boots or no python boots. On the other hand, naming your daughter 'Moon Unit' seems a touch more New Agey somehow One thing about Al Gore, he did write a preface to Our Stolen Future, www.ourstolenfuture.org. Frank Teuton---reminding everyone to not eat yellow snow..it is that time of year, eh? - Original Message - From: Lance Howard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Clinton not Bush I believe Zappa was a Republican, although his politics seemed more libertarian. He certainly didn't espouse any new age philosophies as far as I know. (Lance whose garage band played covers of Freak Out songs in the 60s- which is not quite saying I knew FZ and you're no FZ) - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:57 AM Subject: Re: Clinton not Bush I'm not certain change will come from politics and elected officials. I voted for Nadar too, really 'cause of his running mate, and I hated the thought of Gore in office...(being an old hippie (er' I mean a young one) it's hard to forget Tipper's censorship of rock' n' roll. Hey, when chairman Senator Al Gore lost his composure like a child while telling would-have-been-presidential-candidate-in-the-near-future-if-he-had-not-died -of-very-rapidly-growing-prostate-cancer hearing witness Frank Zappa that he had been a 'fan of yours, Mr Zappa, for my entire life,' I have to admit, I had more hope for ol' Al than he ever deserved. I also heard him give a fine address on CSpan recently. In his self-introduction he mentioned his life in politics with a line something like this You know, you either win or your lose and in just a very few instances something other than that happens. Environmentalist he wasn't, but often there was a glimpse of a real human being within the deepsea diving outfit he always seems to be wearing under his suit. -Allan
Re: BD healing Chernobyl?
See also: http://www.livingmachines.com/htm/home.htm Not BD and at a slight tangent but interesting all the same: http://www.ratical.org/LifeWeb/Articles/rushes.html. To quote a little: At eighty-two, Dr. Kaethe Seidel, head of the former Limnology Group of the Max Planck Institute, long nicknamed Bulrush Kate (Die Binzen Kaethe), is a tough-minded, clear-thinking scientist with a remarkable record of pioneering work in a kind of biological wastewater treatment that should be far better known and used than is the case. In the course of a professional career spanning over sixty years, she has demonstrated the effectiveness of naturally growing plants in breaking down ballast substances, transposing toxic into non- toxic substances, destroying pathogenic bacteria, viruses and worm eggs, removing heavy metals, cleaning oil spills, removing salt, neutralizing pH, enriching with oxygen, transforming waste water into drinking water and replenishing groundwater --- all with photosynthesis as the sole energy source.
Re: Anaerobic Bacteria Remediates PCBs
Allan, In keeping with your anti-hydrolic bias, please don't mention anything on this list that has to do with aquatic systems, whether fresh, salt or brackish, eh? No mention of moose, duckweed, Azolla, watercress, or heaven forfend, evil seaweed should be made, because of their quasi-hydroponic proclivities. Let's keep this list on the bovodynamic straight and narrow, buddy. No phytoplankton need apply. All turf, no surf, eh? OK, on a serious note, PCB remediation in a solid state, composting context has been claimed by one Philip Fredericks at EarthCare Technologies Inc, www.ecticompost.com Using high C:N, medium temperature and inoculation with select microbes, he says he has taken materials with substantial loads of things like chlordane, PCBs, PCEs and dioxins to non-detect at parts per trillion. He says, and I quote: The organisms that break down the chlorinated compounds are mesophiles that do their work in mid temp, high C/N ratio, aerobic environs that the Compost Man and other experts still avow cannot be done. In the presence of high nitrogen, these microbes will NOT produce the enzymes that convert these compounds to H2O, CO2 and free chlorine gas. Other researchers are excited about the potential of white rot fungi to remediate recalcitrant materials. I did a bit of web searching the other day and found a number of sites discussing this: See http://www.msu.edu/user/michel/pcbrefs.htm http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1995/Suppl-5/abra-abs.html http://bib.gbf.de/ergebnisbericht/1998/englisch/section_c/c4/c4-1english.htm l http://biology.gcsu.edu/facultyres/Andrei_Barkovskii/facultybarkovskii.htm http://bib.gbf.de/ergebnisbericht/1997/englisch/section_c/c4/c4-1english.htm l http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:byakUN8YDbkC:www.mcilvainecompany.com/s ite/sitenl24/Japanese%2520Firm%2520Uses%2520New%2520Fungus%2520to%2520Treat% 2520Dioxin%2520in%2520Soil.htm+bioremediation+dioxinhl=en http://www.ftns.wau.nl/imb/Publication/journal.html http://www.ftns.wau.nl/imb/research/wrf/xeno.html http://www.ftns.wau.nl/imb/research/wrf.html http://www.wkap.nl/prod/b/0-306-46102-1?a=1 (some cutting and pasting of the above urls may be needed) Another interesting website mentions the potential of earthworms in assisting remediation: http://soilwater.ucr.edu/andrew_profile.htm * I harbor no ill will towards you, Allan, for leaving your down-to-earth terrestrial bias and taking us out to sea in this aquatic anaerobic news item, but in the future please don't tease the hydroponicists with such info when perfectly earthy alternatives seem to be worth digging into. ;-) Frank - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: SFW: Anaerobic Bacteria Remdiates PCBs I never thought of this that seriously until Elaine mentioned it on the list yesterday, today, my co-worker Tim was breaking this story in the Baltimore press -AB Welcome Progress on PCB Decontamination By Tim Zink Distributed 1/10/02 by Blue Ridge Press Words: 838 There may be reason for hope in the effort to contain and minimize the damage to the public health and natural environment inflicted by polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs). After seven years of experiments on PCB-laden sediments taken from the Inner Harbor in Baltimore, Md., a team of researchers reportedly has identified the first strain of anaerobic bacterium known to break down the strong chlorine bonds within these chemical compounds. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, over 1.5 billion pounds of PCBs were manufactured and sold in the U.S. before the 1976 Toxic Substances Control Act banned domestic production and trade of the compounds. Long prized because of their chemical stability, flame resistance and performance as an insulator, PCBs were used in products ranging from electrical equipment to insecticides. But they are now known to carry significant risks. Limited research into a direct causal link between PCB exposure and cancer in humans has come close to finding a smoking gun, but inconsistencies among studies have made clear proof elusive. Still, the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry has concluded that, Based on the evidence of cancer in animals, the Department of Health and Human Services has stated that PCBs may reasonably be anticipated to be carcinogens. Further, a 1996 EPA study found that S PCBs also have significant ecological and human health effects other than cancer, including neurotoxicity, reproductive and developmental toxicity, immune system suppression, liver damage, skin irritation, and endocrine disruption. Which makes the discovery of a PCB-dechlorinating bacterium a major development, especially since communities nationwide are struggling to assess and reduce the levels of PCB contamination which have befallen them. January 2002 saw the start of the second
Re: Soil Foodweb Questions?
Let's be smart enough, though, to actually find her website: www.soilfoodweb.com not .org Frank - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:18 PM Subject: Soil Foodweb Questions? Hey, Friends! I'm very excited to announce that Dr. ELAINE INGHAM has agreed to answer questions posed through BD Now! from now until the end of the day Friday. Regardless of where you are at in working with the soil foodweb techniques, now is the time to get maximum clarification from the leading voice in biological soil testing, custom composting, and compost teas for disease control and fertility. Do me a favor: let's not let Elaine think that we are all too smart to learn more about Elaine's work. If you need some background, check out http://www.soilfoodweb.org Thanks -Allan
Re: Hydoponic BD
Hi Allan, Check out: http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/page2.htm Found at http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/aquaponic.html#speraneo and see also http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/aquaponic.html That would start you out with an organic, hydroponic system working in tandem with fish rearing, that presumably could be manipulated with BD methods. www.google.com is your search engine jumping off point. - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Hydoponic BD I disagree. Use bd wherever you can. A barrel compost made with 500-508 would be an excellent hydroponic tool. This summer I intend to spray the preps on a body of water from my boat to heal the abuse the bay has taken. Like John Mellancamp says, It's what you do and not what you say, if you're not part of the future then get out of the way There is no one on this list that is so friggin' smart that they should discourage anyone from trying anything new. SStorch Steve. It's not 'smart' that's dis-interested in applying biodynamics to industrial system like hydroponics, it's humility. -Allan PS But just to be flexible: in practice, are manure solutions currently being used in hydroponics?
Re: Soil Foodweb Questions?
A current problem for those of us who accept manures, yardwastes, and agricultural materials such as straw from off site, is contamination with xenobiotic substances. A recent arrival on this front is Clopyralid, and its sister compound Picloram which have contaminated commercial composts and university composts in Washington State, Pennsylvania, New Zealand, and California. Clopyralid has been approved in Canada for use in food crops, and presence in foods in amounts as high as 7 parts per million. It is listed as acceptable for barley, oats, wheat, strawberries and various brassicas. And Dow is promoting it for turf use, as well. Those on this list following the classical organic/biodynamic concept of maintaining as much of a closed system on their farms as possible, won't feel this is much of a problem, but others who import organic matter will need to be more careful than ever. I'm thinking here of Roxbury farms and the leaves, of Allan, and of myself and some others in start up phases where imports may be needed. What can you tell us about research that is being done on this problem, what foodweb conditions in compost and soil would help remediate it, and what colleagues and other soil people you know are saying about it? I know Jean-Paul Courtens of Roxbury farms relied on Will Brinton's assurances that composting would generally clean up any contaminants likely to be brought in in yardwastes, leaves, and the likenow this seems to be in question, right? Best regards, Frank Teuton - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:18 PM Subject: Soil Foodweb Questions? Hey, Friends! I'm very excited to announce that Dr. ELAINE INGHAM has agreed to answer questions posed through BD Now! from now until the end of the day Friday. Regardless of where you are at in working with the soil foodweb techniques, now is the time to get maximum clarification from the leading voice in biological soil testing, custom composting, and compost teas for disease control and fertility. Do me a favor: let's not let Elaine think that we are all too smart to learn more about Elaine's work. If you need some background, check out http://www.soilfoodweb.org Thanks -Allan
