had a working implementation to play with, I might try it
myself, but I don't, and I don't have the time to set one up and try.
- Heikki
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effective to choose one player randomly, and make the
other a mirror image of it? That way, every game would give some
information of the relevance of one setting. At least in the very
beginning...
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with it, I'd love to hear of any results.
- Heikki
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be slower than necesary, but maybe that would even out
with many enough done in parallel.
-H
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OR operation.
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first. Most likely it does
not happen on the first move. But if that is the game-deciding point, it
makes sense to give credit to who ever got to play it.
-H
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;-)
-H
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much handicap to
give, and how to analyze the results. The handicap-giving program can play
under a different name, so that for CGOS it looks like a totally separate
entry, with its own rating.
-H
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debug it.
Good idea! I have used cgos to debug my half-finished bots before, and felt a
bit bad about wasting the time of more serious bots.
-H
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,
such as perhaps sluggo.
Fine!
-H
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to sucha
list...
At this point I don't care for performance, multi-threading, or even time
controls. All I want is a simple implementation of MC that is easy to read
and to tweak, so I can see if my idea works at all.
- Heikki
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at the moment
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On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:51:14PM -0200, Mark Boon wrote:
On Feb 3, 2009, at 2:34 PM, Heikki Levanto wrote:
All in all, I think this is a messy and unreliable solution to a
problem I
have not seen happening.
For what it is worth I vote against client-side time controls.
Maybe you
move does not get considered. That sounds tricky, and the
advantage from such is slight, he can be a tiny bit more confident of keeping
his moyo...
- Heikki
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work, it lost 2 out of
the 3 games I played :-)
So sorry, but as far as I can see, three games don't prove very much. Could
you please run at least 10 games more, before jumping into conclusions.
-H
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such a position look pretty
bad, and direct the program away from it - which would most often be good
playing style anyway.
- H
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makes. Never taking sente to play elsewhere. Sounds like a receipe
for a disaster to me. But then again, I am only a kyu-level player, so I may
be wrong...
-H
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veto any move *not* on the 3rd, 4th, or 5th line,
unless there is a stone within the limit distance.
Or, to phrase it in other words:
- Any move on 3-4-5 line is OK
- Any move close than 2 or 3 points from any stone is OK
- All other moves are not OK
-H
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on the board. If memory serves, David Fotland mentioned this
at the Portland Congress. Some players favor opening moves on the fifth
line, however.
And the occasional funny guy playing the center point...
-H
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didn't expect it, and not too bad even against those who
knew it... Not something I would dare to play in a serious tournament, but
then again, I don't play serious tournaments these days.
-H
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optimizing such can be harder... But when writing in C or C++, it does make
sense.
-H
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like to see hard evidence. But not badly enough to put in the
necessary work to get some ;-)
- H
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the program can make.
Hope that explains something of the mystery
Regards
Heikki
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become much less likely to be expanded.
I am sure someone who understands statistics will soon jump in and correct my
explanation :-)
- Heikki
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are now, I get that need satisfied all right.
-H
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, and not being in the academia, I am not
publishing papers. I am just a programmer who likes to dabble with
programming Go, when other interests don't claim all of my spare time.
- Heikki
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, and will resign on
the spot. I think it will be a long time before programs can do that with
confidence...
-H
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. And if your search tree is large enough, once-in-a-thousand
situations occur all the time...
-H
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to the user.
- Heikki
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...
-H
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a similar page for pure MC programs (without
uct), so that we beginning developers could check that portion of our code
against known results?
-H
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away.
Of course, if a program knows it is going to loose, it might as well
resign.
-H
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that all do?
I have so little time for go programming that I would not like to waste my
time on unnecessary 'security'!
- Heikki
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and give no extra security
for anyone.
Sorry, I am in a bad mood today.
-H
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). And/or to get a few 'in-between' data points near the
corner. Or to make the MC simulations weaker/stronger, and see how that
affects the performance of the UCT programs... If I had all the machine
power, and nothing better to do...
-H
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a programming job! Wish I had the time and energy
for that!
- H
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On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 04:35:18PM -0500, Don Dailey wrote:
Heikki Levanto wrote:
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 03:23:35PM -0500, Don Dailey wrote:
Having said that, I am interested in this. Is there something that
totally prevents the program from EVER seeing the best move
to support.
- Heikki
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in the
playouts. Even then, the UCT tree has to extend to the point where this kind
of situation can occur, before the program can see it.
- Heikki
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a better evaluation function helps an UCT program, but more on lower
levels of play, where its effects are greater. That there can be changes in
the scalability of UCT programs. We (may) have identified one. Will there be
another lurking somewhere?
- Heikki
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the new Mogos join the study and
start producing results.
- Heikki
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with the risk that more data may invalidate my observation...
- Heikki
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play weaker opponents,
and weakest one can only play stronger ones. The programs near the top are
still likely to meet weaker opponents (and vice versa). Still, that is one
possible explanation for the change I see in the curves.
-H
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Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst heikki (at) lsd (dot
will do some statistics later on win/loss results for white and black
at various ELO windows.It would interesting if we discovered that
one color was winning a LOT of games - it would indicated that the play
is getting really strong as David Fotland suggested.
Good idea!
- Heikki
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Heikki
don't (yet?) have an UCT program, so I can not test this. Some day when I
have one, I will try to see how much it will help or hurt to try all legal
moves in the UCT portion... If someone else tries it before, let us all know!
- Heikki
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, or 4-4.
-H
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in the UCT-part
because when I watch the program play I can see mistakes in pruning which
otherwise only would be unseen in the playouts.
That is a valid point. Not to the theoretical discussion, but in practical
everyday life!
-H
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. Progress is slow, but it does happen!)
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for me to speculate on that, as my engine isn't even
playing legal moves yet... Premature optimizing, and all that.
- Heikki
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move (provided that it is a real eye and not a false one).
Can anyone come with concrete examples?
- Heikki
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, and then sacrifice two stones. Some
nakade shapes also require sacrificing more than one stone...
- Heikki
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to optimize on that level - which is good
enough. But in theory...
- Heikki
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of them turns out
to be useful.
- Heikki
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that none of us (including you :-) is
guilty of wrong thinking.
Regards
Heikki
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is done to find the commands...
- Heikki
who does not plan to do much more in the language war...
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played stone. This sounds wasteful, but I am not sure if it would not be
slower to isolate the neighbouring strings first, and then test only those.
One more experiment where I didn't get very far...
-H
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On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 11:35:43AM -0500, Jason House wrote:
On Nov 13, 2007 11:23 AM, Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There are pathological cases where this has to loop many times, flood
filling the one liberty to a long chain of stones, but those should be
rare.
This was my
of play does not improve much over 5000 play-outs, anyway.
-H
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in advance (or at least empty ones), and pick
from that list. This list can be maintained incrementally during the MC
simulation.
Still, I like your style, and may yet decide to take advantage of your
library instead of LibEGO at least in some of my experiments.
- Heikki
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.
There are only relatively small differences between most modern languages,
btu their libraries tend be vary more. Also, learning the language basics
should not take long for any experienced programmer, but to learn the
proper way to use the libraries, that can take much longer.
-H
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names only at run time, if you happen to call that function... As a
C-programmer, I want my compiler to catch silly mistakes for me, when ever
possible.
Regards
Heikki
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that it would take
a bit of programming work to implement, so I am not making any demands...
Regards
Heikki
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simply define an extension to gtp - optional of course -
for the same kind of purpose, because the 'name' command is already used by
GUIs for a displayable name. 'program_comment' perhaps?
-H
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Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst heikki (at) lsd (dot) dk
that people can see it
all...
I still think using the gtp 'name' command for this is not optimal, as it is
also used in GUIs to set the program name.
Hope I clarified things more than I confused...
-H
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.
-H
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program again, I have some more
ideas to improve simple MC things. UCT etc will have to wait until I can see
what happens with those...
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to experiment
with the thing. Google on 'Lew libEGO' and you should find him.
- Heikki
P.S. If any of the above is not right, I am sure the better informed people
will rush in to correct me. I welcome that!
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and there, but just play
where ever - often leading to death and destruction among its own groups.
-H
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to everyone
(which I have not yet seen), I would stuill urge people to consider those
benefits carefully, and to weigh them against the problems that arise from
having two incompatible standards.
Just my personal opinion, of course.
- Heikki
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, and what do they get out of it?
If it has happened once, it might happen again. What would help the idea
along the way?
-H
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to something like understanding sente?
And to the problems of local sente vs. global sente?
-H
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, but on the other hand, it does not consider the
latest techniques that have shown some real promise, indicating that it may
be underestimating the future programs... Maybe there are other inventions
coming up in the near future that make the optimism more justified?
-H
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Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst
their
results! The rest of us believe such a function is (almost?) impossible to
write.
-H
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language).
If not, I may consider doing something like that myself. No point in
duplicating such work, if it is already done, and easily available, though.
Regards
Heikki
P.S. Not trying to start any sort of language war here...
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else?
Well, I considered writing it in ETA [1], but my work situation is such that
soon I am expected to know python, so I might as well use computer go as an
excuse to learn it.
- Heikki
[1] http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/index.html
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On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 04:22:08PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
On Mon, 2007-08-27 at 21:35 +0200, Heikki Levanto wrote:
Some mail servers are starting to use greylisting, which
intentionally delays mails that have sender-recipient pairs they
have not seen before - this fouls a lot of spamming
/stderr, no matter how
much cgos3.tcl tries to redirect it. Of course you can also capture it
in a file, and perhaps run a tail -f on it...
-Heikki
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computer
will find you silly not passing earlier, but so be it.
-H
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to the README, on how
to add a program (say GNU Go) as a player.
Regards
Heikki
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On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 04:33:47PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
Here is how you might set up gnugo:
Thanks! that certainly looks enough to get me going.
- Heikki
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of estimating the expected length of the
game. Much easier to use something like 2% of the remaining time on each
move.
-Heikki
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. The
best it can do, is to adjust those again for the next move, if this one
turned out to take more or less time.
-Heikki
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, and worrying about them probably costs more than
it can ever give.
- Heikki
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. After that, I'm asking if various
programmers would be willing to run this test, and publish the results?
- Heikki
(who has no time to debug his own program...)
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both it and the anchor GnuGo.
For some reason it starts at a rating of 1800, which may be a bit too
much for it.
Some day (soon?) when I get my Halgo debugged, I may put it up on 19x19
as well, just to see how badly it does there.
-H
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Lew's libego unmodified.
- Heikki
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is already in the first one.
Maybe the server could send those messages a bit less often too?
Thanks again for cgos, it has turned out to be a fun thing. I am again
playing with my 'halgo' series, going for some sort of search next...
Regards
Heikki
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there be interest in a tournament system for 19x19 programs?
Something like 30 mins / player sounds like a reasonable extrapolation.
-H
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as the beginners tournament,
where it is easy to test new ideas in quick games, and 19x19 as the
serious tournament where we can see how good computers are at playing
the game like we humans do.
Just my humble opinion, of course.
- Heikki
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,
processor, or even another computer.
-H
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get about equal scores on an
empty board, as should all 4-4 points, etc. Would that not be a good
indication that the program 'understands' the situation, instead of just
randomly hitting on a good move?
- Heikki
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On Sun, Apr 08, 2007 at 08:48:03AM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
On Sun, 2007-04-08 at 11:24 +0200, Heikki Levanto wrote:
Weaker players can not estimate the score until very late in the game.
Not with enough precision, anyway. Thus, most of the time they have no
idea if they are winning
teh
epsilons summed up, but in the endgame, when all moves lead to a
certain victory, the program prefers a win by a larger margin.
My Halgo does that (in a otherwise regular MC), and the feel of the
endgame is clearly more reasonable than without.
-H
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Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst
as the anchor, but
floating freely.
- Heikki
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Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst heikki (at) lsd (dot) dk
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On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:43:23PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 16:02 -0700, Christoph Birk wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Heikki Levanto wrote:
P.S. How about starting a new round when (say) 75% of the players are
free?
That introduces a bias towards pairing faster
, I started a few games that were
rejected because illegal moves. yet the listing shows no Illegal games
for Halgo. Something wrong there?
-Heikki
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Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst heikki (at) lsd (dot) dk
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On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 12:14:37PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 15:31 +0200, Heikki Levanto wrote:
I see a few games with B+Illegal, or suchlike. But I remember when I
was fooling with my stderr problem, I started a few games that were
rejected because illegal moves. yet
that should not matter so much. Maybe the
time should only be added after a player has passed once?
I am still not sure about all the consequences of this, but I don't see
it as a major problem, one way or the other.
- Heikki
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