Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 21:32, Charles Curley wrote:

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:43:43 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:


…but for Gene's systems I would recommend
traditional Debian ifupdown (/etc/network/interfaces).  It's by far
the simplest, and the most widely supported among the community, in
case he has questions.


It has the further advantage that Network Manager will not manage
interfaces described in /e/n/i, so Gene can leave NM alone.



I haven't had stellar luck with that in the past w/o nukeing NM.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Max Nikulin]

On 31/10/2023 01:43, Greg Wooledge wrote:
for Gene's systems I would recommend traditional Debian ifupdown 
(/etc/network/interfaces). It's by far the simplest, and the most widely 
supported among the community, in case he has questions.


Notice that in the default configuration NetworkManager refrains from 
controlling of interfaces added to /etc/network/interfaces. So it does 
not even necessary to remove packages.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Max Nikulin]

On 30/10/2023 23:09, gene heskett wrote:
Making resolv.conf immutable seems to be the way to permanently insulate 
me from NM's broken idea of whats right.


Gene, from what you have written in this thread I see nothing wrong in 
behavior of NetworkManager. Certainly it is easier to continue barking 
at NetworkManager instead of getting rid of gibberish you put into its 
config.


Reread this thread from its start. NetworkManager is flexible enough and 
recipes for tuning of DNS settings have been posted here.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:43:43 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> …but for Gene's systems I would recommend
> traditional Debian ifupdown (/etc/network/interfaces).  It's by far
> the simplest, and the most widely supported among the community, in
> case he has questions.

It has the further advantage that Network Manager will not manage
interfaces described in /e/n/i, so Gene can leave NM alone.


-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 14:44, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 06:37:48PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 02:29:37PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 13:40, John Hasler wrote:

I wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?


Gene writes:

Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away
from it.


Why won't "sudo apt remove --purge network-manager" work for you?

It did, but took the network down too after a reboot.  To make sure I do it
right, whats next?



systemd-networkd, maybe - see, for example, the Arch wiki at
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-networkd

Andy


That's not a wrong answer, but for Gene's systems I would recommend
traditional Debian ifupdown (/etc/network/interfaces).  It's by far the
simplest, and the most widely supported among the community, in case
he has questions.

I did that, worked a treat.  Didn't even have to fix one of my fat 
fingered typu's. ;o)>

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 14:43, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 06:37:48PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 02:29:37PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 13:40, John Hasler wrote:

I wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?

Gene writes:

Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away
from it.

Why won't "sudo apt remove --purge network-manager" work for you?

It did, but took the network down too after a reboot.  To make sure I do it
right, whats next?


systemd-networkd, maybe - see, for example, the Arch wiki at
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-networkd

Andy

That's not a wrong answer, but for Gene's systems I would recommend
traditional Debian ifupdown (/etc/network/interfaces).  It's by far the
simplest, and the most widely supported among the community, in case
he has questions.


I concur





--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 14:30, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 13:40, John Hasler wrote:

I wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?


Gene writes:

Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away
from it.


Why won't "sudo apt remove --purge network-manager" work for you?
It did, but took the network down too after a reboot.  To make sure I do 
it right, whats next?


Thanks John.


I made /e/n/interfaces look like this:
gene@bananapim55:~$ cat /etc/network/interfaces
source /etc/network/interfaces.d/*
# Network is managed by Gene Heskett
auto lo eth0
iface lo inet loopback
iface eth0 inet static
address 192.168.71.55/24
gateway 192.168.71.1
gene@bananapim55:~$
and restarted /etc/init.d/networking.
And it all works.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 06:37:48PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 02:29:37PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > On 10/30/23 13:40, John Hasler wrote:
> > > I wrote:
> > > > Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?
> > > 
> > > Gene writes:
> > > > Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away
> > > > from it.
> > > 
> > > Why won't "sudo apt remove --purge network-manager" work for you?
> > It did, but took the network down too after a reboot.  To make sure I do it
> > right, whats next?
> > 
> 
> systemd-networkd, maybe - see, for example, the Arch wiki at
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-networkd
> 
> Andy

That's not a wrong answer, but for Gene's systems I would recommend
traditional Debian ifupdown (/etc/network/interfaces).  It's by far the
simplest, and the most widely supported among the community, in case
he has questions.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 02:29:37PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 10/30/23 13:40, John Hasler wrote:
> > I wrote:
> > > Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?
> > 
> > Gene writes:
> > > Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away
> > > from it.
> > 
> > Why won't "sudo apt remove --purge network-manager" work for you?
> It did, but took the network down too after a reboot.  To make sure I do it
> right, whats next?
> 

systemd-networkd, maybe - see, for example, the Arch wiki at
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-networkd

Andy

> Thanks John.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> 

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 13:40, John Hasler wrote:

I wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?


Gene writes:

Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away
from it.


Why won't "sudo apt remove --purge network-manager" work for you?
It did, but took the network down too after a reboot.  To make sure I do 
it right, whats next?


Thanks John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?

Gene writes:
> Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away
> from it.

Why won't "sudo apt remove --purge network-manager" work for you?
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 13:29, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 12:48, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 12:43, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 12:16, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?
Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get 
away from it. You can only make it somewhere near right and sudo 
chattr +i the files before networkmangler discovers you've fixed it.



upon first boot

apt purge --autoremove network-manager

Then don't fight the feeling...

I just did that to one of my arm64 boards, its took about 8 or 9 other 
accessory files to NM with it, but no net after a reboot which looks 
otherwise normal..  Now where it the RIGHT place to put the net info? 
ip a says its DOWN. /e/n/interfaces has only lo info in it.


Thank you, Pocket.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Try these links/docs

I think you want ifupdown configuration with/out DNS resolution as you 
have a manually set /etc/resolv.conf.


just the parts about bringing up the interface(s)

https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration

Section: Configuring the interface manually

and this, general network setup on debian

https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.network-config




--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 13:29, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 13:21, Pocket wrote:

apt purge network-manager


This is what I get running the above

sudo apt purge network-manager
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer 
required:
   dns-root-data libmbim-glib4 libmbim-proxy libmbim-utils libmm-glib0 
libndp0

   libqmi-glib5 libqmi-proxy libqmi-utils libqrtr-glib0 libteamdctl0
   modemmanager
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
   network-manager*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 16.1 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]


That worked autoremove worked differently but the end results were 
similar. And eth0 is DOWN on reboot.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 13:21, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 13:09, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 12:40, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 12:15, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?


That is an interesting question for Gene.

apt purge --autoremove network-manager will fix that.

I can do that?  The last 3 or 4 times I tried that, dependencies took 
the rest of the system down to bare metal and I had to re-install, so 
excuse me if I seem gun shy...  Apt or aptitude, same results.  I have 
rm'd the executable a few times but chattr fixes it better. That or 
once I removed the execute bits from the executable. That seemed to 
work too.



Then do this

apt purge network-manager

That will only remove networkmanager


And about  or 9 helpers dependent on NM.




Thank you, Pocket.  TAke care & stay well.

I take a bit different opinion from Gene, instead of chattr +i 
/etc/resolv.conf I work to figure out how to setup the software.


setting files to immutable is not how to do things in my opinion

If it doesn't work either I am doing something wrong or don't 
understand how to set it up or all the above, that includes 
understanding or not the docs


I agree whole heartedly with this attitude. But we've got man pages in 
some cases 25 damned years old that can't be brought up to what the 
code does today. Or to save space on the install dvd, man pages are 
heavily culled.


Even on this list examples of how to do it correctly are similar to 
pulling teeth. You tell me I'm wrong, and I likely am, but only a few 
will tell me how to do it /right/ by this weeks code. That is what I'm 
hoping to get, not this endless thread.



I am painfully aware of that, but I also know that there isn't anything 
I can do to fix that







In my case NetworkManager got installed by my "default" installation 
method, (I don't know why and don't really care) so in my mind I need 
to work with it.


I want to manage ip addresses/dns server addresses on my network 
using DHCP.


Having to setup things using static addressing is not my cup of tea, 
been there, done that and got the scars from it.


https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/becoming-friends-networkmanager

https://www.baeldung.com/linux/network-manager


Thank you for taking the time to reply, Pocket.
Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Hey, it's me what could go wrong?




Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 12:48, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 12:43, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 12:16, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?
Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away 
from it. You can only make it somewhere near right and sudo chattr +i 
the files before networkmangler discovers you've fixed it.



upon first boot

apt purge --autoremove network-manager

Then don't fight the feeling...

I just did that to one of my arm64 boards, its took about 8 or 9 other 
accessory files to NM with it, but no net after a reboot which looks 
otherwise normal..  Now where it the RIGHT place to put the net info? 
ip a says its DOWN. /e/n/interfaces has only lo info in it.


Thank you, Pocket.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 13:21, Pocket wrote:

apt purge network-manager


This is what I get running the above

sudo apt purge network-manager
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer 
required:
  dns-root-data libmbim-glib4 libmbim-proxy libmbim-utils libmm-glib0 
libndp0

  libqmi-glib5 libqmi-proxy libqmi-utils libqrtr-glib0 libteamdctl0
  modemmanager
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  network-manager*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 16.1 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 13:09, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 12:40, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 12:15, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?


That is an interesting question for Gene.

apt purge --autoremove network-manager will fix that.

I can do that?  The last 3 or 4 times I tried that, dependencies took 
the rest of the system down to bare metal and I had to re-install, so 
excuse me if I seem gun shy...  Apt or aptitude, same results.  I have 
rm'd the executable a few times but chattr fixes it better. That or 
once I removed the execute bits from the executable. That seemed to 
work too.



Then do this

apt purge network-manager

That will only remove networkmanager




Thank you, Pocket.  TAke care & stay well.

I take a bit different opinion from Gene, instead of chattr +i 
/etc/resolv.conf I work to figure out how to setup the software.


setting files to immutable is not how to do things in my opinion

If it doesn't work either I am doing something wrong or don't 
understand how to set it up or all the above, that includes 
understanding or not the docs


I agree whole heartedly with this attitude. But we've got man pages in 
some cases 25 damned years old that can't be brought up to what the 
code does today. Or to save space on the install dvd, man pages are 
heavily culled.


Even on this list examples of how to do it correctly are similar to 
pulling teeth. You tell me I'm wrong, and I likely am, but only a few 
will tell me how to do it /right/ by this weeks code. That is what I'm 
hoping to get, not this endless thread.



I am painfully aware of that, but I also know that there isn't anything 
I can do to fix that







In my case NetworkManager got installed by my "default" installation 
method, (I don't know why and don't really care) so in my mind I need 
to work with it.


I want to manage ip addresses/dns server addresses on my network 
using DHCP.


Having to setup things using static addressing is not my cup of tea, 
been there, done that and got the scars from it.


https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/becoming-friends-networkmanager

https://www.baeldung.com/linux/network-manager


Thank you for taking the time to reply, Pocket.
Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Hey, it's me what could go wrong?


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 12:40, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 12:15, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?


That is an interesting question for Gene.

apt purge --autoremove network-manager will fix that.

I can do that?  The last 3 or 4 times I tried that, dependencies took 
the rest of the system down to bare metal and I had to re-install, so 
excuse me if I seem gun shy...  Apt or aptitude, same results.  I have 
rm'd the executable a few times but chattr fixes it better. That or once 
I removed the execute bits from the executable. That seemed to work too.


Thank you, Pocket.  TAke care & stay well.

I take a bit different opinion from Gene, instead of chattr +i 
/etc/resolv.conf I work to figure out how to setup the software.


setting files to immutable is not how to do things in my opinion

If it doesn't work either I am doing something wrong or don't understand 
how to set it up or all the above, that includes understanding or not 
the docs


I agree whole heartedly with this attitude. But we've got man pages in 
some cases 25 damned years old that can't be brought up to what the code 
does today. Or to save space on the install dvd, man pages are heavily 
culled.


Even on this list examples of how to do it correctly are similar to 
pulling teeth. You tell me I'm wrong, and I likely am, but only a few 
will tell me how to do it /right/ by this weeks code. That is what I'm 
hoping to get, not this endless thread.




In my case NetworkManager got installed by my "default" installation 
method, (I don't know why and don't really care) so in my mind I need to 
work with it.


I want to manage ip addresses/dns server addresses on my network using 
DHCP.


Having to setup things using static addressing is not my cup of tea, 
been there, done that and got the scars from it.


https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/becoming-friends-networkmanager

https://www.baeldung.com/linux/network-manager


Thank you for taking the time to reply, Pocket.
Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 12:43, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/30/23 12:16, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?
Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away 
from it. You can only make it somewhere near right and sudo chattr +i 
the files before networkmangler discovers you've fixed it.



upon first boot

apt purge --autoremove network-manager

Then don't fight the feeling...

--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 12:16, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?
Std image dd'd to u-sd card install on the arm64 stuff, can't get away 
from it. You can only make it somewhere near right and sudo chattr +i 
the files before networkmangler discovers you've fixed it.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 12:15, John Hasler wrote:

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?


That is an interesting question for Gene.

apt purge --autoremove network-manager will fix that.

I take a bit different opinion from Gene, instead of chattr +i 
/etc/resolv.conf I work to figure out how to setup the software.


setting files to immutable is not how to do things in my opinion

If it doesn't work either I am doing something wrong or don't understand 
how to set it up or all the above, that includes understanding or not 
the docs


In my case NetworkManager got installed by my "default" installation 
method, (I don't know why and don't really care) so in my mind I need to 
work with it.


I want to manage ip addresses/dns server addresses on my network using DHCP.

Having to setup things using static addressing is not my cup of tea, 
been there, done that and got the scars from it.


https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/becoming-friends-networkmanager

https://www.baeldung.com/linux/network-manager

--

It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 10:57, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 29/10/2023 23:24, gene heskett wrote:
finally solved by editing resolv.conf to put the nameserver address 
into it, followed by a chattr +i resolv.conf. I have no d clue where 
mangler


I have realized that it is a nice stance taking into account that the 
topic of the original thread was configuring DNS plugins of 
NetworkManager...


.

Thank you Max. Take care and stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 08:25, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 08:19:24AM -0400, Pocket wrote:

On 10/30/23 03:54, gene heskett wrote:

[ipv4]
address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
dns=192.168.71.1;
dns-search=hosts;nameserver;



^

this is incorrect

nmcli connection modify Network_InterfaceName ipv4.dns-search
(searchDomainname- for multiple entry you can use comma)

That needs to be the domain you want to search ie

home.arpa in your case

Not the order of domain resolution, that is what /etc/nsswitch.conf is for.

dns-search=home.arpa;


Oh.  Wow.  We finally found out where that completely broken line in
Gene's /etc/resolv.conf came from!

Worse Greg, I don't ever recall editing any of that stuff, so its been 
like that since the 23rd or 24th bookworm install, when someone 
suggested I unplug all the usb stuff to do the install. That installer 
was busted as it did not ask me what to do, it just did it, because it 
found a usb-serial converter which I have two of here and just assumed I 
was blind! Which I was forced to do repeatedly because it would not 
reboot once I'd put a hot potatoe in orca's mouth and did away with 
brltty.  So everytime I had to reboot, I had to reinstall.


That and my home raid10 which worked in real time on buster, now takes 
30 seconds to 5 minutes just to draw a file requestor accessing this 
raid10. Once that is done, it works in real time. I've repeatedly fussed 
about that and been ignored. Am I the only one on the planet with that 
problem?  Access list problem or what, no one has made a single try this 
suggestion. But its sure a PITA to me.


And you all wonder why I seem to be short tempered...

Thanks Greg, take care & stay well.

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

Why do you have NetworkManager installed at all?
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 08:20, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 03:54, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/29/23 22:17, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 30/10/2023 00:08, Pocket wrote:

On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:
I have also made a very painfull attempt to change my domainname 
from coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally reverted that,


Gene, have you posted what exactly you did to switch from coyote.den 
to home.arpa? You have been told that setting NIS domainname was a 
wrong direction since you do not manage your hosts through NIS.


NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my 
opinion because it is querying the DHCP server.

[ ... ]> cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection

[ipv4]
method=auto
gene@coyote:/etc$  cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
cat: /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection: No 
such file or directory


Thats this machine, but applied to the problematic machine it becomes
sudo cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 
1.nmconnection'

which returns:
==
gene@bananapim55:/etc/systemd$ sudo cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'

[connection]
id=Wired connection 1
uuid=14621305-9887-3c6c-9e50-50894877ab68
type=ethernet
autoconnect-priority=999
interface-name=eth0
timestamp=1698571927

[ethernet]
cloned-mac-address=BE:63:9C:35:DD:4F
duplex=full
speed=1000

[ipv4]
address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
dns=192.168.71.1;
dns-search=hosts;nameserver;



^

this is incorrect

nmcli connection modify Network_InterfaceName ipv4.dns-search 
(searchDomainname- for multiple entry you can use comma)


That needs to be the domain you want to search ie

home.arpa in your case

Not the order of domain resolution, that is what /etc/nsswitch.conf is for.

dns-search=home.arpa;


Please have a look at the working example I posted,


That msg now tagged FFR, thank you




Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/30/23 05:15, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:



On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 3:55 AM gene heskett > wrote:


On 10/29/23 22:17, Max Nikulin wrote:
 > On 30/10/2023 00:08, Pocket wrote:
 >> On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:
 >>> I have also made a very painfull attempt to change my
domainname from
 >>> coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally reverted that,
 >
 > Gene, have you posted what exactly you did to switch from
coyote.den to
 > home.arpa? You have been told that setting NIS domainname was a
wrong
 > direction since you do not manage your hosts through NIS.
 >
 >> NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my
opinion
 >> because it is querying the DHCP server.
 > [ ... ]> cat
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
 >> [ipv4]
 >> method=auto
gene@coyote:/etc$  cat
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
cat: /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection: No
such file or directory

Thats this machine, but applied to the problematic machine it becomes
sudo cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection
1.nmconnection'
which returns:
==
gene@bananapim55:/etc/systemd$ sudo cat
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'
[connection]
id=Wired connection 1
uuid=14621305-9887-3c6c-9e50-50894877ab68
type=ethernet
autoconnect-priority=999
interface-name=eth0
timestamp=1698571927

[ethernet]
cloned-mac-address=BE:63:9C:35:DD:4F
duplex=full
speed=1000

[ipv4]
address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1

dns=192.168.71.1;
dns-search=hosts;nameserver;
ignore-auto-routes=true
may-fail=false
method=manual
route1=192.168.71.1/24,192.168.71.1



Try adding ignore-auto-dns=true with this setting you should not need to 
make resolv.conf immutable. You may also want to add a default gateway 
route.


Thank you Timothy, I appreciate the advice and the msg is tagged FFR, 
but I've no clue as to the "proper" way to edit that. Making resolv.conf 
immutable seems to be the way to permanently insulate me from NM's 
broken idea of whats right. Gateway is set in the edit pulldown that 
opens from the status icon at the top right corner of the screen. Which 
works but upsets me because it has no "about" info anyplace to identify 
the src of that whole shebang.  And as I explained in another post, I 
can't file bugzilla stuff. And I am not seeing anything indicating there 
is a way to fix that. IOW, nobody cares.


[ipv6]
addr-gen-mode=stable-privacy
method=disabled

[proxy]

All of which now looks totally legit once /etc/resolv.conf was made
immutable.  As an aside, I have yet to see a complaint from modern NM
when it finds that file cannot be changed. When it was new, many
generations ago, it had a cow quite regularly. Then the only way to
clean up the logs was to rm the executable. It, when new, was not
removable by apt as it took the rest of the system with it. So I've
always looked at NM as something looking for a problem I didn't
have.  A
Karen to be removed by whatever means worked.  A root rm usually solved
it all. So for me, its still, in the year of our lord 2023, a PITA.  A
hosts file for local lookups, with anything not found there
forwarded to
my ISP's dns server is all I've ever needed. And it has not changed in
25 years. To me, dhcp is a total waste of cpu cycles.
 >
 > Gene has no DHCP server, so it should be method=manual. Frankly
 > speaking, I see almost no advantages of NetworkManager over
ifupdown in
 > a purely static network. E.g. cable plug/unplug events should not
matter
 > since there is no need to update configuration in response.
 >
 > .

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:

   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
respectable.
   - Louis D. Brandeis



--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/ 
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Max Nikulin]

On 29/10/2023 23:24, gene heskett wrote:
finally solved by editing resolv.conf to put the nameserver address into 
it, followed by a chattr +i resolv.conf. I have no d clue where mangler


I have realized that it is a nice stance taking into account that the 
topic of the original thread was configuring DNS plugins of 
NetworkManager...

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 08:24, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 08:19:24AM -0400, Pocket wrote:

On 10/30/23 03:54, gene heskett wrote:

[ipv4]
address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
dns=192.168.71.1;
dns-search=hosts;nameserver;


^

this is incorrect

nmcli connection modify Network_InterfaceName ipv4.dns-search
(searchDomainname- for multiple entry you can use comma)

That needs to be the domain you want to search ie

home.arpa in your case

Not the order of domain resolution, that is what /etc/nsswitch.conf is for.

dns-search=home.arpa;

Oh.  Wow.  We finally found out where that completely broken line in
Gene's /etc/resolv.conf came from!


Sometimes I even amaze myself

--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 08:19:24AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> On 10/30/23 03:54, gene heskett wrote:
> > [ipv4]
> > address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
> > dns=192.168.71.1;
> > dns-search=hosts;nameserver;
> 
> 
> ^
> 
> this is incorrect
> 
> nmcli connection modify Network_InterfaceName ipv4.dns-search
> (searchDomainname- for multiple entry you can use comma)
> 
> That needs to be the domain you want to search ie
> 
> home.arpa in your case
> 
> Not the order of domain resolution, that is what /etc/nsswitch.conf is for.
> 
> dns-search=home.arpa;

Oh.  Wow.  We finally found out where that completely broken line in
Gene's /etc/resolv.conf came from!

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 08:19, Pocket wrote:


On 10/30/23 03:54, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/29/23 22:17, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 30/10/2023 00:08, Pocket wrote:

On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:
I have also made a very painfull attempt to change my domainname 
from coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally reverted that,


Gene, have you posted what exactly you did to switch from coyote.den 
to home.arpa? You have been told that setting NIS domainname was a 
wrong direction since you do not manage your hosts through NIS.


NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my 
opinion because it is querying the DHCP server.
[ ... ]> cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection

[ipv4]
method=auto
gene@coyote:/etc$  cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
cat: /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection: No 
such file or directory


Thats this machine, but applied to the problematic machine it becomes
sudo cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 
1.nmconnection'

which returns:
==
gene@bananapim55:/etc/systemd$ sudo cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'

[connection]
id=Wired connection 1
uuid=14621305-9887-3c6c-9e50-50894877ab68
type=ethernet
autoconnect-priority=999
interface-name=eth0
timestamp=1698571927

[ethernet]
cloned-mac-address=BE:63:9C:35:DD:4F
duplex=full
speed=1000

[ipv4]
address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
dns=192.168.71.1;
dns-search=hosts;nameserver;



^

this is incorrect

nmcli connection modify Network_InterfaceName ipv4.dns-search 
(searchDomainname- for multiple entry you can use comma)


That needs to be the domain you want to search ie

home.arpa in your case

Not the order of domain resolution, that is what /etc/nsswitch.conf is 
for.


dns-search=home.arpa;



|ipv4.dns-search|



List of DNS search domains. Domains starting with a tilde ('~') are 
considered 'routing' domains and are used only to decide the interface 
over which a query must be forwarded; they are not used to complete 
unqualified host names.


When using a DNS plugin that supports Conditional Forwarding or Split 
DNS, then the search domains specify which name servers to query. This 
makes the behavior different from running with plain /etc/resolv.conf. 
For more information see also the dns-priority setting.


When set on a profile that also enabled DHCP, the DNS search list 
received automatically (option 119 for DHCPv4 and option 24 for DHCPv6) 
gets merged with the manual list. This can be prevented by setting 
"ignore-auto-dns". Note that if no DNS searches are configured, the 
fallback will be derived from the domain from DHCP (option 15).


Format: array of string



https://networkmanager.dev/docs/api/latest/nm-settings-nmcli.html

--

It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/30/23 03:54, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/29/23 22:17, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 30/10/2023 00:08, Pocket wrote:

On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:
I have also made a very painfull attempt to change my domainname 
from coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally reverted that,


Gene, have you posted what exactly you did to switch from coyote.den 
to home.arpa? You have been told that setting NIS domainname was a 
wrong direction since you do not manage your hosts through NIS.


NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my 
opinion because it is querying the DHCP server.

[ ... ]> cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection

[ipv4]
method=auto
gene@coyote:/etc$  cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
cat: /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection: No 
such file or directory


Thats this machine, but applied to the problematic machine it becomes
sudo cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 
1.nmconnection'

which returns:
==
gene@bananapim55:/etc/systemd$ sudo cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'

[connection]
id=Wired connection 1
uuid=14621305-9887-3c6c-9e50-50894877ab68
type=ethernet
autoconnect-priority=999
interface-name=eth0
timestamp=1698571927

[ethernet]
cloned-mac-address=BE:63:9C:35:DD:4F
duplex=full
speed=1000

[ipv4]
address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
dns=192.168.71.1;
dns-search=hosts;nameserver;



^

this is incorrect

nmcli connection modify Network_InterfaceName ipv4.dns-search 
(searchDomainname- for multiple entry you can use comma)


That needs to be the domain you want to search ie

home.arpa in your case

Not the order of domain resolution, that is what /etc/nsswitch.conf is for.

dns-search=home.arpa;


Please have a look at the working example I posted,

--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 3:55 AM gene heskett  wrote:

> On 10/29/23 22:17, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > On 30/10/2023 00:08, Pocket wrote:
> >> On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:
> >>> I have also made a very painfull attempt to change my domainname from
> >>> coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally reverted that,
> >
> > Gene, have you posted what exactly you did to switch from coyote.den to
> > home.arpa? You have been told that setting NIS domainname was a wrong
> > direction since you do not manage your hosts through NIS.
> >
> >> NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my opinion
> >> because it is querying the DHCP server.
> > [ ... ]> cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
> >> [ipv4]
> >> method=auto
> gene@coyote:/etc$  cat
> /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
> cat: /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection: No
> such file or directory
>
> Thats this machine, but applied to the problematic machine it becomes
> sudo cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection
> 1.nmconnection'
> which returns:
> ==
> gene@bananapim55:/etc/systemd$ sudo cat
> /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'
> [connection]
> id=Wired connection 1
> uuid=14621305-9887-3c6c-9e50-50894877ab68
> type=ethernet
> autoconnect-priority=999
> interface-name=eth0
> timestamp=1698571927
>
> [ethernet]
> cloned-mac-address=BE:63:9C:35:DD:4F
> duplex=full
> speed=1000
>
> [ipv4]
> address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
> dns=192.168.71.1;
> dns-search=hosts;nameserver;
> ignore-auto-routes=true
> may-fail=false
> method=manual
> route1=192.168.71.1/24,192.168.71.1
>

Try adding ignore-auto-dns=true with this setting you should not need to
make resolv.conf immutable. You may also want to add a default gateway
route.


> [ipv6]
> addr-gen-mode=stable-privacy
> method=disabled
>
> [proxy]
> 
> All of which now looks totally legit once /etc/resolv.conf was made
> immutable.  As an aside, I have yet to see a complaint from modern NM
> when it finds that file cannot be changed. When it was new, many
> generations ago, it had a cow quite regularly. Then the only way to
> clean up the logs was to rm the executable. It, when new, was not
> removable by apt as it took the rest of the system with it. So I've
> always looked at NM as something looking for a problem I didn't have.  A
> Karen to be removed by whatever means worked.  A root rm usually solved
> it all. So for me, its still, in the year of our lord 2023, a PITA.  A
> hosts file for local lookups, with anything not found there forwarded to
> my ISP's dns server is all I've ever needed. And it has not changed in
> 25 years. To me, dhcp is a total waste of cpu cycles.
> >
> > Gene has no DHCP server, so it should be method=manual. Frankly
> > speaking, I see almost no advantages of NetworkManager over ifupdown in
> > a purely static network. E.g. cable plug/unplug events should not matter
> > since there is no need to update configuration in response.
> >
> > .
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
>
>

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/29/23 22:17, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 30/10/2023 00:08, Pocket wrote:

On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:
I have also made a very painfull attempt to change my domainname from 
coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally reverted that,


Gene, have you posted what exactly you did to switch from coyote.den to 
home.arpa? You have been told that setting NIS domainname was a wrong 
direction since you do not manage your hosts through NIS.


NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my opinion 
because it is querying the DHCP server.

[ ... ]> cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection

[ipv4]
method=auto
gene@coyote:/etc$  cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
cat: /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection: No 
such file or directory


Thats this machine, but applied to the problematic machine it becomes
sudo cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 
1.nmconnection'

which returns:
==
gene@bananapim55:/etc/systemd$ sudo cat 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'

[connection]
id=Wired connection 1
uuid=14621305-9887-3c6c-9e50-50894877ab68
type=ethernet
autoconnect-priority=999
interface-name=eth0
timestamp=1698571927

[ethernet]
cloned-mac-address=BE:63:9C:35:DD:4F
duplex=full
speed=1000

[ipv4]
address1=192.168.71.55/24,192.168.71.1
dns=192.168.71.1;
dns-search=hosts;nameserver;
ignore-auto-routes=true
may-fail=false
method=manual
route1=192.168.71.1/24,192.168.71.1

[ipv6]
addr-gen-mode=stable-privacy
method=disabled

[proxy]

All of which now looks totally legit once /etc/resolv.conf was made 
immutable.  As an aside, I have yet to see a complaint from modern NM 
when it finds that file cannot be changed. When it was new, many 
generations ago, it had a cow quite regularly. Then the only way to 
clean up the logs was to rm the executable. It, when new, was not 
removable by apt as it took the rest of the system with it. So I've 
always looked at NM as something looking for a problem I didn't have.  A 
Karen to be removed by whatever means worked.  A root rm usually solved 
it all. So for me, its still, in the year of our lord 2023, a PITA.  A 
hosts file for local lookups, with anything not found there forwarded to 
my ISP's dns server is all I've ever needed. And it has not changed in 
25 years. To me, dhcp is a total waste of cpu cycles.


Gene has no DHCP server, so it should be method=manual. Frankly 
speaking, I see almost no advantages of NetworkManager over ifupdown in 
a purely static network. E.g. cable plug/unplug events should not matter 
since there is no need to update configuration in response.


.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Max Nikulin]

On 30/10/2023 01:21, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
Also see 
,

where the systemd folks said to modify the hostname by hand because
hostnamectl butchered the fully qualified hostname.


Debian bookworm is not affected by this decade-old bug.

I am however unsure concerning reasons behind the following suggestion 
in respect to /etc/hostname


hostname(5) from systemd

It is recommended that this name contains only a single label, i.e.
without any dots.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Max Nikulin]

On 30/10/2023 00:08, Pocket wrote:

On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:
I have also made a very painfull attempt to 
change my domainname from coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally 
reverted that,


Gene, have you posted what exactly you did to switch from coyote.den to 
home.arpa? You have been told that setting NIS domainname was a wrong 
direction since you do not manage your hosts through NIS.


NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my opinion 
because it is querying the DHCP server.

[ ... ]> cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection

[ipv4]
method=auto


Gene has no DHCP server, so it should be method=manual. Frankly 
speaking, I see almost no advantages of NetworkManager over ifupdown in 
a purely static network. E.g. cable plug/unplug events should not matter 
since there is no need to update configuration in response.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> possibly, its a Buffalo Netfinity with a now elderly dd-wrt reflash,
> and whose pw I've long since forgot, and its 30 chars of random
> gibberish IIRC.

Write the password on the router.  Write all your passwords down.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 3:14 PM Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 09:30:09AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> >
> > > On Oct 27, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:59:00AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> > >>> On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > >>> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> >  /etc/hosts
> > >>> If you're using short-form hostnames like this:
> > >>>
> > >>> unicorn:~$ hostname
> > >>> unicorn
> > >>>
> > >>> then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
> > >>> (with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.
>
> hostnamectl set-hostname is the command to do it - and will survive a reboot.

Also see 
,
where the systemd folks said to modify the hostname by hand because
hostnamectl butchered the fully qualified hostname.

I'm not sure if it still applies. I avoid hostnamectl. I don't care
about mDNS. DNS is the source of truth on my networks.

Jeff

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/29/23 13:09, Pocket wrote:


On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/29/23 10:23, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 27 Oct 2023 at 11:13:59 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:


You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
192.168.71.3    coyote.home.arpa    coyote
but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname
file has been deleted. As in not visible to an ls of /etc. hostname
works as it should. My hosts file is all long form, dotted names with
a trailing alias.
So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return"
and wrote the flle.
results:

You are quite right David, /etc/domainname was composed by me in nano 
after that was posted, I have also made a very painfull attempt to 
change my domainname from coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally 
reverted that, amoung an attack by network mangler, finally solved by 
editing resolv.conf to put the nameserver address into it, followed by 
a chattr +i resolv.conf. I have no d clue where mangler gets the 
"search coyote.den" it keeps putting in resolv.conf every 45 seconds 
as it times out and sets it offline for 5 seconds. Maybe its not 
right, but it fixes it.  All of the -alphabet options to hostname now 
work once I edited out the domainname part of /etc/hostname. IMO, 
giving network mangler the ability to change resolv.conf has been the 
single glaringly biggest headache for hosts file users in the last 
decade. After 3 days of screwing around with an armbian jammy on a 
bananapi-m5, one of many on this home network, its finally working. I 
had to revert to an earlier xfce desktop image to get the video to 
work. Then with everything looking correct, I had a net connection for 
45 seconds, followed by a 5 second reset. So chattr +i to the rescue 
after making sure the nameserver address was in resolv.conf.



NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my opinion 
because it is querying the DHCP server.


After much trouble this is my current setup for what will become my new 
DNS, NFS and web server


which BTW is running on a raspberry pi 4, with debian bookworm.

Be mindful of the following NetworkManager uses this if the 
configuration file is not in 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/


ls  /run/NetworkManager/system-connections/
'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'   lo.nmconnection

My setup:

cat /etc/hostname

gremlin

cat /etc/hosts
127.0.0.1    localhost
::1        localhost ip6-localhost ip6-loopback
ff02::1        ip6-allnodes
ff02::2        ip6-allrouters
127.0.1.1    gremlin.home.arpa gremlin

cat /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf
[main]
plugins=ifupdown,keyfile

[ifupdown]
managed=false

[device]
wifi.scan-rand-mac-address=no

[global-dns]
options=edns0 trust-ad

This is for my Wireless connection, Wired has the same settings:

cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
[connection]
id=GREMLIN
uuid=49743fda-4a97-4ff4-b46a-a12a7b1383fb
type=wifi
interface-name=wlan0

[wifi]
mode=infrastructure
ssid=GREMLIN

[ipv4]
method=auto
dns-search=home.arpa;

[ipv6]
addr-gen-mode=stable-privacy
method=auto
dns-search=home.arpa;
dns=
ignore-auto-dns=true

  cat /etc/resolv.conf
# Generated by NetworkManager
search home.arpa
nameserver 192.168.1.1
nameserver 
options edns0 trust-ad

That is all it took to get it setup on my Network.

NetworkManager will populate /etc/resolv.conf using both wired and wifi 
connections/setup, maybe that is some of your troubles as well?


I make them with the same settings


Finally some info worth checking out and putting on dead tree.


Also maybe your router needs some TLC


possibly, its a Buffalo Netfinity with a now elderly dd-wrt reflash, and 
whose pw I've long since forgot, and its 30 chars of random gibberish 
IIRC. So I'll have to start with the long reset to factory, which was 
easy because the old asus mobo had two net plugs, but this one only has 
one. I have a spare router whose mac has been cloned that can be used in 
a pinch, but will need to get a usb to net dongle first. With a ups and 
auto stand by here, its not even been rebooted in years.  What can I 
say?  As a guard dog its sharp teeth have been 100% effective so I 
haven't had an excuse to log into it since I turned off the radio about 
5 years ago to keep a neighbors phone from using 80GB a month to watch 
porn. I could probably turn the radio back on, he spent some time in 
jail for mail nondelivery, and his woman thru him out when he got out, 
so he and his hacked phone are no longer neighbors. Found a dongle. 
Bought it.  Be here Tuesday.  And this time around, I'll set a pw and 
write it down. ;o)>



I have 4 more bananapi-m5's coming, so I may be back but last post on 
this thread unless someone can tell me how to housebreak network 
mangler. I'm plumb tuckered out from mopping up its messes.


Take care & stay well, all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.




Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, 

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/29/23 12:24, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/29/23 10:23, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 27 Oct 2023 at 11:13:59 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:


You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
192.168.71.3    coyote.home.arpa    coyote
but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname
file has been deleted. As in not visible to an ls of /etc. hostname
works as it should. My hosts file is all long form, dotted names with
a trailing alias.
So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return"
and wrote the flle.
results:

You are quite right David, /etc/domainname was composed by me in nano 
after that was posted, I have also made a very painfull attempt to 
change my domainname from coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally 
reverted that, amoung an attack by network mangler, finally solved by 
editing resolv.conf to put the nameserver address into it, followed by 
a chattr +i resolv.conf. I have no d clue where mangler gets the 
"search coyote.den" it keeps putting in resolv.conf every 45 seconds 
as it times out and sets it offline for 5 seconds. Maybe its not 
right, but it fixes it.  All of the -alphabet options to hostname now 
work once I edited out the domainname part of /etc/hostname. IMO, 
giving network mangler the ability to change resolv.conf has been the 
single glaringly biggest headache for hosts file users in the last 
decade. After 3 days of screwing around with an armbian jammy on a 
bananapi-m5, one of many on this home network, its finally working. I 
had to revert to an earlier xfce desktop image to get the video to 
work. Then with everything looking correct, I had a net connection for 
45 seconds, followed by a 5 second reset. So chattr +i to the rescue 
after making sure the nameserver address was in resolv.conf.



NetworkManager keeps updating the /etc/resolv.conf file in my opinion 
because it is querying the DHCP server.


After much trouble this is my current setup for what will become my new 
DNS, NFS and web server


which BTW is running on a raspberry pi 4, with debian bookworm.

Be mindful of the following NetworkManager uses this if the 
configuration file is not in 
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/


ls  /run/NetworkManager/system-connections/
'Wired connection 1.nmconnection'   lo.nmconnection

My setup:

cat /etc/hostname

gremlin

cat /etc/hosts
127.0.0.1    localhost
::1        localhost ip6-localhost ip6-loopback
ff02::1        ip6-allnodes
ff02::2        ip6-allrouters
127.0.1.1    gremlin.home.arpa gremlin

cat /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf
[main]
plugins=ifupdown,keyfile

[ifupdown]
managed=false

[device]
wifi.scan-rand-mac-address=no

[global-dns]
options=edns0 trust-ad

This is for my Wireless connection, Wired has the same settings:

cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/GREMLIN.nmconnection
[connection]
id=GREMLIN
uuid=49743fda-4a97-4ff4-b46a-a12a7b1383fb
type=wifi
interface-name=wlan0

[wifi]
mode=infrastructure
ssid=GREMLIN

[ipv4]
method=auto
dns-search=home.arpa;

[ipv6]
addr-gen-mode=stable-privacy
method=auto
dns-search=home.arpa;
dns=
ignore-auto-dns=true

 cat /etc/resolv.conf
# Generated by NetworkManager
search home.arpa
nameserver 192.168.1.1
nameserver 
options edns0 trust-ad

That is all it took to get it setup on my Network.

NetworkManager will populate /etc/resolv.conf using both wired and wifi 
connections/setup, maybe that is some of your troubles as well?


I make them with the same settings

Also maybe your router needs some TLC


I have 4 more bananapi-m5's coming, so I may be back but last post on 
this thread unless someone can tell me how to housebreak network 
mangler. I'm plumb tuckered out from mopping up its messes.


Take care & stay well, all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/29/23 10:23, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 27 Oct 2023 at 11:13:59 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:


You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote
but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname
file has been deleted. As in not visible to an ls of /etc. hostname
works as it should. My hosts file is all long form, dotted names with
a trailing alias.
So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return"
and wrote the flle.
results:

gene@coyote:/etc$ sudo nano domainnane
[sudo] password for gene:
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ cat domainname
cat: domainname: No such file or directory
now I see the typu. sudo mv to fx the files name. but even with a
corrected filename visible to an ls:
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ cat domainname
home.arpa

I'd reboot again, but that, by the time I get everything remounted and
my system fully operational, takes me entering my pw about 20 times.
when done I am logged into 6 other machines via an ssh -X login to
each, and I've a sshfs file transfer link setup to each so mc can copy
work output around.  Then I can go to work.

Why was the domainname I set and could see with a cat, deleted by a
reboot?  Seems to be the question for the day... I sure didn't delete
it. But it was gone after a reboot.  Seems to me there ought to be a
PERMANENT way to do this. Now, even if the file exists, its ignored.


I'm just wondering where this file /etc/domainname came from in the
first place. I can't find it with apt-file (killing two birds):

   $ apt-file find etc/domain
   $

Neither can I find it/them in the install/remove scripts for the packages
on my systems:

   $ grep etc/domain /var/lib/dpkg/info/*
   $

I don't recall ever seeing either /etc/domainname or /etc/domain
in the past either, as I would have my copy backed up.

/etc/domainname might be anodyne on your system, but it raises
suspicions when this is meant to be a recent bookworm netinst
where "I'm not doing anything the installer didn't ask me to do"
(posted last week).

Cheers,
David.



You are quite right David, /etc/domainname was composed by me in nano 
after that was posted, I have also made a very painfull attempt to 
change my domainname from coyote.den to home.arpa, and finally reverted 
that, amoung an attack by network mangler, finally solved by editing 
resolv.conf to put the nameserver address into it, followed by a chattr 
+i resolv.conf. I have no d clue where mangler gets the "search 
coyote.den" it keeps putting in resolv.conf every 45 seconds as it times 
out and sets it offline for 5 seconds. Maybe its not right, but it fixes 
it.  All of the -alphabet options to hostname now work once I edited out 
the domainname part of /etc/hostname. IMO, giving network mangler the 
ability to change resolv.conf has been the single glaringly biggest 
headache for hosts file users in the last decade. After 3 days of 
screwing around with an armbian jammy on a bananapi-m5, one of many on 
this home network, its finally working. I had to revert to an earlier 
xfce desktop image to get the video to work.  Then with everything 
looking correct, I had a net connection for 45 seconds, followed by a 5 
second reset. So chattr +i to the rescue after making sure the 
nameserver address was in resolv.conf.


And the chrome browser is still broken, it cannot look at localhost:80, 
hostname:80 or alias:80. It blanks that out of the address line and 
refills it with 250+ chars of a failure message from google %$#^@!& dns 
server. I had to fix my net before I could install the snap of firefox, 
which DOES follow the lookup rules chrome refuses to use. google. spit.


I have 4 more bananapi-m5's coming, so I may be back but last post on 
this thread unless someone can tell me how to housebreak network 
mangler. I'm plumb tuckered out from mopping up its messes.


Take care & stay well, all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Max Nikulin]

On 27/10/2023 21:19, Greg Wooledge wrote:
More importantly, why on earth would this be recommended over editing 
the /etc/hostname file, which is *much* simpler, and which appears to be 
independent of the init system that's in use?


hostnamectl tries to prevent split brain /etc/hostname vs. kernel 
structures in RAM. "hostnamectl hostname --transient NAME" does not work 
if /etc/hostname is present. Notice diverged static and transient names 
in Gene's message



   Static hostname: coyote.home.arpa
Transient hostname: coyote


"hostnamectl hostname NAME" besides changing /etc/hosts calls 
sethostname(2) (or what libc provided instead of it), so it is less 
chance that a user will get inconsistent settings by forgetting another 
command.


I think, original intention was to provide D-Bus API for GUI and 
hostnamectl is just a CLI tool for that API.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

David Wright writes:
> I'm just wondering where this file /etc/domainname came from in the
> first place. I can't find it with apt-file (killing two birds):

Gene created it, having been confused by the hostname man page.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 09:22:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> I'm just wondering where this file /etc/domainname came from in the
> first place. I can't find it with apt-file (killing two birds):
> 
>   $ apt-file find etc/domain
>   $ 

I'm assuming either Gene created it himself, because he thought he needed
to, or his non-Debian installer created it, for reasons only the maintainer
of said installer would know.

Having that file on a non-NIS system doesn't actually hurt anything.
I advised Gene to remove his in order to avoid confusion.  We can all
do with less of that.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[David Wright]

On Fri 27 Oct 2023 at 11:13:59 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:

> You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
> 192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote
> but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname
> file has been deleted. As in not visible to an ls of /etc. hostname
> works as it should. My hosts file is all long form, dotted names with
> a trailing alias.
> So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return"
> and wrote the flle.
> results:
> 
> gene@coyote:/etc$ sudo nano domainnane
> [sudo] password for gene:
> gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
> (none)
> gene@coyote:/etc$ cat domainname
> cat: domainname: No such file or directory
> now I see the typu. sudo mv to fx the files name. but even with a
> corrected filename visible to an ls:
> gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
> (none)
> gene@coyote:/etc$ cat domainname
> home.arpa
> 
> I'd reboot again, but that, by the time I get everything remounted and
> my system fully operational, takes me entering my pw about 20 times.
> when done I am logged into 6 other machines via an ssh -X login to
> each, and I've a sshfs file transfer link setup to each so mc can copy
> work output around.  Then I can go to work.
> 
> Why was the domainname I set and could see with a cat, deleted by a
> reboot?  Seems to be the question for the day... I sure didn't delete
> it. But it was gone after a reboot.  Seems to me there ought to be a
> PERMANENT way to do this. Now, even if the file exists, its ignored.

I'm just wondering where this file /etc/domainname came from in the
first place. I can't find it with apt-file (killing two birds):

  $ apt-file find etc/domain
  $ 

Neither can I find it/them in the install/remove scripts for the packages
on my systems:

  $ grep etc/domain /var/lib/dpkg/info/*
  $ 

I don't recall ever seeing either /etc/domainname or /etc/domain
in the past either, as I would have my copy backed up.

/etc/domainname might be anodyne on your system, but it raises
suspicions when this is meant to be a recent bookworm netinst
where "I'm not doing anything the installer didn't ask me to do"
(posted last week).

Cheers,
David.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Max Nikulin]

On 28/10/2023 05:48, Jeffrey Walton wrote:


Yeah, just file a bug and let whomever else deal with it. Whatever
text is proposed, it will be rejected in favor of what the person with
check-in privileges wants.

Or worse, the person with check-in privileges will torture the
submitter with an endless stream of minute changes, as if the
submitter is a personal secretary, in an effort "teach" the submitter
for his/her benefit of expected volumes of future patches.


Be a bit more patient. A person may be busy with other tasks including 
patches from other people and has no time to explain why a suggested 
change may be confusing as well. They may be trying to preserve your 
authorship in git history. They may be unsure concerning proper wording 
and testing if alternatives may be interpreted incorrectly. It might 
help to express expectations explicitly.


Finally it is reality that not all proposed patches are applied even if 
you invest your time preparing them.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 2:04 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:53:40PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> > The NIS stuff should be evicted from the hostname man page.
>
> Well... maybe?  While the use of NIS hostname resolution is strongly
> discouraged, it's not *forbidden*.  A system admin might, in theory,
> be using NIS to serve up hostname/IP mappings, in which case the NIS
> commands and references might be needed.
>
> The part of hostname(1) that struck me as needing amendment was this:
>
>The   host   name   is   usually   set   once   at  system  startup  in
>/etc/init.d/hostname.sh (normally by reading the  contents  of  a  file
>which contains the host name, e.g.  /etc/hostname).
>
> My Debian 12 system does not have an /etc/init.d/hostname.sh file,
> or anything else that's close to it.
>
> unicorn:/etc/init.d$ grep hostname *
> unicorn:/etc/init.d$
>
> Whatever's reading /etc/hostname comes from another location.

That could be Systemd. They used to recommend changing /etc/hostname
directly: 
.

> In any case, this is clearly a man page *not* written by Debian, so
> getting changes made to it is going to be like pulling teeth.  Don't even
> bother submitting Debian bug reports against upstream man pages, in
> my experience.  You can try your luck with upstream projects, but even
> then it's really unlikely you'll ever get a documentation patch accepted.

Yeah, just file a bug and let whomever else deal with it. Whatever
text is proposed, it will be rejected in favor of what the person with
check-in privileges wants.

Or worse, the person with check-in privileges will torture the
submitter with an endless stream of minute changes, as if the
submitter is a personal secretary, in an effort "teach" the submitter
for his/her benefit of expected volumes of future patches.

Jeff

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Marco M.]

Am 27.10.2023 um 12:09:23 Uhr schrieb gene heskett:

> On 10/27/23 10:40, Marco M. wrote:
> > Am 27.10.2023 um 10:37:12 Uhr schrieb gene heskett:
> >   
> >> Its in there, for this machine, but on a reboot, the domainname
> >> reverts to "none" Apparently I didn't use the approved systemd way
> >> to change it. from a cat of /etc/hosts:
> >> 192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote  
> > 
> > That is only relevant for the name resolution, not for the name your
> > system has.
> >   
> 
> Picky, define the differemce please.

/etc/hostname sets the name that is being used for the prompt in your
terminal, for outgoing mail (MTA uses that by default, but can be
changed) and such stuff. If you don't have that in /etc/hosts, it can't
be resolved to an IP address by that method. Some applications require
it to work and unicast DNS is not always available and won't resolve to
::1/127.0.0.1.
If you only put it in /etc/hosts, name resolution will work, but you
system doesn't use that as hostname.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[The Wanderer]

On 2023-10-27 at 14:57, John Hasler wrote:

> I wrote:

> Greg writes:

>> My Debian 12 system does not have an /etc/init.d/hostname.sh file,
>> or anything else that's close to it.
> 
> My desktop, which has been upgraded many times, does have
> /etc/init.d/hostname.sh.  However, a recently installed Bookworm does
> not.

Mine does:

$ dlocate /etc/init.d/hostname.sh
initscripts: /etc/init.d/hostname.sh
$ apt-file search /etc/init.d/hostname.sh
initscripts: /etc/init.d/hostname.sh

At least in current testing+stable, it's contained exclusively in the
'initscripts' package. My guess is that a machine running systemd will
not include that package, and therefore will not have this script.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> The NIS stuff should be evicted from the hostname man page.

Greg writes:
> Well... maybe?  While the use of NIS hostname resolution is strongly
> discouraged, it's not *forbidden*.  A system admin might, in theory,
> be using NIS to serve up hostname/IP mappings, in which case the NIS
> commands and references might be needed.

Evicted to a page of their own.  I realize that it won't happen.

> The part of hostname(1) that struck me as needing amendment was this:

>   The   host   name   is   usually   set   once   at  system  startup  in
>   /etc/init.d/hostname.sh (normally by reading the  contents  of  a  file
>   which contains the host name, e.g.  /etc/hostname).

> My Debian 12 system does not have an /etc/init.d/hostname.sh file,
> or anything else that's close to it.

My desktop, which has been upgraded many times, does have
/etc/init.d/hostname.sh.  However, a recently installed Bookworm does
not.

> Whatever's reading /etc/hostname comes from another location.

systemd-hostnamed
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:53:40PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> The NIS stuff should be evicted from the hostname man page.

Well... maybe?  While the use of NIS hostname resolution is strongly
discouraged, it's not *forbidden*.  A system admin might, in theory,
be using NIS to serve up hostname/IP mappings, in which case the NIS
commands and references might be needed.

The part of hostname(1) that struck me as needing amendment was this:

   The   host   name   is   usually   set   once   at  system  startup  in
   /etc/init.d/hostname.sh (normally by reading the  contents  of  a  file
   which contains the host name, e.g.  /etc/hostname).

My Debian 12 system does not have an /etc/init.d/hostname.sh file,
or anything else that's close to it.

unicorn:/etc/init.d$ grep hostname *
unicorn:/etc/init.d$ 

Whatever's reading /etc/hostname comes from another location.

In any case, this is clearly a man page *not* written by Debian, so
getting changes made to it is going to be like pulling teeth.  Don't even
bother submitting Debian bug reports against upstream man pages, in
my experience.  You can try your luck with upstream projects, but even
then it's really unlikely you'll ever get a documentation patch accepted.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

The NIS stuff should be evicted from the hostname man page.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:46:16PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> So this is what I get now:
> gene@coyote:/etc$ dnsdomainname
> home.arpa
> gene@coyote:/etc$ hostname
> coyote.home.arpa
> gene@coyote:/etc$ cat hostname
> coyote
> Is that correct and will it withstand a reboot?

Your hostname will go back to "coyote" at reboot, which is good, because
that's what it was originally, and clearly what it's supposed to be.

If you want it to go back to the original hostname without needing to
reboot, you can run "sudo hostname coyote" to change it immediately.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 11:23:19AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Gene writes:
> > Define NIS please.
> 
> Network Information Service.  You've never heard of it because it's
> obsolete.  You should ignore it.
> 
> 

Originally known as "Yellow Pages" (YP), the name had to be changed
because of trademarks.  However, most of the NIS command names begin with
"yp" (ypinit, ypwhich, ypset, and so on) and those never changed.  For
reasons unknown to me, "domainname" is one of the exceptions.  Why
they didn't call it "ypdomainname" or "ypdomain", I do not know.

If you don't know what NIS is, that's totally fine.  You obviously don't
use it or need it.

Even among actual NIS users, the use of NIS's hostname resolution features
is *severely* deprecated.  Common advice is to use NIS only for users,
groups, service names, and things associated with those.  For hostname
resolution, you should use DNS instead.

In any case, both NIS and DNS have a "domain name", but they are different
and it's important not to mix them up.  On systems that use both, it's
common for the two domain names to be different from each other, to avoid
accidents.  (On some of my systems at work, the NIS domain name is
"neurology" whereas the DNS domain name is "eeg.ccf.org".)

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 27 Oct 2023 17:02 +, from 2695bd53d...@ewoof.net (Michael Kjörling):
>> HOSTNAME(1)  Linux Programmer's Manual HOSTNAME(1)
>> 
>> NAME
>>hostname - show or set the system's host name
>>domainname - show or set the system's NIS/YP domain name
>>ypdomainname - show or set the system's NIS/YP domain name
>>nisdomainname - show or set the system's NIS/YP domain name
>>dnsdomainname - show the system's DNS domain name
> 
> Even for someone who doesn't know what "NIS/YP" is, that should be a
> strong suggestion already that it is _not_ the same thing as "DNS".

Addendum: And that even if you don't know what DNS _or_ NIS/YP is, it
should be a clue that there are different things called "domain name"
which don't necessarily have much if anything in common.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 27 Oct 2023 11:45 -0500, from j...@sugarbit.com (John Hasler):
>> Here are the first lines of 'man domainname" :
> 
> That doesn't help very much with no hint as to what NIS is and that it
> isn't relevant to DNS.

The part of the beginning of that man page which Erwan didn't quote
does seem a bit more helpful, though. Quoting the entire NAME section:

> HOSTNAME(1)  Linux Programmer's Manual HOSTNAME(1)
> 
> NAME
>hostname - show or set the system's host name
>domainname - show or set the system's NIS/YP domain name
>ypdomainname - show or set the system's NIS/YP domain name
>nisdomainname - show or set the system's NIS/YP domain name
>dnsdomainname - show the system's DNS domain name

Even for someone who doesn't know what "NIS/YP" is, that should be a
strong suggestion already that it is _not_ the same thing as "DNS".

(And let's not get into the issue of the term "domain" in terms like
_classless inter-domain routing_.)

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Erwan David]

Le 27/10/2023 à 18:45, John Hasler a écrit :

Erwan writes:

Here are the first lines of 'man domainname" :

That doesn't help very much with no hint as to what NIS is and that it
isn't relevant to DNS.


it is said later in the man


Don't use the command domainname to get the DNS domain name because it 
will show the NIS domain name and not the DNS domain name. Use 
dnsdomainname instead. See the warnings in section THE FQDN above



so for someone who do not know NIS it seems clear that "domainname " is 
for something else.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 12:26, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/27/23 11:43, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 11:13:59AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
192.168.71.3    coyote.home.arpa    coyote


That looks fine to me.

but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname 
file


!

So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return" 
and

wrote the flle.


!


gene@coyote:/etc$ sudo nano domainnane
[sudo] password for gene:
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)


Gene.  Please read what I'm saying.

The "domainname" command is NOT FOR DNS.  It's for NIS.

You should not be using it.

Remove the /etc/domainname file because it's just going to confuse you.
You don't need one.  You don't WANT one.  It's for NIS.  Not for DNS.
Not for hosts-file-based name resolution.


Done.


If your system's hostname is "coyote" -- i.e. if the "hostname" command
gives you "coyote" as output -- then you're already finished.

Debian reads /etc/hostname at boot time to set the hostname.  This file
(on this computer) should contain the word "coyote".

Your /etc/hosts file contains the line posted above, which maps the
hostname "coyote" to the fully qualified domain name "coyote.home.arpa".
This means your DNS domain name is "home.arpa".

If you run the "dnsdomainname" command, you should see "home.arpa" as
output.

Here's what my system's output looks like:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn
unicorn:~$ domainname
(none)
unicorn:~$ dnsdomainname
wooledge.org

And here's what yours should say:

gene@coyote:/etc$ hostname
coyote
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ dnsdomainname
home.arpa


So this is what I get now:
gene@coyote:/etc$ dnsdomainname
home.arpa
gene@coyote:/etc$ hostname
coyote.home.arpa
gene@coyote:/etc$ cat hostname
coyote
Is that correct and will it withstand a reboot?

.
The man pages, IMO, should explain the diffs here. Historically, they do 
not. Leads to a lot of my confusion.



Thanks Greg.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

Erwan writes:
> Here are the first lines of 'man domainname" :

That doesn't help very much with no hint as to what NIS is and that it
isn't relevant to DNS.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Erwan David]

Le 27/10/2023 à 18:30, gene heskett a écrit :

On 10/27/23 11:45, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 11:25:00AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
Not a systemd luver nor expert. Someone suggested that if I was 
using dotted
names, then I should edit (as sudo) /etc/hostname which I have now 
done t

add the FQDN name of coyote.home.arpa.


You should undo that.  There's no reason to switch your philosophy at
this point.

I did not say that you SHOULD use hostnames with dots in them.

I said that SOME PEOPLE use hostnames with dots in them, and that IF you
are one of those people, there's an extra step to perform.

I don't have any idea how this was so misunderstood.

.
Confusing, miss leading man pages are a lot of it. If the domainname 
command is only for NIS systems, whatever the hell that means, the 
first line of the man page should plainly state VALID FOR NIS SYSTEMS 
ONLY.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Here are the first lines of 'man domainname" :

HOSTNAME(1) 
   Linux Programmer's Manual

HOSTNAME(1)

NAME
  hostname - show or set the system's host name
  domainname - show or set the system's NIS/YP domain name

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 11:45, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 11:25:00AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

Not a systemd luver nor expert. Someone suggested that if I was using dotted
names, then I should edit (as sudo) /etc/hostname which I have now done t
add the FQDN name of coyote.home.arpa.


You should undo that.  There's no reason to switch your philosophy at
this point.

I did not say that you SHOULD use hostnames with dots in them.

I said that SOME PEOPLE use hostnames with dots in them, and that IF you
are one of those people, there's an extra step to perform.

I don't have any idea how this was so misunderstood.

.
Confusing, miss leading man pages are a lot of it. If the domainname 
command is only for NIS systems, whatever the hell that means, the first 
line of the man page should plainly state VALID FOR NIS SYSTEMS ONLY.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 11:43, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 11:13:59AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote


That looks fine to me.


but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname file


!


So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return" and
wrote the flle.


!


gene@coyote:/etc$ sudo nano domainnane
[sudo] password for gene:
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)


Gene.  Please read what I'm saying.

The "domainname" command is NOT FOR DNS.  It's for NIS.

You should not be using it.

Remove the /etc/domainname file because it's just going to confuse you.
You don't need one.  You don't WANT one.  It's for NIS.  Not for DNS.
Not for hosts-file-based name resolution.

If your system's hostname is "coyote" -- i.e. if the "hostname" command
gives you "coyote" as output -- then you're already finished.

Debian reads /etc/hostname at boot time to set the hostname.  This file
(on this computer) should contain the word "coyote".

Your /etc/hosts file contains the line posted above, which maps the
hostname "coyote" to the fully qualified domain name "coyote.home.arpa".
This means your DNS domain name is "home.arpa".

If you run the "dnsdomainname" command, you should see "home.arpa" as
output.

Here's what my system's output looks like:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn
unicorn:~$ domainname
(none)
unicorn:~$ dnsdomainname
wooledge.org

And here's what yours should say:

gene@coyote:/etc$ hostname
coyote
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ dnsdomainname
home.arpa

.
The man pages, IMO, should explain the diffs here. Historically, they do 
not. Leads to a lot of my confusion.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Define NIS please.

Network Information Service.  You've never heard of it because it's
obsolete.  You should ignore it.


-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 10:49, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 10:37:12AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

Its in there, for this machine, but on a reboot, the domainname reverts to
"none" Apparently I didn't use the approved systemd way to change it.
from a cat of /etc/hosts:
192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote


What command are you using that shows you the word "none" in its output?
Please show us the shell prompt, the command, and its complete output.

You wrote "domainname" with no spaces above.  That happens to be the name
of an NIS command, domainname(1).  Are you running that?  If so, then
the answer is "stop running domainname".  It's for NIS systems, and I
don't believe you're using NIS.

It's *completely normal* to get this result on a system that doesn't use
NIS:

Define NIS please. I've seen it before. But everybody assumes the whole 
planet knows every last 3 letter acronym on the planet.

unicorn:~$ domainname
(none)

If you were getting something *other* than this previously, then I'd
say you had a misconfiguration.  Unless you had experimented with NIS
at some point, and had never fully expunged it

Note that there is also a dnsdomainname(1) command, which is completely
different from domainname(1).  Please read the man page for it, if you
think you would like to use it.

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 10:40, Marco M. wrote:

Am 27.10.2023 um 10:37:12 Uhr schrieb gene heskett:


Its in there, for this machine, but on a reboot, the domainname
reverts to "none" Apparently I didn't use the approved systemd way to
change it. from a cat of /etc/hosts:
192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote


That is only relevant for the name resolution, not for the name your
system has.



Picky, define the differemce please.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 10:22, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 02:00:21PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Oct 27, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:

If you're using short-form hostnames like this:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn

then yeah, [/etc/hosts is] all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
(with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.



hostnamectl set-hostname is the command to do it - and will survive a reboot.


"set-hostname" is not included in the list of COMMANDS in hostnamectl(1)
on Debian 12.  The only occurrence of this string is in the OPTIONS
section:

--static, --transient, --pretty
If status is invoked (or no explicit command is given) and one of
these switches is specified, hostnamectl will print out just this
selected hostname.

If used with set-hostname, only the selected hostnames will be
updated. When more than one of these switches are specified, all
the specified hostnames will be updated.

which looks very much like "we removed this command from the COMMANDS
section but forgot to update the reference to it in OPTIONS".

What does "hostnamectl set-hostname" or "hostnamectl hostname NAME"
actually *do*?  How does its action "survive a reboot"?  Does it
modify the /etc/hostname file for you?  Or does it use some other
systemd-specific information storage mechanism?  If it's the latter,
then *where* is it, and how is a conflict between /etc/hostname and
the systemd-specific storage mechanism resolved?

More importantly, why on earth would this be recommended over editing
the /etc/hostname file, which is *much* simpler, and which appears to
be independent of the init system that's in use?

.

plus at least a 1000 Greg. That manpage is gibberish

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 10:11, Pocket wrote:



Sent from my iPad

On Oct 27, 2023, at 10:00 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater  
wrote:


On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 09:30:09AM -0400, Pocket wrote:



Sent from my iPad


On Oct 27, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:59:00AM -0400, Pocket wrote:

On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:

/etc/hosts

If you're using short-form hostnames like this:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn

then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
(with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.



hostnamectl set-hostname is the command to do it - and will survive a 
reboot.
This is I believe, the first time I've heard of this command, why the 
big secrecy in all correspondence to to date in this thread.

W/o issueing any "modify it commands:
gene@coyote:/etc$ hostnamectl
   Static hostname: coyote.home.arpa
Transient hostname: coyote
 Icon name: computer-desktop
   Chassis: desktop 
Machine ID: 7e8cfc91c7f24faa835e71ef5583898c
   Boot ID: 1c90524af6584a36b93398f51e7427fa
  Operating System: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Kernel: Linux 6.1.0-13-rt-amd64
  Architecture: x86-64
   Hardware Vendor: ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC.
Hardware Model: PRIME Z370-A II
  Firmware Version: 0801
gene@coyote:/etc$ hostname
coyote.home.arpa
gene@coyote:/etc$ dnsdomainname
home.arpa
gene@coyote:/etc$

Which is all correct. But dnsdomainname WILL return (none) after the 
next reboot.  Why, what have I not dome correctly?



Andy


 From the man page


THE FQDN

The FQDN (Fully Qualified Domain Name) of the system is the name that 
the *resolver *(3) returns for the host 
name, such as, /ursula.example.com/. It is usually the hostname followed 
by the DNS domain name (the part after the first dot). You can check the 
FQDN using *hostname --fqdn* or the domain name using *dnsdomainname*.


You cannot change the FQDN with *hostname* or *dnsdomainname*.

The recommended method of setting the FQDN is to make the hostname be an 
alias for the fully qualified name using //etc/hosts/, DNS, or NIS. For 
example, if the hostname was "ursula", one might have a line in 
//etc/hosts/ which reads


127.0.1.1 ursula.example.com ursula

Technically: The FQDN is the name *getaddrinfo 
*(3) returns for the host name 
returned by*gethostname *(2). The 
DNS domain name is the part after the first dot.


Therefore it depends on the configuration of the resolver (usually in 
//etc/host.conf/) how you can change it. Usually the hosts file is 
parsed before DNS or NIS, so it is most common to change the FQDN in 
//etc/hosts/.


If a machine has multiple network interfaces/addresses or is used in a 
mobile environment, then it may either have multiple FQDNs/domain names 
or none at all. Therefore avoid using*hostname --fqdn*, *hostname 
--domain* and *dnsdomainname*. *hostname --ip-address* is subject to the 
same limitations so it should be avoided as well.




Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 11:25:00AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> Not a systemd luver nor expert. Someone suggested that if I was using dotted
> names, then I should edit (as sudo) /etc/hostname which I have now done t
> add the FQDN name of coyote.home.arpa.

You should undo that.  There's no reason to switch your philosophy at
this point.

I did not say that you SHOULD use hostnames with dots in them.

I said that SOME PEOPLE use hostnames with dots in them, and that IF you
are one of those people, there's an extra step to perform.

I don't have any idea how this was so misunderstood.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 11:13:59AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
> 192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote

That looks fine to me.

> but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname file

!

> So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return" and
> wrote the flle.

!

> gene@coyote:/etc$ sudo nano domainnane
> [sudo] password for gene:
> gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
> (none)

Gene.  Please read what I'm saying.

The "domainname" command is NOT FOR DNS.  It's for NIS.

You should not be using it.

Remove the /etc/domainname file because it's just going to confuse you.
You don't need one.  You don't WANT one.  It's for NIS.  Not for DNS.
Not for hosts-file-based name resolution.

If your system's hostname is "coyote" -- i.e. if the "hostname" command
gives you "coyote" as output -- then you're already finished.

Debian reads /etc/hostname at boot time to set the hostname.  This file
(on this computer) should contain the word "coyote".

Your /etc/hosts file contains the line posted above, which maps the
hostname "coyote" to the fully qualified domain name "coyote.home.arpa".
This means your DNS domain name is "home.arpa".

If you run the "dnsdomainname" command, you should see "home.arpa" as
output.

Here's what my system's output looks like:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn
unicorn:~$ domainname
(none)
unicorn:~$ dnsdomainname 
wooledge.org

And here's what yours should say:

gene@coyote:/etc$ hostname
coyote
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ dnsdomainname
home.arpa

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 07:59, Pocket wrote:


On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:

On 10/27/23 07:12, gene heskett wrote:

I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed to
get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network 
since I

generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on a reboot
its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a reboot?
*What* is "all gone"?  Show us commands and their output, and then 
explain

why the output is not what you expected.


/etc/hosts

If you're using short-form hostnames like this:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn

then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
(with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.

I use the short-form hostnames, so mine is simply:

unicorn:~$ cat /etc/hostname
unicorn

Couldn't be simpler, really.


Are you referring to the domain name or FQDN?
Not a systemd luver nor expert. Someone suggested that if I was using 
dotted names, then I should edit (as sudo) /etc/hostname which I have 
now done t add the FQDN name of coyote.home.arpa. but:
gene@coyote:/etc$ sudo nano hostname (and add .home.arpa to the alias 
name it had)

[sudo] password for gene:
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ hostname
coyote
gene@coyote:/etc$

So instead of giving me static cuz I'm not doing it right, show me the 
right way!


Thank you.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:

On 10/27/23 07:12, gene heskett wrote:

I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed to
get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network since I
generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on a reboot
its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a reboot?


*What* is "all gone"?  Show us commands and their output, and then explain
why the output is not what you expected.


/etc/hosts


If you're using short-form hostnames like this:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn

then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
(with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.

I use the short-form hostnames, so mine is simply:

unicorn:~$ cat /etc/hostname
unicorn

Couldn't be simpler, really.

.

You saw my hosts entry in the last post, but again
192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote
but after a reboot, domainname returns none, and the /etc/domainname 
file has been deleted. As in not visible to an ls of /etc. hostname 
works as it should. My hosts file is all long form, dotted names with a 
trailing alias.
So I just sudo edited /etc/domainname, and entered "home.arpa\return" 
and wrote the flle.

results:

gene@coyote:/etc$ sudo nano domainnane
[sudo] password for gene:
gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ cat domainname
cat: domainname: No such file or directory
now I see the typu. sudo mv to fx the files name. but even with a 
corrected filename visible to an ls:

gene@coyote:/etc$ domainname
(none)
gene@coyote:/etc$ cat domainname
home.arpa

I'd reboot again, but that, by the time I get everything remounted and 
my system fully operational, takes me entering my pw about 20 times. 
when done I am logged into 6 other machines via an ssh -X login to each, 
and I've a sshfs file transfer link setup to each so mc can copy work 
output around.  Then I can go to work.


Why was the domainname I set and could see with a cat, deleted by a 
reboot?  Seems to be the question for the day... I sure didn't delete 
it. But it was gone after a reboot.  Seems to me there ought to be a 
PERMANENT way to do this. Now, even if the file exists, its ignored.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[mick.crane]

On 2023-10-26 09:16, Michael Kjörling wrote:
On 25 Oct 2023 21:23 -0400, from monn...@iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan 
Monnier):
If you go with the domain name home.arpa and an IPv4 subnet sliced 
out

of one of 192.168.0.0/16, 172.12.0.0/12 or 10.0.0.0/8, you can be
_almost certain_ that nothing will break because of those choices, 
now

_or_ in the future.


Aside: I realized after sending the email quoted above that I'd made a
mistake. The subnet is 172.16.0.0/12, not 172.12.0.0/12. Apologies.



100% agreement.

It's just such a shame that they chose a name which refers to "arpa" 
in

it, which is not only US-centric but even belongs to the US's war
department, which I find rather unpalatable.
I understand ARPA was closely related to the beginnings of the 
Internet,

but...  couldn't they choose something a bit more neutral?


As already mentioned, it has been backronymed. Also, "arpa." already
existed, and is well established for infrastructure names in DNS. For
example both IPv4 and IPv6 reverse DNS are served under the arpa zone;
in-addr.arpa and ip6.arpa respectively. To "choose something a bit
more neutral", assuming such a name could be found (it seems likely
that almost anything reasonable could match _some_ government agency
_somewhere_ and therefore be, to borrow your phrasing, "unpalatable"
to some) would mean having to register and maintain (or at the very
least reserve) a new TLD just for the purpose, which was the problem
from RFC 7788 that RFC 8375 aimed to solve. Certainly "local." would
have been one possibility, but that is reserved _specifically_ for
mDNS (RFC 6762) although is often incorrectly used for non-mDNS names.


If remembering correctly the RFC was use "home" for a home network
Then that was changed to use "local" and then back to "home".
Is it now "home.arpa." with the dot at the end or without?
regards
mick

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 10:37:12AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> Its in there, for this machine, but on a reboot, the domainname reverts to
> "none" Apparently I didn't use the approved systemd way to change it.
> from a cat of /etc/hosts:
> 192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote

What command are you using that shows you the word "none" in its output?
Please show us the shell prompt, the command, and its complete output.

You wrote "domainname" with no spaces above.  That happens to be the name
of an NIS command, domainname(1).  Are you running that?  If so, then
the answer is "stop running domainname".  It's for NIS systems, and I
don't believe you're using NIS.

It's *completely normal* to get this result on a system that doesn't use
NIS:

unicorn:~$ domainname
(none)

If you were getting something *other* than this previously, then I'd
say you had a misconfiguration.  Unless you had experimented with NIS
at some point, and had never fully expunged it

Note that there is also a dnsdomainname(1) command, which is completely
different from domainname(1).  Please read the man page for it, if you
think you would like to use it.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Marco M.]

Am 27.10.2023 um 10:37:12 Uhr schrieb gene heskett:

> Its in there, for this machine, but on a reboot, the domainname
> reverts to "none" Apparently I didn't use the approved systemd way to
> change it. from a cat of /etc/hosts:
> 192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote

That is only relevant for the name resolution, not for the name your
system has.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 07:29, Pocket wrote:


On 10/27/23 07:12, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/27/23 00:47, Stefan Monnier wrote:

I would have thought that techies understand its origins, and
non-techies are fairly unlikely ever to encounter it.


That's the thing: if you use `home.arpa` for your home network, suddenly
it's exposed to non-techies, like your friends and family, contrary to
things like `in-addr.arpa`.


 Stefan

I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed 
to get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network 
since I generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on 
a reboot its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a 
reboot?


Thanks.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.



/etc/hosts


Its in there, for this machine, but on a reboot, the domainname reverts 
to "none" Apparently I didn't use the approved systemd way to change it.

from a cat of /etc/hosts:
192.168.71.3coyote.home.arpacoyote


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[David Wright]

On Fri 27 Oct 2023 at 07:12:48 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> On 10/27/23 00:47, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > > I would have thought that techies understand its origins, and
> > > non-techies are fairly unlikely ever to encounter it.
> > 
> > That's the thing: if you use `home.arpa` for your home network, suddenly
> > it's exposed to non-techies, like your friends and family, contrary to
> > things like `in-addr.arpa`.

You'll have to remind me where it is that your non-techie friends and
family would see your domain name. As I start to compose this email,
the only occurrence on the screen is in the quote above, and that goes
for the other 19 virtual desktops (fvwm-parlance) as well.

It's not as if you actually need a domain name—a non-techie home
network will run perfectly well without one.

> I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed
> to get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network
> since I generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on
> a reboot its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a
> reboot?

My domain name is corp, chosen to make the next step easier.

  # grep -r '\' /etc/ |& less

will show the configured occurrences. (Run this as a user and
the & will show what missed being searched.)

Here, the files hit are: /etc/hosts, /etc/aliases, /etc/mailname,
/etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf and /etc/exim4/hubbed_hosts.
The last one is for my intra-LAN emails in the absence of any
DNS service on my router(s).

If you're setting up tunnels and things like that, there may
be more occurrences.

Then you need to check at least /var/lib in the same manner,
which may remind you to rerun some configuration scripts.
The obvious one above is   dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config
in order to rewrite /var/lib/exim4/config.autogenerated.

Changing just one machine's domain name on a network may not
make a lot of sense if other machines refer to it.

BTW I have no idea why this thread has suddenly lurched onto
hostnames (he writes, as he looks up at the Subject line).

Cheers,
David.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 02:00:21PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > > On Oct 27, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > >>> If you're using short-form hostnames like this:
> > >>> 
> > >>> unicorn:~$ hostname
> > >>> unicorn
> > >>> 
> > >>> then yeah, [/etc/hosts is] all you need.  If you're using long-form 
> > >>> hostnames
> > >>> (with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.
> > >>> 
> 
> hostnamectl set-hostname is the command to do it - and will survive a reboot.

"set-hostname" is not included in the list of COMMANDS in hostnamectl(1)
on Debian 12.  The only occurrence of this string is in the OPTIONS
section:

   --static, --transient, --pretty
   If status is invoked (or no explicit command is given) and one of
   these switches is specified, hostnamectl will print out just this
   selected hostname.

   If used with set-hostname, only the selected hostnames will be
   updated. When more than one of these switches are specified, all
   the specified hostnames will be updated.

which looks very much like "we removed this command from the COMMANDS
section but forgot to update the reference to it in OPTIONS".

What does "hostnamectl set-hostname" or "hostnamectl hostname NAME"
actually *do*?  How does its action "survive a reboot"?  Does it
modify the /etc/hostname file for you?  Or does it use some other
systemd-specific information storage mechanism?  If it's the latter,
then *where* is it, and how is a conflict between /etc/hostname and
the systemd-specific storage mechanism resolved?

More importantly, why on earth would this be recommended over editing
the /etc/hostname file, which is *much* simpler, and which appears to
be independent of the init system that's in use?

Re: Changing host name and domain name on Debian; was: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 27 Oct 2023 09:30 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):
>> If you're a long form hostname person, then your hostname should be set
>> to the FQDN of the system.
> 
> You have confused me. I started to use Debian about 4 months ago
> because I no longer want to build and update my custom built
> GNU/Linux systems, which I had been doing for 20 years. Upon moving
> to Debian I looked up how to set the host name and was instructed to
> set the host name as “host” with out any “domain” part and then set
> a FQDN in /etc/hosts. Upon further research I found out that is the
> proper what to set the host name since UNIX began.

I believe what Gene refers to when saying "long form host name" is the
fully qualified host name, which includes both the host name and the
domain name within which the host name exists. An example of a fully
qualified host name is debian.example.net, where the domain is
example.net. Note that the domain isn't necessarily exactly the last
two labels of the host name; for example, if you're using mDNS then
the domain would be "local" (fully qualified host name perhaps
"debian.local") or I might have used "debian.example" instead; and if
you work for, say, a large broadcaster in the UK, the domain might be
"bbc.co.uk" and the fully qualified host name might be
"debian.bbc.co.uk".

Running `sudo hostnamectl set-hostname hostname.example.net` will set
the host name of the system persistently to the fully qualified host
name you provide on the command line. Or you can edit /etc/hostname
directly to contain the fully qualified (or single-label) host name
you want to use.

Then edit /etc/hosts such that it also reflects the changed hostname.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

Sent from my iPadOn Oct 27, 2023, at 10:00 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 09:30:09AM -0400, Pocket wrote:Sent from my iPadOn Oct 27, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:59:00AM -0400, Pocket wrote:On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:/etc/hostsIf you're using short-form hostnames like this:unicorn:~$ hostnameunicornthen yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames(with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.hostnamectl set-hostname is the command to do it - and will survive a reboot.AndyFrom the man pageTHE FQDNThe FQDN (Fully Qualified Domain Name) of the system is the name that the resolver(3) returns for the host name, such as, ursula.example.com. It is usually the hostname followed by the DNS domain name (the part after the first dot). You can check the FQDN using hostname --fqdn or the domain name using dnsdomainname.You cannot change the FQDN with hostname or dnsdomainname.The recommended method of setting the FQDN is to make the hostname be an alias for the fully qualified name using /etc/hosts, DNS, or NIS. For example, if the hostname was "ursula", one might have a line in /etc/hosts which reads127.0.1.1 ursula.example.com ursulaTechnically: The FQDN is the name getaddrinfo(3) returns for the host name returned bygethostname(2). The DNS domain name is the part after the first dot.Therefore it depends on the configuration of the resolver (usually in /etc/host.conf) how you can change it. Usually the hosts file is parsed before DNS or NIS, so it is most common to change the FQDN in /etc/hosts.If a machine has multiple network interfaces/addresses or is used in a mobile environment, then it may either have multiple FQDNs/domain names or none at all. Therefore avoid usinghostname --fqdn, hostname --domain and dnsdomainname. hostname --ip-address is subject to the same limitations so it should be avoided as well.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 09:30:09AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> > On Oct 27, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:59:00AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> >>> On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
>  /etc/hosts
> >>> If you're using short-form hostnames like this:
> >>> 
> >>> unicorn:~$ hostname
> >>> unicorn
> >>> 
> >>> then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
> >>> (with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.
> >>> 

hostnamectl set-hostname is the command to do it - and will survive a reboot.

Andy

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 27, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:59:00AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
>>> On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
 /etc/hosts
>>> If you're using short-form hostnames like this:
>>> 
>>> unicorn:~$ hostname
>>> unicorn
>>> 
>>> then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
>>> (with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.
>>> 
>>> I use the short-form hostnames, so mine is simply:
>>> 
>>> unicorn:~$ cat /etc/hostname
>>> unicorn
>>> 
>>> Couldn't be simpler, really.
>> 
>> Are you referring to the domain name or FQDN?
> 
> Neither.  I'm referring to the hostname, as printed by the hostname(1)
> command.
> 
> There are two philosophies for how to set your hostname.  You can either
> use the short form (no dots), or the long form (dots).
> 
> I use the short form.  My hostname is simply set to "unicorn", not to
> "unicorn.wooledge.org" or anything like that.  That would be the long form.
> 
> If you're a long form hostname person, then your hostname should be set
> to the FQDN of the system.
> 
> For a setup like Gene's, where the domain name is unofficial and he
> simply hopes that nobody ever registers it, I strongly recommend using
> short form hostnames.
> 
> In BOTH cases, the entry in /etc/hosts should contain both the FQDN (real
> or otherwise), and the short form alias.  Thus:
> 
> unicorn:~$ grep unicorn /etc/hosts
> 127.0.1.1   unicorn.wooledge.orgunicorn
> 
> This is independent of which way you set the hostname.  The IP address
> could be 127.0.1.1, or it could be your LAN address, if you're using
> statically assigned IPs.
> 

You have confused me.  I started to use Debian about 4 months ago because I no 
longer want to build and update my custom built GNU/Linux systems, which I had 
been doing for 20 years.   Upon moving to Debian I looked up how to set the 
host name and was instructed to set the host name as “host” with out any 
“domain” part and then set a FQDN in /etc/hosts.  Upon further research I found 
out that is the proper what to set the host name since UNIX began.  
I had been setting the host name to FQDN and the docs I read stated that was 
incorrect.
Can you point to the docs that have information about the “long host names” as 
I have not been able to find anything on that?
Sorry about sending the reply directly to you but this iPad won’t let fix that!

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:59:00AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> > > /etc/hosts
> > If you're using short-form hostnames like this:
> > 
> > unicorn:~$ hostname
> > unicorn
> > 
> > then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
> > (with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.
> > 
> > I use the short-form hostnames, so mine is simply:
> > 
> > unicorn:~$ cat /etc/hostname
> > unicorn
> > 
> > Couldn't be simpler, really.
> 
> Are you referring to the domain name or FQDN?

Neither.  I'm referring to the hostname, as printed by the hostname(1)
command.

There are two philosophies for how to set your hostname.  You can either
use the short form (no dots), or the long form (dots).

I use the short form.  My hostname is simply set to "unicorn", not to
"unicorn.wooledge.org" or anything like that.  That would be the long form.

If you're a long form hostname person, then your hostname should be set
to the FQDN of the system.

For a setup like Gene's, where the domain name is unofficial and he
simply hopes that nobody ever registers it, I strongly recommend using
short form hostnames.

In BOTH cases, the entry in /etc/hosts should contain both the FQDN (real
or otherwise), and the short form alias.  Thus:

unicorn:~$ grep unicorn /etc/hosts
127.0.1.1   unicorn.wooledge.orgunicorn

This is independent of which way you set the hostname.  The IP address
could be 127.0.1.1, or it could be your LAN address, if you're using
statically assigned IPs.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/27/23 07:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:

On 10/27/23 07:12, gene heskett wrote:

I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed to
get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network since I
generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on a reboot
its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a reboot?

*What* is "all gone"?  Show us commands and their output, and then explain
why the output is not what you expected.


/etc/hosts

If you're using short-form hostnames like this:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn

then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
(with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.

I use the short-form hostnames, so mine is simply:

unicorn:~$ cat /etc/hostname
unicorn

Couldn't be simpler, really.


Are you referring to the domain name or FQDN?



--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 07:29:20AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> On 10/27/23 07:12, gene heskett wrote:
> > I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed to
> > get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network since I
> > generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on a reboot
> > its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a reboot?

*What* is "all gone"?  Show us commands and their output, and then explain
why the output is not what you expected.

> /etc/hosts

If you're using short-form hostnames like this:

unicorn:~$ hostname
unicorn

then yeah, that's all you need.  If you're using long-form hostnames
(with dots in them), then you also need to configure /etc/hostname.

I use the short-form hostnames, so mine is simply:

unicorn:~$ cat /etc/hostname
unicorn

Couldn't be simpler, really.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

On 10/27/23 07:12, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/27/23 00:47, Stefan Monnier wrote:

I would have thought that techies understand its origins, and
non-techies are fairly unlikely ever to encounter it.


That's the thing: if you use `home.arpa` for your home network, suddenly
it's exposed to non-techies, like your friends and family, contrary to
things like `in-addr.arpa`.


 Stefan

I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed 
to get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network 
since I generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on 
a reboot its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a 
reboot?


Thanks.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.



/etc/hosts


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/27/23 00:47, Stefan Monnier wrote:

I would have thought that techies understand its origins, and
non-techies are fairly unlikely ever to encounter it.


That's the thing: if you use `home.arpa` for your home network, suddenly
it's exposed to non-techies, like your friends and family, contrary to
things like `in-addr.arpa`.


 Stefan

I tried to change just this machine to see how its done, and managed to 
get all the right answers, which did not affect my local network since I 
generally use the alias name for an ssh or sshfs login, but on a reboot 
its all gone.  So how the heck do we do that so it survives a reboot?


Thanks.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 27 Oct 2023 00:46 -0400, from monn...@iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier):
>> I would have thought that techies understand its origins, and
>> non-techies are fairly unlikely ever to encounter it.
> 
> That's the thing: if you use `home.arpa` for your home network, suddenly
> it's exposed to non-techies, like your friends and family, contrary to
> things like `in-addr.arpa`.

If the IETF Home Networking WG's choice of domain name bothers $you
(for some value of $you), nothing prevents $you from registering a
custom domain name for private internal use and using that instead.
(Registering the domain name naturally ensures that there will be no
naming conflicts at least for the duration of the domain registration
period.)

Technically, it is of course also entirely possible to just make
something up. But making something up comes with clear risks of its
own; both risks of technical and connectivity issues, as well as risks
of confusion. It might be obvious to $you that $you's internal hosts
are *.example.net, but that's _not_ going to be obvious to others.

Using the reserved-for-purpose domain name for its intended purpose
avoids that in situations where one doesn't see the value of actually
paying for a globally unique domain name registration for the purpose.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Stefan Monnier]

> I would have thought that techies understand its origins, and
> non-techies are fairly unlikely ever to encounter it.

That's the thing: if you use `home.arpa` for your home network, suddenly
it's exposed to non-techies, like your friends and family, contrary to
things like `in-addr.arpa`.


Stefan

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[David Wright]

On Thu 26 Oct 2023 at 07:58:45 (+0800), jeremy ardley wrote:
> On 26/10/23 07:24, David Wright wrote:
> > > Or if you already have a domain, you can use a subdomain. eg. I have
> > > rail.eu.org, and at home it is depot.rail.eu.org
> > I'm not sure how that would work when my home network
> > is on a different continent from my domain's hosting.
> 
> This is no problem asides from DNS.
> 
> You will have DNS records set up for your hosted service  with public
> IP addresses. It's quite straight forward to add a subdomain and
> assign non routable IP addresses to it.
> 
> Downside is it will look odd to an observer, and will leak some info
> about your internal network.
> 
> As an alternative you can still use the same naming convention but not
> put it in the public domain. This will require you to set up your own
> internal DNS service or hosts files and have DNS queries resolved
> locally without going to the external DNS server.

I use hosts files, as my inexpensive router has no DNS facility to
parallel its DHCP service. Setting up an internal DNS would just be
extra work, another chance of inconsistency, and depend on an
individual machine always being up.

My machines send external DNS requests to the router, which is
configured to forward them to Google. Currently I still use .corp
as my domain name, and find it least confusing if anything with
"lionunicorn…" in it is an external address.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[David Wright]

On Wed 25 Oct 2023 at 22:42:07 (-0400), Stefan Monnier wrote:
> >> It's just such a shame that they chose a name which refers to "arpa"
> >> in it, which is not only US-centric but even belongs to the US's war
> >> department, which I find rather unpalatable.
> >> I understand ARPA was closely related to the beginnings of the Internet,
> >> but...  couldn't they choose something a bit more neutral?

It's hardly surprising that the TLD of the ARPA Internet's naming
system was called arpa. It kinda chose itself. And hardly surprising
that it was US-centric as the ARPA Internet was a US commission.
At the time, there was no global Internet to be neutral about: the
ARPA Internet was one of several networks in the US, let alone
in the world.

DNS was running by at least 1983 (see RFCs 882/3), and I'm looking
at an email from December 1986 sent from (I've concealed the name)
foo%lpi.s...@star.stanford.edu%stanf...@uk.ac.rl.earn via Decnet,
Arpanet and Bitnet, to Janet. I constructed a reverse address, and
all went well for a few months, until I received an email: "During
August messages were addressed to you from the Arpanet and came
through the UCL Internet Gateway. Please take action to become a
registered user of the Gateway as messages addressed to your address
shown in the header may soon be blocked and thus will not get to you.
No warning will be given." The guy at LPI had discovered he could
send through a new gateway at UCL.

Note that the backwards address "uk.ac.rl.earn" is not a DNS address
but a Janet hierarchical name. Just as .arpa is a historical hangover
from a long time ago, so is the .uk at the end of my address, which
is a hangover from Janet's TLD "uk.", as seen above.

> > It belongs to the Internet Architecture Board and is administered by
> > IANA which is why they chose it. It stands for "Address and Routing
> > Parameter Area” .
> 
> But that's a "backronym".
> It originally referred to the US agency.
> I totally understand the technical reasons why they decided to stick to
> this naming, but it's still grating.

I would have thought that techies understand its origins, and
non-techies are fairly unlikely ever to encounter it.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 26 Oct 2023 05:07 -0400, from noloa...@gmail.com (Jeffrey Walton):
> I think the real unpalatable part of DNS is, most of the operators are
> US-based:

Nothing about home.arpa requires or relies on the use of DNS, and most
residential networks are probably small enough that a non-DNS setup
(such as for example using exclusively /etc/hosts distributed among
the computers involved) is entirely manageable.

RFC 8375 section 3 specifically prohibits queries for anything under
home.arpa leaking "outside the logical boundaries of the homenet".

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 26 Oct 2023 10:33 +0200, from m...@dorfdsl.de (Marco M.):
>> Certainly "local." would have been one possibility, but that is
>> reserved _specifically_ for mDNS (RFC 6762) although is often
>> incorrectly used for non-mDNS names.
> 
> rfc6762

>From section 3 of that RFC:

> This document specifies that the DNS top-level domain ".local." is a
> special domain with special semantics, namely that any fully
> qualified name ending in ".local." is link-local, and names within
> this domain are meaningful only on the link where they originate. [...]
> 
> Any DNS query for a name ending with ".local." MUST be sent to the
> mDNS IPv4 link-local multicast address 224.0.0.251 (or its IPv6
> equivalent FF02::FB).

"Link local" is not the same thing as "site local". "Site local" seems
a reasonable approximation of the scope of home.arpa names; it's
certainly not implausible for a home network to have both wired and
wireless parts, hosts on which would belong to different link local
scopes.

(Yes, it is possible to run a VPN or other type of tunnel between two
geographically disparate sites both of which use home.arpa names in a
coordinated fashion with non-routable IP addresses, such that hosts in
one location are accessible from the other under their *.home.arpa
names. But that only requires coordination between the sites involved,
not global coordination.)

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Marco M.]

Am 26.10.2023 um 08:16:47 Uhr schrieb Michael Kjörling:

> Certainly "local." would have been one possibility, but that is
> reserved _specifically_ for mDNS (RFC 6762) although is often
> incorrectly used for non-mDNS names.

rfc6762

|Implementers MAY choose to look up such names concurrently via other
|mechanisms (e.g., Unicast DNS) and coalesce the results in some
|fashion.

Although, querying mDNS is mandatory for it and MAY means there is no
guarantee that unicast DNS is being used.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Marco M.]

Am 25.10.2023 um 21:23:41 Uhr schrieb Stefan Monnier:

> I understand ARPA was closely related to the beginnings of the
> Internet, but...  couldn't they choose something a bit more neutral?

I don't know the exact reason for that decision, but I assume they used
it because it is already there, e.g. in-addr.arpa and ip6.arpa exist
for reverse DNS.

I dunno if DARPA still uses that domain for their own stuff.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 25 Oct 2023 21:23 -0400, from monn...@iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier):
>> If you go with the domain name home.arpa and an IPv4 subnet sliced out
>> of one of 192.168.0.0/16, 172.12.0.0/12 or 10.0.0.0/8, you can be
>> _almost certain_ that nothing will break because of those choices, now
>> _or_ in the future.

Aside: I realized after sending the email quoted above that I'd made a
mistake. The subnet is 172.16.0.0/12, not 172.12.0.0/12. Apologies.


> 100% agreement.
> 
> It's just such a shame that they chose a name which refers to "arpa" in
> it, which is not only US-centric but even belongs to the US's war
> department, which I find rather unpalatable.
> I understand ARPA was closely related to the beginnings of the Internet,
> but...  couldn't they choose something a bit more neutral?

As already mentioned, it has been backronymed. Also, "arpa." already
existed, and is well established for infrastructure names in DNS. For
example both IPv4 and IPv6 reverse DNS are served under the arpa zone;
in-addr.arpa and ip6.arpa respectively. To "choose something a bit
more neutral", assuming such a name could be found (it seems likely
that almost anything reasonable could match _some_ government agency
_somewhere_ and therefore be, to borrow your phrasing, "unpalatable"
to some) would mean having to register and maintain (or at the very
least reserve) a new TLD just for the purpose, which was the problem
from RFC 7788 that RFC 8375 aimed to solve. Certainly "local." would
have been one possibility, but that is reserved _specifically_ for
mDNS (RFC 6762) although is often incorrectly used for non-mDNS names.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Stefan Monnier]

>> It's just such a shame that they chose a name which refers to "arpa"
>> in it, which is not only US-centric but even belongs to the US's war
>> department
>
> It belongs to the Internet Architecture Board and is administered by
> IANA which is why they chose it. It stands for "Address and Routing
> Parameter Area” .

But that's a "backronym".
It originally referred to the US agency.
I totally understand the technical reasons why they decided to stick to
this naming, but it's still grating.


Stefan

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[John Hasler]

Stefan writes:
> It's just such a shame that they chose a name which refers to "arpa"
> in it, which is not only US-centric but even belongs to the US's war
> department

It belongs to the Internet Architecture Board and is administered by
IANA which is why they chose it. It stands for "Address and Routing
Parameter Area” .

-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Stefan Monnier]

> If you go with the domain name home.arpa and an IPv4 subnet sliced out
> of one of 192.168.0.0/16, 172.12.0.0/12 or 10.0.0.0/8, you can be
> _almost certain_ that nothing will break because of those choices, now
> _or_ in the future.

100% agreement.

It's just such a shame that they chose a name which refers to "arpa" in
it, which is not only US-centric but even belongs to the US's war
department, which I find rather unpalatable.
I understand ARPA was closely related to the beginnings of the Internet,
but...  couldn't they choose something a bit more neutral?


Stefan

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Dan Purgert]

On Oct 26, 2023, jeremy ardley wrote:
> 
> On 26/10/23 07:24, David Wright wrote:
> > > Or if you already have a domain, you can use a subdomain. eg. I have
> > > rail.eu.org, and at home it is depot.rail.eu.org
> > I'm not sure how that would work when my home network
> > is on a different continent from my domain's hosting.
> 
> 
> This is no problem asides from DNS.
> 
> You will have DNS records set up for your hosted service  with public IP
> addresses. It's quite straight forward to add a subdomain and assign non
> routable IP addresses to it.
> 
> Downside is it will look odd to an observer, and will leak some info about
> your internal network.
> 
> As an alternative you can still use the same naming convention but not put
> it in the public domain. This will require you to set up your own internal
> DNS service or hosts files and have DNS queries resolved locally without
> going to the external DNS server.

Indeed, split-horizon DNS is quite good for this "problem".


-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[jeremy ardley]

On 26/10/23 07:24, David Wright wrote:

Or if you already have a domain, you can use a subdomain. eg. I have
rail.eu.org, and at home it is depot.rail.eu.org

I'm not sure how that would work when my home network
is on a different continent from my domain's hosting.



This is no problem asides from DNS.

You will have DNS records set up for your hosted service  with public IP 
addresses. It's quite straight forward to add a subdomain and assign non 
routable IP addresses to it.


Downside is it will look odd to an observer, and will leak some info 
about your internal network.


As an alternative you can still use the same naming convention but not 
put it in the public domain. This will require you to set up your own 
internal DNS service or hosts files and have DNS queries resolved 
locally without going to the external DNS server.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[David Wright]

On Wed 25 Oct 2023 at 08:33:25 (+0200), Erwan David wrote:
> Le 25/10/2023 à 03:47, David Wright a écrit :
> > On Mon 23 Oct 2023 at 12:06:05 (+0200), Christian Groessler wrote:
> > > On 10/23/23 07:29, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:24 AM ghe2001  wrote:
> > > > > How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 
> > > > > 3 letter abbreviations of what you call the computers, with 
> > > > > unroutable IPs, DNS'ed in /etc/hosts (with shortcuts).
> > > > Whatever you come up with for , ICANN can add to the
> > > > gTLD namespace; see .
> > > Just register a daomain and use that.
> > That costs money, and I can't see the point when there are TLDs
> > that are perfectly safe already available, like .home.arpa, and
> > before that, .{corp,home,mail}.
> > 
> Or if you already have a domain, you can use a subdomain. eg. I have
> rail.eu.org, and at home it is depot.rail.eu.org

I'm not sure how that would work when my home network
is on a different continent from my domain's hosting.

Cheers,
David.