Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-08-23 Thread Robert Brockway 

On Fri, 23 Jun 2017, Kevin Zheng wrote:


As much as possible I've been automating the world building.  I hope it
offers different game play to keep people interested.


I think this could offer something to players who want to try something
new. Is the new world compatible with the standard server and client?


Late response :)

Currently I land the players on the old maps and they pass through a 
portal to the new maps.  I want this to go away soon.



I remember some complaints from the Galactic Mileau folks that it was
hard to get recent versions of the client/server running a custom world.
Are there changes that would make this easier for you?


Absolutely.  The newer clients make assumptions about the locations of 
Scorn and Navar City.


The older approach of having the character move around in the Hall of 
Selection would have made it easier than the current approach of having 
the information closely integrated in to the client.


Perhaps the clients could get a start location list from the server, or we 
could return to using something like a Hall Of Selection.


Cheers,

Rob
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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-08-23 Thread Ruben Safir 
On 06/23/2017 07:56 PM, Rick Tanner wrote:
> On 6/23/17 10:02 AM, Matthew Giassa wrote:
>>
>> Also, has anyone tested how much bandwidth, disk space, etc; the latest
>> stable release uses under a test load (i.e. a few users/players)? 
> 
> Disk space needed for (trunk only) source content:
> 


where is everything that was in my guild ;)


> arch = 124M
> server = 39M
> maps = 549M
> 
> After compiling the server:
> 
> arch = 124M
> server = 163M
> maps = 549M
> 
> I have some stats in regards to server resources. This is with Ubuntu
> 16.04 with 6 players running around various maps.
> 
>>From my observations...
> 
> crossfire-server requires 30.0 MiB of RAM to run when idle according to
> the server host System Monitor.
> 
> Each player connected uses an additional ~3 MiB of RAM/ea just to move
> around and interact with the game world.
> 
> When a player with hundreds (or thousands) of items in their apartment,
> guild maps, et al. first enters such a map, RAM utilization jumps
> dramatically. At the moment, I don't have a way to quantify these numbers.
> 
> Each player requires/uses about 10 KiB/s of bandwidth. Some maps with
> lots of spell casting and monsters (i.e., Tower of Demonology, Hanuk)
> causes this to spike as high as 10MB/s or more while that map or spell
> effects are taking place. In a recent test session, I missed tracking
> total bandwidth sent and received.
> 
> Highest use of CPU appears to be calculating damage from spell effects
> (especially comet and meteor) and/or magical attacks (dragons and large
> lightning or large ice storm, etc.)
> 
> Disk space recommended for player files & unique map files, looking on
> Metalforge - there is currently 111M of active player content. There is
> 13 years of archived content that is a total of 651M (low 33M, high 123M).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-26 Thread Rick Tanner 
On 6/23/17 10:02 AM, Matthew Giassa wrote:
> 
> Finally, who maintains the package currently available via `apt` on
> Ubuntu/Debian systems? The Ubuntu page notes that it is Kari Pahula [1].
> Is this person a CF dev?

*IF* it is someone else, I am not aware of it.

To my knowledge Kari Pahula has only done packaging work on the client
and server content. They are not listed on the SourceForge project team.

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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-25 Thread Mark Wedel 

On 06/25/2017 08:18 AM, Matthew Giassa wrote:

My guess is with meteor, let's assume 10 projectiles in rapid
succession, each generating a 15 tile radius (approx) effect, that's
about 10 * 700 = 7000 objects. How does the bandwidth shoot up to
10MB/s though?  What is the minimal unit/"tick" of time the server uses?


120 ms is the tick time.

 However, spells (unfortunately), do not move that simply.  If one takes a cone 
(simpler) that is cast to the right, it becomes


 / (a)
-- (b)
 \ (c)

 So on the next tick, when a moves more, it adds an object in the same 
direction (upper right) as a, as well as an object directly right.  Object b 
creates 3 new objects (in directions/spaces a,b,c), and c creates another one in 
c direction as well as b.


 A nice side effect of this is that something in the middle of the cone takes 
more damage at the edges, becaus there are more damage causing objects in the 
middle.  But it means that for an even modest sized cone, it can be a lot of 
objects (there is some merging logic, but a lot of these can not be merged.


 A better approach, would be that when that cone is cast, an invisible object 
is put on the map at the origin point that records various import details 
(direction, how long, etc). Then, each ticket, it just extends the cone to the 
next space as needed, inserting only the objects as needed on those new spaces. 
Then, the number of objects used would match exactly the number of spaces the 
object is on.


 Merging may not be possible, because of different durations (the first fire 
effects would burn out before the second.  Though this could perhaps even be 
handled by recording that information in each effect, eg, a fire object may 
contain data saying it does 20 damage and burns out in 8 ticks, but within that, 
says 6 damage burns out in 5 ticks, so that for the last 3 ticks,the spell does 
14 instead of 20, etc.


 But none of that is a trivial change.

 I'm not quite sure why the bandwidth would go that high - the map information 
is tried to be done efficiently (only send changed data, and each map space 
isn't a huge number of bytes).  However, I suppose if the fireball is killing a 
bunch of creatures and burning up a bunch of objects, the map is actually 
changing considerably.




Finally, does the server employ any sort of compression when sending out
this data, or is that impractical in such a case?


 I think this was investigated, but never done.  One has to make sure that 
adding the compression does not add more latency, which may mean that there are 
many small chunks of data compressed.


 Note also that bandwidth used is going to be pretty directly related to the 
size of the map - a 25x25 is going to use up about 4x the bandwidth of a 13x13 
in highly dynamic content, simply because it has that many spaces.




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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-25 Thread Matthew Giassa 

My guess is with meteor, let's assume 10 projectiles in rapid
succession, each generating a 15 tile radius (approx) effect, that's
about 10 * 700 = 7000 objects. How does the bandwidth shoot up to
10MB/s though?  What is the minimal unit/"tick" of time the server uses?

Finally, does the server employ any sort of compression when sending out
this data, or is that impractical in such a case?

Cheers!

* Mark Wedel  [2017-06-24 13:06:36 -0700]:


On 06/23/2017 04:56 PM, Rick Tanner wrote:

On 6/23/17 10:02 AM, Matthew Giassa wrote:


Also, has anyone tested how much bandwidth, disk space, etc; the latest
stable release uses under a test load (i.e. a few users/players)?


Disk space needed for (trunk only) source content:

arch = 124M
server = 39M
maps = 549M

After compiling the server:

arch = 124M
server = 163M
maps = 549M

I have some stats in regards to server resources. This is with Ubuntu
16.04 with 6 players running around various maps.


Disk space (and memory use) is pretty minimal for modern systems - 
the game goes back 20+ years, and while it has grown, it hasn't grown 
as much computer resources has.




From my observations...

crossfire-server requires 30.0 MiB of RAM to run when idle according to
the server host System Monitor.

Each player connected uses an additional ~3 MiB of RAM/ea just to move
around and interact with the game world.

When a player with hundreds (or thousands) of items in their apartment,
guild maps, et al. first enters such a map, RAM utilization jumps
dramatically. At the moment, I don't have a way to quantify these numbers.


There is a sizeof command you can run, that dumps the sizes of various objects.

IIRC, each object was ~500 bytes (sizes can also vary based on 32 
bit/64 bit or other factors).  A world map (50x50) perhaps has 5000 
objects on it (2/space), but pretty easy for apartments or guild halls 
to easily exceed that.




Each player requires/uses about 10 KiB/s of bandwidth. Some maps with
lots of spell casting and monsters (i.e., Tower of Demonology, Hanuk)
causes this to spike as high as 10MB/s or more while that map or spell
effects are taking place. In a recent test session, I missed tracking
total bandwidth sent and received.

Highest use of CPU appears to be calculating damage from spell effects
(especially comet and meteor) and/or magical attacks (dragons and large
lightning or large ice storm, etc.)


Yes, this is a problem with how the spells propagate - one spell can 
easy make hundreds or perhaps thousands of objects.  That in itself 
may not be bad, but the insertion of each object and interactions with 
other objects chews up that cpu time.


The other issue is that the game is only single threaded, so a 
massive spell burst (or loading a big map) slows everything down.  20 
years ago, multi cpu (now core) systems were pretty rare, now they are 
commonplace.  However, making the server multithreaded isn't a simple 
change.


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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-24 Thread Mark Wedel 

On 06/23/2017 04:56 PM, Rick Tanner wrote:

On 6/23/17 10:02 AM, Matthew Giassa wrote:


Also, has anyone tested how much bandwidth, disk space, etc; the latest
stable release uses under a test load (i.e. a few users/players)?


Disk space needed for (trunk only) source content:

arch = 124M
server = 39M
maps = 549M

After compiling the server:

arch = 124M
server = 163M
maps = 549M

I have some stats in regards to server resources. This is with Ubuntu
16.04 with 6 players running around various maps.


 Disk space (and memory use) is pretty minimal for modern systems - the game 
goes back 20+ years, and while it has grown, it hasn't grown as much computer 
resources has.




From my observations...

crossfire-server requires 30.0 MiB of RAM to run when idle according to
the server host System Monitor.

Each player connected uses an additional ~3 MiB of RAM/ea just to move
around and interact with the game world.

When a player with hundreds (or thousands) of items in their apartment,
guild maps, et al. first enters such a map, RAM utilization jumps
dramatically. At the moment, I don't have a way to quantify these numbers.


 There is a sizeof command you can run, that dumps the sizes of various objects.

IIRC, each object was ~500 bytes (sizes can also vary based on 32 bit/64 bit or 
other factors).  A world map (50x50) perhaps has 5000 objects on it (2/space), 
but pretty easy for apartments or guild halls to easily exceed that.




Each player requires/uses about 10 KiB/s of bandwidth. Some maps with
lots of spell casting and monsters (i.e., Tower of Demonology, Hanuk)
causes this to spike as high as 10MB/s or more while that map or spell
effects are taking place. In a recent test session, I missed tracking
total bandwidth sent and received.

Highest use of CPU appears to be calculating damage from spell effects
(especially comet and meteor) and/or magical attacks (dragons and large
lightning or large ice storm, etc.)


 Yes, this is a problem with how the spells propagate - one spell can easy make 
hundreds or perhaps thousands of objects.  That in itself may not be bad, but 
the insertion of each object and interactions with other objects chews up that 
cpu time.


 The other issue is that the game is only single threaded, so a massive spell 
burst (or loading a big map) slows everything down.  20 years ago, multi cpu 
(now core) systems were pretty rare, now they are commonplace.  However, making 
the server multithreaded isn't a simple change.


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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-24 Thread Kevin Zheng 
On 06/23/2017 15:29, David Hurst wrote:
> Hi, I'm currently using a 1.71 build of the gtk client on Windows 10. It
> works well with only two issues. 
> 
> 1. The Meta server doesn't work

Because I didn't compile with Curl.

> 2. The default numpad key bindings don't work and have to be bound manually.

Not sure why this is happening; I might not be able to investigate that.

> I'm happy to help bug test a gtk client (and the Java client) for this
> release. Given that all of the current clients (1.60?) for Windows are
> broken, I think this would be a really important step.

Thanks for offering. I'll do my best to get a Windows build out.

-- 
Kevin Zheng
kevinz5...@gmail.com | kev...@berkeley.edu | PGP: 0xC22E1090
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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-23 Thread Ruben Safir 
everytime someone has done something like that, they have regretted it.

FWIW, our class was considering writing a nueral network for crossfire


On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:01:20PM -0700, Mark Wedel wrote:
> On 06/22/2017 09:06 PM, Kevin Zheng wrote:
> >Hi there,
> >
> >It has now been 3 years since the last release. Since then we've
> >accumulated a decent amount of fixes and improvements.
> >
> >To make it easier on packagers, and so that more people might benefit
> >from these changes, I propose getting the ball rolling on cutting a new
> >release.
> >
> >If there are no objections I'll get the ball rolling on this next week.
> 
>  No objections from me.  I have to admit that I've gotten
> sidetracked on other projects and really don't spend much time on
> crossfire anymore.  I should probably transfer the admin/ownership
> rights in sourceforge to you or someone else that is more active
> than I am.
> 
> 
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-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive 
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, 
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-23 Thread Rick Tanner 
On 6/23/17 10:02 AM, Matthew Giassa wrote:
> 
> Also, has anyone tested how much bandwidth, disk space, etc; the latest
> stable release uses under a test load (i.e. a few users/players)? 

Disk space needed for (trunk only) source content:

arch = 124M
server = 39M
maps = 549M

After compiling the server:

arch = 124M
server = 163M
maps = 549M

I have some stats in regards to server resources. This is with Ubuntu
16.04 with 6 players running around various maps.

>From my observations...

crossfire-server requires 30.0 MiB of RAM to run when idle according to
the server host System Monitor.

Each player connected uses an additional ~3 MiB of RAM/ea just to move
around and interact with the game world.

When a player with hundreds (or thousands) of items in their apartment,
guild maps, et al. first enters such a map, RAM utilization jumps
dramatically. At the moment, I don't have a way to quantify these numbers.

Each player requires/uses about 10 KiB/s of bandwidth. Some maps with
lots of spell casting and monsters (i.e., Tower of Demonology, Hanuk)
causes this to spike as high as 10MB/s or more while that map or spell
effects are taking place. In a recent test session, I missed tracking
total bandwidth sent and received.

Highest use of CPU appears to be calculating damage from spell effects
(especially comet and meteor) and/or magical attacks (dragons and large
lightning or large ice storm, etc.)

Disk space recommended for player files & unique map files, looking on
Metalforge - there is currently 111M of active player content. There is
13 years of archived content that is a total of 651M (low 33M, high 123M).






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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-23 Thread David Hurst 
Hi, I'm currently using a 1.71 build of the gtk client on Windows 10. It
works well with only two issues.

1. The Meta server doesn't work
2. The default numpad key bindings don't work and have to be bound manually.

I'm happy to help bug test a gtk client (and the Java client) for this
release. Given that all of the current clients (1.60?) for Windows are
broken, I think this would be a really important step.

Saru

On 23 Jun. 2017 11:46 pm, "Kevin Zheng"  wrote:

On 06/23/2017 05:37, Rick Tanner wrote:
> Would/could/will the planned release include an .exe version of the GTK
> client for Windows?

It's been a while since I've tried to build the GTK client on Windows,
but I'll remember to give it a shot.

--
Kevin Zheng
kevinz5...@gmail.com | kev...@berkeley.edu | PGP: 0xC22E1090
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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-23 Thread Matthew Giassa 

Would it be worth migrating the project to GitHub, along with a copy of
the HTML, assets, etc; for the real-time.com CF wiki? Issues wouldn't be
migrated, but a more modern VCS could be employed.

Also, has anyone tested how much bandwidth, disk space, etc; the latest
stable release uses under a test load (i.e. a few users/players)? I
don't mind chipping in for an AWS micro install as an alternative to
someone having to dedicate a spare PC or VM as an in-house server. The
biggest problem would likely be maps. Maybe we require users to download
them in advance via apt/yum/tarball?

Finally, who maintains the package currently available via `apt` on
Ubuntu/Debian systems? The Ubuntu page notes that it is Kari Pahula [1].
Is this person a CF dev?

-Matthew

1. "Package: crossfire-client (1.71.0-1.1) [universe]",
  

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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-23 Thread Kevin Zheng 
On 06/23/2017 05:37, Rick Tanner wrote:
> Would/could/will the planned release include an .exe version of the GTK
> client for Windows?

It's been a while since I've tried to build the GTK client on Windows,
but I'll remember to give it a shot.

-- 
Kevin Zheng
kevinz5...@gmail.com | kev...@berkeley.edu | PGP: 0xC22E1090
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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-23 Thread Kevin Zheng 
On 06/22/2017 22:30, Robert Brockway wrote:
> About 18 months ago I sparked a discussion about an expanded Crossfire
> world I was developing.  Well I went away and did that but wasn't
> willing to host it on a VPS (Linode, Digital Ocean) as the size of the
> world made this quite expensive.  So I decided to wait until until my
> home was connected to the Australian National Broadband Network (NBN). 
> Well that's happening on June 29.  So, sometime in the next few weeks
> I'll launch the expanded world running on my NBN link.  I'll update my
> expanded world with the new release before going live with it.
> 
> The expanded world is 1000x1000 maps with the 'old world' (original
> world maps) positioned dead centre at 485-514 on each axis.
> 
> As much as possible I've been automating the world building.  I hope it
> offers different game play to keep people interested.

I think this could offer something to players who want to try something
new. Is the new world compatible with the standard server and client?

I remember some complaints from the Galactic Mileau folks that it was
hard to get recent versions of the client/server running a custom world.
Are there changes that would make this easier for you?

-- 
Kevin Zheng
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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-23 Thread Rick Tanner 

Would/could/will the planned release include an .exe version of the GTK
client for Windows?




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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-22 Thread Robert Brockway 

Sounds exciting.

About 18 months ago I sparked a discussion about an expanded Crossfire 
world I was developing.  Well I went away and did that but wasn't willing 
to host it on a VPS (Linode, Digital Ocean) as the size of the world made 
this quite expensive.  So I decided to wait until until my home was 
connected to the Australian National Broadband Network (NBN).  Well that's 
happening on June 29.  So, sometime in the next few weeks I'll launch the 
expanded world running on my NBN link.  I'll update my expanded world with 
the new release before going live with it.


The expanded world is 1000x1000 maps with the 'old world' (original world 
maps) positioned dead centre at 485-514 on each axis.


As much as possible I've been automating the world building.  I hope it 
offers different game play to keep people interested.


Cheers,

Rob

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Kevin Zheng wrote:


Hi there,

It has now been 3 years since the last release. Since then we've
accumulated a decent amount of fixes and improvements.

To make it easier on packagers, and so that more people might benefit
from these changes, I propose getting the ball rolling on cutting a new
release.

If there are no objections I'll get the ball rolling on this next week.

Thanks,
Kevin



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Re: [crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-22 Thread Mark Wedel 

On 06/22/2017 09:06 PM, Kevin Zheng wrote:

Hi there,

It has now been 3 years since the last release. Since then we've
accumulated a decent amount of fixes and improvements.

To make it easier on packagers, and so that more people might benefit
from these changes, I propose getting the ball rolling on cutting a new
release.

If there are no objections I'll get the ball rolling on this next week.


 No objections from me.  I have to admit that I've gotten sidetracked on other 
projects and really don't spend much time on crossfire anymore.  I should 
probably transfer the admin/ownership rights in sourceforge to you or someone 
else that is more active than I am.



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[crossfire] Release proposal

2017-06-22 Thread Kevin Zheng 
Hi there,

It has now been 3 years since the last release. Since then we've
accumulated a decent amount of fixes and improvements.

To make it easier on packagers, and so that more people might benefit
from these changes, I propose getting the ball rolling on cutting a new
release.

If there are no objections I'll get the ball rolling on this next week.

Thanks,
Kevin

-- 
Kevin Zheng
kevinz5...@gmail.com | kev...@berkeley.edu | PGP: 0xC22E1090



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