subject:"Re\: \[SlimDevices\: Beta\] Standard Search results"

Is this the full text search in 7.9?

Maybe it is.  Didn't realise that was going to be for normal searches.  I 
thought that was something to do with a new search option or advanced search 
and the introduction of songs or albums results mode.  Is there any way to turn 
it off?

Perhaps not so bad if the search results with the search string in the title 
were to appear at the top of the results, but when I search for albums for 
rainbow to quickly locate A rainbow in curved air and end up with 51 album 
matches (eg. A Classic Case by Jethro Tull, Acoustic Love by Various 
Artists, Celestial Ocean by Brainticket, etc), then I find it not as useful 
in this case.

Same if I do it through Touch.  Search  rainbow  My Music  Albums, returns 
the 51 matches, even though I have only 9 albums with rainbow in the title.

I can still use Advanced search, which may be quicker for getting to an album 
that you know you want to play.

Or type more in the search string (like the exact album name).  Only that 
doesn't help when trying to get to Love by The Beatles :-)

Although I am slightly confused.  If I search albums for Love, I only seem to 
get albums with Love in the title (38 hits) less hits than searching for 
rainbow?  I'd expect a lot more if it found albums containing songs with love 
in the title.  If I search for Love in song titles, I get lots of hits 
(capped at 500?).  Maybe it only does full text search if the search string is 
longer than 4 characters?

Full text search may be useful in some situations, but less useful if you know 
what you are trying to find, IMO.  Perhaps would be nice to have Search  
Artist / Album / Songs / Playlist / Full modes.

Phil
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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


That said: it's just as weird to search for a category, usually with a
full-text search you would expect a result-agnostic search returning all
kind of results and then maybe a way to filter what you get. No need for
27 different search boxes in a UI, one would be just fine...



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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


Philip Meyer wrote: 
 
 I'm not convinced I like it too much, TBH.  A useful feature to have,
 but not as the default for Albums search.
 

Sure _you_ are not convinced. But believe me, those other 99.9% of users
out there just cried crap for the last 6 years because Squeezebox did
anything other than full-text search.

It's always difficult to change habits when one's got used to something
but that doesn't change the fact that some things _have_ to change.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


Maybe you could share your
library.db file with me, and I'll look in to the particularities of your
data once I'm back.

Sure, where would you like me to send it?


Send me a link to a downloadable file to michael ät slimdevices dott 
com. Thanks!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


Hm, interesting thing about Love. Does that mean the band Love is
never going to be found or did I misunderstand something?


Ok, title was wrong/too simple. I meant to say album- or track-title 
(for albums or tracks, respectively) or the artist name (for artists). 
The value you'd find in the *SEARCH column for each item.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results

Most likely it is. Your description sounds exactly like a FTS issue.

Yes, I'm sure that's it now I have had a play.

 Perhaps not so bad if the search results with the search string in the title 
 were to appear at the top of the results

That _should_ be the case already. Are you running the latest 7.9 (or at 
least not older than after Christmas)? I did tune the result sorting at 
some point, to exactly do what you were looking for: bring direct 
matches in the title to the top of the list.

I am on latest, pulled down 7.9 yesterday.

I was surprised nobody commented on this behaviour before :-). LMS keeps 
a list of hot keywords, which would return massive result sets. 

Hmmm.

 Full text search may be useful in some situations, but less useful if you 
 know what you are trying to find, IMO.  Perhaps would be nice to have Search 
  Artist / Album / Songs / Playlist / Full modes.

As Pippin mentioned it's much less of a full text vs. normal search 
issue, rather than a how to bring the most relevant hit to the top 
challenge. Yahoo's directory is dead. Everybody is just using Google or 
Bing or whomever's full text search.

I'm not convinced I like it too much, TBH.  A useful feature to have, but not 
as the default for Albums search.

I typically play albums.  I have a lot, so I don't browse for the album I want 
to play, it is quicker to search for the title.

It is much less often that I search for songs, and when i do search for a song 
its because I want to play it, not the whole album, so less often than that 
that I want to find an album that contains a word on a song.

It seemed particularly strange when I selected on Touch interface Search  
Rainbow  My Music  Albums, as I had previously searched for artists and 
songs, which only search by artist title or song title.  Full text search only 
applies to album and playlist search modes?

Maybe you could share your 
library.db file with me, and I'll look in to the particularities of your 
data once I'm back.
Sure, where would you like me to send it?
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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


Hm, interesting thing about Love. Does that mean the band Love is
never going to be found or did I misunderstand something?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


Kind of remember these kind of issues from the infamous The The bug in
iPeng 1.0.1 (iPeng 1.0 at the time did already contain special handling
for The The but 1.0.1 re-introduced a bug that crashed the App if you
had an album by The The and the App Store comments still have some
references to that plus it got me into some nice discussions with Sonos
fanboys at the time...)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results

It's been mentioned in the forums
I don't remember many conversations about search in all the time I've 
participated on the mailing list/forum.

it's probably the #1 argument of people telling me what a crappy,
outdated system the Squeezebox system is.
Really?  Ridiculous!
In the example given for searching hurry love supremes such that Phil Collins 
doesn't come up, what's the harm of searching for hurry love and selecting 
one of the two hits returned.  It's quicker than also typing supremes, 
especially on IR remote or touch keyboard!

Or search for Power of love and get three hits (Frankie Goes To Hollywood, 
Jennifer Rush, Huey Lewis and the News).  Not too taxing to select one of the 
three.
But now it returns Sea Of Love by Cat Power, and curiously 4. Holier Than Thou 
(No Rest For The Best) - No Album - Frankie Goes To Hollywood (why?  power of 
love is not in any of the metadata - I think because it appears in the file 
path?).  So even power of love frankie which is more typing, doesn't reduce 
the result set to one hit.

But people out there outside
this forum use things like Spotify, Google Music, Amazon, SoundCloud,
YouTube etc. and they are used to quite different standards than a
search logic devised a decade ago.

Well SoundCloud doesn't have albums, etc.  Just a flat list of songs for a user 
account, so it's hardly a similar situation.
I get that the modern generation don't play albums, they play songs and build 
playlists of songs.  I probably come from a slightly older generation that 
prefers albums, as many of my albums flow as one continuous piece.  Less of the 
3 min pop song here, much of my music is progressive rock or electronic/ambient 
stuff.  I guess the type of music and style it is listened to reflects on the 
types of searches that are required for a user.  One type of search doesn't fit 
all.

 It would seem better to me to do it similar to other websites and
 applications.  By default Search All, but provide a Search Artists,
 Albums, or Songs that only searches the respective titles.
 
That's the Advanced Search, isn't it?
No. That's only available in web UI, and additional clicks.  Advanced search is 
useful, and previously I would use this to run more specific queries.  But I 
always know if I am looking for an album (most frequently) or an artist or song 
title.

Sure, that can get as complex, detailed, and specific as it wants to be,
that's what it's for.
Also, filters should be applied.

I don't need to find across all types of entities and then filter the larger 
list down, I already know what I'm looking for.

This *is* a topic that has come up many times before in the forum about 
browsing, where people complain about browse hierarchies, sorting, filtering, 
etc, and many people say they don't bother, as they either play random music or 
search for the thing they are looking for rather than page through/scroll a 
large list.

That's probably how the search _should_ look like: you enter one term
and immediately get fulltext results and if that's not what you are
looking for you can apply filters to limit it to certain categories.

That's rather fiddly on different interfaces.  eg. SB2 with IR remote.

That's what iTunes does, for example.

Well, it can be used that way.  Search, get a load of stuff back, and then 
select items to filter results until you find what you want.  But it also 
doesn't prioritise matches, it sticks to the chosen sort order.  Perhaps useful 
if you don't know what you are looking for or just trying to select something 
semi-randomly to play, and I do see merit in it sometimes.

But in iTunes, I still search for a specific artist, album or song title, less 
results returned, and I find what I specifically want quicker.

In iTunes, i want to find In Rainbows by Radiohead:
If I search all for Rainbow, I get 192 songs, ordered and grouped by Album by 
Artist/Year.  Scroll half way down results to find Radiohead/In Rainbows, or in 
column browser, scroll down list of artists to find Radiohead to filter results 
down further.
If I search albums for Rainbow, I get 7 albums, and In Rainbows is 3rd in the 
list.  Much quicker.


I see that I can disable full text search plugin to restore original behaviour. 
 It's a bit radical, because although I prefer the old behaviour by default as 
this is better for my daily needs, the full text search is good and of benefit 
some of the time.

I go back to what I thought earlier; leave Search Aritsts, Albums, Songs as 
they used to work, but add a Search All as the default search that performs 
the full text search.  It's more consistent with all other sites and apps that 
provide this feature.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results

Sure _you_ are not convinced. But believe me, those other 99.9% of users
out there just cried crap for the last 6 years because Squeezebox did
anything other than full-text search.

I can't remember it being mentioned in the forum or bugzilla before.

I'm not against full text search, it will have its uses, but it doesn't help me 
in my day to day use.  If matching album titles appear at the top of the list 
before albums with only song matches, then it shouldn't detract as much as it 
is right now, it's just that I won't benefit 95% of the time by the extra hits 
in the results.  I can live with that.

But it doesn't quite seem to hang together and seems inconsistent with offering 
a type of thing to search for, some being full text, and others not.

It would seem better to me to do it similar to other websites and applications. 
 By default Search All, but provide a Search Artists, Albums, or Songs that 
only searches the respective titles.

Discogs.com search does full text search, but it also provides search for 
releases (which only searches album titles), and artists.
Similarly in iTunes and MusicIP, search by default does full text search 
returning artists, albums or songs.  But selecting to search for albums only 
searches album titles.
I think most sites are like this.

To be honest, I felt the same when Windows 7 Explorer switched to a simplistic 
text search, compared to WinXP search.  Every time I need to do a specific 
search I end up searching the internet to figure out what text monikers and 
wildcard formats I can enter to do the type of search I need; it's ghastly.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


Philip Meyer wrote: 
 
 I can't remember it being mentioned in the forum or bugzilla before.
 

It's been mentioned in the forums, it ranks under the top 10 feature
requests I get for iPeng and - most importantly - it's probably the #1
argument of people telling me what a crappy, outdated system the
Squeezebox system is.
And yes, there are such people. A lot of them. Probably not on this
forum, because why would they come here. But people out there outside
this forum use things like Spotify, Google Music, Amazon, SoundCloud,
YouTube etc. and they are used to quite different standards than a
search logic devised a decade ago.

 
 If matching album titles appear at the top of the list before albums
 with only song matches, then it shouldn't detract as much as it is right
 now, it's just that I won't benefit 95% of the time by the extra hits in
 the results.  I can live with that.
 
Well, I assume you've read my and Michael's comments above: sure it
should be like that.

 
 But it doesn't quite seem to hang together and seems inconsistent with
 offering a type of thing to search for, some being full text, and others
 not.
 
That, too, was also my point above.

 
 It would seem better to me to do it similar to other websites and
 applications.  By default Search All, but provide a Search Artists,
 Albums, or Songs that only searches the respective titles.
 
That's the Advanced Search, isn't it?
Sure, that can get as complex, detailed, and specific as it wants to be,
that's what it's for.
Also, filters should be applied.

That's probably how the search _should_ look like: you enter one term
and immediately get fulltext results and if that's not what you are
looking for you can apply filters to limit it to certain categories.
That's what iTunes does, for example.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results

2015-01-27 Thread JJZolx


Philip Meyer wrote: 
 I'm not convinced I like it too much, TBH.  A useful feature to have,
 but not as the default for Albums search.

Yeah, I tested Full Text Search for a while and eventually came to the
conclusion that I greatly prefer the simpler substring search behavior,
so I disabled the plugin.

I typically use the basic search to find an artist or album, or all
recordings of a particular song. When I say find I don't mean it in
the sense of a search engine ... I use it as the quickest means of
getting to an artist or album. If I want to get to 'Miles Davis' I'll
typically enter 'miles d' or even 's dav' and the search returns just
one artist.

IMO, Full Text Search might be more useful - meaning available for
occasional use instead of being disabled completely - it almost needs to
be selectable as a different type of search. Maybe make it an option to
use for the basic search. Wen it's not being used, make it available
similar to advanced search.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


Well, I used to!  I still get a list of artists that have the word Rainbow in their name, and 
Songs with Rainbow in their title.  However, the Albums results includes albums where there are 
songs that contain Rainbow, irrespective of the album title.


I think this is the result of a bug I introduced in the recent 
performance improvements for sub-libraries. If you were using a 
pre-Christmas build, the sort order would likely be correct.


I'll look into this asap.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results

Fulltext search is optional. Just disable the plugin if you don't like it.



Am 28.01.2015 um 02:51 schrieb Phil Meyer s...@hergest.demon.co.uk:

 It's been mentioned in the forums
 I don't remember many conversations about search in all the time I've 
 participated on the mailing list/forum.
 
 it's probably the #1 argument of people telling me what a crappy,
 outdated system the Squeezebox system is.
 Really?  Ridiculous!
 In the example given for searching hurry love supremes such that Phil 
 Collins doesn't come up, what's the harm of searching for hurry love and 
 selecting one of the two hits returned.  It's quicker than also typing 
 supremes, especially on IR remote or touch keyboard!
 
 Or search for Power of love and get three hits (Frankie Goes To Hollywood, 
 Jennifer Rush, Huey Lewis and the News).  Not too taxing to select one of the 
 three.
 But now it returns Sea Of Love by Cat Power, and curiously 4. Holier Than 
 Thou (No Rest For The Best) - No Album - Frankie Goes To Hollywood (why?  
 power of love is not in any of the metadata - I think because it appears in 
 the file path?).  So even power of love frankie which is more typing, 
 doesn't reduce the result set to one hit.
 
 But people out there outside
 this forum use things like Spotify, Google Music, Amazon, SoundCloud,
 YouTube etc. and they are used to quite different standards than a
 search logic devised a decade ago.
 Well SoundCloud doesn't have albums, etc.  Just a flat list of songs for a 
 user account, so it's hardly a similar situation.
 I get that the modern generation don't play albums, they play songs and build 
 playlists of songs.  I probably come from a slightly older generation that 
 prefers albums, as many of my albums flow as one continuous piece.  Less of 
 the 3 min pop song here, much of my music is progressive rock or 
 electronic/ambient stuff.  I guess the type of music and style it is listened 
 to reflects on the types of searches that are required for a user.  One type 
 of search doesn't fit all.
 
 It would seem better to me to do it similar to other websites and
 applications.  By default Search All, but provide a Search Artists,
 Albums, or Songs that only searches the respective titles.
 That's the Advanced Search, isn't it?
 No. That's only available in web UI, and additional clicks.  Advanced search 
 is useful, and previously I would use this to run more specific queries.  But 
 I always know if I am looking for an album (most frequently) or an artist or 
 song title.
 
 Sure, that can get as complex, detailed, and specific as it wants to be,
 that's what it's for.
 Also, filters should be applied.
 I don't need to find across all types of entities and then filter the larger 
 list down, I already know what I'm looking for.
 
 This *is* a topic that has come up many times before in the forum about 
 browsing, where people complain about browse hierarchies, sorting, filtering, 
 etc, and many people say they don't bother, as they either play random music 
 or search for the thing they are looking for rather than page through/scroll 
 a large list.
 
 That's probably how the search _should_ look like: you enter one term
 and immediately get fulltext results and if that's not what you are
 looking for you can apply filters to limit it to certain categories.
 That's rather fiddly on different interfaces.  eg. SB2 with IR remote.
 
 That's what iTunes does, for example.
 Well, it can be used that way.  Search, get a load of stuff back, and then 
 select items to filter results until you find what you want.  But it also 
 doesn't prioritise matches, it sticks to the chosen sort order.  Perhaps 
 useful if you don't know what you are looking for or just trying to select 
 something semi-randomly to play, and I do see merit in it sometimes.
 
 But in iTunes, I still search for a specific artist, album or song title, 
 less results returned, and I find what I specifically want quicker.
 
 In iTunes, i want to find In Rainbows by Radiohead:
 If I search all for Rainbow, I get 192 songs, ordered and grouped by Album 
 by Artist/Year.  Scroll half way down results to find Radiohead/In Rainbows, 
 or in column browser, scroll down list of artists to find Radiohead to filter 
 results down further.
 If I search albums for Rainbow, I get 7 albums, and In Rainbows is 3rd in 
 the list.  Much quicker.
 
 
 I see that I can disable full text search plugin to restore original 
 behaviour.  It's a bit radical, because although I prefer the old behaviour 
 by default as this is better for my daily needs, the full text search is good 
 and of benefit some of the time.
 
 I go back to what I thought earlier; leave Search Aritsts, Albums, Songs as 
 they used to work, but add a Search All as the default search that performs 
 the full text search.  It's more consistent with all other sites and apps 
 that provide this feature.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results


I think Michael will have to comment on the rules for sorting the
results. That's usually the complicated aspect of full text search,
getting the sorting right.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results

Is this the full text search in 7.9?

Maybe it is.

Most likely it is. Your description sounds exactly like a FTS issue.

Perhaps not so bad if the search results with the search string in the title
were to appear at the top of the results

That _should_ be the case already. Are you running the latest 7.9 (or at
least not older than after Christmas)? I did tune the result sorting at
some point, to exactly do what you were looking for: bring direct
matches in the title to the top of the list.

Although I am slightly confused. If I search albums for Love, I only seem to get
albums with Love in the title (38 hits) less hits than searching for rainbow? I'd expect a lot
more if it found albums containing songs with love in the title. If I search for Love
in song titles, I get lots of hits (capped at 500?). Maybe it only does full text search if the
search string is longer than 4 characters?

I was surprised nobody commented on this behaviour before :-). LMS keeps
a list of hot keywords, which would return massive result sets.
Typically these are words like the or as you experienced, Love. In
this case the search would _only_ return hits in the title, and none of
the matches in artist names etc. This is simply to guarantee a quick
response time, as processing hundreds or thousands of hits obviously is
much slower than only a few dozens (or less hundreds :-)).

Full text search may be useful in some situations, but less useful if you know
what you are trying to find, IMO. Perhaps would be nice to have Search
Artist / Album / Songs / Playlist / Full modes.

As Pippin mentioned it's much less of a full text vs. normal search
issue, rather than a how to bring the most relevant hit to the top
challenge. Yahoo's directory is dead. Everybody is just using Google or
Bing or whomever's full text search. Maybe you could share your
library.db file with me, and I'll look in to the particularities of your
data once I'm back.

Michael
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Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Standard Search results