Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Jim Brown]

On 3/29/2020 10:02 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

You would have to seriously compete in an SSB contest with some of the
more modern radios in very crowded bands to fully appreciate how much
better the more modern technologies are for both transmit and receive signal
quality. The latest Flex radios are almost shockingly good, but all of the
top-shelf modern radios are significantly better performers than the
12 year old K3 or even the K3S.


Thanks Frank. Soon after he got his Flex 6700, his two key impressions 
were 1) it was the best radio he'd ever owned; and 2) the designers of 
the radio and it's software/firmware didn't have a clue about USING 
radios on the air. #2 was so bad that they didn't even understand the 
problems. Thankfully, guys like N6WM, K9CT, and I'm sure others, stepped 
in to educate them. :)


I'm not a digital guy, but having worked in pro audio most of my 
professional life, some concepts have rubbed off. If I were to speculate 
on the shortcomings of the K3/K3S you've noted, it would be that the 
system wasn't designed with enough bits and bandwidth. But that all 
depends on the parts you can buy for a product that must sell for a 
price that customers can pay, and, as you've noted, those design 
decisions were likely made in 2006. And from where I sit, I've always 
viewed Wayne and Eric as marketing geniuses (in the best sense of that).


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Clay Autery]

Bottom Line:  As in many things  "It's the Indian, not the arrow."  
Though, I still prefer to have the best bow and arrow that I can 
possibly afford.


And as for me, "mission accomplished".   (100% self-funded) 

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 15:35, Jack Brindle via Elecraft wrote:

There is a catch in this, of course. Several of the top contesters are 
sponsored by some of the radio companies. The winner in the 2014 WRTC was 
sponsored by Icom as were many others.
The same was true in 2018. Of course, they get the best radios, delivered at 
the competition. Thus the radio choice tends to be biased by the fact that the 
contesters may not be paying for their radios, or having to hand-carry them to 
the competition.

As for the winners, we have seen many times that the contesters who are most 
familiar with propagation in the area where the competition is held will win. 
This was true in Massachusetts, Germany, and will undoubtedly be true in Italy. 
The top guys travel to the areas to get a feel for propagation, but having 
experience there for a long time makes a huge difference.
In WRTC, it isn’t so much the radio, but rather the experience in the zone that 
matter the most. Radios, logging software, antennas, etc are pretty much even. 
The ops themselves make the big difference.


73!
Jack, W6FB


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Clay, 


If you're not a serious SSB contest competitor this thread has no 
relevance to your experience or needs. Try SSB contesting at the 
highest levels of competitiveness and you'll soon become aware of 
the important performance differences among modern transceivers. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 


- Original Message -

From: "Clay Autery"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:21:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Again, out of curiosity. How do you define "better"? 

__ 
Clay Autery, KY5G 
(318) 518-1389 

On 03/29/20 11:56, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> Hi Tony 
> 
> 
> Any of the top-of-the-line radios from Flex, Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood 
> have significantly better SSB performance than the K3. 
> 
> 
> Each of my six stations has two radios, usually a K3 and a "not K3," 
> usually a Yaesu FTdx5000. During CW contests our "run" operators 
> usually favor the K3, during SSB contests our "run" operators NEVER 
> favor the K3. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: tony@verizon.net  
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:40 PM 
> To: 'donov...@starpower.net' ; 
> 'Elecraft@mailman.qth.net'  
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> Hi Frank, 
> I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
> The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs? 
> 
> Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
> But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
> have a beer or two plus chat. 
> N2TK, Tony 
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
> Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM 
> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get 
> to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
> Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
> much better SSB performance. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: "K9FD"  
> To: "Paul Gacek"  
> Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 
> 
> when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 
> 
> I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 
> 
> Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
> 3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
> one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing 
> any longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill. 
> 
> 73 Merv K9FD 
>> Merv 
>> 
>> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
>> tell you! 
>> 
>> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
>> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
>> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
>> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
>> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
>> 
>> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams 
>> placing. I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
>> 
>> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
>> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
>> 
>> Stats are fun. 
>> 
>> Paul Gacek 
>> 
>>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of 
>>> the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>>> 
>>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>>> 
>>> 
 Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
 Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
 
 Wes N7WS 
 
> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
> 
> Mike va3mw 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > > wrote: 
> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
> 
> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th 
> places use one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
> 
> So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
> 
> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
> 
> Wes N7WS 
> 
> 
>> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
>> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
> participant teams used. 
>> Lots of K3. 

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Clay, 


This thread is a discussion about the relative performance of top-of-the-line 
modern transceivers in the most demanding situations faced by serious SSB 
contest competitors. The vast majority of transceiver users have no concerns 
about the performance of their transceiver under these conditions. 




We're discussing the most demanding situations affecting transceiver 
performance: weak -- often distorted -- SSB signals surrounded by 
much stronger adjacent channel QRM. For much of the time on 
20 and especially 40 meters the adjacent much stronger signals overlap 
well into the receiver bandwidth. Typical spacing between SSB signals 
is only 1.5 kHz, if you're lucky its 2.0 kHz and only rarely 2.5 kHz or more. 
This situation is rather unimportant for the casual contester, but its a 
game changer at the upper levels of serious SSB contest competition. 


For transmitted SSB signals we're concerned about situations where our 
transmitted signal is relatively weak and surrounded by much stronger 
adjacent channel QRM. The adjacent signals usually overlap well into the 
transmitted signal bandwidth and the other operator's receiver has 
much lower performance that our top-of-the-line radio. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 



- Original Message -

From: "Clay Autery"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:20:31 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

What is this "better" SSB performance of which you speak. 

I am primarily a voice guy And I am constantly complimented on the 
quality of my transmissions. 

How are defining "better" SSB performance? 

73, 

__ 
Clay Autery, KY5G 
(318) 518-1389 

On 03/29/20 11:32, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to 
> get to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as 
> the K3. Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards 
> radios with much better SSB performance. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: "K9FD"  
> To: "Paul Gacek"  
> Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 
> 
> when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 
> 
> I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 
> 
> Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
> 3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the 
> class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, 
> and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping 
> side of downhill. 
> 
> 73 Merv K9FD 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K4 Update: Transmit Features -- Emphasis on SSB

[Clay Autery]

Yer killin' me Wayne  I may have to come out of semi-retirement and 
take on some extra clients so I can grab a K4  I am absolutely 
enthralled with the idea of operating on one.
The perfect merging of my two (non-XYL) loves now  radio and all 
things IT.  


May everyone connected to my Elecraft extended gamily be well; be safe; 
and be Blessed beyond their capacity to contain it.


73 all,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 13:37, Wayne Burdick wrote:

As Eric alluded to, the entire Elecraft design team is safely working from 
home. We're busy adding new capabilities to the K4 and testing it in real-world 
conditions. (If it weren't for the lock-down, I and other early users would 
still be inviting operators over to try it. Previous demonstrations have led to 
amazement over the sound of the receive audio quality, among other reactions.)

With its new, faster DSP, versatile architecture, large display, and 
essentially unlimited code space, the K4 can offer features that go far beyond 
what we've been able to offer before.

Here's a sampling of what this will mean for SSB users:

*** Optimal audio

The K4's RX and TX passband in SSB modes can be configured to be flat from 
below 50 Hz to over 4 kHz, with none of the drawbacks of crystal filters 
(delay, ripple, passband edge effects). Easy to use graphic TX/RX EQ and other 
bandwidth controls allow the operator to tailor the response per-mode and for 
different microphones. The overall effect is full, rich audio in both transmit 
and receive -- the latter in full stereo.

Wider transmit and receive bandwidths can also be configured for digital audio 
modes, ESSB, and AM, at the operator's discretion.

*** Exceptional ALC performance

The K4 uses a new ALC system designed to completely eliminate power overshoot 
and varying loop dynamics. This makes it both easier to adjust and more 
compatible with external amplifiers.

*** Multi-parameter transmit metering

In voice modes, the K4 provides clear bar graph displays of all four transmit 
parameters simultaneously: power output, SWR, ALC, and compression (processing 
level). Real-time numeric readouts of power, SWR, supply voltage/current, and 
PA temperature are also available.

*** Foolproof split transmit indication

You'll never lose track of whether you're in SPLIT mode with the K4: all four 
transmit bar graphs are grouped either on the left (non-split, i.e. VFO A = TX) 
or right (split, VFO B = TX). TX icons are also clear and unambiguous.

The K4 also allows full cross-band/cross-mode operation in both split and 
non-split.

*** Versatile audio I/O

There are mic and headphone jacks on both the front and rear panels. Some 
operators prefer to use the rear panel connections to avoid cluttering the 
operating position. Audio for both voice and data modes can be either analog 
(LINE in/out) or digital (via USB or Ethernet).

*** Large DVR memory

The digital voice recorder draws on the K4's large pool of flash memory, 
allowing virtually unlimited expansion for both transmit and receive purposes. 
There are also new, easy to use playback controls.

*** Redesigned PA stages

All transmit stages have been upgraded, with improved biasing, parametric 
monitoring, and T/R sequencing. Hardware is also in place to support 
closed-loop amplifier IMD optimization, both internally and externally.

*** Support for future operating modes

With DSP and MCU horsepower to burn, we'll be able to add new voice and data 
modes in the future (and even new bands). The K4 is designed from the ground up 
for extensibility in both hardware and software.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Clay Autery]

Again, out of curiosity.  How do you define "better"?

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 11:56, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Tony


Any of the top-of-the-line radios from Flex, Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood
have significantly better SSB performance than the K3.


Each of my six stations has two radios, usually a K3 and a "not K3,"
usually a Yaesu FTdx5000. During CW contests our "run" operators
usually favor the K3, during SSB contests our "run" operators NEVER
favor the K3.


73
Frank
W3LPL



-Original Message-
From: tony@verizon.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:40 PM
To: 'donov...@starpower.net' ; 'Elecraft@mailman.qth.net' 

Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

Hi Frank,
I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs?

Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
have a beer or two plus chat.
N2TK, Tony


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get to 
WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
much better SSB performance.


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD" 
To: "Paul Gacek" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing any 
longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of
the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th
places use one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes N7WS



On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018

participant teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Clay Autery]

What is this "better" SSB performance of which you speak.

I am primarily a voice guy  And I am constantly complimented on the 
quality of my transmissions.


How are defining "better" SSB performance?

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 11:32, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to
get to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as
the K3. Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards
radios with much better SSB performance.


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD" 
To: "Paul Gacek" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Jim, 


You would have to seriously compete in an SSB contest with some of the 
more modern radios in very crowded bands to fully appreciate how much 
better the more modern technologies are for both transmit and receive signal 
quality. The latest Flex radios are almost shockingly good, but all of the 
top-shelf modern radios are significantly better performers than the 
12 year old K3 or even the K3S. 



We're discussing the most demanding situations affecting SSB transceiver 
performance: weak -- often distorted -- SSB signals surrounded by 
much stronger adjacent channel QRM. For much of the time on 
20 and especially 40 meters the adjacent much stronger signals overlap 
well into the receiver bandwidth. Typical spacing between SSB signals 
is only 1.5 kHz, if you're lucky its 2.0 kHz and only rarely 2.5 kHz or more. 
This situation is rather unimportant for the casual contester, but its a 
game changer at the upper levels of serious SSB contest competition. 


I have not made technical measurements of K3 SSB transmitter and 
receiver performance nor do I have the capability to do so. I suspect the 
more modern designs have improved the dynamic response of their entire 
receiver and transmitter chain in ways that can't be captured by simple 
static performance measurements such as frequency response, dynamic range 
and IMD. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 




- Original Message -

From: "Jim Brown"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:32:52 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Hi Frank, 

SSB is my un-favorite mode, and I don't have exposure to other 
contemporary rigs, so I'd be interested to get your perspective of what 
features/performance of the K3 are weak as opposed to the other radios. 

73, Jim K9YC 

On 3/29/2020 10:09 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
> much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. 

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Re: [Elecraft] K4 Update: Transmit Features -- Emphasis on SSB

[Wes]

That's worth $4K right there.  Why manufacturers provide only front panel 
connectors for these functions is a mystery to me.


Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 11:37 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

...

There are mic and headphone jacks on both the front and rear panels. Some 
operators prefer to use the rear panel connections to avoid cluttering the 
operating position. Audio for both voice and data modes can be either analog 
(LINE in/out) or digital (via USB or Ethernet).



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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Barry]

Something that I think is being missed. Didn't Elecraft address all of 
this in the K3s upgrade and design? I do contest using SSB, and haven't 
seen a problem with my K3s.


73,
Barry
K3NDM


-- Original Message --
From: "Igor Sokolov" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 3/29/2020 5:41:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...



29.03.2020 23:06, donov...@starpower.net пишет:


It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the K4.


73
Frank
W3LPL


Frank, please keep us posted regarding the outcome of this future testing.

73, Igor UA9CDC

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[Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Report

[kevinr]

Good Evening,

   Both bands had QSB and a lot of noise.  But the signals were mostly 
easy to copy.  QSB ate a few numbers though.  The best signal of the day 
was from KL7CW on 20 meters.  Rick hit S9 more than once.  Many people 
spoke of walking around their neighborhood.  I'm catching up on reading 
the stacks of magazines which accumulate.  If only  they were printed on 
newsprint they would work well for heating too.



  On 14050.5 kHz at 2200z:

W0CZ - Ken - ND

NO8V - John - MI

KL7CW - Rick - AK

K0JFJ - Nick - AZ

K4JPN - Steve - GA

W8OV - Dave - TX


  On 7047.5 kHz at z:

W6JHB - Jim - CA

K9ZTV - Kent - MO

KL7CW - Rick - AK

K0DTJ - Brian - CA

K6PJV - Dale - CA

W8OV - Dave - TX

W0CZ - Ken - ND

KN6DR - Thomas - WA


   Until next week stay active and be well,

 73,  Kevin.  KD5ONS

-

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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[EricJ]

Here's one example. No apparent squeeze keying. No wrist movement. Just 
flying fingers. There are dozens of them on youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_ZEwZzuqW0

Eric KE6US

On 3/29/2020 1:24 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:

The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators
learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've
noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali
(what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement.


The only place I know that Morse was sent using "fingers only" was with
iambic/squeeze keying using an electronic keyer.

I learned on a straight key 50+ years ago where I was taught to use the
entire forearm.  I moved to a bug where I was taught to roll the forearm
(confirmed after the fact by my wife's grandfather who was a long time
Western Electric landline operator/station manager) to a single paddle
TO keyer and eventually to a dual paddle keyer.  I still roll my wrist
and use very little finger movement (obviously I don't "squeeze").

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code 
was developed especially for it.


Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is 
more important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist 
action. Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it 
in any way. I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube 
demonstrating Begali (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with 
no wrist movement. I've only seen it on youtube as nobody I've known 
since the Army ever sent that fast!


Eric KE6US




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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[EricJ]

I use a homebrew lefty bug 90% of the time, but use a paddle with my K2 
when camping. Most of the time, without thinking, I find myself sending 
with the paddle as if it were a bug. Manual dashes and automatic dots. 
It took me awhile to even realize I was doing it.


Eric KE6US

On 3/29/2020 1:50 PM, Jim Sheldon wrote:
 I also taught myself (took a couple years to master) to switch back 
and forthe between paddles and the bug, a skill I maintain to this day 
and I'm turning 78 in a few days.


Jim, W0EB


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Jim Brown]

Hi Frank,

SSB is my un-favorite mode, and I don't have exposure to other 
contemporary rigs, so I'd be interested to get your perspective of what 
features/performance of the K3 are weak as opposed to the other radios.


73, Jim K9YC

On 3/29/2020 10:09 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years.


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[Elecraft] 40 meter Elecraft net

[Steve Hall]

40 meter net every Sunday at 1845Z on 7.280+/-
AM stations were spread out over the entire area of the band we frequent.
Conditions not the greatest apparently as turn out was low.  Thanks to
those participating.
My apologies if my data is not correct.  My notes were a little garbled.

WM6P GA   Steve K3s, KPA500
N8AID MA   Daryl  K3s
WB9JNZ IL  EricK3
K8NU  OH   CarlK3s
N0MPM   IA Mike   K3s
KG5SBS  AR   Tim FT857
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[Elecraft] Results of 'survey'

[Al Lorona]

Thanks to all who replied to my question about gap width on your paddles.

I got answers ranging from 0.6 mil (15.24 micron) to 30 mil (0.762 mm), a 
spread of 50x! This obviously comes down to personal preference. I had to smile 
at the reply from George, W3HBM: "Whatever feels good to you!  Enjoy!", which 
was George's tactful way of saying, "Stop overthinking it, dude!" Point taken, 
George!

What spurred this question is I recently bought a new paddle and it came from 
the factory with a phenomenally small gap-- much smaller than I had used all my 
life-- but yet it felt okay. I let it out a little bit, and as I did I wondered 
if I was violating some universal rule of thumb. I wasn't.

Thanks, everybody!

Al  W6LX

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[Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Andy Durbin]

"the prosign for "Please repeat,"or "I will repeat."

I was taught over 55 years ago that "repeat" was an artillery fire control 
instruction that had no place in any communication except for artillery fire 
control.  Surprising to me that IMI would be defined that way.

In UK Signals,  the phone phrases were "say again", "I say again", and "say 
again words twice".

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Fred Jensen]

Thanks Frank!  Saved me looking for it.  She has a swing not unlike but 
more precise than the "Lake Erie Swing."  Very easy copy.  She left KPH 
and became the operator on a US Naval cargo vessel for awhile.  I 
believe she retired from that after some health problems, I don't know 
if she's still a regular at KPH.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/29/2020 2:39 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote:

Beautiful!

On Mar 29, 2020, at 4:23 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Fred,


This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI

73
Frank
W3LPL




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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Drew AF2Z]

Ha, ha... computer spell check at work: "immolated".

Sending on a bug is quite different from sending on a paddle + keyer. 
The op needs to be more physical with a bug in order to inject kinetic 
energy into the mechanism. Setting it up like a paddle and trying to 
work it with fingers only will not go very well.


As for copying, there is nothing worse than words run together in 
combination with pauses in the middle of words-- probably at least as 
common with paddles as bugs. Any sending variations other than that are 
merely "accents". (Admittedly, there is no accent with paddle + keyer-- 
only mistakes.)


73,
Drew
AF2Z










On 03/29/20 17:16, marvwhee...@nwlink.com wrote:

Copying code sent with a semi-automatic key is significantly different than 
copying code sent with a keyer and paddle. Most amateurs, including many old 
time operators, send the dits at 40 wpm and the dahs at 15 wpm. Denise stoops 
sounds as good as anyone I have ever heard using a bug and should be immolated 
to everyone attempting to use one.

Marv KG7V


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:02 PM
To: donov...@starpower.net
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different than 
sending with a paddle connected to a keyer.   The keyer is supposed to make the 
dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is controlled and 
timed electronically.

With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit length 
by the vibrating pendulum.

I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination.
  
Bob, K4TAX



Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Fred,


This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI

73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "Fred Jensen" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique
was a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent
finger movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember
other commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.
I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
floats your boat.

In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the
DVR, we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on
Netflix. It turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better
from the Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless
played in the disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not
sound like the 5 KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack
Phillips was depicted sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish
looking key and sending Continental code while working Cape Race. If
memory serves me [often doesn't these days], ships in that era used
American Morse with North American stations. Again ... whatever works for you.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County


On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished 
Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is 
improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars 
and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. 
But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years 
of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.

Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when i 
send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was 
correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I started 
with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an 
electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I 
probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. 
But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send 
with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It 
is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High 
Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.

To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not 
me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my 
foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some 
years. I think I can still 

Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Rose]

The following is from one (me) who comes from decades as a seagoing op on
USC (now NOAA) vessels and HAM band operation starting in 1961.

The correct procedure is to use your wrist as a "spring".  Failure to do so
will soon cause a condition known as a "glass fist".

I'm also a musician, so one foot serves
as a metronome to establish a very even
sending rate.

TRIVIA ... if confronted with a brief need to use a "backwards" set of
paddles, just turn it around and reach over the top.

For more info see my QRZ page.

73

Ken Kopp - K0PP







On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 15:17  wrote:

> Copying code sent with a semi-automatic key is significantly different
> than copying code sent with a keyer and paddle. Most amateurs, including
> many old time operators, send the dits at 40 wpm and the dahs at 15 wpm.
> Denise stoops sounds as good as anyone I have ever heard using a bug and
> should be immolated to everyone attempting to use one.
>
> Marv KG7V
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:02 PM
> To: donov...@starpower.net
> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
>
> Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different
> than sending with a paddle connected to a keyer.   The keyer is supposed to
> make the dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is
> controlled and timed electronically.
>
> With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit
> length by the vibrating pendulum.
>
> I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination.
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> >
> > Hi Fred,
> >
> >
> > This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
> > and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
> >
> >
> > www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
> >
> > 73
> > Frank
> > W3LPL
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: "Fred Jensen" 
> > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
> >
> > Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
> > sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
> > commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique
> > was a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent
> > finger movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember
> > other commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never
> learned.
> > I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
> > floats your boat.
> >
> > In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the
> > DVR, we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on
> > Netflix. It turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better
> > from the Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless
> > played in the disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not
> > sound like the 5 KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack
> > Phillips was depicted sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish
> > looking key and sending Continental code while working Cape Race. If
> > memory serves me [often doesn't these days], ships in that era used
> > American Morse with North American stations. Again ... whatever works
> for you.
> >
> > 73,
> > Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> > Sparks NV DM09dn
> > Washoe County
> >
> >> On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
> >> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most
> accomplished Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would
> think it is improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched
> musicians play guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I
> am not a musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like
> musicians do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent
> operator.
> >>
> >> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal
> cords when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my
> contesting. She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average
> Morse operator. I started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex
> bug in 1954. Up Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year
> period I always moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles.
> I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who
> can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one
> thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a
> member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are
> excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.
> >>
> >> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to
> some. Not me. By the way I decided 

Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Walter Underwood]

II.9.10. Using ‘KN’

‘K’ = ‘over’. Sending just ‘K’ at the end of your over leaves the door open for 
other stations to break in. If you don’t want to be interrupted, send ‘KN’.

‘KN’ means that you want to hear ONLY the station whose callsign you just sent 
(= ‘go ahead, others keep out’ or ‘over to you only’), in other words: no 
breakers at this time please.

‘KN’ is mainly used when chaos is around the corner. A possible scenario: 
different stations are coming back to your CQ. You are decoding one partial 
call and you send: ‘ON4AB? DE G3ZZZ PSE UR CALL AGN (again) K’. The station 
ON4AB? answers you, but in addition several other stations call simultaneously, 
making it impossible to copy his call. The procedure is to call ON4AB? again 
and end your call with ‘KN’ instead of ‘K’, this to emphasize you only want to 
hear ON4AB? come back to you. Example: ‘ON4AB? DE G3ZZZ KN’ or even ‘ONLY 
ON4AB? DE G3ZZZ KN’. If you are still short of authority on the frequency you 
may try ‘ON4AB? DE G3ZZZ KN N N N’ (keep some extra space between the letters 
N). Now you are really getting nervous... 

Page 22: 
https://www.hamradio-operating-ethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/1-Eth-operating-EN-iaru-PRINT-1july2008.pdf

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 2:46 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
> 
> Officially, "K" is the prosign for "invitation to transmit."  OK, nothing is 
> "official" in ham radio, but hams have traditionally ended a CQ or a 
> transmission with "K", an invitation to transmit ... roughly the CW 
> equivalent of "over." Also traditionally, although less so, is "KN" which 
> roughly translates, "over to the station I'm in contact with only." Ending a 
> CQ with "KN" is thus mildly nonsensical since you're not in contact with 
> anyone yet.
> 
> However, consider that the Morse character for "?" translates to "IMI" [and 
> others such as "UTI" and "EWI"], the prosign for "Please repeat," or "I will 
> repeat."  In the heyday of radiotelegraphy, "INT" was used by the Navy as the 
> interrogatory prosign meaning "What follows is a question."  INT QSB, "Are my 
> signals fading?"  Hams and most commercial ops just used IMI for either, 
> still do, and somehow, we're not confused.  K or KN ... most will figure it 
> out.
> 
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
> 
> On 3/29/2020 2:13 PM, brianchapn...@rogers.com wrote:
>> Jim, pardon my ignorance but KN means end of transmission or invite a 
>> specific station to transmit from what I see. Why would that deter a reply 
>> from a CQ? I am sure you are right but I would like to know the experienced 
>> understanding from a pro.
>> 
>> Brian VE3GMZ
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hello Igor, 


I'm sure there will be many, many reports after the K4 starts shipping. 


Its very difficult to remove bias from the test and evaluation process. 
Inevitably the owner of a new radio, antenna or any other new capability 
will be biased toward the new investment. 


Its necessary to introduce blindness into the test procedure to get a valid 
result. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Igor Sokolov"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 9:41:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 


29.03.2020 23:06, donov...@starpower.net пишет: 
> 
> It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the 
> K4. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 

Frank, please keep us posted regarding the outcome of this future testing. 

73, Igor UA9CDC 

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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Fred Jensen]

Officially, "K" is the prosign for "invitation to transmit."  OK, 
nothing is "official" in ham radio, but hams have traditionally ended a 
CQ or a transmission with "K", an invitation to transmit ... roughly the 
CW equivalent of "over." Also traditionally, although less so, is "KN" 
which roughly translates, "over to the station I'm in contact with 
only." Ending a CQ with "KN" is thus mildly nonsensical since you're not 
in contact with anyone yet.


However, consider that the Morse character for "?" translates to "IMI" 
[and others such as "UTI" and "EWI"], the prosign for "Please repeat," 
or "I will repeat."  In the heyday of radiotelegraphy, "INT" was used by 
the Navy as the interrogatory prosign meaning "What follows is a 
question."  INT QSB, "Are my signals fading?"  Hams and most commercial 
ops just used IMI for either, still do, and somehow, we're not 
confused.  K or KN ... most will figure it out.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/29/2020 2:13 PM, brianchapn...@rogers.com wrote:

Jim, pardon my ignorance but KN means end of transmission or invite a specific 
station to transmit from what I see. Why would that deter a reply from a CQ? I 
am sure you are right but I would like to know the experienced understanding 
from a pro.

Brian VE3GMZ



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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Igor Sokolov]

29.03.2020 23:06, donov...@starpower.net пишет:


It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the K4.


73
Frank
W3LPL


Frank, please keep us posted regarding the outcome of this future testing.

73, Igor UA9CDC

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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Carl Yaffey]

Beautiful!


> On Mar 29, 2020, at 4:23 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Hi Fred, 
> 
> 
> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style 
> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending. 
> 
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 

Carl Yaffey  K8NU
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.grassahol.com
http://www.bluesswing.com
Https://www.columbusfolkmusicsociety.org
http://www.timbrewolves.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.folkramblers.carl-yaffey.com
Http:www.clintonvillegrass.com


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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[marvwheeler]

Copying code sent with a semi-automatic key is significantly different than 
copying code sent with a keyer and paddle. Most amateurs, including many old 
time operators, send the dits at 40 wpm and the dahs at 15 wpm. Denise stoops 
sounds as good as anyone I have ever heard using a bug and should be immolated 
to everyone attempting to use one.

Marv KG7V


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:02 PM
To: donov...@starpower.net
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different than 
sending with a paddle connected to a keyer.   The keyer is supposed to make the 
dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is controlled and 
timed electronically. 

With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit length 
by the vibrating pendulum. 

I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination. 
 
Bob, K4TAX


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Hi Fred,
> 
> 
> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style 
> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
> 
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
> 
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Fred Jensen" 
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ? 
> 
> Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of 
> sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when 
> commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique 
> was a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent 
> finger movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember 
> other commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.
> I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever 
> floats your boat.
> 
> In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the 
> DVR, we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on 
> Netflix. It turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better 
> from the Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless 
> played in the disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not 
> sound like the 5 KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack 
> Phillips was depicted sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish 
> looking key and sending Continental code while working Cape Race. If 
> memory serves me [often doesn't these days], ships in that era used 
> American Morse with North American stations. Again ... whatever works for you.
> 
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
> 
>> On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote: 
>> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished 
>> Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is 
>> improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play 
>> guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a 
>> musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians 
>> do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent operator. 
>> 
>> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords 
>> when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. 
>> She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I 
>> started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up 
>> Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always 
>> moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 
>> 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can 
>> crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not 
>> think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW 
>> oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are excellent users of 
>> Morse. Google that organization. 
>> 
>> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. 
>> Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use 
>> my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for 
>> some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In 
>> my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some 
>> practice. 
>> 
>> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator 
>> skill. 
>> 
>> 73
>> Jim
>> W9VNE/VA3VNE
>> 
> 
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> 
> 

Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[hawley, charles j jr]

So one of the older ops could answer them and ask their intentions and explain 
why...

Chuck Hawley
 c-haw...@illinois.edu

 Amateur Radio, KE9UW
 aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles




My pet peeve these days with the newer ops that actually can send CW is
they call CQ and then end the CQ sequence with "KN" and then wonder why
nobody answers them - LOL.

Jim, W0EB

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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[brianchapnick]

Jim, pardon my ignorance but KN means end of transmission or invite a specific 
station to transmit from what I see. Why would that deter a reply from a CQ? I 
am sure you are right but I would like to know the experienced understanding 
from a pro.

Brian VE3GMZ 



Sent via BlackBerry Hub+ Inbox for Android


  Original Message  


From: w...@cox.net
Sent: March 29, 2020 4:52 p.m.
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Reply to: w...@cox.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?


I learned CW back in 1961 as a "Morse Intercept Operator" in the Army
Security Agency.  They didn't teach us to send, other than after we
passed 18 groups (yes, 5 leter/number groups, not English words) per
minute copying on a "Mill" they gave us a 4 hour class on sending with a
hand key.  To pass that class we had to send a paragraph of text which
was recorded in the morning and then in the afternoon we had to copy
back the text we sent and get 75 percent perfect copy to pass.  THAT is
extremely difficult when you learned to copy 5 letter/number groups and
then the sending test was a paragraph of English and your own sending to
boot!

I taught myself higher speed sending using a TO keyer and a Vibroplex
single lever paddle (Iambic keying hadn't been invented at that time). 
I didn't get to where I could get my ham license until I got to Japan in
1963 and took the old "Conditional" test.  Once I had my license I
bought a Vibroplex bug and again taught myself to use it.  I do roll my
wrist slightly, and for me that is very comfortable.  I also taught
myself (took a couple years to master) to switch back and forthe between
paddles and the bug, a skill I maintain to this day and I'm turning 78
in a few days.  I can still copy 60 wpm or so in my head but with the
bug or paddles, my comfortable sending speed is between 25 and 30.

My pet peeve these days with the newer ops that actually can send CW is
they call CQ and then end the CQ sequence with "KN" and then wonder why
nobody answers them - LOL.

Jim, W0EB

-- Original Message --
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 3/29/2020 3:24:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

>On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
>>The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators
>>learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've
>>noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali
>>(what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement.
>
>The only place I know that Morse was sent using "fingers only" was with
>iambic/squeeze keying using an electronic keyer.
>
>I learned on a straight key 50+ years ago where I was taught to use the
>entire forearm.  I moved to a bug where I was taught to roll the forearm
>(confirmed after the fact by my wife's grandfather who was a long time
>Western Electric landline operator/station manager) to a single paddle
>TO keyer and eventually to a dual paddle keyer.  I still roll my wrist
>and use very little finger movement (obviously I don't "squeeze").
>
>73,
>
>    ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
>>Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code was 
>>developed especially for it.
>>
>>Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is more 
>>important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. 
>>Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. 
>>I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali (what 
>>else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement. I've only seen 
>>it on youtube as nobody I've known since the Army ever sent that fast!
>>
>>Eric KE6US
>>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different than 
sending with a paddle connected to a keyer.   The keyer is supposed to make the 
dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is controlled and 
timed electronically. 

With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit length 
by the vibrating pendulum. 

I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination. 
 
Bob, K4TAX


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Hi Fred, 
> 
> 
> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style 
> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending. 
> 
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Fred Jensen"  
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ? 
> 
> Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of 
> sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when 
> commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique was 
> a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent finger 
> movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember other 
> commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned. 
> I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever 
> floats your boat. 
> 
> In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the DVR, 
> we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on Netflix. It 
> turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better from the 
> Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless played in the 
> disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not sound like the 5 
> KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack Phillips was depicted 
> sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish looking key and sending 
> Continental code while working Cape Race. If memory serves me [often 
> doesn't these days], ships in that era used American Morse with North 
> American stations. Again ... whatever works for you. 
> 
> 73, 
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW 
> Sparks NV DM09dn 
> Washoe County 
> 
>> On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote: 
>> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished 
>> Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is 
>> improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play 
>> guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a 
>> musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians 
>> do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent operator. 
>> 
>> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords 
>> when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. 
>> She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I 
>> started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up 
>> Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always 
>> moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 
>> 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can 
>> crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not 
>> think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW 
>> oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are excellent users of 
>> Morse. Google that organization. 
>> 
>> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. 
>> Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use 
>> my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for 
>> some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In 
>> my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some 
>> practice. 
>> 
>> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator 
>> skill. 
>> 
>> 73 
>> Jim 
>> W9VNE/VA3VNE 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Jim Sheldon]

I learned CW back in 1961 as a "Morse Intercept Operator" in the Army 
Security Agency.  They didn't teach us to send, other than after we 
passed 18 groups (yes, 5 leter/number groups, not English words) per 
minute copying on a "Mill" they gave us a 4 hour class on sending with a 
hand key.  To pass that class we had to send a paragraph of text which 
was recorded in the morning and then in the afternoon we had to copy 
back the text we sent and get 75 percent perfect copy to pass.  THAT is 
extremely difficult when you learned to copy 5 letter/number groups and 
then the sending test was a paragraph of English and your own sending to 
boot!


I taught myself higher speed sending using a TO keyer and a Vibroplex 
single lever paddle (Iambic keying hadn't been invented at that time).  
I didn't get to where I could get my ham license until I got to Japan in 
1963 and took the old "Conditional" test.  Once I had my license I 
bought a Vibroplex bug and again taught myself to use it.  I do roll my 
wrist slightly, and for me that is very comfortable.  I also taught 
myself (took a couple years to master) to switch back and forthe between 
paddles and the bug, a skill I maintain to this day and I'm turning 78 
in a few days.  I can still copy 60 wpm or so in my head but with the 
bug or paddles, my comfortable sending speed is between 25 and 30.


My pet peeve these days with the newer ops that actually can send CW is 
they call CQ and then end the CQ sequence with "KN" and then wonder why 
nobody answers them - LOL.


Jim, W0EB

-- Original Message --
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 3/29/2020 3:24:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?


On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:

The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators
learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've
noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali
(what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement.


The only place I know that Morse was sent using "fingers only" was with
iambic/squeeze keying using an electronic keyer.

I learned on a straight key 50+ years ago where I was taught to use the
entire forearm.  I moved to a bug where I was taught to roll the forearm
(confirmed after the fact by my wife's grandfather who was a long time
Western Electric landline operator/station manager) to a single paddle
TO keyer and eventually to a dual paddle keyer.  I still roll my wrist
and use very little finger movement (obviously I don't "squeeze").

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:

Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code was 
developed especially for it.

Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is more 
important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. 
Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've 
noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali (what else?) 
keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement. I've only seen it on 
youtube as nobody I've known since the Army ever sent that fast!

Eric KE6US




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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

There is a catch in this, of course. Several of the top contesters are 
sponsored by some of the radio companies. The winner in the 2014 WRTC was 
sponsored by Icom as were many others.
The same was true in 2018. Of course, they get the best radios, delivered at 
the competition. Thus the radio choice tends to be biased by the fact that the 
contesters may not be paying for their radios, or having to hand-carry them to 
the competition.

As for the winners, we have seen many times that the contesters who are most 
familiar with propagation in the area where the competition is held will win. 
This was true in Massachusetts, Germany, and will undoubtedly be true in Italy. 
The top guys travel to the areas to get a feel for propagation, but having 
experience there for a long time makes a huge difference. 
In WRTC, it isn’t so much the radio, but rather the experience in the zone that 
matter the most. Radios, logging software, antennas, etc are pretty much even. 
The ops themselves make the big difference.


73!
Jack, W6FB



> On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:06 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Hi Carl, 
> 
> 
> A reminder about this thread, its not about the performance of the K3, 
> its about the preferences of highly competitive contesters who have 
> many excellent choices in the marketplace. Arguably more choices 
> than ever before. 
> 
> 
> Rather than getting into detailed discussions about specific performance 
> parameters, let me just suggest that you do what we do at W3LPL 
> during every SSB contest. Set up a K3 for SSB using the best 
> parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up any other top-of-the-line 
> radio next to it. The comparison in received SSB audio quality is stark. 
> When digging weak -- often distorted -- signals out of noise and extreme 
> adjacent channel interference, overall receiver audio is extremely important. 
> 
> 
> Do the same test with SSB transmitted audio quality by setting up a "blind 
> test." Use the best K3 parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up 
> any other top-of-the-line radio next to it. Ask several very competitive 
> SSB contesters to listen to transmissions from both radios. Don't tell 
> them advance which radio is which, just tell them Radio A and Radio B. 
> I guarantee you that no competitive contester will prefer K3 transmitted 
> SSB audio over any of the other top-of-the-line radios in a blind test. 
> 
> 
> It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the 
> K4. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Carl Yaffey"  
> To: donov...@starpower.net, Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 5:35:15 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver 
> audio? Transmitter EQ? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> 
> 
> Charles, 
> 
> 
> 
> The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
> gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 
> 
> 
> The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
> much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
> revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
> especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carl Yaffey K8NU 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:

The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators
learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've
noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali
(what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement.


The only place I know that Morse was sent using "fingers only" was with
iambic/squeeze keying using an electronic keyer.

I learned on a straight key 50+ years ago where I was taught to use the
entire forearm.  I moved to a bug where I was taught to roll the forearm
(confirmed after the fact by my wife's grandfather who was a long time
Western Electric landline operator/station manager) to a single paddle
TO keyer and eventually to a dual paddle keyer.  I still roll my wrist
and use very little finger movement (obviously I don't "squeeze").

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code 
was developed especially for it.


Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is 
more important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist 
action. Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in 
any way. I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube 
demonstrating Begali (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no 
wrist movement. I've only seen it on youtube as nobody I've known since 
the Army ever sent that fast!


Eric KE6US




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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[donovanf]

Hi Fred, 


This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style 
and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending. 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI 

73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Fred Jensen"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ? 

Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of 
sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when 
commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique was 
a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent finger 
movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember other 
commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned. 
I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever 
floats your boat. 

In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the DVR, 
we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on Netflix. It 
turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better from the 
Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless played in the 
disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not sound like the 5 
KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack Phillips was depicted 
sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish looking key and sending 
Continental code while working Cape Race. If memory serves me [often 
doesn't these days], ships in that era used American Morse with North 
American stations. Again ... whatever works for you. 

73, 
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW 
Sparks NV DM09dn 
Washoe County 

On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote: 
> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished 
> Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is 
> improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars 
> and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. 
> But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years 
> of experience I have evolved into a competent operator. 
> 
> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when 
> i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was 
> correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I started 
> with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an 
> electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. 
> I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very 
> often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I 
> can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I 
> am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The 
> German High Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that 
> organization. 
> 
> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. 
> Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use 
> my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for 
> some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my 
> case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some 
> practice. 
> 
> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator 
> skill. 
> 
> 73 
> Jim 
> W9VNE/VA3VNE 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Sending CW unconventionally

[Fred Jensen]

I've always liked ZAB: "Your speed key is improperly adjusted," and ZAC: 
"Cease using speed key."  And of course, there's the ever popular and 
timeless, ZBM2: "Place a competent operator on the circuit."


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/29/2020 12:24 PM, Ingo Meyer, DK3RED wrote:

Hello Jim,

If you think this is unusual, it is. But not impossible.
Check this video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iJljUmd3jzY


Typically send with both feet (QBF),
instead of sending with left foot (QLF).

73/72 de Ingo, DK3RED - Don't forget: the fun is the power!
www.qrp4fun.de - dk3...@qrp4fun.de


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Re: [Elecraft] Sending CW unconventionally

[Ingo Meyer, DK3RED]

Hello Jim,



If you think this is unusual, it is. But not impossible.
Check this video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iJljUmd3jzY


Typically send with both feet (QBF),
instead of sending with left foot (QLF).

73/72 de Ingo, DK3RED - Don't forget: the fun is the power!
www.qrp4fun.de - dk3...@qrp4fun.de
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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[K9ZTV]

If you believe not moving the wrist is essential to proper Morse sending, watch 
Denise Stoops of KPH fame:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4scmlC7tI

Properly spaced and readable code is the goal, not wrist paralysis. 

73,

Kent  K9ZTV
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Nr4c]

By any logic there is only one winner in any contest. Except in American events 
where there have to many sub events so Everyone gets a prize. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> But...with that logic,.there was ONE winner, the rest were 
> losers.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
>> On 3/29/2020 10:47 AM, K9FD wrote:
>> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
>> top 3 no one did,
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>> So was it the radio or the operator?
>> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>> 
>> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
>>> 
>>> Wes  N7WS
>>> 
>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
 
 Mike va3mw
 
 
 On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>> > wrote:
 
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th 
 places use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
 
 Wes  N7WS
 
 
 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog
 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on SSB

[George Thornton]

I have owned a K3 forever.  I am not myself a contester except on Field Day.

Most performance measurements for the K3(s) show it still in the top group in 
terms of ability to hear weak signals adjacent to a stronger signal, an 
important measure for performance in a contest.  Until recently they were in 
the #1 position or near #1.  Now some newer rigs have barely exceeded the K3S 
performance by a very small amount, we will see how the K4 performs, I suspect 
Elecraft will be at the top of the heap again.I am not sure you can 
actually tell the difference in performance at this level.

The main criticism as I understand it with SSB is that the K3 produces a 
harsher sound on SSB than some other rigs.  While this will not interfere with 
your ability to operate, it can irritate the listener over time. 

You can moderate that somewhat through EQ settings, but I do think that some 
other rig manufacturers have been noted for more pleasant sounding audio. 

For me, long ago I found some really nice speakers (Sounds Sweet, no longer in 
business) that do an excellent job of making my K3 with updated synthesizers 
sound pleasant.   

I am looking forward to the K4 getting released and tested.

I will probably not be in the market to purchase anything major until this 
coronavirus situation stabilizes and the economy gets back to normal.  

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Dauer, Edward
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 10:48 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 on SSB

Previous posts suggest a consensus, or at least a widely-held opinion, that the 
K3 is below par on SSB.  I have owned one for years, using it more than 95% on 
CW, and on SSB in only one contest and a few casual ragchews and nets.  In what 
ways is the K3 inferior to others on SSB?  Yes, this is a question, not an 
argument.  And is the K4 designed to correct whatever those flaws may be?  I 
have not yet ordered a K4.  Knowing this info would be helpful to that 
decision.  Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR
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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Fred Jensen]

Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of 
sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when 
commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug.  Her technique was 
a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent finger 
movement.  She made zero misteaks.  It's the technique I remember other 
commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.  
I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing,  Whatever 
floats your boat.


In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the DVR, 
we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on Netflix.  It 
turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better from the 
Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless played in the 
disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not sound like the 5 
KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack Phillips was depicted 
sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish looking key and sending 
Continental code while working Cape Race.  If memory serves me [often 
doesn't these days], ships in that era used American Morse with North 
American stations.  Again ... whatever works for you.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:

Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished 
Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is 
improper procedure  to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars 
and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. 
But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years 
of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.

  Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when 
i send CW.  She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was 
correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse  operator. I started 
with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an 
electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I 
probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. 
But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send 
with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It 
is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High 
Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.

To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not 
me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my 
foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some 
years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case 
it was RF  (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice.

I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator 
skill.

73
Jim
W9VNE/VA3VNE



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[Elecraft] K4 Update: Transmit Features -- Emphasis on SSB

[Wayne Burdick]

As Eric alluded to, the entire Elecraft design team is safely working from 
home. We're busy adding new capabilities to the K4 and testing it in real-world 
conditions. (If it weren't for the lock-down, I and other early users would 
still be inviting operators over to try it. Previous demonstrations have led to 
amazement over the sound of the receive audio quality, among other reactions.)

With its new, faster DSP, versatile architecture, large display, and 
essentially unlimited code space, the K4 can offer features that go far beyond 
what we've been able to offer before.

Here's a sampling of what this will mean for SSB users:

*** Optimal audio 

The K4's RX and TX passband in SSB modes can be configured to be flat from 
below 50 Hz to over 4 kHz, with none of the drawbacks of crystal filters 
(delay, ripple, passband edge effects). Easy to use graphic TX/RX EQ and other 
bandwidth controls allow the operator to tailor the response per-mode and for 
different microphones. The overall effect is full, rich audio in both transmit 
and receive -- the latter in full stereo.

Wider transmit and receive bandwidths can also be configured for digital audio 
modes, ESSB, and AM, at the operator's discretion.

*** Exceptional ALC performance

The K4 uses a new ALC system designed to completely eliminate power overshoot 
and varying loop dynamics. This makes it both easier to adjust and more 
compatible with external amplifiers.

*** Multi-parameter transmit metering

In voice modes, the K4 provides clear bar graph displays of all four transmit 
parameters simultaneously: power output, SWR, ALC, and compression (processing 
level). Real-time numeric readouts of power, SWR, supply voltage/current, and 
PA temperature are also available.

*** Foolproof split transmit indication

You'll never lose track of whether you're in SPLIT mode with the K4: all four 
transmit bar graphs are grouped either on the left (non-split, i.e. VFO A = TX) 
or right (split, VFO B = TX). TX icons are also clear and unambiguous.

The K4 also allows full cross-band/cross-mode operation in both split and 
non-split.

*** Versatile audio I/O

There are mic and headphone jacks on both the front and rear panels. Some 
operators prefer to use the rear panel connections to avoid cluttering the 
operating position. Audio for both voice and data modes can be either analog 
(LINE in/out) or digital (via USB or Ethernet). 

*** Large DVR memory

The digital voice recorder draws on the K4's large pool of flash memory, 
allowing virtually unlimited expansion for both transmit and receive purposes. 
There are also new, easy to use playback controls.

*** Redesigned PA stages

All transmit stages have been upgraded, with improved biasing, parametric 
monitoring, and T/R sequencing. Hardware is also in place to support 
closed-loop amplifier IMD optimization, both internally and externally.

*** Support for future operating modes

With DSP and MCU horsepower to burn, we'll be able to add new voice and data 
modes in the future (and even new bands). The K4 is designed from the ground up 
for extensibility in both hardware and software.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



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[Elecraft] DL2FI SK

[Ingo Meyer, DK3RED]

Very sad news from his son:

After a long illness, QRPeter, DL2FI, put the key out of his hand forever on the evening 
of March 28, 2020!


In deep sorrow

vy 73 de Nik, DL7NIK
QRPproject
where power and intelligence unite
http://www.qrpproject.de

Original here:


I mourn for a real friend!

73/72 de Ingo, DK3RED - Don't forget: the fun is the power!
www.qrp4fun.de - dk3...@qrp4fun.de
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... +1

[Bill Steffey NY9H]

Once upon a time there was a radio design that would be the LAST RADIO 
you ever needed... and its receiver design was way far ahead of then 
current "top 3 " designs.  No  old Tenneessee Technical...  it was 
Ten Tec Orion  It was the 'first" to revert back to old "not triple 
conversion"  designs.    Another oldie was Squire Sanders ( check google 
)...lools like similar design


Ten Tec had IT. if ONLY they would have bothered to spend the bucks 
for a programmer to build a decent interface.  I had one on order, and 
drove down & visited the TenTec hamfest /factor tour and Orion Debut  
,,, the set was NOT in the tent as it was inside being checked out, it 
had "checked out" while being demonstrated.


I later cancelled my order , as was the employment of the receiver 
designer   The receiver was GREAT , too bad the rest of the radio 
was not.


another leader that got lost.

bill/3


On 3/29/2020 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Charles,



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand.


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more.


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again,
especially for the most competitive SSB operators.


73
Frank
W3LPL




- Original Message -

From: "Charles Sells" 
To: "K9FD" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:39:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

Merv,

I am curious. If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place?

73
Charles
W4PPP


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of the top 3 
no one did,
and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places use
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes N7WS



On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018

participant teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Carl, 


A reminder about this thread, its not about the performance of the K3, 
its about the preferences of highly competitive contesters who have 
many excellent choices in the marketplace. Arguably more choices 
than ever before. 


Rather than getting into detailed discussions about specific performance 
parameters, let me just suggest that you do what we do at W3LPL 
during every SSB contest. Set up a K3 for SSB using the best 
parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up any other top-of-the-line 
radio next to it. The comparison in received SSB audio quality is stark. 
When digging weak -- often distorted -- signals out of noise and extreme 
adjacent channel interference, overall receiver audio is extremely important. 


Do the same test with SSB transmitted audio quality by setting up a "blind 
test." Use the best K3 parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up 
any other top-of-the-line radio next to it. Ask several very competitive 
SSB contesters to listen to transmissions from both radios. Don't tell 
them advance which radio is which, just tell them Radio A and Radio B. 
I guarantee you that no competitive contester will prefer K3 transmitted 
SSB audio over any of the other top-of-the-line radios in a blind test. 


It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the 
K4. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Carl Yaffey"  
To: donov...@starpower.net, Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 5:35:15 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver audio? 
Transmitter EQ? 







On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 


Charles, 



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 












Carl Yaffey K8NU 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on SSB

[Rick NK7I]

Ah, the brand wars re-emerge again...

While every brand must be tailored to the operators voice and use (rag chew vs 
DXing), it has been my observation that the K3 is certainly a cleaner 
transmitter on phone than most Yaesu transmitters which are generally wider 
using both side bands (easily seen on a P3) if not precisely set up.   Some 
contesters prefer that, as it ‘opens up’ bandwidth, giving them a clear space 
to call. 

It’s either a ‘feature’ of how the Yaesu is set up or several poor operators or 
the brand.  I don’t suggest the brand at all anymore, when asked. 

The Anan and Flex are among the cleanest, sheer cliff walls of audio. 

Rick NK7I

Small phone keyboard, smell Czech corruptions are inevitable

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Dauer, Edward  wrote:
> 
> Previous posts suggest a consensus, or at least a widely-held opinion, that 
> the K3 is below par on SSB.  I have owned one for years, using it more than 
> 95% on CW, and on SSB in only one contest and a few casual ragchews and nets. 
>  In what ways is the K3 inferior to others on SSB?  Yes, this is a question, 
> not an argument.  And is the K4 designed to correct whatever those flaws may 
> be?  I have not yet ordered a K4.  Knowing this info would be helpful to that 
> decision.  Tnx,
> 
> Ted, KN1CBR
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Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[EricJ]

Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code 
was developed especially for it.


Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is 
more important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist 
action. Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in 
any way. I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube 
demonstrating Begali (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no 
wrist movement. I've only seen it on youtube as nobody I've known since 
the Army ever sent that fast!


Eric KE6US

On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:

Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished 
Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is 
improper procedure  to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars 
and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. 
But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years 
of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.

  Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when 
i send CW.  She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was 
correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse  operator. I started 
with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an 
electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I 
probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. 
But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send 
with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It 
is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High 
Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.

To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not 
me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my 
foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some 
years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case 
it was RF  (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice.

I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator 
skill.

73
Jim
W9VNE/VA3VNE

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

There is a difference in the K3 receiver audio quality and the K3S 
receiver audio quality.  Perhaps that is the reason the K3 is not 
preferred for SSB.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 3/29/2020 12:35 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote:

Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver audio? 
Transmitter EQ?



On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Charles,



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand.


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more.


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again,
especially for the most competitive SSB operators.


73
Frank
W3LPL


Carl Yaffey  K8NU
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Safe Operating PA Temperature

[Burt via Elecraft]

 Why use another heat sink ?

On Sunday, March 29, 2020, 11:16:31 AM EDT, Tim McDonough N9PUZ 
 wrote:  
 
 I'm curious, have people been seeing these high tempts indoors or 
outdoors? I notice a significant temperature difference with my KX2 when 
operating outdoors by just keeping it in the shade. I do have a third 
party heatsink.

Tim N9PUZ
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[Elecraft] K3 on SSB

[Dauer, Edward]

Previous posts suggest a consensus, or at least a widely-held opinion, that the 
K3 is below par on SSB.  I have owned one for years, using it more than 95% on 
CW, and on SSB in only one contest and a few casual ragchews and nets.  In what 
ways is the K3 inferior to others on SSB?  Yes, this is a question, not an 
argument.  And is the K4 designed to correct whatever those flaws may be?  I 
have not yet ordered a K4.  Knowing this info would be helpful to that 
decision.  Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Carl Yaffey]

Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver audio? 
Transmitter EQ? 


> On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Charles, 
> 
> 
> 
> The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
> gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 
> 
> 
> The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
> much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
> revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
> especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 

Carl Yaffey  K8NU
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

Damn Charles your reading comprehension needs work

I never said at all anything about Elecraft and even said I own 3 - K3s
in my station

Get a life.

Merv,

I am curious.  If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place?

73
Charles
W4PPP


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:

I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the top 
3 no one did,
and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.

 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

 Wes  N7WS



 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:

 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog

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[Elecraft] Sending CW unconventionally

[Jim Danehy]

If you think this is unusual, it is. But not impossible.

Check this video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iJljUmd3jzY

73
Jim W9VNE/VA3VNE 



Sent from my iPhone
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[Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

[Jim Danehy]

Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished 
Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is 
improper procedure  to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars 
and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. 
But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years 
of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.

 Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when 
i send CW.  She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was 
correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse  operator. I started 
with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an 
electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I 
probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. 
But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send 
with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It 
is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High 
Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.

To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not 
me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my 
foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some 
years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case 
it was RF  (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice. 

I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator 
skill.

73
Jim
W9VNE/VA3VNE 

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Charles, 



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 




- Original Message -

From: "Charles Sells"  
To: "K9FD"  
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:39:40 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Merv, 

I am curious. If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place? 

73 
Charles 
W4PPP 


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote: 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the 
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, 
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping 
side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv 
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of the top 
>> 3 no one did, 
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS 
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
 
 Mike va3mw 
 
 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  > wrote: 
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places 
 use 
 one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
 
 Wes N7WS 
 
 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
 participant teams used. 
 > 
 > Lots of K3. 
 > 
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
 > 
 > Paul 
 > W6PNG/M0SNA 
 > www.nomadic.blog 
 
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>>> __ 
>>> Elecraft mailing list 
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>>> Message delivered to merv.k...@gmail.com 
>> __ 
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>> Message delivered to w6...@yahoo.com 

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Tony 


Any of the top-of-the-line radios from Flex, Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood 
have significantly better SSB performance than the K3. 


Each of my six stations has two radios, usually a K3 and a "not K3," 
usually a Yaesu FTdx5000. During CW contests our "run" operators 
usually favor the K3, during SSB contests our "run" operators NEVER 
favor the K3. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 



-Original Message- 
From: tony@verizon.net  
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:40 PM 
To: 'donov...@starpower.net' ; 
'Elecraft@mailman.qth.net'  
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Hi Frank, 
I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs? 

Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
have a beer or two plus chat. 
N2TK, Tony 


-Original Message- 
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM 
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get to 
WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
much better SSB performance. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message - 

From: "K9FD"  
To: "Paul Gacek"  
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing any 
longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv 
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of 
>> the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS 
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
 
 Mike va3mw 
 
 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  > wrote: 
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th 
 places use one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
 
 Wes N7WS 
 
 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
 participant teams used. 
 > 
 > Lots of K3. 
 > 
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
 > 
 > Paul 
 > W6PNG/M0SNA 
 > www.nomadic.blog 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9ZTV]

He is not saying K3s are losers, he is saying statistics can be interpreted to 
indicate the very opposite of what is intended.

73,

Kent  K9ZTV

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Charles Sells  wrote:
> 
> Merv,
> 
> I am curious.  If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the 
> Elecraft Reflector message board in the first place?
> 
> 73
> Charles
> W4PPP
> 
> 
> On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:
> 
> I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.
> 
> when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,
> 
> I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.
> 
> Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
> 3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
> class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
> and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
> side of downhill.
> 
> 73 Merv K9FD
>> Merv
>> 
>> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
>> tell you!
>> 
>> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
>> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
>> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
>> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
>> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess 
>> 
>> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams 
>> placing. I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.
>> 
>> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
>> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!
>> 
>> Stats are fun.
>> 
>> Paul Gacek
>> 
>>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:
>>> 
>>> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
>>> top 3 no one did,
>>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>>> So was it the radio or the operator?
>>> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>>> 
>>> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>>> 
>>> 
 Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
 Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
 
 Wes  N7WS
 
> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
> 
> Mike va3mw
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > > wrote:

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[N2TK via Elecraft]

Hi Frank,
I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs?

Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
have a beer or two plus chat.
N2TK, Tony
 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get to 
WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
much better SSB performance. 


73
Frank
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD" 
To: "Paul Gacek" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing any 
longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of 
>> the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
 
 Mike va3mw
 
 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  > wrote: 
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th 
 places use one K3 and something else for the second radio.
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
 
 Wes N7WS
 
 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used. 
 > 
 > Lots of K3. 
 > 
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 > 
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog
 
 __
 Elecraft mailing list
 Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
 Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
 Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 
 
 This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this 
 email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
 va...@portcredit.net 
>>> __
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this 
>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
>>> merv.k...@gmail.com
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>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
>> w6...@yahoo.com

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Charles Sells]

Merv,

I am curious.  If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place?

73
Charles
W4PPP


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:

I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD
> Merv
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you!
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess 
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!
> 
> Stats are fun.
> 
> Paul Gacek
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:
>> 
>> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
>> top 3 no one did,
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>> So was it the radio or the operator?
>> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>> 
>> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
>>> 
>>> Wes  N7WS
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
 
 Mike va3mw
 
 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  > wrote:
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th 
 places use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
 
 Wes  N7WS
 
 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog
 
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 This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
 Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>>> __
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>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>> Message delivered to merv.k...@gmail.com
>> __
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>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to 
get to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as 
the K3. Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards 
radios with much better SSB performance. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD"  
To: "Paul Gacek"  
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the 
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, 
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping 
side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv 
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of the top 
>> 3 no one did, 
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS 
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
 
 Mike va3mw 
 
 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  > wrote: 
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places 
 use 
 one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
 
 Wes N7WS 
 
 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
 participant teams used. 
 > 
 > Lots of K3. 
 > 
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
 > 
 > Paul 
 > W6PNG/M0SNA 
 > www.nomadic.blog 
 
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 Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
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>> __ 
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>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net 
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
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Help: 

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the top 
3 no one did,
and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.

 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

 Wes  N7WS



 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:

 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

WRTC competitors must be highly competitive on both CW and SSB. 


If you survey the most competitive contesters about their favorite 
(i.e., most effective) SSB radio you probably won't find a single 
contester that favors the K3. In fact, they would favor any of other 
manufacturer over Elecraft. 


CW is a different story where the K3 really shines as the favorite 
radio among the most competitive contesters. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Wes"  
To: "Michael Walker"  
Cc: "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"  
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 3:05:58 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 

Wes N7WS 

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
> 
> Mike va3mw 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  > wrote: 
> 
> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
> 
> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places use 
> one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
> 
> So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
> 
> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
> 
> Wes N7WS 
> 
> 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
> participant teams used. 
> > 
> > Lots of K3. 
> > 
> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
> > 
> > Paul 
> > W6PNG/M0SNA 
> > www.nomadic.blog 
> 
> __ 
> Elecraft mailing list 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

Right on Bill,  the radio has only a small part to play in these contests,
if it provides the basic operation thats all thats needed,  the operator
is the key.   They all are as equal as possible with the same antennas
same locations etc.
Contests for a number of years at K4VX multi-multi and I observed and
learned the operator was the winning key.
Have seen good operators sit down with a "poor" radio and make double
the contacts another op with the best radio available made.

I was addressing the use of Elecraft being with mostly "losers" in jest,
seems many are out of work and nothing to do but think seriously,
many have lost all sense of humor and reading comprehension as well,


This is a senseless comparison. In a NASCAR race, it’s driver/car against 
driver/car. But with radio contests it’s only operator against operator. 
There’s no easy way to play radio against radio. Nowhere in the log for radio 
mfg to be logged.

Maybe a new contest.  Exchange might be RS(T), first letter of mfg name, and 
model number; like “59 E K3S”. I feel sorry for guys using some Yeasu rigs!

QWH?

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill



On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Wes  wrote:

Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
participant teams used.
>
> Lots of K3.
>
> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>
> Paul
> W6PNG/M0SNA
> www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Don Wilhelm]

Since WRTC operators are already considered top-notch, I would interpret 
that data as indicating almost half of the rigs used by top operators 
are the Elecraft K3/K3S.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/29/2020 10:32 AM, John K9UWA wrote:


I get 66  Elecraft K3 radios out of a possible 126. That leaves 60 radios total 
split
between the Other Companies Radios.
John k9uwa



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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

Yes, and isnt that radical,  what a thought,  a pair of guys were better 
than

everyone else.
Its called exceptionalism.   It actually works.

But...with that logic,.there was ONE winner, the rest were 
losers.


73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/29/2020 10:47 AM, K9FD wrote:
SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out 
of the top 3 no one did,

and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.


Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


    FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were 
using.


    You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 
7th places use

    one K3 and something else for the second radio.

    So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

    Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

    Wes  N7WS


    On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
    > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
    participant teams used.
    >
    > Lots of K3.
    >
    > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
    >
    > Paul
    > W6PNG/M0SNA
    > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Nr4c]

This is a senseless comparison. In a NASCAR race, it’s driver/car against 
driver/car. But with radio contests it’s only operator against operator. 
There’s no easy way to play radio against radio. Nowhere in the log for radio 
mfg to be logged. 

Maybe a new contest.  Exchange might be RS(T), first letter of mfg name, and 
model number; like “59 E K3S”. I feel sorry for guys using some Yeasu rigs! 

QWH?

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Wes  wrote:
> 
> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
> 
> Wes  N7WS
> 
>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
>> 
>> Mike va3mw
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > > wrote:
>> 
>>FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
>> 
>>You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
>> use
>>one K3 and something else for the second radio.
>> 
>>So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
>> 
>>Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
>> 
>>Wes  N7WS
>> 
>> 
>>On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
>>> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
>>participant teams used.
>>>
>>> Lots of K3.
>>>
>>> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> W6PNG/M0SNA
>>> www.nomadic.blog
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Paul Gacek via Elecraft]

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:
> 
> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
> top 3 no one did,
> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
> So was it the radio or the operator?
> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
> 
> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
> 
> 
>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
>> 
>> Wes  N7WS
>> 
>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
>>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
>>> 
>>> Mike va3mw
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
>>> 
>>> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th 
>>> places use
>>> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
>>> 
>>> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
>>> 
>>> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
>>> 
>>> Wes  N7WS
>>> 
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
>>> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
>>> participant teams used.
>>> >
>>> > Lots of K3.
>>> >
>>> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>>> >
>>> > Paul
>>> > W6PNG/M0SNA
>>> > www.nomadic.blog
>>> 
>>> __
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>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

But...with that logic,.there was ONE winner, the rest were 
losers.


73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/29/2020 10:47 AM, K9FD wrote:
SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of 
the top 3 no one did,

and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.


Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


    FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were 
using.


    You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 
7th places use

    one K3 and something else for the second radio.

    So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

    Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

    Wes  N7WS


    On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
    > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
    participant teams used.
    >
    > Lots of K3.
    >
    > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
    >
    > Paul
    > W6PNG/M0SNA
    > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Dave Sublette]

Put all the stations in the same tent and then see who wins  :-)

73,

Dave, K4TO

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 11:47 AM K9FD  wrote:

> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of
> the top 3 no one did,
> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
> So was it the radio or the operator?
> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>
> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>
>
> > Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five:
> > Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
> >
> > Wes  N7WS
> >
> > On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
> >> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
> >>
> >> Mike va3mw
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were
> >> using.
> >>
> >> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and
> >> 7th places use
> >> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
> >>
> >> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
> >>
> >> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
> >>
> >> Wes  N7WS
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> >> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
> >> participant teams used.
> >> >
> >> > Lots of K3.
> >> >
> >> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> > W6PNG/M0SNA
> >> > www.nomadic.blog
> >>
> >> __
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of 
the top 3 no one did,

and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.


Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


    FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were 
using.


    You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 
7th places use

    one K3 and something else for the second radio.

    So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

    Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

    Wes  N7WS


    On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
    > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
    participant teams used.
    >
    > Lots of K3.
    >
    > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
    >
    > Paul
    > W6PNG/M0SNA
    > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Safe Operating PA Temperature

[Tim McDonough N9PUZ]

I'm curious, have people been seeing these high tempts indoors or 
outdoors? I notice a significant temperature difference with my KX2 when 
operating outdoors by just keeping it in the shade. I do have a third 
party heatsink.


Tim N9PUZ
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Wes]

Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
participant teams used.
>
> Lots of K3.
>
> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>
> Paul
> W6PNG/M0SNA
> www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Wes]

I suppose that as a sometimes NASCAR fan, I gravitate to the top ten :-)

Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:52 AM, Paul Gacek wrote:

Wes

I think virtually all of the ~134 participants are by definition are top 
contesters and not just the top 10 of the 67 teams but you are correct that the 
top 10 aren’t dyed in the wool Elecrafters.

I did a quick mental tally and think 50% of the rigs are K3 (~67 out of 134). 
The next largest group are IC7xxx for about 17.

Paul Gacek
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog


On Mar 29, 2020, at 6:32 AM, Wes  wrote:

FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places use 
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS



On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[John K9UWA]

I get 66  Elecraft K3 radios out of a possible 126. That leaves 60 radios total 
split 
between the Other Companies Radios.
John k9uwa


On 29 Mar 2020 at 9:55, Michael Walker wrote:

> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
> 
> Mike va3mw
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  wrote:
> 
> > FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
> >
> > You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
> > use
> > one K3 and something else for the second radio.
> >
> > So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
> >
> > Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
> >
> > Wes  N7WS

John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF 
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Michael Walker]

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  wrote:

> FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
>
> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places
> use
> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
>
> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
>
> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
> participant teams used.
> >
> > Lots of K3.
> >
> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
> >
> > Paul
> > W6PNG/M0SNA
> > www.nomadic.blog
>
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Paul Gacek via Elecraft]

Wes

I think virtually all of the ~134 participants are by definition are top 
contesters and not just the top 10 of the 67 teams but you are correct that the 
top 10 aren’t dyed in the wool Elecrafters.

I did a quick mental tally and think 50% of the rigs are K3 (~67 out of 134). 
The next largest group are IC7xxx for about 17.

Paul Gacek
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 6:32 AM, Wes  wrote:
> 
> FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
> 
> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places use 
> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
> 
> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
> 
> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
> 
> Wes  N7WS
> 
> 
>> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
>> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
>> teams used.
>> 
>> Lots of K3.
>> 
>> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>> 
>> Paul
>> W6PNG/M0SNA
>> www.nomadic.blog
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Wes]

FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places use 
one K3 and something else for the second radio.


So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:

If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Bob Gibson via Elecraft]

This doesn't happen anymore..Not in the last ten years..Turn your K3 on and 
call CQ!!  This helps with being bored.. 

   73s Bob W5RG
 

On Sunday, March 29, 2020, 7:48:13 AM CDT, Christian Friess 
 wrote:  
 
 "The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend"

That must have been long before the internet

73 Chris, DL2MDU

Am 29.03.2020 um 11:50 schrieb Paul Gacek via Elecraft:
> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
> teams used.
>
> Lots of K3.
>
> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>
> Paul
> W6PNG/M0SNA
> www.nomadic.blog
>
>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 8:22 PM, Barry Baines via Elecraft 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Dick:
>>
>>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Dick Dickinson  wrote:
>>>
>>> The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
>>> auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
>>> weekend.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
>>> contest events.
>> Interesting question, but there are huge differences in events:
>>
>> 1.  The NASCAR race itself is very public and the results are known at the 
>> end of the race (contest).  Such races are publicized through news media so 
>> that even those that don’t watch the race live can easily find out the 
>> results after the race. As part of the publicity, each team is described as 
>> a ‘Ford”, “GM”, “Honda”, team etc. even though the cars themselves are 
>> indistinguishable except for the label that is slapped on them.  NASCAR fans 
>> indeed have ‘brand loyalty’ and may well be influenced by racing results.
>>
>> 2  An amateur contest is conducted in closed hamshacks running for 
>> significant periods of time (over a weekend) and no one necessarily knows 
>> who is competing until logs are submitted.  Generally, no one knows 
>> (including the contestants) the results for a month or more after the event. 
>>  And when the results are announced, the contestants are described by their 
>> name/call, location and perhaps club affiliation.  No one is highlighting 
>> their equipment unless a photo is included in the article providing the 
>> contest results that provides a glimpse of their shack.
>>
>> Consequently, I seriously doubt that there are peaks in sales due to the 
>> results of specific contest events themselves.
>>
>> That said, we are seeing some equipment touted based upon advertising 
>> conducted by the manufacturers themselves:
>>
>> 1.  Flex Radio touts their “SO2R” solution for contesters and others 
>> highlighting the ease of Flex products being able to operate SO2R with 
>> relatively minimal wiring/cabling.  This includes having contesters 
>> explaining how they're benefiting competitively from Flex product offerings.
>>
>> 2.  Manufacturers are supporting DXpeditions where the manufacturers 
>> themselves publicize their support for a particular operating group from 
>> some rare location.  Both Elecraft and Flex have done this.  In addition, 
>> the DX Team publicly highlights the financial support provided by major 
>> donors, including equipping their team with the equipment that is utilized.
>>
>>
>> I can’t say that there is a direct correlation between specific contesting 
>> and DX events as having a correlation with amateur radio equipment sales.  
>> However, it is probably fair to say that manufacturers are now paying 
>> attention to contesters in helping to determine the features/bells & 
>> whistles being put into their products.  Flex in particular has been doing 
>> that with their SmartSDR development.  Their transceivers and PGXL amplifier 
>> are based in part of meeting contester preferences.  Their strategy is 
>> presumably based in part of two factors:
>>
>> 1.  Contesters are spending real $$$ on their stations to develop a 
>> competitive edge.  When your focus is on the contest and not the wallet, 
>> they’re more likely to spend money on technology that will enhance their 
>> capabilities or provide ease of finding and making QSOs.
>>
>> 2  There is indeed a ’trickle down’ impact where the capabilities introduced 
>> to support contesters becomes available to other amateur operators.  Again, 
>> Flex touts their focus on contesters because the contesters are in a sense 
>> underwriting the development effort by being ‘early adopters.’  However, 
>> once developed, features/capabilities become available to a wider audience 
>> who may be interested in taking advantage of particular new features that 
>> appeal to them.
>>
>>
>> BTW, this isn’t necessarily a new phenomena.  There has been plenty of 
>> technology developed for other markets over the past 10 years or so that 
>> have been introduced into amateur radio products (e.g. DOD/NSA-> amateur 
>> radio).    Software Defined Radio has grown tremendously because 
>> organizations with ‘real money’ 

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Christian Friess]

"The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend"

That must have been long before the internet

73 Chris, DL2MDU

Am 29.03.2020 um 11:50 schrieb Paul Gacek via Elecraft:

If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog


On Mar 28, 2020, at 8:22 PM, Barry Baines via Elecraft 
 wrote:

Dick:


On Mar 28, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Dick Dickinson  wrote:

The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend.



I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
contest events.

Interesting question, but there are huge differences in events:

1.  The NASCAR race itself is very public and the results are known at the end 
of the race (contest).  Such races are publicized through news media so that 
even those that don’t watch the race live can easily find out the results after 
the race. As part of the publicity, each team is described as a ‘Ford”, “GM”, 
“Honda”, team etc. even though the cars themselves are indistinguishable except 
for the label that is slapped on them.  NASCAR fans indeed have ‘brand loyalty’ 
and may well be influenced by racing results.

2  An amateur contest is conducted in closed hamshacks running for significant 
periods of time (over a weekend) and no one necessarily knows who is competing 
until logs are submitted.  Generally, no one knows (including the contestants) 
the results for a month or more after the event.  And when the results are 
announced, the contestants are described by their name/call, location and 
perhaps club affiliation.  No one is highlighting their equipment unless a 
photo is included in the article providing the contest results that provides a 
glimpse of their shack.

Consequently, I seriously doubt that there are peaks in sales due to the 
results of specific contest events themselves.

That said, we are seeing some equipment touted based upon advertising conducted 
by the manufacturers themselves:

1.  Flex Radio touts their “SO2R” solution for contesters and others 
highlighting the ease of Flex products being able to operate SO2R with 
relatively minimal wiring/cabling.  This includes having contesters explaining 
how they're benefiting competitively from Flex product offerings.

2.  Manufacturers are supporting DXpeditions where the manufacturers themselves 
publicize their support for a particular operating group from some rare 
location.  Both Elecraft and Flex have done this.  In addition, the DX Team 
publicly highlights the financial support provided by major donors, including 
equipping their team with the equipment that is utilized.


I can’t say that there is a direct correlation between specific contesting and DX 
events as having a correlation with amateur radio equipment sales.  However, it is 
probably fair to say that manufacturers are now paying attention to contesters in 
helping to determine the features/bells & whistles being put into their 
products.  Flex in particular has been doing that with their SmartSDR development.  
Their transceivers and PGXL amplifier are based in part of meeting contester 
preferences.  Their strategy is presumably based in part of two factors:

1.  Contesters are spending real $$$ on their stations to develop a competitive 
edge.  When your focus is on the contest and not the wallet, they’re more 
likely to spend money on technology that will enhance their capabilities or 
provide ease of finding and making QSOs.

2  There is indeed a ’trickle down’ impact where the capabilities introduced to 
support contesters becomes available to other amateur operators.  Again, Flex 
touts their focus on contesters because the contesters are in a sense 
underwriting the development effort by being ‘early adopters.’  However, once 
developed, features/capabilities become available to a wider audience who may 
be interested in taking advantage of particular new features that appeal to 
them.


BTW, this isn’t necessarily a new phenomena.  There has been plenty of technology 
developed for other markets over the past 10 years or so that have been introduced 
into amateur radio products (e.g. DOD/NSA-> amateur radio).Software Defined 
Radio has grown tremendously because organizations with ‘real money’ underwrite 
technology and product development that later gets introduced into the amateur 
radio market.


FWIW,

Barry Baines, WD4ASW
Keller, TX






As ever,

Dick - KA5KKT



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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Paul Gacek via Elecraft]

If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA 
www.nomadic.blog

> On Mar 28, 2020, at 8:22 PM, Barry Baines via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dick:
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Dick Dickinson  wrote:
>> 
>> The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
>> auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
>> weekend.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
>> contest events.
> 
> Interesting question, but there are huge differences in events:
> 
> 1.  The NASCAR race itself is very public and the results are known at the 
> end of the race (contest).  Such races are publicized through news media so 
> that even those that don’t watch the race live can easily find out the 
> results after the race. As part of the publicity, each team is described as a 
> ‘Ford”, “GM”, “Honda”, team etc. even though the cars themselves are 
> indistinguishable except for the label that is slapped on them.  NASCAR fans 
> indeed have ‘brand loyalty’ and may well be influenced by racing results.  
> 
> 2  An amateur contest is conducted in closed hamshacks running for 
> significant periods of time (over a weekend) and no one necessarily knows who 
> is competing until logs are submitted.  Generally, no one knows (including 
> the contestants) the results for a month or more after the event.  And when 
> the results are announced, the contestants are described by their name/call, 
> location and perhaps club affiliation.  No one is highlighting their 
> equipment unless a photo is included in the article providing the contest 
> results that provides a glimpse of their shack.
> 
> Consequently, I seriously doubt that there are peaks in sales due to the 
> results of specific contest events themselves.
> 
> That said, we are seeing some equipment touted based upon advertising 
> conducted by the manufacturers themselves:
> 
> 1.  Flex Radio touts their “SO2R” solution for contesters and others 
> highlighting the ease of Flex products being able to operate SO2R with 
> relatively minimal wiring/cabling.  This includes having contesters 
> explaining how they're benefiting competitively from Flex product offerings. 
> 
> 2.  Manufacturers are supporting DXpeditions where the manufacturers 
> themselves publicize their support for a particular operating group from some 
> rare location.  Both Elecraft and Flex have done this.  In addition, the DX 
> Team publicly highlights the financial support provided by major donors, 
> including equipping their team with the equipment that is utilized.  
> 
> 
> I can’t say that there is a direct correlation between specific contesting 
> and DX events as having a correlation with amateur radio equipment sales.  
> However, it is probably fair to say that manufacturers are now paying 
> attention to contesters in helping to determine the features/bells & whistles 
> being put into their products.  Flex in particular has been doing that with 
> their SmartSDR development.  Their transceivers and PGXL amplifier are based 
> in part of meeting contester preferences.  Their strategy is presumably based 
> in part of two factors:
> 
> 1.  Contesters are spending real $$$ on their stations to develop a 
> competitive edge.  When your focus is on the contest and not the wallet, 
> they’re more likely to spend money on technology that will enhance their 
> capabilities or provide ease of finding and making QSOs.
> 
> 2  There is indeed a ’trickle down’ impact where the capabilities introduced 
> to support contesters becomes available to other amateur operators.  Again, 
> Flex touts their focus on contesters because the contesters are in a sense 
> underwriting the development effort by being ‘early adopters.’  However, once 
> developed, features/capabilities become available to a wider audience who may 
> be interested in taking advantage of particular new features that appeal to 
> them.
> 
> 
> BTW, this isn’t necessarily a new phenomena.  There has been plenty of 
> technology developed for other markets over the past 10 years or so that have 
> been introduced into amateur radio products (e.g. DOD/NSA-> amateur radio).   
>  Software Defined Radio has grown tremendously because organizations with 
> ‘real money’ underwrite technology and product development that later gets 
> introduced into the amateur radio market.
> 
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> Keller, TX
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As ever,
>> 
>> Dick - KA5KKT
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Follow Up Question: Amateur Radio and Society (extra credit)

[David Gilbert]

Do you have some sort of agenda here or are you just posting random off 
topic questions because you're bored?  This one makes no sense at all.


Dave   AB7E


On 3/28/2020 8:50 PM, Dick Dickinson wrote:

Is there are correlation between the growth of Radio Sport and the increased
polarization of society?



As ever,

Dick - KA5KKT

  


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