Re: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
אני חושב שיש פה עניין גם ברמה המקומית כיתבתי את גיא גרימלנד מדהמרקר (שיוכל לחפור בתגובות למטה בשביל להבין על מה המהומה) - אם יש לכם עיתונאים נוספים שמספיק קשובים לעניין כדאי לשלוח גם להם. אני חושב שהעניין הוא חלק ממכלול של החרמה תרבותית או אקדמית אבל מעבר לכך - אין ספק שאדי היטיב לבטא את האכזבה לנוכח התנפצות האידיאלים שאנו חשבנו שיש לאיש ושאנו (בעקבותיו ובהנהגתו) גם ייחסנו לפעמים לעצמנו. ליאור On May 29, 2011, at 7:31 AM, Shachar Shemesh wrote: On 29/05/11 02:02, Omer Zak wrote: פרסמתי בסלאשדוט. אני חושב שטיפה פיספסת הזדמנות להיות נבזי עם הכותרת. הכותרת, אם אני הייתי כותב את אותה, היתה Stallman acepts proprietary type funding license. שחר צריך לדאוג שסטולמן יחטוף מכל העולם על בחירתו להכנע לחרם הפלשתינאי על האוניברסיטאות הישראליות. הוא היה אמור להרצות בין השאר באוניברסיטת חיפה, שם יש אחוז גבוה של פלשתינאים אזרחי ישראל, לא? אם היו לו ביצים לומר לפלשתינאים ללכת לעזעזל, סביר שהם היו מתקפלים. תקדים: לפני 50 שנה ויותר, חברות כמו מוטורולה ו-IBM אמרו לחרם הערבי ללכת לעזעזל ועשו עסקים במקביל עם ישראל ועם ארצות ערב. --- עומר On Sun, 2011-05-29 at 01:43 +0300, Adir Abraham wrote: אתה לא קיצוני, ואני מסכים איתך לחלוטין. העברתי הצעה דומה בנושא זה לועד. מבחינתי אין שום מניעה שהוא ירצה איפה שהוא רוצה (חופש, לא?). חבל שהוא בחר להכנע לסחיטות באופן שנוגד את הפילוסופיה שהוא בעצמו מעוניין להוביל. תודה, אדיר On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 1:37 AM, Tomer Cohentom...@gmail.com wrote: תקראו לי קיצוני מניאק, אבל לדעתי אנחנו צריכים לפוצץ את זה ולהוציא החוצה את המידע הזה. השכנים שלנו עשו תרגיל מלוכלך בכך שהם אוסרים עליו לבצע פעולות נוספות בזמנו החופשי, ואני חושב שאנחנו לא צריכים להסתיר את זה, במיוחד כאשר מדובר בהרצאות שנקבעו במקומות יוקרתיים ואנשים תכננו את לוח הזמנים שלהם בהתאם. (מי שמכיר אותי יודע שאני לא קיצוני ואין לי שום דבר אישי נגד פלסטינים או ערבים בכלל) 2011/5/29 Edward Aronovichedd...@tau.ac.il רצב הודעתו של סטולמן לגבי ההרצאות בישראל. אני מצרף את תגובתי (שמתי אותה לאחר הודעתו של סטולמן) רק בשל העובדה שאני רואה את החלטתו של סטולמן מנוגדת לתפישה של חופש ביטוי. אדי -Original Message- From: Richard Stallman Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 9:31 PM Subject: I have to cancel the speeches at universities The funds for my travel to Israel are coming from Palestinians who invited me to give talks for them. They are unhappy that I offered to give talks at Israeli universities, and say they won't buy the tickets if I'm going to do that. So I can go, and cancel these speeches, or not go, and cancel these speeches. I think it is best if I go, and give the speeches they originally invited me to give. I am sorry for the disappointment this will cause. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ -Original Message- From: Edward Aronovich Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 1:17 AM Subject: RE: I have to cancel the speeches at universities I am not disappointed that you will not give the talks - That is your legitimate right. When we had the same goals we set it and now we do not. That might happen and even though it is not pleasant it is not totally unacceptable. However, personally I start to doubt your truthfulness about freedom. Boycotting the Israeli Universities since you get funds from Palestinians means that you accepted the Palestinians proprietary license. Neither you nor them want to help their neighbor. That is the meaning of what you are doing. Oh boy, you should really re-consider the meaning of freedom given the agreements you make. You chose the Free beer giving up the Free of speech and that disappoints me very much since it has to do with the genuinity implementation of your own presented ideas. Farewell, Eddie -- Shachar
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Hi, This is my first post to this mailing list and regretfully on such a discussion. Why on earth did you people go and put this story on slashdot? Are you 10 years old? Are you nuts? Did any of you try to reach Stallman in an attempt to clarify his notice or fix the situation? This entire discussion is silly and childish at best. Nir 2011/5/29 Shai Berger s...@platonix.com On Sunday 29 May 2011 02:02:12 Omer Zak wrote: פרסמתי בסלאשדוט. קישור? אני לא רואה את זה בעמוד הראשי כרגע, וגם לא בחיפושים על RMS או Stallman. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Fwd: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
אני חייב לציין שהתאווה פה לדם מפתיעה אותי. אף אחד פה לא קדוש, כולנו עצמנו עין בחיינו ובלענו צפרדע ולא רק לצרכי פרנסה. אז גיליתם שלסטולמן יש סדר עדיפויות, שהוא לא קדוש ונעלה יותר מאיתנו, שיש לו סתירות ומוזרויות באופי. וואו. עכשיו גיליתם את זה? האיש אומר את זה בבירור באתר שלו - אני לוחם חופש, במקרה העבודה שאני עושה יותר בולטת בתחום התוכנה. אתם באמת חושבים שהוא טמבל עיוור ולא רואה את האבסורד בשטות הזו? ברור לי שהוא מעדיף להרביץ את תורת חופש התוכנה במדינה שעומדת לקום מאשר לתת שוב את הרצאת הדרייברים למדפסות לקהל מכור. האיש בחר בחירה לגמרי לגיטימית. אולי הוא אפילו מקווה לשכנע אותם לשנות את דעתם ולהודיע לנו שהוא כן יכול לפגוש אותנו, אני לא יודע. מה שהוא לא יגיד יכול כרגע לצאת לא טוב פוליטית/דיפלומטית. תנו לו לענות לפני שאתם מפציצים את זה לכל העיתונים. גם לשלוח לסלאשדוט לפני שמקבלים את תגובתו לאדי זה קצת לא הוגן. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Fwd: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
(Sorry I have to resend, the mailman keeps bouncing my posts for various reasons, I hope you are not getting this twice) -- Forwarded message -- Injustice is *happening now*; suffering is *happening now*. We have choices to make *now*. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral. *Quote: Richard Stalman, Slashdot interviewhttp://interviews.slashdot.org/story/00/05/01/1052216/Thus-Spake-Stallman?art_pos=431 May 2000 * כאמור, אני מאמין שהוא חושב שהנחלת רעיונות של חופש דיבור ותוכנה בפלאסטין, ברשות הפלאסטינית ומשרד החינוך שלה במיוחד, חשובים יותר כרגע מאשר עוד הרצאה בחיפה, או ויתור על זכות הדיבור שלו בתוך הקו הירוק. זה קרבן שהוא מקריב בוודאי לא בקלות. אם הוא היה מחרים את ישראל הוא היה אומר את זה בלי סייגים ובגאווה. זה לא המצב. הוא יודע שיש לו מעריצים פה. כדא אם ככה לא לרפות את ידיו. להסביר לו שנעלבנו אבל אנחנו מוכנים להבין שיש פה סדר עדיפויות. להזכיר שישראלים תורמים הרבה פיתוח של RTL בתוכנה חופשית שמועילה גם לעולם הערבי, להעזר בנו ולעודד אצלם שיתוף פעולה עם ישראלים בפיתוח תוכנות כי בעיית השפות השמיות צריכה לאחד אותנו מול העולם הימינופובי (שמאלופילי?) ולפתח ביחד תוכנות שתומכות שלום, חינוך, שיתוף פעולה, מוקרטיה ישירה ושקופה וכהנה מסרים חיוביים, ואולי אפשר לעזור לו ללמד את השיעור הזה לפלאסטינים, במקום להפוך את זה למלחמה תקשורתית שרק תהפוך את הלינצ' הזה למביך וכואב לכל הצדדים, ואולי למנוף פוליטי לאנשים שממש כבר לא תהיה לנו שליטה על איך שהם יבחרו להשתמש בסיפור. אני בטוח שמיקרוסופט ישראל ושותפותיה בחומרה ישמחו לעשות מזה צימעס, ואם ניתן להם ביד את הנשק הזה אז אנחנו ממש אהבלים. צריך לזכור שחופש התוכנה איננו סטולמן. זה רעיון, ורעיון שלם ומגובה בעובדות בשטח. אסור לנטוש את העמדה הזו בגלל שלא נראית לנו החלטתו של אדם אחד. אנשים הם לא הרעיונות עצמם. התקפה של סטולמן איננה עולה לדעתי בקנה אחד עם האידאולוגיה, והאידאולוגיה בוודאי חשובה לי יותר ממנו. בכל מקרה במקום לרוץ להתאכזב ממנו, אני אשמח לשמוע מה יש לו להגיב קודם, ואם אדי לא מעביר לו את המסר הזה, אין לי בעיה לכתוב לו ישירות. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Nir: I'm not sure I understand what you think Stallman needs to clarify about his behavior. He already stated quite clearly what his reason is for cancelling: His Palestinian hosts allegedly informed him that if he speaks in Israel, then he is no longer welcome to speak by them. What part of that did you not understand? If you are implying that there is a deeper, unstated reason for Stallman's cancellation, which he chose not to mention -- well, I would tend to agree with that. But there is no need to demand any clarification from him in order to find out what it is: Stallman is a radical anti-Israel extremist, as a brief Google search will reveal rather quickly. It is thus hardly surprising that he cancelled his appearance here; the only surprise was that he ever agreed to it in the first place, before coming to his senses. I would also venture an educated guess that Stallman's Palestinian hosts were actually *not* the people who raised objections to his speaking engagements here. Far more likely that the objectors were anti-Israel BDS activists from the US college campus scene, who are Stallman's buddies. As Eddie correctly wrote in his reply to Stallman, cancelling the talks is Stallman's legitimate right. People have the right to go and to speak, or not to, wherever they please -- even if their motivations are hateful and morally repugnant, as they most certainly are in Stallman's case. But by the same token, the rest of us have the right, and perhaps even the obligation, to loudly publicize and condemn that morally repugnant behavior. As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis wrote, Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Moshe On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Nir Aides n...@winpdb.org wrote: Hi, This is my first post to this mailing list and regretfully on such a discussion. Why on earth did you people go and put this story on slashdot? Are you 10 years old? Are you nuts? Did any of you try to reach Stallman in an attempt to clarify his notice or fix the situation? This entire discussion is silly and childish at best. Nir 2011/5/29 Shai Berger s...@platonix.com On Sunday 29 May 2011 02:02:12 Omer Zak wrote: פרסמתי בסלאשדוט. קישור? אני לא רואה את זה בעמוד הראשי כרגע, וגם לא בחיפושים על RMS או Stallman. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
ראשית, הנה עלה האייטם הראשון, אני מקווה שצמאי הדם שמחים: http://www.haaretz.co.il/captain/spages/1229585.html שנית, משה: סטולמן איננו אנטי-ישראלי, הוא אנטי אלימות ודיכוי. חרם BDS איננו אנטי-ישראלי, הוא נגד אלימות ודיכוי. אנשי שמאל שמנשים לקדם שלום אינם פוסט ציונים או אנטי-ציוניים, אנחנו נגד אלימות ודיכוי. אם כל אדם שדואג לזכויות אדם, לחירות והתנגדות לדיכוי הוא אויב האנושות, או לפחות ההגמוניה היהודית במדינה שאמורה היתה להיות דמוקרטית, אז רוב העולם היה וימשיך להיות נגדינו. אני חושב שהגיע הזמן למתן קצת את ההקצנה. סטולמן לא רדיקלי ולא בטיח. הוא מייצג את עמדת הרוב השפוי, הדומם, כשהוא מבקר אותנו, הוא מדבר נגד גדר ההפרדה, נגד המצור על עזה, נגד ההתנהגויות במחסומים. לא חושב שאי פעם ראיתי אותו מדבר נגד הלגיטימיות של ישראל כדמוקרטיה או כבית לאומי ליהודים, אתה מוזמן להוכיח לי שאני טועה, ואוכל את הכובע. אני מבקר את אותם הדברים. כמו שאמרתי, סטולמן לא ביישן. אם זו היתה החלטה שלו להחרים מרצונו את ישראל, הוא היה אומר את זה בגאווה. זה לא המקרה לדעתי. מצד שני אני, אתה וסטולמן יודעים שגם לא חסר אי צדק ושחיתות בתוך מנגנוני הרשות הפלאסטינית. האיש החליט שעדיף לו לבלוע צפרדע ולהרביץ בהם תורה על חופש הדיבור והתוכנה. אולי הם יבינו אפילו איפה הם פישלו פה ויתנו לו לדבר גם אצלנו? אולי, אבל אם נתקוף אותו אולי לא. זה יוכיח להם ולו שהישראלים ששים אלי דם ופרסומים שליליים כמו כל אחד אחר, ובוחרים רצח אופי לפני זכות דיבור וחופש הבחירה של אנשים. אם זה עולה לך בקנה אחד עם עקרונות החירות (ביטוי, תוכנה וכולי), אז עשה בדק בית, כי לדעתי אתה חי עם סתירה גדולה מכדי להתעלם ממנה. עירא. On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 11:03, Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.eduwrote: Nir: I'm not sure I understand what you think Stallman needs to clarify about his behavior. He already stated quite clearly what his reason is for cancelling: His Palestinian hosts allegedly informed him that if he speaks in Israel, then he is no longer welcome to speak by them. What part of that did you not understand? If you are implying that there is a deeper, unstated reason for Stallman's cancellation, which he chose not to mention -- well, I would tend to agree with that. But there is no need to demand any clarification from him in order to find out what it is: Stallman is a radical anti-Israel extremist, as a brief Google search will reveal rather quickly. It is thus hardly surprising that he cancelled his appearance here; the only surprise was that he ever agreed to it in the first place, before coming to his senses. I would also venture an educated guess that Stallman's Palestinian hosts were actually *not* the people who raised objections to his speaking engagements here. Far more likely that the objectors were anti-Israel BDS activists from the US college campus scene, who are Stallman's buddies. As Eddie correctly wrote in his reply to Stallman, cancelling the talks is Stallman's legitimate right. People have the right to go and to speak, or not to, wherever they please -- even if their motivations are hateful and morally repugnant, as they most certainly are in Stallman's case. But by the same token, the rest of us have the right, and perhaps even the obligation, to loudly publicize and condemn that morally repugnant behavior. As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis wrote, Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Moshe ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
On Sunday 29 May 2011 11:17:39 Ira Abramov wrote: ראשית, הנה עלה האייטם הראשון, אני מקווה שצמאי הדם שמחים: http://www.haaretz.co.il/captain/spages/1229585.html שנית, משה: סטולמן איננו אנטי-ישראלי, הוא אנטי אלימות ודיכוי. למיטב ידיעתי, זה נכון. חרם BDS איננו אנטי-ישראלי, הוא נגד אלימות ודיכוי. את זה אוכל לקבל כשתהיה תנועת BDS נגד מדינות שמפעילות אלימות ודיכוי גרועים בהרבה מישראל. אנשי שמאל שמנשים לקדם שלום אינם פוסט ציונים או אנטי-ציוניים, אנחנו נגד אלימות ודיכוי. אני מסכים לחלוטין. אבל אנשי שמאל שמנסים לקדם את השלום באמצעות הפעלת לחצים חיצוניים על המדינה, ולא באמצעות שכנוע אזרחיה ומנהיגיה, הם אנטי־דמוקרטים. כמו שאמרתי, סטולמן לא ביישן. אם זו היתה החלטה שלו להחרים מרצונו את ישראל, הוא היה אומר את זה בגאווה. זה לא המקרה לדעתי. שוב, אתה צודק. מצד שני אני, אתה וסטולמן יודעים שגם לא חסר אי צדק ושחיתות בתוך מנגנוני הרשות הפלאסטינית. האיש החליט שעדיף לו לבלוע צפרדע ולהרביץ בהם תורה על חופש הדיבור והתוכנה. אולי הם יבינו אפילו איפה הם פישלו פה ויתנו לו לדבר גם אצלנו? אולי, אבל אם נתקוף אותו אולי לא. כמו שאמרת, הוא לא ביישן. זה יוכיח להם ולו שהישראלים ששים אלי דם ופרסומים שליליים כמו כל אחד אחר, ובוחרים רצח אופי ממתי פרסום האמת הוא רצח אופי? שי. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
2011/5/29 Ira Abramov hama...@ira.abramov.org: מדבר נגד גדר ההפרדה He might have changed his mind then: http://stallman.org/good-fences.html Could you send a link for a more recent comment please? Gabor ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
i think the fact that stallman already came to israel and gave a speech here about free software, several years ago (In IBM haifa, sponsored by IBM) - implies that your conclusion is not very likely to be correct. --guy On Sun, 2011-05-29 at 11:03 +0300, Moshe Z. Matitya wrote: Nir: I'm not sure I understand what you think Stallman needs to clarify about his behavior. He already stated quite clearly what his reason is for cancelling: His Palestinian hosts allegedly informed him that if he speaks in Israel, then he is no longer welcome to speak by them. What part of that did you not understand? If you are implying that there is a deeper, unstated reason for Stallman's cancellation, which he chose not to mention -- well, I would tend to agree with that. But there is no need to demand any clarification from him in order to find out what it is: Stallman is a radical anti-Israel extremist, as a brief Google search will reveal rather quickly. It is thus hardly surprising that he cancelled his appearance here; the only surprise was that he ever agreed to it in the first place, before coming to his senses. I would also venture an educated guess that Stallman's Palestinian hosts were actually *not* the people who raised objections to his speaking engagements here. Far more likely that the objectors were anti-Israel BDS activists from the US college campus scene, who are Stallman's buddies. As Eddie correctly wrote in his reply to Stallman, cancelling the talks is Stallman's legitimate right. People have the right to go and to speak, or not to, wherever they please -- even if their motivations are hateful and morally repugnant, as they most certainly are in Stallman's case. But by the same token, the rest of us have the right, and perhaps even the obligation, to loudly publicize and condemn that morally repugnant behavior. As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis wrote, Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Moshe On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Nir Aides n...@winpdb.org wrote: Hi, This is my first post to this mailing list and regretfully on such a discussion. Why on earth did you people go and put this story on slashdot? Are you 10 years old? Are you nuts? Did any of you try to reach Stallman in an attempt to clarify his notice or fix the situation? This entire discussion is silly and childish at best. Nir 2011/5/29 Shai Berger s...@platonix.com On Sunday 29 May 2011 02:02:12 Omer Zak wrote: פרסמתי בסלאשדוט. קישור? אני לא רואה את זה בעמוד הראשי כרגע, וגם לא בחיפושים על RMS או Stallman. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
עירא על תבלבל עם העובדות. אני מבין שאתה בטוח שהרשות הפלסטינאית היא דוגמה לדמוקרטיה מצטיינת, ואין שם דיכוי ואלימות. חיסול משתפים קורה שם עדיין, דיכוי נשים ומיעוטים הוא לחם חוקם. תעשו טובה תקראו לילד בשמו, שנאת ישראל, על תנסו למרוח אותנו בסיפורי הדיכוי והאלימות. כל הדיכוי והאלימות של ישראל הוא לא בקרוב למה שקורה ברגעים אלו בעזה, סוריה או לוב. -- Dov Shmuely Home : +972-8-9700224 Work:+972-8-6625-110 Fax : +972-8-6625-090 Mobile : +972-50-2574594 Car: +972-54-5574594 ICQ :175415764 On Sun, 2011-05-29 at 11:17 +0300, Ira Abramov wrote: ראשית, הנה עלה האייטם הראשון, אני מקווה שצמאי הדם שמחים: http://www.haaretz.co.il/captain/spages/1229585.html שנית, משה: סטולמן איננו אנטי-ישראלי, הוא אנטי אלימות ודיכוי. חרם BDS איננו אנטי-ישראלי, הוא נגד אלימות ודיכוי. אנשי שמאל שמנשים לקדם שלום אינם פוסט ציונים או אנטי-ציוניים, אנחנו נגד אלימות ודיכוי. אם כל אדם שדואג לזכויות אדם, לחירות והתנגדות לדיכוי הוא אויב האנושות, או לפחות ההגמוניה היהודית במדינה שאמורה היתה להיות דמוקרטית, אז רוב העולם היה וימשיך להיות נגדינו. אני חושב שהגיע הזמן למתן קצת את ההקצנה. סטולמן לא רדיקלי ולא בטיח. הוא מייצג את עמדת הרוב השפוי, הדומם, כשהוא מבקר אותנו, הוא מדבר נגד גדר ההפרדה, נגד המצור על עזה, נגד ההתנהגויות במחסומים. לא חושב שאי פעם ראיתי אותו מדבר נגד הלגיטימיות של ישראל כדמוקרטיה או כבית לאומי ליהודים, אתה מוזמן להוכיח לי שאני טועה, ואוכל את הכובע. אני מבקר את אותם הדברים. כמו שאמרתי, סטולמן לא ביישן. אם זו היתה החלטה שלו להחרים מרצונו את ישראל, הוא היה אומר את זה בגאווה. זה לא המקרה לדעתי. מצד שני אני, אתה וסטולמן יודעים שגם לא חסר אי צדק ושחיתות בתוך מנגנוני הרשות הפלאסטינית. האיש החליט שעדיף לו לבלוע צפרדע ולהרביץ בהם תורה על חופש הדיבור והתוכנה. אולי הם יבינו אפילו איפה הם פישלו פה ויתנו לו לדבר גם אצלנו? אולי, אבל אם נתקוף אותו אולי לא. זה יוכיח להם ולו שהישראלים ששים אלי דם ופרסומים שליליים כמו כל אחד אחר, ובוחרים רצח אופי לפני זכות דיבור וחופש הבחירה של אנשים. אם זה עולה לך בקנה אחד עם עקרונות החירות (ביטוי, תוכנה וכולי), אז עשה בדק בית, כי לדעתי אתה חי עם סתירה גדולה מכדי להתעלם ממנה. עירא. On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 11:03, Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.edu wrote: Nir: I'm not sure I understand what you think Stallman needs to clarify about his behavior. He already stated quite clearly what his reason is for cancelling: His Palestinian hosts allegedly informed him that if he speaks in Israel, then he is no longer welcome to speak by them. What part of that did you not understand? If you are implying that there is a deeper, unstated reason for Stallman's cancellation, which he chose not to mention -- well, I would tend to agree with that. But there is no need to demand any clarification from him in order to find out what it is: Stallman is a radical anti-Israel extremist, as a brief Google search will reveal rather quickly. It is thus hardly surprising that he cancelled his appearance here; the only surprise was that he ever agreed to it in the first place, before coming to his senses. I would also venture an educated guess that Stallman's Palestinian hosts were actually *not* the people who raised objections to his speaking engagements here. Far more likely that the objectors were anti-Israel BDS activists from the US college campus scene, who are Stallman's buddies. As Eddie correctly wrote in his reply to Stallman, cancelling the talks is Stallman's legitimate right. People have the right to go and to speak, or not to, wherever they please -- even if their motivations are hateful and morally repugnant, as they most certainly are in Stallman's case. But by the same token, the rest of us have the right, and perhaps even the obligation, to loudly publicize and condemn that morally repugnant behavior. As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis wrote, Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Moshe ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions attachment: Linux383935.png signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
אתם יודעים מה? זו בדיוק הסיבה שהצעתי וביקשתי שהוא יבוא לדבר בישראל גם על דעותיו הפוליטיות מחוץ לתחום התוכנה כדי להבהיר את העניינים האלו אחת ולתמיד. אנשים אז התנגדו להצעתי, אבל מתעקשים עכשיו בכל מחיר להפוך את החלטתו של סטולמן לאנטי-ישראלית במקום לפרו-חינוך הרשות הפלאסטינית. לכן רציתי שיבקשו ממנו תגובה, אחרת זה יהפוך למשהו מאוד מכוער שיראה את כל קהילת הקוד החופשי באור מאוד לא טוב - גם פוליטית וגם מסחרית. 2011/5/29 Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.edu עירא: מצד שני אני, אתה וסטולמן יודעים שגם לא חסר אי צדק ושחיתות בתוך מנגנוני הרשות הפלאסטינית. באמת? אני חושב שאי פעם ראיתי אותו מדבר נגד האי צדק ושחיתות בהרשות הפלאסטינית -- למרות כל הביקורת הקשה שלו נגד ישראל. (זה לא אומר לך משהו?) אתה מוזמן להוכיח לי שאני טועה, ו*אני* אוכל את הכובע... ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
On Sun, May 29, 2011, Ira Abramov wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: ראשית, הנה עלה האייטם הראשון, אני מקווה שצמאי הדם שמחים: http://www.haaretz.co.il/captain/spages/1229585.html והנה הידיעה השניה: http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3519167,00.html -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, May 29 2011, 25 Iyyar 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Share your knowledge. It's a way to http://nadav.harel.org.il |achieve immortality. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.edu wrote: Stallman is a radical anti-Israel extremist, as a brief Google search will reveal rather quickly. I ran quite some searches and read some of his posts and I have not seen anything radical anti-Israeli. There are lots of things he points out about Israel that hurt me. I would like to see Israel as a state that ensures the human rights of both of its citizens and its neighbors and some of his post show that it is far from being true. If you look at his posts you can see he also posts lots of bad things about other countries. Both first wordl (e.g. Spain) and third world. The situation might be a lot better in Israel than in Syria or Iran or even the Palestinian Authority but I don't think that needs to be the way we measure ourselves. As to Stallman, I am very surprised he did not use his influence pointing out to the Palestinians that his talks in Israel would be actually good for them. I am quite sure Stallman, in his speeches in Israel would have pointed out the shortcomings of the Israeli democracy. Including that of the occupation. So I think with this boycott both the Palestinians and Stallman just hurt their own cause. Gabor http://szabgab.com/ ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
סלחו לי אבל אני לא רואה איך בדיוק לקבל סטירה מהפלשתינים יקדם שוויון ושיתוף פעולה, בואו נודה שהפסדנו ונראה לו את הדרך לרדת מהעץ שהוא טיפס עליו, לסטולמן יש עקרונות מסוימים וזה מאוד לא מכובד מצדו לבגוד בהם אבל בכל זאת אסור לאבד את הראש ולרדת לרמה שלו... -- Yaron Shahrabani Hebrew translator ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
מעניין מה היה קורה עם המצב היה הפוך והישראלי היו מבקשים ממנו לא להרצות אצל הפלסטנאים. - *Dov Shmuely* *Home* : +972-8-9700224 *Work*:+972-8-6625-110 *Fax *: +972-8-6625-090 *Mobile *: +972-50-2574594 *Car*: +972-54-5574594 *ICQ *:175415764 - 2011/5/29 Yaron Shahrabani sh.ya...@gmail.com סלחו לי אבל אני לא רואה איך בדיוק לקבל סטירה מהפלשתינים יקדם שוויון ושיתוף פעולה, בואו נודה שהפסדנו ונראה לו את הדרך לרדת מהעץ שהוא טיפס עליו, לסטולמן יש עקרונות מסוימים וזה מאוד לא מכובד מצדו לבגוד בהם אבל בכל זאת אסור לאבד את הראש ולרדת לרמה שלו... -- Yaron Shahrabani Hebrew translator ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
2011/5/29 Nadav Har'El n...@math.technion.ac.il: On Sun, May 29, 2011, Ira Abramov wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: כמו שאמרתי, סטולמן לא ביישן. אם זו היתה החלטה שלו להחרים מרצונו את ישראל, הוא היה אומר את זה בגאווה. זה לא המקרה לדעתי. תארו לכם ששתי אוניברסיטאות שכנות רוצות להזמין אורח, אבל רק אחת מהן משלמת את כל מחיר הטיסה. לא מפתיע שהאוניברסיטה המשלמת מרגישה פריירית. עכשיו תוסיפו לכך את העובדה שיש יריבות לאומית בין שתי האוניברסיטאות, ודי ברור מדוע הפלסטינים מסרבים לממן את ביקורו של סטולמן בישראל. כנראה שסירוב כזה נשמע לגיטימי גם לסטולמן. Nadav, Usually your comments are extremely clever so I was surprised that you are raising the issue of who is financing the trip. If that was really the issue I am sure Stallman could write to the 3 Israeli organizers and ask them if they can help in splitting the costs. I am sure we could have come up with the money. I am very surprised and disappointed at his decision as it could have been an opportunity in lots of directions. For example the Palestinians could have come up with a head-line Palestinians financing the speeches of RMS in Israel about Freedom of Speech or if they really want to solve things together then: Freedom of speech unites the Palestinian and Israeli hackers Of course I could even accept the otherwise very paternalistic view of The Palestinians need to hear Stallman. They need to hear about freedom and we Israelis don't as we already know all if it. If he pointed that out in his mail. He did not. So we can only put words in his mouth regarding this. Gabor http://szabgab.com/ ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
On Sunday 29 May 2011 01:51:58 Tomer Cohen wrote: מוזר שאותם אנשים החליטו לבחור בצורת מחאה כל־כך בוטה. הרי ידוע לכל שסטולמן לא ממש בעדנו, אבל בסופו של דבר דווקא הקוד הפתוח הוא מהווה זרז גדול לקירוב בין לבבות אנשים ומאפשר לנו לבצע איתם שיתופי פעולה רבים ואני בטוח שהם אפילו זוכים להנות מפיתוחים שאנחנו עושים בארץ בתחום ה־RTL מבלי שאנחנו מנסים למנוע מהם. הדוגמה הזו היא כנגד אידיאולוגית החופש ממש כמו האנטישמי ההוא שמוביל את פיתוח ההפצה Mint. ממש מאכזב. האם הוא אנטישמי או רק מתנגד לפנים מסוימות של ההתנהלות הפוליטית הישראלית? ראה: http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/politics/define-zionism/ מההתרשמות שלי הוא אינו אנטישמי. בכבוד רב, שלומי פיש -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris/etc. Facts - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/ The number of items on an open-source project's to-do list always grows or remains constant. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
On Sun, May 29, 2011, Gabor Szabo wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: Nadav,Usually your comments are extremely clever Thanks ;-) so I was surprised that youare raising the issue of who is financing the trip. If that was reallythe issue I am sure Stallman could write to the 3 Israeli organizersand ask them if they can help in splitting the costs. I am sure we could have come up with the money. Maybe he thought that the Israeli universities would not agree to finance the trip (I would have thought so too). Maybe he even asked them earlier, and they said they can't afford it. Maybe he thought he doesn't have enough time to start this sort of beaurocracy now. Or maybe he thought that people would find demanding money at the last moment even more offensive than not coming at all. If we think that we can actually pull off this funding, in a timely manner, then *we* can offer this option to him. He doesn't have to beg us... Of course I could even accept the otherwise very paternalistic view ofThe Palestinians need to hear Stallman. They need to hear about freedom andwe Israelis don't as we already know all if it. If he pointed thatout in his mail.He did not. So we can only put words in his mouth regarding this. These were not my words, so I wasn't the one putting these words in his mouth - maybe you're responding to someone else. In his mail Stallman didn't say he's coming to the PA instead of Israel because the Palestenians need his lecture more. Rather, he says that his *original* plan was to go there, and the Palestenians invited him and paid for his trip. The excursion into Israel was an afterthought, and now that he has to choose, he chooses to continue with the *original plan* - which doesn't mean he thinks it is more important than anything else, just that it was the original plan. -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, May 29 2011, 25 Iyyar 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Having a smoking section in a restaurant http://nadav.harel.org.il |is like having a peeing section in a pool ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Nadav Har'El n...@math.technion.ac.il wrote: On Sun, May 29, 2011, Gabor Szabo wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: so I was surprised that youare raising the issue of who is financing the trip. If that was reallythe issue I am sure Stallman could write to the 3 Israeli organizersand ask them if they can help in splitting the costs. I am sure we could have come up with the money. Maybe he thought that the Israeli universities would not agree to finance the trip (I would have thought so too). Maybe he even asked them earlier, and they said they can't afford it. Maybe he thought he doesn't have enough time to start this sort of beaurocracy now. Or maybe he thought that people would find demanding money at the last moment even more offensive than not coming at all. If we think that we can actually pull off this funding, in a timely manner, then *we* can offer this option to him. He doesn't have to beg us... I think *we* - the open source community - could easily put this money together even if the universities did not come up with the money but I am not sure at this point I'd want to do that. I don't think it would have been begging if he he told us what is the situation. But again, I doubt that the real reason the Palestinians wanted him to skip Israel is the money. Of course I could even accept the otherwise very paternalistic view ofThe Palestinians need to hear Stallman. They need to hear about freedom andwe Israelis don't as we already know all if it. If he pointed thatout in his mail.He did not. So we can only put words in his mouth regarding this. These were not my words, so I wasn't the one putting these words in his mouth - maybe you're responding to someone else. Right. I should have pointed it out or send a separate message but I already sent too many :) Sorry for that. Gabor ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
http://www.themarker.com/hitech/1.648350 אשר יגורתי בא לנו. גרימלאנד העלה אייטם סנסציוני ומציג את RMS כיותר סהרורי וקפריזי ממה שהוא כבר. אני חושש שאם לא תצא תגובה רשמית מפייסת בהקדם מוועד המקור זה יהיה אסון יחצנות שכולנו עלולים להנזק ממנו, במיוחד אנשים שתכנה חופשית מהווה אחוז גדול מההכנסות שלו. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
קודם כל גרימלנד הוא השלישי שפירסם (קדמו לו חורים ברשת , הארץ וכלכליסט) כך שלא צריך את ההדלפות המסודרות שלנו בשביל להגיע לכיסוי תקשורתי. שנית אני חושב שאתה מגזים באסון היחצנות - סטולמן תמיד היה הזוי וייתכן שתמונה אחת שלו עם הדיסק על הראש היתה מקבעת את זה הרבה יותר מהמלל. אם כבר (במדינתנו הפאשיסטית) ברגע שאתה מוחרם אתה קיים והמיינסטרים מחבק אותך. בתור אדם שמתפרנס זה זמן רב מקוד פתוח - התנועה הזו - גם כשאני מתאר אותה ללקוחות אינה הומוגנית ומורכב מהצד הפרדגמטי ומהצד האידיאולוגי (שסטולמן הינו הסמן הקיצוני שלה). לקוחות בוגרים יודעים להכיל ולעשות הפרדה. ליאור On May 29, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Ira Abramov wrote: http://www.themarker.com/hitech/1.648350 אשר יגורתי בא לנו. גרימלאנד העלה אייטם סנסציוני ומציג את RMS כיותר סהרורי וקפריזי ממה שהוא כבר. אני חושש שאם לא תצא תגובה רשמית מפייסת בהקדם מוועד המקור זה יהיה אסון יחצנות שכולנו עלולים להנזק ממנו, במיוחד אנשים שתכנה חופשית מהווה אחוז גדול מההכנסות שלו. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions Lior Kesos l...@linnovate.net 0524-305252 http://www.linnovate.net ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
גם אני חושב שכדאי לרתום את התקרית הזאת לטובתנו, ולהציג את קהילת התוכנה החופשית בארץ כשוחרי שלום ואוהבי הזולת, ולשים את הדעות הפוליטיות שלנו בצד. כתוצאה מכך לא רק שאנחנו נצא טוב, אלא שגם אותם אנשים שחשבו שזה ליגיטימי לקבוע לאדם היכן מותר לו לדבר והיכן אסור עשויים להבין מכך את גודל הטעות שהם עושים. אם ועד העמותה אינו מעוניין לייצג אותנו ולהיות החתום על מכתב שכזה, אולי כדאי לנו להוציא הודעה פומבית ולחתום עליה בתור פעילי תוכנה חופשית בישראל ולא בשם המקור. להלן רעיונות שאפשר להעלות במכתב שכזה, אתם מוזמנים להוסיף את שלכם. • פיתוחים רבים בתחום התוכנה החופשית מבוצעים בישראל על־ידי ישראלים ומשמשים לאחר מכן אחרים בכלל רחבי העולם, ובדגש על RTL שמשמש בעיקר את דוברי השפה הערבית ואותנו. • במסגרת פעילותנו בתחום התוכנה החופשית יוצא לנו לעבוד מול תושבי הרשות הפלסטינאית ואזרחי מדינות שכנות, כולל אנשים שאין למדינתנו קשרים רשמיים איתן. אנו משאירים את הדעות הפוליטיות בצד ומקדמים יחדיו נושאים שחשובים לכולנו. • מעולם לא קראנו לחרם על אדם או גוף כלשהו, והגזרה מצד מארגני האירוע הפלסטיני אינם עומדים בעקרונות ובאידיאלים של רוח תנועת התכנה החופשית. (דוגמאות לשיתופי פעולה בתחום התכנה החופשית עם תושבי הרשות? זכור לי שהיו כמה…) 2011/5/29 Ira Abramov hama...@ira.abramov.org http://www.themarker.com/hitech/1.648350 אשר יגורתי בא לנו. גרימלאנד העלה אייטם סנסציוני ומציג את RMS כיותר סהרורי וקפריזי ממה שהוא כבר. אני חושש שאם לא תצא תגובה רשמית מפייסת בהקדם מוועד המקור זה יהיה אסון יחצנות שכולנו עלולים להנזק ממנו, במיוחד אנשים שתכנה חופשית מהווה אחוז גדול מההכנסות שלו. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions -- *Tomer Cohen* http://tomercohen.com ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
פניתי אל RMS כדי לקבל כמה הסברים, וגם לשאול אותו אם ירצה לשתף פעולה או להגיב בשחרור הצהרה שכזו לתקשורת. אעדכן אם וכאשר יענה. 2011/5/29 Tomer Cohen tom...@gmail.com גם אני חושב שכדאי לרתום את התקרית הזאת לטובתנו, ולהציג את קהילת התוכנה החופשית בארץ כשוחרי שלום ואוהבי הזולת, ולשים את הדעות הפוליטיות שלנו בצד. כתוצאה מכך לא רק שאנחנו נצא טוב, אלא שגם אותם אנשים שחשבו שזה ליגיטימי לקבוע לאדם היכן מותר לו לדבר והיכן אסור עשויים להבין מכך את גודל הטעות שהם עושים. אם ועד העמותה אינו מעוניין לייצג אותנו ולהיות החתום על מכתב שכזה, אולי כדאי לנו להוציא הודעה פומבית ולחתום עליה בתור פעילי תוכנה חופשית בישראל ולא בשם המקור. להלן רעיונות שאפשר להעלות במכתב שכזה, אתם מוזמנים להוסיף את שלכם. • פיתוחים רבים בתחום התוכנה החופשית מבוצעים בישראל על־ידי ישראלים ומשמשים לאחר מכן אחרים בכלל רחבי העולם, ובדגש על RTL שמשמש בעיקר את דוברי השפה הערבית ואותנו. • במסגרת פעילותנו בתחום התוכנה החופשית יוצא לנו לעבוד מול תושבי הרשות הפלסטינאית ואזרחי מדינות שכנות, כולל אנשים שאין למדינתנו קשרים רשמיים איתן. אנו משאירים את הדעות הפוליטיות בצד ומקדמים יחדיו נושאים שחשובים לכולנו. • מעולם לא קראנו לחרם על אדם או גוף כלשהו, והגזרה מצד מארגני האירוע הפלסטיני אינם עומדים בעקרונות ובאידיאלים של רוח תנועת התכנה החופשית. (דוגמאות לשיתופי פעולה בתחום התכנה החופשית עם תושבי הרשות? זכור לי שהיו כמה…) ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Oh yes, for sure. And not only that -- it will also make the PA realize that they should stop torturing and executing gay people, and they'll stop publishing children's schoolbooks that refer to Jews as the sons of pigs and monkeys who must all be killed. Furthermore, I expect that as soon as Hamas realizes that we are turning the other cheek to Richard Stallman, they will immediately renounce terrorism, stop launching rockets at us, and release Gilad Shalit. And Hassan Nasrallah will be suddenly filled with a warm, fuzzy feeling of brotherly love, and he'll come out of his bunker and join together with us in Jerusalem in singing Kumbaya... 2011/5/29 Tomer Cohen tom...@gmail.com גם אני חושב שכדאי לרתום את התקרית הזאת לטובתנו, ולהציג את קהילת התוכנה החופשית בארץ כשוחרי שלום ואוהבי הזולת, ולשים את הדעות הפוליטיות שלנו בצד. כתוצאה מכך לא רק שאנחנו נצא טוב, אלא שגם אותם אנשים שחשבו שזה ליגיטימי לקבוע לאדם היכן מותר לו לדבר והיכן אסור עשויים להבין מכך את גודל הטעות שהם עושים. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
אתה יודע, בין החברים שלי, אני נחשב תמיד הביקורתי, פטאליסט, פסימיסט, מלך הציניים ומה לא. אחרי התגובות שאני רואה כאן היום, אני חושב שאני ממש לא צריך להרגיש רע עם עצמי. משה, כמו שאומרים האמריקנים - אם אתה לא חלק מהפתרון אתה חלק מהבעיה. אם אין לך מה לתרום חוץ מרעל, אתה לא חייב לתרום כלום. זה לא מקדם ולא משפר. On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 16:07, Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.eduwrote: Oh yes, for sure. And not only that -- it will also make the PA realize that they should stop torturing and executing gay people, and they'll stop publishing children's schoolbooks that refer to Jews as the sons of pigs and monkeys who must all be killed. Furthermore, I expect that as soon as Hamas realizes that we are turning the other cheek to Richard Stallman, they will immediately renounce terrorism, stop launching rockets at us, and release Gilad Shalit. And Hassan Nasrallah will be suddenly filled with a warm, fuzzy feeling of brotherly love, and he'll come out of his bunker and join together with us in Jerusalem in singing Kumbaya... 2011/5/29 Tomer Cohen tom...@gmail.com גם אני חושב שכדאי לרתום את התקרית הזאת לטובתנו, ולהציג את קהילת התוכנה החופשית בארץ כשוחרי שלום ואוהבי הזולת, ולשים את הדעות הפוליטיות שלנו בצד. כתוצאה מכך לא רק שאנחנו נצא טוב, אלא שגם אותם אנשים שחשבו שזה ליגיטימי לקבוע לאדם היכן מותר לו לדבר והיכן אסור עשויים להבין מכך את גודל הטעות שהם עושים. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
You know, I had thought of saying pretty much the same thing to you. But I didn't, because I respect and honor your right to free speech... 2011/5/29 Ira Abramov hama...@ira.abramov.org אם אין לך מה לתרום חוץ מרעל, אתה לא חייב לתרום כלום. זה לא מקדם ולא משפר. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
האמת, שלסטולמן הרבה יותר נוח עם הפלסטינים כי הוא יוכל להוריד שם את הנעליים חופשי. רם און On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.eduwrote: You know, I had thought of saying pretty much the same thing to you. But I didn't, because I respect and honor your right to free speech... 2011/5/29 Ira Abramov hama...@ira.abramov.org אם אין לך מה לתרום חוץ מרעל, אתה לא חייב לתרום כלום. זה לא מקדם ולא משפר. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
On Sun, May 29, 2011, Gabor Szabo wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: But again, I doubt that the real reason the Palestinians wanted him to skip Israel is the money. Obviously, I don't think the reason why the *Palestinians* wanted him to skip Israel was the money - the reason is that they, believe it or not, don't like us. But I do think, however, that the reason why *Stallman* is skipping Israel *is* the money, not that he doesn't like us. Perhaps the problem can be made clear by a similar (and completely hypothetical) situation, but without all the heated patriotism of both sides: Imagine that Cellcom and Orange are two Israeli companies in bitter competition. One day Cellcom invites Richard Stallman for giving a talk in Cellcom's HQ, paying for his flight, hotel, and other expenses. Orange hear this, and smell an oportunity: They can invite Stallman for free (or almost free), because his flight is already paid for, and Orange's HQ is just a few miles from Cellcom's! So Orange does invite Stallman, and Stallman accepts. A while later, Cellcom discovers that Stallman will also visit Orange, and are furious: Stallman is flying on their invitation, on their expense, and their bitter enemy Orange will benefit from his presence? No way, Jose! Cellcom quickly write Stallman a demand: If do don't cancel your plans to also visit Orange, you are no longer welcome to visit us. And of course, we won't pay for the trip. Stallman doesn't like the situation, but doesn't have many options: He understands why Cellcom doesn't want to benefit Orange (although he has no personal grudge against either Cellcom or Orange), and he *did* promise Cellcom first to visit them. Moreover, Orange never offered to finance his trip, so if he doesn't take the money from Cellcom, he won't be able to visit neither of them. I think when you use the words Cellcom and Orange, it becomes clearer that Stallman isn't evil here, and didn't make any unreasonable decision. He found himself wedged between two bitter enemies, between a proverbial rock and a hard place. Finding himself in this situation doesn't make him evil, any more than it makes him a saint. And even if Stallman were this evil, Israel-hating radical like other people quickly judged him to be, it certainly doesn't reflect anything on the free software movement as a whole - any more than quirks in Albert Einstein's personality or personal life reflect on the importance or success of his theory, or physics as a whole. Nadav. -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, May 29 2011, 25 Iyyar 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Why do we drive on a parkway and park on http://nadav.harel.org.il |a driveway? ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
אבל כאן לא מדובר על יריבות מסחרית, וסטולמן לא טמבל נאיבי. הוא משליך הצידה הזדמנות לשתפ בלי להסביר או לפרט. לא ביקש מישראליים להשתתף, לא אומר אם הוא הציע את זה אפילו לפלסטינים. אני מבין למה אנשים נעלמים מזה. אם רק היה מוסיף חצי משפט שהוא ניסה להגיע להגיע לפשרה לפני שהגיע להחלטה, או שההחלטה לא קלה לו, היה יותר ברור מה קרה פה. אני וחושב שבצורה שהוא שלח את החדשות לאדי זה היה קצת עני בפרטים לגבי כוונות ואופציות לשינוי המצב, וזה מה שגורם פה לכל הויכוח. לכן ביקשתי שלא נצא בהכרזות לפני שקיבלנו עוד מידע. אני שלחתי לו דואל, גיא שפר שלח, אדי ענה לו ועוד לא ברור לנו מה דעתו על התשובה שלו, ואולי עוד כמה מהקוראים פה פנו אליו בלי לספר לקהילה. אני מחכה לפני שאחליט מה קרה פה ועל מי אני כועס. עירא. On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 16:49, Nadav Har'El n...@math.technion.ac.il wrote: I think when you use the words Cellcom and Orange, it becomes clearer that Stallman isn't evil here, and didn't make any unreasonable decision. He found himself wedged between two bitter enemies, between a proverbial rock and a hard place. Finding himself in this situation doesn't make him evil, any more than it makes him a saint. And even if Stallman were this evil, Israel-hating radical like other people quickly judged him to be, it certainly doesn't reflect anything on the free software movement as a whole - any more than quirks in Albert Einstein's personality or personal life reflect on the importance or success of his theory, or physics as a whole. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Palestinian pressure causes Linux founder to cancel Israel visit http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000649786fid=1725 What can I say. Linux founder Gabor ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Morons. RTFW (Read the Fucking Wikipedia). Lior On May 29, 2011, at 4:03 PM, Gabor Szabo wrote: Palestinian pressure causes Linux founder to cancel Israel visit http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000649786fid=1725 What can I say. Linux founder Gabor ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions Lior Kesos l...@linnovate.net 0524-305252 http://www.linnovate.net ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Nadav: *And even if Stallman were this evil, Israel-hating radical like other people quickly judged him to be, it certainly doesn't reflect anything on the free software movement as a whole...* While I disagree with much of the rest of your analysis, I certainly agree with that part 100%. It would be a terrible mistake to conflate Stallman's political views with the whole of the free software movement, which certainly does not deserve to be besmirched by association. I would even go further than that: I note that Stallman is more than a little bit of a fruitcake, and a great many things that he says do not reflect the views of the majority of members of the free software movment. (Examples that come to mind are his tirades against the Open Source movement, against usage of the name Linux or even Penguin, and his general insistence that the rest of the world conform to his own bizarre, personally-invented lexicon of Politically Correct terminology...) Moshe On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Nadav Har'El n...@math.technion.ac.ilwrote: On Sun, May 29, 2011, Gabor Szabo wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: But again, I doubt that the real reason the Palestinians wanted him to skip Israel is the money. Obviously, I don't think the reason why the *Palestinians* wanted him to skip Israel was the money - the reason is that they, believe it or not, don't like us. But I do think, however, that the reason why *Stallman* is skipping Israel *is* the money, not that he doesn't like us. Perhaps the problem can be made clear by a similar (and completely hypothetical) situation, but without all the heated patriotism of both sides: Imagine that Cellcom and Orange are two Israeli companies in bitter competition. One day Cellcom invites Richard Stallman for giving a talk in Cellcom's HQ, paying for his flight, hotel, and other expenses. Orange hear this, and smell an oportunity: They can invite Stallman for free (or almost free), because his flight is already paid for, and Orange's HQ is just a few miles from Cellcom's! So Orange does invite Stallman, and Stallman accepts. A while later, Cellcom discovers that Stallman will also visit Orange, and are furious: Stallman is flying on their invitation, on their expense, and their bitter enemy Orange will benefit from his presence? No way, Jose! Cellcom quickly write Stallman a demand: If do don't cancel your plans to also visit Orange, you are no longer welcome to visit us. And of course, we won't pay for the trip. Stallman doesn't like the situation, but doesn't have many options: He understands why Cellcom doesn't want to benefit Orange (although he has no personal grudge against either Cellcom or Orange), and he *did* promise Cellcom first to visit them. Moreover, Orange never offered to finance his trip, so if he doesn't take the money from Cellcom, he won't be able to visit neither of them. I think when you use the words Cellcom and Orange, it becomes clearer that Stallman isn't evil here, and didn't make any unreasonable decision. He found himself wedged between two bitter enemies, between a proverbial rock and a hard place. Finding himself in this situation doesn't make him evil, any more than it makes him a saint. And even if Stallman were this evil, Israel-hating radical like other people quickly judged him to be, it certainly doesn't reflect anything on the free software movement as a whole - any more than quirks in Albert Einstein's personality or personal life reflect on the importance or success of his theory, or physics as a whole. Nadav. -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, May 29 2011, 25 Iyyar 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Why do we drive on a parkway and park on http://nadav.harel.org.il |a driveway? ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
This is the reply that arrived. FYI -Original Message- From: Richard Stallman [mailto:r...@gnu.org] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 5:21 PM To: Edward Aronovich Subject: Re: I have to cancel the speeches at universities However, personally I start to doubt your truthfulness about freedom. Boycotting the Israeli Universities since you get funds from Palestinians means that you accepted the Palestinians proprietary license. To criticize my actions is anyone's right. However, what you are doing is stretching my views into something else (which didn't come from me) and claiming that makes me a liar. That is not valid. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Sure, just like Obama's refusal to show his birth certificate was proof that he's a secret Muslim Kenyan communist. It speaks VOLUMES to people who prefer the voices in their heads, or look for conspiracy theories everywhere, or more likely just trying to build a straw man argument. Either way, you are jumping the gun. However, I suggested we wait and not pass judgement until we get more input from him. As I said, I have approached him, informed him that this is quickly blowing out of proportions, and suggested he delivers a slightly more detailed explanation than his laconic message yesterday. I am not saying you are wrong, I'm saying you are over-blowing this. It would take Glen Beck at least another week before he would call RMS a suicide bomber, but at your rate it would take you less than 24 hours. Cool down. let the man explain himself before you continue the smears. To criticize my actions is anyone's right. However, what you are doing is stretching my views into something else (which didn't come from me) and claiming that makes me a liar. That is not valid. Eddie got his reply it seems. I hope he'll reply to the rest of us soon. Ira 2011/5/29 Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.edu But in point of fact, he did *not* add any such statement. And that omission speaks volumes. 2011/5/29 Ira Abramov hama...@ira.abramov.org אם רק היה מוסיף חצי משפט שהוא ניסה להגיע להגיע לפשרה לפני שהגיע להחלטה, או שההחלטה לא קלה לו, היה יותר ברור מה קרה פה. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
How amusing. If I didn't know who wrote the statement below, I might venture a guess that it was a reply by Bill Gates to an attack by Richard Stallman... :-) Moshe On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Edward Aronovich edd...@tau.ac.il wrote: This is the reply that arrived. FYI -Original Message- From: Richard Stallman [mailto:r...@gnu.org] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 5:21 PM To: Edward Aronovich Subject: Re: I have to cancel the speeches at universities However, personally I start to doubt your truthfulness about freedom. Boycotting the Israeli Universities since you get funds from Palestinians means that you accepted the Palestinians proprietary license. To criticize my actions is anyone's right. However, what you are doing is stretching my views into something else (which didn't come from me) and claiming that makes me a liar. That is not valid. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Ira: One can hardly help but notice that in his reply to Eddie, Stallman once again passed up the opportunity to add your missing half sentence about how much he really wanted to find a compromise instead, and how terribly difficult the decision was for him to make. But I have no doubt that must be what he was thinking... Moshe On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Ira Abramov hama...@ira.abramov.orgwrote: Sure, just like Obama's refusal to show his birth certificate was proof that he's a secret Muslim Kenyan communist. It speaks VOLUMES to people who prefer the voices in their heads, or look for conspiracy theories everywhere, or more likely just trying to build a straw man argument. Either way, you are jumping the gun. However, I suggested we wait and not pass judgement until we get more input from him. As I said, I have approached him, informed him that this is quickly blowing out of proportions, and suggested he delivers a slightly more detailed explanation than his laconic message yesterday. I am not saying you are wrong, I'm saying you are over-blowing this. It would take Glen Beck at least another week before he would call RMS a suicide bomber, but at your rate it would take you less than 24 hours. Cool down. let the man explain himself before you continue the smears. To criticize my actions is anyone's right. However, what you are doing is stretching my views into something else (which didn't come from me) and claiming that makes me a liar. That is not valid. Eddie got his reply it seems. I hope he'll reply to the rest of us soon. Ira 2011/5/29 Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.edu But in point of fact, he did *not* add any such statement. And that omission speaks volumes. 2011/5/29 Ira Abramov hama...@ira.abramov.org אם רק היה מוסיף חצי משפט שהוא ניסה להגיע להגיע לפשרה לפני שהגיע להחלטה, או שההחלטה לא קלה לו, היה יותר ברור מה קרה פה. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
As I said, his short, ambiguous replies are indeed odd, however don't forget that Eddie attacked him, so the defensive reply is not surprising. I still hope for a more detailed reply to my Email. I toned it very differently. If he barks a short reply to me as well, I will admit I was too much of an optimist. I'll leave the gloating to you at that point, I'm sure you won't need encouragement either. On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 17:44, Moshe Z. Matitya mos...@alumnimail.yu.eduwrote: Ira: One can hardly help but notice that in his reply to Eddie, Stallman once again passed up the opportunity to add your missing half sentence about how much he really wanted to find a compromise instead, and how terribly difficult the decision was for him to make. But I have no doubt that must be what he was thinking... ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
There are few things which break the analogy. 1. Israeli academic institutions are now at war against forces which try to promote academic boycott on Israel. The nearest analogy is an international attempt to cut peering agreements with Orange just because they are orange-ginger and we are Europeans who abhor gingerism (http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/2007/06/07/it-must-be-a-monty-python-skit/). 2. We do not know how many lectures and workshops is Stallman supposed to deliver in Palestine. Probably much more than three and possibly longer. So Stallman's visit to Israel might be just a short diversion. If the Palestinians are so cash strapped (due to their support of families of suicide bombers) they can't cover 20% of the cost corresponding to the 20% of time that Stallman planned to spend in Israel, then Stallman could ask his Israeli hosts to find a monetary solution to the problem. 3. The companies in the example are competitors, not enemies. This is not the situation between Israel and Palestine. The following does not break the analogy but puts things in perspective. 4. This kind of side tours is usually reciprocal. Some people come to lecture in Israel and hop over to visit Palestine, just as other people come to Palestine and visit Israel briefly. No side should begrudge such short visits. That is if both sides have peaceful intentions. If today Cellcom invites Stallman, then tomorrow Orange might invite Linus. And both visitors should be welcome to visit also the other company at this opportunity. In summary: Stallman may not be evil, but he is under suspicion because there is no evidence that he explored all possible options before cancelling his lectures in Israel, and given the context and timing of cancellation (after Bibi Netanyahu exposed the real agenda of the Palestinians). --- Omer On Sun, 2011-05-29 at 16:49 +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, May 29, 2011, Gabor Szabo wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: But again, I doubt that the real reason the Palestinians wanted him to skip Israel is the money. Obviously, I don't think the reason why the *Palestinians* wanted him to skip Israel was the money - the reason is that they, believe it or not, don't like us. But I do think, however, that the reason why *Stallman* is skipping Israel *is* the money, not that he doesn't like us. Perhaps the problem can be made clear by a similar (and completely hypothetical) situation, but without all the heated patriotism of both sides: Imagine that Cellcom and Orange are two Israeli companies in bitter competition. One day Cellcom invites Richard Stallman for giving a talk in Cellcom's HQ, paying for his flight, hotel, and other expenses. Orange hear this, and smell an oportunity: They can invite Stallman for free (or almost free), because his flight is already paid for, and Orange's HQ is just a few miles from Cellcom's! So Orange does invite Stallman, and Stallman accepts. A while later, Cellcom discovers that Stallman will also visit Orange, and are furious: Stallman is flying on their invitation, on their expense, and their bitter enemy Orange will benefit from his presence? No way, Jose! Cellcom quickly write Stallman a demand: If do don't cancel your plans to also visit Orange, you are no longer welcome to visit us. And of course, we won't pay for the trip. Stallman doesn't like the situation, but doesn't have many options: He understands why Cellcom doesn't want to benefit Orange (although he has no personal grudge against either Cellcom or Orange), and he *did* promise Cellcom first to visit them. Moreover, Orange never offered to finance his trip, so if he doesn't take the money from Cellcom, he won't be able to visit neither of them. I think when you use the words Cellcom and Orange, it becomes clearer that Stallman isn't evil here, and didn't make any unreasonable decision. He found himself wedged between two bitter enemies, between a proverbial rock and a hard place. Finding himself in this situation doesn't make him evil, any more than it makes him a saint. And even if Stallman were this evil, Israel-hating radical like other people quickly judged him to be, it certainly doesn't reflect anything on the free software movement as a whole - any more than quirks in Albert Einstein's personality or personal life reflect on the importance or success of his theory, or physics as a whole. -- We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us. Golda Meir (Israeli Prime Minister between 1969-1974) My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html ___ Discussions mailing
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
I think the best solution is to talk to the Palestinians and see if we can work something out, perhaps participating in the travel cost, if we have the money. We can even publicize this as another step towards peace and good will among the children. It would be interesting to ask RMS whether, if we matched the Palestinians and added $1, he would cancel his planned speeches and would only speak in Israel. And while we are at it, if we threw in another $100, would he be willing to accept the name August Penguin or MS Free Lecture instead of whatever crap he insisted on. After all, to paraphrase the famous author whose name escapes me now, we have already established that he is a (media) whore, now we are negotiating the price. I neither know nor care whether RMS is pro or anti Israel, but he proved himself a complete idiot by his bungling of this whole affair. First, if someone sponsors you with cash, you should ask their permission before you volunteer your services to their competitors/enemies/anyone else. There is value in exclusivity and it is not surprising if his hosts demand it, and even if they don't, it is common courtesy to ask first. Second, if he already bit the hand that fed him, and now has to recant, he could have handled it more sensitively, starting by taking some of the blame for the fuck up. He now has involved himself with a political storm that will do little to help the open source community. It plays into the hands of anyone who wants to blame OSS of antisemitism to gain a marketing edge. Finally, these relics who still make money from their actions 30 years ago remind me of the 60's bands that still tour - they are nice for nostalgia, but not for music or talent (with very few exceptions). So maybe this is good riddance - one less idiot to idolize. Z. On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Omer Zak w...@zak.co.il wrote: There are few things which break the analogy. 1. Israeli academic institutions are now at war against forces which try to promote academic boycott on Israel. The nearest analogy is an international attempt to cut peering agreements with Orange just because they are orange-ginger and we are Europeans who abhor gingerism ( http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/2007/06/07/it-must-be-a-monty-python-skit/ ). 2. We do not know how many lectures and workshops is Stallman supposed to deliver in Palestine. Probably much more than three and possibly longer. So Stallman's visit to Israel might be just a short diversion. If the Palestinians are so cash strapped (due to their support of families of suicide bombers) they can't cover 20% of the cost corresponding to the 20% of time that Stallman planned to spend in Israel, then Stallman could ask his Israeli hosts to find a monetary solution to the problem. 3. The companies in the example are competitors, not enemies. This is not the situation between Israel and Palestine. The following does not break the analogy but puts things in perspective. 4. This kind of side tours is usually reciprocal. Some people come to lecture in Israel and hop over to visit Palestine, just as other people come to Palestine and visit Israel briefly. No side should begrudge such short visits. That is if both sides have peaceful intentions. If today Cellcom invites Stallman, then tomorrow Orange might invite Linus. And both visitors should be welcome to visit also the other company at this opportunity. In summary: Stallman may not be evil, but he is under suspicion because there is no evidence that he explored all possible options before cancelling his lectures in Israel, and given the context and timing of cancellation (after Bibi Netanyahu exposed the real agenda of the Palestinians). --- Omer On Sun, 2011-05-29 at 16:49 +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, May 29, 2011, Gabor Szabo wrote about Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities: But again, I doubt that the real reason the Palestinians wanted him to skip Israel is the money. Obviously, I don't think the reason why the *Palestinians* wanted him to skip Israel was the money - the reason is that they, believe it or not, don't like us. But I do think, however, that the reason why *Stallman* is skipping Israel *is* the money, not that he doesn't like us. Perhaps the problem can be made clear by a similar (and completely hypothetical) situation, but without all the heated patriotism of both sides: Imagine that Cellcom and Orange are two Israeli companies in bitter competition. One day Cellcom invites Richard Stallman for giving a talk in Cellcom's HQ, paying for his flight, hotel, and other expenses. Orange hear this, and smell an oportunity: They can invite Stallman for free (or almost free), because his flight is already paid for, and Orange's HQ is just a few miles from Cellcom's! So Orange does invite Stallman, and Stallman accepts. A while later, Cellcom discovers that Stallman will also
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
I'm pretty suree RMS' reply bounced so here I am quoting it for all of you. he sent me a longer reply in person and they both confirm what I thought - he's more interested in fulfilling his original obligation and use it for promoting collaboration. Moreover, he says the ban imposed on him is NOT Israel in its entirety, but only the Universities (the private Shenkar College seems kosher according to him). The weird but sensible thing to do is find lecture halls outside the universities and there would be no conflict. I think there are now several people in the readers who should marinade their hats for making this a bigger political issue than it really is. I'll be posting his personal replies to me in my blog later, and sending them to the papers. On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 07:36, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: I saw that you sent an E-mail message canceling all of your talks in Israel= in the upcoming visit. Not all of them -- only the ones at universities. It is the universities that the funders object to. I have one planned talk which is not at a university, which I still plan to give. I will forward your message to them. I hope you can indeed work something out, because cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians is good. Another possible approach is to find other venues for the other talks I was going to give in Israel. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Steve G.: *He now has involved himself with a political storm that will do little to help the open source community. * That isn't something that's likely to disturb Stallman. He very much dislikes the Open Source community (it is a watered-down alternative to free software in his juvenile terminological dogma), and he consistently says negative things about it. Moshe ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
In other words, Stallman's cancellation of speeches in Israeli universities is indeed a victory in the worldwide attempt to promote academic boycott of Israel. I understand that it is a battle which can be won by means of some money. So let's arrange funding for Stallman's trip to our area to replace Palestinian funds, and without the kind of strings that the Palestinians attached to their funds. Where to send my 100NIS contribution? --- Omer Zak On Mon, 2011-05-30 at 08:02 +0300, Ira Abramov wrote: I'm pretty suree RMS' reply bounced so here I am quoting it for all of you. he sent me a longer reply in person and they both confirm what I thought - he's more interested in fulfilling his original obligation and use it for promoting collaboration. Moreover, he says the ban imposed on him is NOT Israel in its entirety, but only the Universities (the private Shenkar College seems kosher according to him). The weird but sensible thing to do is find lecture halls outside the universities and there would be no conflict. I think there are now several people in the readers who should marinade their hats for making this a bigger political issue than it really is. I'll be posting his personal replies to me in my blog later, and sending them to the papers. On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 07:36, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: I saw that you sent an E-mail message canceling all of your talks in Israel= in the upcoming visit. Not all of them -- only the ones at universities. It is the universities that the funders object to. I have one planned talk which is not at a university, which I still plan to give. I will forward your message to them. I hope you can indeed work something out, because cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians is good. Another possible approach is to find other venues for the other talks I was going to give in Israel. -- Linux Mint is insecure by design as it won't accept contributions (bug reports) from Israelis who choose to defend themselves against suicide bombers: http://eclelef.blogspot.com/2009/05/palestine_03.html My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
Ira Abramov: *The weird but sensible thing to do is find lecture halls outside the universities and there would be no conflict.* Yes, let's see how weird we can get and how much we can contort ourselves to accomodate the academic boycott of Israel. Perhaps we should also make sure that there are no Israeli flags visible at the site where he speaks... Moshe ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: FW: I have to cancel the speeches at universities
I thought we found a nice resolution here - RMS *wants* to speak in Israel, he explained how we can go about it, he's still going to give talks at the Palestinian venues and I bet he will use those to educate them about how academic boycotting is a bad thing. He can't possibly gain anything by saying now that he won't support academic boycotts, because then his trip may be canceled. Stop calling it selling his soul, he's doing the correct, pragmatic thing! Now can we please all grow up and stop dragging this discussion into the local politics? Our goal should be to find new halls now and show that free software's ideas are beyond the local problems of one region or another, or we are no better than his Palestinian hosts or the people of Mint that Omer keeps reminding us of in his signature. On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 08:40, E L nak...@gmail.com wrote: Says who? No one asked him if he is willing to lecture in Israel for money, you are just assuming that. I'm pretty sure he will find some other excuse. Probably they wont agree to share expenses with Israelis. Or threaten him to chose either the PA or Israel. One thing is sure, a lot less people will want to hear him anyhow, who wants to hear a freedom activist that sell his soul for money? Ely On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Omer Zak w...@zak.co.il wrote: In other words, Stallman's cancellation of speeches in Israeli universities is indeed a victory in the worldwide attempt to promote academic boycott of Israel. I understand that it is a battle which can be won by means of some money. So let's arrange funding for Stallman's trip to our area to replace Palestinian funds, and without the kind of strings that the Palestinians attached to their funds. Where to send my 100NIS contribution? --- Omer Zak On Mon, 2011-05-30 at 08:02 +0300, Ira Abramov wrote: I'm pretty suree RMS' reply bounced so here I am quoting it for all of you. he sent me a longer reply in person and they both confirm what I thought - he's more interested in fulfilling his original obligation and use it for promoting collaboration. Moreover, he says the ban imposed on him is NOT Israel in its entirety, but only the Universities (the private Shenkar College seems kosher according to him). The weird but sensible thing to do is find lecture halls outside the universities and there would be no conflict. I think there are now several people in the readers who should marinade their hats for making this a bigger political issue than it really is. I'll be posting his personal replies to me in my blog later, and sending them to the papers. On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 07:36, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: I saw that you sent an E-mail message canceling all of your talks in Israel= in the upcoming visit. Not all of them -- only the ones at universities. It is the universities that the funders object to. I have one planned talk which is not at a university, which I still plan to give. I will forward your message to them. I hope you can indeed work something out, because cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians is good. Another possible approach is to find other venues for the other talks I was going to give in Israel. -- Linux Mint is insecure by design as it won't accept contributions (bug reports) from Israelis who choose to defend themselves against suicide bombers: http://eclelef.blogspot.com/2009/05/palestine_03.html My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
