estimating which
threats/characteristics are needed in real life.
Juho says that Margins does better when voters are sincere. But
I've posted,
for Juho, examples in which innoncent, nonstrategic truncation can
result in
a violation of majority rule, and create a defensive strategy
in the basic example where sincere opinions were 1000 AB,
1000 CD, 1 DB (or 1000 ABC=D, 1000 CDA=B, 1 DBA=B). The rest
of the reactions/comments are embedded below in the mail.
Juho
On Jul 31, 2007, at 7:36 , Kevin Venzke wrote:
Juho,
--- Juho [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
On Jul 29, 2007, at 2:51
On Aug 1, 2007, at 5:37 , Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
At 04:48 PM 7/31/2007, Juho wrote:
The additional (utility/preference strength related) information
that
range style ballots provide is excellent information. The only
problem is that we don't have a voting method that would both take
voting on the table. Answers to the first question
in these two environments may be somewhat different.
Juho
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by one.
I don't have a complete theory and analysis available to present.
Juho
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) and some strategically.
No such mess has been alleged specifically. Rather, Juho and others
continue to claim that a mess is created, but not *specific*
scenario that deserves the name is mentioned.
There have been examples. See e.g. the example I gave above.
Suppose we have a pizza
guarantee that people would behave the
same way with Condorcet.
Juho
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On Aug 10, 2007, at 6:08 , Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
At 04:09 PM 8/9/2007, Juho wrote:
I used term sincere roughly to refer to voters marking their
personal candidate utility values in the ballots. Or if you don't
like the word utility then we can just talk about putting
candidates
Here are some remaining comments and responses to the questions. No
new material, just confirming the presented viewpoints.
On Aug 11, 2007, at 4:37 , Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
At 05:03 PM 8/10/2007, Juho wrote:
In the light of this example it doesn't matter how the sincere
votes
that nobody expected to
win and that therefore didn't get too many negative votes would win.
Juho
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on the level of nearness.
Juho
P.S. I assume the challenge is now to elect only good compromise
candidates
On Aug 30, 2007, at 16:37 , Howard Swerdfeger wrote:
Forest W Simmons wrote:
Below where I said unlike Borda I should have said unlike D2MAC.
Neither the Borda solution nor
-winner and multi-winner systems are
alternatives to each others = both needed to cover the field properly.)
Juho
On Sep 21, 2007, at 18:22 , Howard Swerdfeger wrote:
I know that this list is primarily single winner elections but I
thought
given the low volume as of late a slight change
Second try
Begin forwarded message:
From: Juho [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 22, 2007 1:23:31 GMT+03:00
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Subject: Re: [Election-Methods] Measuring power in a multi winner
election
Some random observations on the theme.
Seats != power seems
and use 5 of its veto votes to do that (maybe all losing
parties would use some of their veto votes).
Juho
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voting alternatives.
It is also possible that they are asked to consider their strategic
options and then vote strategically. In this case the two terms can
differ a bit. One could say that the voters are now sincere but
strategic.
Juho
and marginally strategic).
Juho
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On Dec 23, 2007, at 22:52 , rob brown wrote:
On Dec 23, 2007 10:49 AM, Juho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now bak to the question. Majority vote may often not yield the
optimum outcome (from some chosen high level theoretical viewpoint)
but majority vote may well be considered to be the best
election do have impact on how the system works.
Condorcet should work ok in all phases (I don't expect strategic
votes to be a major problem).
Juho Laatu
They would be the following (assuming the Primary Election matches
the Dec. Polls):
Edwards (would beat all Republicans and Democrats
that would be more
natural and useful than the pizza examples and other regular stuff.
Juho
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pick e.g. only the best parts of both
approaches (and forget the non-working cases) and assume that they
all are valid simultaneously.
Juho
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utility. (This makes my first bullet
point above quite irrelevant from individual decision maker point of
view.)
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voters use will probably also rely on generalizations
like identifying who are the frontrunners and making one's decision
based on this. So, I was trying to compare an incomplete Condorcet
strategy to an incomplete Approval strategy.
Juho
On Dec 30, 2007, at 16:44 , Kevin Venzke wrote:
Juho
and trying to find treatment for them. At this point
the changes may cause more harm (in other areas) than benefit (in the
intended areas).
Juho
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back and either describing the burial aspect of condorcet, or by
describing the approval voting strategy as vote for every candidate
you like more than average, which requires no knowledge of the
opinions of others voters.
c'mon juho...you know better than this.
I just picked two strategies
of personal utilities then the statement is
not correct. It is valid if the overall social utility is seen as a
theoretical ideal. And if we talk about the personal _understanding_
of the overall utility.
Juho
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of
strategic voters is assumed to be equal at both sides. What will
happen if one party is more strategic than the other?
Juho
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recommended and
that are simple.
what you described for condorcet was not a strategy -- it was a
sincerity! :D
That's the good part in Condorcet. Sincerity is actually a pretty
good strategy, maybe the best in most situations.
Juho
of this? Is it a good approach to use this type of
means to reduce the strategic threats in Condorcet based systems? Can
they offer an adjustable level defence mechanism against strategic
environments/elections?
Juho
On Jan 1, 2008, at 17:24 , Steve Eppley wrote:
I think the method Diego Santos
Yes, this approach nicely follows the original idea of the method.
Just make small random differences if there are none.
Juho
On Jan 1, 2008, at 19:43 , Diego Santos wrote:
2008/1/1, Steve Eppley [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I think the method Diego Santos is considering can elect outside the
Smith
(with incomplete information and
incomplete control of the voters).
Juho
On Jan 2, 2008, at 17:58 , James Gilmour wrote:
Jobst had written:
Also, it seems difficult to sell a method when you must admit that
advancing an option X may actually reduce X's winning probability...
Steve replied
however also make the election worse since then it is more confusing
and based on less good analysis of the candidates by the voters.
Allowing e.g. two candidates from the major parties and one from some
smaller ones (and maybe few independents too) could be one way to go.)
Juho
On Jan 4, 2008
the proposed method interesting since it seems to aim at
electing good winners (using a function minimizes the problems caused
to the voters, from one point of view).
Juho
On Mar 2, 2008, at 22:20 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just an addendum from previous post (Minimum Distance Condorcet
mean that parties
would be evil as such, or that political systems without parties
would automatically perform better. Thorough understanding of the
dynamics of the political system is needed to make its operation
better (in small or large steps).
Juho
.)
(If different ballots have different complexity that might be a risk
to voter privacy (you would cast a complex vote while most other
votes would be simpler).)
Juho
-- Andrew
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. And if this is done by the
machine there would again be no compelling need to allow circular
votes (hard enough to guess the original linear votes from the
fragments). One could in this case as well allow only linear votes
but still break them into intraceable fragments.
Juho
On Mar 6, 2008, at 2:17
the elections should be made good enough to be trusted enough.)
Juho
On Mar 6, 2008, at 8:30 , Juho wrote:
Thanks. I missed the part of breaking the ballot into pieces already
before counting it.
I know one example where at least people claimed that one person
monitoring the elections in a small
winner. What is the shortest distance (sum of
individual ranges) for C in this example and how do you count it?
Juho
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Juho
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On Mar 7, 2008, at 0:03 , Fred Gohlke wrote:
Good Afternoon, Juho
(I just noticed that I have another message from you, in another area.
I will copy it and respond as quickly as I can, probably tomorrow.
I'm
inexpert at navigating this site, but learning. flg)
In the message I'm
On Mar 7, 2008, at 16:40 , Fred Gohlke wrote:
Good Morning, Juho
re: ... not having parties or other groupings may also cause problems
to the voters since they have hard time finding out what each
individual
candidate stands for.
The purpose of Active Democracy is to guarantee
).
Juho
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people are less likely to make the same mistakes
again. If people do not get the picture same mistakes could be
repeated any number of times.
Juho
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in
individual votes, but it could also look at the damage e.g. at a per
voter level.
Juho
On Mar 9, 2008, at 3:40 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Snipping the message:
**
On Mar 3, 2008, at 1:45 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
[EMAIL
(if true for our time) since it would e.g. weaken the
basis of democracy, voters that have sufficient understanding to
steer the society.
Juho
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of
these concepts and their impact on one's life'.
Not, It may be, IT IS!!! When marketing can persuade people to
buy Pet
Rocks for their home, it is no longer a question. It is a fact.
One new formulation of Descartes' famous I think, therefore I am is
I consume, therefore I am.
Juho
. The new set-up brings new challenges in the area of
privacy though (like the drug dealers).
Juho
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could maybe quite safely
assume that Nader will not win in any case. In the latter case there
were three potential winners.)
Juho
How could the 5 Nader voters suddenly have a different utility for
Gore? In reality, the rating a voter will give to a candidate isn't
some fixed objective
But isn't the method vulnerable to cloning when there is a loop of
three (ABCA), C wins, B is second, but then B is cloned to B1 and B2?
Juho
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On Mar 17, 2008, at 19:49 , Greg Dennis wrote:
Excellent points, Juho. I'll just add a few more.
- You're right, Nader supporters could learn that it's in their best
interest to give Gore a '10'. Under plurality, they could also learn
that it's in their best interest to vote for Gore instead
that the voters themselves have to guess and
decide on the election day what might be the best strategy for them.)
Juho
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to their second preferences if their
more preferred candidates are not about to win is clear enough for
regular voters to understand.
Juho
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already be too much. That could already make any method
unusable for public elections.
Juho
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with the large size, strong economy, no close same
size neighbours that could be seen as examples etc).
Juho
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this down since I haven't seen this anywhere and this
seems to be a clear enough rule to be noted.
Juho
P.S. Similar problems may hit also the ranked methods if voters are
too lazy to rank at least all the (strongest) own party clones.
Bullet voting for one's favourite clone only may thus
dimension may be enough to cover most basic cases but
there may be also other quite common patters that may resemble having
two dimensions, having two centrists with somewhat different profiles
etc.
Juho
Kevin Venzke
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a minor preference
Also a methods where one could give several candidates full points
but would still be able to set a preference order between these
candidates is possible. Actually some Condorcet+Approval methods
could be said to do this (Approval = simple Range).
Juho
although after the election it may be obvious that he/
she should have withdrawn.
Juho
On Apr 19, 2008, at 18:49 , Steve Eppley wrote:
Hi,
I agree with Mr. Lomax that parties' main purpose is to coordinate
campaigns, if he means coordinating the *votes* by assembling a
coalition large
and justify their proposals.
(I also note again that people will roughly get the kind of system
that they deserve. Maybe one could consider better education etc. to
achieve better results.)
Juho
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to start the process so our
progeny
has something to build on?
Yes, every day counts and may lead to positive steps in our own
understanding and in others.
Juho
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already typically mean studies of
multiple clones or situations with lots of uncertainty (and also
realistic examples of less predictable situations where strategies
are not as easy to apply as with a more limited set of candidates).
Juho
it to
others, some implement it, some give mental support etc.
Juho, I fear you may find the tone of my comments too aggressive. You
have been unfailingly courteous, but I don't understand what course
you
advocate for resolving the political problems we face.
No problem. I do enjoy straight talk
to some
extent also reduce the need to offer full political proportionality.
It is also possible to try to satisfy both needs in one system.
Juho
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with certainty
Juho
On May 2, 2008, at 22:29 , Jobst Heitzig wrote:
Dear Juho,
I'm not sure what you mean by
How about using STV or some other proportional method to select
the n-1 worst candidates and then elect the remaining one?
Could you give an example or show how this would work out
On May 4, 2008, at 19:10 , Fred Gohlke wrote:
Good Morning, Juho
re: ... I'm more inclined to see the parties still as units that
still get their strength and mandate to rule from the citizens
themselves (and from their lack of interest to make the parties
better and control them better
life elections (not necessarily for
the challenge of Jobst)). One approach would be to count all the
candidates that are ranked above the planned winner and share the
support of the voter between all of them.
Juho
the number of small party supporters is
probably lower than at this level.)
Juho
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definition (that can be used to formulate
the clone criterion).
Juho
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are needed.
Juho
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,
or some other probabilities that the voters like more). I don't know
what the other (non-proportional) methods should be called here since
dictatorship of majority is not valid in this particular case.
Maybe always elect the best (according to some criterion) is more
accurate.
Juho
On May 9, 2008, at 13:39 , Jobst Heitzig wrote:
Dear Juho,
you wrote:
(Roughly the question is if one wants to
give Stalin and other unwanted fellows a small probability to become
elected or a zero probability.)
I don't think this is the point. To the contrary, bringing up such
examples
On May 9, 2008, at 20:27 , Jobst Heitzig wrote:
Dear Juho,
you wrote:
Yes, but as I see it the reasons are different. In a typical non-
deterministic method like random ballot I think it is the intention
to give all candidates with some support also some probability of
becoming elected
. Condorcet, IRV,
maybe also some others). (That is, if large part of the US citizens
feel that plurality and the pure two-party system idea that it builds
on should be changed to something else.)
Juho
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be many alternative
working ways to achieve this.
Juho
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although the candidates are different at different districts.
It is thus possible to implement both regional and political
proportionality at the same time. And that is possible even if the
voters (of small parties/groupings) would be forced to vote
candidates of their own district.
Juho
On May 19, 2008, at 1:46 , James Gilmour wrote:
Juho Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:31 PM
Single-seat districts (the usual ones) provide very tight regional
representation / proportionality.
True, if you are prepared to accept that you have regional
representation
when a majority of those
enough and simple enough and really can
become DP beyond the secret ballot level.
What property makes Asset Voting be better here? (DP and many methods
may have problems when votes become public, but why does Asset Voting
stand out here?)
Juho
the intended meaning of the vote) there may be no need for
a formal nomination process.
This method is quite simple and straight forward and might work well
enough for this simple task. Just one example among many.
Juho
this
perspective random ballots can be used to open up the possibility to
elect also some regular citizens in addition to (or instead of) the
party controlled candidates.
Juho
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On May 28, 2008, at 1:24 , Dave Ketchum wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:33:29 +0300 Juho wrote:
On May 27, 2008, at 18:52 , Dave Ketchum wrote:
In summary, yes, that is what the rules could look like. I'm very
flexible to what kind of set of rules each user would adopt.
The rules
also
) to eliminate candidates that they like least.
If one follows this idea, then the 33 B supporters of this example do
form a big enough group to have the right to eliminate A (that they
all consider to be the worst candidate).
Juho
On May 28, 2008, at 0:19 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jobst,
After
is
relatively long because of the small size of the groups. Some
members of the groups may also not consider the elected member to
represent themselves. If the groups are formed geographically based
on where people live then the method will obviously create strong
local representation.
Juho
to get
any good grip of the topic.)
Juho
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person simply dominates the process and makes the method
reflect his/her personal visions (while expecting and reacting to
comments from others).
Juho
Yahoo! Photos is now offering a quality print service from just 7p
would be good. There are also rules e.g.
on how many terms a president can serve. Keeping half and changing
half of the representatives may also work in many cases.
Juho
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and maybe also measurable
criterion for proportionality.
Sorry about being speculation oriented only instead of making some
more concrete proposals/claims :-).
Juho
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to approve
different candidate sets in different elections.
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is thus that the distribution (without
districts) would not be a random distribution but would favour the
central regions.
Juho
On Jun 24, 2008, at 6:18 , Howard wrote:
One more observation. Nowadays many methods actually try to meet two
kind of proportionality requirements, political
(order of priority).
Juho
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are likely to be reasonably competent too,
and if the nomination process is reasonably open, then also people
that are competent and willing but that would not fight their way
through could be elected (nomination by few neighbours might be enough).
Juho
single-winner methods for multi-winner elections?
(i.e. not full proportionality, and favouring large parties and not
the small ones) (maybe for U.S. but not for current multi-party
countries)
Juho Laatu
On Jun 25, 2008, at 21:05 , Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:
Juho wrote:
On Jun 24, 2008, at 0:34 , Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:
What do you mean by methods that allow candidates to form a
tree like structure? Something like delegable proxy, or just
preference ballots with parties instead
climate, although all my neighbors do water their lawns?
Maybe lots of water inside the house instead of stone?
Sorry for not including any EM related test in this mail.
Juho
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the changes always happen so quickly that the old leading candidates/
parties are already at the joke category at the time of the election.)
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direction of the parties).
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= D3 wins!
- It may thus sometimes be beneficial to eliminate some of the
potential winners
Juho
On Jun 30, 2008, at 1:16 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jonathan suggested eliminating in a chain and Raphfrk suggested
that this could be automated for large
groups.
I like the chain idea from
will be one which reflects the needs of all the citizens, including
the need to have and use the virtues, which are part of our nature
as dependent rational animals.
It is good to state the ideal targets openly.
Juho
in most such cases Condorcet is safe enough and the threat of
strategic burial can be pretty much forgotten. As a result full
rankings should be quite safe.
Juho
2. If everyone is persuaded (or forced) to rank all the candidates
that
they can, this would seem to add substance to the criticism
analysis with the numbers is complex
due to the numerous uncertainties that I listed above.
Juho
On Jul 1, 2008, at 22:19 , Kevin Venzke wrote:
Hi Juho,
--- En date de : Mar 1.7.08, Juho [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
De: Juho [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't entirely agree. I would rank below my
support to the idea that Condorcet
methods are quite safe from burial point of view in large real life
elections. I'm not sure if any counter strategies (when voting or in
polls or as modified methods) will ever be needed to defend them
(maybe not even in the most strategic societies).
Juho
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