Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Deadline passed and I see we've been hoodwinked by Dell. While XP Home is now no longer available thay are selling PCs with XP Pro on the hard drive and a Vista DVD in the box. So this is actually an even better buy than the deal they terminated last week. Two versions of the OS for the price of one. The engineer in me hates being lied to by vendors. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I guess I wasn't following this as closely as you, hoodwinked how? Mike On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deadline passed and I see we've been hoodwinked by Dell. While XP Home is now no longer available thay are selling PCs with XP Pro on the hard drive and a Vista DVD in the box. So this is actually an even better buy than the deal they terminated last week. Two versions of the OS for the price of one. The engineer in me hates being lied to by vendors. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
As I read it retail sales of XP ended this month. It is still allowed to be sold with system till sometime this fall. Also it will be allowed to be included on economy systems. (Under a certain dollar value) It is closer to MS caving into demand that Dell misleading. I believe that MS has changed their tune many times this year on XP. (Also note Tom you need to be buying Business systems I think to get what you are getting, retail out the door systems do not have XP on them.) Stewart At 07:34 PM 6/26/2008, you wrote: I guess I wasn't following this as closely as you, hoodwinked how? Mike On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
To me, it looks like the game is played: Buy MS OS--whatever the latest version. Use all MS products on it (browsers, email programs, Office). Repeat about every 3 years. I'm not sure this is a fair analysis, Sue. As I mentioned earlier, I'm still using, with Vista, software that was written decades ago, some of it for DOS. Certainly XP ran almost everything that worked with earlier versions of Windows. There was virtually no XP-only software until fairly recently, when a tipping point was reached: XP's market share got to the point where software could use features that are only in XP and still sell well enough to make a profit. Now, Vista is a bit different. Some older software won't run. That is mostly (and I do say mostly) due to the enhanced security: the software is trying to do things that the security changes in Vista won't allow. But even so, MOST software does work fine. Certainly it's easy to use non-MS products in the categories you mentioned: Firefox, Eudora, and Open Office or Corel Office all work fine (I'm not sure what problems you're referring to with Eudora--the Eudora people say there are none). I'll tell you how -I- think the game is played: Slam MS mercilessly (and justifiably) for XP vulnerabilities. Then slam MS for fixing them in Vista because older software that did unsafe things isn't allowed to run any more. Best, Chris * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
How many horses is enough for Vista to run well? Which version of Vista? Well, I'm running Vista Ultimate with an Intel Core2 (dual processor) at 2.4GHz and 2GB of RAM. Not exactly top-of-the-line stuff any more... Chris * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
And it's certainly more secure. Chris How do you know for sure? My impression of improved security is tighter digital rights management and IT's tighter control over what the user can do (in a corporate environment). I've never had an infection and my Windows 2000 is still running fine. On a new, fast machine with SATA drives. No, I've never had an infection either, but that doesn't mean that Windows was secure. It just means that we were both careful about what we did. :) To begin with, there are controls on what software can and can't do that did not exist in XP (which is the primary cause of some older software not working right, by the way). Under XP and earlier versions, any program could, for example, monkey with critical parts of the registry and even replace parts of the OS without much difficulty. Not good. Under Vista, these kind of changes are locked down unless you have sufficient rights AND you give permission. Additionally, changes were made such that it is practical for the first time to NOT run all the time as an administrator. This makes a huge difference in security. But rather than my going into a list, your best bet is probably to do a Google search on Vista security. I ran across these two non-MS articles pretty quickly: http://www.vistahunt.com/truth-about-windows-vista-security-revealed.html http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/5538 I'm not sure why you mention DRM, which is unrelated to computer security. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I just migrated my parents (late 70's, early 80's) from their 10-year old, first edition iMac to the latest model iMac. Yes, they are learning OS X 10.5 after using OS 8.6. That said, I told them not to buy any software, but to download Firefox and OpenOffice. The free, open-source software is reliable and will handle all of their modest needs. They paid less for their 20-inch LCD iMac than they paid for the original iMac. They are through with Microsoft Office, through with buying any software. Their requirements are light, but I bet most people don't have much in the way of software requirements for simple home use. They used that old computer for ten years until it died - dead power supply, and I told them it was time to replace it. (Business would be another analysis.) It is time for Apple to pay attention to compatibility again, though. My four year old Power Mac dual-G5 will run 10.5, but probably not 10.6, which will likely be Intel-only. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- To me, it looks like the game is played: Buy MS OS--whatever the latest version. Use all MS products on it (browsers, email programs, Office). Repeat about every 3 years. My son is pushing me to buy a Mac. Is the situation the same with them? I see no reason to switch to a more expensive system if I have to keep replacing them too. The old Apple was very long-term stable and I often supported clients that were running a range of Mac OSs that spanned 10 or more years. Old software ran fine on new machines and new OSs. Recently that has not been the case. Apple's transition to OS X forced changes at a much faster pace than Mac users were used to. Over about 6 years the old systems became hard to integrate with newer systems. Before we could catch a breath Apple changed processors. Now we have a situation where the old software won't even run on the new hardware. Apple is pushing us through this transition at an even faster pace than the OS X transition. Will things slow down now? Or will Apple decide that this rapid pace is better for them? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I ran the upgrade adviser and it shows only 15 of my applications won't work with Vista -- better than I had expected. There were no device problems except for Bluetooth which won't work with Vista. I'm surprised that there were that many. That was certainly not my own experience. When you say won't work, is that actually what the report says? Not sure what you mean about Bluetooth. Bluetooth won't work with Vista isn't an accurate statement (MS sells Bluetooth keyboards, for example), so there must be more information than that? Chris * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Heh, I still have an old road apple- Performa 6300 in basement that maxes out at os9.2. My G3 stopped doing anything a few months ago. My guess is a power supply but I haven't been motivated enough to find one. I haven't fired up the Mac Plus in ages but it worked the last time I tried. IMS the plus maxed out at system 7, I think I pitched the original 128K mother board and back of the case when we moved about 10 years ago. I still say Apple willingness to leave older hard ware in the wake makes them more flexible than M$ who still try to service a twenty year old PC with the same software that is expected to run on a Quad Core. Perhaps if M$ were smarter they would set up virtual machines in a new vista installation to mimic older OS when needed instead of a one size fits all OS. On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just migrated my parents (late 70's, early 80's) from their 10-year old, first edition iMac to the latest model iMac. Yes, they are learning OS X 10.5 after using OS 8.6. That said, I told them not to buy any software, but to download Firefox and OpenOffice. The free, open-source software is reliable and will handle all of their modest needs. They paid less for their 20-inch LCD iMac than they paid for the original iMac. They are through with Microsoft Office, through with buying any software. Their requirements are light, but I bet most people don't have much in the way of software requirements for simple home use. They used that old computer for ten years until it died - dead power supply, and I told them it was time to replace it. (Business would be another analysis.) It is time for Apple to pay attention to compatibility again, though. My four year old Power Mac dual-G5 will run 10.5, but probably not 10.6, which will likely be Intel-only. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- To me, it looks like the game is played: Buy MS OS--whatever the latest version. Use all MS products on it (browsers, email programs, Office). Repeat about every 3 years. My son is pushing me to buy a Mac. Is the situation the same with them? I see no reason to switch to a more expensive system if I have to keep replacing them too. The old Apple was very long-term stable and I often supported clients that were running a range of Mac OSs that spanned 10 or more years. Old software ran fine on new machines and new OSs. Recently that has not been the case. Apple's transition to OS X forced changes at a much faster pace than Mac users were used to. Over about 6 years the old systems became hard to integrate with newer systems. Before we could catch a breath Apple changed processors. Now we have a situation where the old software won't even run on the new hardware. Apple is pushing us through this transition at an even faster pace than the OS X transition. Will things slow down now? Or will Apple decide that this rapid pace is better for them? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Thanks for that info, Tom. It sounds like Apple has decided to play the game too. Can you imagine a market share if someone ever decided to build a good machine and support it for more than a few years? Strange stories this week at Macintouch.com of salesfolk at the Apple Store downselling. HQ has been telling the salesfolk not to upsell and to make the effort to match the computer to the customer's needs. Some salesfolk have taken this to heart and are asking customers if they really need what they asked for. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I've seen people hang on to the strangest software...just out of fear of change. Mike On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It might not be. MS bought some very strong lines of professional business software years ago, one of them a AR ledger program that a lot of businesses used. Stewart At 08:54 PM 6/16/2008, you wrote: I'd like to know what software it is. But I should probably know better than to ask, because often the answer is some antique POS you couldn't _give_ away today, but the clients are real luddites. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Jeff makes a valid point and my company is one example. We have many applications used across various sectors and the company does not support multiple OS versions, testing, etc. The company buys and reconfigures every computer to a specific XP configuration. At some point, they will probably switch to Vista, but I also hear about changes to maybe support OS X. Multiple operating system support is easier if they can interface to corporate applications through the browser, which is becoming the case; most applications have been redesigned so that desktops and laptops get to them through their browser. Until last year, the company even frowned at Firefox because the stupid web apps were too tied to IE. Now, even that is improving and Firefox is supported. It is becoming easier, but is not yet easy or cheap to support multiple versions, let alone multiple operating systems. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Vista doesn't have significant enough business value for me to go through the hassle of upgrading all the desktops to Vista. Here's something I don't understand, Jeff. Why is there a need for upgrading all the desktops to Vista? This is basically the same argument that Eric makes in another message when he mentions a potentially super expensive platform change. Why upgrade everything at once? Why not just replace XP machines with Vista machines on their regular replacement cycle? I've heard some comments about IT issues with maintaining two OSs, but I don't really see it. It's just doesn't seem that hard. They aren't THAT different. Stewart's later message says: As [schools] upgrade they go with the latest OS, but they cannot afford to just upgrade machines at will. That strikes me as the sensible way, if not the only way, to go. How many organizations of ANY kind can afford to upgrade everything at once? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Quoting Chris Dunford [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yeah. Get a Mac. I realize that many folks think they are forever bound to a MS operating system of one flavor or another. Such a burden. Nobody suggested this. It's that the get a Mac response to almost any Windows question is old, tired, and not at all helpful. Well, he got about as much help as he gives in similar situations. And suggesting it to Tom Piwowar, Mac guy and king of the Apple fan-boys (if I may use his phrase), is surely carrying coals to Newcastle... Yes. It's ironical, isn't it. Steve Jobs love child asking how to get away from Vista. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Computerworld posted an FAQ on Micro$oft's XP/Vista deadline here: http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasicart icleId=9098418 Thank you, Mark Snyder * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? Yeah. Get a Mac. While this suggestion was offered in jest (and got stomped on by some humorless Windows types), I'd like to point out that it is potentially a real solution to Tom's problem. I occasionally run either Windows 98 or 2000, or one of two flavors of Linux on my MacBook Pro using Parallels virtualization software. The OSes run at near native speed when I use them, and I can suspend a virtual machine and resume it at the point where I left it whenever I want. I can also bookmark the state of the VM at some point of time (or as many points in time as I want), and go back to an earlier state if I discover that I need to. Intel Macs have a variety of virtualization software options (I know of Parallels, VMware, VirtualBox and QEMU). Parallels and VMware appear to share the most features, and have modes that lets it appear as if the guest OS is running the machine instead of running in its own window, and they have tools that let you clone a real hard disk into your VM, making it easy to keep using a specialized configuration without having to recreate it from scratch. I don't know if VirtualBox or QEMU can do this directly, but they can use use VMs created by VMware, so there is a potential migration path. My experience with parallels is that it can accommodate most common hardware, so as long as the problem is with older software but not unusual hardware, virtualization could certainly be an answer. VMware and VirtualBox also have versions that run on top of Windows or Linux, so you don't really have to get a Mac. VirtualBox is mostly free, and Parallels and VMware have free trial periods. David * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I think you've misdiagnosed Tom's problem entirely. Hint: It has nothing at all to do with computers or virtual machines. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:26 AM, David K Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While this suggestion was offered in jest (and got stomped on by some humorless Windows types), I'd like to point out that it is potentially a real solution to Tom's problem. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Yeah. Get a Mac. While this suggestion was offered in jest (and got stomped on by some humorless Windows types... Oddly enough, I'm not actually considered all that humorless by my friends, despite my Windows-type-busboy status. The problem is that this particular joke was officially classified No Longer Funny on the date of its one millionth occurrence in this list. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
And if it (the software) still works, defined as doing what you need it to do, it should be possible to replace the hardware without replacing all the apps, etc. Matthew On Jun 16, 2008, at 10:43 PM, Sue Cubic wrote: It would make me very happy to be able to continue using what I already have...at least until the hardware breaks down! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
On Jun 17, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: The problem is that this particular joke was officially classified No Longer Funny on the date of its one millionth occurrence in this list. What I am about to say is said in jest. However, that does not mean that part of it is untrue. Perhaps a reason that the Get a Mac joke is no longer funny is due to the fact that after over a million such suggestions, no one has ever countered with Get Windows. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
What's wrong with Vista? Having to struggle to access many things that should be transparently available.. db: I just noticed this... I'm curious, what sorts of things that should be transparently available do you find that you have to struggle to access? Chris * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 01:03 PM 06/17/2008 -0400, Matthew Taylor wrote And if it (the software) still works, defined as doing what you need it to do, it should be possible to replace the hardware without replacing all the apps, etc. The problem is that some of my software won't work on Vista. I've tried it on other machines. My biggest complaint is all the problems that Eudora/Vista present--even the latest version of Eudora. Parts of my web page software work and parts don't. Those are ones I've tried. So how do I replace the hardware and still use software that I've paid good money for over the years? I don't use IE at all, but am hearing that new releases of that aren't working well on anything BUT Vista. It would just be nice if we didn't have to keep replacing things all the time. To me, it looks like the game is played: Buy MS OS--whatever the latest version. Use all MS products on it (browsers, email programs, Office). Repeat about every 3 years. My son is pushing me to buy a Mac. Is the situation the same with them? I see no reason to switch to a more expensive system if I have to keep replacing them too. I just traded in my 10 y/o vehicle for something more economical. But it still used the same gas, I could still get service on it, and mainly it still got me where I wanted to go. Imagine if everyone had to buy a new car every few years because the old one was obselete! Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 04:28 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: Date:Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:27:32 -0400 From:Sue Cubic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Forced to Vista? The problem is that some of my software won't work on Vista. I've tried it on other machines. My biggest complaint is all the problems that Eudora/Vista present--even the latest version of Eudora. I use the paid version of Eudora (7.1.0.9) and have had no problems. I have 18 email profile address's that I send and receive from daily. I probably have thousands of messages from the late 80's when I first used Eudora 2.? Of course I have plenty of disk space and 2gigs of ram for Vista Ultimate. but I also have run it on a lesser computer and vista business. Outside of that, I have had to update much of my software to be able to work well with Vista but I never had to update GWBASIC intrepeter or the Quickbasic compiler. I updated Nero to 8 and my ws_ftp pro to the latest. I remember having to upgrade many of my programs when I first went from DOS to windows 2.1 and heard the exact same bitching and moaning. but they got over it.. Rich * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 11:57 AM 6/16/2008, Tony B wrote: To reiterate: The much ballyhooed problems with Vista were never actually problems with the OS, but rather, problems with support from the myriad of manufacturers that [are supposed to] support the OS. Yeah, but Microsoft could have put in a translation layer (that would have been slow/slower) to allow legacy hardware to be used with vista Much upgrade has very little of usefulness to some people, but still has a steep learning curve. I want to struggle with an upgrade only when it has a specific feature I really need, only when I really need it. Fred Holmes Luddite and proud of it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
How many horses is enough for Vista to run well? Which version of Vista? At 12:21 PM 6/16/2008, Chris Dunford wrote: No reason at all. As long as you have enough horses in the box, Vista is far superior to XP. I have to use both (for professional reasons) and I hate using the XP box now. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 03:38 PM 6/16/2008, Chris Dunford wrote: And it's certainly more secure. Chris How do you know for sure? My impression of improved security is tighter digital rights management and IT's tighter control over what the user can do (in a corporate environment). I've never had an infection and my Windows 2000 is still running fine. On a new, fast machine with SATA drives. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Definately don't go by Vista's support page. Vista ran fine on my amd 4200 with 2 gigs of ram and a 7950 gt...right now i'm on a amd 4800 with 4 gigs of ram and ultimate...don't have any issues except for the driver for my msi tv card. This was the only card I could find in my price range (read cheap) that ran under 64bit vista. Mike On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Fred Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How many horses is enough for Vista to run well? Which version of Vista? At 12:21 PM 6/16/2008, Chris Dunford wrote: No reason at all. As long as you have enough horses in the box, Vista is far superior to XP. I have to use both (for professional reasons) and I hate using the XP box now. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 09:00 PM 6/16/2008, Tom Piwowar wrote: Giving me the MS party line is even less useful than saying get a Mac. The software the client wants to keep using has not had any updates in years. So my job is to get up-to-date hardware configured to run old software. I have Win 2000 running on a new Dell (last October) that uses SATA drives. A bit tricky getting the stuff to get Win2k to install, but when I finally found the secret, it worked. Dell dimension 9200, Some sort of Intel duo-core processor, that I don't remember the specifics of. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Mac users seem measure threats by actual incursions into their OS by malware/viruses. Windows and mac users seem to measure security for windows by reported threats that may or may not appear. Statistically vista has had many fewer problems then any other iteration of windows, but if you are measuring security by sheer number of reported critical updates, vista was more secure then mac os x. Real out in the world practice of course dictates mac os is more secure, then Vista if we are just comparing the two. Mike On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Fred Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 03:38 PM 6/16/2008, Chris Dunford wrote: And it's certainly more secure. Chris How do you know for sure? My impression of improved security is tighter digital rights management and IT's tighter control over what the user can do (in a corporate environment). I've never had an infection and my Windows 2000 is still running fine. On a new, fast machine with SATA drives. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista? speaking of eudora..
Yes I have seen their newer stuff. If you like the old Eudora, I have a few words of advice. DO NOT CHANGE! They took away some of the nicer aspects of Eudora in my opinion. (The ability to specify where you put attachmetns and stuff.) It is turning into a form of Thunderbird. Too much like Outlook. Stewart At 05:02 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: Eudora was taken over by the folks at thunderbird, has anyone tried out the beta? I see no plain dates on the site, so I'm not sure if they are actively working on it still. Mike Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 01:49 PM 6/16/2008, Rich Schinnell wrote: I have a dos 6.22 and windows 3.11 for workgroups that your welcome to. Dos rules and works great, I even have word perfect for dos that your welcome to. My old 386 runs great with this config and you can do whatever you want in DOS. You can use the gwbasic intrepeter for writing programs. I have that. Up and running. Works better than the newer stuff for the things that it can do. I use it regularly, not for Internet access, but for making documents that I print on paper and for doing bookkeeping on a spreadsheet (Multiplan). So much better than Excel, except for gui print page formatting which isn't important. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 09:54 PM 6/16/2008, Tony B wrote: I'd like to know what software it is. But I should probably know better than to ask, because often the answer is some antique POS you couldn't _give_ away today, but the clients are real luddites. No, I'll bet the client doesn't want to spend a lot of time/money on training for a new system whose new features may not be useful in his circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I ran the upgrade adviser and it shows only 15 of my applications won't work with Vista -- better than I had expected. There were no device problems except for Bluetooth which won't work with Vista. Chris Dunford wrote: I haven't tried Vista yet, but I think one problem might be that some software doesn't work for Vista as it does for XP I use a LOT of software and have had almost no trouble. A couple of things had to run in XP compatibility mode and a couple more needed updates (which were free in the specific cases I ran into). I had only one app that wouldn't work at all and was not going to be updated (a system registry monitor--geeky stuff) but it was easily replaced by another free program. I'd like to see a list of software that doesn't work with Vista. MS has a free Upgrade Advisor that will identify problem software on your system: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/upgradea dvisor.mspx * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista? speaking of eudora..
Sorry...*where* you put attachments? In the email? Mike On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes I have seen their newer stuff. If you like the old Eudora, I have a few words of advice. DO NOT CHANGE! They took away some of the nicer aspects of Eudora in my opinion. (The ability to specify where you put attachmetns and stuff.) It is turning into a form of Thunderbird. Too much like Outlook. Stewart At 05:02 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: Eudora was taken over by the folks at thunderbird, has anyone tried out the beta? I see no plain dates on the site, so I'm not sure if they are actively working on it still. Mike Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I have a Dell Notebook running Vista Home Premium with a Bluetooth mouse. What are you using for a bluetooth device? Robert wrote: I ran the upgrade adviser and it shows only 15 of my applications won't work with Vista -- better than I had expected. There were no device problems except for Bluetooth which won't work with Vista. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Fred I have Basic with 2 gig. I don't have any extra programs on here but cleaning tools-ccleaner, the free wise disk cleaner and wise reg cleaner and mz vista force. I also have pokerstars and a few meg of audios Terry Kilburg - Independent Reliv International Distributor! 563-872-3788 [EMAIL PROTECTED] * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 02:30 AM 6/17/2008, mike wrote: I've seen people hang on to the strangest software...just out of fear of change. Mike Often a well-deserved fear of change. New software is often inadequately tested. Why trade the devil you know for the devil you don't know, unless you really know of some must-have feature in the new that will really affect the bottom line? I'm concerned about my bottom line, not about Bill Gates's. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Indeed, there are many who are justified. Your company gets screwed over once by your accounting software and you get REAL nervous about touching that again. I still miss ircle from my mac days, there just isn't anything like it on windows. Mike On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Fred Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 02:30 AM 6/17/2008, mike wrote: I've seen people hang on to the strangest software...just out of fear of change. Mike Often a well-deserved fear of change. New software is often inadequately tested. Why trade the devil you know for the devil you don't know, unless you really know of some must-have feature in the new that will really affect the bottom line? I'm concerned about my bottom line, not about Bill Gates's. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista? speaking of eudora..
At 03:30 PM 06/17/2008 -0700, mike wrote Sorry...*where* you put attachments? In the email? Eudora has always separated attachments from the email and stored them in a separate file. Those of us who are used to that prefer it and don't want our attachments stored with the emails. I think T-bird/new Eudora does not store the attachments separately. Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista? speaking of eudora..
At 03:02 PM 06/17/2008 -0700, mike wrote Eudora was taken over by the folks at thunderbird, has anyone tried out the beta? I see no plain dates on the site, so I'm not sure if they are actively working on it still. The WinEudora list is not recommending it. They recommend sticking with Eudora 7.1, which is free now. There are many features missing from the T-bird version that some Eudora users really want. They're describing it as Thunderbird with a skin to resemble Eudora. Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista? speaking of eudora..
When you receive email, Eudora normally strips attachments out of the email and puts a copy of them in the specified folder (Unlike Outlook and T'bird). So if I get an email with 20 pictures attached I have access to those pictures at any time. If I specify that I want all attachments left in d:\attachment folder that is where they will go. Otherwise the outlook method is to stick them deep in your c:\documents and settings folder about 5 layers down. Very difficult to get to. I get a lot of work stuff via attachments, documents, pdf's occasionally jpg's. Eudora has always been a joy to work with when I get these. If I loose the attachment I know where I can find it. And I don't have to open the program. Stewart At 05:30 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: Sorry...*where* you put attachments? In the email? Mike On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes I have seen their newer stuff. If you like the old Eudora, I have a few words of advice. DO NOT CHANGE! They took away some of the nicer aspects of Eudora in my opinion. (The ability to specify where you put attachmetns and stuff.) It is turning into a form of Thunderbird. Too much like Outlook. Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
No, I'll bet the client doesn't want to spend a lot of time/money on training for a new system whose new features may not be useful in his circumstances. Precisely correct. The reason I am working to keep this client on XP is exactly the same reason I often suggest people get a Mac: it will make their work go better. In this case the computer is being used exclusively for accounting work so the right answer is whatever keeps the existing system running and the current users productive. Why is that so tough for some of us to comprehend? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista? speaking of eudora..
No it does not. That is why I could never recommend the newer Eudora and still prefer the old. Stewart At 07:18 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: At 03:30 PM 06/17/2008 -0700, mike wrote Sorry...*where* you put attachments? In the email? Eudora has always separated attachments from the email and stored them in a separate file. Those of us who are used to that prefer it and don't want our attachments stored with the emails. I think T-bird/new Eudora does not store the attachments separately. Sue Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
To me, it looks like the game is played: Buy MS OS--whatever the latest version. Use all MS products on it (browsers, email programs, Office). Repeat about every 3 years. My son is pushing me to buy a Mac. Is the situation the same with them? I see no reason to switch to a more expensive system if I have to keep replacing them too. The old Apple was very long-term stable and I often supported clients that were running a range of Mac OSs that spanned 10 or more years. Old software ran fine on new machines and new OSs. Recently that has not been the case. Apple's transition to OS X forced changes at a much faster pace than Mac users were used to. Over about 6 years the old systems became hard to integrate with newer systems. Before we could catch a breath Apple changed processors. Now we have a situation where the old software won't even run on the new hardware. Apple is pushing us through this transition at an even faster pace than the OS X transition. Will things slow down now? Or will Apple decide that this rapid pace is better for them? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Tom I comprehend you perfectly. Stick with what works and quit going for the glitz. I knew a guy who had to have the latest hardware. He spent way more than I ever did. You know what I did, he always wanted a trade if of his old equipment. So I upped his price took the old equipment in as trade and used it for a few more years. Always knew I would get great stuff. Just last years model instead of this years. Stewart At 07:26 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: Precisely correct. The reason I am working to keep this client on XP is exactly the same reason I often suggest people get a Mac: it will make their work go better. In this case the computer is being used exclusively for accounting work so the right answer is whatever keeps the existing system running and the current users productive. Why is that so tough for some of us to comprehend? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Perhaps a reason that the Get a Mac joke is no longer funny is due to the fact that after over a million such suggestions, no one has ever countered with Get Windows. On the contrary, they have gone out an gotten Macs. Apple's market share has doubled. This is no joke for the Windows fan bois. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
If you stop being an ass. You started this thread and the only reason you've given for not liking this OS that came out a year ago is that it won't run old software. You consistently fail to read carefully. The reason I don't like the OS is because it won't meet the clients needs. That should not be hard to understand. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
The driver layers have to be rewritten because in my business the application software is ALL proprietary. It all has to talk to server, mainframe, and other device layers that affect literally millions, actually hundreds of millions, of people. It's not worth the risk when you have that many people and that much money riding on the outcome. With such requirements I wonder why you are not running Linux. That would put you in control of your destiny instead of getting run around by greedy MS. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I cannot remember the exact name of the program but it was like great Lakes or something accounting software that was in use 15 years ago when we were assembling DOS/Novell/Lantastic/Xenix units and it ran on Xenix and Dos. Great Plains. So sad they met such a terrible fate. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
The following is how you began this thread. No where within is there anything about your specific problem with vista being that some software your clients need not being able to be run on vista. XP is still available, MS will let you downgrade if you desire, you already know that. Your question about how to avoid vista is a false premise for you to take more shots at it for absolutely no reason. This thread was started as yet another simple slam on vista for the sake of mac boi chest thumping. I read carefully, your pointless rants aren't complicated. Mike I see that Dell will stop taking orders for XP equipped PCs on the 18th (this Wed). I also read that some Dell PCs can no longer be downgraded to XP because there are no XP drivers for some components (sound cards, NICs, etc). So after failing to take over Yahoo are we going to be the next recipients of MS tenderness? Are we experiencing a hostile takeover this week? Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You consistently fail to read carefully. The reason I don't like the OS is because it won't meet the clients needs. That should not be hard to understand. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I agree but MS is no different than Intuit (Parsons Tax Edge) and Adobe (Aldus Pagemaker) Stewart At 07:48 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: Great Plains. So sad they met such a terrible fate. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
With such requirements I wonder why you are not running Linux. That would put you in control of your destiny instead of getting run around by greedy MS. I don't make those decisions. Many moons ago I remember that our typical office ran on SPARCstations and SPARCservers, and before that on these really grim little terminals that you had to power by throwing a supply of hamsters into a wheel mounted on the side, one at a time. I've repressed the name of those. It started with a T but I don't think it was Telex. Might have been. You had to time each hamster, because if an individual one exerted himself too much and died on the job it came out of your paycheck at the end of the week. It wasn't until 1996 that I actually was transferred to a unit that had color monitors. WFWGs was the OS, and even at the time it was dated, but the color monitors were nice. You could run mainframe apps in four glorious colors. We did still have onsite tech support then, though. And you didn't have to clean the hamster poop out of your desk drawer at the end of each week. :-) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 08:35 PM 06/17/2008 -0400, Tom Piwowar wrote Will things slow down now? Or will Apple decide that this rapid pace is better for them? Thanks for that info, Tom. It sounds like Apple has decided to play the game too. Can you imagine a market share if someone ever decided to build a good machine and support it for more than a few years? Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
By the way, no drivers for XP for certain hardware isn't MS's fault...the companies who create the software decided to not write drivers. Mike On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see that Dell will stop taking orders for XP equipped PCs on the 18th (this Wed). I also read that some Dell PCs can no longer be downgraded to XP because there are no XP drivers for some components (sound cards, NICs, etc). So after failing to take over Yahoo are we going to be the next recipients of MS tenderness? Are we experiencing a hostile takeover this week? Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Odd you should mention this, as I will be getting a new motherboard this month and I've (almost) decided to go with Vista instead of XP. I've had a dual boot XP/Vista install for a while, but little (third party) problems kept me from defaulting to Vista. Well, now that Nvidia has gotten their act together, that solves 90% of the Vista problems, and as I discovered over the weekend, other authors have fixed their stuff too (I still have a bit of testing to do). To reiterate: The much ballyhooed problems with Vista were never actually problems with the OS, but rather, problems with support from the myriad of manufacturers that [are supposed to] support the OS. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
On Jun 16, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? Macintosh OS. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I've run vista on a dozen machines, never had anything similiar. What did you buy that it ran like that? And can you be more specific? Mike On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the phrase runs like ME mean anything to you? Stewart At 10:47 AM 6/16/2008, you wrote: Does anyone know why anyone wants to avoid vista on new machines? What is the problem? Mike On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see that Dell will stop taking orders for XP equipped PCs on the 18th (this Wed). I also read that some Dell PCs can no longer be downgraded to XP because there are no XP drivers for some components (sound cards, NICs, etc). So after failing to take over Yahoo are we going to be the next recipients of MS tenderness? Are we experiencing a hostile takeover this week? Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
What's wrong with Vista? Having to struggle to access many things that should be transparently available and having it decide other things for me incorrectly is a big reason for me. I want to do my work on a computer not have the computer be the work. Same things goes for Office 2007. Essentially steps backwards in essential ways. I predict MS inferior IT and bullying, creepy politics isn't going to work for them anymore in keeping them on top of their market. Too many options are now available. Linux, Google, Mac. The bully is going to reap its just rewards me thinks. XP and Office 2003 are the end of the line for me. db mike wrote: Another thing to keep in mind, the only thing that has changed is that xp is no longer available in stores. Mike On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Tony B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Odd you should mention this, as I will be getting a new motherboard this month and I've (almost) decided to go with Vista instead of XP. I've had a dual boot XP/Vista install for a while, but little (third party) problems kept me from defaulting to Vista. Well, now that Nvidia has gotten their act together, that solves 90% of the Vista problems, and as I discovered over the weekend, other authors have fixed their stuff too (I still have a bit of testing to do). To reiterate: The much ballyhooed problems with Vista were never actually problems with the OS, but rather, problems with support from the myriad of manufacturers that [are supposed to] support the OS. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? Yeah. Get a Mac. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
On Jun 16, 2008, at 2:10 PM, Reid Katan wrote: On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? Yeah. Get a Mac. I suggested getting the Mac OS and was criticized for doing so. Actually, I should have merely suggested any other OS, not just one made by Apple. I realize that many folks think they are forever bound to a MS operating system of one flavor or another. Such a burden. I have been through three operating systems, and the Mac OS is the one I have settled on in the final analysis. I wonder how many different operating systems most Windows users have worked extensively with? I do not personally know anybody who is wedded to the Windows system who has ever worked at length with any other OS. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
what were your reasons for going with xp instead of vista? On 6/16/08, Ellen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm ordering three new machines from Dell today with XP on them. They should hold us until whatever follows Vista is available. Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see that Dell will stop taking orders for XP equipped PCs on the 18th (this Wed). I also read that some Dell PCs can no longer be downgraded to XP because there are no XP drivers for some components (sound cards, NICs, etc). So after failing to take over Yahoo are we going to be the next recipients of MS tenderness? Are we experiencing a hostile takeover this week? Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Can you list your reasons for why your XP box isn't as good as Vista? It's sort of hard to put a finger on. Mostly it just feels better. But I have found it to be more robust (XP was pretty good, but I did get the occasional bluescreen or hangup--I've never had either with Vista). And it's certainly more secure. Chris * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Tom is a fan BOI, not boy. Glitterati are bois, not boys. I stand corrected. It also explains why PC users are mostly busboys and not busbois. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 12:38 PM 6/16/2008, you wrote: ate:Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:38:01 -0700 From:db [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Forced to Vista? What's wrong with Vista? Having to struggle to access many things that should be transparently available and having it decide other things for me incorrectly is a big reason for me. I want to do my work on a computer not have the computer be the work. Same things goes for Office 2007. Essentially steps backwards in essential ways. I predict MS inferior IT and bullying, creepy politics isn't going to work for them anymore in keeping them on top of their market. Too many options are now available. Linux, Google, Mac. The bully is going to reap its just rewards me thinks. XP and Office 2003 are the end of the line for me. db I have a suggestion for those who might want to get back to the real basics. I have a dos 6.22 and windows 3.11 for workgroups that your welcome to. Dos rules and works great, I even have word perfect for dos that your welcome to. My old 386 runs great with this config and you can do whatever you want in DOS. You can use the gwbasic intrepeter for writing programs. Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play? I run Vista ultimate on a power toshiba laptop and everything works great. Also on a Pentium Dual with 2gigs of ram and power video. I don't seem to have the problems some are having but then I use the machine for my work and some playing. Re the response to get a Mac. I don't think that getting in a peeing contest with TP is worth any agrivation at this stage of the game as it would be like peeing to windward.. YMMV Rich * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
and proud of it. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Chris Dunford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom is a fan BOI, not boy. Glitterati are bois, not boys. I stand corrected. It also explains why PC users are mostly busboys and not busbois. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
mike wrote: Does anyone know why anyone wants to avoid vista on new machines? What is the problem? Mike I haven't tried Vista yet, but I think one problem might be that some software doesn't work for Vista as it does for XP. I'd like to see a list of software that doesn't work with Vista. I'm not talking about upgrading to the latest version of software to solve this problem. If one has only a few applications such as commonly found at a worksite, upgrading is not such a problem especially if the work provides the upgrades. But if one has hundreds of applications at home, some of them costing $500 -- $1000 apiece, getting the latest version just to be able to run them on a new OS is a definite problem. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see that Dell will stop taking orders for XP equipped PCs on the 18th (this Wed). I also read that some Dell PCs can no longer be downgraded to XP because there are no XP drivers for some components (sound cards, NICs, etc). So after failing to take over Yahoo are we going to be the next recipients of MS tenderness? Are we experiencing a hostile takeover this week? Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I haven't tried Vista yet, but I think one problem might be that some software doesn't work for Vista as it does for XP I use a LOT of software and have had almost no trouble. A couple of things had to run in XP compatibility mode and a couple more needed updates (which were free in the specific cases I ran into). I had only one app that wouldn't work at all and was not going to be updated (a system registry monitor--geeky stuff) but it was easily replaced by another free program. I'd like to see a list of software that doesn't work with Vista. MS has a free Upgrade Advisor that will identify problem software on your system: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/upgradea dvisor.mspx * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
what were your reasons for going with xp instead of vista? Need to run old software. MS bought the software company a few years ago and discontinued their products. My client does not want to switch despite aggressive MS sales tactics. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
And suggesting it to Tom Piwowar, Mac guy and king of the Apple fan-boys (if I may use his phrase), is surely carrying coals to Newcastle... I am not an Apple fan. I merely despise junk and adore quality. It is not my fault that MS makes junk and sells it by using strong-arm tactics. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I use a LOT of software and have had almost no trouble. A couple of things had to run in XP compatibility mode and a couple more needed updates (which were free in the specific cases I ran into). I had only one app that wouldn't work at all Giving me the MS party line is even less useful than saying get a Mac. The software the client wants to keep using has not had any updates in years. So my job is to get up-to-date hardware configured to run old software. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
No reason at all. As long as you have enough horses in the box, Vista is far superior to XP. I have to use both (for professional reasons) and I hate using the XP box now. If the client's primary application won't run there is no way that they are going to love Vista. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
I'd like to know what software it is. But I should probably know better than to ask, because often the answer is some antique POS you couldn't _give_ away today, but the clients are real luddites. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:28 PM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you don't like Vista because it won't run software that came out years ago? This happens on every platform, even *gasp* a mac. You mac fan bois know that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
It might not be. MS bought some very strong lines of professional business software years ago, one of them a AR ledger program that a lot of businesses used. Stewart At 08:54 PM 6/16/2008, you wrote: I'd like to know what software it is. But I should probably know better than to ask, because often the answer is some antique POS you couldn't _give_ away today, but the clients are real luddites. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
So you don't like Vista because it won't run software that came out years ago? Don't be a jerk Mike. Lots of folks run old software for good reasons. I have Mac clients using software that was discontinued 15 years ago. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
At 10:22 PM 06/16/2008 -0400, Tom Piwowar wrote Don't be a jerk Mike. Lots of folks run old software for good reasons. I have Mac clients using software that was discontinued 15 years ago. There are those who can afford to replace software every time a new version comes out. There are young gamers who will not mind doing this. There are folks who need the latest for business reasons. Then there are the rest of us, who are just home users and happy with the word processors, spreadsheets, email programs, graphic programs, AV programs and browsers that run well on the machines we have. We get no kick out of learning a brand new OS whenever something comes out. However, many times we are forced to upgrade hardware to keep up with the changes in browsers or AV programs because they are such 'hogs'. It would make me very happy to be able to continue using what I already have...at least until the hardware breaks down! Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
The software the client wants to keep using has not had any updates in years. So my job is to get up-to-date hardware configured to run old software. We're still running mission critical apps on, in most individual cases, P4 platforms. XP Pro is the OS of choice. Why would we do this? Well, because it works and the hardware is not fully depreciated. That's what you get in a REALLY large scale computing environment. I'm talking a global WAN. We do have an increasing failure rate of individual workstations, but it's sustainable. As the individual components fail they are replaced by cannibalized parts or gradually by new units. Usually from the lowest bidder that has proven reliability. I'm speaking of long upgrade cycles here. Business is economic war and the bottom line is How much does it cost and what will it buy me in terms of productivity and reliability. You do not make a decision to do a potentially super expensive platform change to an unproven OS requiring application rewrites and over a million physical hardware upgrades lightly. At least not when if the network stops functioning for any reason you are dead in the water. Not for no proven benefit and when you have all ready committed to a huge capital investment in network restructuring. So no Vista here, except I suspect for limited testing. I speak theoretically and only for myself, and entertainment purposes, as usual :-). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Sure. Buy Dells with a Vista license and Ghost them with XP installs. You need to have a volume XP product key to do this. Why? Because Vista doesn't have significant enough business value for me to go through the hassle of upgrading all the desktops to Vista. XP works just fine for us. I'm waiting for Windows 7, whatever that turns out to be, which is looking like Vista 2nd Edition at this point. -Original Message- I see that Dell will stop taking orders for XP equipped PCs on the 18th (this Wed). I also read that some Dell PCs can no longer be downgraded to XP because there are no XP drivers for some components (sound cards, NICs, etc). So after failing to take over Yahoo are we going to be the next recipients of MS tenderness? Are we experiencing a hostile takeover this week? Does anyone have a strategy for avoiding Vista? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Not just businesses. Schools also labor under some of the same constraints. Our local school system still has machines that run 95. Many of them are running 98. As they upgrade they go with the latest OS, but they cannot afford to just upgrade machines at will. Schools down here operate on very slim budgets. (Thank God for Mississippi there is at least one lower than we are) They buy equipment as needed and as grant money allows it. Stewart At 09:54 PM 6/16/2008, you wrote: We're still running mission critical apps on, in most individual cases, P4 platforms. XP Pro is the OS of choice. Why would we do this? Well, because it works and the hardware is not fully depreciated. That's what you get in a REALLY large scale computing environment. I'm talking a global WAN. We do have an increasing failure rate of individual workstations, but it's sustainable. As the individual components fail they are replaced by cannibalized parts or gradually by new units. Usually from the lowest bidder that has proven reliability. I'm speaking of long upgrade cycles here. Business is economic war and the bottom line is How much does it cost and what will it buy me in terms of productivity and reliability. You do not make a decision to do a potentially super expensive platform change to an unproven OS requiring application rewrites and over a million physical hardware upgrades lightly. At least not when if the network stops functioning for any reason you are dead in the water. Not for no proven benefit and when you have all ready committed to a huge capital investment in network restructuring. So no Vista here, except I suspect for limited testing. I speak theoretically and only for myself, and entertainment purposes, as usual :-). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Don't be a jerk Mike. Lots of folks run old software for good reasons. I have Mac clients using software that was discontinued 15 years ago. And I use, every day, a program that I wrote twenty-five years ago for DOS 2.0. The fact that your clients can still use this software doesn't prove anything. The question is, can they run EVERY piece of old software? Because that is basically what's being given as the reason not to use Vista. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Vista doesn't have significant enough business value for me to go through the hassle of upgrading all the desktops to Vista. Here's something I don't understand, Jeff. Why is there a need for upgrading all the desktops to Vista? This is basically the same argument that Eric makes in another message when he mentions a potentially super expensive platform change. Why upgrade everything at once? Why not just replace XP machines with Vista machines on their regular replacement cycle? I've heard some comments about IT issues with maintaining two OSs, but I don't really see it. It's just doesn't seem that hard. They aren't THAT different. Stewart's later message says: As [schools] upgrade they go with the latest OS, but they cannot afford to just upgrade machines at will. That strikes me as the sensible way, if not the only way, to go. How many organizations of ANY kind can afford to upgrade everything at once? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Forced to Vista?
Why upgrade everything at once? Why not just replace XP machines with Vista machines on their regular replacement cycle? I've heard some comments about IT issues with maintaining two OSs, but I don't really see it. It's just doesn't seem that hard. They aren't THAT different. The driver layers have to be rewritten because in my business the application software is ALL proprietary. It all has to talk to server, mainframe, and other device layers that affect literally millions, actually hundreds of millions, of people. It's not worth the risk when you have that many people and that much money riding on the outcome. I'm not willing to even spend the money to buy enough hardware to push what I consider all ready bloated code. It hasn't been proven to be reliable on that scale and it probably never will be. It is not mission ready for my applications and that is why I will not throw money at it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
