Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Most of the "cans" I used in the 50's had a flat metal disk diaphragm that
vibrated in the field of a pair of magnets behind it. They had a pronounced
"peak" in their audio response in the 1 to 1.5 kHz (kc/s to be
period-correct) range. 

I, too, often just laid them on the table while working around the operating
room at K6USA (Ft. Ord Army MARS station).

The R.O. on the SS Californian used to wind up his magnetic detector and
listen to traffic from his cans laying on the operating table while he fell
asleep in his bed after his shift ended for the night. They estimate it was
just a few minutes at most after his detector wound down and the signals
went quiet before the CQD/SOS started blasting out from nearby MGY (SS
Titanic). That's why she never responded.  

73 Ron AC7AC


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred
Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 12:20 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

OK, this is probably a good place to ask:

When trying to copy a weak-ish signal in noise and "other stuff" in the
50's, one of my crewmates at the coastal marine station told me to lay the
cans on the desk, face up.  It works.  I don't know why, maybe someone here
knows.  Surprisingly, I generally didn't need to turn the gain up much if at
all.

The receiver I used most on our HF frequencies was a brand new Collins 51J4.
The military version was the R-388A.  It had 6 and 3 KHz mech filters, and a
separate, adjustable crystal filter.  Did not cover 500 Kcs which was
particularly noise and full of signals at night, however the trick worked on
those receivers too, so it wasn't just the mech filter.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Sparks NV DM09dn

- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Walter Underwood]

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Matt Murphy  wrote:
> 
> In terms of the phase shift introduced by filters, I assume the distortion
> introduced by the filter is commensurate with the steepness of the skirts?

When designing an analog filter, you can optimize the amplitude response
(Chebyshev or Elliptic) or the phase response (Bessel), or a compromise
(Butterworth).

Digital filters can optimize both the amplitude and phase response (FIR),
but they add delay in the time domain.

Once again, no free lunch in physics.

The textbook for my analog filter class was “Analog Filter Design” by
M. E. Van Valkenburg. Filters are designed by computer now, but the
math should be pretty much the same.

http://dea.unsj.edu.ar/sredes/Biblioauxi/260360960-Analogue-Filter-Design.pdf 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Fred Jensen]

OK, this is probably a good place to ask:

When trying to copy a weak-ish signal in noise and "other stuff" in the 
50's, one of my crewmates at the coastal marine station told me to lay 
the cans on the desk, face up.  It works.  I don't know why, maybe 
someone here knows.  Surprisingly, I generally didn't need to turn the 
gain up much if at all.


The receiver I used most on our HF frequencies was a brand new Collins 
51J4.  The military version was the R-388A.  It had 6 and 3 KHz mech 
filters, and a separate, adjustable crystal filter.  Did not cover 500 
Kcs which was particularly noise and full of signals at night, however 
the trick worked on those receivers too, so it wasn't just the mech filter.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Sparks NV DM09dn

- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 9/21/2016 9:43 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 6:59 AM, Bill W4ZV  wrote:


This is nothing new.  K3ZO has been doing this for about 30 years (at
least)
using wide filters and his ears as DSP.


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Matt Murphy]

> Now we're getting to the good part of this thread, which I've found quite
illuminating, because it explains user preferences for one radio over
another that aren't obvious. Thanks to Will, Guy, and Bill for their very
useful contributions to the discussion.

I agree, this is a very interesting topic.  I've heard some lore about the
TS-830 and 930, and the Yaesu FT-990 having very desirable receiver
characteristics for hearing weak signals in pileups not necessarily due
to a specific design goal or commensurate with minimizing close-in IMD,
 but as a byproduct of the overall receiver design whose distortion
characteristics happen to work nicely in a pileup.

In terms of the phase shift introduced by filters, I assume the distortion
introduced by the filter is commensurate with the steepness of the skirts?



On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Jim Brown 
wrote:

> On Wed,9/21/2016 3:59 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
>> This is nothing new.  K3ZO has been doing this for about 30 years (at
>> least)
>> using wide filters and his ears as DSP.  I did this long ago with a
>> TS-930S
>> using SSB filters with CW VBT fully engaged which shifts two IF filters in
>> opposite directions giving a broad overall response but peaked in the
>> center.  See K3ZO's comments here:
>>
>
> Now we're getting to the good part of this thread, which I've found quite
> illuminating, because it explains user preferences for one radio over
> another that aren't obvious. Thanks to Will, Guy, and Bill for their very
> useful contributions to the discussion.
>
> There's another VERY important factor related to bandwidth -- when we
> narrow the bandwidth to copy a very weak signal buried in noise (as opposed
> to QRM), the filter tends to ring at its skirts, making it more difficult
> to copy rather than easier. I find this to be true independent of which
> filter alignment I've chosen, and it's predicted entirely by classic filter
> theory. The K2, which sounds great when listening through its TX filter,
> has a multi-element crystal filter that it realigns to vary the bandwidth,
> sounds just awful when set for narrow SSB bandwidths. It's all due to the
> extreme phase shift in those filters.
>
> As another example from my work in pro audio, I was hired to try to clean
> some really nasty buzz out of a "jailhouse" recording. This was in the late
> '70s, and DSP didn't exist. My tool was a very high quality, very narrow
> tunable notch filter with high and low pass filters, and I passed the
> recording though it a half dozen times to attack the harmonics of the buzz.
> With each pass, I reduced the buzz, but I also introduced more phase shift.
> So as the signal to noise improved, the intelligibility degraded.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to m...@nq6n.com
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,9/21/2016 3:59 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:

This is nothing new.  K3ZO has been doing this for about 30 years (at least)
using wide filters and his ears as DSP.  I did this long ago with a TS-930S
using SSB filters with CW VBT fully engaged which shifts two IF filters in
opposite directions giving a broad overall response but peaked in the
center.  See K3ZO's comments here:


Now we're getting to the good part of this thread, which I've found 
quite illuminating, because it explains user preferences for one radio 
over another that aren't obvious. Thanks to Will, Guy, and Bill for 
their very useful contributions to the discussion.


There's another VERY important factor related to bandwidth -- when we 
narrow the bandwidth to copy a very weak signal buried in noise (as 
opposed to QRM), the filter tends to ring at its skirts, making it more 
difficult to copy rather than easier. I find this to be true independent 
of which filter alignment I've chosen, and it's predicted entirely by 
classic filter theory. The K2, which sounds great when listening through 
its TX filter, has a multi-element crystal filter that it realigns to 
vary the bandwidth, sounds just awful when set for narrow SSB 
bandwidths. It's all due to the extreme phase shift in those filters.


As another example from my work in pro audio, I was hired to try to 
clean some really nasty buzz out of a "jailhouse" recording. This was in 
the late '70s, and DSP didn't exist. My tool was a very high quality, 
very narrow tunable notch filter with high and low pass filters, and I 
passed the recording though it a half dozen times to attack the 
harmonics of the buzz. With each pass, I reduced the buzz, but I also 
introduced more phase shift. So as the signal to noise improved, the 
intelligibility degraded.


73, Jim K9YC

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

As a 99.99% CW op, I prefer a fairly wide bandwidth - 2 kHz or so - when 
copying, especially with a weak signal. I attribute that to the gray-matter 
filter between my ears that can better detect the CW signal in wider-band noise 
rather than in a noise spectrum limited to frequencies near those of the 
signal. 

It works better for me even if there are other signals inside the bandpass. 
Then it becomes like listening to someone in a room full of people speaking to 
each other. Quickly my gray matter can filter out the extraneous chatter as 
long as no one voice is extremely loud, like someone standing next to you at a 
party yelling at someone across the room. In that case I prefer using the notch 
filter or even the limiter to suppress a "loudmouth" before narrowing the 
bandwidth.

I used to avoid AGC because of 'pumping', but got back into the habit with the 
Elecraft rigs because their AGC systems are extremely resistant to pumping.  

It was easier in the past because many signals had distinctive differences 
caused by hand-sent keying which made it easier to pick them out against a 
cacophony of others. Now, of course, most signals are pristine and produced by 
keyers although there are large variations in speeds, so it's still easier for 
me to use a wider bandwidth.

73, Ron AC7AC  

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Walter 
Underwood
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:43 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

Analog filters have phase delay. That would be stronger with a narrower filter. 
Also, the on-off CW signal has sidebands (the harmonics of the square wave). 
Maybe a narrower filter sounds “softer”? I have no idea what “full-bodied CW” 
means, of course.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[WILLIE BABER]

Well, I didn't mention who it was that made the comment about what we now can 
call the k3zo method.  However, the guy who sees an advantage in a 3 khz 
roofing filter can do just that!!

73, wj9b

CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/


On Wed, 9/21/16, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3
 To: "Bill W4ZV" 
 Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" 
 Date: Wednesday, September 21, 2016, 10:43 AM
 
 On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at
 6:59 AM, Bill W4ZV 
 wrote:
 
 > This is nothing
 new.  K3ZO has been doing this for about 30 years (at
 > least)
 > using wide
 filters and his ears as DSP.
 >
 
 Some people really CAN do
 this. For some years while he was living in NC, I
 had the pleasure of operating with W2CS at the
 NY4A multi/multi sessions.
 There were some
 number of neat things he could do, that I could not make
 happen in my brain, including the K3ZO method
 and typing 100% copy well
 behind the signal
 while carrying on an unrelated conversation.
 
 I think I figured out I
 can't copy CW and chew gum at the same time or
 something pretty close. So beware of
 presentation of methodology as general
 technique, that actually requires some
 not-so-common physical talents to
 pull off.
 I *do* know that K3ZO and W2CS *can* do that, and I also
 know
 that I *cannot*. And I also know that
 my chances of typing CW well behind
 the
 signal and carrying on a separate conversation in the room
 about how
 deep to plant radials at the same
 time are simply, factually, ZERO.  :>)
 
 I do know how to turn K3
 diversity into a sound stage and spread signals in
 a pile up around an audio "horizon".
 So I'm not totally devoid.  :>)
 
 73, Guy K2AV
 __
 Elecraft mailing list
 Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
 Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
 Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 
 This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
 Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
 Message delivered to wlba...@bellsouth.net
 
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 6:59 AM, Bill W4ZV  wrote:

> This is nothing new.  K3ZO has been doing this for about 30 years (at
> least)
> using wide filters and his ears as DSP.
>

Some people really CAN do this. For some years while he was living in NC, I
had the pleasure of operating with W2CS at the NY4A multi/multi sessions.
There were some number of neat things he could do, that I could not make
happen in my brain, including the K3ZO method and typing 100% copy well
behind the signal while carrying on an unrelated conversation.

I think I figured out I can't copy CW and chew gum at the same time or
something pretty close. So beware of presentation of methodology as general
technique, that actually requires some not-so-common physical talents to
pull off. I *do* know that K3ZO and W2CS *can* do that, and I also know
that I *cannot*. And I also know that my chances of typing CW well behind
the signal and carrying on a separate conversation in the room about how
deep to plant radials at the same time are simply, factually, ZERO.  :>)

I do know how to turn K3 diversity into a sound stage and spread signals in
a pile up around an audio "horizon". So I'm not totally devoid.  :>)

73, Guy K2AV
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Bill W4ZV]

WILLIE BABER wrote
> It wasn't my term.  But I think "full-bodied" cw means a slightly wider
> I-F to establish background noise that some ops want to hear, particularly
> if  the receiver has exceptional gain distribution and in-band IMD, which
> the latest Icoms do have.  This gives articulation to cw signal outs of a
> quiet back ground of noise, and so long as you are not dealing with an
> exceptionally strong signal nearby, hard-wired fast agc can give relative
> strength to the competing signals.  Then, a good cw op can pick out
> stations actually easier than with a 400hz filter where RIT becomes more
> necessary.  Of course on the Icom radio there is no choice but to do this
> because 3khz  is the narrowest setting, though you could ask for more DSP
> filtering.

This is nothing new.  K3ZO has been doing this for about 30 years (at least)
using wide filters and his ears as DSP.  I did this long ago with a TS-930S
using SSB filters with CW VBT fully engaged which shifts two IF filters in
opposite directions giving a broad overall response but peaked in the
center.  See K3ZO's comments here:  

http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-CW-Rx-Audio-td467894.html#a467895
  
As Guy said this technique will NOT work on extremely crowded bands on the
East Coast but I have used it on 10 meters where it was not uncommon for JAs
to reply well off-frequency.  It absolutely WILL NOT work for 160 contests
loaded with S9+++ signals spaced every 200 Hz.

Interestingly enough I use this technique with APF for ultra weak signal
DXing on 160.  I set my 200 Hz filters (in diversity) to engage at 400 Hz
(i.e. the DSP filter is 400 Hz but preceded by the broad shape factor 200 Hz
XTAL filter).  This gives more presence (i.e. "full-bodied" sound) to the
weak signal by allowing it to be differentiated from noise by my ear/brain
while APF is engaged.  The net result is a broad overall response but with a
very narrow ~10 dB peak in the center (from APF).  

73,  Bill  W4ZV




--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Running-stations-with-k3-tp7622672p7622733.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Walter Underwood]

Analog filters have phase delay. That would be stronger with a narrower filter. 
Also, the on-off CW signal has sidebands (the harmonics of the square wave). 
Maybe a narrower filter sounds “softer”? I have no idea what “full-bodied CW” 
means, of course.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 20, 2016, at 8:24 PM, WILLIE BABER  wrote:
> 
> It wasn't my term.  But I think "full-bodied" cw means a slightly wider I-F 
> to establish background noise that some ops want to hear, particularly if  
> the receiver has exceptional gain distribution and in-band IMD, which the 
> latest Icoms do have.  This gives articulation to cw signal outs of a quiet 
> back ground of noise, and so long as you are not dealing with an 
> exceptionally strong signal nearby, hard-wired fast agc can give relative 
> strength to the competing signals.  Then, a good cw op can pick out stations 
> actually easier than with a 400hz filter where RIT becomes more necessary.  
> Of course on the Icom radio there is no choice but to do this because 3khz  
> is the narrowest setting, though you could ask for more DSP filtering.   
> 
> So, here again, is what I mean:  set you K3 for 2.7khz and I-F DSP at 500hz 
> and tune in a s-9 signal.  Now engage your narrow cw filter (I can do 400hz, 
> 250hz, and 200hz).  Listen to the I-F back ground noise decrease relative to 
> the signal.  Notice too that  2.7 hz with 500hz of DSP sounds more 
> "full-bodied" than 400hz, 250hz, 200hz.   Of course, this is all good when 
> you are trying to hear a weak signal anyway as opposed to running a pileup of 
> stations.
> 
> My point is (or was in the discussion about this) if you like running 
> stations with an Icom you can enjoy running them in the same way with K3. But 
> what has to happen to the Icom radio when a signal like the one Guy describes 
> gets within the 3 khz roofing filter?  
> 
> On the k3 you can engage a 200 hz filter and carry on the east coast -EU 
> battle  If there is an advantage to contesting in Idaho it is that EU 
> stations from over the pole are seldom over s-9 and don't blink, you will 
> miss the EU opening, hi.  However,  I have seen east coast signals nearly peg 
> the meter of k3 a few times in 300z cwt.  
> 
> 73, Will, wj9b
> KX1, k2, so2r K3/P3
> 
> 
> CWops #1085
> CWA Advisor levels II and III
> http://cwops.org/
> 
> 
> On Tue, 9/20/16, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3
> To: "'F5vjc'" , "'Guy Olinger K2AV'" 
> 
> Cc: "'Elecraft Reflector Reflector'" 
> Date: Tuesday, September 20, 2016, 6:03 PM
> 
> A very long time ago
> (1950's) we called 'em "California
> Kilowatts" knowing
> that their driver
> stages were running a kilowatt at least and then the big
> amp following... 
> 
> On A.M. (not so much SSB then) 100% modulation
> was a starter. 150% produced
> a nice splatter
> that told everyone across the band that you were "on
> the
> air". The same with CW using very
> square wave keying that announced your
> presence over many kc/s with clicks that
> allowed everyone to read your call
> and know
> that "Big Al" (or whomever) was on his key. 
> 
> They seemed rampant on 75 and
> 20 meters. 
> 
> So the
> geography has shifted, but not the crazy interests of some
> operators.
> 
> 
> BTW, if you are interested in a 15 kW H.F. amp
> check out the "Tsunami":
> 
> http://ta5fa.blogspot.com/2013/03/15kw-hf-rf-amplifier-tube.html
> 
> I'm sure that some
> operators would use it to drive a "big" final amp,
> Hi! We
> can hope they don't find a way.
> 
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]
> On Behalf Of F5vjc
> Sent: Tuesday, September
> 20, 2016 3:01 PM
> To: Guy Olinger K2AV
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with
> k3
> 
> This is the degeneration
> of Amateur radio, yes really, it's true.  These
> signals from Eu are invariably the dirtiest
> worst you will ever hear on the
> bands,
> spewing crap all over the band.
> 
> Below...
> 
> 
> "The "full body" (whatever that
> means) CW technique will NOT work in a DX
> test I've been in (Will knows where) with
> that 45 over S9 Italian station
> running 15
> kW and a 4 element beam on 40m pointed at the US when the
> band is
> wide open, an

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[WILLIE BABER]

It wasn't my term.  But I think "full-bodied" cw means a slightly wider I-F to 
establish background noise that some ops want to hear, particularly if  the 
receiver has exceptional gain distribution and in-band IMD, which the latest 
Icoms do have.  This gives articulation to cw signal outs of a quiet back 
ground of noise, and so long as you are not dealing with an exceptionally 
strong signal nearby, hard-wired fast agc can give relative strength to the 
competing signals.  Then, a good cw op can pick out stations actually easier 
than with a 400hz filter where RIT becomes more necessary.  Of course on the 
Icom radio there is no choice but to do this because 3khz  is the narrowest 
setting, though you could ask for more DSP filtering.   

So, here again, is what I mean:  set you K3 for 2.7khz and I-F DSP at 500hz and 
tune in a s-9 signal.  Now engage your narrow cw filter (I can do 400hz, 250hz, 
and 200hz).  Listen to the I-F back ground noise decrease relative to the 
signal.  Notice too that  2.7 hz with 500hz of DSP sounds more "full-bodied" 
than 400hz, 250hz, 200hz.   Of course, this is all good when you are trying to 
hear a weak signal anyway as opposed to running a pileup of stations.

My point is (or was in the discussion about this) if you like running stations 
with an Icom you can enjoy running them in the same way with K3. But what has 
to happen to the Icom radio when a signal like the one Guy describes gets 
within the 3 khz roofing filter?  

On the k3 you can engage a 200 hz filter and carry on the east coast -EU battle 
 If there is an advantage to contesting in Idaho it is that EU stations from 
over the pole are seldom over s-9 and don't blink, you will miss the EU 
opening, hi.  However,  I have seen east coast signals nearly peg the meter of 
k3 a few times in 300z cwt.  

73, Will, wj9b
KX1, k2, so2r K3/P3


CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/


On Tue, 9/20/16, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3
 To: "'F5vjc'" , "'Guy Olinger K2AV'" 

 Cc: "'Elecraft Reflector Reflector'" 
 Date: Tuesday, September 20, 2016, 6:03 PM
 
 A very long time ago
 (1950's) we called 'em "California
 Kilowatts" knowing
 that their driver
 stages were running a kilowatt at least and then the big
 amp following... 
 
 On A.M. (not so much SSB then) 100% modulation
 was a starter. 150% produced
 a nice splatter
 that told everyone across the band that you were "on
 the
 air". The same with CW using very
 square wave keying that announced your
 presence over many kc/s with clicks that
 allowed everyone to read your call
 and know
 that "Big Al" (or whomever) was on his key. 
 
 They seemed rampant on 75 and
 20 meters. 
 
 So the
 geography has shifted, but not the crazy interests of some
 operators.
 
 
 BTW, if you are interested in a 15 kW H.F. amp
 check out the "Tsunami":
 
 http://ta5fa.blogspot.com/2013/03/15kw-hf-rf-amplifier-tube.html
 
 I'm sure that some
 operators would use it to drive a "big" final amp,
 Hi! We
 can hope they don't find a way.
 
 
 73, Ron AC7AC
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]
 On Behalf Of F5vjc
 Sent: Tuesday, September
 20, 2016 3:01 PM
 To: Guy Olinger K2AV
 Cc: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with
 k3
 
 This is the degeneration
 of Amateur radio, yes really, it's true.  These
 signals from Eu are invariably the dirtiest
 worst you will ever hear on the
 bands,
 spewing crap all over the band.
 
 Below...
 
 
 "The "full body" (whatever that
 means) CW technique will NOT work in a DX
 test I've been in (Will knows where) with
 that 45 over S9 Italian station
 running 15
 kW and a 4 element beam on 40m pointed at the US when the
 band is
 wide open, and who has parked 400 Hz
 above or below me, AND I am trying to
 copy
 an S0 (if even that strong) basement noodle antenna QRP
 station."
 
 73 F5VJC
 
 
 __
 Elecraft mailing list
 Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
 Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
 Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 
 This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
 Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
 Message delivered to wlba...@bellsouth.net
 
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

A very long time ago (1950's) we called 'em "California Kilowatts" knowing
that their driver stages were running a kilowatt at least and then the big
amp following... 

On A.M. (not so much SSB then) 100% modulation was a starter. 150% produced
a nice splatter that told everyone across the band that you were "on the
air". The same with CW using very square wave keying that announced your
presence over many kc/s with clicks that allowed everyone to read your call
and know that "Big Al" (or whomever) was on his key. 

They seemed rampant on 75 and 20 meters. 

So the geography has shifted, but not the crazy interests of some operators.


BTW, if you are interested in a 15 kW H.F. amp check out the "Tsunami":

http://ta5fa.blogspot.com/2013/03/15kw-hf-rf-amplifier-tube.html

I'm sure that some operators would use it to drive a "big" final amp, Hi! We
can hope they don't find a way. 

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of F5vjc
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:01 PM
To: Guy Olinger K2AV
Cc: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

This is the degeneration of Amateur radio, yes really, it's true.  These
signals from Eu are invariably the dirtiest worst you will ever hear on the
bands, spewing crap all over the band.

Below...


"The "full body" (whatever that means) CW technique will NOT work in a DX
test I've been in (Will knows where) with that 45 over S9 Italian station
running 15 kW and a 4 element beam on 40m pointed at the US when the band is
wide open, and who has parked 400 Hz above or below me, AND I am trying to
copy an S0 (if even that strong) basement noodle antenna QRP station."

73 F5VJC


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[F5vjc]

This is the degeneration of Amateur radio, yes really, it's true.  These
signals from Eu are invariably the dirtiest worst you will ever hear on the
bands, spewing crap all over the band.

Below...


"The "full body" (whatever that means) CW technique will NOT work in a DX
test I've been in (Will knows where) with that 45 over S9 Italian station
running 15 kW and a 4 element beam on 40m pointed at the US when the band
is wide open, and who has parked 400 Hz above or below me, AND I am trying
to copy an S0 (if even that strong) basement noodle antenna QRP station."

73 F5VJC

On 20 September 2016 at 20:45, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:

> The killer for that wide roofer approach is that loud enough stations can
> pump the hardware AGC before the signal gets to the DSP.
>
> The "full body" (whatever that means) CW technique will NOT work in a DX
> test I've been in (Will knows where) with that 45 over S9 Italian station
> running 15 kW and a 4 element beam on 40m pointed at the US when the band
> is wide open, and who has parked 400 Hz above or below me, AND I am trying
> to copy an S0 (if even that strong) basement noodle antenna QRP station.
>
> I want the skirts of the roofing filter and the DSP to COINCIDE and when I
> hit the edge of the 450 or 350 Hz, I want the skirts do a VERY sharp dive
> to oblivion. This gives me a 450 kHz running bandwidth and a 350 running
> bandwidth, which I can shift in 10 Hz steps, dropping a signal on the edge
> about 10 dB per 10 Hz step.
>
> This way I get the same excellent selectivity with a K3 that I had with my
> MP with cascaded INRAD filters in the 8 and 455 IF's. K3 is not superior to
> the MP in selectivity or audio quality, but the K3 front end and low noise
> opened up a new layer on 40 meters, going down past the DL and OK basement
> noodle QRP stations and exposing the RUSSIAN basement noodle QRP stations.
>
> We thought that was band crap listening to the MP, but turned out to be RX
> IMD, RX noise crap generated by the MP. Finally exposed by not being there
> in the K3.
>
> If my skirts do NOT dive maximally, then the 15 kW Italian is going to pump
> the K3's hardware AGC and make copy of my basement noodle QRP stations
> impossible.
>
> I do know those (so far all in the western US) who insist that the DSP
> selectivity is all they need. They might be right, out where they are.
>
> Idaho is not exactly the land of monster signals. If one really wants to do
> "full body CW" out there, a 700 Hz roofer would be a better choice to be in
> front of the DSP. Do you really want your AGC pumped by the next two or
> three stations above and below your frequency?
>
> I've spent my time with radios with too-wide high IF selectivity. NEVER
> AGAIN.
>
> Besides, having the steep diving combined selectivity converts key clicks
> to spikes, which the K3 NB and AGC circuits handle splendidly, allowing key
> click elimination, another K3 advantage trying to keep a run frequency 400
> Hz from a 45 over S9 15 kW Italian station.
>
> You think I'm kidding about 15 kW and 4 elements on 40m? Think again. Not
> kidding about 45 over 9 on a calibrated K3 S meter either. Though we *were*
> listening on a five element wide spaced (190 feet end to end) 40m quad.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 9:21 PM, WILLIE BABER 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I did M/M with a big station in the NW running Icom 7700.  Needless to
> say
> > comparison between K3 (one was on site) versus Icom radios came into
> > discussion during rest periods.  Yes, the Icom 7700 played quite well,
> > giving what some called "full-body" cw and easy to pick-out-stations
> while
> > running them.
> >
> > I like all radios...well almost all of them.  Having said that, you can
> > easily get "full-body" cw and better running of station if you simulate
> the
> > front-end of the Icom radio using K3.  To do this, set the first I-F
> filter
> > to ssb bandwidth (2.7khz) and then use the DSP to deliver 500 hz
> passband.
> > You will hear stations that are within the 2.7khz window but not quite on
> > your frequency (similar to 7700) while running stations, and without
> having
> > to fool so often with RIT.
> >
> > Once you go to 400 hz  in the first  I-F of K3 you are in serious high
> > dynamic range territory...better have a k-pod on RIT and forget about
> > "full-body" cw, which requires a wider first I-F.  Of course when you
> need
> > a narrow first I-F you can have several of them in K3.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > 73, Will, wj9b
> >
> > CWops #1085
> > CWA Advisor levels II and III
> > http://cwops.org/
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to k2av@gmail.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Jim Brown]

For one thing, you would hear more clicks with the broader filter. You 
would, of course, also hear MORE signals.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,9/20/2016 2:08 PM, Matt Murphy wrote:

Can anyone explain why zero beat CW would sound more "full bodied" with a
2.7 KHz IF than with, say, a 400 Hz IF bandwidth?



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Matt Murphy]

Interesting!

Can anyone explain why zero beat CW would sound more "full bodied" with a
2.7 KHz IF than with, say, a 400 Hz IF bandwidth?  It would seem that the
CW signal was typically narrower than either one, so there would not be any
information lost on a zero beat signal.

Is there some sort of audio harmonic that exists only when the IF bandwidth
is sufficiently wide?   Or could the wider bandwidth effectively change the
perceived audio impact of AGC (depending on band noise)?

Is there a measurement of the distortion introduced by an IF filter across
both the signal *and* the noise?  I think noise sounds better (smoother?)
with a wider IF filter bandwidth.  Of course, the purpose of the narrower
filter is to reduce IMD from nearby signals, not to make noise sound
pleasant.

I'm curious if anyone has thoughts or insights about any of the above...

73,
Matt NQ6N


On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
wrote:

> The killer for that wide roofer approach is that loud enough stations can
> pump the hardware AGC before the signal gets to the DSP.
>
> The "full body" (whatever that means) CW technique will NOT work in a DX
> test I've been in (Will knows where) with that 45 over S9 Italian station
> running 15 kW and a 4 element beam on 40m pointed at the US when the band
> is wide open, and who has parked 400 Hz above or below me, AND I am trying
> to copy an S0 (if even that strong) basement noodle antenna QRP station.
>
> I want the skirts of the roofing filter and the DSP to COINCIDE and when I
> hit the edge of the 450 or 350 Hz, I want the skirts do a VERY sharp dive
> to oblivion. This gives me a 450 kHz running bandwidth and a 350 running
> bandwidth, which I can shift in 10 Hz steps, dropping a signal on the edge
> about 10 dB per 10 Hz step.
>
> This way I get the same excellent selectivity with a K3 that I had with my
> MP with cascaded INRAD filters in the 8 and 455 IF's. K3 is not superior to
> the MP in selectivity or audio quality, but the K3 front end and low noise
> opened up a new layer on 40 meters, going down past the DL and OK basement
> noodle QRP stations and exposing the RUSSIAN basement noodle QRP stations.
>
> We thought that was band crap listening to the MP, but turned out to be RX
> IMD, RX noise crap generated by the MP. Finally exposed by not being there
> in the K3.
>
> If my skirts do NOT dive maximally, then the 15 kW Italian is going to pump
> the K3's hardware AGC and make copy of my basement noodle QRP stations
> impossible.
>
> I do know those (so far all in the western US) who insist that the DSP
> selectivity is all they need. They might be right, out where they are.
>
> Idaho is not exactly the land of monster signals. If one really wants to do
> "full body CW" out there, a 700 Hz roofer would be a better choice to be in
> front of the DSP. Do you really want your AGC pumped by the next two or
> three stations above and below your frequency?
>
> I've spent my time with radios with too-wide high IF selectivity. NEVER
> AGAIN.
>
> Besides, having the steep diving combined selectivity converts key clicks
> to spikes, which the K3 NB and AGC circuits handle splendidly, allowing key
> click elimination, another K3 advantage trying to keep a run frequency 400
> Hz from a 45 over S9 15 kW Italian station.
>
> You think I'm kidding about 15 kW and 4 elements on 40m? Think again. Not
> kidding about 45 over 9 on a calibrated K3 S meter either. Though we *were*
> listening on a five element wide spaced (190 feet end to end) 40m quad.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 9:21 PM, WILLIE BABER 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I did M/M with a big station in the NW running Icom 7700.  Needless to
> say
> > comparison between K3 (one was on site) versus Icom radios came into
> > discussion during rest periods.  Yes, the Icom 7700 played quite well,
> > giving what some called "full-body" cw and easy to pick-out-stations
> while
> > running them.
> >
> > I like all radios...well almost all of them.  Having said that, you can
> > easily get "full-body" cw and better running of station if you simulate
> the
> > front-end of the Icom radio using K3.  To do this, set the first I-F
> filter
> > to ssb bandwidth (2.7khz) and then use the DSP to deliver 500 hz
> passband.
> > You will hear stations that are within the 2.7khz window but not quite on
> > your frequency (similar to 7700) while running stations, and without
> having
> > to fool so often with RIT.
> >
> > Once you go to 400 hz  in the first  I-F of K3 you are in serious high
> > dynamic range territory...better have a k-pod on RIT and forget about
> > "full-body" cw, which requires a wider first I-F.  Of course when you
> need
> > a narrow first I-F you can have several of them in K3.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > 73, Will, wj9b
> >
> > CWops #1085
> > CWA Advisor levels II and III
> > http://cwops.org/
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > 

Re: [Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

The killer for that wide roofer approach is that loud enough stations can
pump the hardware AGC before the signal gets to the DSP.

The "full body" (whatever that means) CW technique will NOT work in a DX
test I've been in (Will knows where) with that 45 over S9 Italian station
running 15 kW and a 4 element beam on 40m pointed at the US when the band
is wide open, and who has parked 400 Hz above or below me, AND I am trying
to copy an S0 (if even that strong) basement noodle antenna QRP station.

I want the skirts of the roofing filter and the DSP to COINCIDE and when I
hit the edge of the 450 or 350 Hz, I want the skirts do a VERY sharp dive
to oblivion. This gives me a 450 kHz running bandwidth and a 350 running
bandwidth, which I can shift in 10 Hz steps, dropping a signal on the edge
about 10 dB per 10 Hz step.

This way I get the same excellent selectivity with a K3 that I had with my
MP with cascaded INRAD filters in the 8 and 455 IF's. K3 is not superior to
the MP in selectivity or audio quality, but the K3 front end and low noise
opened up a new layer on 40 meters, going down past the DL and OK basement
noodle QRP stations and exposing the RUSSIAN basement noodle QRP stations.

We thought that was band crap listening to the MP, but turned out to be RX
IMD, RX noise crap generated by the MP. Finally exposed by not being there
in the K3.

If my skirts do NOT dive maximally, then the 15 kW Italian is going to pump
the K3's hardware AGC and make copy of my basement noodle QRP stations
impossible.

I do know those (so far all in the western US) who insist that the DSP
selectivity is all they need. They might be right, out where they are.

Idaho is not exactly the land of monster signals. If one really wants to do
"full body CW" out there, a 700 Hz roofer would be a better choice to be in
front of the DSP. Do you really want your AGC pumped by the next two or
three stations above and below your frequency?

I've spent my time with radios with too-wide high IF selectivity. NEVER
AGAIN.

Besides, having the steep diving combined selectivity converts key clicks
to spikes, which the K3 NB and AGC circuits handle splendidly, allowing key
click elimination, another K3 advantage trying to keep a run frequency 400
Hz from a 45 over S9 15 kW Italian station.

You think I'm kidding about 15 kW and 4 elements on 40m? Think again. Not
kidding about 45 over 9 on a calibrated K3 S meter either. Though we *were*
listening on a five element wide spaced (190 feet end to end) 40m quad.

73, Guy K2AV



On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 9:21 PM, WILLIE BABER  wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I did M/M with a big station in the NW running Icom 7700.  Needless to say
> comparison between K3 (one was on site) versus Icom radios came into
> discussion during rest periods.  Yes, the Icom 7700 played quite well,
> giving what some called "full-body" cw and easy to pick-out-stations while
> running them.
>
> I like all radios...well almost all of them.  Having said that, you can
> easily get "full-body" cw and better running of station if you simulate the
> front-end of the Icom radio using K3.  To do this, set the first I-F filter
> to ssb bandwidth (2.7khz) and then use the DSP to deliver 500 hz passband.
> You will hear stations that are within the 2.7khz window but not quite on
> your frequency (similar to 7700) while running stations, and without having
> to fool so often with RIT.
>
> Once you go to 400 hz  in the first  I-F of K3 you are in serious high
> dynamic range territory...better have a k-pod on RIT and forget about
> "full-body" cw, which requires a wider first I-F.  Of course when you need
> a narrow first I-F you can have several of them in K3.
>
> My two cents.
>
> 73, Will, wj9b
>
> CWops #1085
> CWA Advisor levels II and III
> http://cwops.org/
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to k2av@gmail.com
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

[Elecraft] Running stations with k3

[WILLIE BABER]

Hello All,

I did M/M with a big station in the NW running Icom 7700.  Needless to say 
comparison between K3 (one was on site) versus Icom radios came into discussion 
during rest periods.  Yes, the Icom 7700 played quite well, giving what some 
called "full-body" cw and easy to pick-out-stations while running them.

I like all radios...well almost all of them.  Having said that, you can easily 
get "full-body" cw and better running of station if you simulate the front-end 
of the Icom radio using K3.  To do this, set the first I-F filter to ssb 
bandwidth (2.7khz) and then use the DSP to deliver 500 hz passband.  You will 
hear stations that are within the 2.7khz window but not quite on your frequency 
(similar to 7700) while running stations, and without having to fool so often 
with RIT.

Once you go to 400 hz  in the first  I-F of K3 you are in serious high dynamic 
range territory...better have a k-pod on RIT and forget about "full-body" cw, 
which requires a wider first I-F.  Of course when you need a narrow first I-F 
you can have several of them in K3.

My two cents.

73, Will, wj9b

CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com