Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Neal Gompa wrote: > It [libEI(S) support] is targeted for Plasma 6.1, with the first step > written for kwin: > https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/5412 For some definition of "written". This is still in draft state, and in particular still missing authentication and filtering, so it completely defeats the Wayland security architecture (anybody can capture all input, just as on X11), which means it will definitely not be merged in this state. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Allan via devel wrote: > You need plasma-workspace-x11 too. Note that plasma-workspace-x11 requires kwin-x11, so you do not explicitly have to install kwin-x11, only plasma-workspace-x11 (though of course it does not hurt to install kwin-x11 explicitly). plasma-workspace-x11 is the main package of the two, not kwin-x11. plasma-workspace-x11 contains the session .desktop file and the startplasma- x11 executable. kwin-x11 contains the kwin_x11 executable which is run (and hence required) by startplasma-x11. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 9:22:23 AM EDT Allan via devel wrote: > > OK, but how do I run kwin-x11 instead of -wayland? > > You need plasma-workspace-x11 too. Thanks. That did it. -- Garry T. Williams -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 6:49 AM Jonathan Wakely wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 14:55, Kevin Kofler via devel > wrote: > > > > I have just found another essential feature that is missing in Plasma > > Wayland: > > The big one for me is that Synergy and similar tools barrier and > input-leap don't work under Wayland. I don't see that mentioned at > https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Known_Significant_Issues > > My understanding is that it's now possible using libEI, but only Gnome > makes use of that. Support for KDE is tracked by > https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 but > doesn't look close to being ready. It is targeted for Plasma 6.1, with the first step written for kwin: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/5412 -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 14:55, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > I have just found another essential feature that is missing in Plasma > Wayland: The big one for me is that Synergy and similar tools barrier and input-leap don't work under Wayland. I don't see that mentioned at https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Known_Significant_Issues My understanding is that it's now possible using libEI, but only Gnome makes use of that. Support for KDE is tracked by https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 but doesn't look close to being ready. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tue, 2024-03-19 at 14:22 +0100, Allan via devel wrote: > På Tue, 19 Mar 2024 09:09:26 -0400 > "Garry T. Williams" skrev: > > On Monday, March 18, 2024 4:46:01 PM EDT Sérgio Basto wrote: > > > On Mon, 2024-03-18 at 16:17 -0400, Garry T. Williams wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 4:06:46 AM EDT Kevin Kofler via > > > > devel wrote: > > > > > Garry T. Williams wrote: > > > > > > I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use > > > > > > Wayland. > > > > > > > > > > You will not be forced to use Wayland. Stay tuned. > > > > > > > > In an effort to test a Wayland bug I reported upstream, I > > > > upgraded my laptop to f40. (I am holding off on upgrading my > > > > workstation.) My reported bug is still there, but here I am > > > > without x11. I installed kwin-x11. My login screen no longer > > > > offers to run it instead of kwin-wayland. Is there a way to > > > > run > > > > x11 on f40? (There are still several annoying bugs in Wayland > > > > that I would like to avoid.) > > > > > > "kwin-wayland replaces kwin-x11 , on upgrade" → When upgrading > > > to > > > Fedora 40 > > > > > > you may reinstall the package, it will not be obsoleted anymore. > > > > > > I don't agree with this behavior > > > > OK, but how do I run kwin-x11 instead of -wayland? > > > > You need plasma-workspace-x11 too. After reinstall kwin-x11 and plasma-workspace-x11 , in desktop display manager (for example sddm) you should have the option to login in plasma-x11 -- Sérgio M. B. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
På Tue, 19 Mar 2024 09:09:26 -0400 "Garry T. Williams" skrev: > On Monday, March 18, 2024 4:46:01 PM EDT Sérgio Basto wrote: > > On Mon, 2024-03-18 at 16:17 -0400, Garry T. Williams wrote: > > > On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 4:06:46 AM EDT Kevin Kofler via > > > devel wrote: > > > > Garry T. Williams wrote: > > > > > I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use > > > > > Wayland. > > > > > > > > You will not be forced to use Wayland. Stay tuned. > > > > > > In an effort to test a Wayland bug I reported upstream, I > > > upgraded my laptop to f40. (I am holding off on upgrading my > > > workstation.) My reported bug is still there, but here I am > > > without x11. I installed kwin-x11. My login screen no longer > > > offers to run it instead of kwin-wayland. Is there a way to run > > > x11 on f40? (There are still several annoying bugs in Wayland > > > that I would like to avoid.) > > > > "kwin-wayland replaces kwin-x11 , on upgrade" → When upgrading to > > Fedora 40 > > > > you may reinstall the package, it will not be obsoleted anymore. > > > > I don't agree with this behavior > > OK, but how do I run kwin-x11 instead of -wayland? > You need plasma-workspace-x11 too. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Monday, March 18, 2024 4:46:01 PM EDT Sérgio Basto wrote: > On Mon, 2024-03-18 at 16:17 -0400, Garry T. Williams wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 4:06:46 AM EDT Kevin Kofler via devel > > wrote: > > > Garry T. Williams wrote: > > > > I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use > > > > Wayland. > > > > > > You will not be forced to use Wayland. Stay tuned. > > > > In an effort to test a Wayland bug I reported upstream, I upgraded my > > laptop to f40. (I am holding off on upgrading my workstation.) My > > reported bug is still there, but here I am without x11. I installed > > kwin-x11. My login screen no longer offers to run it instead of > > kwin-wayland. Is there a way to run x11 on f40? (There are still > > several annoying bugs in Wayland that I would like to avoid.) > > "kwin-wayland replaces kwin-x11 , on upgrade" → When upgrading to > Fedora 40 > > you may reinstall the package, it will not be obsoleted anymore. > > I don't agree with this behavior OK, but how do I run kwin-x11 instead of -wayland? -- Garry T. Williams -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Mon, 2024-03-18 at 16:17 -0400, Garry T. Williams wrote: > On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 4:06:46 AM EDT Kevin Kofler via devel > wrote: > > Garry T. Williams wrote: > > > I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use > > > Wayland. > > > > You will not be forced to use Wayland. Stay tuned. > > In an effort to test a Wayland bug I reported upstream, I upgraded my > laptop to f40. (I am holding off on upgrading my workstation.) My > reported bug is still there, but here I am without x11. I installed > kwin-x11. My login screen no longer offers to run it instead of > kwin-wayland. Is there a way to run x11 on f40? (There are still > several annoying bugs in Wayland that I would like to avoid.) > "kwin-wayland replaces kwin-x11 , on upgrade" → When upgrading to Fedora 40 you may reinstall the package, it will not be obsoleted anymore. I don't agree with this behavior -- Sérgio M. B. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 4:06:46 AM EDT Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Garry T. Williams wrote: > > I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use Wayland. > > You will not be forced to use Wayland. Stay tuned. In an effort to test a Wayland bug I reported upstream, I upgraded my laptop to f40. (I am holding off on upgrading my workstation.) My reported bug is still there, but here I am without x11. I installed kwin-x11. My login screen no longer offers to run it instead of kwin-wayland. Is there a way to run x11 on f40? (There are still several annoying bugs in Wayland that I would like to avoid.) -- Garry T. Williams -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Neal Gompa wrote: > I know you're capable of filing requests for features on the KDE bug > tracker, so if this is something you believe you need, then you should > request it. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=481584 (In case you wonder, I set the platform to "Manjaro" because that is what my PinePhone currently runs. In the end, the distribution should not matter anyway, this is clearly an upstream Plasma issue.) Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 11:32 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Neal Gompa wrote: > > Or 3. you could go ask for the feature to be exposed, because in > > Wayland, we have more flexibility on how outputs are managed at all. > > Well, Plasma has had decades to get multiple outputs and scaling working. It > has always been a lost cause. (At least for the one configuration I care > about, which is mirrored displays stretched to display identical contents no > matter the aspect ratio, for presentations and meetings.) The introduction > of the XRandR X11 extension has been a godsend. Ever since, the one way to > get things working has always been to talk to XRandR directly over the CLI > and bypass Plasma entirely. Even fractional scaling on X11 is a non-issue if > you just let X11 do the scaling, so that neither Plasma nor the applications > even realize that their display is being scaled, let alone that it is being > fractionally scaled with a different fraction horizontally and vertically. > They just see a framebuffer of the size they want, and everything is scaled > by X11/XRandR behind their back. So it just works. (Yes, it is blurry and/or > some pixels are lost. But it does not look that bad in practice.) > Unfortunately, this is not an option in Wayland because there is no X server > that can do the scaling behind Plasma's back under Wayland. > Have you considered that perhaps the reason it wasn't possible before was *because* of the X server? I do think plenty of people would disagree with your statement about how good it looks when you warp the display like you propose, but not even bothering to ask for the feature at all guarantees that it won't exist. I know you're capable of filing requests for features on the KDE bug tracker, so if this is something you believe you need, then you should request it. If you won't even bother with that much, I don't think I or anyone else can take you seriously when it comes to your criticism of Plasma Wayland, especially since upstream KDE is oriented around it and has been for many years now. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Neal Gompa wrote: > Or 3. you could go ask for the feature to be exposed, because in > Wayland, we have more flexibility on how outputs are managed at all. Well, Plasma has had decades to get multiple outputs and scaling working. It has always been a lost cause. (At least for the one configuration I care about, which is mirrored displays stretched to display identical contents no matter the aspect ratio, for presentations and meetings.) The introduction of the XRandR X11 extension has been a godsend. Ever since, the one way to get things working has always been to talk to XRandR directly over the CLI and bypass Plasma entirely. Even fractional scaling on X11 is a non-issue if you just let X11 do the scaling, so that neither Plasma nor the applications even realize that their display is being scaled, let alone that it is being fractionally scaled with a different fraction horizontally and vertically. They just see a framebuffer of the size they want, and everything is scaled by X11/XRandR behind their back. So it just works. (Yes, it is blurry and/or some pixels are lost. But it does not look that bad in practice.) Unfortunately, this is not an option in Wayland because there is no X server that can do the scaling behind Plasma's back under Wayland. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 03:54:54PM +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > the smaller one and letterboxing the larger one as it should.) So this means > 1. Wayland will never be suitable for my notebook, and 2. one of these days > I am going to have to port Plasma Mobile to X11. Or, uh, (3) Port/add this functionality to Plasma/Wayland? (There's nothing in Wayland that precludes this from working; just nobody's bothered to implement it) - Solomon -- Solomon Peachypizza at shaftnet dot org (email) @pizza:shaftnet dot org (matrix) Dowling Park, FL speachy (libera.chat) signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 9:55 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > I have just found another essential feature that is missing in Plasma > Wayland: Under X11, I can scale outputs (at X11 level) ignoring the aspect > ratio. This is essential to unify outputs with different aspect ratios. > E.g., my notebook has a 1280×800 (8:5/16:10) display. Using xrandr --scale- > from, I can stretch this to 16:9, or even to 1024×768 4:3 which is then > stretched to 16:9 by the TV. So I see the same thing on the notebook's > built-in screen and on the TV, slightly distorted, but workable. > > Today, I tried to do this trick with my PinePhone (using the convergence > dock and HDMI output). Plasma Mobile forces Wayland on me. So I look at the > options of kscreen-doctor, which is purportedly the replacement of xrandr, > and well, that dumb thing can only apply one scale factor, not different > ones for horizontal and vertical. So I cannot get truly unified outputs, > meaning the experience completely sucks. (One or the other display ends up > truncated and impossible to work with. Also because Plasma insists on > filling the larger display and truncating the smaller one instead of filling > the smaller one and letterboxing the larger one as it should.) So this means > 1. Wayland will never be suitable for my notebook, and 2. one of these days > I am going to have to port Plasma Mobile to X11. > Or 3. you could go ask for the feature to be exposed, because in Wayland, we have more flexibility on how outputs are managed at all. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
I have just found another essential feature that is missing in Plasma Wayland: Under X11, I can scale outputs (at X11 level) ignoring the aspect ratio. This is essential to unify outputs with different aspect ratios. E.g., my notebook has a 1280×800 (8:5/16:10) display. Using xrandr --scale- from, I can stretch this to 16:9, or even to 1024×768 4:3 which is then stretched to 16:9 by the TV. So I see the same thing on the notebook's built-in screen and on the TV, slightly distorted, but workable. Today, I tried to do this trick with my PinePhone (using the convergence dock and HDMI output). Plasma Mobile forces Wayland on me. So I look at the options of kscreen-doctor, which is purportedly the replacement of xrandr, and well, that dumb thing can only apply one scale factor, not different ones for horizontal and vertical. So I cannot get truly unified outputs, meaning the experience completely sucks. (One or the other display ends up truncated and impossible to work with. Also because Plasma insists on filling the larger display and truncating the smaller one instead of filling the smaller one and letterboxing the larger one as it should.) So this means 1. Wayland will never be suitable for my notebook, and 2. one of these days I am going to have to port Plasma Mobile to X11. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 1:50 AM Kilian Hanich wrote: > > Am 10.02.24 um 09:47 schrieb Neal Gompa: > > Technically, turning off display sync completely is quite difficult > > right now since the actual driver stack in Linux underneath everything > > (both Wayland and X11) uses implicit sync right now (Linux kernel > > drivers, Mesa drivers, etc.). > > > > Interesting considering that I once read (but haven't fact check) that > the Vulkan spec explicitly requires explicit sync instead of implicit, > even if you for parts of it. > I don't know enough about Vulkan to confidently say one way or another. Especially since I'm pretty sure parts of it are one and the other. > > That said, there's a move to support explicit sync in Wayland[1], and > > the first steps of that for KWin have been written up as a merge > > request[2]. Once there's an agreed upon mechanism for explicit sync, > > it would be possible to support something like that. > > > > [1]:https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/90 > > [2]:https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/4800 > > Interesting read. I will just hope that this won't be something which > ends up in "noone actually still looks at it"-land as some things > sometimes end up in because people focused on different things and then > forgot about it (well, kind natural for volunteer projects I guess). > That's not going to happen because Direct3D 12 requires explicit sync. That's been driving the change to support it in the Linux graphics stack in the first place. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Am 10.02.24 um 09:47 schrieb Neal Gompa: Technically, turning off display sync completely is quite difficult right now since the actual driver stack in Linux underneath everything (both Wayland and X11) uses implicit sync right now (Linux kernel drivers, Mesa drivers, etc.). Interesting considering that I once read (but haven't fact check) that the Vulkan spec explicitly requires explicit sync instead of implicit, even if you for parts of it. That said, there's a move to support explicit sync in Wayland[1], and the first steps of that for KWin have been written up as a merge request[2]. Once there's an agreed upon mechanism for explicit sync, it would be possible to support something like that. [1]:https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/90 [2]:https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/4800 Interesting read. I will just hope that this won't be something which ends up in "noone actually still looks at it"-land as some things sometimes end up in because people focused on different things and then forgot about it (well, kind natural for volunteer projects I guess). Kilian Hanich -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
W dniu 9.02.2024 o 20:25, Roy Bekken pisze: I just booted Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-Rawhide-20240207.n.0.iso First impression is great but I’ll start moving(fast) the welcome center window around and the desktop randomly freezes from 30sec to 90ses. This is on a 1080 with nouveau, im not sure if its better with the proprietary drivers. NVidia 10xx is the worst option for nouveau. It is too new to have reclocking support (NVidia never released blobs/code for it for this generation). And it is too old to use new GSP based approach where you run tens of megabytes of blob and use nouveau on top of it. For 1080 the only option is proprietary driver. With all problems it generates. I had 1050 Ti. Sold it, moved to Radeon 6700 XT. Wayland works, X11 works, Cyberpunk 2077 works (both under Linux and Windows). -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Saturday, 10 February 2024 01:11:03 CET Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > By the way, what that link does not mention when it talks about "multiple > packages for the same thing" is browsers / web engines. The Spin ships > several applications using QtWebEngine, e.g., KMail, so that engine is not > going away. But in addition to one or two browsers using that, which add > little to no overhead size-wise, it still ships the duplicate application > Firefox that bundles its own, completely different web engine. See: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1920298 . (The main argument has > always been market share, which at 2% market share and steadily decreasing > does not sound relevant anymore.) Let's stay on topic. Thanks. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 9:10 PM Kilian Hanich via devel wrote: > > > > Am 09.02.24 um 18:28 schrieb Neal Gompa: > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 12:16 PM Roy Bekken wrote: > >> > >> On fredag 9. februar 2024 17:41:33 CET Neal Gompa wrote: > >>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM Roy Bekken wrote: > >>> > > > On fredag 9. februar 2024 04:04:04 CET Steve Cossette wrote: > > > I am not gonna reply to all of that because all we are doing at this > > point > > is repeating the same thing. But we are NOT stopping you from using > > x11. > > You can either build it yourself and put it on a copr (it’s not like > > neal > > is using voodoo in his copr), use the copr we provide or … > > > > > > This is extremely hostile towards new people trying linux for the very > first time, asking them to add a copr repo if they have problems with > wayland to try X11, its unlikely they ever heard this stuff before. > > > > Most likely they are trying out Fedora on a live media. > > > >>> > >>> > >>> And they're not going to get an X11 experience on live media even now. > >>> Wayland has been used for all environment modes since Fedora 36. > >> I am aware if this. So you are saying that its perfectly fine that someone > >> new > >> to linux boot into a desktop that microstutters when they move windows > >> around? > > > > No, it's not fine. Just like it's not fine to get random > > tear/corruption snow when moving things around or opening windows on > > X11. > > > > The difference is that we can actually do something about those issues > > with Plasma Wayland when people report them. *Tons* of these kinds of > > issues were fixed over the past 3 years, and Plasma 6 brings a huge > > upgrade around this stuff too. And the whole graphics pipeline is > > fully under the control of KDE Plasma, so we can do things we've never > > done before. That's why we can do VRR, HDR, VR, mixed-DPI, fractional > > scaling, and so much more. > > > > We can do things that even other Wayland desktops can't do because our > > architecture is flexible enough to do it. With Plasma X11, our necks > > are hanging to the dying albatross that is the X server and our hands > > are tied behind our backs when we want to actually do something to > > improve the experience. These are not issues with Plasma Wayland. > > > > Because Plasma Wayland... is just KDE Plasma. > > > > > > > > Quite a bit of topic from my part, but is your pipeline for Wayland > flexible enough to turn off any kind of display sync (even in windowed > mode) if the user wants that? > > Sure, it has its downside (e.g. tearing can happen), but I rather have > that than the added latency (even if very minimal) of such a sync (and > yes, that includes VRR which has a considerable smaller one than normal > V-SYNC). Technically, turning off display sync completely is quite difficult right now since the actual driver stack in Linux underneath everything (both Wayland and X11) uses implicit sync right now (Linux kernel drivers, Mesa drivers, etc.). That said, there's a move to support explicit sync in Wayland[1], and the first steps of that for KWin have been written up as a merge request[2]. Once there's an agreed upon mechanism for explicit sync, it would be possible to support something like that. [1]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/90 [2]: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/4800 -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Am 09.02.24 um 18:28 schrieb Neal Gompa: On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 12:16 PM Roy Bekken wrote: On fredag 9. februar 2024 17:41:33 CET Neal Gompa wrote: On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM Roy Bekken wrote: On fredag 9. februar 2024 04:04:04 CET Steve Cossette wrote: I am not gonna reply to all of that because all we are doing at this point is repeating the same thing. But we are NOT stopping you from using x11. You can either build it yourself and put it on a copr (it’s not like neal is using voodoo in his copr), use the copr we provide or … This is extremely hostile towards new people trying linux for the very first time, asking them to add a copr repo if they have problems with wayland to try X11, its unlikely they ever heard this stuff before. Most likely they are trying out Fedora on a live media. And they're not going to get an X11 experience on live media even now. Wayland has been used for all environment modes since Fedora 36. I am aware if this. So you are saying that its perfectly fine that someone new to linux boot into a desktop that microstutters when they move windows around? No, it's not fine. Just like it's not fine to get random tear/corruption snow when moving things around or opening windows on X11. The difference is that we can actually do something about those issues with Plasma Wayland when people report them. *Tons* of these kinds of issues were fixed over the past 3 years, and Plasma 6 brings a huge upgrade around this stuff too. And the whole graphics pipeline is fully under the control of KDE Plasma, so we can do things we've never done before. That's why we can do VRR, HDR, VR, mixed-DPI, fractional scaling, and so much more. We can do things that even other Wayland desktops can't do because our architecture is flexible enough to do it. With Plasma X11, our necks are hanging to the dying albatross that is the X server and our hands are tied behind our backs when we want to actually do something to improve the experience. These are not issues with Plasma Wayland. Because Plasma Wayland... is just KDE Plasma. Quite a bit of topic from my part, but is your pipeline for Wayland flexible enough to turn off any kind of display sync (even in windowed mode) if the user wants that? Sure, it has its downside (e.g. tearing can happen), but I rather have that than the added latency (even if very minimal) of such a sync (and yes, that includes VRR which has a considerable smaller one than normal V-SYNC). -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Neal Gompa wrote: > Because Plasma Wayland... is just KDE Plasma. But in the real world, users use applications that are not KDE or even Qt applications (or ones that use old versions of Qt that will never natively support Wayland, or old versions of other toolkits in the same situation, such as GTK 2, for that matter). Even if they use the most recent version of, say, GTK, there will always be differences in interpretation of the Wayland specifications which lead to interoperability problems (e.g., both GTK and GNOME Shell deliberately refusing to support server-side window decorations on Wayland, but also genuine interoperability bugs that can take a long time to get fixed such as this touch input bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=452967 that was finally fixed 1½ years after having been initially filed and sent back and forth between KDE and GTK bug trackers). So in the real world, there ARE interoperability problems that you just cannot argue away. What real users (will) use is NOT "just KDE Plasma". Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM Roy Bekken wrote: >> If Fedora is so great then why do I find stuff like this? >> https://github.com/Zer0CoolX/Fedora-KDE-Minimal-Install-Guide >> >> 15 Forks and 167 Stars btw > > That is not a particularly good indication of popularity. Also, it's 4 > years out of date. That is what happens when users have to rely on such self-help HOWTOs to work around distribution deficiencies. Those HOWTOs invariably tend to grow out of date. By the way, what that link does not mention when it talks about "multiple packages for the same thing" is browsers / web engines. The Spin ships several applications using QtWebEngine, e.g., KMail, so that engine is not going away. But in addition to one or two browsers using that, which add little to no overhead size-wise, it still ships the duplicate application Firefox that bundles its own, completely different web engine. See: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1920298 . (The main argument has always been market share, which at 2% market share and steadily decreasing does not sound relevant anymore.) Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 2:25 PM Roy Bekken wrote: > > On fredag 9. februar 2024 18:28:15 CET Neal Gompa wrote: > > The difference is that we can actually do something about those issues > > with Plasma Wayland when people report them. *Tons* of these kinds of > > issues were fixed over the past 3 years, and Plasma 6 brings a huge > > upgrade around this stuff too. And the whole graphics pipeline is > > fully under the control of KDE Plasma, so we can do things we've never > > done before. That's why we can do VRR, HDR, VR, mixed-DPI, fractional > > scaling, and so much more. > > > Nobody is saying that this is not awesome stuff but as of today, on some > hardware, Wayland is not a great experience. > > I just booted Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-Rawhide-20240207.n.0.iso > First impression is great but I’ll start moving(fast) the welcome center > window around and the desktop randomly freezes from 30sec to 90ses. > > This is on a 1080 with nouveau, im not sure if its better with the proprietary > drivers. > It will definitely be better with the proprietary drivers. One of the members of Fedora KDE has the same graphics card and daily drives Plasma Wayland with the proprietary drivers. GTX 16, RTX 20, RTX 30, and RTX 40 series GPUs will hopefully work much better out of the box starting with tonight's compose since we will have the new nouveau driver stack fully enabled for those cards. Sadly, that doesn't help folks with older GPUs (like my GTX 960 or your GTX 1080), but it'll still be an improvement overall. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On fredag 9. februar 2024 18:28:15 CET Neal Gompa wrote: > The difference is that we can actually do something about those issues > with Plasma Wayland when people report them. *Tons* of these kinds of > issues were fixed over the past 3 years, and Plasma 6 brings a huge > upgrade around this stuff too. And the whole graphics pipeline is > fully under the control of KDE Plasma, so we can do things we've never > done before. That's why we can do VRR, HDR, VR, mixed-DPI, fractional > scaling, and so much more. > Nobody is saying that this is not awesome stuff but as of today, on some hardware, Wayland is not a great experience. I just booted Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-Rawhide-20240207.n.0.iso First impression is great but I’ll start moving(fast) the welcome center window around and the desktop randomly freezes from 30sec to 90ses. This is on a 1080 with nouveau, im not sure if its better with the proprietary drivers. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 12:16 PM Roy Bekken wrote: > > On fredag 9. februar 2024 17:41:33 CET Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM Roy Bekken wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On fredag 9. februar 2024 04:04:04 CET Steve Cossette wrote: > > > > > > > I am not gonna reply to all of that because all we are doing at this > > > > point > > > > is repeating the same thing. But we are NOT stopping you from using > > > > x11. > > > > You can either build it yourself and put it on a copr (it’s not like > > > > neal > > > > is using voodoo in his copr), use the copr we provide or … > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is extremely hostile towards new people trying linux for the very > > > first time, asking them to add a copr repo if they have problems with > > > wayland to try X11, its unlikely they ever heard this stuff before. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most likely they are trying out Fedora on a live media. > > > > > > > > > > > > And they're not going to get an X11 experience on live media even now. > > Wayland has been used for all environment modes since Fedora 36. > I am aware if this. So you are saying that its perfectly fine that someone new > to linux boot into a desktop that microstutters when they move windows around? No, it's not fine. Just like it's not fine to get random tear/corruption snow when moving things around or opening windows on X11. The difference is that we can actually do something about those issues with Plasma Wayland when people report them. *Tons* of these kinds of issues were fixed over the past 3 years, and Plasma 6 brings a huge upgrade around this stuff too. And the whole graphics pipeline is fully under the control of KDE Plasma, so we can do things we've never done before. That's why we can do VRR, HDR, VR, mixed-DPI, fractional scaling, and so much more. We can do things that even other Wayland desktops can't do because our architecture is flexible enough to do it. With Plasma X11, our necks are hanging to the dying albatross that is the X server and our hands are tied behind our backs when we want to actually do something to improve the experience. These are not issues with Plasma Wayland. Because Plasma Wayland... is just KDE Plasma. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On fredag 9. februar 2024 17:41:33 CET Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM Roy Bekken wrote: > > > > > > > On fredag 9. februar 2024 04:04:04 CET Steve Cossette wrote: > > > > > I am not gonna reply to all of that because all we are doing at this > > > point > > > is repeating the same thing. But we are NOT stopping you from using > > > x11. > > > You can either build it yourself and put it on a copr (it’s not like > > > neal > > > is using voodoo in his copr), use the copr we provide or … > > > > > > > > > > This is extremely hostile towards new people trying linux for the very > > first time, asking them to add a copr repo if they have problems with > > wayland to try X11, its unlikely they ever heard this stuff before. > > > > > > > > Most likely they are trying out Fedora on a live media. > > > > > > > And they're not going to get an X11 experience on live media even now. > Wayland has been used for all environment modes since Fedora 36. I am aware if this. So you are saying that its perfectly fine that someone new to linux boot into a desktop that microstutters when they move windows around? > > > > > With the change proposal, fedora (as a distro) the kde sig has proposed > > > to > > > move away from packaging x11 for plasma 6, and by accepting the > > > proposal, > > > fedora (as an entity) agreed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fedora has a reputation of moving forwards, not going backwards. > > > > > > > > > > Moving so fast forward that they are leaving the users behind. > > > > > > > > If Fedora is so great then why do I find stuff like this? > > https://github.com/Zer0CoolX/Fedora-KDE-Minimal-Install-Guide > > > > > > > > 15 Forks and 167 Stars btw > > > > > > > That is not a particularly good indication of popularity. Also, it's 4 > years out of date. Just like the majority of Fedora users don’t read the devel mailing lists, the majority don’t give stars when they download from gh. Yeah its 4 years old, I don’t know what happens but im gonna take a wild guess and assume that person gave up. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM Roy Bekken wrote: > > On fredag 9. februar 2024 04:04:04 CET Steve Cossette wrote: > > I am not gonna reply to all of that because all we are doing at this point > > is repeating the same thing. But we are NOT stopping you from using x11. > > You can either build it yourself and put it on a copr (it’s not like neal > > is using voodoo in his copr), use the copr we provide or … > > > This is extremely hostile towards new people trying linux for the very > first time, asking them to add a copr repo if they have problems with wayland > to try X11, its unlikely they ever heard this stuff before. > > Most likely they are trying out Fedora on a live media. > And they're not going to get an X11 experience on live media even now. Wayland has been used for all environment modes since Fedora 36. > > With the change proposal, fedora (as a distro) the kde sig has proposed to > > move away from packaging x11 for plasma 6, and by accepting the proposal, > > fedora (as an entity) agreed. > > > > Fedora has a reputation of moving forwards, not going backwards. > > > Moving so fast forward that they are leaving the users behind. > > If Fedora is so great then why do I find stuff like this? > https://github.com/Zer0CoolX/Fedora-KDE-Minimal-Install-Guide > > 15 Forks and 167 Stars btw > That is not a particularly good indication of popularity. Also, it's 4 years out of date. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On fredag 9. februar 2024 04:04:04 CET Steve Cossette wrote: > I am not gonna reply to all of that because all we are doing at this point > is repeating the same thing. But we are NOT stopping you from using x11. > You can either build it yourself and put it on a copr (it’s not like neal > is using voodoo in his copr), use the copr we provide or … > This is extremely hostile towards new people trying linux for the very first time, asking them to add a copr repo if they have problems with wayland to try X11, its unlikely they ever heard this stuff before. Most likely they are trying out Fedora on a live media. > With the change proposal, fedora (as a distro) the kde sig has proposed to > move away from packaging x11 for plasma 6, and by accepting the proposal, > fedora (as an entity) agreed. > > Fedora has a reputation of moving forwards, not going backwards. > Moving so fast forward that they are leaving the users behind. If Fedora is so great then why do I find stuff like this? https://github.com/Zer0CoolX/Fedora-KDE-Minimal-Install-Guide 15 Forks and 167 Stars btw -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 13:21 +0100, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > On Friday, 9 February 2024 11:53:01 CET Sérgio Basto wrote: > > so you agree that are giving the overhead to us (the people who > > want > > keep X11 as it is ) > > Yes!!! OF COURSE! > > If you wanna maintain something you need to handle the overhead! Not > the other > way around! ah ok, you can give overhead to others because is not your problem, but others can't maintain X11 because gives overhead to you. -- Sérgio M. B. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Friday, 9 February 2024 11:53:01 CET Sérgio Basto wrote: > so you agree that are giving the overhead to us (the people who want > keep X11 as it is ) Yes!!! OF COURSE! If you wanna maintain something you need to handle the overhead! Not the other way around! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Friday, 9 February 2024 04:15:17 CET Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Well, then kwin-x11 will also no longer depend on kwin YE > and your argument > that it is a problem because it introduces a hard version lock will be moot. Well, there would be no argument to be "moot" because there would be no problem, would it? ;-) -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 22:04 -0500, Steve Cossette wrote: > I > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 9:51 PM Sérgio Basto > wrote: > > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 20:43 +0100, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:33 PM Sérgio Basto > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2024-02-07 at 16:03 +0100, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > > > > > We are not banning nor deleting anything. We are not > > > > > _supporting_ > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > you are removing X11 from the builds deliberately , when > > > > many people , members of Fedora on devel mailing list, express > > > > that > > > > they want have X11 , in fact we have many people that defend > > > > keep > > > > X11 . > > > > > > One thing that seems to be overlooked in many of the posts on > > > this > > > thread: > > > > > > Nobody can *force* the KDE Plasma maintainers to do *anything*, > > > just > > > like nobody can force *any* packager to do anything. > > > > nobody can force me use wayland , we volunteer maintain KDE Plasma > > X11 > > , why do you think, we want force someone to do anything ? they are > > force us do a new packages, they remove X11 without consensus, they > > can > > leave the packages alone . > > > > > Fedora a > > > volunteer-run project. We're mostly doing this "for fun" (or at > > > least, > > > some definition of "fun"). So if the KDE Plasma maintainers / the > > > KDE > > > SIG decides that they do not want to keep supporting the Plasma / > > > X11 > > > session, that is their choice. However, I am not sure whether I > > > like > > > it or not that there's an ongoing effort to add this > > > functionality > > > back with separate packages. > > > > > > For me, the only acceptable way to do this would be in a way that > > > does > > > in no way make maintaining the Plasma / Wayland packages more > > > difficult or burdensome, since the original intent of dropping > > > the > > > Plasma / X11 session was to *lower* the maintenance burden. > > > > It is a false excuse and not true, is not more difficult nor > > burdensome, we had many burdensome with the default be wayland and > > hundreds of bugs opened and never fixed with crashes only on > > wayland > > session . > > > > > Adding > > > back the Plasma / X11 session with separate packages might cause > > > additional overhead for the KDE SIG (for example, needing to > > > update > > > kwin-x11 whenever there is a kwin update). > > > > is the opposite, KDE SIG are causing additional overhead to who > > want > > use X11 and the package maintainer forcing use of wayland and why > > does > > the will of KDE SIG have to prevail? > > > > I also maintain many KDE packages and I had a overhead with wayland > > crashes > > > > > That would be the "usual" > > > way to handle this according to Fedora policies. > > > > > > > The usual is, if someone want maintain the package , they can > > maintain > > it, no one complains about an hypothetical burden > > > > > However, that would be counter to the original purpose of > > > dropping > > > the > > > functionality from the packages maintained by the KDE SIG. But > > > again, > > > nobody can *force* package maintainers to support something they > > > don't > > > want to support. > > > > They don't have support X11 , they have the work of keep the > > removal of > > X11 in their packages . > > > > Other thing that KDE SIG misses , is how testing , let says, as > > usual, > > some app crash , and we ask have you wayland session or X11 > > session, if > > you have wayland try X11 , if it runs at X11 and crash on wayland , > > this fact can help find the problem and not the opposite . > > > > also in kde-wayland you can run in x11 envoirment with env > > QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb > > > > So just thinking removing this part of the functionalities on KDE , > > IMHO is lack of knowledge of graphics and bad for Fedora. IMHO the > > future is have both technologies and not replace it > > > > > > Is very sad read that some people think in remove it and force > > people > > use an technology that they think that don't have some important > > features and issues in his opinions , is less important than false > > argumentation , that will give burden . when they are burned to who > > want use X11 > > > > > > > > > > > So in this case, I think it would be good to have > > > something like a clarification to the Updates Policy (and / or > > > other > > > policies, as necessary) for this case to resolve the > > > contradiction - > > > something like "updates for KDE Plasma packages are not required > > > to > > > be > > > coordinated with packages for the Plasma / X11 session". > > > > > > I'm also unsure how handling bug reports would best work in this > > > situation. People *will* report bugs against the wrong > > > components, > > > causing additional work for the KDE SIG. (Hell, I'm getting bug > > > reports filed against elementary / Pantheon packages, and there's > > > not > > > even a usable Pantheon
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Fabio Valentini wrote: > Nobody can *force* the KDE Plasma maintainers to do *anything*, just > like nobody can force *any* packager to do anything. That is exactly why nobody should be allowed to force plasma-workspace-x11 and kwin-x11 out of the Fedora repository. We are not forcing the KDE Plasma maintainers to do anything, we just want to maintain 2 packages that conform to all Fedora guidelines in Fedora. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > Yes. And the moment this: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/issues/139 > gets implemented we will not have to remove anything. Well, then kwin-x11 will also no longer depend on kwin and your argument that it is a problem because it introduces a hard version lock will be moot. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
I On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 9:51 PM Sérgio Basto wrote: > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 20:43 +0100, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:33 PM Sérgio Basto > > wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 2024-02-07 at 16:03 +0100, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > > > > We are not banning nor deleting anything. We are not _supporting_ > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > you are removing X11 from the builds deliberately , when > > > many people , members of Fedora on devel mailing list, express that > > > they want have X11 , in fact we have many people that defend keep > > > X11 . > > > > One thing that seems to be overlooked in many of the posts on this > > thread: > > > > Nobody can *force* the KDE Plasma maintainers to do *anything*, just > > like nobody can force *any* packager to do anything. > > nobody can force me use wayland , we volunteer maintain KDE Plasma X11 > , why do you think, we want force someone to do anything ? they are > force us do a new packages, they remove X11 without consensus, they can > leave the packages alone . > > > Fedora a > > volunteer-run project. We're mostly doing this "for fun" (or at > > least, > > some definition of "fun"). So if the KDE Plasma maintainers / the KDE > > SIG decides that they do not want to keep supporting the Plasma / X11 > > session, that is their choice. However, I am not sure whether I like > > it or not that there's an ongoing effort to add this functionality > > back with separate packages. > > > > For me, the only acceptable way to do this would be in a way that > > does > > in no way make maintaining the Plasma / Wayland packages more > > difficult or burdensome, since the original intent of dropping the > > Plasma / X11 session was to *lower* the maintenance burden. > > It is a false excuse and not true, is not more difficult nor > burdensome, we had many burdensome with the default be wayland and > hundreds of bugs opened and never fixed with crashes only on wayland > session . > > > Adding > > back the Plasma / X11 session with separate packages might cause > > additional overhead for the KDE SIG (for example, needing to update > > kwin-x11 whenever there is a kwin update). > > is the opposite, KDE SIG are causing additional overhead to who want > use X11 and the package maintainer forcing use of wayland and why does > the will of KDE SIG have to prevail? > > I also maintain many KDE packages and I had a overhead with wayland > crashes > > > That would be the "usual" > > way to handle this according to Fedora policies. > > > > The usual is, if someone want maintain the package , they can maintain > it, no one complains about an hypothetical burden > > > However, that would be counter to the original purpose of dropping > > the > > functionality from the packages maintained by the KDE SIG. But again, > > nobody can *force* package maintainers to support something they > > don't > > want to support. > > They don't have support X11 , they have the work of keep the removal of > X11 in their packages . > > Other thing that KDE SIG misses , is how testing , let says, as usual, > some app crash , and we ask have you wayland session or X11 session, if > you have wayland try X11 , if it runs at X11 and crash on wayland , > this fact can help find the problem and not the opposite . > > also in kde-wayland you can run in x11 envoirment with env > QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb > > So just thinking removing this part of the functionalities on KDE , > IMHO is lack of knowledge of graphics and bad for Fedora. IMHO the > future is have both technologies and not replace it > > > Is very sad read that some people think in remove it and force people > use an technology that they think that don't have some important > features and issues in his opinions , is less important than false > argumentation , that will give burden . when they are burned to who > want use X11 > > > > > > So in this case, I think it would be good to have > > something like a clarification to the Updates Policy (and / or other > > policies, as necessary) for this case to resolve the contradiction - > > something like "updates for KDE Plasma packages are not required to > > be > > coordinated with packages for the Plasma / X11 session". > > > > I'm also unsure how handling bug reports would best work in this > > situation. People *will* report bugs against the wrong components, > > causing additional work for the KDE SIG. (Hell, I'm getting bug > > reports filed against elementary / Pantheon packages, and there's not > > even a usable Pantheon session in Fedora yet!) > > > > Fabio > > -- > > ___ > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Fedora Code of Conduct: > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > > List Guidelines: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > > List Archives: > > >
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 20:43 +0100, Fabio Valentini wrote: > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:33 PM Sérgio Basto > wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2024-02-07 at 16:03 +0100, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > > > We are not banning nor deleting anything. We are not _supporting_ > > > it. > > > > > > you are removing X11 from the builds deliberately , when > > many people , members of Fedora on devel mailing list, express that > > they want have X11 , in fact we have many people that defend keep > > X11 . > > One thing that seems to be overlooked in many of the posts on this > thread: > > Nobody can *force* the KDE Plasma maintainers to do *anything*, just > like nobody can force *any* packager to do anything. nobody can force me use wayland , we volunteer maintain KDE Plasma X11 , why do you think, we want force someone to do anything ? they are force us do a new packages, they remove X11 without consensus, they can leave the packages alone . > Fedora a > volunteer-run project. We're mostly doing this "for fun" (or at > least, > some definition of "fun"). So if the KDE Plasma maintainers / the KDE > SIG decides that they do not want to keep supporting the Plasma / X11 > session, that is their choice. However, I am not sure whether I like > it or not that there's an ongoing effort to add this functionality > back with separate packages. > > For me, the only acceptable way to do this would be in a way that > does > in no way make maintaining the Plasma / Wayland packages more > difficult or burdensome, since the original intent of dropping the > Plasma / X11 session was to *lower* the maintenance burden. It is a false excuse and not true, is not more difficult nor burdensome, we had many burdensome with the default be wayland and hundreds of bugs opened and never fixed with crashes only on wayland session . > Adding > back the Plasma / X11 session with separate packages might cause > additional overhead for the KDE SIG (for example, needing to update > kwin-x11 whenever there is a kwin update). is the opposite, KDE SIG are causing additional overhead to who want use X11 and the package maintainer forcing use of wayland and why does the will of KDE SIG have to prevail? I also maintain many KDE packages and I had a overhead with wayland crashes > That would be the "usual" > way to handle this according to Fedora policies. > The usual is, if someone want maintain the package , they can maintain it, no one complains about an hypothetical burden > However, that would be counter to the original purpose of dropping > the > functionality from the packages maintained by the KDE SIG. But again, > nobody can *force* package maintainers to support something they > don't > want to support. They don't have support X11 , they have the work of keep the removal of X11 in their packages . Other thing that KDE SIG misses , is how testing , let says, as usual, some app crash , and we ask have you wayland session or X11 session, if you have wayland try X11 , if it runs at X11 and crash on wayland , this fact can help find the problem and not the opposite . also in kde-wayland you can run in x11 envoirment with env QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb So just thinking removing this part of the functionalities on KDE , IMHO is lack of knowledge of graphics and bad for Fedora. IMHO the future is have both technologies and not replace it Is very sad read that some people think in remove it and force people use an technology that they think that don't have some important features and issues in his opinions , is less important than false argumentation , that will give burden . when they are burned to who want use X11 > So in this case, I think it would be good to have > something like a clarification to the Updates Policy (and / or other > policies, as necessary) for this case to resolve the contradiction - > something like "updates for KDE Plasma packages are not required to > be > coordinated with packages for the Plasma / X11 session". > > I'm also unsure how handling bug reports would best work in this > situation. People *will* report bugs against the wrong components, > causing additional work for the KDE SIG. (Hell, I'm getting bug > reports filed against elementary / Pantheon packages, and there's not > even a usable Pantheon session in Fedora yet!) > > Fabio > -- > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > Do not reply to spam, report it: > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue -- Sérgio M. B. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:52PM +0100, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > One thing that seems to be overlooked in many of the posts on this thread: > > Nobody can *force* the KDE Plasma maintainers to do *anything*, just > like nobody can force *any* packager to do anything. Fedora a > volunteer-run project. We're mostly doing this "for fun" (or at least, > some definition of "fun"). So if the KDE Plasma maintainers / the KDE > SIG decides that they do not want to keep supporting the Plasma / X11 > session, that is their choice. However, I am not sure whether I like > it or not that there's an ongoing effort to add this functionality > back with separate packages. > > For me, the only acceptable way to do this would be in a way that does > in no way make maintaining the Plasma / Wayland packages more > difficult or burdensome, since the original intent of dropping the > Plasma / X11 session was to *lower* the maintenance burden. Adding > back the Plasma / X11 session with separate packages might cause > additional overhead for the KDE SIG (for example, needing to update > kwin-x11 whenever there is a kwin update). That would be the "usual" > way to handle this according to Fedora policies. > > However, that would be counter to the original purpose of dropping the > functionality from the packages maintained by the KDE SIG. But again, > nobody can *force* package maintainers to support something they don't > want to support. So in this case, I think it would be good to have > something like a clarification to the Updates Policy (and / or other > policies, as necessary) for this case to resolve the contradiction - > something like "updates for KDE Plasma packages are not required to be > coordinated with packages for the Plasma / X11 session". > > I'm also unsure how handling bug reports would best work in this > situation. People *will* report bugs against the wrong components, > causing additional work for the KDE SIG. (Hell, I'm getting bug > reports filed against elementary / Pantheon packages, and there's not > even a usable Pantheon session in Fedora yet!) Yeah. So, what advantages are there to this being in the main fedora collection of packages over just in a copr? I suppose with official packages you get bugzilla for bugs? Although copr's get discussion threads that many people use that way. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:33 PM Sérgio Basto wrote: > > On Wed, 2024-02-07 at 16:03 +0100, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > > We are not banning nor deleting anything. We are not _supporting_ it. > > > you are removing X11 from the builds deliberately , when > many people , members of Fedora on devel mailing list, express that > they want have X11 , in fact we have many people that defend keep X11 . One thing that seems to be overlooked in many of the posts on this thread: Nobody can *force* the KDE Plasma maintainers to do *anything*, just like nobody can force *any* packager to do anything. Fedora a volunteer-run project. We're mostly doing this "for fun" (or at least, some definition of "fun"). So if the KDE Plasma maintainers / the KDE SIG decides that they do not want to keep supporting the Plasma / X11 session, that is their choice. However, I am not sure whether I like it or not that there's an ongoing effort to add this functionality back with separate packages. For me, the only acceptable way to do this would be in a way that does in no way make maintaining the Plasma / Wayland packages more difficult or burdensome, since the original intent of dropping the Plasma / X11 session was to *lower* the maintenance burden. Adding back the Plasma / X11 session with separate packages might cause additional overhead for the KDE SIG (for example, needing to update kwin-x11 whenever there is a kwin update). That would be the "usual" way to handle this according to Fedora policies. However, that would be counter to the original purpose of dropping the functionality from the packages maintained by the KDE SIG. But again, nobody can *force* package maintainers to support something they don't want to support. So in this case, I think it would be good to have something like a clarification to the Updates Policy (and / or other policies, as necessary) for this case to resolve the contradiction - something like "updates for KDE Plasma packages are not required to be coordinated with packages for the Plasma / X11 session". I'm also unsure how handling bug reports would best work in this situation. People *will* report bugs against the wrong components, causing additional work for the KDE SIG. (Hell, I'm getting bug reports filed against elementary / Pantheon packages, and there's not even a usable Pantheon session in Fedora yet!) Fabio -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Thursday, 8 February 2024 20:21:19 CET Roy Bekken wrote: > You mean the proposal from kde-sig that they wanted changing to plasma 6 and > dropping X11 because they have no interest of supporting it? > Yes. Interest *and* resources. > Don’t see why that should prevent someone else from supporting it, > especially after multiple people have come forward and said they relay on > X11 to have an functional desktop. The position has been explained already. We start going in circles. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On torsdag 8. februar 2024 19:54:58 CET Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > On Thursday, 8 February 2024 12:33:29 CET Sérgio Basto wrote: > > > you are removing X11 from the builds deliberately , > > > Yes. And the moment this: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/issues/139 > gets implemented we will not have to remove anything. > > (remember that the Change Proposal was approved) > You mean the proposal from kde-sig that they wanted changing to plasma 6 and dropping X11 because they have no interest of supporting it? Don’t see why that should prevent someone else from supporting it, especially after multiple people have come forward and said they relay on X11 to have an functional desktop. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Thursday, 8 February 2024 12:33:29 CET Sérgio Basto wrote: > you are removing X11 from the builds deliberately , Yes. And the moment this: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/issues/139 gets implemented we will not have to remove anything. (remember that the Change Proposal was approved) > when > many people , members of Fedora on devel mailing list, express that > they want have X11 , in fact we have many people that defend keep X11 . > You have said this on many occasions and no matter how many times you repeat it , it doesn't mean anything different. > you set %bcond to 0 on kwin.spec [1] and plasma-workspace.spec [2] > Yes. We do. That has been explained elsewhere and , if we weren't going to build stuff on a copr , we wouldn't have that. > > you are trying discuss semantic ? > I am saying that words have meaning. > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/SemanticArgument1.png Really? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2/8/24 05:44 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: The Wayland protocol in question is this one: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/18 That said, even X11's version isn't widely supported. Typically, support for this is plumbed through linking libSM, and GTK notably does not use it. Qt does, of course. This is one of the things I've had on my radar for quite some time. macOS-style automatic relaunch of applications is slated upstream for 6.1: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-workspace/-/merge_requests/3523 Support for the Wayland protocol will come after, but the combination of the two approaches means that pretty much everything will be able to relaunch as desired in some form on restart. My approach on X11 is to have a script that launches the apps that I want, where I want them placed, and of what size I want. For example: /usr/bin/konsole --qwindowgeometry 1757x1468+2614+0 & But that doesn't work in wayland, so I wrote [0]. Steve [0] - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2239016 -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Wed, 2024-02-07 at 16:03 +0100, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote:
> We are not banning nor deleting anything. We are not _supporting_ it.
you are removing X11 from the builds deliberately , when
many people , members of Fedora on devel mailing list, express that
they want have X11 , in fact we have many people that defend keep X11 .
you set %bcond to 0 on kwin.spec [1] and plasma-workspace.spec [2]
on kwin.spec [3] you add
%if ! %{with x11}
# Obsolete kwin-x11 as we are dropping the package
Obsoletes: %{name}-x11 < %{version}-%{release}
Conflicts: %{name}-x11 < %{version}-%{release}
%endif
[1]
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kwin/blob/rawhide/f/kwin.spec#_2
[2]
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/plasma-workspace/blob/rawhide/f/plasma-workspace.spec#_2
[3]
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kwin/blob/rawhide/f/kwin.spec#_148
you are trying discuss semantic ?
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/SemanticArgument1.png
Best regards,
--
Sérgio M. B.
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Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 11:12 PM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Steve Cossette wrote: > > But to be fair as well, that doesn't exist on Windows (Windows can > > reopen the programs you are working on but it doesn't save what you were > > doing) > > And even that, it does not do automatically, it is an application feature to > request this through the registry. (Something Wayland applications could in > theory also due through XDG autostart or systemd user units, but in practice > do not do, because application developers are used from X11 to this just > working.) > > > Xorg I've been told has it, but each program has to support it. > > Of course, saving and restoring the application state requires application > support. But many desktop applications have that code already for X11 > session restore and it would probably only take a toolkit (Qt/GTK) update to > pick up a Wayland protocol for this without the application having to do > anything. (By the way, mobile or convergent applications are supposed to > have support for this because Android requires it for power management, so > there too, there is code that could likely be enabled with minimal effort, > though it would probably need application code changes to bring it out of an > Android-only code path if they do not already support this on X11.) > The Wayland protocol in question is this one: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/18 That said, even X11's version isn't widely supported. Typically, support for this is plumbed through linking libSM, and GTK notably does not use it. Qt does, of course. This is one of the things I've had on my radar for quite some time. macOS-style automatic relaunch of applications is slated upstream for 6.1: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-workspace/-/merge_requests/3523 Support for the Wayland protocol will come after, but the combination of the two approaches means that pretty much everything will be able to relaunch as desired in some form on restart. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Steve Cossette wrote: > But to be fair as well, that doesn't exist on Windows (Windows can > reopen the programs you are working on but it doesn't save what you were > doing) And even that, it does not do automatically, it is an application feature to request this through the registry. (Something Wayland applications could in theory also due through XDG autostart or systemd user units, but in practice do not do, because application developers are used from X11 to this just working.) > Xorg I've been told has it, but each program has to support it. Of course, saving and restoring the application state requires application support. But many desktop applications have that code already for X11 session restore and it would probably only take a toolkit (Qt/GTK) update to pick up a Wayland protocol for this without the application having to do anything. (By the way, mobile or convergent applications are supposed to have support for this because Android requires it for power management, so there too, there is code that could likely be enabled with minimal effort, though it would probably need application code changes to bring it out of an Android-only code path if they do not already support this on X11.) Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > We are not banning nor deleting anything. We are not _supporting_ it. You (folks) deleted the subpackages and filed a FESCo ticket requesting that they be banned from (re)entering Fedora as separately-built packages maintained by others. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: > To make it clear about this particular package: > > - we have _forgotten_ indeed to notify the maintainers on occasions. > - why did we forget? because the KDE collection is close to 400 packages > and despite our automation, we are humans and this kind of thing happens. This is OK. We all make mistakes. I just wanted to explain why I was slightly upset in that update's comments. But I worked to rectify the situation pretty quickly, and the update went out, without breaking Blogilo, soon afterwards. I do not think "bullying" (as Alessandro Astone wrote) is a fair term to describe my intervention in that update. > - to make it clear that we *bother* (using your own words), I even > submitted tickets upstream to help out on the situation: > https://invent.kde.org/pim/pimcommon/-/issues/2 Noted. > - worth mentioning that despite the kdepim libraries being released as > packages, they are *NOT* intended to be consumed externally but as a whole > KDE PIM ecosystem > - this approach worked for blogilo in the past because it was part ot the > KDE PIM ecosystem > - worth mentioning that Blogilo has been unmaintained for many years It is also worth mentioning that most kdepim updates since Blogilo has become unmaintained have not caused major issues for Blogilo. 1 or 2 recent ones were troublesome because some API cleanups in preparation for kdepim 6 were also done in the KF5-based branch (an upstream decision I would question, though I understand their approach of just porting the (maintained) applications together with the libraries rather than maintaining strict backwards compatibility in the libraries). > I personally used blogilo in the past and loved the app myself. > > However, sometimes we need to be pragmatic in life. I will quote one of > the main developers of the KDE PIM: > > " I don't understand why you still continue to release a dead apps from > long time..." Because it is still useful (though there is at least one annoying composer bug where it likes to blank the composer content at times, which I should try to track down and fix – that bug had been introduced before Blogilo had become officially unmaintained, I am not sure when exactly). > Link to the *unmaintained* blogilo (not _legacy_): https://invent.kde.org/ > unmaintained/blogilo I do not see a hard distinction between "legacy" and "unmaintained". Unmaintained applications are by definition legacy, and legacy applications are often either unmaintained or de-facto-unmaintained/semi-unmaintained (like X.Org X11). Some legacy applications are maintained, but considered legacy for other reasons (such as depending on unmaintained libraries, or implementing an obsolete technology, etc.), but that is not the typical case. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2024-02-06 8:20 a.m., Roberto Ragusa wrote: On 2/3/24 22:11, pgnd wrote: Is there a way to see what gaps remain, which ones are being worked on, and which ones will be declared "not a gap - won't fix"? I have a list of things I'm tracking. I've been reluctant to publish it because people will think that it's some kind of "general Wayland tracker" since I have no influence or impact on GNOME Wayland (which is the one most people are concerned about). a not authoritative, but informative list for KDE + Wayland 'gaps' & issues, from community, https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Known_Significant_Issues Wow, that really lowers my desire to attempt to use Wayland for KDE. first line: "Save session doesn't work under Wayland" after many other opened-for-years things I see: "Window shading not supported for Wayland windows" with no solution after 7 years. Regards. To be fair, I see alot of projects that I filled tickets for have tickets open for years, that's not uncommon. And many people want the feature that allows to save sessions, for KDE I believe we call that Session Restore, or Resuming session. But to be fair as well, that doesn't exist on Windows (Windows can reopen the programs you are working on but it doesn't save what you were doing) and MacOS "kinda" has it? But if I remember well it had it's own share of issues. Xorg I've been told has it, but each program has to support it. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2024-02-07 7:21 a.m., Peter Boy wrote: I don't really want to get involved in this discussion. I don't use KDE, I don't even use Fedora Desktop anymore. But there is one argument resp. strategy that triggers me: Am 07.02.2024 um 10:44 schrieb Michel Lind : - KDE SIG likely also want people to test Wayland, so defaulting to the X11 packages being removed makes sense here If KDE Sig wants to attract users to Wayland, then the only good strategy is to make Wayland better than the previous way (i.e. Xorg) and promote that fact actively. Then people will be motivated to switch by themselves. Simply banning or deleting something will only alienate people and they will switch in frustration to another alternative, i.e. distribution in our case. This is a simple fact that can be found in all behavioral and political sciences. Unfortunately, some Fedora maintainers seem to take their cue from the missionaries and conquistadors of the 16th and 17th centuries and try fire and sword and coercion. A bad strategy in a free world. If I remember Matthew's Fedora status report on Flock last year correctly, the download and user numbers of Fedora Desktop are/were declining. Perhaps this is another reason to think about appropriate strategies. -- Peter Boy https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pboy p...@fedoraproject.org Timezone: CET (UTC+1) / CEST (UTC+2) Fedora Server Edition Working Group member Fedora Docs team contributor and board member Java developer and enthusiast -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue Better how though? That is highly subjective... for some people (Like me), it's good right now! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Wednesday, 7 February 2024 13:21:15 CET Peter Boy wrote: > If KDE Sig wants to attract users to Wayland, then the only good strategy is > to make Wayland better than the previous way (i.e. Xorg) and promote that > fact actively. Does something make you think that we do not? > Simply banning or deleting something will only alienate people and they > will switch in frustration to another alternative, i.e. distribution in our > case. We are not banning nor deleting anything. We are not _supporting_ it. > Unfortunately, some Fedora maintainers seem to take their cue from the missionaries and conquistadors of the 16th and 17th centuries and try fire and sword and coercion. A bad strategy in a free world. This kind of comment is completely out of line. Please be considerate to others. It's a bit surprising to me that you wrote this and in the very same message mentioned "alienate people" -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Sunday, 4 February 2024 03:55:42 CET Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) > unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban > that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC > only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure > issue trackers!) you accused me of. > I will only say to everybody who is interested that you are only reading Kevin's side of the story. There's another one. > Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal That is absolutely true, I have mentioned this several times in our Matrix room. Kudos to you for that. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
> Am 07.02.2024 um 14:40 schrieb Solomon Peachy via devel > : > > you just conflated volunteer Free Software package > maintainers with literal genocidal rapists and murders. I am not arguing about the characteristics of maintainers or people and actions, but about the fundamental characteristics of *strategies*. Please read more carefully. And by the way, rape and genocide was not part of the "fire and sword" strategy to bring about a change in beliefs, values and behaviour (Christianization), but an effect of separate, additional parallel processes (economic resource takeover) - just for historical completion and correctness. More precisely, processes and strategies of the adoption of economic domination instrumentalized processes and strategies of value domination (Christianization). Your reference here to rape and genocide lacks any factual (historical and political science) basis. But this is way off-topic, sorry. On-topic is how these discussions and decisions affect Fedora distribution as a whole. And that worries me. -- Peter Boy https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pboy p...@fedoraproject.org Timezone: CET (UTC+1) / CEST (UTC+2) Fedora Server Edition Working Group member Fedora Docs team contributor and board member Java developer and enthusiast -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Friday, 2 February 2024 00:38:56 CET Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > To make it clear about the situation of that particular package: The KDE SIG > never notifies me in advance about kdepim bumps. To make it clear about this particular package: - we have _forgotten_ indeed to notify the maintainers on occasions. - why did we forget? because the KDE collection is close to 400 packages and despite our automation, we are humans and this kind of thing happens. - to make it clear that we *bother* (using your own words), I even submitted tickets upstream to help out on the situation: https://invent.kde.org/pim/ pimcommon/-/issues/2 - worth mentioning that despite the kdepim libraries being released as packages, they are *NOT* intended to be consumed externally but as a whole KDE PIM ecosystem - this approach worked for blogilo in the past because it was part ot the KDE PIM ecosystem - worth mentioning that Blogilo has been unmaintained for many years I personally used blogilo in the past and loved the app myself. However, sometimes we need to be pragmatic in life. I will quote one of the main developers of the KDE PIM: " I don't understand why you still continue to release a dead apps from long time..." Link to the *unmaintained* blogilo (not _legacy_): https://invent.kde.org/ unmaintained/blogilo -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Friday, 2 February 2024 00:49:19 CET Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > This can be solved with communication. > That is dealing with the situation your packages would cause, not solving it. ( I don't mean ill will, it just a statement) > That said, if the KDE SIG does not want to have to coordinate changes with > any third party, not even as far as just notifying us of the impending > changes (Stephen Gallagher's proposal does not even require you to wait for > me or anybody else to reply! Just to asynchronously notify me/us, i.e., drop > a single mail to kwin-x11-owner@….), Nobody wants having to coordinate with others, that makes any process more complicated and resource consuming. > then the easy way would be to just go > back to building those subpackages as part of the respective main package. That is the easy way for what you desire, not _the easy way_. > I.e., let me and/or anyone else who wants Plasma on X11 comaintain the 2 > packages and assign any X11 issues to me/them. That would probably be the > least work for everyone. > One of the main reasons of the Change Proposal was precisely to lower the maintenance. Having to filter through the tickets and assigning them to the relevant person is certainly more costly than not supporting X11 at all. > But the separate packages as I submitted them for review are the next best > solution. That is only your opinion, of course ;-) -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Wednesday, 7 February 2024 05:07:28 CET Garry T. Williams wrote: > I went to compose an E-mail message using kmail and its composer > window and noticed it was broken.[*] I couldn't even find a bug > report about this. I fear it's because many others just ignored the > various bugs and went back to using X11. Thank you for taking a proactive approach Garry! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Saturday, 3 February 2024 17:52:42 CET Adam Williamson wrote: > Why? This is the part I don't understand. Can you explain it in more > detail? Thanks. If we update plasma-workspace and kwin we are likely gonna break binary compatibility with the proposed packages. They will need to be rebuilt ala soname bump of sorts. I understand this is no different than the aforementioned soname but it is certainly not a "standard" chain of dependencies. Best regards, Marc -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 01:21:15PM +0100, Peter Boy wrote: > Unfortunately, some Fedora maintainers seem to take their cue from the > missionaries and conquistadors of the 16th and 17th centuries and try > fire and sword and coercion. A bad strategy in a free world. Congratulations, you just conflated volunteer Free Software package maintainers with literal genocidal rapists and murders. ...That is a bad strategy in _any_ world. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachypizza at shaftnet dot org (email) @pizza:shaftnet dot org (matrix) Dowling Park, FL speachy (libera.chat) signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
I don't really want to get involved in this discussion. I don't use KDE, I don't even use Fedora Desktop anymore. But there is one argument resp. strategy that triggers me: > Am 07.02.2024 um 10:44 schrieb Michel Lind : > > > - KDE SIG likely also want people to test Wayland, so defaulting to the > X11 packages being removed makes sense here If KDE Sig wants to attract users to Wayland, then the only good strategy is to make Wayland better than the previous way (i.e. Xorg) and promote that fact actively. Then people will be motivated to switch by themselves. Simply banning or deleting something will only alienate people and they will switch in frustration to another alternative, i.e. distribution in our case. This is a simple fact that can be found in all behavioral and political sciences. Unfortunately, some Fedora maintainers seem to take their cue from the missionaries and conquistadors of the 16th and 17th centuries and try fire and sword and coercion. A bad strategy in a free world. If I remember Matthew's Fedora status report on Flock last year correctly, the download and user numbers of Fedora Desktop are/were declining. Perhaps this is another reason to think about appropriate strategies. -- Peter Boy https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pboy p...@fedoraproject.org Timezone: CET (UTC+1) / CEST (UTC+2) Fedora Server Edition Working Group member Fedora Docs team contributor and board member Java developer and enthusiast -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
That’s just kmail though. I have a similar issue, but kmail is just plain broken in plasma 6 right now. On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 11:08 PM Garry T. Williams wrote: > On Tuesday, 30 January 2024 08:07:25 EST Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 12:47:44PM +, Sérgio Basto wrote: > > > Link to the FESCo ticket: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3165 > > > > > > and I'm very upset > > > > Assume best intent first of all. > > I quit trying to use Wayland a long time ago because of the various > bugs. When I saw this thread, I decided I better get ready and logged > out/in Plasma Wayland. > > OK, I can live with windows that don't remember their geometry from > last session. And I don't really have to have that last session > remembered and restored. But... > > I went to compose an E-mail message using kmail and its composer > window and noticed it was broken.[*] I couldn't even find a bug > report about this. I fear it's because many others just ignored the > various bugs and went back to using X11. > > I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use Wayland. I > understand that I am late to the party because I just ignored this for > so long. > > > _ > [*] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=480984 > > -- > Garry T. Williams > > > -- > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > Do not reply to spam, report it: > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue > -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Michel Lind wrote: > - KDE SIG wants to obsolete X11 packages on upgrade just once > - Apart from the impact of that, this is actually standard packaging > practice when subpackages are no longer offered otherwise the upgrade > will break > - If the obsolete indicates the NEVRA of the -x11 subpackage being > obsoleted, instead of floating to the current NEVRA, you can actually > re-provide the missing package without having to bump epoch That does not work if the package in F39 gets upgraded later. That said, since F39 is going to stick to Plasma 5 and F40 is going to ship only Plasma 6, something like Obsoletes: kwin-x11 < 5.90 in kwin-wayland might work. That said, I actually have a plan how to let users opt out of the Obsoletes before upgrading to F40, and that plan also depends on the Epoch: I want to create a Copr for F39 providing kwin-x11 5.x and plasma-workspace-x11 5.x packages with Epoch 1. Then the opt-in would be: 1. dnf copr enable kkofler/keep-plasma-x11-on-f40-upgrade 2. dnf upgrade 3. dnf copr disable kkofler/keep-plasma-x11-on-f40-upgrade 4. upgrade to F40 using any of the supported or unsupported methods (but DO NOT distro-sync F39 before upgrading – if you want to do that, do it in step 2 with the temporary Copr enabled). Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 12:58:27AM +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > The approved KDE change > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6 indicates the intent > > for existing Plasma X11 installs to switch to Wayland during the upgrade > > process. > > > > There's no perfect answer as some users will be happy to switch to > > Wayland, while others will not, while perhaps more will not even be aware > > of anything changing. > > > > IMHO if the KDE Sig wants the upgrade path to take users from X11 to > > Wayland automatically, then the criteria for allowing back in RPMs > > with X11 builds should include "no interference with the X11->Wayland > > upgrade path determined by the KDE Sig". > > > > The BZ ticket indicates that there was some testing to show that is not > > causing a problem with the upgrades, so it might be a non-issue, but > > setting clear expectations in this respect would be a good idea anyway. > > As I wrote (and confirmed by testing) in the BZ ticket, the packages as > submitted already do not interfere with the X11->Wayland upgrade path > determined by the KDE Sig, and I do not intend changing that. (Adding > versioned self-Obsoletes could possibly theoretically achieve that, but that > is a game I do not intend to play. The only thing I care about, which is why > I bumped that Epoch, is that the upgrade Obsoletes is applied only ONCE on > the upgrade to Fedora 40 and not on routine updates in Fedora 40 or on > upgrades from Fedora 40 to later releases, because anybody who still/again > has the -x11 packages on Fedora 40 has explicitly opted in and should not > have to opt in repeatedly.) > > While (as also stated in the BZ ticket) I disagree that it is helpful to > forcefully remove the -x11 packages on the upgrade to F40, my packages do > not and will not interfere with that process. > There seems to be a way for both sides to get what they want here (note: I am neither, but I hope this might be helpful) - KDE SIG wants to obsolete X11 packages on upgrade just once - Apart from the impact of that, this is actually standard packaging practice when subpackages are no longer offered otherwise the upgrade will break - If the obsolete indicates the NEVRA of the -x11 subpackage being obsoleted, instead of floating to the current NEVRA, you can actually re-provide the missing package without having to bump epoch - KDE SIG likely also want people to test Wayland, so defaulting to the X11 packages being removed makes sense here - *However* there are quite likely cases where Wayland does not work (yet) or could not work (without hardware replacement) for some users' use cases. These should not be given short shrift - So a workaround for such cases needs to be available - There is also concern that any issue will land on the KDE SIG's laps This might address all concerns: - Can we make the x11 packages be named explicitly as compat packages (e.g. prefixed with compat-) - Marking them as deprecated is also reasonable. This is standard practice for compat packages - KDE SIG, as part of the Change Proposal, should also document how to install these compat packages so affected users can install them - After a sufficient grace period where people get their -x11 packages removed by default on upgrade, the compat-*-x11 packages should be allowed to Provide: the old non-compat name so people who upgrade later keep their X11 experience intact - This grace period should be part of the release announcement Does this seem workable? Any feedback appreciated - I try to keep up with this thread but I might have missed some points. Best regards, -- Michel Lind (né Salim) identities: https://keyoxide.org/5dce2e7e9c3b1cffd335c1d78b229d2f7ccc04f2 signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Garry T. Williams wrote: > I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use Wayland. You will not be forced to use Wayland. Stay tuned. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tuesday, 30 January 2024 08:07:25 EST Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 12:47:44PM +, Sérgio Basto wrote: > > Link to the FESCo ticket: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3165 > > > > and I'm very upset > > Assume best intent first of all. I quit trying to use Wayland a long time ago because of the various bugs. When I saw this thread, I decided I better get ready and logged out/in Plasma Wayland. OK, I can live with windows that don't remember their geometry from last session. And I don't really have to have that last session remembered and restored. But... I went to compose an E-mail message using kmail and its composer window and noticed it was broken.[*] I couldn't even find a bug report about this. I fear it's because many others just ignored the various bugs and went back to using X11. I hope my report can be resolved before I am forced to use Wayland. I understand that I am late to the party because I just ignored this for so long. _ [*] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=480984 -- Garry T. Williams -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2/3/24 22:11, pgnd wrote: Is there a way to see what gaps remain, which ones are being worked on, and which ones will be declared "not a gap - won't fix"? I have a list of things I'm tracking. I've been reluctant to publish it because people will think that it's some kind of "general Wayland tracker" since I have no influence or impact on GNOME Wayland (which is the one most people are concerned about). a not authoritative, but informative list for KDE + Wayland 'gaps' & issues, from community, https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Known_Significant_Issues Wow, that really lowers my desire to attempt to use Wayland for KDE. first line: "Save session doesn't work under Wayland" after many other opened-for-years things I see: "Window shading not supported for Wayland windows" with no solution after 7 years. Regards. -- Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 09:56:30AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 10:33:52AM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 10:34:13AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > > > > And even before that, things were already only limping along. That was > > > > happening for over a decade and in that timeframe *nobody* has wanted > > > > to step up and work on it. Wayland is the future because otherwise we > > > > have no graphics future, as things currently stand. > > > > > > It also doesn't help that the "it's the same people working on X and > > > Wayland" argument means that, absent significant breakthroughs in > > > space-time research, we can work on one or the other, not both. > > > Something's got to give. > > > > We could also switch to a 4-day week, with 20h shifts ;) > > "if 24h in a day isn't enough, work at night" > > Uncredited because I'm not sure the person I got this from (in jest) > really wants the credit ;) Just schedule the work for Q5 (the fifth quarter). -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 10:33:52AM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 10:34:13AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > > > And even before that, things were already only limping along. That was > > > happening for over a decade and in that timeframe *nobody* has wanted > > > to step up and work on it. Wayland is the future because otherwise we > > > have no graphics future, as things currently stand. > > > > It also doesn't help that the "it's the same people working on X and > > Wayland" argument means that, absent significant breakthroughs in > > space-time research, we can work on one or the other, not both. > > Something's got to give. > > We could also switch to a 4-day week, with 20h shifts ;) "if 24h in a day isn't enough, work at night" Uncredited because I'm not sure the person I got this from (in jest) really wants the credit ;) Cheers, Peter -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Sun, Feb 04, 2024 at 03:55:42AM +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are > offended by the tone of my messages. Kevin, thank you for the way you're participating in this thread. Your civil tone and patience and writing about facts more than opinions is appreciated. This difficult discussion could have been much more difficult otherwise. Zbyszek -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 10:34:13AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > > And even before that, things were already only limping along. That was > > happening for over a decade and in that timeframe *nobody* has wanted > > to step up and work on it. Wayland is the future because otherwise we > > have no graphics future, as things currently stand. > > It also doesn't help that the "it's the same people working on X and > Wayland" argument means that, absent significant breakthroughs in > space-time research, we can work on one or the other, not both. > Something's got to give. We could also switch to a 4-day week, with 20h shifts ;) Zbyszek -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Tom Seewald wrote: > You were implying that Kevin was claiming to be an "unbiased observer" and > that him being banned from the KDE SIG means he has ulterior motives for > this beyond simply maintaining Plasma X11 packages. To make this clear, my motivation for maintaining Plasma X11 packages is very simple: I use Plasma on X11 daily and do not want to be forced to use Wayland. Oh, and I have also publicly promised [https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/5] I would submit those packages for review, and I tend to keep my promises. There is nothing more to it. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Naheem Zaffar wrote: > Wouldn't it be better to create a new totally different named SIG? > > Since bug reporting and crossover of people assuming it is official fedora > plasma are the concerns, a totally independent named SIG and an > independently named desktop should be considered serious options as that > way the extra work can be avoided for the current KDE SIG. > > That way you can even have a desktop with a different name so people will > not think to file bug reports with plasma etc., avoiding problems with > overloading the SIG with work. What I am packaging is still called KDE Plasma upstream, so calling it something completely different would be really confusing to the users and also fail to attribute upstream KDE Plasma for their work. (Keep in mind that upstream KDE is NOT dropping X11 support from Plasma/KWin.) Also, as explained here: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3165#comment-894020 I do not think making the packages completely independent of the Plasma packages (as calling it something completely different would likely imply) would be a good idea from a technical standpoint. If we want us Plasma on X11 maintainers to become a formal SIG, it will have to be named something like "KDE X11 SIG" or "Plasma X11 SIG" or some combination thereof. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 11:08:15AM +, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 10:47 AM Peter Hutterer > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Feb 01, 2024 at 03:40:24PM +, Sérgio Basto wrote: > > > On Thu, 2024-02-01 at 15:31 +0100, Leon Fauster via devel wrote: > > > > Am 01.02.24 um 14:18 schrieb Sérgio Basto: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is not KDE SIG not support X11, the problem is KDE SIG > > > > > want > > > > > drop X11 and force user to use wayland . > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking from the side I wonder If its the SIG or more the > > > > circumstances > > > > that everything is in a forward flow and the SIG is facing it. So, if > > > > the best time was not two or one year ago, and obviously also not > > > > now. > > > > When then? The fact is that there must be a point in time when the > > > > display server takes an evolution step forward. > > > > > > > > Pressure in such transition helps to get forward, so I understand the > > > > SIGs POV. Albeit, from the practical POV there are some issue and > > > > therefore X11 is still the place to be. > > > > > > > > Maybe some elaboration should be done about the current state of X11 > > > > vs > > > > Wayland (is it just nvidia?) and a timeframe calculation to have a > > > > resolution. Maybe it won't look so bad then and a interim solution is > > > > then more acceptable. > > > > > > > > > I have an obvious answer is when the authors decide, in this case Xorg, > > > when Xorg decides that it will stop supporting X11, like happened to > > > Python2 or PHP5 and 7 or Gnome > > > > X.org (the ppl doing X development) doesn't work that way, there won't > > be an official "we're no longer supporting this". More likely > > development will languish (except for Xwayland) and actual Xorg releases > > will be few and far in between, at unpredictable cadence and subject to > > someone wanting to do it. > > > > The last Xorg release (21.0) from the master branch was in Oct 2021. The > > only reason that one happened was because Povilas (who wanted a new > > feature in X) stepped up and did the work of collecting the MRs and > > doing the release maintainership. Every 21.x release since has been > > backports and, especially more recently, a huge percentage are CVE fixes. > > > > Fedora still ships the previous release, server 1.20.x, which was > > originally released from git master in 2018, the 1.20.14 version we're > > on (excluding fixes and CVEs) is from Dec 2021. > > > > Xwayland on the other hand (which lives in the same git repo) continues > > on its merry way with the 23.2 series branched as recently as last > > August. But an Xwayland release does not include Xorg because, well, > > there is little motivation to do more Xorg releases. > > > > When it comes down to it it "just" needs someone (trustworthy enough) to > > step up and do them. Whether the releases get picked up immediately like in > > the olden days is a different matter. But I doubt there'll be an X.org > > statement of "we no longer support Xorg" anytime soon, even though that > > is, to some extent functionally already true. > > > > And even before that, things were already only limping along. That was > happening for over a decade and in that timeframe *nobody* has wanted > to step up and work on it. Wayland is the future because otherwise we > have no graphics future, as things currently stand. It also doesn't help that the "it's the same people working on X and Wayland" argument means that, absent significant breakthroughs in space-time research, we can work on one or the other, not both. Something's got to give. Cheers, Peter > > This is why *every* graphical environment is *finally* working on > their Wayland environments if they have any development resources at > all. Last year, we had Cinnamon release its own experimental Wayland > session with v6.0. Budgie is working on replacing X11 with Wayland > this year. LXQt will be on Wayland with v2. Xfce is working on the > same for v4.20. MATE is looking at Wayfire after previously looking at > Mirco for Wayland. Pantheon has been working on it for over a year now > and has an experimental session. > > Everyone is making a path to Wayland a priority because finally enough > is done so that they can. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 9:04 PM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote: > > the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out > > flippantly. > > That is what they want you to believe. Sure, this used to be the case, a few > years ago. > “Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.” - JMS I am uninterested in your side, nor their side, and I do not believe anyone has the full truth to share. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024, 23:16 Sérgio Basto, wrote: > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 03:55 +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Neal Gompa wrote: > > > It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to > > > someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm > > > disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin. > > > > I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in > > the > > particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In > > particular, > > I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind > > that > > he (like me) is not a native English speaker. > > > > I haven't time to read all messages on this thread > > My conclusion is, we have false arguments , that Xorg is old, that is > not maintained, that will give more work , even we got some lies on > some arguments and when we disassemble these arguments, they came up > with new ones, now is the tone . I know would be very fancy only have > wayland , modern etc etc . But the true is they have the work of > remove X11 and not the opposite. > > Other thought it is obvious that KDE 6 will be a disaster, I remember > Kevin step up from leader of KDE SIG, after move from KDE 3 for 4 or 4 > for 5 because the work was too much and we need have a life. > > And the problem here is, we haven't an agreement , since the first day > of proposal many people said that was not acceptable and there opinions > were ignored and the proposal haven't changed one bit. > > I think, I and Kevin so be added to the KDE SIG , please add me at > least (here is the request) . Wouldn't it be better to create a new totally different named SIG? Since bug reporting and crossover of people assuming it is official fedora plasma are the concerns, a totally independent named SIG and an independently named desktop should be considered serious options as that way the extra work can be avoided for the current KDE SIG. That way you can even have a desktop with a different name so people will not think to file bug reports with plasma etc., avoiding problems with overloading the SIG with work. > > I think is stupid and a waste of energy, IMO, do a kwin-x11 and plasma > -x11 , like I said KDE SIG had the work of remove X11 from the builds, > to enable kwin-x11 on Fedora Rawhide is just set %bcond to 1 on > kwin.spec [1] and plasma-workspace.spec [2], so I think that should be > enable. > Another way is build the entire package with X11 and conflict with the > original because will give us less work and we will have less doubts or > user use packages from KDE SIG or user use packages from KDE-X11 SIG > and can't use both. Like happens with ffmpeg where also Neal haven't > reach to an agreement with members of RPMFusion , so now we have ffmpeg > from RPMFUSion with one freeworld sub-package and we have fffmpeg-free > from Fedora and ffmpeg(s) conflicts each other . > > It never happened to me such thing , except recently and all cases with > Neal directly involved, so I see Neal as the problem, was ImageMagick , > was ffmpeg, was LSB , now KDE and one honest advice for Neal who > appears everywhere, try to do fewer things but be more focused > > > [1] > https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kwin/blob/rawhide/f/kwin.spec#_2 > > [2] > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/plasma-workspace/blob/rawhide/f/plasma-workspace.spec#_2 > > > > > > I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you > > are > > offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the > > content > > that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you > > why the > > content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts? > > > > > Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, > > > and > > > the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted. > > > > We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) > > unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, > > a ban > > that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on > > IRC > > only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your > > Pagure > > issue trackers!) you accused me of. > > > > Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What > > I > > disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from > > the > > Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your > > Change > > Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change > > that > > Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to > > package > > it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or > > at > > least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it: > > > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/11 > > Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly > > because > > you did not believe at the
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 03:55 +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Neal Gompa wrote: > > It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to > > someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm > > disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin. > > I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in > the > particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In > particular, > I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind > that > he (like me) is not a native English speaker. > I haven't time to read all messages on this thread My conclusion is, we have false arguments , that Xorg is old, that is not maintained, that will give more work , even we got some lies on some arguments and when we disassemble these arguments, they came up with new ones, now is the tone . I know would be very fancy only have wayland , modern etc etc . But the true is they have the work of remove X11 and not the opposite. Other thought it is obvious that KDE 6 will be a disaster, I remember Kevin step up from leader of KDE SIG, after move from KDE 3 for 4 or 4 for 5 because the work was too much and we need have a life. And the problem here is, we haven't an agreement , since the first day of proposal many people said that was not acceptable and there opinions were ignored and the proposal haven't changed one bit. I think, I and Kevin so be added to the KDE SIG , please add me at least (here is the request) . I think is stupid and a waste of energy, IMO, do a kwin-x11 and plasma -x11 , like I said KDE SIG had the work of remove X11 from the builds, to enable kwin-x11 on Fedora Rawhide is just set %bcond to 1 on kwin.spec [1] and plasma-workspace.spec [2], so I think that should be enable. Another way is build the entire package with X11 and conflict with the original because will give us less work and we will have less doubts or user use packages from KDE SIG or user use packages from KDE-X11 SIG and can't use both. Like happens with ffmpeg where also Neal haven't reach to an agreement with members of RPMFusion , so now we have ffmpeg from RPMFUSion with one freeworld sub-package and we have fffmpeg-free from Fedora and ffmpeg(s) conflicts each other . It never happened to me such thing , except recently and all cases with Neal directly involved, so I see Neal as the problem, was ImageMagick , was ffmpeg, was LSB , now KDE and one honest advice for Neal who appears everywhere, try to do fewer things but be more focused [1] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kwin/blob/rawhide/f/kwin.spec#_2 [2] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/plasma-workspace/blob/rawhide/f/plasma-workspace.spec#_2 > I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you > are > offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the > content > that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you > why the > content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts? > > > Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, > > and > > the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted. > > We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) > unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, > a ban > that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on > IRC > only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your > Pagure > issue trackers!) you accused me of. > > Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What > I > disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from > the > Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your > Change > Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change > that > Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to > package > it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or > at > least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it: > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/11 > Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly > because > you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting > those > packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about > removing > X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I > promise > something, I tend to deliver on it. > > > What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the > > Fedora > > Foundations, First and Features. > > I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major > feature > that users rely on align with "Features"? > > I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11 > despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the > "Freedom" and > "Friends" principles. > > > And for the first time in a long time, Fedora
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Steve Cossette wrote: >> There's also a secondary thing that I feel hasn't been discussed here >> though: I know work is being done right now to isolate the x11 >> components of plasma and add build-time options to strip out those >> components. What happens when we (as-in, the KDE sig) split off those >> components and now you got 10-15+ x11 packages people gotta install to >> make it all work? > > Then we will submit 10-15+ *-x11 packages for review. It can be done. PPS: I am fairly sure that, if such a state is ever reached, the KDE SIG will no longer be willing to maintain the kde6-x11-unsupported Copr. (Among other things, your statement quoted above pretty clearly implies that.) So that relativates the claim that my packages are unnecessary because people can just use that Copr. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
> I'm fairly certain you should be > saying this to Kevin. I'm fairly certain it applies to everyone involved. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
You were implying that Kevin was claiming to be an "unbiased observer" and that him being banned from the KDE SIG means he has ulterior motives for this beyond simply maintaining Plasma X11 packages. Call it what you want, but it doesn't make for a constructive discussion. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
PS: Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > The atmosphere on #fedora-kde IRC radically changed on 2020-07-13. I also think that that date was not a coincidence, because shortly after that date, the KDE SIG went through with such changes as: * Wayland by default for Plasma, * a push for KDE applications as Fedora Flatpaks, * creation of Kinoite, * systemd user sessions by default, etc., which would have been met by criticism and opposition from me and others. The moderation crackdown was successful at silencing that criticism. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2/4/24 14:16, Tom Seewald wrote: On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel Jumping to an accusation of bad faith, rather than addressing anything that Kevin wrote, doesn't make for a productive discussion. I'm fairly certain you should be saying this to Kevin. -- ___ devel mailing list --devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email todevel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct:https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines:https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it:https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue-- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote: > the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out > flippantly. That is what they want you to believe. Sure, this used to be the case, a few years ago. The atmosphere on #fedora-kde IRC radically changed on 2020-07-13. Until then, it was possible on that chan(nel) to discuss things only partially on topic, such as packaging issues with packages in Fedora that may affect KDE Plasma users but are not part of the KDE SIG's offering, hardware makers' support or non-support of GNU/Linux, etc. On that day (at least in the few hours before I was kicked out of the chan), suddenly, everyone (not just me!) attempting to discuss something like this was immediately greeted with an "off-topic warning". But what the KDE SIG resents the most is criticism. You can see that in this thread, too. So what happened is that they took offense at the *tone* of the criticism (something they are attempting here too: Neal Gompa wrote: > Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you > [= Sérgio] and Kevin. ) because that is a much more socially acceptable way to silence criticism than to do it based on its content. What they ended up holding against me was my puns that "name-called" companies and software projects, such as "NoVideo" instead of "NVidia" and some admittedly more vulgar ones. It shall be noted that I tried really hard to not "name-call" people that way, only companies or projects like Firefox. This was claimed to be a violation of the Fedora Code of Conduct even though that was at that time not stated anywhere in the letter of the CoC: https://web.archive.org/web/20200803212051/https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ (The current Fedora CoC is much longer: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ and now also bans, among many other things, "personal campaigns against other organizations or individuals", explicitly covering "organizations". That wording did not exist in 2020.) So what happened on that day is that the KDE SIG instantly decided to ban me along with the general moderation crackdown, without even giving me a chance to adapt to the new strict moderation. (They only gave me the "choice" to leave "voluntarily", which I obviously refused.) They claimed that those had always been the rules (which was clearly not the case, the moderation before and on/after 2020-07-13 was completely different) and that I had been warned often enough (but those "warnings" never drew any sanctions with them before 2020-07-13, neither for me nor for anybody else who was "warned"). And when I tried to appeal the unfair ban to the Fedora Council, the KDE SIG demanded "Acknowledgement that your past behaviour was unacceptable" as a precondition to be unbanned, which I consider particularly unfair and unacceptable because it demands that I plead guilty to a wrongdoing that I do not agree having ever committed. The Council also marked the ticket private against my wishes in an effort to prevent the public from reading about the unfair banning practices in parts of Fedora. So now, 3½ years later, I am still banned, because the KDE SIG is unwilling to give its old grudges of the distant past an expiry date. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On February 4, 2024 2:16:55 PM CST, Tom Seewald wrote: >> On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel >> > >> Wait, you're banned from all the KDE channels in Fedora? I have no idea what >> led to >> that, though the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind >> of bans out >> flippantly. But regardless, that calls into question your position as an >> unbiased >> observer. > >Jumping to an accusation of bad faith, rather than addressing anything that >Kevin wrote, doesn't make for a productive discussion. No. I explicitly did not accuse him of bad faith. I am pointing out that being banned from the Fedora KDE effort puts him in a weird place, to now try to save the day. It's a conflict of interest. >-- >___ >devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org >Fedora Code of Conduct: >https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >List Archives: >https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >Do not reply to spam, report it: >https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
> On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel > > Wait, you're banned from all the KDE channels in Fedora? I have no idea what > led to > that, though the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of > bans out > flippantly. But regardless, that calls into question your position as an > unbiased > observer. Jumping to an accusation of bad faith, rather than addressing anything that Kevin wrote, doesn't make for a productive discussion. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: >Neal Gompa wrote: >> It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to >> someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm >> disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin. > >I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in the >particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In particular, >I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind that >he (like me) is not a native English speaker. > >I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are >offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the content >that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you why the >content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts? > >> Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and >> the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted. > >We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) >unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban >that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC >only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure >issue trackers!) you accused me of. Wait, you're banned from all the KDE channels in Fedora? I have no idea what led to that, though the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out flippantly. But regardless, that calls into question your position as an unbiased observer. > >Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What I >disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from the >Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your Change >Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change that >Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to package >it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or at >least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it: >https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/11 >Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly because >you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting those >packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about removing >X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I promise >something, I tend to deliver on it. > >> What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora >> Foundations, First and Features. > >I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major feature >that users rely on align with "Features"? > >I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11 >despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the "Freedom" and >"Friends" principles. > >> And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated >> significant buzz in the community and media. > >Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the >reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people >are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions >as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had >already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages >should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered researching). >Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!", but I >really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use X11. >There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great. > >> I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well >> as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :) > >And nobody is taking that away. > >Kevin Kofler >-- >___ >devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org >Fedora Code of Conduct: >https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >List Archives: >https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >Do not reply to spam, report it: >https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the > reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people > are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions > as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had > already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages > should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered > researching). Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to > X11!", but I really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them > to use X11. There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great. > F39 is the only release that with Wayland the desktop haven't soft locked and turned gray seconds after login, so thats a huge improvement. I never been able to even test Wayland before F39. Lets try something basic like opening Kmail and read mails https://imgur.com/a/ZHYNqjq Maybe this “just works” in plasma6, but if it don’t and there is no easy way to change to X11, obviously people will choose the path of least resistance. I don’t even think people will know its because of Wayland and blame it on KDE instead. -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Then we will submit 10-15+ *-x11 packages for review. It can be done. PS: Users will only have to install plasma-workspace-x11. If there is some optional library that needs an ld.so.conf.d override or a plugin to support X11, it can be conditionally dragged in with a boolean dependency in plasma-workspace-x11: Requires: (kf6-foo-x11 if kf6-foo) Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Steve Cossette wrote: > There's also a secondary thing that I feel hasn't been discussed here > though: I know work is being done right now to isolate the x11 > components of plasma and add build-time options to strip out those > components. What happens when we (as-in, the KDE sig) split off those > components and now you got 10-15+ x11 packages people gotta install to > make it all work? Then we will submit 10-15+ *-x11 packages for review. It can be done. Thanks to ld.so.conf.d, it is even possible to override libraries with versions built with X11 support if it becomes necessary to rebuild, not just add, some libraries. I have experience with that (see the now defunct freetype-freeworld, only defunct because the patents either expired or were declared to be covered by the OIN and the functionality is now part of the normal freetype package). There are also packages in Fedora proper making use of that linker feature, e.g., it is (or at least used to be) used by CPU-optimized BLAS libraries. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Neal Gompa wrote: > It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to > someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm > disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin. I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in the particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In particular, I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind that he (like me) is not a native English speaker. I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the content that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you why the content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts? > Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and > the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted. We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure issue trackers!) you accused me of. Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What I disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from the Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your Change Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change that Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to package it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or at least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/11 Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly because you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting those packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about removing X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I promise something, I tend to deliver on it. > What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora > Foundations, First and Features. I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major feature that users rely on align with "Features"? I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11 despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the "Freedom" and "Friends" principles. > And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated > significant buzz in the community and media. Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered researching). Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!", but I really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use X11. There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great. > I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well > as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :) And nobody is taking that away. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
(Not involved in any way here so feel free to ignore most of what I'm saying) Marc Deop i Argemí wrote on Sat, Feb 03, 2024 at 03:16:47PM +0100: > - If a user decided to install the X11 package and has an issue: who do you > think they are going to reach? who is gonna get the "bad publicity" for the > issue? ( specially when we are forced to tell them we don't support X11...) I don't really understand this one -- why would they reach for the KDE SIG specifically? What does "support" even mean in this context? As a fedora user (not even using KDE), I don't care about SIGs, if I have a problem I'll just open a bz against the package that gives me trouble. Now I'm sure some tickets will be open against KDE without specifying they're using the X11 packages, but at least semi-automated bugs will have a package list so it shouldn't be _that_ much trouble to just reassign the bug to the x11 package if required (especially since x11 is no longer selected by default and requires manual intervention to use, I'd expect most users who care enough to report a bug to be aware of the difference) At this point it's no longer KDE SIG's problem -- it's whoever is maintaining the package's role to follow up on that bz. I haven't seen Kevin or anyone else say they'd just close the bugs as "not my problem" -- x11 is still supported upstream so I'd expect they'd at least forward the bug there, if they don't look into it themselves directly. Also if you're concerend about the "publicity", for users who cannot run on wayland yet for whatever reason (hardware, buggy drivers...) having the possibility to use x11 at all is still going to be much better PR than "nope sorry we don't want to spend time on X11 just suffer through the wayland bugs" which is exactly how this will sound to them (yes I can understand the reasons that were given up for this and rationalize this a bit better, but this isn't how it'll look for someone with problems) Long story short, I agree with the "if someone wants to do it let them do" stance. I can't speak about your second point (delaying upgrades), but from what I've read of this thread it doesn't seem like there'd be a huge delay if some minimal communication is in place, and the suggesstion of having a KDE X11 sig to ensure it's not just a single person also makes sense (although if it's a single package just having multiple maintainers to it sounds enough to me) -- Dominique Martinet | Asmadeus -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2024-02-03 06:16, Marc Deop i Argemí wrote: - As the packages stand right now, the KDE general updates will have to wait for the proposed packages to be updated by their maintainers or we will have to do the updates ourselves (which defeats completely the point of our change proposal). Why? This is the part I don't understand. Can you explain it in more detail? Thanks. -- Adam Williamson (he/him/his) Fedora QA Fedora Chat: @adamwill:fedora.im | Mastodon: @ad...@fosstodon.org https://www.happyassassin.net -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2/3/24 01:12 AM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: Any interested people can already request comaintainership now (e.g., by replying to this mail), and I will almost certainly grant it (though I will have reservations about some specific types of requests, such as blanket admin permissions for the entire @kde-sig group), but of course contingent on the packages being approved (i.e., the FESCo hold on them being lifted, and the reviews subsequently passing), because there is nothing to comaintain before that point and also nowhere I can fill in those comaintainership requests before the dist-git Pagure repository is created. I am interested, FAS: stevenfalco -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Friday, 2 February 2024 20:56:22 CET Gary Buhrmaster wrote: > regarding tracking (and taking) bugs, and > lack of timely updates, for something as > visible as the entire desktop. Here you are highlighting some of my (I speak for me, not the KDE SIG) main concerns: - If a user decided to install the X11 package and has an issue: who do you think they are going to reach? who is gonna get the "bad publicity" for the issue? ( specially when we are forced to tell them we don't support X11...) - As the packages stand right now, the KDE general updates will have to wait for the proposed packages to be updated by their maintainers or we will have to do the updates ourselves (which defeats completely the point of our change proposal). Best regards, Marc -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On 2024-02-03 9:01 a.m., Björn Persson wrote: Neal Gompa wrote: It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. It's extremely obvious that *some* people want to use Wayland. It's equally obvious that some other people want to use X. It's also obvious that certain people want to make *everybody else* use Wayland. On the other hand I'm not seeing anyone trying to make everybody use X. Honestly this looks a lot like the usual human desire to force deviants into the mainstream mold. In the grand scheme of things, most people are in no way involved in the implementation/development of the software we build. So in this case, you're right; but at the same time the same remains true for all other changes in all other distros: We strive to make it as painless as possible for the end user, while doing as much as we can to foster development and improvements of new technologies. For me, at least, that is one of the major reasons I use Fedora, I love to see what is to come. Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, Building artificial obstacles to make it difficult for other people to use what works best for them is not friendly. I'm seeing people trying to make it difficult to use X by relegating it to Copr. I have not seen anyone try to relegate Wayland to Copr. So who's actually being unfriendly here? The users will come when Wayland provides a better user experience than X. For *their* usecases, not only for yours. Björn Persson Isn't that pretty much what we potentially risk doing every time we submit a change proposal, though? What about when GNOME decides to go towards a similar path and put out the xorg libraries from the project? Would fedora allow those libraries back through an external package like this? There's also a secondary thing that I feel hasn't been discussed here though: I know work is being done right now to isolate the x11 components of plasma and add build-time options to strip out those components. What happens when we (as-in, the KDE sig) split off those components and now you got 10-15+ x11 packages people gotta install to make it all work? Things will just be an absolute mess -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Neal Gompa wrote: > It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. It's extremely obvious that *some* people want to use Wayland. It's equally obvious that some other people want to use X. It's also obvious that certain people want to make *everybody else* use Wayland. On the other hand I'm not seeing anyone trying to make everybody use X. Honestly this looks a lot like the usual human desire to force deviants into the mainstream mold. > Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, Building artificial obstacles to make it difficult for other people to use what works best for them is not friendly. I'm seeing people trying to make it difficult to use X by relegating it to Copr. I have not seen anyone try to relegate Wayland to Copr. So who's actually being unfriendly here? The users will come when Wayland provides a better user experience than X. For *their* usecases, not only for yours. Björn Persson pgpK3GbmW35Af.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signatur -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 1:05 PM Sérgio Basto wrote: > > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 01:34 -0600, Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote: > > Hey folks, outside observer, and long-time Fedora user weighing in > > with > > some thoughts. First off, I've been hyped to see Fedora lead the way > > with finally making a real move to Wayland, and retire X11. And now > > I'm > > fairly disappointed to hear that there's a real chance that move will > > get killed. And especially that it's not because of a technical > > problem > > or blocker bug. > > I don't understand , why you want the others use a crap of software, > fully buggy, without many features , which is not supported by many > (like nvidia) , because is new ? > > Who wants use Wayland and test it, may use wayland and test it, it is > even the default . > > It is really difficult to me understand your point of view , users > should be free to use what they want and have choices, It is really > weird (for me) that you want that I use wayland and test wayland . > All of us in the KDE SIG daily drive Plasma Wayland, and have done so for quite a while. I (as well as most of the members) have since 2020, with the two members using NVIDIA beginning daily driving it in 2022 with the 515 driver release. I would not be pushing "crap" or "fully buggy" software "without many features" that is "not supported by many (like nvidia)". We literally waited until NVIDIA started properly supporting it, and spent a lot of time with upstream to improve the experience. With regards to NVIDIA, this cycle provides a lot of light at the end of the tunnel because the proprietary driver is optional for the newest generation of GPUs and eventually will be optional for the last six years of NVIDIA GPUs. Yes, it's not everything, but it's a lot and that's a big deal. The SIG has worked methodically and patiently toward this, in conjunction with upstream (the Fedora way), for three years. We're also gathering empirical data through our test week, and the results have been largely positive: https://testdays.fedoraproject.org/events/174 It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin. Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted. What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora Foundations, First and Features. And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated significant buzz in the community and media. I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :) -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Gary Buhrmaster wrote: > So, just to be clear, and to eliminate any > possible misinterpretation, you are > stating this is a one-person show at > this time? The Fedora package review policy states that the submitter automatically becomes the point of contact of the submitted packages. So, since I submitted those packages, if they are approved, I will be the one who will have to approve any comaintainers. By default, there will be none, which is just how the policy works. I believe from the discussions that there are already at least 1 or 2 people interested in comaintaining, but ultimately it is those people who will have to explicitly sign up for it. I obviously cannot announce somebody as a comaintainer without the alleged comaintainer's permission. Any interested people can already request comaintainership now (e.g., by replying to this mail), and I will almost certainly grant it (though I will have reservations about some specific types of requests, such as blanket admin permissions for the entire @kde-sig group), but of course contingent on the packages being approved (i.e., the FESCo hold on them being lifted, and the reviews subsequently passing), because there is nothing to comaintain before that point and also nowhere I can fill in those comaintainership requests before the dist-git Pagure repository is created. Kevin Kofler -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 2:32 AM Kevin Kofler via devel
wrote:
>
> Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> > For something that has the potential to
> > impact KDE users that would choose to
> > remain on X11, I would absolutely hope
> > there is more than just you involved in
> > the effort (busses, and vacations, happen).
> >
> > Having something like a KDE-X11-SIG
> > team (made up name), with a few known
> > active members, would probably go a long
> > way to reduce the concerns of others
> > regarding tracking (and taking) bugs, and
> > lack of timely updates, for something as
> > visible as the entire desktop.
>
> I welcome any comaintainers to the {kwin,plasma-workspace}-x11 packages (as
> long as they do not intend to abuse their access to retire the package
> without my agreement, of course). More helping hands = less work per person.
So, just to be clear, and to eliminate any
possible misinterpretation, you are
stating this is a one-person show at
this time?
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Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> For something that has the potential to
> impact KDE users that would choose to
> remain on X11, I would absolutely hope
> there is more than just you involved in
> the effort (busses, and vacations, happen).
>
> Having something like a KDE-X11-SIG
> team (made up name), with a few known
> active members, would probably go a long
> way to reduce the concerns of others
> regarding tracking (and taking) bugs, and
> lack of timely updates, for something as
> visible as the entire desktop.
I welcome any comaintainers to the {kwin,plasma-workspace}-x11 packages (as
long as they do not intend to abuse their access to retire the package
without my agreement, of course). More helping hands = less work per person.
Kevin Kofler
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Re: just to let you know FESCo agreed to a preliminary injunction while we consider this issue
On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 1:51 AM Kevin Kofler via devel
wrote:
> Unlike you ("you" = the KDE SIG), I actually believe I can probably keep my
> *-x11 packages on life support for some time even if and when KDE upstream
> drops their X11 support. Kinda like I have been doing for, e.g., Blogilo.
> Realistic would be until the release of Plasma 7, unless some Plasma 6.x
> introduces major changes that make it impractical. But I hope this is not
> going to be a concern for Fedora 40.
For something that has the potential to
impact KDE users that would choose to
remain on X11, I would absolutely hope
there is more than just you involved in
the effort (busses, and vacations, happen).
Having something like a KDE-X11-SIG
team (made up name), with a few known
active members, would probably go a long
way to reduce the concerns of others
regarding tracking (and taking) bugs, and
lack of timely updates, for something as
visible as the entire desktop.
--
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