Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On Sep 22, 2015, at 1:52 PM, Lee Hart wrote: > Ben Goren via EV wrote: > >> Not just current state of the art...it's never going to be practical >> for the four-door five-passenger freeway sedan that dominates the >> roadways; there just isn't enough insolation. > > I agree for normal cars. But I have to wonder... what about railroad cars? Now that's a _very_ interesting thought! One would have to run the numbers, of course, which shouldn't be too difficult: box car surface area, assume panels laid flat on top and average US insolation. Locomotive fuel consumption per mile should be easy to find. If the math works, it should be straightforward to retrofit...the locomotives are already electric vehicles with diesel generators providing the electricity. Add a battery car, charge the batteries from the panels, run the electric motor from the batteries, and keep the diesel generator to top off the batteries if they ever run low. I'd think the biggest technical challenge would be routing that much power from car to car...every car would have to be able to carry the full current of the maximum output from the panels, over a connection that can be made and disconnected at random times, quickly and safely -- and with automatic shutdown / disconnect in case of derailment or other emergency. I bet that wouldn't be easy to design nor cheap to implement. ...but, alas, a significant fraction of rail transport is moving fossil fuels around the country, and something tells me that the rail owners would get upset at the "optics" of a solar-powered train hauling coal or tar sands crude. If solar is what's best for the trains moving the dirty stuff, why bother with the dirty stuff in the first place, and why not just go solar everywhere? Don't hold your breath, in other words. b& -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150922/769ad3da/attachment.pgp> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is itworth it?
I think this discussion points out, though, that the money might be better placed on the house where it can lead to a bigger array, more electricity, and a better return. Of course, it probably takes a larger investment too. Mike On September 22, 2015 5:31:02 PM MDT, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: >> I can't advise you what to do with *your* investments, as everyone >has >different needs, but these days a safe high dividend paying stock will >give you better and relatively safe returns. > >Sure, and now much of those S&P investeemtns are in oil and gas and all >manner of status-quo heading pel-mel down the dead end of human >extinction? Solar is not "relatively safe", it is quite strongly safe, >since the Sun will always shine and the value of the return only goes >up >as the cost of energy goes up. > >Bob > >On Sep 22, 2015, at 1:50 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote: > >>> Most investments pay more than that. Using bank interest as an >> indication in this low interest rate environment isn't appropriate. >> >> Huh? Tell me where? I have a CD at 2.2% and my advisor said hang on >> to it, since she knows of no other similar secure investment rate. >> The other CD is at 1.9% and same thing. She says that is about the >> same or better than she can get. My bank pays 0.8%. >> >> Sure there are better rates but at commensurately higher risk. But >> there is nothing more guaranteed and secure than the sun and solar. >Period. >> 10 to 18% return on your solar panel investment on one's house. For >> example. Bob >> >> On Sep 22, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV >> >> wrote: >> Sounds like yearly payback is somewhere between $10.00 and $40.00. Sounds kind of small for an investment of more than $1000. >>> >>> That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the >>> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. >>> >>> So if it is equal or better than most other investments, AND it is >>> definitely better than using coal electricity for ALL of us, then >>> many would jump at the chance. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On September 22, 2015 7:19:43 AM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV >>> wrote: On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: > ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a > profitable feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? Much of the answer is right in the story: > As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total energy > required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. >That reduces > the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results > may vary > depending on area and usage. > > By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels > limit how deep > into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. I'm not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can come up with better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using >standard T105 type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 Wh/mi. Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * >365) == 438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release seems to suggest). This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating it'll only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the >sun directly overhead. At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert so I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate that the panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine (including dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far >> off. So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days >per year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car claim, but surprisingly close. But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun >any time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot summer day in Florida? Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it on a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around it, it will gain less solar energy. So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends >on w
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Perovskite solar cells may power electric
You are still thinking 3000 pound conversions. Cut the weight and cut the battery weight. Get good aerodynamics. I bet Clouds Dolphin would do great with a 1kw of solar. Imagine it at 1500 pounds with a small pack. Just do the math. It's all about the numbers. The lighter the vehicle the more sense solar on the car makes. I've even seen VW buses done over and for a specific mission that works. It's about 8 miles a day. The guy never plugs in. Works for him. So if you have a 2000 pound car instead of 55wh per mile it might be 150wh per mile Range. 20 kw pack 600 watt solar panels...do the math. Brings it down to 200 mile range and 33 hours to charge. Lets divide 200 by 33. That is 6 miles of range per hour of sitting in the sun. Starting to get interesting? For some people that is enough and you would never need to plug in...but you could if needed. Somehow Stella and Stella Lux get very good CD with their custom roofs full of cells. A CD of .16. Plenty good. So if the manufacturers would make something like the tear drop German cars of the 30's you might have something. 50 miles of gain per day is great and many people could live on that number for their commute. Stop thinking Nissan Leaf and more like the I3 squished down. Remember if you use bad CD like the Leaf and heavy weight solar makes no sense. You must have a light aero vehicle. Lawrence Rhodes...I lease a Leaf and it's great but it's so 20th Century...It's the same kind of vehicle as a Rav4 EV or the Honda EV Plus...Look at what aero did for the EV 1 and you can see every little bit helps until it's in the ball park and working. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlorwagen http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2767806/Meet-Stella-solar-powered-car-drives-500-miles-SINGLE-charge-warns-traffic-lights-change.html http://www.evalbum.com/3242 Dave Clouds Dolphin. It's gutted and only weighs 1200 pounds without batteries. 1980 pounds in battery weight. This is the vehicle to make solar. It might do better than my numbers. A lot better...but then someone would have to do it ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On 22 Sep 2015 at 19:35, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > Yes, but a grid-tied solar system does not need a "dump battery" so that > is a 100% wasted investment. Just charge from the net-metereed solar > system as is. Barring an unlikely major change in America's political system that vastly reduces the influence of money on laws, grid tie is going to be effectively gone in a few years. The utilities despise it, and will price it out of existence. You may be lucky enough to be grandfathered for a while -- or maybe not. Most of us won't have that nearly-infinite, nearly-free battery that you have right now. We'd better be making other plans. I'm sure there are huge practical barriers, but wouldn't it be great to develop democratically-controlled local or even regional consortia of RE users who pool their resources to build large storage facilities, and intertie their systems that way? While we're at it why not make them vehicle-sharing programs, too? You drive a small EV to work every day, but if you need an ICE van for the weekend, you can trade for a modest fee. I know, now I'M the dreamer. :-\ David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
Yes, but a grid-tied solar system does not need a "dump battery" so that is a 100% wasted investment. Just charge from the net-metereed solar system as is. Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 4:12 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it? Bob, I think the comparison of dump pack versus roof mounted option was comparing a house mounted solar+dump solution to a *car*roof mounted solar panel, which is easy to beat in financial terms due to the cost of flexible solar for car roof and the unreliable insolation on a car. Other attempts at this have constructed car charging car ports to get increased efficiency from solar panels other than on the car itself. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via EV Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:13 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it? -Original Message- >> That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the >> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. > I'll bet a cup of coffee that stationary panels going to a set of batteries used as a dump pack for the golf cart would still financially outperform the roof-mounted option. When Can I collect the cup? Only if the Golf Cart and dump-pack are FULLY discharged every day. Because only then are you using the solar panels. A solar panel just sitting there in the sun connected to a fully charged battery is providing ZERO return on investment. That is why NET metering is the best economics hands down. You get 100% of the energy all the time, every day, no matter how much you use. People forget that battery systems are not only very inefficient, require maintenqance, but whenever they are fully charged, then the solar panels are providing nothing in return for their investment. And since battery systems have to have oversized solar panels to make up for cloudy days, then by definition, every fully sun day, then all the excess solar energy beyond full charge is simply wasted. My conclusion is that any use of batteries for storing solar energy wastes $2 of every $3 invested in the solar system. Grid-tie wastes none of it. You get full retail value for every watt that falls on the panels no matter where you use it. Bob, WB4APR You can use cheaper panels that get maximum insolation, and the only concern for the dump pack is total lifetime cost per kWh in and out -- weight or volume or similar concerns are irrelevant. A significant fraction of the electric vehicles on the road are already solar powered; EV owners are statistically much more likely to have rooftop solar generation than others. Except as a gimmick or an engineering challenge or in unreal fringe cases (extraterrestrial planetary exploration), carting the panels around with you is the most over-the-top wasteful way to get to a "green" car. It's pure conspicuous consumerism --which is perfectly fine if you can afford and appreciate the luxury...just don't pretend that it's saving the planet or that it makes good financial sense. b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is itworth it?
> I can't advise you what to do with *your* investments, as everyone has different needs, but these days a safe high dividend paying stock will give you better and relatively safe returns. Sure, and now much of those S&P investeemtns are in oil and gas and all manner of status-quo heading pel-mel down the dead end of human extinction? Solar is not "relatively safe", it is quite strongly safe, since the Sun will always shine and the value of the return only goes up as the cost of energy goes up. Bob On Sep 22, 2015, at 1:50 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote: >> Most investments pay more than that. Using bank interest as an > indication in this low interest rate environment isn't appropriate. > > Huh? Tell me where? I have a CD at 2.2% and my advisor said hang on > to it, since she knows of no other similar secure investment rate. > The other CD is at 1.9% and same thing. She says that is about the > same or better than she can get. My bank pays 0.8%. > > Sure there are better rates but at commensurately higher risk. But > there is nothing more guaranteed and secure than the sun and solar. Period. > 10 to 18% return on your solar panel investment on one's house. For > example. Bob > > On Sep 22, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV > > wrote: > >>> Sounds like yearly payback is somewhere between $10.00 and $40.00. >>> Sounds kind of small for an investment of more than $1000. >> >> That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the >> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. >> >> So if it is equal or better than most other investments, AND it is >> definitely better than using coal electricity for ALL of us, then >> many would jump at the chance. >> >> Bob >> >> On September 22, 2015 7:19:43 AM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV >> wrote: >>> On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: >>> ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? >>> >>> Much of the answer is right in the story: >>> As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total >>> energy required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That >>> reduces the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may >>> vary depending on area and usage. By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit >>> how deep into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. >>> >>> I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. >>> >>> First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. >>> I'm not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can >>> come up with >>> >>> better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. >>> >>> IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard >>> T105 >>> type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and >>> 158 Wh/mi. >>> Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. >>> >>> Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) >>> == >>> >>> 438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release >>> seems to suggest). >>> >>> This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating >>> it'll only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun >>> directly overhead. >>> At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert >>> so I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate >>> that the panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine >>> (including dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too >>> far > off. >>> >>> So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per >>> year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the >>> energy required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than >>> Club Car claim, but surprisingly close. >>> >>> But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any >>> time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the >>> shade of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many >>> people deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun >>> on a hot summer day in Florida? >>> >>> Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it >>> on a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around >>> it, it will gain less solar energy. >>> >>> So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other >>> vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on >>> where and how she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll >>> probably yield more bragging rights than range. >>> >>> What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you >>> park mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the >>> battery when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery >>> cycle life a bit. >>> Calculating >>> whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the c
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On 22 Sep 2015 at 15:12, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > People forget that battery systems are not only very inefficient ... Doesn't that depend on how you use them? For example, lead batteries are very close to 100% efficient between 0% and 80% SOC. Virtually all of the energy goes into the charging reaction and almost none into heat. I suspect that other chemistries have similar SOC ranges over which they're similarly efficient. > ... require maintenance ... Most modern batteries don't need the kind of maintenance required for lead, no? > but whenever they are fully charged, then the solar panels are > providing nothing in return for their investment. Oh, there I agree! It's a major challenge and expense to provide enough capacity to store all the energy a big PV system harvests in a day, especially if you don't need it within the following 24 hours. If you have nowhere to go in that dump-pack-charged EV, you're going to need a LOT of storage to hang on to the energy. So that infinitely large battery, the grid, is great to have. Trouble is, it's not free to use, and you (we) don't own it. Because most utilities are privately owned businesses, we the public have no fundamental right to access that big battery. But business controls politics, and the laws that once controlled these regulated monopolies and granted us that right are rapidly being ground down. The grid is apt to get a lot more expensive to use, if not unavailable, in the years ahead. So while I think you're right about the grid in the short term, I suspect that the long-term future for storing solar energy for your EV is in batteries -- LOTS of them. The idea of using depreciated lithium EV batteries whose diminished capacity no longer serves for the EVs is really appealing, as long as it doesn't mean lowered efficiency. (Reduce, reuse, recycle ...) David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is itworth it?
You said 1-4%. We weren't talking about solar on the house, but on the car. Wasn't that the point. I would use the S&P index for a comparative rate of return. *Every* rate is based on a commensurate risk, but I don't consider the S&P risky over the long term, and we *are* talking about long term returns, aren't we? I can't advise you what to do with *your* investments, as everyone has different needs, but these days a safe high dividend paying stock will give you better and relatively safe returns. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 22, 2015, at 1:50 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote: >> Most investments pay more than that. Using bank interest as an > indication in this low interest rate environment isn't appropriate. > > Huh? Tell me where? I have a CD at 2.2% and my advisor said hang on to > it, since she knows of no other similar secure investment rate. The other > CD is at 1.9% and same thing. She says that is about the same or better > than she can get. My bank pays 0.8%. > > Sure there are better rates but at commensurately higher risk. But there > is nothing more guaranteed and secure than the sun and solar. Period. > 10 to 18% return on your solar panel investment on one's house. For > example. Bob > > On Sep 22, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV > wrote: > >>> Sounds like yearly payback is somewhere between $10.00 and $40.00. >>> Sounds kind of small for an investment of more than $1000. >> >> That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the >> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. >> >> So if it is equal or better than most other investments, AND it is >> definitely better than using coal electricity for ALL of us, then many >> would jump at the chance. >> >> Bob >> >> On September 22, 2015 7:19:43 AM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV >> wrote: >>> On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: >>> ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? >>> >>> Much of the answer is right in the story: >>> As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total >>> energy required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That >>> reduces the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may >>> vary depending on area and usage. By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit >>> how deep into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. >>> >>> I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. >>> >>> First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. >>> I'm not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can >>> come up with >>> >>> better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. >>> >>> IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard >>> T105 >>> type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 >>> Wh/mi. >>> Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. >>> >>> Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) >>> == >>> >>> 438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release >>> seems to suggest). >>> >>> This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating >>> it'll only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun >>> directly overhead. >>> At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert >>> so I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate >>> that the panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine >>> (including dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far > off. >>> >>> So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per >>> year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy >>> required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car >>> claim, but surprisingly close. >>> >>> But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any >>> time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade >>> of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people >>> deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot >>> summer day in Florida? >>> >>> Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it >>> on a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around >>> it, it will gain less solar energy. >>> >>> So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other >>> vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on >>> where and how she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll probably >>> yield more bragging rights than range. >>> >>> What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park >>> mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the >>> battery when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery >>> cycle life a bit. >>> Calculating >>> whether the resultin
[EVDL] Railroad solar? (was: Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts...)
Interesting point. Also, the cars "draft" one another so the air resistance is quite low as well. It takes only ~0.6 HP to move per ton to propel a train 50 mph. About 5% of the energy that it takes to move a truck or a car at the same speed. http://www.brooklynrail.net/science_of_railway_locomotion.html Bill D. I agree for normal cars. But I have to wonder... what about railroad cars? Their rolling resistance is vastly lower, they have a huge roof area, and almost always sit in the sun. Could one make a commuter train or freight train with PV panels on the roof of every car. Would they collect enough power to be useful? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is itworth it?
> Most investments pay more than that. Using bank interest as an indication in this low interest rate environment isn't appropriate. Huh? Tell me where? I have a CD at 2.2% and my advisor said hang on to it, since she knows of no other similar secure investment rate. The other CD is at 1.9% and same thing. She says that is about the same or better than she can get. My bank pays 0.8%. Sure there are better rates but at commensurately higher risk. But there is nothing more guaranteed and secure than the sun and solar. Period. 10 to 18% return on your solar panel investment on one's house. For example. Bob On Sep 22, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: >> Sounds like yearly payback is somewhere between $10.00 and $40.00. >> Sounds kind of small for an investment of more than $1000. > > That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the > future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. > > So if it is equal or better than most other investments, AND it is > definitely better than using coal electricity for ALL of us, then many > would jump at the chance. > > Bob > > On September 22, 2015 7:19:43 AM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV > wrote: >> On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: >> >>> ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable >>> feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? >> >> Much of the answer is right in the story: >> >>> As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total >> energy >>> required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That >> reduces >>> the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may >> vary >>> depending on area and usage. >>> >>> By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels >>> limit >> how deep >>> into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. >> >> I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. >> >> First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. >> I'm not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can >> come up with >> >> better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. >> >> IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard >> T105 >> type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 >> Wh/mi. >> Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. >> >> Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) >> == >> >> 438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release >> seems to suggest). >> >> This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating >> it'll only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun >> directly overhead. >> At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert >> so I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate >> that the panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine >> (including dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far off. >> >> So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per >> year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy >> required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car >> claim, but surprisingly close. >> >> But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any >> time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade >> of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people >> deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot >> summer day in Florida? >> >> Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it >> on a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around >> it, it will gain less solar energy. >> >> So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other >> vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on >> where and how she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll probably >> yield more bragging rights than range. >> >> What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park >> mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the >> battery when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery >> cycle life a bit. >> Calculating >> whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the cost of >> the PV panel will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) >> >> FWIW, in looking for info on this I ran across several dealers >> offering >> >> aftermarket PV panel options for golf cars. One claimed a (peak) >> output of >> 220 watts. The price was $1450. >> >> Is it worth it? I see 12v 50w generic PV panels on Ebay for around >> $100 >> each. Five of them would give you peak 250W into a charge controller. >> >> Speaking of which, I see 48v, 30-45 amp charge controllers on Ebay at >> prices from $160 to $260. >> >> The dealer I mentioned above also provide a roof frame and struts. >> What do >> you think that's worth, maybe $150? So they're making around $700
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
EVDL Administrator wrote: The autonomous onboard-PV EV is a sweet dream. Who wouldn't love to drive on pure sunshine and never have to fuel up or plug in? But at the current state of the art, that's your heart talking, not your head. Ben Goren via EV wrote: Not just current state of the art...it's never going to be practical for the four-door five-passenger freeway sedan that dominates the roadways; there just isn't enough insolation. I agree for normal cars. But I have to wonder... what about railroad cars? Their rolling resistance is vastly lower, they have a huge roof area, and almost always sit in the sun. Could one make a commuter train or freight train with PV panels on the roof of every car. Would they collect enough power to be useful? -- The ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do. -- Steve Jobs -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
Bob, I think the comparison of dump pack versus roof mounted option was comparing a house mounted solar+dump solution to a *car*roof mounted solar panel, which is easy to beat in financial terms due to the cost of flexible solar for car roof and the unreliable insolation on a car. Other attempts at this have constructed car charging car ports to get increased efficiency from solar panels other than on the car itself. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via EV Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:13 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it? -Original Message- >> That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the >> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. > I'll bet a cup of coffee that stationary panels going to a set of batteries used as a dump pack for the golf cart would still financially outperform the roof-mounted option. When Can I collect the cup? Only if the Golf Cart and dump-pack are FULLY discharged every day. Because only then are you using the solar panels. A solar panel just sitting there in the sun connected to a fully charged battery is providing ZERO return on investment. That is why NET metering is the best economics hands down. You get 100% of the energy all the time, every day, no matter how much you use. People forget that battery systems are not only very inefficient, require maintenqance, but whenever they are fully charged, then the solar panels are providing nothing in return for their investment. And since battery systems have to have oversized solar panels to make up for cloudy days, then by definition, every fully sun day, then all the excess solar energy beyond full charge is simply wasted. My conclusion is that any use of batteries for storing solar energy wastes $2 of every $3 invested in the solar system. Grid-tie wastes none of it. You get full retail value for every watt that falls on the panels no matter where you use it. Bob, WB4APR You can use cheaper panels that get maximum insolation, and the only concern for the dump pack is total lifetime cost per kWh in and out -- weight or volume or similar concerns are irrelevant. A significant fraction of the electric vehicles on the road are already solar powered; EV owners are statistically much more likely to have rooftop solar generation than others. Except as a gimmick or an engineering challenge or in unreal fringe cases (extraterrestrial planetary exploration), carting the panels around with you is the most over-the-top wasteful way to get to a "green" car. It's pure conspicuous consumerism --which is perfectly fine if you can afford and appreciate the luxury...just don't pretend that it's saving the planet or that it makes good financial sense. b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
It’s an interesting problem that I believe has a moving target since in some places you get paid retail for your excess electrons but in other jurisdictions you get paid a fraction of retail. The power companies if they had their way would pay a pittance for your excess and then sell you back the electrons at retail. There is some justification for this since they don’t always need your excess. Having too much excess power but no control over when it’s being offered can be a big problem. If you have a bright windy day and lots of solar and wind being dumped into the grid and then get a sudden drop in wind and a cloud rolling overhead the system will need to have peaking plants on standby to take over the load. Idling these plants is expensive, maybe more so than just suppling the power from traditional sources. A grid that had distributed power storage and access to several ideally clean energy sources would end up being the most stable. If you have your own battery bank you can keep the lights on during a power failures for sure but you can also run on your own ‘free’ electrons, sell the excess to the grid if you have them, buy them back if you need them but maybe at a lower off peak rate and potentially offer them back at a premium if the grid asks for them. This would allow for basically five price points: $0.00 You don’t need the grid, the grid does not need you. Here the grid is operating below optimal with room to move up but not down. $low-buyYou do need the grid, the grid has excess. Here the grid is operating below optimal and can efficiently offer you more electrons. $high-buy You do need the grid, the grid is peaking. Here you have run low and the grid is operating above optimal and drawing on other, maybe stored sources to make up the difference. $low-sell You have excess and the grid has the capacity to accept. Here you have excess and the grid is operating above optimal and can save money buy accepting your extra. $high-sell You have excess and the grid is peaking so needs extra. Here you have extra and the grid is peaking and requesting extra from stored sources, you offer some of your stored energy in exchange for a higher value. So in my estimation it is the bi-directional grid tie with with distributed local storage and net metering is a the win-win situation. There was a lot of discussion some time back about Vehicle to Grid (VTG) solutions where electric cars become part of the distributed storage. If you integrate vehicles and possibly stationary batteries you could reach a point where there was enough storage to shut down some of the dirty generating stations entirely, not just the peaking plants. Lawrence > On Sep 22, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV > wrote: > > -Original Message- >>> That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the >>> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. > >> I'll bet a cup of coffee that stationary panels going to a set of > batteries used as a dump pack for the golf cart would still financially > outperform the roof-mounted option. > > When Can I collect the cup? > > Only if the Golf Cart and dump-pack are FULLY discharged every day. > Because only then are you using the solar panels. A solar panel just > sitting there in the sun connected to a fully charged battery is providing > ZERO return on investment. > > That is why NET metering is the best economics hands down. You get 100% > of the energy all the time, every day, no matter how much you use. > > People forget that battery systems are not only very inefficient, require > maintenqance, but whenever they are fully charged, then the solar panels > are providing nothing in return for their investment. And since battery > systems have to have oversized solar panels to make up for cloudy days, > then by definition, every fully sun day, then all the excess solar energy > beyond full charge is simply wasted. > > My conclusion is that any use of batteries for storing solar energy wastes > $2 of every $3 invested in the solar system. Grid-tie wastes none of it. > You get full retail value for every watt that falls on the panels no > matter where you use it. > > Bob, WB4APR > > You can use cheaper panels that get maximum insolation, and the only > concern for the dump pack is total lifetime cost per kWh in and out -- > weight or volume or similar concerns are irrelevant. > > A significant fraction of the electric vehicles on the road are already > solar powered; EV owners are statistically much more likely to have > rooftop solar generation than others. Except as a gimmick or an > engineering challenge or in unreal fringe cases (extraterrestrial > planetary exploration), carting the panels around with you is the most > over-the-top wasteful way to get to a "green" car. It's pure conspicuous
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On Sep 22, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > Only if the Golf Cart and dump-pack are FULLY discharged every day. Hmmm...I don't think that's quite right, but the basic point you make is a good one. If the car has, say, a 300 mile range, and the fixed generation system makes an average of 50 miles of range per day and you drive an average of 50 miles per day, that's going to be pretty much optimal -- even though the batteries are never going below 80% of full charge. > That is why NET metering is the best economics hands down. Fully agreed -- but, of course, only where it's an option. It's the rate plan I'm personally on. However, thanks to intense private lobbying by the Koch Brothers...were my neighbors to install similar systems today, though they'd technically be on a net metering rate plan, they'd actually wind up spending 80% of whatever they do today regardless of how much net they generate. The new plans have insane instantaneous peak / load factor / etc. surcharges that're guaranteed to make rooftop solar a complete waste of money. Utilities are doing this in a _very_ shortsighted attempt to prevent grid defection...but it's too late. Already, my neighbors would have about the same return on investment if they cut the grid connection and went to batteries as they would have a couple decades ago with grid-tie solar. The cost of a grid connection for new construction is so insane that it can't even pretend to compete with battery-backed solar; the grid hookup alone can cost more than the batteries, maybe even more than the total solar+battery installation cost -- and that's before you consider the value of a lifetime of free unmetered energy. So...the grid is going to die, and it's the utilities themselves that are going to kill it. It's a shame...but at least we all get limitless free electricity (after initial capital investment) no matter what happens to the grid. Cheers, b& -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150922/0f6d6252/attachment.pgp> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
-Original Message- >> That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the >> future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. > I'll bet a cup of coffee that stationary panels going to a set of batteries used as a dump pack for the golf cart would still financially outperform the roof-mounted option. When Can I collect the cup? Only if the Golf Cart and dump-pack are FULLY discharged every day. Because only then are you using the solar panels. A solar panel just sitting there in the sun connected to a fully charged battery is providing ZERO return on investment. That is why NET metering is the best economics hands down. You get 100% of the energy all the time, every day, no matter how much you use. People forget that battery systems are not only very inefficient, require maintenqance, but whenever they are fully charged, then the solar panels are providing nothing in return for their investment. And since battery systems have to have oversized solar panels to make up for cloudy days, then by definition, every fully sun day, then all the excess solar energy beyond full charge is simply wasted. My conclusion is that any use of batteries for storing solar energy wastes $2 of every $3 invested in the solar system. Grid-tie wastes none of it. You get full retail value for every watt that falls on the panels no matter where you use it. Bob, WB4APR You can use cheaper panels that get maximum insolation, and the only concern for the dump pack is total lifetime cost per kWh in and out -- weight or volume or similar concerns are irrelevant. A significant fraction of the electric vehicles on the road are already solar powered; EV owners are statistically much more likely to have rooftop solar generation than others. Except as a gimmick or an engineering challenge or in unreal fringe cases (extraterrestrial planetary exploration), carting the panels around with you is the most over-the-top wasteful way to get to a "green" car. It's pure conspicuous consumerism --which is perfectly fine if you can afford and appreciate the luxury...just don't pretend that it's saving the planet or that it makes good financial sense. b& ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Perovskite solar cells may power electric
On 22 Sep 2015 at 18:39, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099022_new-stella-solar-electric-c > ar-produces-more-energy-than-it-uses here is the most practical design > for a modern solar vehicle. s/most practical/most nearly practical/g Great, if all your driving is in the desert in the daytime. But most of us drive at night, on cloudy days, in the rain and snow. We drive on tree- lined suburban streets. We drive on city streets surrounded by tall buildings that shade out the sun except at summer high noon. Just think how much more energy those PVs on its roof could make if they were on a tracker in your back yard, or even on your house's south-facing roof. I know, the PV extends the car's range. Take the money you'd spend on the PVs, and instead put it into more batteries. You'll get range extension you can count on, instead of range extension that depends on where and when you drive and park, and better vehicle aerodynamics to boot. My other reaction is pure opinion, and it doesn't affect the way I judge its fundamental principle. But yikes, to me that car is just hideous looking. It's kind of like Godzilla accidentally leaned back onto a Citroen DS. As I said before, the idea of an autonomous solar car is a sweet dream. But where PV is today -- less efficient at turning its fuel (sunshine) into energy than an ICE is -- that's your heart talking, not your head. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On Sep 22, 2015, at 11:46 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > The autonomous onboard-PV EV is a sweet dream. Who wouldn't love to drive > on pure sunshine and never have to fuel up or plug in? But at the current > state of the art, that's your heart talking, not your head. Not just current state of the art...it's never going to be practical for the four-door five-passenger freeway sedan that dominates the roadways; there just isn't enough insolation. The Nissan Leaf already fits that bill, save with rooftop solar and a limited range -- and the Tesla is perhaps the best luxury performance sedan ever made. So what sort of sense does it make to restrict yourself to a prone position in a sardine can that can't be garaged and can only be driven in the open on sunny days...just so you can have the privilege of hauling around an expensive and fragile kluge of a portable solar array? Again, fantastic for the bragging rights, the engineering challenge, all the rest. But it'll never be anything other than a gimmick, even long after the majority of the cars on the road are solar powered. b& -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150922/ea37c22c/attachment.pgp> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On 22 Sep 2015 at 11:28, Ben Goren via EV wrote: > carting the panels around with you is the most over-the-top wasteful > way to get to a "green" car. It worsens your vehicle's aerodynamics, too. Not only are you wasting energy you could harvest by leaving the PVs at home, you're also throwing it away in additional aero drag. > It's pure conspicuous consumerism ... I wouldn't go that far, but IMO it's not the best use of the resources (financial and otherwise) involved. The autonomous onboard-PV EV is a sweet dream. Who wouldn't love to drive on pure sunshine and never have to fuel up or plug in? But at the current state of the art, that's your heart talking, not your head. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Perovskite solar cells may power electric
Schlörwagen is the vehicle built in the 30's with a .16CD. The list gods didn't like the URL and put random characters in the URL. Replace Schlorwagen in the URL or search Wikipedia or the web. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099022_new-stella-solar-electric-car-produces-more-energy-than-it-uses here is the most practical design for a modern solar vehicle. Lawrence Rhodes ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
Most investments pay more than that. Using bank interest as an indication in this low interest rate environment isn't appropriate. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 22, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: >> Sounds like yearly payback is somewhere between $10.00 and $40.00. >> Sounds kind of small for an investment of more than $1000. > > That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the future > since it displaces X amount of coal burning. > > So if it is equal or better than most other investments, AND it is > definitely better than using coal electricity for ALL of us, then many > would jump at the chance. > > Bob > > On September 22, 2015 7:19:43 AM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV > wrote: >> On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: >> >>> ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable >>> feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? >> >> Much of the answer is right in the story: >> >>> As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total >> energy >>> required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That >> reduces >>> the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may >> vary >>> depending on area and usage. >>> >>> By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit >> how deep >>> into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. >> >> I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. >> >> First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. I'm >> not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can come up >> with >> >> better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. >> >> IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard >> T105 >> type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 >> Wh/mi. >> Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. >> >> Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) == >> >> 438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release seems >> to suggest). >> >> This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating it'll >> only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun directly >> overhead. >> At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert so >> I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate that the >> panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine (including >> dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far off. >> >> So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per >> year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy >> required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car >> claim, but surprisingly close. >> >> But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any >> time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade >> of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people >> deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot >> summer day in Florida? >> >> Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it on >> a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around it, it >> will gain less solar energy. >> >> So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other >> vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on >> where and how she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll probably >> yield more bragging rights than range. >> >> What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park >> mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the battery >> when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery cycle life a >> bit. >> Calculating >> whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the cost of the >> PV panel will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) >> >> FWIW, in looking for info on this I ran across several dealers offering >> >> aftermarket PV panel options for golf cars. One claimed a (peak) >> output of >> 220 watts. The price was $1450. >> >> Is it worth it? I see 12v 50w generic PV panels on Ebay for around >> $100 >> each. Five of them would give you peak 250W into a charge controller. >> >> Speaking of which, I see 48v, 30-45 amp charge controllers on Ebay at >> prices from $160 to $260. >> >> The dealer I mentioned above also provide a roof frame and struts. >> What do >> you think that's worth, maybe $150? So they're making around $700 on >> each >> kit. That's a 100% return on the parts cost. Not too shabby. >> >> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >> EVDL Administrator >> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL >> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. >> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from t
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On Sep 22, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the future > since it displaces X amount of coal burning. If that's your goal, _far_ better to put the panels on your rooftop and backfeed into the grid -- assuming, of course, your utility provides a reasonable variation on the net metering theme. If not...I'll bet a cup of coffee that stationary panels going to a set of batteries used as a dump pack for the golf cart would still financially outperform the roof-mounted option. You can use cheaper panels that get maximum insolation, and the only concern for the dump pack is total lifetime cost per kWh in and out -- weight or volume or similar concerns are irrelevant. A significant fraction of the electric vehicles on the road are already solar powered; EV owners are statistically much more likely to have rooftop solar generation than others. Except as a gimmick or an engineering challenge or in unreal fringe cases (extraterrestrial planetary exploration), carting the panels around with you is the most over-the-top wasteful way to get to a "green" car. It's pure conspicuous consumerism --which is perfectly fine if you can afford and appreciate the luxury...just don't pretend that it's saving the planet or that it makes good financial sense. b& -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150922/3cb4bc1a/attachment.pgp> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
> Sounds like yearly payback is somewhere between $10.00 and $40.00. > Sounds kind of small for an investment of more than $1000. That's 1% to 4%. Better than most banks. And FAR better for the future since it displaces X amount of coal burning. So if it is equal or better than most other investments, AND it is definitely better than using coal electricity for ALL of us, then many would jump at the chance. Bob On September 22, 2015 7:19:43 AM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: >On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: > >> ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable >> feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? > >Much of the answer is right in the story: > >> As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total >energy >> required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That >reduces >> the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may >vary >> depending on area and usage. >> >> By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit >how deep >> into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. > >I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. > >First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. I'm >not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can come up >with > >better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. > >IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard >T105 >type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 >Wh/mi. >Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. > >Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) == > >438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release seems >to suggest). > >This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating it'll >only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun directly >overhead. >At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert so >I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate that the >panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine (including >dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far off. > >So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per >year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy >required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car >claim, but surprisingly close. > >But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any >time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade >of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people >deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot >summer day in Florida? > >Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it on >a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around it, it >will gain less solar energy. > >So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other >vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on >where and how she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll probably >yield more bragging rights than range. > >What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park >mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the battery >when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery cycle life a >bit. >Calculating >whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the cost of the >PV panel will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) > >FWIW, in looking for info on this I ran across several dealers offering > >aftermarket PV panel options for golf cars. One claimed a (peak) >output of >220 watts. The price was $1450. > >Is it worth it? I see 12v 50w generic PV panels on Ebay for around >$100 >each. Five of them would give you peak 250W into a charge controller. > >Speaking of which, I see 48v, 30-45 amp charge controllers on Ebay at >prices from $160 to $260. > >The dealer I mentioned above also provide a roof frame and struts. >What do >you think that's worth, maybe $150? So they're making around $700 on >each >kit. That's a 100% return on the parts cost. Not too shabby. > >David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >EVDL Administrator > >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL >Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >= = = = = = = = = = = = = >Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. >To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the >webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > >___ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag >racing at NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUB
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
Let me take the math another direction. It looks like David calculated a net gain of about 84,000 Wh per year. Let's round that up to 100,000 Wh per year. That is 100 kWh. Assuming electricity costs somewhere between $0.10 and $0.40 per kWh. Sounds like yearly payback is somewhere between $10.00 and $40.00. Sounds kind of small for an investment of more than $1000. Mike On September 22, 2015 7:19:43 AM MDT, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: >On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: > >> ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable >> feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? > >Much of the answer is right in the story: > >> As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total >energy >> required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That >reduces >> the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may >vary >> depending on area and usage. >> >> By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit >how deep >> into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. > >I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. > >First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. I'm >not >an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can come up with > >better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. > >IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard >T105 >type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 >Wh/mi. >Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. > >Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) == > >438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release seems >to >suggest). > >This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating it'll >only >apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun directly >overhead. >At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert so >I >don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate that the >panel >will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine (including dawn >and >dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far off. > >So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per >year in >West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy required >to >drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car claim, but >surprisingly close. > >But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any >time >the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade of a >building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people >deliberately >park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot summer day in >Florida? > >Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it on >a >tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around it, it >will >gain less solar energy. > >So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other >vehicle >option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on where and >how >she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll probably yield more >bragging >rights than range. > >What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park >mostly >in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the battery when >the car >isn't being driven. That'll improve battery cycle life a bit. >Calculating >whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the cost of the >PV >panel will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) > >FWIW, in looking for info on this I ran across several dealers offering > >aftermarket PV panel options for golf cars. One claimed a (peak) >output of >220 watts. The price was $1450. > >Is it worth it? I see 12v 50w generic PV panels on Ebay for around >$100 >each. Five of them would give you peak 250W into a charge controller. > >Speaking of which, I see 48v, 30-45 amp charge controllers on Ebay at >prices from $160 to $260. > >The dealer I mentioned above also provide a roof frame and struts. >What do >you think that's worth, maybe $150? So they're making around $700 on >each >kit. That's a 100% return on the parts cost. Not too shabby. > >David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >EVDL Administrator > >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not >reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my >email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > >___ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
Agreee. Simply do the math for your application. Then compare the value of the charge to your cost. Done. Of course, everyone's value may be different. I drive around with $2000 worth of solar panels (200W) on the roof of my EV, just to make it more visibily obvious. Gets the conversations going... The energy gained (15 cents) per day is trivial, but the conversations with unbelievers is priceless. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jay Summet via EV Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 10:31 AM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it? On 09/22/2015 09:19 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: > >> ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable >> feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? > What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park > mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the battery > when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery cycle life a > bit. Calculating whether the resulting battery cost savings will > offset the cost of the PV panel will be left as an exercise for the > reader. ;-) On the other hand, if you only use your golf cart lightly only on the weekends, it may be able to recharge it the rest of the week. Jay ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On 09/22/2015 09:19 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the battery when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery cycle life a bit. Calculating whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the cost of the PV panel will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) On the other hand, if you only use your golf cart lightly only on the weekends, it may be able to recharge it the rest of the week. Jay ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
I think it depends on why you want it. If you are altruistic and want to cut your grid usage, then it helps. If you think you'll get more range out of a charge, then apply David's calculations to the amount of Wh you'll get while on the course. Probably just a few percent more range. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Sent: 22-Sep-15 6:19:43 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it? On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? Much of the answer is right in the story: As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total energy required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That reduces the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may vary depending on area and usage. By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit how deep into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. I'm not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can come up with better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard T105 type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 Wh/mi. Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) == 438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release seems to suggest). This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating it'll only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun directly overhead. At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert so I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate that the panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine (including dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far off. So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car claim, but surprisingly close. But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot summer day in Florida? Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it on a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around it, it will gain less solar energy. So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on where and how she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll probably yield more bragging rights than range. What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the battery when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery cycle life a bit. Calculating whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the cost of the PV panel will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) FWIW, in looking for info on this I ran across several dealers offering aftermarket PV panel options for golf cars. One claimed a (peak) output of 220 watts. The price was $1450. Is it worth it? I see 12v 50w generic PV panels on Ebay for around $100 each. Five of them would give you peak 250W into a charge controller. Speaking of which, I see 48v, 30-45 amp charge controllers on Ebay at prices from $160 to $260. The dealer I mentioned above also provide a roof frame and struts. What do you think that's worth, maybe $150? So they're making around $700 on each kit. That's a 100% return on the parts cost. Not too shabby. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/inde
Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
On 22 Sep 2015 at 3:50, brucedp5 via EV wrote: > ? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable > feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ? Much of the answer is right in the story: > As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total energy > required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That reduces > the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may vary > depending on area and usage. > > By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit how deep > into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use. I suspect this is a best-case estimate. Let's run some numbers. First let me warn you that there's a fair bit of hand-waving here. I'm not an expert in these matters. If you're a PV expert and can come up with better numbers than mine, by all means please do so. IIRC a typical golf car range is around 40-50 miles. Using standard T105 type batteries this amounts to an energy usage of between 126 and 158 Wh/mi. Let's call it 150 Wh/mi for convenience. Driving 8 miles per day will require 1200 WH per day or (1200 * 365) == 438000 Wh/year if you drive the car every day (as the PR release seems to suggest). This panel can produce 100 watts, but if that's a typical rating it'll only apply when the golf car is parked in the sun with the sun directly overhead. At other times the output will be lower, but I'm not a solar expert so I don't know by how much. I'll take a wild guess and estimate that the panel will average 30 watts over an average day's sunshine (including dawn and dusk). Someone please correct me if that's too far off. So that's 30W * 12h == 360 Wh/day * 234 days (average sunny days per year in West Palm Beach) == 84240 Wh/year. This is 19% of the energy required to drive 8 miles per day, about a third less than Club Car claim, but surprisingly close. But even my 19% estimate assumes the golf car will be in the sun any time the sun is shining. If you park it in a garage, or in the shade of a building or tree, it gains little or nothing. How many people deliberately park their cars (golf or otherwise) in the sun on a hot summer day in Florida? Other factors will affect solar gain. For example, if you drive it on a tree lined street, or a city street with tall buildings around it, it will gain less solar energy. So, is this just a "feel-good add-on"? Well ... as with any other vehicle option, how much a given user gains from this one depends on where and how she drives. But for most users, I'd say it'll probably yield more bragging rights than range. What it MIGHT do that's potentially at least as useful -- IF you park mostly in the sun --- is dribble a little charge back into the battery when the car isn't being driven. That'll improve battery cycle life a bit. Calculating whether the resulting battery cost savings will offset the cost of the PV panel will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) FWIW, in looking for info on this I ran across several dealers offering aftermarket PV panel options for golf cars. One claimed a (peak) output of 220 watts. The price was $1450. Is it worth it? I see 12v 50w generic PV panels on Ebay for around $100 each. Five of them would give you peak 250W into a charge controller. Speaking of which, I see 48v, 30-45 amp charge controllers on Ebay at prices from $160 to $260. The dealer I mentioned above also provide a roof frame and struts. What do you think that's worth, maybe $150? So they're making around $700 on each kit. That's a 100% return on the parts cost. Not too shabby. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: Jamie Lee Curtis’ Tesla-S cranks up to 11, ‘That’s crazy’ (v)
http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2015/09/21/jamie-lee-curtis-scream-queens-christopher-guest-spinal-tap-tesla-elon-musk/
Jamie Lee Curtis’ Tesla tale definitely goes to 11
By Bill Keveney September 21, 2015
[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o&feature=youtu.be
These go to 11.mpg
pmw8000 Nov 11, 2011
Spinal Tap's Nigel Tufnel explains how his band's amplifiers go to eleven,
"When you need that extra push over the cliff..."
image
https://usatlife.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/christopher-guest-spinal-tap.jpg
This guitarist can rock you. (Metro Goldwyn Mayer)
tweets (dated)
Dana Brunetti@DanaBrunetti
Fun fact that I discovered on my @TeslaMotors Model S this weekend: the
radio and fan both go to 11... @elonmusk a Spinal Tap fan?
Elon Musk@elonmusk
@DanaBrunetti Well, you see, by making it go to 11, that makes it louder
than loud :)
1:29 PM - 14 May 2013
]
Jamie Lee Curtis has signed on for lots of comedy and wild twists in Ryan
Murphy’s Scream Queens (Fox, Tuesday, 8 p.m. ET/PT), but she has her own
funny, kind-of-crazy story about picking up a Tesla with her husband,
actor-director Christopher Guest.
When she and Guest, famed for such films as This is Spinal Tap, Best in Show
and Waiting for Guffman, arrived at the Tesla dealer, a representative from
the high-end, electric-car manufacturer was there to show them all the
functions of the vehicle Curtis was buying ...
“The guy was taking us through the controls of the car. And, at one
point, he said, ‘Turn up the volume control.’ ” She turned it up but “he
said, ‘No, no, no. Make it go louder.’ So, I went up and – it goes to 11,”
she said, echoing Nigel Tufnel, the Spinal Tap guitarist played by Guest in
the 1984 film.
In the movie, Nigel shows off amplifier knobs that go to 11 to rockumentary
filmmaker Marty DiBergi (Rob Reiner), who notes that most amps go to 10.
“Well, it’s one louder, isn’t it?” an utterly logical Nigel says.
“Why don’t you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number and make
that a little louder?”
An utterly blinkered Nigel can only reply, “These go to 11.”
The Tesla volume revelation stopped Curtis cold.
“I said to the guy, ‘The volume control goes to 11?’ He said, ‘Yes. (CEO
Elon) Musk is a fan of a certain movie,’ ” she remembers. “So, Chris is
sitting in the car and the guy doesn’t know it’s Chris. And I looked over to
Chris and I was like, ‘Really? That’s crazy.’ ”
Tesla confirms that the sound system in its Model S goes to 11 and Musk
acknowledged the connection to the cult film classic in a 2013 tweet
[above].
Guest presumable was impressed, at least by the vehicle, because he ordered
his own Tesla. Wonder how Stonehenge and Hell Hole sound cranked up to 11 in
that car?
[© usatoday.com]
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http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/gujarat-to-run-battery-operated-buses-between-ahmedabad-and-gandhinagar-115090700819_1.html
Gujarat Electric buses between Ahmedabad.in and Gandhinagar.in
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Ahmedabad,+Gujarat,+India/Gujarat,+India
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/09/14/there-are-now-more-places-to-charge-your-electric-vehicle-in-maryland-for-free/
Maryland adds 17 L2 EVSE
+
EVLN: Smart EV gen2 with a Renault e-motor & a new look
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[EVDL] EVLN: Smart ED gen2 with a Renault e-motor & a new look
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/renault-to-supply-motors-for-daimlers-electric-smart-fortwo-mini/articleshow/48986108.cms
Renault to supply motors for Daimler's electric Smart fortwo mini
By Reuters | 16 Sep, 2015
[image
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/thumb/msid-48986151,width-900,resizemode-4/.jpg
Renault will supply motors for electric versions of Daimler's Smart city
cars under their deepening five-year-old alliance
]
FRANKFURT: Renault will supply motors for electric versions of Daimler's
Smart city cars under their deepening five-year-old alliance, the carmakers
said on Wednesday.
The motors, manufactured at Renault's Cleon plant, will equip
battery-powered versions of the Smart fortwo mini made at the Daimler's
Hambach facility in eastern France as well as its larger forfour model,
assembled by the French carmaker in Slovenia alongside the Renault Twingo.
The electric Smart models will go on sale in 2016, the companies said at the
Frankfurt auto show.
[© 2015 Bennett, Coleman]
http://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/cooperation-daimler-renault-nissan-alliance-accelerates-strengthens-2015/
Cooperation of Daimler and Renault-Nissan Alliance accelerates, strengthens
in 2015
September 16, 2015 ...
- EV versions of new smart fortwo and forfour to be powered by Renault
electric motors ...
- EV versions of the new smart fortwo and forfour: These all-new city cars
have been on the market for nearly a year; they and the Renault Twingo were
the first vehicles built on a common platform between Daimler and the
Alliance. Customer reaction on all three models has been highly positive. As
announced by the two executives, EV versions of the smart fortwo and forfour
will go on sale in late 2016. Both vehicles will be fitted with an electric
motor produced by Renault’s Cléon plant in France, the same one used in the
Renault ZOE. The battery of the new smart electric drive will be produced by
the Daimler subsidiary, “Deutsche ACCUmotive,” in Kamenz, Germany ...
[© automotive world]
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http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/gujarat-to-run-battery-operated-buses-between-ahmedabad-and-gandhinagar-115090700819_1.html
Gujarat Electric buses between Ahmedabad.in and Gandhinagar.in
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Ahmedabad,+Gujarat,+India/Gujarat,+India
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/09/14/there-are-now-more-places-to-charge-your-electric-vehicle-in-maryland-for-free/
Maryland adds 17 L2 EVSE
+
EVLN: Jamie Lee Curtis’ Tesla EV cranks up to 11> !That’s crazy! (v)
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[EVDL] EVLN: Nissan sez EVs are not just for eco-warriors> new sales tactics
http://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/electric-cars-no-longer-just-for-green-eco-warriors-says-nissan-as-new-longer-range-leaf-launched/95067
Electric cars ‘no longer just for green eco-warriors’, says Nissan as new,
longer-range Leaf launched
September 16, 2015 Dave Brown
[images
http://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/New-Leaf-1.jpg
http://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/New-Leaf-2.jpg
The new Nissan Leaf, which has a longer range
]
THE days when ownership of electric cars was restricted to ‘green
eco-warriors’ are well and truly behind us, according to Nissan marketing
director Chris Marsh.
And a new, beefed-up Nissan Leaf, featuring a new 30kW battery that
increases the car’s range from 124 miles to 155 miles, will help to broaden
their appeal still further, he says.
Available on Leaf Acenta and Tekna trim grades, the new battery is the same
size as the existing 24kW unit with a modest 21kg increase in weight.
The Leaf is the UK’s best-selling pure EV by a country mile, and more and
more people are being attracted to the economic and environmental benefits
of owning one.
Speaking exclusively to Car Dealer at the Frankfurt International Motor
Show, Marsh said: ‘There’s been a massive change in the marketplace and an
increase in familiarisation with EV and the infrastructure around it.
‘You’re also seeing, alongside us, a lot of new market entrants coming in.
That’s a great thing because as that happens consumers increasingly see
electric cars as something which is normal.’
There’s no doubt that dealers too have been on a pretty big learning curve
with regard to Leaf.
Nissan Motor (GB) managing director James Wright told us: ‘It was quite
tough to begin with but I think everybody’s on board with it now. Once the
dealers understood they could sell it, they started to sell it.
‘In the early days, dealers were meeting people who knew far more about the
car than they did, who were asking them questions that they couldn’t answer.
These days people are interested in how much it’s going to cost them to run
it and how it works in real life.’
Also looking back to those early days, Marsh added: ‘Certainly, we knew that
there would be those who, from a green perspective, would want the car, but
I think we underestimated the level of interest from those with an
engineering and technology background who wanted to understand how the
vehicle worked.
‘We’re through that now, we’re five years down the line. I think the dealer
knows now that if someone comes in and they’re maybe thinking about buying a
Qashqai, they should talk to them about a Leaf. It’s not so different and I
think that was quite a big mental jump for a number of dealers, that you
don’t treat a potential Qashqai deal and a Leaf deal as two separate strata
of opportunity.
‘The days when it was only the green eco-warriors who buy electric have gone
and now the vehicle is a sensible proposition for a significant proportion
of the car-buying public.’
Sales of the model year 2016 Nissan Leaf 30kW will begin in the UK in
December. Priced from £24,490 for the Acenta trim, the Leaf 30kW will be
available for just £1,600 more than the equivalent Leaf with a 24kW battery.
[© cardealermagazine.co.uk]
http://insideevs.com/renault-sold-30400-zoe-end-august/
Renault Sold Over 30400 ZOE Through August 2015
[20150921] Sales of Renault electric cars (like most plug-ins in Europe)
are growing almost every month, year-over-year ...
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R_6520-750x497.jpg
http://www.torquenews.com/3618/electric-vehicle-owners-why-did-you-get-your-ev
Why did Electric Vehicle Owners get their EV?
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[EVDL] EVLN: Xtracycle Edgerunner 10e> the eBicycle that's better than a PU truck
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/pickup-truck-electric-bikes-may-better-car/ THE PICKUP TRUCK OF ELECTRIC BIKES MAY BE BETTER THAN A CAR DAVID PIERCE. DAVID PIERCE 09.15.15 [images http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/10E_small_freight__77944.1428017663.920.600.jpg http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/10E_small_freight__77944.1428017663.920.600-150x150-e1442272282518.jpg http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2F10E_small_freight__77944.1428017663.920.600-929x550.jpg ] NEW TO SAN Francisco, I discovered quickly that having a car is terrible, but not as terrible as relying on the city’s horrific public transportation or spending the few dollars I have left after rent on surge-priced Ubers. For me, and for an increasing number of people in cities all over the world, the answer is a bicycle. 60 percent more people commute to work on a bike now than a decade ago, and cycling infrastructure has grown as cities have become too congested to handle more cars. Bikes rule, cars drool. For a couple of weeks this summer, I sat in the seat of a bike called the Xtracycle Edgerunner 10e. This is no ordinary bike. This $5,750 beast is a longtail, one in a burgeoning breed of giant, high-tech cargo bikes. The 10e is capable of carrying up to 400 pounds’ worth of people, groceries, and whatever else you can think to throw in its many compartments. It comes with an electric motor, too, which makes it far easier to carry that huge load. This is the Ford F150 of bicycles, sold on its towing capacity—or maybe the Subaru Outback, the family-friendly car you can count on. Whatever it is, it’s huge. 85 inches long and more than 50 pounds even before you load in the groceries, the Edgerunner 10e is not comfortably hoisted upon your shoulder as you traipse up the stairs to your front door. (Luckily, it did—barely—fit in the WIRED office elevator.) It’s made of a super-strong steel alloy called chromoly steel, which is popular in bike-building but also used in making everything from firearms to car roll cages. The bike is sturdy and strong, right down to the double-barrelled kickstand. But it’s a little like carrying your bike, plus another bike attached to it. It’s meant to be made even heavier, too. Riding the Edgerunner without carrying anything on its racks or in its bags is like buying that F150 and driving it only to church on Sundays. There’s a long seat and two bars on the bike’s long rear, above the back tire; another rack sits on each side. The cargo setup is ridiculously versatile: Xtracycle began by selling add-ons to existing bikes that made them more carrying-capable, and still offers a huge line of accessories for carrying stuff. Even with the default setup, you can dump your wetsuit and knick-knacks things into the sealable bags, use the straps to secure your surfboard, and secure your surfing partner in the center seat. (It’s actually reasonably comfortable, according to the two WIRED fellows I toured around San Francisco’s South Park.) On the front, the 10e has another flat rack for the smaller stuff. The rack stays in place even as you turn the handlebars, which takes a little getting used to—not seeing the whole front turn is disconcerting at first. Despite all that, though, it rides remarkably like a regular bike. I’m no expert, certainly, but I was comfortable riding the Edgerunner 10e in about 30 seconds. The smaller, enclosed 20-inch wheel on the back sits low enough to steady your load, and the whole bike is designed with its size in mind. It takes an extra push or two to get all that weight in motion, but once you’re going it’s dead easy. Of course, that’s because you get a little extra help too. The Edgerunner 10e has a Bosch Performance electric motor helping you spin the tires. Its battery, rated to last anywhere from 20 to 100 miles depending on how hard you make it work, sits where your water bottle might otherwise go. It’s a high-end, top-of-the-line setup, but it doesn’t do all the work for you. It just…helps. There are four different motor modes in addition to the bike’s 10 speeds, which add somewhere between 50 and 275 percent more power to every one of your pedal strokes. You keep a steady pace, pedaling fast but not furiously, and ratchet the assistance up and down depending on how much help you need. The motor’s theoretically capable of going along at 20 miles per hour, but if you get a decent downhill that number looks a lot more like 30. I never rode without at least a little assistance—the lower mode, called Eco, makes riding alone feel like you’re heading downhill with the wind at your back. But with two passengers on board, I locked into the highest mode, Turbo, and still had to huff and puff a little when I hit a hill. But when I finally put the bike through its paces and loaded a keg (filled with water, because I’m not a beer-wasting monster) into the its rear compartment, no amount of motor help could save me. The video above shows
[EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it worth it?
? Is this a useful product worthy of the co$t, or is it a profitable
feel-good add-on for bragging-rights ?
http://americancityandcounty.com/green/panels-deliver-solar-power-vehicle-lineup-related-video
Panels deliver solar power in vehicle lineup (with related video)
Sep 21, 2015
[image
http://americancityandcounty.com/site-files/americancityandcounty.com/files/imagecache/large_img/uploads/2015/09/clubcarsolardriveprecedentfoverheadlgjpg.jpeg
]
The panels reduce emissions, cut charging costs and increase range on
several Club Car vehicle models. They also reduce the need for
grid-generated energy.
The firm’s 100-watt Solar Drive Charging Panel Assembly enables owners of
48-volt electric Club Car Precedent golf cars, Carryall utility vehicles and
Villager low-speed vehicle (LSVs) to capture, store and use solar power. The
panels are suited for the Augusta, Ga.-based Club Car’s golf, consumer and
commercial models.
As a yearly average, the system generates 29 percent of the total energy
required to drive eight miles per day in West Palm Beach, Fla. That reduces
the energy needed to recharge the battery by 29 percent. Results may vary
depending on area and usage.
By continually transferring energy to the batteries, the panels limit how
deep into the battery reserve a vehicle must go during a typical use.
The panels are based on technology developed for the U.S. Marine Corps,
which uses it to run communications equipment in the Middle East. The panels
are made in the U.S. of a lightweight, impact-resistant, photo-voltaic
material with a Teflon-like coating that protects the cells.
Measuring 40 by 26 inches, the panels fit snuggly on the canopies or cabs of
Club Car vehicles. They weigh less than six pounds and are just 0.20 inches
thick.
Traditional solar panels are made in China, framed in tempered glass and
weigh approximately 24 pounds, creating drag on the vehicle and limiting the
benefits. What’s more, service and warranty issues can be a big problem with
panels made abroad, according to the company.
The panels are designed with power-harvesting technology that optimizes
solar power during various weather conditions and rapidly converts it into
electricity to recharge the batteries and power vehicles. The system also
features an intelligent microprocessor that allows a high rate of charge and
reduces charge time, without overheating.
The panels come complete with a controller, connector to the vehicle’s power
supply, all necessary hardware and installation instructions. They can be
user- or dealer-installed in about 20 minutes.
In addition to the standard 100-watt panel for the above-mentioned vehicles,
Club Car can configure solar panels for other types of vehicles through its
Custom Solutions Department.
Club Car vehicles and accessories are sold through Authorized Club Car
Dealers [
http://www.clubcardealer.com/
].
[© americancityandcounty.com]
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