Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
Stuart Stevenson wrote: Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The Honda Civic hybrid has some really interesting stuff going on. They can lock all the valves closed, cylinder by cylinder to control displacement. When it auto stops at a traffic light it closes all the valves so the engine doesn't shudder when it stops. You can't even hear it, but it takes at least 5 seconds to stop turning. I think they do the same on startup from the on-flywheel motor/gen. Whenever you take your foot off the gas it closes all the valves to minimize the engine drag. They also do stuff with variable valve timing so as to minimize use of the throttle plate. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
Dale Grover wrote: If the BeagleBoard port works out, we could then look at other, cheaper, ARM9 boards. The BeagleBoard has all kinds of stuff we don't need (e.g., video, including 2 or 3D acceleration), and leaves out ethernet, plus may be subsidized (and might have some availability issues). Yes, but the alternatives are as, or even MORE, expensive, even though they have less. I now know how to make a $9 Chinese USB-Ethernet dongle work, it probably will work with all newer kernels without fooling around. The Gumstix earth is basically the OMAP3530 chip with the POP memory on a board, for $150! No peripherals at all, you have to add all that at extra cost. If we can get to a more generic ARM9 board, I think we'll have a really excellent solution going forward for EMC, with even more of the benefits Jon lists below. (There are even some fairly cheap--$100/qty 10--boards with ARM9 and a small FPGA, along with ethernet, memory card, etc.) However, the BeagleBoard is popular, has lots of on-board resources, and so may be just the right environment in which to get the ARM9 project going. Certainly at this level, with 2 Beagles dedicated to the project, it just doesn't matter. Yes, I hope over time the cost can come down, and exactly what we need can be implemented on one board. But, I don't want to get involved in putting BGAs on boards in my shop, so I can't build it here. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC? - Off the rails now - Hybrid car stuff
I love techie stuff as much as anyone, but don't you wonder what is going to happen in 6-10 years with some of these hybrids? When the battery packs are shot and the controls are flaking out, and the car is not worth taking to the dealership/stealership for repair work at $100+ per hour.Few shadetree mechanics are going to be able to debug them or be able to afford to replace the parts. Most of the shadetree mechanics I have known are not at all comfortable around high voltage DC. I have similar, but lesser problems now with my Ford 2003 6.0 liter diesel truck right now and it is fairly low tech in comparison. Some of the engine sensors are $300 each. A good price for rebuilt injectors is $200 each - or $1600 for a set. Major repair estimates from the dealership might was well be rounded out to the nearest $1K. I sometimes wonder if some of these hybrids aren't way over engineered. Dave Jon Elson wrote: Stuart Stevenson wrote: Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The Honda Civic hybrid has some really interesting stuff going on. They can lock all the valves closed, cylinder by cylinder to control displacement. When it auto stops at a traffic light it closes all the valves so the engine doesn't shudder when it stops. You can't even hear it, but it takes at least 5 seconds to stop turning. I think they do the same on startup from the on-flywheel motor/gen. Whenever you take your foot off the gas it closes all the valves to minimize the engine drag. They also do stuff with variable valve timing so as to minimize use of the throttle plate. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC? - Off the rails now - Hybrid car stuff
On Friday 11 December 2009, Dave wrote: I love techie stuff as much as anyone, but don't you wonder what is going to happen in 6-10 years with some of these hybrids? When the battery packs are shot and the controls are flaking out, and the car is not worth taking to the dealership/stealership for repair work at $100+ per hour.Few shadetree mechanics are going to be able to debug them or be able to afford to replace the parts. Most of the shadetree mechanics I have known are not at all comfortable around high voltage DC. I have similar, but lesser problems now with my Ford 2003 6.0 liter diesel truck right now and it is fairly low tech in comparison. Some of the engine sensors are $300 each. A good price for rebuilt injectors is $200 each - or $1600 for a set. Major repair estimates from the dealership might was well be rounded out to the nearest $1K. I sometimes wonder if some of these hybrids aren't way over engineered. Its also a symptom of gov mandates, somebody has to pay the bill and that torpedo's anything like competition which would tend to hold prices closer to reality. Dave Jon Elson wrote: Stuart Stevenson wrote: Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The Honda Civic hybrid has some really interesting stuff going on. They can lock all the valves closed, cylinder by cylinder to control displacement. When it auto stops at a traffic light it closes all the valves so the engine doesn't shudder when it stops. You can't even hear it, but it takes at least 5 seconds to stop turning. I think they do the same on startup from the on-flywheel motor/gen. Whenever you take your foot off the gas it closes all the valves to minimize the engine drag. They also do stuff with variable valve timing so as to minimize use of the throttle plate. Jon - - Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users --- --- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them. https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp Kleeneness is next to Godelness. -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC? - Off the rails now - Hybrid car stuff
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 12:58 -0500, Dave wrote: I love techie stuff as much as anyone, but don't you wonder what is going to happen in 6-10 years with some of these hybrids? When the battery packs are shot and the controls are flaking out, and the car is not worth taking to the dealership/stealership for repair work at $100+ per hour.Few shadetree mechanics are going to be able to debug them or be able to afford to replace the parts. Most of the shadetree mechanics I have known are not at all comfortable around high voltage DC. I have similar, but lesser problems now with my Ford 2003 6.0 liter diesel truck right now and it is fairly low tech in comparison. Some of the engine sensors are $300 each. A good price for rebuilt injectors is $200 each - or $1600 for a set. Major repair estimates from the dealership might was well be rounded out to the nearest $1K. I sometimes wonder if some of these hybrids aren't way over engineered. Dave Jon Elson wrote: Stuart Stevenson wrote: Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The Honda Civic hybrid has some really interesting stuff going on. They can lock all the valves closed, cylinder by cylinder to control displacement. When it auto stops at a traffic light it closes all the valves so the engine doesn't shudder when it stops. You can't even hear it, but it takes at least 5 seconds to stop turning. I think they do the same on startup from the on-flywheel motor/gen. Whenever you take your foot off the gas it closes all the valves to minimize the engine drag. They also do stuff with variable valve timing so as to minimize use of the throttle plate. Jon I'm not sure they are really long-term cost effective but they are popular and getting nice mileage is OK. Cheyenne, WY to Lincoln, NB downhill with a tailwind we peaked at 55 mpg. More normal is 38 mpg and that is round trip (Yakima to Seattle) over a some rolling hills that go from 1200' to 2600' several times and then over Snoqualmie Pass at 3000+ and down to 50'. The Precis would do better but I don't fit. I suspect that there is a way to disable the electrics and fall back to living with the 2.8 L gas engine. Time will tell. Dave -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC? - Off the rails now - Hybrid car stuff
But the same can be said for IC engines, with all the addon's, EC modules, computers, updates, etc, ... Shadetree mechanics unless they are really into it can't do much more than change the oil and check tire pressure according to the manufacturers. There are folks doing full retrofits of cars to electric cars, and the parts are available (but not down at your local AutoZone). I wonder if going that way and having almost 'open source' cars aren't a better way in the future. Most of the retrofits gut the IC paraphernalia and go fully electric rather than hybrid. Hybrid adds lots of extra 'stuff' to the equation. In my area many of the 'local garages' are getting out because the cost of staying in the game (high cost of electronic tools) is more than their business can handle. It seems you either 'get big' or 'narrowly specialize', or die. ... Jack On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: I love techie stuff as much as anyone, but don't you wonder what is going to happen in 6-10 years with some of these hybrids? When the battery packs are shot and the controls are flaking out, and the car is not worth taking to the dealership/stealership for repair work at $100+ per hour. Few shadetree mechanics are going to be able to debug them or be able to afford to replace the parts. Most of the shadetree mechanics I have known are not at all comfortable around high voltage DC. I have similar, but lesser problems now with my Ford 2003 6.0 liter diesel truck right now and it is fairly low tech in comparison. Some of the engine sensors are $300 each. A good price for rebuilt injectors is $200 each - or $1600 for a set. Major repair estimates from the dealership might was well be rounded out to the nearest $1K. I sometimes wonder if some of these hybrids aren't way over engineered. Dave Jon Elson wrote: Stuart Stevenson wrote: Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The Honda Civic hybrid has some really interesting stuff going on. They can lock all the valves closed, cylinder by cylinder to control displacement. When it auto stops at a traffic light it closes all the valves so the engine doesn't shudder when it stops. You can't even hear it, but it takes at least 5 seconds to stop turning. I think they do the same on startup from the on-flywheel motor/gen. Whenever you take your foot off the gas it closes all the valves to minimize the engine drag. They also do stuff with variable valve timing so as to minimize use of the throttle plate. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC? - Off the rails now - Hybrid car stuff
open source IS the answer - long term but open source that works - (like EMC2 works) - I have been pulling my hair out trying to make zoneminder work - fully half the questions on the forum are about the same problem - no knows how to fix it - it either works as installed or it almost works (like Windows automagic) On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Jack j...@coats.org wrote: But the same can be said for IC engines, with all the addon's, EC modules, computers, updates, etc, ... Shadetree mechanics unless they are really into it can't do much more than change the oil and check tire pressure according to the manufacturers. There are folks doing full retrofits of cars to electric cars, and the parts are available (but not down at your local AutoZone). I wonder if going that way and having almost 'open source' cars aren't a better way in the future. Most of the retrofits gut the IC paraphernalia and go fully electric rather than hybrid. Hybrid adds lots of extra 'stuff' to the equation. In my area many of the 'local garages' are getting out because the cost of staying in the game (high cost of electronic tools) is more than their business can handle. It seems you either 'get big' or 'narrowly specialize', or die. ... Jack On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: I love techie stuff as much as anyone, but don't you wonder what is going to happen in 6-10 years with some of these hybrids? When the battery packs are shot and the controls are flaking out, and the car is not worth taking to the dealership/stealership for repair work at $100+ per hour.Few shadetree mechanics are going to be able to debug them or be able to afford to replace the parts. Most of the shadetree mechanics I have known are not at all comfortable around high voltage DC. I have similar, but lesser problems now with my Ford 2003 6.0 liter diesel truck right now and it is fairly low tech in comparison. Some of the engine sensors are $300 each. A good price for rebuilt injectors is $200 each - or $1600 for a set. Major repair estimates from the dealership might was well be rounded out to the nearest $1K. I sometimes wonder if some of these hybrids aren't way over engineered. Dave Jon Elson wrote: Stuart Stevenson wrote: Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The Honda Civic hybrid has some really interesting stuff going on. They can lock all the valves closed, cylinder by cylinder to control displacement. When it auto stops at a traffic light it closes all the valves so the engine doesn't shudder when it stops. You can't even hear it, but it takes at least 5 seconds to stop turning. I think they do the same on startup from the on-flywheel motor/gen. Whenever you take your foot off the gas it closes all the valves to minimize the engine drag. They also do stuff with variable valve timing so as to minimize use of the throttle plate. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- The value of goods are expressed in money, while the value of money is expressed in goods. Money and goods are clearly not the same things, but are exactly opposite things. Goods are wealth which you have, while money is a claim on wealth which you do not have. Goods are an asset; Money is a debt. If goods are wealth; money is clearly not wealth, it is negative wealth, maybe even anti-wealth. – Quigley, Tragedy and Hope, pg. 44 (emphasis added) -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC? - Off the rails now - Hybrid car stuff
I disagree. Up until the hybrids came out most of the guys I know (even the non computer literate ones) have been able to work off scan codes and go to junkyards and pickup a xyz module and plug it in - no problem. I've had few issues debugging ECM equipped cars - usually the codes will say the throttle position sensor or oxygen sensor is shot etc. $100 worth of parts and it is fixed. But dealing with high voltage inverters and drives and battery packs that cost $5K plus to replace is a new ballgame. I know of a lot of guys who do car work but aren't comfortable doing household wiring at 120/240 volts. I'm not sure the typical junkyards I know would even accept a hybrid as a scrap vehicle considering some of the battery disposal issues. I wonder if going that way and having almost 'open source' cars aren't a better way in the future. I have wondered the same thing. My daughter has a friend whose father converted a little Ford (Fiesta) with a kit and his kids drive it around town. He plugs it in via an outlet on the front of their garage. It won't get any beauty awards but it seems to be reliable for driving around town. And it is really simple. It will be interesting to see how the Chevy Volt is received by the general population. Dave Jack wrote: But the same can be said for IC engines, with all the addon's, EC modules, computers, updates, etc, ... Shadetree mechanics unless they are really into it can't do much more than change the oil and check tire pressure according to the manufacturers. There are folks doing full retrofits of cars to electric cars, and the parts are available (but not down at your local AutoZone). I wonder if going that way and having almost 'open source' cars aren't a better way in the future. Most of the retrofits gut the IC paraphernalia and go fully electric rather than hybrid. Hybrid adds lots of extra 'stuff' to the equation. In my area many of the 'local garages' are getting out because the cost of staying in the game (high cost of electronic tools) is more than their business can handle. It seems you either 'get big' or 'narrowly specialize', or die. ... Jack On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: I love techie stuff as much as anyone, but don't you wonder what is going to happen in 6-10 years with some of these hybrids? When the battery packs are shot and the controls are flaking out, and the car is not worth taking to the dealership/stealership for repair work at $100+ per hour.Few shadetree mechanics are going to be able to debug them or be able to afford to replace the parts. Most of the shadetree mechanics I have known are not at all comfortable around high voltage DC. I have similar, but lesser problems now with my Ford 2003 6.0 liter diesel truck right now and it is fairly low tech in comparison. Some of the engine sensors are $300 each. A good price for rebuilt injectors is $200 each - or $1600 for a set. Major repair estimates from the dealership might was well be rounded out to the nearest $1K. I sometimes wonder if some of these hybrids aren't way over engineered. Dave Jon Elson wrote: Stuart Stevenson wrote: Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The Honda Civic hybrid has some really interesting stuff going on. They can lock all the valves closed, cylinder by cylinder to control displacement. When it auto stops at a traffic light it closes all the valves so the engine doesn't shudder when it stops. You can't even hear it, but it takes at least 5 seconds to stop turning. I think they do the same on startup from the on-flywheel motor/gen. Whenever you take your foot off the gas it closes all the valves to minimize the engine drag. They also do stuff with variable valve timing so as to minimize use of the throttle plate. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC? - Off the rails now - Hybrid car stuff
dave wrote: I'm not sure they are really long-term cost effective but they are popular and getting nice mileage is OK. Cheyenne, WY to Lincoln, NB downhill with a tailwind we peaked at 55 mpg. More normal is 38 mpg and that is round trip (Yakima to Seattle) over a some rolling hills that go from 1200' to 2600' several times and then over Snoqualmie Pass at 3000+ and down to 50'. The Precis would do better but I don't fit. I suspect that there is a way to disable the electrics and fall back to living with the 2.8 L gas engine. Time will tell. I got 47 MPG going out to Wichita last summer with my Honda Civic hybrid, and it was loaded down with junk for the EMC code fest, and I was stepping on it to try to get there in a reasonable time. I get 53 MPG commuting to work when the temp is moderate, it drops to 47 or so when it is beastly cold. The Prius is a dead duck when the hybrid system conks out. The Honda is generally able to be driven with major malfunctions in the battery pack and drive system, as it has a mechanical transmision and a 12 V backup starter. If the hybrid controls are shot, it can't charge the 12 V battery. If it is only the 150 V battery that is dead, then it can still keep the 12 V battery charged, and you can just keep driving it. It won't auto-stop, and you will lose the electric assist, but it will keep running. The old insight guys said the car actually got BETTER gas mileage when the hybrid battery went kaput, but I suspect that won't be true with the Civic. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
If the BeagleBoard port works out, we could then look at other, cheaper, ARM9 boards. The BeagleBoard has all kinds of stuff we don't need (e.g., video, including 2 or 3D acceleration), and leaves out ethernet, plus may be subsidized (and might have some availability issues). If we can get to a more generic ARM9 board, I think we'll have a really excellent solution going forward for EMC, with even more of the benefits Jon lists below. (There are even some fairly cheap--$100/qty 10--boards with ARM9 and a small FPGA, along with ethernet, memory card, etc.) However, the BeagleBoard is popular, has lots of on-board resources, and so may be just the right environment in which to get the ARM9 project going. I look forward to hearing more progress on this front. It's not going to be the only solution for everyone, but for a lot of us, it will be very useful and very powerful, and will get us past the parallel port issue definitively. (As a Mac user, I'm looking forward to running Axis on my main laptop for real, not just simulation.) --Dale At 8:27 PM -0600 12/9/09, Jon Elson wrote: Stephen Wille Padnos wrote: Considering that a D945GCLF2 motherboard is $80, 2GB memory is $40, a hard drive is $50, and a DC-DC power supply is $50 (you could of course get a full ATX case with power supply for less), I'm not sure where the beagleboard really helps. It's definitely smaller. It's somewhat less expensive (though I'm not sure how far below $220 you're going to get, once you add a power supply, I/O conditioning, etc), it takes somewhat less power (3W vs. 26W). For the small differences in cost, size, and power, you end up with a full PC with gigabit network, 1.6GHz dual-core CPU, reasonable 3D graphics, excellent latency numbers (maybe 8000 or so IIRC), and a PCI slot. Of course there's always a bit of pride to be taken in doing more with less, I'm not sure there's really a great payoff here. Does this have a parallel port that does EPP? The Beagle is actually quit cute. You can run it quite well off an 8 GB SD card, no hard drive at all, and a USB-Ethernet dongle. So, that is about $208. I just found out how to use one of the $9.95 Chinese USB-net dongles, so that drops the price down to $175 plus some shipping. It runs off a single 5 V supply, a wall-wart is fine at these power levels. It would also run quite well from 12 V with a little regulator chip. You'd need some surge protection from the spiky car electrical system, though. I have a board that converts the Beagle's expansion port to 5 V levels and EPP parallel port pinout. (That will runs any standard parallel port function as well.) This whole new direction was started as insurance against loss of the old parallel port and possibly destruction of real time latency with newer incarnations of the Intel core 9000 hyper-megaplex CPUs in the pipeline. It would also allow people who INSIST on using old laptops to get their way. They could run the GUI on the laptop, and link to the beagle via Ethernet. The Beagle would be inside the CNC control box. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
2009/12/9 Jeshua Lacock jes...@3dtopo.com: I know it doesn't work well on (at all?) on most laptops. Can anyone recommend a way to run it in a moving vehicle? I want to control a servo while on the road Do you _need_ Realtime? What sort of servo? I am planning to use an RC aircraft servo and a USB interface to twiddle something in the engine bay of a car at some stage. http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=11product_id=1000 -- atp -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
Jack wrote: For a sim only version, I even saw on phlatforum.com a guy posted instructions on running the emc2 CD on VMWare on a windows machine. It whines about not doing the RT correctly, but it works OK for simulation. If we could find an inexpensive small board that is bullet proof enough for shop use, that could be a real boon to the spread of EMC2 and low cost CNC work. I am hoping the Beagle board will be that, and am working toward that end. The only real roadblock is RTAI, and the ARM maintainer for RTAI is working on it. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
Jon Elson wrote: Jack wrote: For a sim only version, I even saw on phlatforum.com a guy posted instructions on running the emc2 CD on VMWare on a windows machine. It whines about not doing the RT correctly, but it works OK for simulation. If we could find an inexpensive small board that is bullet proof enough for shop use, that could be a real boon to the spread of EMC2 and low cost CNC work. I am hoping the Beagle board will be that, and am working toward that end. The only real roadblock is RTAI, and the ARM maintainer for RTAI is working on it. Considering that a D945GCLF2 motherboard is $80, 2GB memory is $40, a hard drive is $50, and a DC-DC power supply is $50 (you could of course get a full ATX case with power supply for less), I'm not sure where the beagleboard really helps. It's definitely smaller. It's somewhat less expensive (though I'm not sure how far below $220 you're going to get, once you add a power supply, I/O conditioning, etc), it takes somewhat less power (3W vs. 26W). For the small differences in cost, size, and power, you end up with a full PC with gigabit network, 1.6GHz dual-core CPU, reasonable 3D graphics, excellent latency numbers (maybe 8000 or so IIRC), and a PCI slot. Of course there's always a bit of pride to be taken in doing more with less, I'm not sure there's really a great payoff here. - Steve -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
2009/12/9 Jeshua Lacock jes...@3dtopo.com: It would be steering a vehicle to keep it in close as possible to a vector of travel based on differential GPS signals. It would be used for gradiometer data collection for archeology. The more accurate the grid is sampled, the better. That sound like fun. Not many people get to use G-code dimensions in feet. Bear in mind that it doesn't matter that much where you are, just that you know where you are. As long as each reading has an accurate coordinate, then it is good data. You can always regularise your grid later with a Delaunay triangulation and bilinear intepolation. (I have code). Or use the Matlab griddata command. Look on eBay for old laptops. It seems that older ones tend to have fewer problems, and parallel ports. You could probably speculatively buy several, pick the best and sell the rest back for not a huge loss. I recall reading a paper a long time ago that suggested that a fractal was a better way to scan an area than a standard raster. long-term systemic variations get averaged out better. (though the application was electron microscope scan patterns) (Back on subject) EMC actually seems quite a reasonable fit for this job. -- atp -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
(Back on subject) EMC actually seems quite a reasonable fit for this job. -- atp Excuse my ignorance, but how is EMC a reasonable fit? I've always considered EMC pretty static in what it did; playing back gcode. I can see the whole architecture is very flexible, but I haven't heard of EMC being used in anything that was not pre-programmed. Frank -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
On Dec 9, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Andy Pugh wrote: It would be steering a vehicle to keep it in close as possible to a vector of travel based on differential GPS signals. It would be used for gradiometer data collection for archeology. The more accurate the grid is sampled, the better. That sound like fun. Not many people get to use G-code dimensions in feet. Definitely - puts a smile on my face just thinking about it. Bear in mind that it doesn't matter that much where you are, just that you know where you are. As long as each reading has an accurate coordinate, then it is good data. You can always regularise your grid later with a Delaunay triangulation and bilinear intepolation. (I have code). Or use the Matlab griddata command. Yes, we have been creating grids using Inverse Distance Squared Weighting and Regularized Spline with Tension using GRASS GIS. I am not sure why, but the archeologist I have been working with thinks that the closer the data is collected in a grid, the better. I think it might have to do with using arrays of sensors spaced closely together. Regardless, he has to drive repeatedly up, down, in straight lines so it would make his job much much easier. Ultimately, it would be cool to make a robot do all the driving, and we see this as a big step in that direction. Look on eBay for old laptops. It seems that older ones tend to have fewer problems, and parallel ports. You could probably speculatively buy several, pick the best and sell the rest back for not a huge loss. Thanks. I recall reading a paper a long time ago that suggested that a fractal was a better way to scan an area than a standard raster. long-term systemic variations get averaged out better. (though the application was electron microscope scan patterns) Hmmm, that would make for some very interesting scanning patterns! Would probably look like a drunk driver! (Back on subject) EMC actually seems quite a reasonable fit for this job. Cool, thanks for the tip. Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Programmer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
Gentlemen, I think the real time response requirements for steering a vehicle on a data collection course would be met sufficiently by almost any laptop. My thoughts drift toward the automotive engine control. Electronic valves, spark timing, fuel injection timing etc... I think this would require much faster response than a path control for an automobile. The current state of engine control seems to be the evolution of the slow, early processors with lookup tables. With EMC2 and the servo thread updating at 1000 times/second I think that would be sufficient. An automotive motor at 6000 rpm is 100 times per second. Almost all of the controlled devices are actuated at 1/2 that rate. This would give you a multiple of 20 for the update rate. An update every 36 degrees of crankshaft rotation and every 18 degrees of (virtual) camshaft rotation at 6000 rpm. The calculations may be simple enough to allow the servo thread to be shortened considerably for an even finer resolution. Some of the new generation diesel motors have no camshaft. The valves are solenoid actuated. Granted, they run at approximately 2000 rpm so the timing requirements of the solenoid cycles are not as severe. Some of the high end automotive gasoline motors do not require a starter motor. They sense where the motor is, inject fuel into the correct cylinder and fire the spark plug to get the motor moving. There is testing with injecting gasoline into a diesel motor under load. They get the best power and mileage with an 85% gas/15% diesel mixture. just sayin/dreamin thanks Stuart -- The value of goods are expressed in money, while the value of money is expressed in goods. Money and goods are clearly not the same things, but are exactly opposite things. Goods are wealth which you have, while money is a claim on wealth which you do not have. Goods are an asset; Money is a debt. If goods are wealth; money is clearly not wealth, it is negative wealth, maybe even anti-wealth. – Quigley, Tragedy and Hope, pg. 44 (emphasis added) -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
My thoughts drift toward the automotive engine control. Electronic valves, spark timing, fuel injection timing etc... I think this would require much faster response than a path control for an automobile. Not easy to use for your own purposes though. The hardware is certainly capable (typically a fairly high-spec embedded PowerPC) the platforms are basically completely closed. The current state of engine control seems to be the evolution of the slow, early processors with lookup tables. Indeed, many thousands of them, interacting with each other in complex ways. Good for the job at hand, and incorporating hundreds of PID controllers (and more elaborate variants where P, I and D are themselves the output of cascaded lookup tables.) An update every 36 degrees of crankshaft rotation and every 18 degrees of (virtual) camshaft rotation at 6000 rpm. Typically things are calculated every mS, or scheduled on a particular tooth of the crank encoder. Some of the new generation diesel motors have no camshaft. The valves are solenoid actuated. Granted, they run at approximately 2000 rpm so the timing requirements of the solenoid cycles are not as severe. I am looking forwards to the day that tech gets to automotive engines. With a turbo diesel, once you have boost, you can switch to 2-stroke. I am not sure if anyone realises that. Some of the high end automotive gasoline motors do not require a starter motor. They sense where the motor is, inject fuel into the correct cylinder and fire the spark plug to get the motor moving. Really? That's news to me, but identical to how out 1916 Dennis fire engine (9.12 litres, 4 cylinders) is started. Do you have a reference? The engineering/science students who look after the fire engine would love that. There is testing with injecting gasoline into a diesel motor under load. They get the best power and mileage with an 85% gas/15% diesel mixture. It has often occurred to me to wonder: If you were designing the optimum petrochemical fuel, would it be petrol, or diesel, or, far more likely, neither? (My day job? I am one of the guys who programs those automotive ECUs, for the european arm of the Big Three manufacturer likely to make an actual profit this year) -- atp -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
I'd go with Steve's suggestion. The dual core 330 Intel boards are pretty much impossible to beat for performance/$. At the moment I have three of them. You can buy DC to DC power supplies that will maintain regulation through an engine cranking cycle - Minibox sells them also.And the cost is reasonable. Laptops are a crapshoot at best. The Minibox M350 boxes are nice and cheap. I'd consider step and direction output to a servo drive if all you want to do is steer. Link in a GPS via a Python program. I think you might be able grab some GPS interface code from one of the Marine Chart Plotter open source programs. The oftentimes use an NMEA? interface protocol. I think you probably need to worry more about how to power the servo drive than how to power the PC. Sounds like fun. Dave Stephen Wille Padnos wrote: Jon Elson wrote: Jack wrote: For a sim only version, I even saw on phlatforum.com a guy posted instructions on running the emc2 CD on VMWare on a windows machine. It whines about not doing the RT correctly, but it works OK for simulation. If we could find an inexpensive small board that is bullet proof enough for shop use, that could be a real boon to the spread of EMC2 and low cost CNC work. I am hoping the Beagle board will be that, and am working toward that end. The only real roadblock is RTAI, and the ARM maintainer for RTAI is working on it. Considering that a D945GCLF2 motherboard is $80, 2GB memory is $40, a hard drive is $50, and a DC-DC power supply is $50 (you could of course get a full ATX case with power supply for less), I'm not sure where the beagleboard really helps. It's definitely smaller. It's somewhat less expensive (though I'm not sure how far below $220 you're going to get, once you add a power supply, I/O conditioning, etc), it takes somewhat less power (3W vs. 26W). For the small differences in cost, size, and power, you end up with a full PC with gigabit network, 1.6GHz dual-core CPU, reasonable 3D graphics, excellent latency numbers (maybe 8000 or so IIRC), and a PCI slot. Of course there's always a bit of pride to be taken in doing more with less, I'm not sure there's really a great payoff here. - Steve -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
Andy, This link doesn't say anything about starting by injection. I am sure it is BMW that has the starting capability. The article I read may be in Popular Science or it may be in a performance tuning manual I have. The article I read also talked about using the variable valve timing, lift and duration to control motor speed as this article talks about valve lift controlling motor speed. http://www.insideline.com/bmw/inside-bmws-latest-powertrain-technologies.html I am still looking. Stuart -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
H... According to the site on this drive your considering - its USB based http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=11product_id=1000 Not to throw a wet towel, but isn't that a no-go for EMC? Brian -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
I believe the USB no-go is in relation to hard (deterministic) real time response. USB would allow EMC to control devices that have no need for the real time response. On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:11 PM, BRIAN GLACKIN glackin.br...@gmail.comwrote: H... According to the site on this drive your considering - its USB based http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=11product_id=1000 Not to throw a wet towel, but isn't that a no-go for EMC? Brian -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- The value of goods are expressed in money, while the value of money is expressed in goods. Money and goods are clearly not the same things, but are exactly opposite things. Goods are wealth which you have, while money is a claim on wealth which you do not have. Goods are an asset; Money is a debt. If goods are wealth; money is clearly not wealth, it is negative wealth, maybe even anti-wealth. – Quigley, Tragedy and Hope, pg. 44 (emphasis added) -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
On Wednesday 09 December 2009, Andy Pugh wrote: My thoughts drift toward the automotive engine control. Electronic valves, spark timing, fuel injection timing etc... I think this would require much faster response than a path control for an automobile. Not easy to use for your own purposes though. The hardware is certainly capable (typically a fairly high-spec embedded PowerPC) the platforms are basically completely closed. The current state of engine control seems to be the evolution of the slow, early processors with lookup tables. Indeed, many thousands of them, interacting with each other in complex ways. Good for the job at hand, and incorporating hundreds of PID controllers (and more elaborate variants where P, I and D are themselves the output of cascaded lookup tables.) An update every 36 degrees of crankshaft rotation and every 18 degrees of (virtual) camshaft rotation at 6000 rpm. Typically things are calculated every mS, or scheduled on a particular tooth of the crank encoder. Some of the new generation diesel motors have no camshaft. The valves are solenoid actuated. Granted, they run at approximately 2000 rpm so the timing requirements of the solenoid cycles are not as severe. I am looking forwards to the day that tech gets to automotive engines. With a turbo diesel, once you have boost, you can switch to 2-stroke. I am not sure if anyone realises that. A better question is when the first such engine ships and works, who is gonna get caught with their pants at half mast. Entirely doable with solenoid valve actuation at lower rpms. Not practical for cam driven valves though. Another consideration would be the heat loading on the piston centers and how much actual overflush of the air could be arranged since the poppet valves areas are considerably smaller than a side of the cylinder port for a loop scavenged design. In the go-karts of yore, I have seen the McCollughs turning nearly 20k rpms, with ignition purely by the magneto running with the points turned off once they get to 7k or more rpms. One guy selling Mac's claimed his 6.1 cid engine could make 28 hp on alky, and this was 40+ years ago! But one kid figured he knew it all, bought one of them fed it pump gas. It went, for about 1 heat race which got it into the main that night, but 3 laps into the main it went away and when we picked up the pieces, the piece of piston I found was burnt away down to the wrist pin. I had seen nitro do that, but that's the first time I ever saw gasolene do it. Some of the high end automotive gasoline motors do not require a starter motor. They sense where the motor is, inject fuel into the correct cylinder and fire the spark plug to get the motor moving. Really? That's news to me, but identical to how out 1916 Dennis fire engine (9.12 litres, 4 cylinders) is started. Do you have a reference? The engineering/science students who look after the fire engine would love that. That sounds like there is very little 'new' under the sun. OTOH,has the starter motor that can turn a 2+ litre per cylinder engine over and reliably start it ever been designed? Andy, shoot some video of that put it on utube, I think that would be super cool, and would put the designers/engineers of today on notice that in case they are thinking of a patent, by golly just look at the prior art, now nearly 100 years old if that 1916 is the year it was built. There is testing with injecting gasoline into a diesel motor under load. They get the best power and mileage with an 85% gas/15% diesel mixture. Chuckle, sorta reminds me of the time the truck driver pulled the wrong caps at the gas station dropped 2700 gals of super diesel into the regular tanks. I had to run, with the Big Max on the trailer, up to Colorado work on a failed microwave relay, so I 'gassed' up, and realized I was in deep do- do about 5 miles north of Farmington NM cuz it was sounding like a diesel about ready to lift the heads plumb off on the hills.. So when it got too noisy, I'd switch tanks to pull the hills switch back when the pull was easy, in a 2 tank equipt 77 bronco. And everytime I went by a gas pump, I borrowed a funnel and filled the front tank back up with ethyl. By the time I got back I'd pretty well flushed the diesel that 302 was pulling 25% better than it had pulled new! I always figured we bounced all the carbon out of it, (or carboned it up and raised the compression ratio) and of course in those days the lead in the ethyl probably wrote a ~30~ to the cat convertor but we didn't have a quarter to call anybody who cared in those days. The extra power eventually went away but it took about 10k miles to do it. It has often occurred to me to wonder: If you were designing the optimum petrochemical fuel, would it be petrol, or diesel, or, far more likely, neither? Probably today it would whatever they could get the most profit out of since the engine can be made to burn
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
Jeshua Lacock wrote: Greetings, Can anyone recommend a way to run EMC on a portable device? I know it doesn't work well on (at all?) on most laptops. Can anyone recommend a way to run it in a moving vehicle? I want to control a servo while on the road I suppose I could build a PC and have it run off of a 12-volt power supply, but was wondering if there might be any better viable solutions. Some laptops handle RT properly, they are low power by def and 12 V to laptop converters are available. I am working on infrastructure to port EMC2 to the Beagleboard, a 3 W computer that is 3 x 3 inches. But, we aren't there, yet. I am working on a board to put a standard EPP port on it, and a guy in Germany is working on the RTAI port. But, none of this will be available in the next few months. You could probably port the sim version of EMC to it now, if you wanted to. It already runs many flavors of Linux. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Portable EMC?
For a sim only version, I even saw on phlatforum.com a guy posted instructions on running the emc2 CD on VMWare on a windows machine. It whines about not doing the RT correctly, but it works OK for simulation. If we could find an inexpensive small board that is bullet proof enough for shop use, that could be a real boon to the spread of EMC2 and low cost CNC work. ... Jack On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: Jeshua Lacock wrote: Greetings, Can anyone recommend a way to run EMC on a portable device? I know it doesn't work well on (at all?) on most laptops. Can anyone recommend a way to run it in a moving vehicle? I want to control a servo while on the road I suppose I could build a PC and have it run off of a 12-volt power supply, but was wondering if there might be any better viable solutions. Some laptops handle RT properly, they are low power by def and 12 V to laptop converters are available. I am working on infrastructure to port EMC2 to the Beagleboard, a 3 W computer that is 3 x 3 inches. But, we aren't there, yet. I am working on a board to put a standard EPP port on it, and a guy in Germany is working on the RTAI port. But, none of this will be available in the next few months. You could probably port the sim version of EMC to it now, if you wanted to. It already runs many flavors of Linux. Jon -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Return on Information: Google Enterprise Search pays you back Get the facts. http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
