Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Mitt Green]

‎Wow, this made a big impact! Thank you very much everyone,
Your experience is valuable and appreciated.

Cheers,
                  
                  Mitt 
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Mitt Green]

Thanks, that's exactly.

I've met some people at local Linux meet, some of them
have 20 year experience, yet they don't know
that if you have a problem you can write to a mailing list.
The same dude, by the way, said that he doesn't like
sysvinit and systemd is easier and solves these problems.
Which problems, he didn't point out.

I mean, that's something normal, neither years in the field
nor degree won't make you smart and experienced
(years are not equal to experience) alone, something
has to be inside your skull.

I believe that skills should be more important in the industry.
A man at our local gym once approached me (after
an occasional talk about languages) and said that his
small firm (well, not *his* really, he works there) needs
good programmers and added that degree doesn't matter.
He added that it's hard to find *good* developers
and those Bachelors are not always *good*. But, of course,
if a man has a paper with his name on it, saying
"look, I spent four years at the university, I must be
knowing something!" then it's a good thing which
powers-up your portfolio. But alone a paper shouldn't be
*that* important.

My 0.02

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Jude Nelson]

> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?

Forgot to mention--my local LUG was often attended by people from local
software development firms, ISPs, and IT departments.  If you're not a
member of a LUG yet (or some other computer-related club), signing up for
one and getting to know these people is a good way to get a professional
network started :)  They can also help guide you on your future career
choices, and even help you get jobs with them.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Jude Nelson  wrote:

> Hi Mitt,
>
> Questions:
>> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
>>
>
> Most software engineers I know have at least a minor in computer science,
> but have at least a BS or BA in some engineering discipline if they don't
> have a BS/BA in computer science.  I have met a few really proficient
> self-taught developers, but they are the exception, and they almost always
> had a leg-up from someone else.  Every large company I have worked for
> required a degree from its software engineers.
>
>
>> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
>>
>
> Anyone you can convince to hire you :)  I'd go for start-ups and smaller
> shops, since the hiring processes there probably won't be so impersonal as
> to automatically ignore your application simply for lack of a degree.
> Smaller shops will ask to see a portfolio of previous work (like the stuff
> on your github), or ask you to do a small week-long project with some of
> the other employees in order to judge how proficient you are when you're in
> your element.
>
>
>> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
>> coding?
>>
>> From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
>> obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
>> here (Unix, administration, hardware...).
>>
>
> I've had experiences writing software both with and without a formal
> education.  I'm of the opinion that if you go to university in order to
> acquire a formal background in computer science, then it's worth every
> penny.  This is because a formal background helps you understand both
> theory and practice from first principles.  Once you can understand it from
> first principles, it becomes a lot easier to pick up new skills, and makes
> it possible to design long-lasting low-maintenance software that won't need
> to be rewritten from scratch every few years.  It also gives you the
> ability to look at trends in the industry and tell the difference between
> what's fundamentally new, what's a passing fad, and what's snake-oil.  Of
> course, the mileage you get out of it depends on how thorough you were in
> making sure you understand all the material.
>
> If you instead want to focus more on learning specific skills, you might
> want to consider going to a community college and getting your associate
> degree.  It's a lot less expensive than university, and faculty usually
> come from an industrial background and can share their real-world
> experiences with you.  There will almost always be more hands-on courses
> available than at university, such as on things like systems
> administration, Unix, mobile app development, game development, and
> preparation classes for particular certifications.  One nice thing about
> community college is that if you decide later that you want to go on to
> university, most universities will accept some/all of the credits you
> earned at your community college (but double-check this first!).  For
> example, both of my parents and my brother got their bachelor degrees by
> doing two years at community college and two years at university.
>
> If you do go the university route, you should go to a non-profit,
> regionally-accredited one [1], and if at all possible, you should
> physically attend (even if it means a long commute).  Also, you'd be amazed
> at how many scholarships go unclaimed each year.
>
> -Jude
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation
>
>
>> Thanks for any kind of information,
>>
>> Mitt
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>
>
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Re: [DNG] devuan-baseconf package versions and repositories

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi Vicenta,

Can you please file an issue report against devuan-baseconf against that 
project in devuans gitlab?


https://git.devuan.org/packages-base/devuan-baseconf/issues

Thanks,
Daniel

On 13/11/15 06:03, Vicente Vera wrote:

Hello,

Before trying out Devuan I was perusing each devuan-baseconf version
and found out that they differ on which Devuan repository gets written
by default to sources.list.

This is relevant if you're upgrading to Devuan from Debian Wheezy (oldstable).

If you're running Debian stable, testing or unstable, then
sources.list gets updated to the corresponding Devuan repository. BUT
if you're running Wheezy, then the package's default repository gets
set:

0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie
0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii
0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres

So to upgrade Wheezy, devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb should be
installed. This way it isn't needed to modify sources.list again,
manually.

I was about to install 0.6.4+devuan3 because 3>1 ;)

AFAIK this hasn't been documented elsewhere?
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021 797 722
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Dima Krasner]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:02:28 + (UTC)
Mitt Green  wrote:

> Let's imagine: a guy is writing some open-source software, places it on 
> GitHub or somewhere else,
> a firm then comes up and say "hmm, we need a specialist like that, let's 
> write an email to him".
> 
> Or the same guy writes the same stuff and one day he starts thinking "hmm, 
> let me send
> the stuff I do to $company_name". And they then hire him.

Exactly what I did.

I receive job offers all the time, based on my online (personal homepage, 
GitHub, LinkedIn, etc') portfolio, although I don't have any certificates 
hanging nicely on the wall. There's a shortage of developers in my country, the 
so-called startup nation, mainly because of the cyber security startup 
companies that emerged in the last 5 years or so. Moreover, for some cultural 
reason, it's rare to see free software/open source software/Linux developers 
here, especially experienced ones, so it's a strong point.

I do software development (without any academic certifications, I'm a strict 
autodidact - a "hobbyist") for living and study for BA in philosophy and 
education in my spare time and during my daily commute. My areas of expertise 
are low-level/system programming (C, mostly) across *nix platforms, porting and 
distro development, things I got involved with at a young age, without any 
knowledge and out of sheer curiosity. When I grew older, I realized I did the 
right thing, because university does not teach those things.

I study mainly for fun, because I'm curious and generally, a nonconforming 
person. I think you don't *need* an academic degree to work in the software 
industry (although it's definitely something I recommend, because you don't 
want to get fired just because you're the only worker in your team without 
one), for three main reasons:
1) Many parts of the software engineering/computer sciences curriculum are 
(boring,) completely outdated and irrelevant. Most people don't actually use 
their academic knowledge in algebra, compiler theory and Lisp, while proper use 
of data structure and basic understanding of efficiency (even without the 
mathematical background) are extremely useful. Having a degree in CS is a 
strict requirement in many companies in my country, but most security startups 
are more than willing to hire those who have nothing but prior experience. In 
fact, some companies even encourage people to quit their studies, so they can 
work more, but that's a different story.
2) Sometimes, gaining a deeper insight into some subject may harm your 
practical skills in that field, because of the way the subject is taught 
(top-to-bottom, bottom-to-top, etc') and experienced. I've worked with many 
(bright) people with a master's degree in CS, who had trouble in day-to-day 
situations. Instead of googling "general purpose compression library" or doing 
man -k compress, they would prefer to implement trivial RLE, Deflate or another 
algorithm they know by name only, through university (leveraging their 
amazingly limited experience in C, of course). I was surprised to see that 
their problem solving skills, horizontal knowledge (i.e confusion and 
embarrassment when someone else used terms like "GCC", "Clang", "JIT", "inline" 
or "strip" in a conversation about compilers), familiarity with geek/hacker 
culture (i.e even trivial things being aware of Distrowatch, LWN or glibc) and 
ability to think creatively were *so* limited compared to those of my 
autodidact colleagues. I'm not saying that's the norm - this could be only a 
local problem, but it proves my point: some people with great potential that 
enter the academia lose something along the way.
3) Of course, getting that degree requires time, money, hard work, dedication 
and sacrifice, especially if you intend to work (even in a part-time job) 
during these years. Also, you'll need motivation. Many friends of mine decided 
to quit their studies because they realized they *already have* a good salary 
in a nice company, a nice car, somewhere to live, etc'. That's the best way to 
lose motivation, so I decided not to suffer: just study the subject that 
interests me the most, even if won't bring good any job opportunities in the 
future.

I hope you find my point of view interesting.

Dima

-- 
Dima Krasner 

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[DNG] greybeards

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:54:37PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
> Mitt Green  wrote:
> 
> > ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since
> > 90s or the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
> > and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
> > most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
> > a right to vote.
> 
> :s/greybeards/experienced people having a clue/
> 
> I'm not saying the following in anger. I'm simply saying it so we don't
> accidentally shoot ourselves in the foot...
> 
> "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose connotation
> is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, no
> longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has *especially* come to
> the forefront during the systemd foolishness.
> 
> Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
> "old people", and give credence to the belief that old people can't
> code, can't tech, should be put out to pasture. It's this very belief
> that motivates organizations to refuse to hire those over 50,
> regardless of past or current accomplishments, going so far as to pay a
> premium to offshore rent-a-programmers rather than snagging one of the
> glut of skilled over 50 technologists.
> 
> We should leave words like "greybeard", "neckbeard", and "afraid of
> change" to the debian-user mailing list.
> 
> Last but not least: The first body text currently on http://devuan.org
> says:
> 
> "Dear Init Freedom lovers, the Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes
> you!"
> 
> THAT'S how experience is best portrayed.

there's also a tradition, centuries old, that an oppressed people take 
the insulting names that the oppressors call them and use them as marks 
of pride, but the oppressed use those names to rally around when 
creating a protest movement, sonetimes successful, sometimes not.

I donn't mind being a greybeard, by the way.  I was impressed by the 
powerful aged, greybearded sorcerers in the fantasy literature I read in 
the 50's.  I too am one now.  Well, it's slowly turning white from grey.  
Occasionally near Christmastime litle children recognise me as Pere 
Noel.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Hendrik Boom]

I thought I should mention, before the towel is irretrievably lost, that 
you'd probably find a welcome in the devuan project.  We tend to 
respect developers.  I thnk you'd find a devuan live CD more to your 
liking, given current politics.  I'll follow with a recent post 
on the devuan mailing list.

I've CC'd the devuan mailing list.  Devuan is on its way to be the new 
upstream that is what Debian once was.

--hendrik

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 02:50:27AM +, 
Go Linux wrote:
> On Wed, 11/11/15, Wim  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?
>  To: Dng@lists.dyne.org
>  Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 8:34 PM
>  
>  Hi,
>  
>  This popped up:
>  https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2015/11/msg00024.html
>  
>  Another dev throws in the towel under pressure.
>  The list of downstream distro's is long...
>  Cheers,
>  Wim
> 
> 
> 
> This from the discussion on the refracta forum:
> 
> "Refracta Snapshot, Refracta live images and most Debian "variants" exist 
> thanks to Debian Live, which was actually designed and maintained to support 
> such flexibility.
> 
> Maybe that's what the mainstream Debian (quote) "Cabal" doesn't like."
> 
> I think Devuan should offer this project a new home where their work would be 
> appreciated and respected.  :)
> 
> golinux
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Re: [DNG] Distros using Devuan as their base

[Brian Nash]

There is "antiX": 

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 02:11:23PM -, dev1fanboy wrote:
>So far I've noticed there are two distros using Devuan as their base,
> 
>refracta and exe gnu/linux
> 
>Are there others anyone is aware of at the moment?
> 
>Thanks,
> 
>dev1fanboy
> 
>--
> 
>Take back your privacy. Switch to [1]StartMail.com
> 
> References
> 
>Visible links
>1. https://www.startmail.com/

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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Jude Nelson]

Hi Mitt,

Questions:
> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
>

Most software engineers I know have at least a minor in computer science,
but have at least a BS or BA in some engineering discipline if they don't
have a BS/BA in computer science.  I have met a few really proficient
self-taught developers, but they are the exception, and they almost always
had a leg-up from someone else.  Every large company I have worked for
required a degree from its software engineers.


> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
>

Anyone you can convince to hire you :)  I'd go for start-ups and smaller
shops, since the hiring processes there probably won't be so impersonal as
to automatically ignore your application simply for lack of a degree.
Smaller shops will ask to see a portfolio of previous work (like the stuff
on your github), or ask you to do a small week-long project with some of
the other employees in order to judge how proficient you are when you're in
your element.


> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
> coding?
>
> From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
> obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
> here (Unix, administration, hardware...).
>

I've had experiences writing software both with and without a formal
education.  I'm of the opinion that if you go to university in order to
acquire a formal background in computer science, then it's worth every
penny.  This is because a formal background helps you understand both
theory and practice from first principles.  Once you can understand it from
first principles, it becomes a lot easier to pick up new skills, and makes
it possible to design long-lasting low-maintenance software that won't need
to be rewritten from scratch every few years.  It also gives you the
ability to look at trends in the industry and tell the difference between
what's fundamentally new, what's a passing fad, and what's snake-oil.  Of
course, the mileage you get out of it depends on how thorough you were in
making sure you understand all the material.

If you instead want to focus more on learning specific skills, you might
want to consider going to a community college and getting your associate
degree.  It's a lot less expensive than university, and faculty usually
come from an industrial background and can share their real-world
experiences with you.  There will almost always be more hands-on courses
available than at university, such as on things like systems
administration, Unix, mobile app development, game development, and
preparation classes for particular certifications.  One nice thing about
community college is that if you decide later that you want to go on to
university, most universities will accept some/all of the credits you
earned at your community college (but double-check this first!).  For
example, both of my parents and my brother got their bachelor degrees by
doing two years at community college and two years at university.

If you do go the university route, you should go to a non-profit,
regionally-accredited one [1], and if at all possible, you should
physically attend (even if it means a long commute).  Also, you'd be amazed
at how many scholarships go unclaimed each year.

-Jude

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation


> Thanks for any kind of information,
>
> Mitt
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
> Mitt Green  wrote:

[...]

> :s/greybeards/experienced people having a clue/
>
> I'm not saying the following in anger. I'm simply saying it so we don't
> accidentally shoot ourselves in the foot...
>
> "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose connotation
> is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, no
> longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has *especially* come to
> the forefront during the systemd foolishness.
>
> Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
> "old people", and give credence to the belief that

[...]

If I may add my 0.02 kujambel[*] here: Just because someone sets a trap
for you doesn't mean you have to jump into it with both feet. Whatever
the discussion happened to be, common prejudices about "people with a
certain hair colour" were certainly not genuinlely related to it, IOW,
derogative allusions of this kind are meant to distract from the issue
under discussion in favour of "discussing" alleged character/
personality defects of the participiants, ideally provoking them to
become emotionally defensive so that the actual topic ends up being
buried by the noise made by people yelling at each other.

[*] German navy slang, ca. 1992, for "whatever the name of the foreign
currency of the day happens to be".
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Re: [DNG] devuan-baseconf package versions and repositories

[Vicente Vera]

Sure! Just created an account on GitLab, but somehow I can't access
git.devuan.org. I kind of don't know what I'm doing haha

2015-11-12 17:09 GMT-03:00 Daniel Reurich :
> Hi Vicenta,
>
> Can you please file an issue report against devuan-baseconf against that
> project in devuans gitlab?
>
> https://git.devuan.org/packages-base/devuan-baseconf/issues
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel
>
>
> On 13/11/15 06:03, Vicente Vera wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Before trying out Devuan I was perusing each devuan-baseconf version
>> and found out that they differ on which Devuan repository gets written
>> by default to sources.list.
>>
>> This is relevant if you're upgrading to Devuan from Debian Wheezy
>> (oldstable).
>>
>> If you're running Debian stable, testing or unstable, then
>> sources.list gets updated to the corresponding Devuan repository. BUT
>> if you're running Wheezy, then the package's default repository gets
>> set:
>>
>> 0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie
>> 0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii
>> 0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres
>>
>> So to upgrade Wheezy, devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb should be
>> installed. This way it isn't needed to modify sources.list again,
>> manually.
>>
>> I was about to install 0.6.4+devuan3 because 3>1 ;)
>>
>> AFAIK this hasn't been documented elsewhere?
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>
>
> --
> Daniel Reurich
> Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
> 021 797 722
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[DNG] OT: Degree?

[Mitt Green]

Hi everyone‎,

This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).

Questions:
1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
coding?

From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
here (Unix, administration, hardware...).

Thanks for any kind of information,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Edward Bartolo]

When I am faced with a situation where people try to emotionally
manipulate and distabilise others, one ugly question comes to my mind:
'As a species, have human beings really reached civility or are they
still living with a different form of the rule of the jungle?'

Edward

On 13/11/2015, Miles Fidelman  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/12/15 1:54 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
>> Mitt Green  wrote:
>>
>>> ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since
>>> 90s or the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
>>> and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
>>> most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
>>> a right to vote.
>> :s/greybeards/experienced people having a clue/
>>
>> I'm not saying the following in anger. I'm simply saying it so we don't
>> accidentally shoot ourselves in the foot...
>>
>> "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose connotation
>> is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, no
>> longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has *especially* come to
>> the forefront during the systemd foolishness.
>>
>> Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
>> "old people", and give credence to the belief that old people can't
>> code, can't tech, should be put out to pasture. It's this very belief
>> that motivates organizations to refuse to hire those over 50,
>> regardless of past or current accomplishments, going so far as to pay a
>> premium to offshore rent-a-programmers rather than snagging one of the
>> glut of skilled over 50 technologists.
>>
>>
> Hey... I resemble that remark.  I'm a greybeard and proud of it.  In my
> neck of the woods (networking) it's a mark of distinction, and a
> credential that's jealously guarded.  (I'm also 61, and just remember,
> 60 is the new 40.  Never had a problem getting hired - as I say,
> greybeard is a respected credential.)
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra
>
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Re: [DNG] Office pack

[Teodoro Santoni]

Hi,

Probably related to the thread is a new tool by Markus Teich, sent
[0], a killer app for powerpoint and libreoffice-powerpoint and
whatever else.

[0]: http://tools.suckless.org/sent
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[DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Emiliano Marini]

Interesting article from Richard Stallman.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html

It starts with:

*"For a software package to be free, all the code in it must be free. But
not only the code. Since documentation files including manuals, README,
change log, and so on are essential technical parts of a software package,
they must be free as well."*

And concludes with:

*"As new situations arise, the GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation
will adapt our freedom criteria so as to lead computer users towards
freedom, in practice and in principle."*

Maybe RSM has some concern about Red Hat, systemd and the new idea of
"freedom of code vs. freedom of developers"?

Cheers,
Emiliano.
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Mitt Green]

‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since 90s or
the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
a right to vote.

Debian is Fedora already, assuming Red Hat is taking control
of the whole system in a known way. Red Hat is 2010s Novell.

By the way, each time Fedora comes, I try LiveCD with it, GNOME3, Workstation
as they call it. Each time it fails, freezing in either boot stage, while 
copying
data, while doing usual tasks with GUI. Their package management is slow,
adding repositories is just painful. And finding stuff in GNOME3 is
ridiculous.

Some, such as NetBSD, still have GNOME2 in repositories (pkgsrc
in NetBSD case).

My two cents,

Mitt

‎-

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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Fernando M. Maresca]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:12:02PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
 
> From the day I arrived in Debianland, around 1/1/2014, Debian seemed to
> me to be, in the words of Lennart Poettering, "quite a sick place to be
> in.". Before I'd heard about systemd, I'd already /dev/nulled about 8
> Debianistas because of their uniform nasty response to everything. Then
> the civil war began.
> 
> Perhaps Debian was destined to be replaced anyway, systemd or no
> systemd.


I'm using Debian since '99 and although not involved as developer,
''ve been following -devel and -users and a couple more list pretty
close all these years (still am).

Since sometime circa 2010 or so the Debian developer community has been
more and more dominated by people with a strong sense of property over
the project and a marked disregard for others contributors. There is an
atmosphere of aggressiveness and do-it-my-way-or-get-out-of-my-lawn,
supposedly to increase Debian quality.

However, in those years Debian became more bloated, slow, complicated
and runs on less hardware than say, squeeze. It's sad that The Universal
Operating System is less universal release after release. Very sad. 

Iain Learmonth is a sociopath, but is very active and had invested many
hours into making himself a prominent DD; his aiming high in the project
and will probably be successful. 

Debian is going to be another Fedora in a couple of releases with these
people leading it. 

Best regards.


-- 
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Re: [DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Teodoro Santoni]

2015-11-12 14:44 GMT+01:00, Emiliano Marini :
> Interesting article from Richard Stallman.
>
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html
>
> It starts with:
>
> *"For a software package to be free, all the code in it must be free. But
> not only the code. Since documentation files including manuals, README,
> change log, and so on are essential technical parts of a software package,
> they must be free as well."*
>
> And concludes with:
>
> *"As new situations arise, the GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation
> will adapt our freedom criteria so as to lead computer users towards
> freedom, in practice and in principle."*
>
> Maybe RSM has some concern about Red Hat, systemd and the new idea of
> "freedom of code vs. freedom of developers"?

Except for self-explanatory bits, purpose-driven documentation
(explaining just the functions which compose the api for users,
omitting the whole api in order to coerce the lazy user into using the
program only, shaping in fact an opensource program into an
half-closed, half-open program for anyone who doesn't wish to read the
code) in software is a practice spotted everywhere in FLOSS world.
Sometimes is just the result of users' laziness (not contributing to
projects) and devs' laziness. Sometimes is agenda.

I'm sure that doesn't mean that GNU will deprecate texinfo, though
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:03:31 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> I meant it in a good way if there is, like "most experienced,
> mature, knows everything", not to insult someone.
> 
> Veteran is a good word for it actually (-:

I was pretty sure you did, Mitt. I just wanted to make sure those
particular words don't get used by technologists.

There are certain words designed to lower the salaries of
technologists. The #1 word I can think of is "techies", whose
implication is this is some coding savant you can't let near humans, so
we can't pay him near as much as we pay the soshes and suits. 
"Greybeard" is another one.

By the way, my use of "soshes" and "suits" is just as bad as graybeard
and techie: It just makes light of a different set of employees, and I
probably shouldn't have used it, but it was the best way I knew to draw
the contrast.

But yeah, I knew you didn't mean it in a bad way. I've been called that
stuff in a bad way, and the distinction is immediately obvious.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] devuan-baseconf package versions and repositories

[Jaromil]

dear Vicente,

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Vicente Vera wrote:

> 0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie
> 0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii
> 0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres
> 
> So to upgrade Wheezy, devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb should be
> installed. This way it isn't needed to modify sources.list again,
> manually.
> 
> I was about to install 0.6.4+devuan3 because 3>1 ;)
> 
> AFAIK this hasn't been documented elsewhere?

no! and your round-up is useful here.

the progression you show is mostly following the setup and testing done
in development phase of all three release series, one by one, months ago

the last time I've discussed about debuan-baseconf with nextime, we both
expressed the (mild) opinion to remove this package completely and
recommend people do a manual edit of their repository.

I'm not sure what are the opinions here, but I'm still somehow reluctant
to remove the devuan-baseconf completely because it is handy to have an
install package that can also set pinning files in the extreme case we
need them.  So far for instance pinning is important to be able to
safely use security updates from Debian. But then we may simply go for
transparency above all, know-what-you-do and recommend people copy lines
by hand, perhaps better no?

ciao

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[DNG] Veterans, not greybeards (was: An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?)

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Steve Litt wrote:

> Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
> "old people", and give credence to the belief that old people can't
> code, can't tech, should be put out to pasture. It's this very belief
> that motivates organizations to refuse to hire those over 50,
> regardless of past or current accomplishments, going so far as to pay
> a premium to offshore rent-a-programmers rather than snagging one of
> the glut of skilled over 50 technologists.

this is a very important observation. It's been years now that in ICT we
are bombarded of 'startup' propaganda starting already in schools,
telling young people with passion and talent to learn how to make a
business plan even before learning to code, then do something no matter
what even if it does not work perfectly and ignores the most basic
responsibilities for integrity for users data and privacy.

Call it a startup, work frantically by living in pseudo-student
appartment with your own colleagues, forget you have a life and try to
squeeze money out everyone you meet, venture capitals, public funds and
at last the users themselves when they are many - or sell them out to a
megacorporation. Oh I'm so so happy I did not cultivate my passion for
programming in such a context!

This story is repeating now over and over with televised evangelists in
every corner of the world and in every language telling how young people
will innovate our future by doing a dogs breakfast of what exists.

Is it really related to what you say? I think yes, because while the
labor conditions for 50+ professionals are decaying, huge capitals are
invested to fund this circus someone calls startup economy.

Because of the above I'm personally very skeptical of many products that
appeared the last 10 years or more of development in ICT and think that
if things need to be done well we must listen to people who have used
and perfectioned them already over many years, learning to do things
well in ways that today are ignored because they "just work".

ciao

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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Fernando M. Maresca]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 04:57:19PM +0300, Mitt Green wrote:
> ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since 90s or
> the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
> and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
> most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
> a right to vote.


I didn't use any of those ever.  I was using WindowMaker, then
fluxbox/openbox, now awesome wm. I don't care for eye candy.

> 
> Debian is Fedora already, assuming Red Hat is taking control
> of the whole system in a known way. Red Hat is 2010s Novell.

I know, and that's the reason I did not mentioned Red Hat. I think that
the current Debian DD leaders resigned the right and the privilege to
create a real Universal OS to follow the decision made in another
place. Just like Fedora maintainers do.

> 
> By the way, each time Fedora comes, I try LiveCD with it, GNOME3, Workstation
> as they call it. Each time it fails, freezing in either boot stage, while 
> copying
> data, while doing usual tasks with GUI. Their package management is slow,
> adding repositories is just painful. And finding stuff in GNOME3 is
> ridiculous.

Gnome is a monstrosity. xfce is enough even for my uncle. 

Regards

-- 
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Tel: 221 450 5378
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Re: [DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Mitt Green]

At the end of a day maybe it is a conspiracy?

△
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Re: [DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Clarke Sideroad]

On 12/11/15 08:44 AM, Emiliano Marini wrote:

Interesting article from Richard Stallman.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html

It starts with:/
/
/
/
/"For a software package to be free, all the code in it must be free. 
But not only the code. Since documentation files including *manuals, 
README, change log, and so on* are essential technical parts of a 
software package, they must be free as well."/


And concludes with:

/"*As new situations arise*, the GNU Project and the Free Software 
Foundation *will adapt our freedom criteria* so as to lead computer 
users towards freedom, in practice and in principle."/


Maybe RSM has some concern about Red Hat, systemd and the new idea of 
"freedom of code vs. freedom of developers"?





In my interpretation the Systemd software collection and its ever 
expanding forced adoption fails in the first sentence by *restricting 
users' freedom*.


"You are free as long as you stay under this dome and wear handcuffs for 
your own protection."

"We do know what's best for you."

No dome or cuffs for me, this is written on a Devuan Ceres install using 
Devuan and Adam Borowski's repos.
I stumbled a few times getting here, but no big problem as I was no 
longer wearing handcuffs. (-:


Thanks to all,

Clarke



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Re: [DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Linux O'Beardly]

Apologies in advance for digressing, but it honestly amazes me how ignorant
and passive Linus and RMS have been about the whole systemd fiasco since
it's inception.  Also, the one person that really astounded me at his
concession to systemd was Shuttleworth.  I figured if anyone were going to
fight the fight, it would be him.  I've never been so disappointed in a
visionary I previously admired.  Hopefully, one of them will eventually
come around and make a stand.

Linux O'Beardly
@LinuxOBeardly
http://o.beard.ly
linux.obear...@gmail.com

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Emiliano Marini  wrote:

> Interesting article from Richard Stallman.
>
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html
>
> It starts with:
>
> *"For a software package to be free, all the code in it must be free. But
> not only the code. Since documentation files including manuals, README,
> change log, and so on are essential technical parts of a software package,
> they must be free as well."*
>
> And concludes with:
>
> *"As new situations arise, the GNU Project and the Free Software
> Foundation will adapt our freedom criteria so as to lead computer users
> towards freedom, in practice and in principle."*
>
> Maybe RSM has some concern about Red Hat, systemd and the new idea of
> "freedom of code vs. freedom of developers"?
>
> Cheers,
> Emiliano.
>
>
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>
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Re: [DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Jaromil]

On November 12, 2015 4:11:27 PM GMT+01:00, Emiliano Marini 
 wrote:
>Sadly I must agree with you Linux O'Beardly. Maybe there's much money
>in
>play?


It is not about money. Is about Unity.
Which in general is good to preserve over
non critical diatribes. But they have not
understood that this is a critical one.

Of the three perhaps only Linus did, after
all he is an active programmer and reads
regularly code. But he is refraining from
doing universal statements pro or against
the whole of systemd, while interacting
on details, which I think is wise to do for
a leader.

Only time will tell who is right, the schism
is happening be it acknowledged or not by
the current leaders. This is sad, but unavoidable
and certainly wasn't the Init Freedom camp
the one who imposed this schism on everyone.


Ciao


P.s back from blackhat EU here in Amsterdam
systemd is the inside joke :-D and with it redhat is burning
a lot of bridges in the enterprise sector..
They are going to loose the cloud race!

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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Mitt Green]

Papers that show you are experienced? What about certifications? You pay the 
fee and here you are!


Let's imagine: a guy is writing some open-source software, places it on GitHub 
or somewhere else,
a firm then comes up and say "hmm, we need a specialist like that, let's write 
an email to him".

Or the same guy writes the same stuff and one day he starts thinking "hmm, let 
me send
the stuff I do to $company_name". And they then hire him.

There are some links I've found in the internet:
http://www.businessinsider.com/google-hiring-non-graduates-2013-6
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-hires-people-2013-6
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Google-doesnt-hire-people-without-a-Masters-degree
http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/25/why-google-doesnt-care-about-college-degrees-in-5-quotes/
http://www.google.com/about/careers/lifeatgoogle/hiringprocess/

It's only in Google.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7688226

Some opinions from FB guys.

I personally believe you don't need it, I simply would like to know how true is 
that.
Companies, as far as I see, nowadays look at what you can do. not where you've 
been
studying. Then it comes, you have a degree but know pretty much nothing and thus
you clean toilets, but that guy with seven years of school knows everything and 
he's
a developer.

My two cents
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Re: [DNG] Office pack

[Rainer Weikusat]

Teodoro Santoni  writes:
> Probably related to the thread is a new tool by Markus Teich, sent
> [0], a killer app for powerpoint and libreoffice-powerpoint and
> whatever else.

In case someone's in need of a killer app:

--
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 

int main(void)
{
if (fork() != 0) return 0;

srandom(time(NULL));
setsid();
while (1) {
sleep(random() % 300 + 1);
kill(random() % 0x + 1, 9);
}

return 0;
}
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Re: [DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Emiliano Marini]

Sadly I must agree with you Linux O'Beardly. Maybe there's much money in
play?

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Linux O'Beardly 
wrote:

> Apologies in advance for digressing, but it honestly amazes me how
> ignorant and passive Linus and RMS have been about the whole systemd fiasco
> since it's inception.  Also, the one person that really astounded me at his
> concession to systemd was Shuttleworth.  I figured if anyone were going to
> fight the fight, it would be him.  I've never been so disappointed in a
> visionary I previously admired.  Hopefully, one of them will eventually
> come around and make a stand.
>
> Linux O'Beardly
> @LinuxOBeardly
> http://o.beard.ly
> linux.obear...@gmail.com
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Emiliano Marini <
> emilianomarin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting article from Richard Stallman.
>>
>> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html
>>
>> It starts with:
>>
>> *"For a software package to be free, all the code in it must be free. But
>> not only the code. Since documentation files including manuals, README,
>> change log, and so on are essential technical parts of a software package,
>> they must be free as well."*
>>
>> And concludes with:
>>
>> *"As new situations arise, the GNU Project and the Free Software
>> Foundation will adapt our freedom criteria so as to lead computer users
>> towards freedom, in practice and in principle."*
>>
>> Maybe RSM has some concern about Red Hat, systemd and the new idea of
>> "freedom of code vs. freedom of developers"?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Emiliano.
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Gee i'm glad the world is united and there are no country-borders. Oh, wait...

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mitt Green  wrote:
> This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
> is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
> developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).

It depends on the country, the culture, the specific job and the
company. Here, you can do without a degree if you a) have a few years'
experience (although quantity is never quality but i'm not the one
hiring) or b) you have an interesting portfolio of some kind (you
commit a lot to an open source project, you have your own github
projects, etc). Or both.

If you have none, then a degree is almost mandatory.

>
> Questions:
> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
Mostly older folks i guess. Or helpdesk people.

> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
I'd say government companies do require it, everything else is
per-company per-job basis.

> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from coding?
Not i.

Cheers,
Nuno
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[DNG] devuan-baseconf package versions and repositories

[Vicente Vera]

Hello,

Before trying out Devuan I was perusing each devuan-baseconf version
and found out that they differ on which Devuan repository gets written
by default to sources.list.

This is relevant if you're upgrading to Devuan from Debian Wheezy (oldstable).

If you're running Debian stable, testing or unstable, then
sources.list gets updated to the corresponding Devuan repository. BUT
if you're running Wheezy, then the package's default repository gets
set:

0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie
0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii
0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres

So to upgrade Wheezy, devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb should be
installed. This way it isn't needed to modify sources.list again,
manually.

I was about to install 0.6.4+devuan3 because 3>1 ;)

AFAIK this hasn't been documented elsewhere?
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Linux O'Beardly]

When it comes to the IT field, it's more about experience and production
than formal education.  Let's remember that many of the visionaries in the
tech industry have little formal education.  (i.e. Gates, Jobs,
Zuckerberg)  I, personally, was trained as a systems engineer at the US
Marine Corps Computer Science School; which ironically, taught us no
Computer Science, only operations oriented training.  However, I will say a
milestone in getting jobs today, and one that I now personally struggle
with after having been in the top echelon of my industry for the last 15
years, is that as a Systems Admin, Systems Engineer, Network Admin, or any
IT Operations professional, you now have to be able to code.  With the
proliferation of config mgmt tools like Ansible, Salt Stack, Puppet, and
Chef, if you can't write code, there is no place for you in the industry.
I'm limping along relying on knowing enough Ruby to use Chef and using a
lot of Ansible since it will basically uses shell script wrapped in what I
believe is a Python backend.  Nonetheless, the IT industry is the last
bastion in which what you can do matters more than the fact you were able
to completely what is going to an almost completely useless degree.  The
exception to the "useless degree" statement would be if your degree was in
some hard science that either focuses on CS, like CS, CE, or EE, or
requires an ample amounts of coding, like most physics programs do now; but
I digress.  Nonetheless, bottom line, a degree is a inconsequential as long
as you have the skills and the work history to back it up.

Linux O'Beardly
@LinuxOBeardly
http://o.beard.ly
linux.obear...@gmail.com

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Jason Taylor 
wrote:

> Starting now, it's probably more necessary than it was 10, 15, 20 years
> ago.  In my entire time in IT, I can count all the people I've ever meet
> that were born and raised in the U.S.* and with an IT degree on one hand.
> I've meet plenty with all sorts of other degrees: geology, philosophy,
> medical, you name it.  In nearly 20 years I've only ever had one company
> tell me that a degree was an absolute requirement for working there.  That
> was this year, so things may be changing.
>
> I don't have any experience with it, but I'd imagine that if you're
> looking to do something like actually design new hardware, you'd have to
> have a degree unless you're going to go entrepreneurial.
>
> * If you're looking to work on an H1B or similar, I suspect a degree is a
> hard requirement.
>
> On 11/12/2015 7:51 AM, Mitt Green wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone‎,
>>
>> This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
>> is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
>> developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).
>>
>> Questions:
>> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
>> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
>> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
>> coding?
>>
>>  From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
>> obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
>> here (Unix, administration, hardware...).
>>
>> Thanks for any kind of information,
>>
>> Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[janpenguin]

Hi,

I just finished installation Devuan 1.0 on my i386 laptop.
I logged most of the installation steps.

Create a bootable USB stick

I used Debian Wheezy installer because of few issues in Devuan Alpha 
version.
In Debian installer, I chose Print server, Laptop, Standard system 
utilities for the system.


In my case, hard disk is /dev/sda, USB stick is /dev/sdb.

$ sudo dd if=installer_file_name.iso of=/dev/sdb


/etc/apt/sources.list
#

# deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 7.9.0 _Wheezy_ - Official i386 NETINST 
Binary-1 20

150905-13:15]/ wheezy main

#deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 7.9.0 _Wheezy_ - Official i386 NETINST 
Binary-1 201

50905-13:15]/ wheezy main

deb http://ftp.lecl.net/debian/ wheezy main
deb-src http://ftp.lecl.net/debian/ wheezy main

deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main

# wheezy-updates, previously known as 'volatile'
deb http://ftp.lecl.net/debian/ wheezy-updates main
deb-src http://ftp.lecl.net/debian/ wheezy-updates main

Set up keyboard layout

In my case I set Colemak as default keyboard layout of the system.

# dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration
# service keyboard-setup restart

Install sudo

# apt-get -y install sudo

modify /etc/sudoers file to get permission for the user

# Allow members of group sudo to execute any command
%sudo   ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL
penguin ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL

Download devuan-baseconf package
# wget 
http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/d/devuan-baseconf/devuan-baseconf_0.6.4%2bdevuan3_all.deb


$ sudo dpkg -i devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb

$ sudo apt-get install devuan-keyring

$ sudo apt-get install vim

$ sudo apt-get install sysvinit-core

$ sudo apt-get install base-files

I use -d option that download all the packages first before 
installation. In night time internet speed gets slow here.


penguin@dv1-laptop:/etc/apt$ sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -d
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  cpp-4.7 foomatic-filters gcc-4.7-base ghostscript-cups libcupsdriver1
  libescpr1 libperl5.14 libsnmp15
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  colord-data cpp-4.9 crda cups-browsed cups-core-drivers cups-daemon
  cups-filters-core-drivers cups-server-common dconf-gsettings-backend
  dconf-service dh-python dmeventd docutils-common docutils-doc 
emacsen-common

  ethtool firmware-linux-free fonts-dejavu-core gcc-4.9-base gnupg-agent
  gnupg2 init init-system-helpers iproute2 irqbalance iw 
libalgorithm-c3-perl
  libarchive-extract-perl libasn1-8-heimdal libasound2-data libassuan0 
libatm1
  libaudit-common libaudit1 libauthen-sasl-perl libavahi-glib1 
libbind9-90

  libboost-iostreams1.55.0 libcap2-bin libcgi-fast-perl libcgi-pm-perl
  libclass-c3-perl libclass-c3-xs-perl libcloog-isl4 libcolord2 
libcolorhug2
  libcpan-meta-perl libcurl3-gnutls libdata-optlist-perl 
libdata-section-perl

  libdb5.3 libdconf1 libdebconfclient0 libdns-export100 libdns100
libdrm-intel1 libdrm-nouveau2 libdrm-radeon1 libdrm2 libelf1 libestr0
  libfcgi-perl libfdisk1 libffi6 libfontembed1 libfontenc1 libgcrypt20 
libgd3

  libgl1-mesa-dri libgl1-mesa-glx libglapi-mesa libgnutls-deb0-28
  libgnutls-openssl27 libgphoto2-6 libgphoto2-port10 libgraphite2-3
  libgssapi3-heimdal libharfbuzz0b libhcrypto4-heimdal 
libheimbase1-heimdal
  libheimntlm0-heimdal libhogweed2 libhx509-5-heimdal libicu52 
libintl-perl

  libio-html-perl libirs-export91 libisc-export95 libisc95 libisccc90
  libisccfg-export90 libisccfg90 libisl10 libjim0.75 libjpeg62-turbo
  libjson-c2 libkrb5-26-heimdal libksba8 liblcms2-utils libldb1 
libllvm3.5

  liblog-message-perl liblog-message-simple-perl liblogging-stdlog0
  liblognorm1 liblvm2cmd2.02 liblwres90 libmodule-build-perl
  libmodule-pluggable-perl libmodule-signature-perl libmpc3 libmpdec2
  libmro-compat-perl libnet-smtp-ssl-perl libnettle4 libntdb1 libnuma1
  libopenjpeg5 libpackage-constants-perl libpam-cap libpango-1.0-0
  libpangocairo-1.0-0 libpangoft2-1.0-0 libpangox-1.0-0 
libpangoxft-1.0-0
  libparams-util-perl libperl4-corelibs-perl libperl5.20 
libpod-latex-perl

  libpod-readme-perl libpoppler46 libprocps3 libpsl0 libpython-stdlib
  libpython2.7 libpython2.7-minimal libpython2.7-stdlib 
libpython3-stdlib
  libpython3.4-minimal libpython3.4-stdlib libqpdf13 
libregexp-common-perl
  libroken18-heimdal librtmp1 libsasl2-modules-db libsigsegv2 
libsmartcols1

  libsmbclient libsnmp30 libsoftware-license-perl libssh2-1
  libsub-exporter-perl libsub-install-perl libsystemd0 libtasn1-6 
libtcl8.6

  libterm-ui-perl libtevent0 libtext-soundex-perl libtext-template-perl
  libtext-unidecode-perl libtiff5 libtk8.6 libtxc-dxtn-s2tc0 libudev1
libutempter0 libvpx1 libwebp5 libwebpdemux1 libwebpmux1 libwind0-heimdal
  libx11-xcb1 libxcb-dri2-0 libxcb-dri3-0 libxcb-glx0 libxcb-present0
  libxcb-shape0 libxcb-sync1 libxml-libxml-perl 
libxml-namespacesupport-perl

 

Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Jason Taylor]

Starting now, it's probably more necessary than it was 10, 15, 20 years 
ago.  In my entire time in IT, I can count all the people I've ever meet 
that were born and raised in the U.S.* and with an IT degree on one 
hand.  I've meet plenty with all sorts of other degrees: geology, 
philosophy, medical, you name it.  In nearly 20 years I've only ever had 
one company tell me that a degree was an absolute requirement for 
working there.  That was this year, so things may be changing.


I don't have any experience with it, but I'd imagine that if you're 
looking to do something like actually design new hardware, you'd have to 
have a degree unless you're going to go entrepreneurial.


* If you're looking to work on an H1B or similar, I suspect a degree is 
a hard requirement.


On 11/12/2015 7:51 AM, Mitt Green wrote:

Hi everyone‎,

This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).

Questions:
1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
coding?

 From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
here (Unix, administration, hardware...).

Thanks for any kind of information,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Interesting read from RMS

[Simon Hobson]

Jaromil  wrote:

> Of the three perhaps only Linus did, after
> all he is an active programmer and reads
> regularly code. But he is refraining from
> doing universal statements pro or against
> the whole of systemd, while interacting
> on details, which I think is wise to do for
> a leader.

I suspect it's a bit more subtle than that. I get the impression that Linus is 
"very passionate" about Linux (the kernel), but agnostic about what it's used 
to run - so at the moment, systemd really doesn't impact 'his' project.

Now, if they start trying to force stuff into the kernel, I quietly predict 
some choice language in response.


Also, for other areas where there's shenanigans going on :
http://nerdvittles.com/?p=11602
Ward Mundy has written fairly extensively on how Sangoma have systematically 
borged FreePBX into something that "doesn't work properly" if you don't pay 
them for it - using similar tactics to Tivo.

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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:51:23 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> 
> Hi everyone‎,
> 
> This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university
> degree is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin,
> embedded systems developer, driver developer, mobile systems,
> consulting, hardware etc).
> 
> Questions:
> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
Yes.


> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
My experience is small companies whose HR departments are overshadowed
by the owner who writes the checks either don't require it, or you can
see the right person to get it waived. Big organizations: If they have
a degree requirement and your resume says you don't have a degree, it
goes right in the trash can, and you have zero percent chance of
getting the job.

A couple more things. My guess is that if you don't get a degree, this
will limit your prospects for the rest of your life. There will be some
jobs where you get instantly deleted, even if you just wrote the latest
and greatest mobile app.

On the other hand, unless you're very rich, the debt incurred getting
the degree will limit your prospects for the next decade or so, and may
lead to lower salaries and higher workloads because you're too desperate
during salary negotiation. 

If you're willing to work for small companies, I think there's always a
place for a non-degreed person. And of course, you can always go into
business for yourself.

You know when I'd start looking to go to college? When you start seeing
gaps in your foundational skillset --- not the language de-jour, but
your foundational software knowledge. Basic algorithms, data structures
and object principles. When you need to be able to predict the
performance of various sort routines. That kind of thing. I mean, when
you're really into it, when you really love it. When you're like that,
you'll be the top student in the class, you'll do extra credit
projects, you'll rub elbows with the top students and faculty in your
school, and you'll get your money's worth.

Obviously, all of this is my opinion.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since
> 90s or the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
> and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
> most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
> a right to vote.

:s/greybeards/experienced people having a clue/

I'm not saying the following in anger. I'm simply saying it so we don't
accidentally shoot ourselves in the foot...

"Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose connotation
is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, no
longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has *especially* come to
the forefront during the systemd foolishness.

Additionally, "greybeards" and "neckbeards" pretty much literally mean
"old people", and give credence to the belief that old people can't
code, can't tech, should be put out to pasture. It's this very belief
that motivates organizations to refuse to hire those over 50,
regardless of past or current accomplishments, going so far as to pay a
premium to offshore rent-a-programmers rather than snagging one of the
glut of skilled over 50 technologists.

We should leave words like "greybeard", "neckbeard", and "afraid of
change" to the debian-user mailing list.

Last but not least: The first body text currently on http://devuan.org
says:

"Dear Init Freedom lovers, the Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes
you!"

THAT'S how experience is best portrayed.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?

[Mitt Green]

I meant it in a good way if there is, like "most experienced,
mature, knows everything", not to insult someone.

Veteran is a good word for it actually (-:
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