[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I mean, people DIED in that screenplay, man. And we don't need any gangfights. :p Karl Daniel Kappus, Jr. https://www.illimitable.us 415.446.8419 On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 10:17 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > jets/rubies might be the

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

lists.sharedweight.net> > *Sent:* Thursday, February 9, 2023 5:57 AM > *To:* Jim Thaxter > *Cc:* Peghesley ; Shared Weight Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > *Subject:* [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') > > > > > >

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 5:57 AM To: Jim Thaxter Cc: Peghesley ; Shared Weight Contra Callers Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') As a member of the LGBT community, my view (personal, from talking to others, and from votes in local contra dances in Wes

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Hi Jon, I really appreciate you clarifying your email's intent and which parts were facetious and which weren't! Best, Julian On Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 10:32 AM Jon Greene via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Hi Maia, > > The part of my post referencing role names

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Hi Maia, The part of my post referencing role names was meant to be ironic ("when men were men ...") and was triggered by Robert's post about some future nostalgia. I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else. I have no problem with any of the gender free names. Nor do I have a problem with "right

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Thanks for this Maia; you said it better than I can. And as I’ve said elsewhere, learning to teach/call positionally and adapting to dancing to Larks/Ravens has, for me, the bonus of creating new brain cells and possibly delaying cognitive decline. On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 9:47 PM Maia McCormick

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

2 items. 1. Jets/Rubies A story I'm unsure how many have heard: Ultimately, what sunk "jets/rubies" wasn't so much "airplane" or "black/red" (ships and planes are traditionally named after women, so, I never got the whole "a jet is masculine" thing, but, I digress). A dance I called in Brooklyn

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Alan J. Rosenthal suggested: "In my opinion it's important that the replacement terms don't resemble any gendered words" I disagree. The purpose of the replacement words is, in the long run, to leave as few persons as possible (hopefully no one) uncomfortable. Whether they sound like other

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Unfortunately Jets/Rubies sounds gendered to a lot of people: while "Jet" is a jemstone, it's also an engine, a plane, sports team, and a fictional gang, all more male-ish than female-ish. And "Ruby" is a commonish female name and gemstones are more associated with women than men. There's also a

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I LIKE THIS! I hereby nominate "jets and rubies" as the likeliest contender, far outshining my own personal fallback, suns-and-moons. And btw, I'm absolutely seeing "jets" in my mind as black shiny beads, not flying machines. On 2/13/23, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote: > jets/rubies

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

jets/rubies might be the best solution several reasons: (1) no relation to gender roles, (2) sound like gents and ladies, satisfying those who cognitively have difficulty associating larks and robins with the corresponding roles. (3) easier and faster to say. Jets, unlike larks, has no hard

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Happier days for some, but a lot of us, those "haylcon days" were really not all that. Transgender people and gays and lesbians having to hide who they were, or not able to dance with (let alone marry) their partners for fear of retaliation, or having to go to their own separate dances to feel

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

ght Contra Callers; Jill Allen Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') Oh those halcyon days when gents were men, ladies were women, birds were birds, gypsies melted down, nobody cared how many jabs you had and you never had to guess whether someone was smiling or frown

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Oh those halcyon days when gents were men, ladies were women, birds were birds, gypsies melted down, nobody cared how many jabs you had and you never had to guess whether someone was smiling or frowning at you.Sent from my iPhoneOn Feb 10, 2023, at 9:23 PM, ROBERT FABINSKI via Contra Callers

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Bob, I have some ideas about what the world would look like to be at that point. What do you think that society would look like? How would we get there? In dance, Julian On Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 9:23 PM ROBERT FABINSKI via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I look

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

It's delightful to see so many people reporting on their personal experiences on this thread. So much ingenuity applied to adapting beloved material to changing contexts -- what a wide and engaging range of questions, stories, and perspectives ! With four decades of dance experience,

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I look forward to a day in the future when the "quaintness" of the gendered terms will be used as a quirky theme for a dance evening, and people will think it's so old fashioned that no one will take offense; gendered terms will just be "the way it was a long time ago" and not the contentious

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Hi, John! I assume by "looking to the right when looking across the set" you mean "people who are looking to the right to look at their corner" rather than just "across". (I've found that things like "when you're facing your partner, if your right hand is closer to the person diagonally

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

> On Feb 10, 2023, at 1:51 PM, Winston, Alan P. > wrote: > > Jeff Spero wrote: > > -- > But… as dancing resumed, there seemed to be a shortage of callers here and I > ended up being asked to call the first dance since the beginning of the > pandemic. I was not thrilled about

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Hi all, Alan said, " Do you use first corners as quondam role names - that is, the people who started out on the first corners, wherever they are now - or instantaneously positional? What do you about Becket dances? (In duple minor improper first corners = robins; in Becket, same corners

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Jeff Spero wrote: -- But… as dancing resumed, there seemed to be a shortage of callers here and I ended up being asked to call the first dance since the beginning of the pandemic. I was not thrilled about calling ladies/gents, nor was I prepared to call larks/ravens. So I tackled

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

An Old Art for a New Century (available now) From: Rich Sbardella via Contra Callers Sent: Friday, February 10, 2023 3:03 PM To: Don Veino Cc: Jill Allen ; Shared Weight Contra Callers Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') In reference to Jill's question, what sh

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

In reference to Jill's question, what shall we do with squares like Push Pa, Shove Ma, I would continue to call them with slight variations. For example, I would say, Push old Pa, Push Old Ma, Swing the ONE from Arkansas. I would also explain that some of the language of traditional square is

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

(distribution trimmed back to those who voluntarily joined this conversation ) That's what I've done with the singing squares I've chosen to learn/program. In most cases it's trivial to make the change and fit the meter of the dance/tune, and the quality/helpfulness of the resultant calls

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

If you are looking for a challenge in bowdlerising old square dances, then have a look at “Ribaldry at Ozark Dances” in “Blow the Candle Out”. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S93LdPw2KP0C =PA757 Warning: Please do not follow this

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

It depends a lot on your local dance?. At ours I think a call that implied the gender of specific dancers ("Ladies star right, around the square ... It’s partner left, then leave him there ... And then you Swing with that corner guy") would need rephrasing, though that's often practical. Here's

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Great discussion! So, now what do we do with squares? One of my favorites, “Push pa, shove ma” (swing the girl from Arkansas) Darn… but I get it. Should we rewrite the singing squares that don’t comply? It might not be too difficult. I would just like to know what some of you have experienced

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I went looking for Myrtle Wilhite's "Lullaby of the swing: And other contra dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays" so I could read her "I am not a lady" essay, and found an archived Geocities page "last updated Mon Jul 14 1997 by William J.

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Kat, Nice observations. I'll note that your symmetrical version of California Twirl into "Tug and Turn" is almost exactly the definition of "Trade By" in club squares for dancers who are facing out of the set. (For dancers facing in, trade by is functionally the same as "pass through." I like

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Oh, and another thing, which I really should have said somewhere in that long screed. To me, part of the essence of country dancing, what makes it attractive to me, and why a community grows around it is that we all need each other to for this kind of dancing to work. I could have a

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Since it looks like we're sharing experiences, evolutions, and thoughts on calling terms, I'll throw in mine, and it's going to be all over the map. Let me stipulate that I'm a cis-het guy and my relationships since, oh, 1990 have been with women I've met at dances. My first country-dance

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

dancer learns > both roles and that the ability to swap roles during a number is “a > consummation devoutly to be wished.” I have no philosophical quarrel with > this, but it inevitably widens the gap between what a newbie knows / can do > and what one must know / be able to do to s

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

*From:* Ridge Kennedy via Contra Callers *Sent:* Thursday, February 9, 2023 9:52 AM *To:* Shared Weight Contra Callers *Subject:* [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') Dear All, I have thought a lot about the nomenclature issues. I too went from ladies to women and back t

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

>> > >> Bree Kalb > >> Carrboro, NC > >> > >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 8:18 PM Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Contra Callers > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> At the Ralph Page Legacy day last month, Chrissy Fowler did a session > in >

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

ers were making it explicitly clear that the terms >> >>> Gents and Ladies referred to roles, and anybody could dance either role. >> >>> >> >>> Jacob >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 2:29 PM Tony Parkes v

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

ce Calling: An Old Art for a New Century (available now)     From: Ridge Kennedy via Contra Callers Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 9:52 AM To: Shared Weight Contra Callers Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')   Dear All,   I have thought a

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

le Wilhite’s Lullaby of the Swing and other contra >>>> dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays (Madison, WI, 1993). I can’t lay my >>>> hand on my copy at the moment, but perhaps someone else has one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tony Parkes >>>>

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

. www.hands4.com<http://www.hands4.com/> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century (available now) From: John Sweeney via Contra Callers Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 10:43 AM To: 'Shared Weight Contra Callers' Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompi

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

k! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century > > (available now) > > > > > > *From:* Ridge Kennedy via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > *Sent:* Thursday, February 9, 2023 9:52 AM > *To:* Shared Weight Contra Callers > *Subject:*

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I agree completely with Tony, except… I don’t think it is a good idea to use the terms “leader” and “follower”. The only leader in the room is the caller. For flashy moves either person can briefly lead another – e.g. twirling the end person as you go Down the Hall in Lines of Four.

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Contra Callers Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 10:33 AM To: 'Shared Weight Contra Callers' Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') I also have many male dancers who don’t want to do ballroom-hold swings with other men. I always recommend the Double Allemande Swing:

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I, too, have struggled with this issue, going from men/women terminology to gents/ladies while explaining that they are roles, not genders. I never took to larks/robins due to the aforementioned “I hear ‘lark’ and it triggers ‘lady’ in my mind.” And that still happens. Decades of dancing with

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

uary 9, 2023 9:52 AM To: Shared Weight Contra Callers Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') Dear All, I have thought a lot about the nomenclature issues. I too went from ladies to women and back to ladies, worked with armbands and bare arms, leaders and followers,

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I also have many male dancers who don’t want to do ballroom-hold swings with other men. I always recommend the Double Allemande Swing: https://youtu.be/Ue0yCtjjbGs?t=107 I have offered this hold to countless men and ladies on both sides of the Atlantic and it always works easily and

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

entury (available now) From: Allison Jonjak via Contra Callers Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 9:48 AM To: Gabrielle Taylor Cc: Peghesley ; Shared Weight Contra Callers Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') I don't have a cultural stance against positional calling, bu

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

hen at least some callers were making it explicitly clear that the >> terms >> >>> Gents and Ladies referred to roles, and anybody could dance either >> role. >> >>> >> >>> Jacob >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> O

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

as understood to be the name of a role. >> >>> >> >>> I can't give a year when it happened, but I do believe I remember a >> time >> >>> when at least some callers were making it explicitly clear that the >> terms >> >>> Gents an

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

; > >>> Jacob > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 2:29 PM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I believe it’s in Myrtle Wilhite’s Lullaby of the Swing and other > contra > >&g

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

gt;>> dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays (Madison, WI, 1993). I can’t lay my >>>> hand on my copy at the moment, but perhaps someone else has one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tony Parkes >>>> >>>> Biller

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

t: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM To: Jeff Kaufman <j...@alum.swarthmore.edu> Cc: Tony Parkes <t...@hands4.com>; Joe Harrington <contradancer...@gmail.com>; contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')  

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

.hands4.com >> >> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century >> >> (available now) >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Mary Collins >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM >> *To:* Jeff Kaufman >> *Cc:* Tony Parke

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

t; Tony Parkes >> >> Billerica, Mass. >> >> www.hands4.com >> >> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century >> >> (available now) >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Mary Collins >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 8, 20

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

; > > > > *From:* Mary Collins > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM > *To:* Jeff Kaufman > *Cc:* Tony Parkes ; Joe Harrington < > contradancer...@gmail.com>; contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' St

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century (available now) From: Mary Collins Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM To: Jeff Kaufman Cc: Tony Parkes ; Joe Harrington ; contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') Jeff,

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Jeff, me too...if you find it, share please. mary "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:58

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

ld Art for a New Century (available now) From: Jerome Grisanti Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 12:20 PM To: Tony Parkes Cc: Joe Harrington ; contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') Tony, On a side note, do you happen to know how an

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Tony, On a side note, do you happen to know how and when modern western square dance callers adopted the "boys/girls" nomenclature that is now common? Did they ever use ladies/gents? — Jerome Grisanti On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 9:55 AM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers <

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Aside: does anyone have a copy of the "I am not a lady" essay? I'd be interested to read it. Jeff On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:54 AM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Joe Harrington wrote: > > > > *> *When I started dancing in the late 1980s… Callers

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Joe Harrington wrote: > When I started dancing in the late 1980s… Callers were taking the > revolutionary step of not calling "men" and "women" but rather using "ladies" > and "gents", to signal that switching roles was ok, since nobody referred to > themselves as a "lady" or a "gent" in

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

ContraDB defaults to this set of role terms. If you create a username, you can login and set your preference to whatever arbitrary thing you want. I would advise against using these terms. At first, they seemed like a playful way to poke fun at gendered assumptions in the language we use. A

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

n teaching chain or r thru should be a piece of >> cake. You can even turn this into a scatter mixer where you promenade >> around and find another couple, r t over and back, chain one way, keep >> the new partner and scatter around.) >> >> I hope this is helpful. I am just pulling

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

atter mixer where you promenade > around and find another couple, r t over and back, chain one way, keep > the new partner and scatter around.) > > I hope this is helpful. I am just pulling this out of nowhere right now > and haven’t tried it at all, but it seems like it might help in your &g

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

OK. Thanks for the comments, all, and the clarity on the origins of the contradb terminology. Ken ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Sweeney Cc: contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') On gentlespoons/ladles, that's the "default" nomenclature set up for contradb.com--EXPLICITLY BECAUSE it's so ridiculous that it "forces" a user to change their

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I find the words "men" and "women" very hard to hear or distinguish from many other words. There's no plosive sound in them, and they have soft vowels. The words doesn't stick out at all for me. I don't know how early on I gave up trying to get my spouse, who's also a caller, to use words other

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

On gentlespoons/ladles, that's the "default" nomenclature set up for contradb.com--EXPLICITLY BECAUSE it's so ridiculous that it "forces" a user to change their dialect to the terms being called at their dance series. (Larks/robins, ladies/gents, a couple other defaults I don't recall off the

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

I still have great trouble reading dances written with Larks/Ravens – for me the L means Ladies means the ones on the right. I have to think twice to understand the notation. When I am using gendered terms (which many of my groups/customers still prefer) I would rather use Men than Gents.

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

There's a strong demonstrable benefit, especially to beginners, for choosing terms starting with L for left and R for right, while still sticking to the one-syllable/two-syllable pattern for existing dancer's sake. (I figured you might be joking, but wanted to clarify for others at least) -

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

So you're NOT in favor of trying Oaks / Maples, then, right? :D -Julian On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 1:08 PM Becky Liddle via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Hi Ken, > The non-gendered dance groups have settled (after MUCH debate and deep > consideration) on larks and

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Agreed with everything Alan said, and also I want to point out that these are not Chris Page's terms - they are, as best I can tell, placeholder terms created by the "admonsterators" of ContraDB, designed to be so ridiculous that you have no choice but to use something else. (If you create a

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Hi Ken, The non-gendered dance groups have settled (after MUCH debate and deep consideration) on larks and robins. The gendered folks are attached to gents and ladies. If you’re going to learn something new, I’d highly recommend the “avian” labels since those are the settled non-gendered terms.

[Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')

Hi, In my opinion it's important that the replacement terms don't resemble any gendered words. The point of gender-neutral role terms is to break the association between a role name and a gender. (Personally, it also grates on me when standard terms contain a joke, as if we're supposed to be